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FreeBSD Status Report March-April 2004

Hemos posted more than 10 years ago | from the development-continues dept.

Operating Systems 63

Anonymous Coward writes "The FreeBSD project has posted a new status report for March and April of 2004. Work continues on locking down the network stack, ACPI made more great strides, an ARM port appeared in the tree, and the FreeBSD 4.10 release cycle wrapped up."

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An ARM port eh? (3, Insightful)

MrIrwin (761231) | more than 10 years ago | (#9172017)

x86 life looks ever more limited!

Re:An ARM port eh? (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9172392)

Considering the One-chip SMP Multiprocessor Core [slashdot.org] , things could get very nice.

Re:An ARM port eh? (2, Informative)

killjoe (766577) | more than 10 years ago | (#9180953)

Where is the PPC port? I am amazed that I can't install freebsd on my mac.

Re:An ARM port eh? (1)

MrIrwin (761231) | more than 10 years ago | (#9180994)

I thought MACS allready came with a BSD derived OS?

Re:An ARM port eh? (1)

killjoe (766577) | more than 10 years ago | (#9184189)

Yes but it's not the same. I miss the ports.

PowerPC port (3, Informative)

IRLQBall (681453) | more than 10 years ago | (#9181488)

Where is the PPC port? I am amazed that I can't install freebsd on my mac.


The current status of the FreeBSD on PowerPC is here [freebsd.org]

Short version: It's a Tier 2 [freebsd.org] architecture which means it's not quite there yet. According to the project page it's "on the verge of booting to single-user mode".

Re:PowerPC port (-1, Flamebait)

killjoe (766577) | more than 10 years ago | (#9184123)

"According to the project page it's "on the verge of booting to single-user mode"."

Well La Di Fucking Da.

Don't you find it odd that Apple Mac OS X is based on freebsd but freebsd does not run on it? I do.

Re:PowerPC port (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9187094)

OS X is based on Next's Unix which was one of the hybrid Mach/Unix jobs from the early/mid 90s. The only real difference was that Next used BSD instead of a sysV Unix. What happens is OS X is actually a Mach microkernel with several layers on top of it. The BSD networking code and other parts of the kernel were made to run on top of Mach to give it a Unix layer that a lot of other things build on. This unix layer is augmented by a freebsd 5.1 userland (at least that's what I have on my new powerbook).

Re:PowerPC port (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9224754)

Actually, if you visit the mailing list archives, they're probably a lot further along than that. The developers working on porting it are a bit lazy in updating their status page.

Re:An ARM port eh? (1)

evilviper (135110) | more than 10 years ago | (#9232663)

Is there some reason you have to have FreeBSD on your PPC, and you can't possibly use NetBSD/OpenBSD?

They aren't the same as FreeBSD, of course, but the differences are quite small.

Re:An ARM port eh? (1)

Octorian (14086) | more than 10 years ago | (#9257753)

Actually, the differences are quite small between NetBSD and OpenBSD because Open is a fork of Net. Free, however, actually has a very different feel to it. Of course they all have a lot of similarities at the source level, and you'll see NetBSD banners all over FreeBSD kernel source files.

Re:An ARM port eh? (1)

evilviper (135110) | more than 10 years ago | (#9262127)

I've used all three and I see very equal differences between them, even in the userland.

OpenBSD has split from NetBSD, but it was quite a long time ago, and much has changed since then. I find that all three are about equally different from one-another, on the user level, administrative level, and at the source-code level.

A matter of opinion of course...

*BSD Anthem: Last Disk (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9172200)

"Last Disk" [to the tune of Last Kiss by pearl jam]

Oh where, oh where is my BSD?
I just loaded it yesterday.
It's gone to heaven, so I've got to be good,
So I can see the OS when I leave this world.

I'd started to load it in my roommate's Dell,
the hard drive was taking it pretty well.
During the load, it crashed the heads,
the distro was stalled, *BSD was dead.
I couldn't stop, so I yanked the cord.
I'll never forget, the sound , oh Lord--
the screamin' drives, the speaker's blast,
the painful scream that I-- heard last.

Oh where, oh where is my *BSD?
That load took it away from me.
It's gone to heaven, so I've got to be good,
So I can see *BSD when I leave this world.

When I woke up, the sparks were pourin down.
There were admins standin all around.
Some burned-out chips had fallen on the tiles,
but somehow I found my disc of files.
I lifted the CD, the devil winked and said,
"Load me darlin just a little while."
I held it close, I kissed the label--our last kiss.
I found the love that i knew i had missed
well now it's gone, even though I loaded it right
I lost my *BSD and the Dell-- that night.

Oh where, oh where is my *BSD?
I tried to load it yesterday.
It's gone to heaven so I've got to be good,
So I can see *BSD when I leave this world.

When I next went to Slashdot, where so many had trolled.
Any so many times "BSD's Dead!" was told.
Tears fallin' on the keyboard, I checked "Anonymous"
and I eulogized *BSD, in memory, of us....

When I logged on next, my post was modded down.
In my heartbreak and sorrow, treated like a clown....
No matter what the mods do, it's in my heart and head
We'll always know "*BSD IS DEAD!"

Oh where, oh where is my *BSD?
I tried to load it yesterday.
It's gone to heaven so I've got to be good,
So I can see *BSD when I leave this world.

Re:*BSD Anthem: Last Disk (0, Offtopic)

p00p at instable.net (773687) | more than 10 years ago | (#9263433)

All I can say is "That's brilliant!"

Interesting note from the SMPng status report.. (2, Interesting)

harikiri (211017) | more than 10 years ago | (#9172365)

From here [freebsd.org] :

Several folks continue to work on the locking the network stack as noted elsewhere in this report. Outside of the network stack, the following items were worked on during the March and April time frame. Giant was pushed down in the fork, exit, and wait system calls as far as possible.
Alan Cox (alc@) continues to lock the VM subsystem and push down Giant where appropriate.

Same Alan Cox of Linux kernel hacking fame? Woot! We've attracted him to the dark side... ;)

Re:Interesting note from the SMPng status report.. (2, Informative)

Everlone (612308) | more than 10 years ago | (#9172592)

Nope, this is a different Alan Cox.

Something tells me I once saw an FAQ list once that involved this same question but I could be wrong ;-)

Re:Interesting note from the SMPng status report.. (2, Funny)

R.Caley (126968) | more than 10 years ago | (#9174279)

Nope, this is a different Alan Cox.

Something else reimplemented to avoid the evil GPL?

Re:Interesting note from the SMPng status report.. (5, Funny)

apocamok (196093) | more than 10 years ago | (#9175641)

It's probably like the guy from Fight Club, he's working on Linux during the day, and unconsciously committing FreeBSD patches during the night.

Re:Interesting note from the SMPng status report.. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9177898)

It is official; Netcraft confirms: *BSD is dying

One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered *BSD community when IDC confirmed that *BSD market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of a recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last [samag.com] in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.

You don't need to be a Kreskin [amdest.com] to predict *BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood.

FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time FreeBSD developers Jordan Hubbard and Mike Smith only serve to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: FreeBSD is dying.

Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.

OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.

Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.

All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS dilettante dabblers. *BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, *BSD is dead.

Fact: *BSD is dying

Re:Interesting note from the SMPng status report.. (3, Funny)

craig2787 (533589) | more than 10 years ago | (#9178888)

1st RULE: You do not talk about FREEBSD PATCHES.
2nd RULE: You DO NOT talk about FREEBSD PATCHES.
3rd RULE: If the code says "stop" or goes coredump, the commit bit is over.
4th RULE: Only two comitters to a patch.
5th RULE: One patch at a time.
6th RULE: No GPL, no adware.
7th RULE: Commits will go on as long as they have to.
8th RULE: If this is your first night at FREEBSD.ORG, you HAVE to PATCH.

Re:Interesting note from the SMPng status report.. (5, Informative)

coolfruit (743964) | more than 10 years ago | (#9176047)

Well, These are two different people. Alan L. Cox is a FreeBSD commiter. Here is his homepage : http://www.cs.rice.edu/~alc/

Re:Interesting note from the SMPng status report.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9178216)

No, different guy.

Dead (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9172370)

*BSD, that is.

There are only two kinds of BSD story replies (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9172550)

There are only two kinds of responses to *BSD news items: those that have been modded "-1", and "0" ranked items that the moderators have not yet modded down to "-1".

Mirror, in case it gets Slashdotted (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9176337)

May 2003 beep
June 2003 beep
July 2003 badump
August 2003 beep
September 2003 beep
October 2003 "Clear"
November 2003 badump
December 2003 badump
January 2004 beep
February 2004 beep
March 2004 beeeeeeep
April 2004 "Time of Death?"

Best quote from article: (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9176930)

"I was writing a operating system on the PC, and it was, like, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep," says Nate Lawson, FreeBSD developer. "And then, like, half of my OS was dead. And I was, like heh. It devoured my OS. It was a really good OS."

Re:Mirror, in case it gets Slashdotted (-1, Troll)

satanami69 (209636) | more than 10 years ago | (#9179654)

I'm so proud. I made this troll almost a year ago. Change all the years and this is it. Thanks for the support.

Developer laments: What Killed FreeBSD (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9177085)

The End of FreeBSD

[ed. note: in the following text, former FreeBSD developer Mike Smith gives his reasons for abandoning FreeBSD]

When I stood for election to the FreeBSD core team nearly two years ago, many of you will recall that it was after a long series of debates during which I maintained that too much organisation, too many rules and too much formality would be a bad thing for the project.

Today, as I read the latest discussions on the future of the FreeBSD project, I see the same problem; a few new faces and many of the old going over the same tired arguments and suggesting variations on the same worthless schemes. Frankly I'm sick of it.

FreeBSD used to be fun. It used to be about doing things the right way. It used to be something that you could sink your teeth into when the mundane chores of programming for a living got you down. It was something cool and exciting; a way to spend your spare time on an endeavour you loved that was at the same time wholesome and worthwhile.

It's not anymore. It's about bylaws and committees and reports and milestones, telling others what to do and doing what you're told. It's about who can rant the longest or shout the loudest or mislead the most people into a bloc in order to legitimise doing what they think is best. Individuals notwithstanding, the project as a whole has lost track of where it's going, and has instead become obsessed with process and mechanics.

So I'm leaving core. I don't want to feel like I should be "doing something" about a project that has lost interest in having something done for it. I don't have the energy to fight what has clearly become a losing battle; I have a life to live and a job to keep, and I won't achieve any of the goals I personally consider worthwhile if I remain obligated to care for the project.

Discussion

I'm sure that I've offended some people already; I'm sure that by the time I'm done here, I'll have offended more. If you feel a need to play to the crowd in your replies rather than make a sincere effort to address the problems I'm discussing here, please do us the courtesy of playing your politics openly.

From a technical perspective, the project faces a set of challenges that significantly outstrips our ability to deliver. Some of the resources that we need to address these challenges are tied up in the fruitless metadiscussions that have raged since we made the mistake of electing officers. Others have left in disgust, or been driven out by the culture of abuse and distraction that has grown up since then. More may well remain available to recruitment, but while the project is busy infighting our chances for successful outreach are sorely diminished.

There's no simple solution to this. For the project to move forward, one or the other of the warring philosophies must win out; either the project returns to its laid-back roots and gets on with the work, or it transforms into a super-organised engineering project and executes a brilliant plan to deliver what, ultimately, we all know we want.

Whatever path is chosen, whatever balance is struck, the choosing and the striking are the important parts. The current indecision and endless conflict are incompatible with any sort of progress.

Trying to dissect the above is far beyond the scope of any parting shot, no matter how distended. All I can really ask of you all is to let go of the minutiae for a moment and take a look at the big picture. What is the ultimate goal here? How can we get there with as little overhead as possible? How would you like to be treated by your fellow travellers?

Shouts

To the Slashdot "BSD is dying" crowd - big deal. Death is part of the cycle; take a look at your soft, pallid bodies and consider that right this very moment, parts of you are dying. See? It's not so bad.

To the bulk of the FreeBSD committerbase and the developer community at large - keep your eyes on the real goals. It's when you get distracted by the politickers that they sideline you. The tireless work that you perform keeping the system clean and building is what provides the platform for the obsessives and the prima donnas to have their moments in the sun. In the end, we need you all; in order to go forwards we must first avoid going backwards.

To the paranoid conspiracy theorists - yes, I work for Apple too. No, my resignation wasn't on Steve's direct orders, or in any way related to work I'm doing, may do, may not do, or indeed what was in the tea I had at lunchtime today. It's about real problems that the project faces, real problems that the project has brought upon itself. You can't escape them by inventing excuses about outside influence, the problem stems from within.

To the politically obsessed - give it a break, if you can. No, the project isn't a lemonade stand anymore, but it's not a world-spanning corporate juggernaut either and some of the more grandiose visions going around are in need of a solid dose of reality. Keep it simple, stupid.

To the grandstanders, the prima donnas, and anyone that thinks that they can hold the project to ransom for their own agenda - give it a break, if you can. When the current core were elected, we took a conscious stand against vigorous sanctions, and some of you have exploited that. A new core is going to have to decide whether to repeat this mistake or get tough. I hope they learn from our errors.

Future

I started work on FreeBSD because it was fun. If I'm going to continue, it has to be fun again. There are things I still feel obligated to do, and with any luck I'll find the time to meet those obligations.

However I don't feel an obligation to get involved in the political mess the project is in right now. I tried, I burnt out. I don't feel that my efforts were worthwhile. So I won't be standing for election, I won't be shouting from the sidelines, and I probably won't vote in the next round of ballots.

You could say I'm packing up my toys. I'm not going home just yet, but I'm not going to play unless you can work out how to make the project somewhere fun to be again.

= Mike

--

To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. -- Theodore Roosevelt

Misplaced effort (-1, Flamebait)

c0d3h4x0r (604141) | more than 10 years ago | (#9177765)

Meanwhile, it looks like they still haven't fixed the IDE disk geometry problems that have created problems for FreeBSD users worldwide for years:

FreeBSD bug search results [freebsd.org]

Just another example of how the open-source community has its priorities all wrong. Getting the OS to install smoothly should be a top priority. This issue should have been resolved years ago.

Re:Misplaced effort (5, Informative)

shlong (121504) | more than 10 years ago | (#9179274)

Most of the bugs in your list are marked closed, and one is for a package that has nothing to do with disks or the OS. That leaves two entries that are relevant. Guessing the geometry is a lot harder than it sounds, especially if you already installed Windows or another boot loader and it guessed the geometry differently (as is the case with at least one of the entries in your list). This is a common problem in Linux, too. Windows is 'immune' to it because it'll choose whatever geometry it wants and leave any previously installed OS's stranded.

WHEN WILL YOU LEARN? *BSD IS SO FUCKING DEAD! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9177876)

It is official; Netcraft confirms: *BSD is dying

One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered *BSD community when IDC confirmed that *BSD market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of a recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last [samag.com] in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.

You don't need to be a Kreskin [amdest.com] to predict *BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood.

FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time FreeBSD developers Jordan Hubbard and Mike Smith only serve to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: FreeBSD is dying.

Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.

OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.

Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.

All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS dilettante dbblers. *BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, *BSD is dead.

Fact: *BSD is dying

FreeBSD Status Report March-April 2004: (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9177921)

We are well past rigor mortis as deep down decay is now setting in on this corpse.

Q: What do you call a *BSD developer's convention?
A: A CEMETARY!

It is official; Netcraft confirms: *BSD is dying

One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered *BSD community when IDC confirmed that *BSD market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of a recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last [samag.com] [samag.com] in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.

You don't need to be a Kreskin [amdest.com] [amdest.com] to predict *BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood.

FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time FreeBSD developers Jordan Hubbard and Mike Smith only serve to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: FreeBSD is dying.

Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.

OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.

Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.

All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS dilettante dbblers. *BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, *BSD is dead.

Fact: *BSD is dying

THEY EVEN ADMIT THAT *BSD IS DEAD! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9177957)

"and the FreeBSD 4.10 release cycle wrapped up."

Wrapping it up, eh? SOUNDS LIKE MUMMIFICATION TO ME!!!

It is official; Netcraft confirms: *BSD is dying

One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered *BSD community when IDC confirmed that *BSD market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of a recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last [samag.com] in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.

You don't need to be a Kreskin [amdest.com] to predict *BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood.

FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time FreeBSD developers Jordan Hubbard and Mike Smith only serve to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: FreeBSD is dying.

Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.

OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.

Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.

All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS dilettante dbblers. *BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, *BSD is dead.

Fact: *BSD is dying

PF and ALTQ (5, Interesting)

mikem170 (698970) | more than 10 years ago | (#9179713)

I got into FreeBSD about 6 months ago and have not looked back. I was frustrated with RedHat and heard good things about the BSDs.

I have been tempted to check out OpenBSD, because of the networking. The FreeBSD announcement mentions work being done integrating PF (updates?) and ALTQ (new to FreeBSD?)

I'm working towards a site-to-site VPN deployment (hubs and spokes, of course) and am debating FreeBSD vs. OpenBSD. IPSec, queueing and redundancy (dynamic routing, perhaps DBU, and something like CARP) are requirements. Managability is important. "Room for growth" (transparent proxies, accounting, file/print services) would be icing on the cake.

I figure it all could be made to work either way. Is FreeBSD's IPSec and firewall (IPFW/PF) as solid os OpenBSD? How about queueing? I'm a "seasoned newbee" on BSD... My experience is with the FreeBSD 5.x branch. I figure on diving into OpenBSD someday, it's just that time can be hard to come by.

Any advice out there? Am I giving anything up if I commit to Free vs. Open BSD?

Re:PF and ALTQ (4, Insightful)

agent dero (680753) | more than 10 years ago | (#9180476)

Flip a coin, it doesn't really matter which you choose:

FreeBSD is something i'd put on a critical nfs/http/ftp server or something

OpenBSD is something I'd put on a Pentium 200Mhz box to keep that nfs/http/ftp box safe.

Nothing prevents you from doing either one with either operating system. It's just about preference ;)

NetBSD strenght (0, Troll)

CaptainPinko (753849) | more than 10 years ago | (#9180564)

The one question I always had is when would someone want to use NetBSD except for when they want to t=use *nix on their toaster?

Re:PF and ALTQ (4, Interesting)

ArbitraryConstant (763964) | more than 10 years ago | (#9180485)

OpenBSD will always have the most up to date PF stuff.

What you'll notice with OpenBSD is that you're discouraged from messing with the kernel at all, and ports work better. Theoretically, you may notice it's slower, and you'll probably notice that the software isn't as up to date. Debian-stable should also be in consideration, depending on your needs, but its firewalling capabilities are well behind FreeBSD and OpenBSD.

You're giving something up if you commit to anything period. FreeBSD and OpenBSD have dramatically disjoint sets of stuff they're good at. I've never seen an OS good enough at everything (or even most things) to make it worth commiting to. Not if you can deal with multiple OSes on a day to day basis.

Re:PF and ALTQ (1)

runderwo (609077) | more than 10 years ago | (#9213207)

Debian-stable should also be in consideration, depending on your needs, but its firewalling capabilities are well behind FreeBSD and OpenBSD.
Nice troll. How about an actual comparison?

Re:PF and ALTQ (1)

ArbitraryConstant (763964) | more than 10 years ago | (#9258128)

Firewall Failover [countersiege.com]

"In test environments, we have run up to 4 pfsync+carp hosts (all different architectures: i386, sparc, sparc64, and amd64!), randomly rebooting them. TCP sessions were not interrupted through over two days of such torture testing."

Linux has UCARP, but has no way for the stateful firewall to do transparent failover.

Don't really feel like researching enough detail for a comprehensive summary of the other stuff.

Re:PF and ALTQ (1)

Octorian (14086) | more than 10 years ago | (#9257830)

Personally, I see the different BSDs as all good OSes, but for different purposes...

FreeBSD - Good general purpose server OS, and my 'nix of choice on x86

OpenBSD - Good firewall/network-device OS, runs wonderfully on good hardware (like old SPARCs) Though it can often be behind the ball in places you'd least expect it until you run into them head-on, out of nowhere. (Like when I tried the sparc64 port on my Netra, and it ran slowly, and didn't like more than 2 hme network interfaces)

NetBSD - Tinkerer's OS of choice. Runs on anything, and is easy to manually install. Perfect for figuring out how to net-boot a VAXstation, SPARC, or simply to put that Sun3 through its paces. (and anyone who thinks you can't have gcc and X in a 200MB full system, has never used NetBSD)

Re:PF and ALTQ (2, Insightful)

pkplex (535744) | more than 10 years ago | (#9211358)

#include "imo.h"

I think the advantages of FreeBSD are drivers ( for newer toys ), speed, and that jail thing ( which I have not actually used ) which AFAIK lets you run a virtual machine chroot thing. Also, freebsd ( and netbsd ) have automagical update the ports/packages tools and things. On openbsd you need to pkg_delete them yourself.

Other than that, I think OpenBSD is the ticket. Lots of people seem to think OpenBsd is only a firewall OS... which is unfortunate. OpenBSD works fine as a standard server ( eg, web, dns, mail, ftp, samba, etc ). The security effort which goes into obsd is also a deeper than just things disabled by default, too.

Good Work! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9179727)

I love FreeBSD! When one of the linux distros will switch over from the Linux effect and adopt one of the BSD??

Anyone interested in starting a bsd company offering a rock solid desktop OS? :)

Re:Good Work! (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9211230)

Debian already has something of the sort, and a lone Gentoo developer is working on it.

Re:Good Work! (1)

Cochonou (576531) | more than 10 years ago | (#9235783)

For Debian, there is Debian GNU/NetBSD [debian.org]

Fact: *BSD is dying (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9180525)

It is now official - Netcraft has confirmed: *BSD is dying

Yet another crippling bombshell hit the beleaguered *BSD community when recently IDC confirmed that *BSD accounts for less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of the latest Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last [samag.com] in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.

You don't need to be a Kreskin [amazingkreskin.com] to predict *BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood. FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers.

Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.

OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.

Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.

All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS hobbyist dabblers. *BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, *BSD is dead.

Fact: *BSD is dead

One true ports system? (2, Interesting)

killjoe (766577) | more than 10 years ago | (#9180961)

When are freebsd, openbsd, and netbsd adopt the one true ports system? Is there any logical reason to have three different source based ports systems?

Re:One true ports system? (4, Informative)

harikiri (211017) | more than 10 years ago | (#9182817)

I think the various ports systems emerged as a result of freebsd only supporting x86 (back in the day), and netbsd having a multi-architecture system (thus more effort was required to 'port' something to each arch, and there were fewer ports). Then OpenBSD came along, and imported in the FreeBSD ports system initially, and went on from there.

The reason why FreeBSD's port system has grown so quickly is probably because there's only been one architecture they had to 'port' applications across to. It would be slowed down if they had to unify the ports system to support not only multi-platform architectures, but also the differences between the kernels for each BSD project.

However, this reminded me of this [netbsd.org] . NetBSD's package collection actually has released their pkgsrc collection to both FreeBSD and OpenBSD.

Re:One true ports system? (2, Informative)

Strog (129969) | more than 10 years ago | (#9184023)

Pkgsrc is available for many OSes. It's most matured on BSD/Linux. It would be cool if several of the BSD's and Linux would use it. Check it out www.pkgsrc.org [pkgsrc.org]

NetBSD
OpenBSD
FreeBSD
Linux
Solaris
Irix
Darwin (OS X)

Re:One true ports system? (1)

killjoe (766577) | more than 10 years ago | (#9184170)

"However, this reminded me of this [netbsd.org]. NetBSD's package collection actually has released their pkgsrc collection to both FreeBSD and OpenBSD."

The problem is that pkgsrcs ports collection is not as complete as the freebsd ports collection. It has some extra features but the number of ports is lacking.

If freebsd was to adopt pkgsrc then the development effort would be unified and a more uniform set of ports would be available to everybody.

Re:One true ports system? (1)

DashEvil (645963) | more than 10 years ago | (#9294633)

I can think of one good reason.

On OpenBSD, apache and perl are part of the base system. bzip2 is not.

On FreeBSD, bzip2 is part of the base system. Apache and perl are not.

There are probably more examples.

BSD is dying... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9181498)

I like to keep my trolls to the point.

Dragonfly (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9181628)

Dragonfly is going to eat FreeBSD eventually. There'll be a serious brain drain in the Free camp once Dragonfly reaches a release stage, as it's rapidly exchanging FreeBSD cruft for DragonflyBSD niceness. People will want to work on the better BSD, and that'll be Dragonfly.

Re:Dragonfly (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9191748)

It's not good to eat a dead corpse. It gives you indigestion.

Re:Dragonfly (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9193458)

I fail to understand your logic somewhere.

You are either saying that FreeBSD developers *don't* try to improve things; Or do try to improve things but fail miserably.

I'll assume the second, because if they didn't even try to improve FreeBSD then they wouldn't really be developers. So that is saying that the single really active Dragonfly kernel developer outclasses all the FreeBSD kernel developers put together?

If he doesn't, then I don't see how Dragonfly is going to become "nice". If he does, then I don't see how you would call the loss of those outclassed developers a "serious brain drain".

I don't know why you get off making these wild predictions and then publically stating them as fact when it is just a wild statement based on your personal prejudice and very likely to be wrong. Seriously, 5 years ago when FreeBSD-5 and Linux 2.3 development first opened, you were going around saying how FreeBSD-5 will be more scalable, stable, better-under-load, better networking, faster, etc than Linux, weren't you?

BSD zealots. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9186946)

This is a log I had with a BSD zealot person...

S. tell P.: btw, I got enough of reputation of fanatic horse defender and horse welfare fighter that I think finding out I'm a zoo wouldn't do much harm :)
-> P. nods, so did a zoo I know IRL, he even had a horse rescue center, but he still has a lot of people who suspect him and avoid him because of it :(
-> P. tells you: all because he told his GF
S. tell P.: I'm not going to put myself into any situation that could mean danger to horses.
-> P. tells you: and she told as many people as possible
S. tell P.: A human GF. That's a baaad mistake for a zoo.
-> P. tells you: she wasn't too happy that he bonked mares.
-> P. tells you: she sent him emails every day for the next couple of months threatening him...
S. emote to P.: S. nods. Jealous probably. And feeling worse.
-> P. tells you: and since he lives in a 20,000 person town (8,000 whites and 12,000 blacks), the rumours from the GF spread very quickly indeed
S. nods.
S. is probably never going to have a human GF. At least one who wouldn't know. :)
P. nodsnods.
S. says: (like, all ppl on furry mailing list know I'm a zoo, if I "picked" one of the furry she-wolfs it wouldn't necessarily be bad :)
P. thinks it would be cool to have a GF that wasn't really human, but sort of like a realdoll with a quantumn computer brain that had a limited subsystem that allowed procreation naturally.
S. coughs.
S. asks: A robotic GF?
P. says: programmable brain, of course.
P. says: preferably running FreeBSD.
P. says: programmed in python.
P. says: no, not robotic... more like cybernetic.

So, who do you think is more pervert?

Elegy for *BSD (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9188912)


Elegy For *BSD


I am a *BSD user
and I try hard to be brave
That is a tall order
*BSD's foot is in the grave.

I tap at my toy keyboard
and whistle a happy tune
but keeping happy's so hard,
*BSD died so soon.

Each day I wake and softly sob
Nightfall finds me crying
Not only am I a zit faced slob
but *BSD is dying.

dead trees! (4, Interesting)

MavEtJu (241979) | more than 10 years ago | (#9192380)

Book: The Design and Implementation of the FreeBSD Operating System

I know a birthday present for this year!

Why is this at Score 5? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9253653)

Seriously?

Testing (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9193136)

testing

Status report (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9194526)

When will the status change from dying to dead ?

Why did FreeBSD fail? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9199899)

So why now? Why did FreeBSD fail? Once you get past the fact that *BSD is fragmented between a myriad of incompatible kernels, there is the historical record of failure and of failed operating systems. *BSD experienced moderate success about 15 years ago in academic circles. Since then it has been in steady decline. We all know *BSD keeps losing market share but why? Is it the problematic personalities of many of the key players? Or is it larger than their troubled personalities?

The record is clear on one thing: no operating system has ever come back from the grave. Efforts to resuscitate *BSD are one step away from spiritualists wishing to communicate with the dead. As the situation grows more desperate for the adherents of this doomed OS, the sorrow takes hold. An unremitting gloom hangs like a death shroud over a once hopeful *BSD community. The hope is gone; a mournful nostalgia has settled in. Now is the end time for *BSD.

I know the perfect place for *BSD: (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9202270)

*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_
g_______________________________________________g_ _
o_/_____\_____________\____________/____\_______o_ _
a|_______|_____________\__________|______|______a_ _
t|_______`._____________|_________|_______:_____t_ _
s`________|_____________|________\|_______|_____s_ _
e_\_______|_/_______/__\\\___--___\\_______:____e_ _
x__\______\/____--~~__________~--__|_\_____|____x_ _
*___\______\_-~____________________~-_\____|____*_ _
g____\______\_________.--------.______\|___|____g_ _
o______\_____\______//_________(_(__>__\___|____o_ _
a_______\___.__C____)_________(_(____>__|__/____a_ _
t_______/\_|___C_____)/______\_(_____>__|_/_____t_ _
s______/_/\|___C_____)__*BSD_|__(___>___/__\____s_ _
e_____|___(____C_____)\______/__//__/_/_____\___e_ _
x_____|____\__|_____\\_________//_(__/_______|__x_ _
*____|_\____\____)___`----___--'_____________|__*_ _
g____|__\______________\_______/____________/_|_g_ _
o___|______________/____|_____|__\____________|_o_ _
a___|_____________|____/_______\__\___________|_a_ _
t___|__________/_/____|_________|__\___________|t_ _
s___|_________/_/______\__/\___/____|__________|s_ _
e__|_________/_/________|____|_______|_________|e_ _
x__|__________|_________|____|_______|_________|x_ _
*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_


Important Stuff: Please try to keep posts on topic. Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads. Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page) If you want replies to your comments sent to you, consider logging in or creating an account.

Important Stuff: Please try to keep posts on topic. Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads. Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page) If you want replies to your comments sent to you, consider logging in or creating an account.

Important Stuff: Please try to keep posts on topic. Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads. Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page) If you want replies to your comments sent to you, consider logging in or creating an account.

Status report? Easy: (-1, Troll)

Athas (763316) | more than 10 years ago | (#9245693)

It's dead.
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