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The GNOME Roadmap

michael posted more than 9 years ago | from the paved-with-good-intentions dept.

GNOME 455

glockenspieler writes "Recently on the the Gnome Foundation mailing list, Dave Camp posted a draft Gnome Roadmap for versions 2.8 and Beyond. Issues up for discussion are Mozilla/Epiphany, incorportation of peer to peer filesharing, blogging, addition of more media widgets, and many others. Time for Gnome users to weigh in on what improvements that you would like to see. If that's not enough, then there's always the the C# versus Java versus ? discussion."

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455 comments

fp! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9336465)

FRIST POST SON!!! GG

Re:fp! (0, Offtopic)

eblum (624940) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336502)

But it doesn't count if you do it anonymously. =)

HARRY POTTER SPOILER! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9336772)

Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban Spoiler, exclusive to Slashdot!

Hermione dies.

frist prost (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9336470)

frist prost

Re:frist prost (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9336490)

YOU FAIL IT SON!!!! GG

Re:frist prost (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9336522)

yeah, but it was damn close.. you beat me by microseconds

They should stick with C (3, Insightful)

JoeShmoe950 (605274) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336473)

Personally I use KDE, but I used to use gnome. Not as pretty, but its faster and lighter than KDE. Take out C/C++ (forget which they right it in), and use Java or C#, they just made it bulkier and much slower. That would be their main opinion IMO. Gnome doesn't look bad, but most people I've talked to think KDE looks better. Take away Gnome's advantage in this situation, and they don't have much going for them.

Re:They should stick with C (-1, Troll)

Pxtl (151020) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336585)

Hooray for the GNOME roadmap. Now all they need is a car that can drive forwards. GNOME is the only thing keeping me away from Linux, and KDE isn't standardized/cross platform enough. GTK is easily the most painful widget set, both graphically and programmatically, that I have ever used.

Painful Widget Sets (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9336624)

GTK is easily the most painful widget set, both graphically and programmatically, that I have ever used.

Never used MFC then, have you?

Re:Painful Widget Sets (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9336791)

They pretty much all suck. The closest thing to a good widget framework I've run into is the VB model ... that's pretty fscking sad state of affairs since I detest VB with a passion.

Re:They should stick with C (1)

Jameth (664111) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336769)

"KDE isn't standardized/cross platform enough"

Uh, what? GNOME is no more cross-platform. They run on the various *nixes.

"GTK is easily the most painful widget set, both graphically and programmatically, that I have ever used."

Oh, you were talking about the Widget set? Guess what: Qt is the most cross-platform one of those. (In case you didn't know, Qt is what KDE uses.)

Re:They should stick with C (5, Interesting)

Daimaou (97573) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336663)

I feel just the opposite. I think Gnome's interface is elegant and KDE's inteface, while very colorful, it cluttered and knobby.

I can't put my finger on what it is, but there is something about KDE's interface that makes me angry. That may sound dumb, but I can only use KDE for a short while because it is emotionally exhausting to me and always leaves me feeling irritated.

KDE does many things right it my opinion (for example, their support for multiple keyboard layouts is excellent), but something about KDE is emotionally draining to me so I don't use it.

Re:They should stick with C (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9336711)

I feel the same way.

KDE is disco.

Re:They should stick with C (2, Insightful)

Nasarius (593729) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336747)

They use C, according to the article. I don't see why they're not considering C++. Unlike Java and C#, it's meant to be natively compiled, and it's a lot easier to write "clean" code with C++ rather than C, IMO. If nothing else, the STL is a beautiful thing when implemented properly.

Re:They should stick with C (4, Insightful)

arkanes (521690) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336786)

Because it's very easy to expose a C api to practically any language in existence but very difficult to expose a C++ one to anything except C++, and in fact it's generally done by flattening the API to a C one. I prefer C++ myself but for a library that is meant to be widely used and called having the base layer be in C makes oodles of sense.

Re:They should stick with C (2, Interesting)

Nasarius (593729) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336873)

No argument here. Write the libraries that are meant to be reused in C, write the core system in C++. Actually, the libraries can probably be written in C++ internally, as long as their parameters and return types are C-compatible. I'm not 100% certain on that though :)

Re:They should stick with C (4, Insightful)

caseih (160668) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336809)

I think both java and C# have a huge place in Gnome app development. As an example of an impressive app (that's pretty speedy) written for gtk in java, see Azureus [sourceforge.net] . Eclipse is another app written in java that really rocks. Both are speedy, probably as fast as they would be if written in C or C++.

The few C# gtk/gnome apps I've seen look great too. Just like the transition to enterprise frameworks like j2ee is the only sustainable way to do large-scale web development, using C# or java or some other tool is the only way to sustain large-scale client application development in the long run. Sure you can do it in C or C++, but sooner or layer the maintenance issues will get really expensive.

Re:They should stick with C (1)

Eslyjah (245320) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336909)

I'd like to see them use Objective-C. I think it would be a relatively painless switch.

Re:They should stick with C (1)

mmusson (753678) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336967)

Actually I think Gnome looks better. It's somehow more clean and streamlined. But no question, KDE is more integrated and powerful. I cannot decide between them myself so I run KDE on FreeBSD and Gnome on Gentoo...

Wow. Out of touch.. (4, Insightful)

stratjakt (596332) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336494)

Can't people just install their own peer-to-peer and blogging apps?

Why not make an installation system that works as simply as clicking setuppackage.msi is in Windows and let the other problems solve themselves?

Why not just make a working desktop first?

Sheesh. Yeah, this year will be the year of linux-on-the-desktop now that we have integrated blogging. That was sure the barrier for entry to me.

Re:Wow. Out of touch.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9336688)

To install package 'foo' in windows:

  1. Search Google for "foo."
  2. Find a working download site.
  3. Download the package.
  4. Double-click the installer.
  5. Welcome to "foo" installer. *Next*
  6. Would you like a standard install? *Next*
  7. What components would you like to install? *Next*
  8. Would you like to make "foo" the default application for "bar"? *No* *Next*
  9. Please wait. Installation complete. Reboot? *Yes*

Compared with

  1. apt-get install foo

Which one is simpler?

Sincerely,
Seth Finklestein
UI Guru

Re:Wow. Out of touch.. (2, Insightful)

Cereal Box (4286) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336805)

You conveniently forgot to take into account...

  • Distributions that don't have apt-get. Or yum. Or emerge. Or the other 23 different, incompatible package managers.
  • The possibility that what you're looking for isn't packaged.
  • That you know offhand what the package name is.
  • The need to point your installer at different repositories if what you're looking for isn't at the default one.


If you don't get all the criteria right, well, it's back to compiling the software, or searching for the package you want (just like with Windows), huh? Personally, I prefer the Windows route.

Re:Wow. Out of touch.. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9336894)

# Distributions that don't have apt-get. Or yum. Or emerge. Or the other 23 different, incompatible package managers.

I use Debian. All my boxen and all my lusers use Debian. What isn't available for Debian?

# The possibility that what you're looking for isn't packaged.

Improbable. When you want to make software available for windoblows, you make an EXE and an MSI and a DLL. When you want to make it available for Linux, you make a DEB and maybe an RPB. And you release the source as a TARball.

# That you know offhand what the package name is. ...or you use aptitude, which lets you find appropriate packages.

# The need to point your installer at different repositories if what you're looking for isn't at the default one.

Debian's repositories have over 89,000 packages available, including the one you want.

Re:Wow. Out of touch.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9336825)

Compared with
1. apt-get install foo
Which one is simpler?

Reading Package Lists...
Building Dependency Tree...
The following packages have been kept back:
[long list of packages]

112 packages upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 125 not upgraded.
Sorry, but the following packages have unmet dependencies:
[long list of dependencies]

Re:Wow. Out of touch.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9336927)

apt-get dist-upgrade, then.

Debian is the gold standard by which Linux shall be judged. And it shall be judged worthy.

Re:Wow. Out of touch.. (3, Interesting)

Cereal Box (4286) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336700)

Why not make an installation system that works as simply as clicking setuppackage.msi is in Windows and let the other problems solve themselves?

Oh man, you just opened the floodgates with this one. Prepare to be lectured on why the 37 different packaging standards make software installations easier than with Windows. Of course, the reality of the situation is that it's a crapshoot as to whether or not a package will work with whichever one of the 10,000 Linux distributions you happen to be running (chances are it won't), but hey.

Why not just make a working desktop first?

That would require setting aside this childish "Linux has to do every single thing that every single person on the planet could want it to do, and then some" attitude that plagues the community. No one wants to sit down and say "OK, let's mandate that all distributions have, at minimum, THESE particular packages that operate in THESE particular ways." No, no. That stifles choice somehow. Of course, everyone conveniently ignores the fact that some amount of standardization has to occur before Linux can be accepted on the desktop.

Yeah, this year will be the year of linux-on-the-desktop

You must have missed how the zealots are spinning this one now. See, there's no particular "year of Linux on the desktop" anymore, now it's "EVERY year that Linux gains popularity it's getting closer to the desktop!" Some clever guy came up with that one after everyone pointed out that Slashdot has been proclaiming every year since 1998 as the "year of Linux on the desktop."

Re:Wow. Out of touch.. (1)

powerlord (28156) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336808)

Yeah.
<sarcasm>
Having a set of standards for an installation to adhear to would just be wrong, after all, name one thing in computers that ever became predominant because of a standard
</sarcasm>

If I had mod points, I would mod you up :)

Re:Wow. Out of touch.. (2, Insightful)

Nasarius (593729) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336812)

Of course, the reality of the situation is that it's a crapshoot as to whether or not a package will work with whichever one of the 10,000 Linux distributions you happen to be running (chances are it won't), but hey.

Exactly. Package management is a distro issue, *not* a desktop problem. Of course, it's nice if you can just click an ebuild/RPM/DEB/whatever and it's installed automatically.

Re:Wow. Out of touch.. (2, Interesting)

linzeal (197905) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336736)

Because most people do not install much software and when they realize they do they make terrible mistakes in choosing the biggest most colorful box or the first website that hits on google. IF you include more software that would likely satisfy upcoming trends and needs of your users you reduce the chance that they will go get ripped off or buy something incompatible.

Re:Wow. Out of touch.. (0, Troll)

Pxtl (151020) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336760)

Amen. Features come second when your core framework is fucked.

IMHO, MS is finally getting something right - the framework they're designing for Longhorn is goregeous. XML GUI and class definition and all the crummy header and import crap, and C# for the procedural code. Basically, C# as a scripting engine, one almost as fast as straight C. Compare that with the sluggish Python scripts other systems use.

OS coders could do this. Just because moronic Java developers converted platform agnositicism from a nice idea into ideological zealotry doesn't mean OS coders have to. GNOME has a wonderful idea with using Java.

Think of it this way: you code all your heavy lifting code in painful C and C++. Your 3d model renderrers, your window placement, etc. Then you code all the mostly event-driven procedural crap in Java. Tons of apps do this already, but with sluggish VB or Python or Perl. Instead we do it with Java, which, compared to real compiled languages is slow, but compared to a scripting language it rocks ass.

This is what Microsoft is doing with Longhorn, and its a wonderful system. Try modding Unreal Tournament to experience a game engine built along the same paradigm (albeit without the wonderful XAML concept of Longhorn) and you'll see how much of a joy this is to code with.

Regardless of all the monstrous feature creep (like giving IE a complete copy of the Firebird feature set) of Windows, the new coding framework of Longhorn has got me twitching with anticipation. Unfortunately, it looks like its up to the OS team with the shittiest track record (GNOME) to try and make a counterpoint for this.

Linux On The Desktop will be ready just in time for Windows On The Desktop With Super Fast R.A.D. Trustable Networked Operating System.

The tools are available, Longhorn is behind schedule, its not like an OS counterpart framework with an intelligent window manager couldn't be ready long before Longhorn. But I doubt it will happen.

Re:Wow. Out of touch.. (2, Insightful)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336817)

Why not just make a working desktop first?


because for some reason today programmers can not understand the ideas of.....

Smaller.
Faster.
Better.

I really hope that someone will come in from the sidelines with a nice fast and easy to use desktop manager that has NONE of the added crud that is going into KDE and Gnome. I want all the added "features" to be add-on programs. if I want a battery meter, I'll download and install it.

If I want a blogger I'll download and install one.

I just wish that someone would either rip out the Gnome desktop functions, and Both KDE and Gnome copy paste and drag functions and strap them onto xfce after removing the bloat. (Oh and add a decent menuing system so programs can self-install launch icons easily by dropping a symlink in a directory location!)

I want the speed and TINY footprint of XFCE with the decent desktop managebility of Gnome and cross app cut paste.

that is it. no video editor built in, no mp3 ripper built in, no web browser integration, no launch feedback, no nothing but the job it is designed for.

coule we PLEASE get some genius programmers working on a fork of Gnome and remove 70% of the cruft? or they can do KDE... I dont care...

the rest of us simply want small fast and capable.

please?

Re:Wow. Out of touch.. (1)

gr8_phk (621180) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336879)

I'm always impressed when I run across something that says to "apt-get big-fscking-name" to install - or yum or whatever app your distro uses. Sure how am I supposed to know that? Where's the list of applications - indexed by function?

I'm with you, they need a good installer.

Re:Wow. Out of touch.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9336947)

Use aptitude [debian.org] . It installs all the packages you want, as many times as you want, and is free.

When is too much (4, Insightful)

vxvxvxvx (745287) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336499)

Do we really want blogging software, p2p software, etc included with gnome? Is gnome so perfect in other respects to justify adding features that 0.01% of people are going to use? I think a better use of resources would be improving and debugging the current Gnome programs before adding this -- someone else can always program p2p apps and blogging software.

Re:When is too much (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9336730)

It's sad when a valid criticism -- namely that Gnome should focus on providing an excellent desktop -- gets modded as "troll" because some moderator thinks built-in P2P and blogging apps are Gee-Whiz Nifty(tm).

Seriously, folks. It's the Gnome Desktop Environment, not the Gnome Application Library.

The future is BRIGHT (4, Insightful)

Gilesx (525831) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336500)

After reading this roadmap, I'm left with nothing but warm feelings of loveliness.

First off, working with Mozilla Firebird is a stroke of genius. There are a heck of a lot of man hours being put in on that project, we should utilise them rather than recovering ground already trod upon by the lizard.

Secondly, integrating both Ximian, Gnome-DB, calendering and address book tightly into Gnome could be a great leap towards a working Dashboard project. This alone looks like propelling Gnome into pole position - it's a genuinely innovative feature, not yet seen on any other desktop, and only hinted at by Microsoft so far. Beating Microsoft to the punch would certainly be a coup.

The other really encouraging thing is the following paragraph:

--
One area in which GNOME has lagged behind other desktop operating
systems like Windows and Mac OS X is tight integration with hardware.
GNOME is working with the freedesktop.org community to make
plug-and-play hardware management just work.
--

For me this highlights that Gnome has moved well into position as the premier Linux desktop, and rather than concentrating on what KDE are doing, they are focusing on bigger fish :) Looks like all those Sun corporate installations helped a little bit! Also, the close work the Gnome community is putting in alongside freedesktop.org is a *very* good thing. Integrating the desktop with the hardware is something Windows has been able to (alledgedly) do since '95, and it's about time we had that too! New users certainly need to be able to plug their digicam in and have it "just work", and if this can all be incorporated with Nautilus and the CD burner module, transferring pictures could be as easy as insert camera, insert blank CD and click Go. Gnome could fast be approaching Apple levels of usability!

I want my 2.8!

Re:The future is BRIGHT (4, Insightful)

Telex4 (265980) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336591)


One area in which GNOME has lagged behind other desktop operating
systems like Windows and Mac OS X is tight integration with hardware.
GNOME is working with the freedesktop.org community to make
plug-and-play hardware management just work.


For me this highlights that Gnome has moved well into position as the premier Linux desktop, and rather than concentrating on what KDE are doing, they are focusing on bigger fish :)

Personally, as KDE user I hope GNOME does this too, because where GNOME makes big improvements in areas like that, KDE generally follows, and vice versa, especially when freedesktop.org is involved :-) I also hope that GNOME doesn't approach it as a "let's get one up on the other desktop environments" exercise, as some users seem to advocate (and yes, the same can be said for some users of all desktop environments).

Integration is "good" now? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9336660)

Secondly, integrating both Ximian, Gnome-DB, calendering and address book tightly into Gnome could be a great leap towards a working Dashboard project.

Didn't Microsoft get flamed pretty badly for integrating a browser into their Desktop/OS? Just amusing to see how easily this is overlooked with the list of new Gnome "features".

Hint to Gnome developers: KISS. Manage my desktop, don't manage my applications.

Re:Integration is "good" now? (1, Insightful)

Gilesx (525831) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336687)

Integration is good when there is a reason to do it, and that reason is not to achieve a monopoly illegaly.

Re:Integration is "good" now? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9336777)

Integration is good when there is a reason to do it

But there is no practical reason to do it. What purpose would this serve that an independent blog application can't achieve?

The only thing that this will do is introduce bloat and instability.

Re:Integration is "good" now? (1)

Gilesx (525831) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336803)

Re:Integration is "good" now? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9336961)

From your handy link:

For example, if a friend IMs you and says "I can't wait for our camping trip this weekend!" the dashboard will show things like your recent emails about the camping trip, your camping bookmarks, and any files or notes you've got on your hard drive about camping.

So this is like an OS-wide Clippy or Bonzai Buddy then?

"Hi! It looks like you're IM'ing about camping! Would you like me to show you websites where you can book a campground?"

Because we all know how much people love Clippy.

Re:The future is BRIGHT (2, Insightful)

VisorGuy (548245) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336667)

I believe this is where D-BUS comes in... And that is already or will soon be supported in KDE.

Re:The future is BRIGHT (1)

Jameth (664111) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336707)

------
--
One area in which GNOME has lagged behind other desktop operating
systems like Windows and Mac OS X is tight integration with hardware.
GNOME is working with the freedesktop.org community to make
plug-and-play hardware management just work.
--

For me this highlights that Gnome has moved well into position as the premier Linux desktop, and rather than concentrating on what KDE are doing, they are focusing on bigger fish :) Looks like all those Sun corporate installations helped a little bit! Also, the close work the Gnome community is putting in alongside freedesktop.org is a *very* good thing. Integrating the desktop with the hardware is something Windows has been able to (alledgedly) do since '95, and it's about time we had that too! New users certainly need to be able to plug their digicam in and have it "just work", and if this can all be incorporated with Nautilus and the CD burner module, transferring pictures could be as easy as insert camera, insert blank CD and click Go. Gnome could fast be approaching Apple levels of usability!

------

Guess what? When working with freedesktop.org, they're also working with KDE. Just shut up.

Blogging (2, Interesting)

lancomandr (785360) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336507)

I think blogging integration would be nice to have. Some sort of dockable panel that you could type up your blog in, put in a picture for upload, etc.

Re:Blogging (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9336776)

Hell, could that be the next killer ap?

Re:Blogging (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9336829)

A similar tool already exists - check out GNOME Blog [gnome.org] .

Mozie (1)

cshark (673578) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336533)

Mozilla integration would be great. Maybe this could mean they're thinking of getting rid of Nautilus. I won't hold my breath, but it would be nice.

Re:Mozie (1)

DrXym (126579) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336697)

Nautlius works just fine in 2.6. The spatial functionality combined with fast file typing (by using a file extension) means that Linux works and feels like a proper desktop operating system for once. Previous versions were okay, but much too slow.


Fortunately it is still possible to run an explorer style window too, but overall GNOME 2.6 gets a big thumbs up from me - spatial, minimalist, uncluttered.


While it would be nice to see tools such as blogging etc. but I'd rather see services to support such tools. For example, Evolution has a nice day view that gives weather, rss news and other stuff. Something like that would be very useful for the desktop, where the content is supplied through an API that any app can plug into.

Re:Mozie (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9336761)

Maybe this could mean they're thinking of getting rid of Nautilus.

Mozilla is a web browser. Nautilus is a file manager. Replacing Nautilus with Mozilla would be like replacing Open Office with GCC. They're serve completely different funnctions.

how about (3, Insightful)

Triumph The Insult C (586706) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336548)

not implementing any of those? actually, how about taking it a step further and getting rid of a lot of stuff in there already?

i don't understand why windowmanagers need to do everything under the sun. the footprint of freebsd's gnome port is damn near 1GB. perhaps if the gnome and kde camps could focus on simplicity instead of features, things would be farther ahead than they are now. maybe we could all agree on a unified copy/paste for once for pete's sake.

Unix is very simple, but it takes a genius to understand the simplicity. Dennis Ritchie said that ... if anyone knows why Unix should be simple, it's him

Re:how about (5, Informative)

Harbinjer (260165) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336641)

Gnome is NOT a windowmanager. Its a desktop environment. If all you want is a window manager, use IceWM, Blackbox, ION, or(heck, why not) rat poison. I would've suggested Enlightenment, but that is growing beyond a windowmanager if I understand thngs correctly.

Re:how about (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9336720)

i don't understand why windowmanagers need to do everything under the sun.

How did that get modded up? Gnome is not a window manager. Gnome does include a window manager but not one that "does everything under the sun".

If anything, the main criticism of Gnome is that it goes too far in keeping individual components, such as the window manager, simple without a plethora of options.

language (3, Funny)

millahtime (710421) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336553)

C# versus Java versus ?

Real men use Assembly. They should code it in assembly.

Re:language (2, Funny)

McAddress (673660) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336771)

Real men use Assembly

real men write directly in machine code. assemblers are for wusses.

Re:language (2, Funny)

wafflemonger (515122) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336821)

Back in my day they had a bank of switches. You entered everything by flipping those switches. And we were greatful to have them.

Re:language (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9336880)

Pansy, I remember when a computer was a person with a pencil and a peice of paper. Now THAT is a real man.

Re:language (4, Funny)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336954)

Back in my day they had a bank of switches. You entered everything by flipping those switches. And we were greatful to have them.

Back in MY day we had to rewire the ENIAC and replace blown out vacuum tubes just to calculate 2+2!

(To which someone responds:)

Well, back in MY day, we had to rotate the proper component on our differential engine to calculate 2+2! And we LIKED IT that way!

(Which begets the response:)

OH YEAH?! Back in MY day, we had to slide beads on an Abacus to calculate 2+2! We liked it so much that we STILL do it! And WE could even calculate while walking uphill through the snow! Both ways!

(ad infinitum)

Java vs C# vs ? (4, Funny)

JohnGrahamCumming (684871) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336578)

I think they should really move on to use ?. It's the most superior language of the three, after all it's based on the earlier Jeopardy language where all statements are expressed as questions.

For example the familiar Hello, World! application is written in ? as follows:

what is the procedure the OS calls first?
{
what is the output of the most common small example program?
}

John.

Re:Java vs C# vs ? (1)

Waffle Iron (339739) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336729)

Your program won't compile unless you include the standard header files:

#include <what is your name?>
#include <what is your favorite color?>

GNOME + Ruby == good (0, Offtopic)

tcopeland (32225) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336589)

Check out some nice screenshots [rubyforge.org] of this book collection manager [rubyforge.org] written using the Ruby/GTK bindings.

Re:GNOME + Ruby == good (1)

Harbinjer (260165) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336862)

Some of my friends that raved about Python, now really like Ruby; do you have an opinion about this?

Also how did you get started with Ruby? Its something that I think I really like to learn

Re:GNOME + Ruby == good (1)

tcopeland (32225) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336924)

> do you have an opinion about this?

Yup, some folks seem to prefer one or the other; I like Ruby but that may be just because I haven't needed to learn Python.

> how did you get started with Ruby?

My boss likes it, so he got me to write an hourly build [ultralog.net] thingy in it. It's been good times from then on...

My Gnome Wish List (3, Insightful)

Nuclear Elephant (700938) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336627)

Basically gnome is great, but it lacks attention to detail IMO. I think future versions should focus more on detailed quality and not on expanding featureset.

1. The Menus should be much more customizable; treated like folders that you can click and drag into (I hate to say this, but "Like Windows").

2. Better Video control properties; take advantage of XFree's extended features and have options like TV switching and such.

3. Better preferences; the control panels are quite lacking.

4. Other aesthetic enhancements that will make gnome pretty enough to compete with other window environments (like win XP's or OSX's). Smooth scrolling, the zoom-on-hover icons in OSX are sweet, and _drop shadows on windows_ would be real nice.

5. Some kind of Linux-version-of-Active-Desktop would be real nice, so I could have an IRC session running as part of my wallpaper,anchor the weather channel radar map to the background, etcetera.

You have heard of gdesklets, right? (3, Informative)

djeca (670911) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336778)

oh, and 4 should be possible with Cairo and the new X servers. 2 sounds interesting, but I don't agree with 1 and 3.

Re:My Gnome Wish List (2, Insightful)

mcconk (536068) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336822)

1. Easy-edit menus. This is a must for consumers and even us old timers. I'd like to see an "expert" version of gnome that brought back all the panel and window manager tweaks that you could do back in the day. 4. Yeah, eye candy ok now with fast CPU's and lots of RAM.

Re:My Gnome Wish List (1)

Jameth (664111) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336884)

1. The Menus should be much more customizable; treated like folders that you can click and drag into (I hate to say this, but "Like Windows").

Quite right.

2. Better Video control properties; take advantage of XFree's extended features and have options like TV switching and such.

Again, correct.

3. Better preferences; the control panels are quite lacking.

GNOME is a horrible offender on the front that it wants to give the user just a few options, but no real power.

4. Other aesthetic enhancements that will make gnome pretty enough to compete with other window environments (like win XP's or OSX's). Smooth scrolling, the zoom-on-hover icons in OSX are sweet, and _drop shadows on windows_ would be real nice.

Those are being done on the X level in the new x.org server. Not GNOME's problem.

5. Some kind of Linux-version-of-Active-Desktop would be real nice, so I could have an IRC session running as part of my wallpaper,anchor the weather channel radar map to the background, etcetera.

It exists, and has for a very long time. On KDE, you can use SuperKaramba and stick all sorts of things on your desktop. I thought GNOME had something, but I don't know.

Re:My Gnome Wish List (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9336925)

It exists, and has for a very long time. On KDE, you can use SuperKaramba and stick all sorts of things on your desktop. I thought GNOME had something, but I don't know.

GDesklets

DBUS/HAL (4, Insightful)

ImpTech (549794) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336639)

Good to see D-BUS and HAL integration on the roadmap for 2.8. Just set them up on 2.6 last night, and they're quite fancy.

ATM, all they do (in conjunction with gnome-volume-manager) is automount/unmount/run removable media. Pretty much what you got with autorun for years on Windows, but more extensible in that you can tell the daemon what program to run, etc. Its also setup to detect/play dvds, and import photos from a digital camera automagically. Long overdue perhaps, but still very nice to have.

I suspect the best improvements are coming in the future once this is all integrated. Basically it gives the system a queryable, extensible device manager. In the future, I would expect all software that does hardware interaction will interface with this layer, for detection, hotplug, identification, and so forth. Long story short, its an absolutely critical piece of Linux on the desktop.

More responsiveness? (1)

Jayanef (317674) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336644)

I think GNOME 1.4 is faster than the newer version. Right now I still use 2.4 and shut nautilus desktop off because hog the memory.

So I want new version as fast as GNOME 1.4

bluetooth, etc. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9336651)

I'd like to see Ed Dumbill's Gnome Bluetooth subsystem get picked up by Gnome. I'd also like some UI to turn on and off spatial browsing. It's got real potential, but I'd like to be able to switch it off without gconf-editor.

Also, now that x.org's CVS has Damage and Composite on the way to working, someone should sit down and cook up some new eye candy using this stuff.

Um...Python? (5, Insightful)

Jameth (664111) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336654)

Java and C# have been proposed as alternatives. The community is currently discussing the technical, political, and legal ramifications of adopting these languages into the desktop.s
I would like to point out that Python has been proposed ABOUT A HUNDRED TIMES. Guess what: It's easy to use, it's high level, it has no legal ramifications, it's open source. Python solves every problem they have with its alternatives.

Also, using Python paves the way for universally integrated scripting, somewhat like the VB script possibilities in MS-Windows (and, despite waht MicroSoft did, that is a good thing).

Re:Um...Python? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9336834)

it's also slower than the above two choices

Re:Um...Python? (1)

Jameth (664111) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336976)

According to a lot of theory, yes. In practice, no. Both C# and Java need their virtual machine to run. Python can be interpreted or compiled. When compiled, it's plenty fast.

Of course, when GCJ is done, this won't be true, and Java will be able to be compiled.

Re:Um...Python? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9336843)

It also solves the problem of performance by guaranteeing you'll never see any.

Desktop Managers are not a good place to have an interpretted language running about.

Re:Um...Python? (1)

Jameth (664111) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336942)

Python can be compiled, it just doesn't need to be. So compile it. Problem solved.

Re:Um...Python? (3, Insightful)

tempest303 (259600) | more than 9 years ago | (#9337000)

I think you stumbled onto something very important here, though you're missing the big picture.

Python should not be used for core libraries or core apps like Nautilus. As completely excellent as Python is, it's just a fact that it just doesn't run as fast as C (or even Java or Mono) for nearly any operation. Also, using Nautilus as an example again, while Nautilus is finally fast enough as of 2.6, it still needs work in terms of memory footprint. Going to Java or Mono wouldn't help this, but going with Python for something like Nautilus would probably make it Much Much Worse(TM). Finally, while PyChecker [sourceforge.net] is a beautiful complement to Python, it's simply not a complete replacement for static type checking.

What you did hit on, though, was that Python (IMHO) ought to be pushed as the Linux equivlant role as VB does for MS - with hooks for it into everything, wherever possible. I don't see any reason why Python shouldn't be A) used like VB is for making quick custom desktop apps, but B) (and I know I'll get flamed for this), like VB, Python makes for a great system *and* web scripting language (ie: why push PHP when Python could do a much better job and offer familiarity between web scripting and system scripting)

If Python could get the approximately the same speed, memory footprint, and built-in sanity checking as Java or Mono, then it could be a contender for core app/library programming. Sadly, this isn't likely, and even if a concerted effort were launched to this effect immediately, it still wouldn't materialize for a couple years. Java and Mono, however, are here now.

Go OS X route a finally ditch X11 (1)

charnov (183495) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336666)

For the love of all the is good and right let X die! You want a road map for devlopment, copy each and everything the is in OS X and then go from there. Of course, I am one the weird ones running XFCE with Rox filer.

Re:Go OS X route a finally ditch X11 (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9336708)

So, what would you have them replace X with, exactly?

P.S. Your answer must include 3-d accel support from at least two vendors.

Are we forgetting somebody? (2, Interesting)

Avatar889 (670455) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336683)

Why look for such a big jump? C++ has a proven track record and none of the legal ramifications that Java or C# might. Plus it would interface so easily with C files.

Re:Are we forgetting somebody? (1)

chez69 (135760) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336816)

C++ still suffers from some of C's problems, such as no garbage collection without special libraries.

Other Tools Needed (2, Interesting)

syntap (242090) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336690)

Maybe if Gnome came with a defragger, a backup utility, a DRM media player, and a Windows Update tool it would be improved.

C'mon... none of these address simple usability issues like those noted by Nick Petrely. I don't agree with him on many things, but let's get usability going before we start throwing applets in.

Serious SDL Buffer Issues (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9336705)

I don't see anything on the roadmap to suggest that the Gnome team is planning to address the serious problems with multithreaded accesses to the windowing system's Z-buffer, problems that render many SDL based game ports nearly unplayable on anything but the latest video hardware.

The fact is, Linux needs games to be a success in the home. Windows 95 didn't really take off until DirectX - and MS's attendant publicity efforts - boosted it along. I feel that the Gnome people should be taking more care not to break SDL for the greater good of the Linux community.

A bit too much (1)

beatnitup (616700) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336710)

I for one believe that at times, less is more. I would consider this being such a situation. The majority of linux users use FTPs/IRC/Torrents etc for their "file sharing" needs. P2P is mostly used by windows users and those who don't have "connections". P2P, blogging, etc.. is just a bit too much at this point, the last thing we need is the RIAA to come after open source programmers.

Very odd. (3, Interesting)

Henrik S. Hansen (775975) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336718)

I find it very odd indeed that the official Gnome2 developer's guide is not Free Documentation.

It's especially amazing, considering that Gnome is an important part of GNU. What's up, Gnome foundation? Don't you care about documentation freedom?

x.org integration (4, Insightful)

FLoWCTRL (20442) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336724)


With regard to the plans for new media and networking features in GNOME, I hope that the GNOME team leverages efforts from the x.org project to work towards a common implementation of those features. In particular, I think that the Media Application Server [mediaappli...server.net] looks very promising. Since future versions of GNOME will likely be running on x.org anyways, the wheel should not be re-invented with respect to advanced media features.

Stability vs. Features (1)

AnomalyConcept (656699) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336740)

As far as my Gnome experiences have taken me, I find that there are a lot of features that are incomplete and/or not fully stable. I think the developers should focus on getting everything that they have working first, and then start fleshing it out with more applications.

As for the 'long term' projects, I don't really have a necessity for a blogging application. Which services will it integrate with? Or will it use one of the common APIs? I ask this because a friend and I are working on a content management system.

Since when has Linux desktop environments started to integrate exclusive programs into the respective environments? Will this eventually end up like the integration of Internet Explorer with Windows? I thought one of the aspects of Open Source was about choice, and so, will this integration limit choice? What if the DE was designed to be modular, where you can install/uninstall components at will? I agree with a previous poster, that software should be easy to install.

Regardless, I'm looking forward to the new release.

what no kitchen sink? (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9336743)

man that all sounds like lots of bloat.

GNOME is becoming more like KDE every day... (4, Insightful)

Rupan (723469) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336774)

It seems to me that with this roadmap, Gnome is planning on becoming the swiss army knife that KDE is. That is the exact reason why I do *not* use KDE. Gnome in its current incarnation (2.6) as well as the last several versions have appealed to me because they provide just the right amount of eye candy.

I am not particularly an X fan. I don't go for the shiny point and click thing because its just another layer separating the user from the system. Hence, I often have maybe a dozen terminal windows upen spanned across my 4 desktops.

That's not to say that X doesn't have its virtues. I wouldn't want to use Lynx as my sole browser, for the Web really does have some neat interactive and graphical content. However, things like IRC, News, and even P2P filesharing really don't need a GUI. Oh sure, I use X-Chat, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate Epic. And I actually really like Pine.

How would you like it if you could do realtime management of email on your computer from anywhere? And I mean anywhere. Run the email client you use at home from school, work, your mobile phone, etc? To do that, you need a client that can run in a terminal. This includes Mutt and Pine (amongst others). Hell, I even use (http://www.idokorro.com) idokorro mobile ssh to access my box from my car!

That said, everything has its place. But making Gnome into KDE is not the right way to go. If this happens, I will probably keep a backup of version 2.6 on CD somewhere and downgrade any new version from that my distro ships.

Most important technology not on the roadmap? (5, Interesting)

uss_valiant (760602) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336810)

What about the vector graphics plans?
Is a SVG based window manager so far away?

Don't SCREW the EXPERT (5, Insightful)

Speare (84249) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336872)

Disorganized series of thoughts follow.

Make everything as simple as possible, and no simpler.

It seems the Gnome architects often forget the important second part of that goal. Or they are, frankly, deluded into thinking that there is no limit to how simple and appliance-like they can make the computer. There is a limit, and that's when I can no longer adjust it to fit me.

In contrast, this is Microsoft's lofty goal, which is good enough as it stands, but they too still forget the nuances in that goal.

Make the easy things effortless, and the hard things possible.

Desktop designers can't just cherry-pick a few simple problems and write a few lines to make it easy. While it's noble to strip out the rarely used options, or the options that "confuse" the newcomer, it is NOT ACCEPTABLE to bury the familiar power interface behind a gconf/registry setting, or to make the familiar power interface unreachable. (You hear me, Nautilus?)

Allow configurability. Allow personalization beyond just the stupid passive things like wallpaper and skins. Let a user choose their favorite way of presenting information, and be smart about it.

Commit to finishing the features you start. How long has a Gnome-Menu editor been promised, but neglected? Ever since Gnome 2.0, they've said, "well, real soon now." We thought it just barely missed the deadlines for the first distros with Gnome 2.0, but I still can't edit my launcher menu. If obvious features aren't usable, then don't go announcing major X.0 version releases.

Please God.. (3, Interesting)

Visceral Monkey (583103) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336900)

Ditch metacity as the windows manager. Please. Also, after installing both the latest Gnome and KDE I can say without any doubt (at least on my machine and configuration, etc) that KDE is *much* faster than GNOME as almost everything now. It's now GNOME that feels bloated and out of touch.

My two cents... (1)

Howard Beale (92386) | more than 9 years ago | (#9336904)

I'd like to be able to print directly from the Snapshot app. I'd also like to be able to select a single window instead of just the entire desktop.

How about being able to have a different wallpaper on each workspace?

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