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Sun Opens JDesktop Integration Components

simoniker posted more than 10 years ago | from the bright-disposition dept.

Java 200

Jahf writes "Sun has released the JDIC / JDesktop Integration Components API via the LGPL. The idea is to create a Java API that allows Java applications to better integrate with a modern desktop. It allows apps to embed a web browser component, access/launch desktop applications and associate filetypes. Documentation and demos are available and there is an incubator project (SaverBeans Screensaver) under way. Sun has been a proponent of developing desktop apps in Java, including a number of open source Java apps in the Java Desktop System and developing new ones for it as well (Java System Updater), and this appears to be a step towards making that goal a bit easier. I'm sure that every release of Java Desktop System (disclaimer: yes, I work on it) will continue to get the 'it has nothing to do with Java!' trolling since Sun is using GNOME as a desktop foundation (imagine what people would say if Sun created a 3rd environment in Java!) But those willing to step back and look at all facets (JDIC, Java Desktop System, Looking Glass previews, etc), hopefully others will see that Sun is getting more serious about making Java a platform for desktop developers."

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MMM Free Coffee (-1, Troll)

vawlk (14842) | more than 10 years ago | (#9359886)

the taste of the newb generation!

Sad news ... Ronald Reagan, dead at 93 (-1, Troll)

wurk (450820) | more than 10 years ago | (#9359898)

I just heard some sad news on talk radio - Horror/Sci Fi actor Ronald Reagan was found dead in his Bel Air home this morning. There weren't any more details. I'm sure everyone in the Slashdot community will miss him - even if you didn't enjoy his bombs, there's no denying his contributions to popular poverty. Truly an American icon.

LGPL! (4, Interesting)

HiThere (15173) | more than 10 years ago | (#9359901)

That's a much better license than I was expecting. Of course, I don't know just what is being covered. It's important to know that before giving Sun too much credit. (Still, they haven't been slow about being viscious in public, so no reason for them to be subtle now.)

In other news... (4, Funny)

happyfrogcow (708359) | more than 10 years ago | (#9359908)

a Sun spokesperson says, "The future of JDesktop Integration Components is uncertain. We have no plans to make JDesktop Integration Components open source in the near future."

GET SOME PRIORITIES LIBERAL COCKSMOKERS (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9359964)

The quintessential President of the 20th Century has died, and all you can talk about is some joke about Java components? Show some respect, fly boy. Even if you didn't agree with all of his policies, you certainly can't deny that he brought down the Soviet Empire and changed America, for the better, like no President before him.

Re:GET SOME PRIORITIES LIBERAL COCKSMOKERS (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9359993)

Actually, I can and do deny that he brought down the Soviet Empire and changed America for the better.

Re:GET SOME PRIORITIES LIBERAL COCKSMOKERS (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9360204)

By modern medical standards (brain-death), Reagan crossed the line almost 15 years ago.

You're a bit late with your sentiments.

Re:GET SOME PRIORITIES CONSERVATIVE WARMONGER (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9360329)

What the hell are people supposed to do, stop laughing for the rest of their lives out of respect for Raygun's death? In Soviet Russia, America changes you!

How about out of respect for Raygun's passing, you take a time-out from calling random people "liberal cocksmokers".

Re:GET SOME PRIORITIES LIBERAL COCKSMOKERS (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9360745)

Can't deny that he brought down the USSR? Yeah we can... For that matter, anyone who knows anything about history not only CAN, but DOES. That was left up to Gorbachev, peristroika, glasnost, and liberalization, my friend. Reagan just happened to be around at the time and to go 'yes, yes, Mikhail, do that, it'll help... erm... you...'

TOO BAD THE JAVA DESKTOP SYSTEM SUCKS SHIT (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9359914)

Lol sun more like $$$$$$$$$$un am i rite here guys

Re:TOO BAD THE JAVA DESKTOP SYSTEM SUCKS SHIT (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9359939)

HELLZ YEAAAAAHH I"M WWF THERE ASS NASCAR!!!!!!!

(and then i added a bunch of randomness to get past the filter.)

Re:TOO BAD THE JAVA DESKTOP SYSTEM SUCKS SHIT (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9359946)

i saw what you did there and I like it

Re:TOO BAD THE JAVA DESKTOP SYSTEM SUCKS SHIT (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9359962)

Well I'm not a tech guy... I just buy what the tech guys tell me to buy. When it comes to buying equipment, all I do is write the checks and buy what I'm told to buy. I guess Nate didn't think a backup would be necessary or something, and since I know nothing about that type of thing, I couldn't second-guess him. All I do is write the checks.

I just (-1, Offtopic)

thebra (707939) | more than 10 years ago | (#9359925)

installed Open Office on my Windows machine, its the first and only time I've needed Java runtime enviorment. I just don't use java the much, I'm guessing this is more for businesses? (I didn't RTFA I just saw the word "Java")

Re:I just (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9359951)

how do you like your new redundant tag? loser

/. doesnt care what you think, they want to hear about geek shit. if you had the words "star trek" in there you woulda been modded +5 mate.

fucking gay mods

Re:I just (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9360423)

Just FYI, openoffice doesn't _need_ a java runtime, it can just make use of a sun one if it finds it - means you can drop javabeans and applets into your Writer documents, for example.

Yes, that sounds like pointless fluff only a PHB could love, so you are right, it basically is just for businesses.

Re:I just (1)

jkauzlar (596349) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360641)

Java's major strength comes from server-side application programming (web pages), an area where Java has proven extremely effective (not as a language, necessarily, but as a platform). There's been some improvements on Java GUI applications over the years but their GUI system is still a little clunky and bug-prone. The only good reason to install a JRE is to run Applets, which are clunky webpage embedded GUI apps from before the Flash days. Applets are common on educational websites for demonstrating ideas or offering dynamic calculation/visualization tools. Other than that, they're not being used much either.

Sun actually GPL'ing something?!!? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9359936)

Oh, this is a suprising nicety.

Hopefully this goes well and encurouges more like this.

Good job Sun!

Here I thought you were going to go the way of SCO and the dodo bird.

More! We need More!!!

-Your freind, the average linux user.

Re:Sun actually GPL'ing something?!!? (3, Informative)

theguywhosaid (751709) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360101)

OpenOffice.org [openoffice.org]
deep down, Sun loves us

Re:Sun actually GPL'ing something?!!? (2, Interesting)

I confirm I'm not a (720413) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360196)

...and netbeans [netbeans.org] , though the license was the Sun Public License (like the Mozilla license), rather than the GPL.

...though I'm more an eclipse [eclipse.org] kinda guy, myself.

That's good news (4, Interesting)

gustgr (695173) | more than 10 years ago | (#9359937)

This can help the GCJ [gnu.org] project to build their free CLASSPATH faster.

Soon [I hope] this free Java compiler/interpreter will be ready to replace the "closed" Sun's Java.

Misinformed (3, Informative)

vlad_petric (94134) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360104)

Classpath itself is "already there". Classpath is slowly being merged into libgcj.

OTOH GCJ is far from replacing Sun's java (at least in terms of speed). To compile java properly you have to do some funky runtime optimizations (which sometimes even require un-optimizations!), something that the gcc infrastructure doesn't really allow. That's why you get considerably better running speeds with Sun's or IBM's JITs (although you do get better startup speeds with gcj)

Re:Misinformed (1)

lokedhs (672255) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360375)

Startup times are pretty good with java these days too. Running a hello world (which should consist of pretty much only startup) takes 0.150 seconds on 1.4.2 and 1.116 seconds on 1.5.

This is on an Athlon XP2400+ machine running Fedora Core 2 (kernel 2.6.5).

This is obviously a lot slower than a C program (no surprise there) but it's still fast enough to give you an "instantaneous feeling" when running an application.

Re:Misinformed (1)

khuber (5664) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360712)

That's interesting. I would have expected your system to be a bit faster. Maybe I am just cached from repeatedly running this.

My system (p4 2.53G / 512MB) runs the following program in .05 seconds with 1.5.0-beta2.

public class Hello {
public static void main(String[] args) {
System.out.println("hello");
}
}

Good step forward, but... (4, Insightful)

teutonic_leech (596265) | more than 10 years ago | (#9359948)

... shouldn't they have done this 4 or 5 years ago? Why now? We could all run Java based browsers and applications if those guys would have put their thinking caps on half a decade ago. Just my personal opinion - as usual, I could be wrong ;-)

Re:Good step forward, but... (4, Interesting)

Pieroxy (222434) | more than 10 years ago | (#9359970)

I agree completely. They had their perfect cross-platform platform back then. They could have done so much, back when there was no real competition in that area (read desktop apps, such as browser, office, etc...), that every move they make now just look odd at best.

Re:Good step forward, but... (1)

uss_valiant (760602) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360344)

... shouldn't they have done this 4 or 5 years ago? Why now? We could all run Java based browsers [...]
Yeah, sure. Java browsers. If there is an application that's got to have a fast GUI and a good responsiveness then it's the browser and the email program.
Or do you know any browser coded in Java having the responsiveness of a Firefox or IE 6?
[/obligatory Java GUI speed rant]

Re:Good step forward, but... (2, Informative)

EndlessNameless (673105) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360618)

[/obligatory Java GUI speed rant]

I could see (and agree with) the point about noticeablely slow app response times in 1998.

But now Joe Schmoe can get a 2.0+ GHz CPU with 256-512 MB of RAM with nearly 3 GB/s of usable memory bandwidth. Unless there are some really serious performance problems with a particular runtime environment, there is no reason for a Java app to run noticeably slower than an precompiled machine binary app in the language of your choice (barring serious number crunchers, of course... we're talking desktop apps here).

Processing capabilities have increased so much since the early 1990s that the overhead incurred by Java is negligible for newer systems. I think the biggest problem stemming from this initiative if it actually goes anywhere will be making sure that average users have a sufficiently up to date JRE.

Hell, my machine is slower than the latest and greatest speed demons, and I have no trouble with Java apps running slowly or consuming enough RAM/CPU/IO to make anything run slowly (except maybe when Azureus eats all of my bandwidth :) download cap implemented in 2.1.0.0 though).

Re:Good step forward, but... (3, Interesting)

0racle (667029) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360355)

Five years ago the main GUI for Java apps was the AWT, which just didn't sit well with a lot of serious developers. Swing was in its infancy, was dog slow at the best of times and didn't play well with threads. If they had tried to do this then, or anytime before Swing became a lot more usable, then it would have died before anyone noticed. They probably could have done it a little sooner, but its possible that because they now ship Gnome instead of CDE they're rethinking some of they ways the deploy a GUI desktop, or are making it easier to create apps with Java across all installations for desktop oriented tasks so that more programmers realize what can be done with Java.

Trolling? JDS = GNOME = Mono = .NET on Linux (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9359957)


I'm sure that every release of Java Desktop System (disclaimer: yes, I work on it) will continue to get the 'it has nothing to do with Java!' trolling since Sun is using GNOME as a desktop foundation (imagine what people would say if Sun created a 3rd environment in Java!)


neverind the trolling you'll get because GNOME is being implented in .Net/Mono instead of Java.... :)

That's right I say:
JDS = GNOME = Mono = .NET on Linux

Re:Trolling? JDS = GNOME = Mono = .NET on Linux (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9360005)

so now we know the *real* terms of that $2 billion sun extracted from microsoft. :)

seriously though, it makes sense. too much sense...

Re:Trolling? JDS = GNOME = Mono = .NET on Linux (2, Informative)

I confirm I'm not a (720413) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360052)

That's right I say:
JDS = GNOME = Mono = .NET on Linux

Almost:
(JDS = GNOME) != (Mono = .net on multiple platforms)

GNOME is written in C (C++?), Mono is an open implementation of .net that runs on multiple platforms (including GNOME, KDE, Solaris, Windows, etc, etc) One's a language, the other's a technology (virtual machine, languageS, etc)

...and, to be honest, JDS is like most distros: it's not just the Window Manager. But hey! Why let "facts" get in the way of a good troll!

I think (1)

sethadam1 (530629) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360567)

I think what the original AC meant was that there was talk not long ago about Gnome version 3 or 4 being written to function within Mono, thereby delivering .NET to the Linux desktop via Gnome, which Sun uses. JDS = GNOME = Mono = .NET on Linux couldn't be more wrong, but I get what the intent was.

Re:Trolling? JDS = GNOME = Mono = .NET on Linux (2, Interesting)

Decaff (42676) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360643)

Mono is an open implementation of .net

Key fact:

Mono is an open implementation of a subset of .Net, not supported by Microsoft, the creator of .Net.

Re:Trolling? JDS = GNOME = Mono = .NET on Linux (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9360087)

"neverind the trolling you'll get because GNOME is being implented in .Net/Mono instead of Java.... :)"

Do this mean that Microsoft will be able to charge Linux users for using Gnome..?

Arghhh... brain overload! (1, Interesting)

jared_hanson (514797) | more than 10 years ago | (#9359958)

(imagine what people would say if Sun created a 3rd environment in Java!)

Man, that was uncalled for. My head is spinning with comments. Must not read Slashdot thread for other's jokes.

Seriously folks, lets keep this on topic and confine these things to a single thread that is easily ignorable. Replying to this would be a good start.

Still an abusive friend (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9359983)

Java -- liked it, thought it was the future, then it ran slow on the desktop so I stopped looking at it. I heard it's great on the server side, though. Then processors got faster and memory got cheaper so I thought hey, let's do Java on the desktop again!

Enter the debate of AWT, Swing, JFC, and all these other widget libraries. I tried the free Forte for Java and JBuilder to make me cutesy GUIs. I compiled and ran it on a Win98 box, transferred it over to a Linux box, and it worked spiffy except for a few font complaints. I had issues creating a jar file, though, and eventually got sidetracked away from the language altogether.

In the end, Java seems like an abusive friend -- I keep going back, and it keeps giving me pain. Haven't gotten around to running Eclipse and trying again. Not sure if it's safe to give this 'relationship' another shot.

Re:Still an abusive friend (4, Insightful)

Pieroxy (222434) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360073)

I had issues creating a jar file

You realize that this is like saying "I has issues creating a .o file with gcc", right? If you can't get a jar file, you didn't go very far in your investigations.

Haven't gotten around to running Eclipse and trying again

Last time I tried, it was really simple: Run the installer, double click on the .cmd (or .sh on unix I guess). If you can't get that working, then I guess Java is not for you.

Re:Still an abusive friend (1)

KenSeymour (81018) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360130)

Maybe his jar file was written to a file called "a.out"

Re:Still an abusive friend (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9360168)

Thus the cycle continues -- effort to learn Java depends on its success on the desktop. Success on the desktop depends on effort to learn Java.

A similar cyclical argument exists for the creation of desktop applications on a certain "alternative" operating system.

As for the jar file, I ended up creating one but wasn't able to launch it from the command line. Something about explicitly pointing to the main class or whatnot.

Re:Still an abusive friend (1)

Pieroxy (222434) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360240)

Thus the cycle continues -- effort to learn Java depends on its success on the desktop. Success on the desktop depends on effort to learn Java
Hmm, interesting. I don't actually think the effort to learn Java is that big. But of coure I already know it, so I am biaised...

As for the jar file, I ended up creating one but wasn't able to launch it from the command line. Something about explicitly pointing to the main class or whatnot.
So a jar file is nothing else but a zip of a bunch of .class files and a few descriptors (sometimes more than that). And yes, since the jar file contains several classes, you need to specify which class is the main class you wish to execute when someone is trying to execute the jar. That's what the descriptors are all about.

Re:Still an abusive friend (2, Informative)

WinterSolstice (223271) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360462)

Sounds like some fairly basic issues. Not hard to do a google search on. Of course, it should just be pinned on Java, right?

Java is about as intuitive to learn as MSVC... while the core language is simple, making a nifty little GUI work is not. It's easy to make a "hello world" jar that runs from the command line, but making an actual graphical applet that runs that way is quite a bit different.

-WS

Re:Still an abusive friend (1)

Pieroxy (222434) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360501)

while the core language is simple, making a nifty little GUI work is not
I totally agree with that point of view. It's actually not the fault of the language/libraries at all (IMO) but for the lack of a decent GUI builder. I haven't tried JBuilder & others in a while, but the last time I tried, it was really ugly (As compared to other nice GUI builders for other languages).

Of course, it is a weaknes of Java to lack such a nice builder.

Re:Still an abusive friend (3, Informative)

minniger (32861) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360430)

Take a few min and read

man java

and

man jar

if you have the main-class set correctly in the manifest you can do:

java -jar yourjar.jar

if not then just do

java -cp yourjar.jar org.my.Main

where org.my.Main is the main class of your app.

I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that any non-trivial platform you want to use is going to take some time to learn. The JSDK has a TON of docs that come with it. Put some effort into it and read them. Esply the part on the jar tool.

Re:Still an abusive friend (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9360589)

java -jar your jar.jar

I think many people wanted to say this to George Lucas after Episode I.

Re:Still an abusive friend (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9360203)

If you've used tar on unix, jar is very simple:

jar cvf myJar.jar *.class

One thing I like about java is that it's so easy to make a Makefile for:

foo.jar: Foo.class Bar.class Etc.class
rm -f $@
jar cf $@ $^

%.class: %.java
javac $^


But this will fail to include subclasses (like Foo$Bar.class), so it actually takes a little bit more scripting than that. Still, the build process is very very simple, and coming from a C background, I can appreciate that..

Re:Still an abusive friend (1)

khuber (5664) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360656)

Makefiles don't work well with Java for two reasons. One is that javac is slow to invoke repeatedly, and the second more critical one is that javac needs access to all dependencies when it compiles. With C you have independent compilation for a.o b.o. In Java, if a.java references b.java, either b.class or b.java must be there at compile time!

You're much better off using ant than make. It's faster and more Java-friendly. It will recurse your project directories so you don't have to explicitly list all the class files you wish to generate.

My impressions (3, Interesting)

finkployd (12902) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360006)

Looking glass is way cool, I am itching and burning to get my hands on a copy of that (and perhaps some ointment).

Java Desktop is gnome with a new theme. Seriously they didn't even do as good a job as Redhat with Bluecurve in pretending that it was anything more than that. I suppose the real benefit is the legitimacy that it lends Linux on the desktop to the PHBs of the world, but technically it appears to be nothing to get excited about.

But the demos I've seen for looking glass....damn. It looks like Apple's Expose on steroids.

Finkployd

Re:My impressions (3, Funny)

happyfrogcow (708359) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360156)

But the demos I've seen for looking glass....damn. It looks like Apple's Expose on steroids.

yes it does.

-Instead of a nice pretty background, you get a pinkish, zit-covered background.

-Way more bulk than any prgram needs... quickly turns to bloat if you stop running it.

-Violent mood swings lead to the termination of all the puny shell scripts.

-To pass a performace test it will try to load foreign components, specifically, C code.

Re:My impressions (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9360243)

Java Desktop is gnome with a new theme.

No, it's not. JDS is a Linux distro. It has a number of EMS tools, the J2RE, various non-free plugins (eg, media players), several desktop utilities written in Java, etc.

People who think JDS is just "GNOME" or "SuSe" haven't used it. It's a unique distro. Definitely has that "we are serious about this in corporate environments" feel.

Java footprint too large for ubiquitous usage (4, Insightful)

jbr439 (214107) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360036)

Java's memory footprint is currently too large to allow numerous java programs of a moderate complexity (and size) to be running simultaneously on the desktop. Until Sun gets VM sharing going, we will not see Java attain a strong desktop presence. And, in the meantime, Microsoft will be cleaning Java's clock with .NET.

I work in Java and would love to see Sun devote the effort required to make Java *truly* desktop ready. However, I fear that that is not a priority for Sun, and instead we'll see .NET/C# rule the desktop. Hope Sun proves me wrong.

Your wish shall be granted. :-) (5, Informative)

lokedhs (672255) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360107)

Java's memory footprint is currently too large to allow numerous java programs of a moderate complexity (and size) to be running simultaneously on the desktop. Until Sun gets VM sharing going, we will not see Java attain a strong desktop presence.
I presume you mean something like this [sun.com] ?

Re:Your wish shall be granted. :-) (2, Interesting)

jbr439 (214107) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360421)

That's a step in the right direction, but it does not go far enough. As the blurb says, only 5 to 6 MB gets shared. I am running JDK 1.5 beta2 and to be honest, I haven't noticed much (if any) savings (this is on Linux 2.6.5, don't know about windows). I currenly have 3 Java progrmas running using 511MB, 288MB, and 276MB (the first one is eclipse) according to both gtop and ksysguard. They are easily the top 3 memory pigs of the 150 processes currently running on my desktop. It is possible that gtop and ksysguard are not telling the total truth, but I do know for a fact that the java programs are the ones with which I get the most bang for the buck when I have to start killing processes to free up memory.

I suspect that to make Java truly viable on the desktop it would be necessary to have true VM sharing. In this scenario, starting a Java program would result in it being executed in an already running VM. The VM would be capable of running multiple programs simultaneously while still providing the safety of the sandbox. And, of course, there would always be at most only one copy (or part thereof) of a given class in the VM, regardless of how many applications are making use of it.

I don't know how feasible this really is, but Java will not take off on the desktop without something like it.

Re:Your wish shall be granted. :-) (1)

johnnyb (4816) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360592)

"I suspect that to make Java truly viable on the desktop it would be necessary to have true VM sharing."

I doubt that's the real problem. I think the bigger problem is just the super-object nature of it causes things to be large, especially since "everything is an object".

Re:Your wish shall be granted. :-) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9360721)

Other languages which makes use of object-orientation do not exhibit what you suppose is the cause. In systems like scheme and lisp for example, there are no primitives at all.

All in all, VM sharing is going to be significant. Eclipse development is by and large VM sharing in an artificial manner. The ability to hook apps together and have them communicate as objects as opposed to something more artificial like signals (ala emacs and friends) results in a fantastic system to develop software in. I can only imagine what a real VM sharing system would result in especially if it goes beyond simply sharing class information but discovery of what else is running.

Re:Your wish shall be granted. :-) (1)

lokedhs (672255) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360657)

I haven't noticed much (if any) savings (this is on Linux 2.6.5, don't know about windows). I currenly have 3 Java progrmas running using 511MB, 288MB, and 276MB (the first one is eclipse) according to both gtop and ksysguard.
There could be a lot of shared memory there, you really can't tell wether that happens using only the tools you mentioned.

IIRC Solaris has a command called pmap which can be used to see this. My Linux box seems to have that command too but it doesn't seem to do anything.

Re:Your wish shall be granted. :-) (1)

AaronGTurner (731883) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360744)

"511MB, 288MB, and 276MB (the first one is eclipse" Sort of explains why eclipse 3 runs like a dog on the 384MB machine on my desk at work. I like it because it is cross-platfrom across Solaris, Linux, Windows (and others). But it is such a memory hog.

,NET footprint same OR LARGER than java (5, Interesting)

GCruick (786273) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360250)

In our projects we have found that the .NET winforms foot print is minium 11mb, but often is at least 20-30mb. So please stop spreading FUD

Re:Java footprint too large for ubiquitous usage (4, Insightful)

Decaff (42676) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360425)

Java's memory footprint is currently too large to allow numerous java programs of a moderate complexity (and size) to be running simultaneously on the desktop.

By default the 1.4 JVM allows a default maximum (note 'maximum' of 64MB per application, but there is no reason why an app needs to use anything near that. The full Swing GUI demo (a pretty complex app with memory-hogging features) from Java 1.4 runs comfortably in 32MB.
New machines are purchased with around 512MB of memory. That is enough to run more than 10 copies of this app.

If you use something like SWT; a portable GUI library with native code bindings you can run Java apps GUI with memory requirements a lot smaller (Swing is a memory pig). You can run many more GUI apps. If you don't require a GUI, Java apps can require memory requirements of the order of single figures of megabytes, including the VM for each app.

How many Java apps do you want to run - 10, 20, 30, 40?

Microsoft will be cleaning Java's clock with .NET.

Why? For now .NET is simply an alternative desktop development environment. Microsoft have a very low presence in the mid-range and high-end server market. Unless a full-featured (not just Mono) enterprise-level .Net is released to the Unix market .Net will have very little impact on the server side, which is where Java has a dominant and growing presence.

If Java starts to grow on the desktop as well, .Net is in trouble.

Java worms soon to come. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9360053)

As they add more features and functionality I fully expect them to encounter the same problems that Microsoft has. With tighter desktop integration the risk of bugs and malicious actvity also increases.

How long before we start seeing Java worms? It's only a matter of time. How will we blame Microsoft for them? They'll be cross platform worms. The only redeeming feature is that with the performance that Java provides, propogation of such worms will likely be a bit slower than the usual Windows type.

Re:Java worms soon to come. (1)

molarmass192 (608071) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360550)

Won't happen, know why? The Java security sandbox. In 50 words or less, if you don't launch the app, it has no avenue for propagating itself since a) there's no file I/O available, b) no way of spawning an external process, and c) no pointers so it's impossible to exploit a buffer overflow. The only malicious Java code I've run across in almost 10 years now was in the form of a trojan. Even then, the trojan can't self replicate (see above). Conversely, MS conveniently included memory pointers in .NET, hell, they even added them to VB.NET to make life easier for the script kiddies. Now, you wanna bet there's at least 1 unchecked buffer to exploit in there somewhere?

Re:Java worms soon to come. (1)

RatRagout (756522) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360747)

The again Visual Basic had this years ago: "The idea is to create a Java API that allows Java applications to better integrate with a modern desktop. It allows apps to embed a web browser component, access/launch desktop applications and associate filetypes"

Re:Java worms soon to come. (2, Informative)

Decaff (42676) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360684)

How long before we start seeing Java worms? It's only a matter of time. How will we blame Microsoft for them? They'll be cross platform worms.

Nonsensical FUD.

Java has security manager features that have been tested and refined over a decade. Java was designed from the core to protect against such problems - every memory access and every class loaded is validated.

The only redeeming feature is that with the performance that Java provides, propogation of such worms will likely be a bit slower than the usual Windows type.

More FUD based on no evidence. Java has not been slow for years.

Fully supported by RIAA (3, Funny)

FerretFrottage (714136) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360057)

Dammit, I have coders block on my real project, but I can see how the RIAA may make use of java on the desktop. I hope everyone will now see the danger of java on the desktop and its integration

try {
toDownloadMusic();
}
catch (GrandmaAnd12YrdOldViolators you) {
fineAndMakeYouAppearInCommerical();
}
finally {
try {
payMusicians();
}
catch(MoneyNotFoundException haha) { //ignore the musicians
}
}

private void payMusicians() throws MoneyNotFoundException
{
if(true) {
throw new MoneyNotFoundException("Sorry, get all of it because we like it that way");
}
}

Name mistake (4, Insightful)

jared_hanson (514797) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360059)

The biggest problem in naming it the Java Desktop System is that you are making your product lines vague and ambiguous. Didn't you learn anything from watching the whole Microsoft .NET hilarity as that ensued.

Why not name it the Linux Desktop System, thereby keeping naming distinct between OS and development technologies? Sure, it's good to tie them together, but you need some focus and clarity among the things you are trying to push.

Now, somewhat more contraverial, is you also need to recognize the contributions of the many people who's code you are selling. It would seem a responsible thing for a member of the community to acknowledge their participation by helping promote the name (Linux, GNOME, whatever). I'm not trying to flame Sun, because they've done some nice things with ATK and OO.o, etc. However, as a Linux supporter, why should I go with Sun over IBM or Red Hat when both of those put forth more effort to evangalize open source?

Re:Name mistake (1)

SocietyoftheFist (316444) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360181)

I think their might be issues with that naming. Linux is a registered trademark and I think Linus might have issues with a naming that implied it was THE Linux Desktop System

Re:Name mistake (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9360201)

Now, somewhat more contraverial, is you also need to recognize the contributions of the many people who's code you are selling. It would seem a responsible thing for a member of the community to acknowledge their participation by helping promote the name (Linux, GNOME, whatever).

Yeah, just like Red Hat acknowledges GNU... oh wait up, they fucking don't.

You Sun bashers are inconsistent which makes you comical just like your harpy queen on Groklaw.

Re:Name mistake (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9360683)

"Harpy Queen"...that's a good name for "PJ", the shrill voice of the fREE sOFTWARE community. Thanks for sharing that little tidbit with us, sharing feels good, doesn't it?

Not just Linux (4, Informative)

_damnit_ (1143) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360381)

Because it will not always be Linux underneath. Running the JDS just means you have a common set of apps, ui, libraries and java. It could soon be Solaris x86 underneath or a sparc version running on Sunrays (which I still think are cool).

Sun's Take (2, Informative)

Agret (752467) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360061)

Is this Sun's take on WHATWG and XAML? I never really liked Java beacuse it runs so slow in the current virtual machines, with the annoucement that it may go open-source, and if it does, we may see better virtual machines and this technology they are developing now could be very good.

Re:Sun's Take (1)

lokedhs (672255) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360146)

Have you used the latest versions? 1.4.2 or even 1.5? In fact, Swing feels faster than GTK on my current machine. I have not made any benchmarks, but it's just the feeling I get. In any case, to me that is proof enough that Swing has finally become "fast enough".

Re:Sun's Take (1)

gray peter (539195) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360461)

Who says it's too slow? That may have been true 5 or 6 years ago, but have you tried it lately? 9/10 of the time any sufficiently complex java application will run perfectly fast. It's usually poor programming that makes code run slow, not the VM.

Re:Sun's Take (1)

Decaff (42676) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360503)

I never really liked Java beacuse it runs so slow in the current virtual machines.

It doesn't.

It hasn't run slow for years, since reasonable JIT/hotspot acceleration arrived in Java 1.3 many years ago.

To quote from "Performance of Java vs C++" by J.P.Lewis:

"Java is now nearly equal to C++ on low-level and numeric benchmarks. This should not be surprising: Java is a compiled language (albeit JIT compiled)."

The paper then goes on to investigate why the myth of Java slow speed persists.

Java-less Servers (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9360097)

The desktop is where Java belongs, not on the server. Java is too much of a bloated, fickle pig to run reliably on servers, IMHO.

Re:Java-less Servers (1)

PierceLabs (549351) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360217)

Strange considering that there are sooooo many Java server applications out there and more being written every day. Weblogic and Websphere aren't 'developer desk'-names for nothing. Java is far more suited to the server than it is on the desktop at this time.

Java is getting much better on the desktop (FINALLY), but it is most definitely at its best on the server.

Re: Buitiful desktop Java apps (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9360350)

Java is getting much better on the desktop (FINALLY), but it is most definitely at its best on the server.

Why? Am using Java on the desktop every day, it's fine. Check out some Java apps screenshots [javalobby.org] .

Re:Java-less Servers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9360374)

i would say that there are tooooo many java server apps out there. my last employer recently migrated from websphere to weblogic, and they are both bloated and fickle. the only way to scale them is to throw more servers at them. and maintaining their configs is a waking nightmare. and don't even get me started about their db connection pools!

Re:Java-less Servers (1)

gray peter (539195) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360486)

Bah. That's just silliness. Next thing you're going to tell me that PHP is sooooooo much better. There's a reason there are so many java server apps out there --- they work!

Another Desktop API? (2, Insightful)

razmaspaz (568034) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360115)

For a company that claims it doesn't want ot see java splintered by open source Sun sure is trying to make things complicated. First they have awt, then swing, then IBM jumps in with SWT, ok fine IBM evolves the Java Desktop and it looks pretty good. See eclipse [slashdot.org] But now Sun releases another API for the desktop that, while different in purpose, is not compatible with SWT. Great. not to mention the fact that it uses GNOME (a.k.a. .NET-Just wait). How does this help make Java a more unified platform?

At first I was an oponnent of OSS Java, but now I'm not so sure. I am thinking anything is better than Java in the hands of Sun. Will someone please give Java to Apple.

Re:Another Desktop API? (1)

aled (228417) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360390)

You are wrong. This is just a library, it's not part of standard libs of the language. So this isn't fragmenting anything. And Sun can't prevent (why would want?) anyone to make their own libraries, as long as they don't change the standard base library, like SWT which works on Java, you choose to use or not. That may do a little fragmentation, but it does run over Java anyway. It's not like J++ which changed the language with propietary reserved words.

I agree somewhat with the last part: what Sun should do is not open or close, but make a better implementation, which Apple's one seems to show is possible.

Re:Another Desktop API? (1)

Decaff (42676) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360731)

I am thinking anything is better than Java in the hands of Sun.

Why? Sun have kept the core of Java and the bytecode stable while opening up parts of the spec so that other companies have been able to offer a variety of APIs. What is your problem? You don't have to use any of these APIs if you don't want to. You can write as many Swing or SWT apps as you like. You can even combine them into one program. If you have an issue with what Sun has done, you can write your own alternative.

Read The Friendly Article (1)

M. Baranczak (726671) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360748)

You completely misunderstood what this library does. It is not a replacement for AWT/Swing/SWT (that is, a GUI widget library). From what I've seen, it's a set of high-level utilities to help a Java app communicate with the native desktop environment. For example, there's one function to open a URL in the user's default application. Also several classes for managing the desktop environment's file type associations. Until now, there's been no platform-independent way to do this in Java. (Though I still don't know just how platform-independent it is... they mention Windows, Linux, and Solaris - nothing about MacOS.)

Always The Outcast (1, Insightful)

WombatControl (74685) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360116)

I took an interest in Java for desktop work a few years ago, but quickly realized that Java on the desktop is even worse than Java applets were. (And at the time they were both incredibly atrocious.)

Even with the increases in processor power, storage, and memory, Java is still atrocious, even compared to interpreted languages like Perl or Python. Even the simplest applications leave even powerful systems swapping like mad. Java consumes memory like the unholy offspring of Rush Limbaugh and Courtney Love would consume drugs at a pharmacy warehouse. Java brings in a large memory footprint that makes it completely unsuitable for many applications.

And don't get me started about Swing and the other Java UI classes. The last thing we need is another UI toolkit. Had Java used native widgets, it might fit in better. Had Java used widgets that didn't look like a throwback to Motif it might have been slightly better. Instead Java UIs tend to be a usability nightmare. Even Eclipse, which is far and away the best app I've seen in Java has nowhere near the visual polish as its GNOME, KDE, Aqua, or Win32 equivalents.

The fact is that if Java is to succeed in the desktop it needs to be made much faster, memory footprint needs to be reduced, and it needs to get a consistant and usable set of Human Interface Guidelines. Unfortunately for Sun, I tend to think that the Java developers would be better suited to inventing a time machine and traveling back to 1996 when such improvements may have made a difference.

Java has a nice niche as an enterprise-level web applications language, but as a desktop programming language Java isn't neither well-regarded nor particularly useful. Now that you have other languages like Python (which beats Java for RAD tasks hands down) or .NET (which has the advantage of both Windows.Forms and Gtk# as well as an extensive class library), whatever Sun does to make Java a desktop programming language is probably too little, too late.

Re:Always The Outcast (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9360260)

Native widgets? I dunno, I wanna write a weird word processor and the Swing text system is the only thing I've found with the flexibility I need. Every little piece is out in the open, I can swap out the core storage model which has a minimal interface, and all the rest works on top of it. Swapping all that for the Windows Richtextbox just ain't gonna cut it.

wx4j: Native widgets via wxWidgets (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9360434)

You can get native widgets in Java via wx4j [wx4j.org] .

Heck, you can even compile the whole thing natively [wx4j.org] .

Re:Always The Outcast (4, Informative)

Decaff (42676) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360599)

Had Java used native widgets, it might fit in better.

Java can use native widgets easily: IBM's SWT toolkit does just that.

Had Java used widgets that didn't look like a throwback to Motif it might have been slightly better.

Then don't use these widgets. Use any of hundreds of Swing look and feels, or use versions of SWT that use GTK, or Windows, or Aqua.

Instead Java UIs tend to be a usability nightmare.

There is nothing intrinsic about a Java UI that is a usability problem. With any Java GUI you can design your own buttons, add your own accelerators, menus, colours, tooltips. I think you are confusing the bad design of some particular applications with what is potentially possible using a GUI toolkit. Its like saying that GTK is bad in general because you have seen some badly designed GTK apps.

Even Eclipse, which is far and away the best app I've seen in Java has nowhere near the visual polish as its GNOME, KDE, Aqua, or Win32 equivalents.

This does not make sense: Eclipse uses GTK, aqua and Win32. It uses those native widgets! Eclipse is a native GUI program.

Oh the irony... (1)

DaneelGiskard (222145) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360117)

Java...write once...run ever...on Java Desktop ;-)

Startup time (4, Insightful)

ecloud (3022) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360184)

Now if they could make it so you don't have to start up a separate VM for every application...because it takes too much memory AND too much time.

They've needed a process model for a long time. That's still the critical piece needed to make a "Java OS" a reality. (AFAIK it still is missing...)

Of course there is the copout that the interpreter ends up in shared memory anyway. But what about loaded classes? Are they shared between apps? I think not.

Of course, applications can be written to become threads in an existing VM rather than intended to start up on their own, but that generally isn't done. This way Sun can ignore security issues between apps within the sandbox by saying well, just start up a new sandbox for every application, and there is no way they can step on each other. Moore's law has had many cycles now since Java came out, and the cost of even one VM is still not negligible, let alone one per application.

Then there is the fact that Swing applications always look so unique, so volatile and unreliable, due to the fact that they paint slower, and you can sometimes see unpainted gray areas, at least temporarily. They make a bad impression, like old cars going down the road perpetually in primer, the "restoration" incomplete for years on end, making you want to ask "when are you ever going to use real paint!" They should instead work on fleshing out AWT to include the missing widgets, like trees (just implement their own native versions on the few OS's whose GUI toolkits don't have them), and screw pluggable look-n-feel. That should be a toolkit feature for the whole OS, not just for Swing applications. This approach is largely responsible for Swing apps looking and feeling so crappy.

Free T-Shirt Give-away (1)

markroth8 (762728) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360241)

Don't forget about the free Java Desktop T-Shirt giveaway [java.net] for the first 20 screensavers submitted before JavaOne!

Good start! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9360267)

... and a good news. Java's next?

So what? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9360276)

What is wrong with Windows, OsX, Gnome, Curl, Swing, Macromedia, or one of the many other GUI technologies?

How many times does the wheel have to be reinvented? It's a whole new way to do the same old thing.

People can only absorb so much before they stop caring. This is just one more new tech thing to wash over my head.

interesting (1)

vmircea (730382) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360297)

I wouldn't expect Java to make something like this, but hey, it's definitely not a bad idea. I've dealed with java a lot in this past year, learned a good deal about it... Although it is not as fast as C / C++ it is a good deal easier to learn and use, and you can do some things easily with it. And this new developement will make it a better tool, in my opinion.

What the hell can I even write in the subject line (3, Insightful)

Tarantolato (760537) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360300)

I'm going to follow an increasing trend on Slashdot these days and come right out and admit I haven't read TFA.

I'm also going to follow an age-old trend of mankind and blame the victim. Really, Sun; with all of the incomprehensible noise that's been coming out of official and semi-official channels, who can blame me? The Kremlin during Brezhnev's dotage was more on-message than you these days. Clearly you were asking for it.

But anyways, if this doesn't include a less-restrictive license on the JRE such that it could go into Fedora, Debian, free-as-in-beer SuSE and other non-commercial distros, who gives a fuck? I don't even mean GPL - even a patches-only Minix-style source license; hell, even just free binary redistribution without selling your firstborn to Scott McNealy would do it.

Yes, yes, I know; those aren't enterprise Linux. But they are what enterprise Linux guys run at home.

If Sun really wants Java to be the platform of the future, they've got to make it possible to install as part of a platform, rather than an afterthought added in after you've already got kernel, services, gui, and browser application running.

JDS soon to become SDS (1)

linuxislandsucks (461335) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360443)

watch since SUn cannot update the Untied Linux kenrel by itself legally(T WSCO group) they will switch out linux fro Solaris in their next release and call it SDS..

Re:JDS soon to become SDS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9360678)

Sun has always said they plan for the JDS to run on Solaris (Sparc & x86) [b]and[/b] Linux.

It is to provid a unified interface between both of its OS product lines. A Solaris JDS end user can quickly move to Linux-based JDS with out ever knowing.

This is a good thing, why as Sun will put effort into improving Gnome.

All for Java, but it still needs time... (5, Interesting)

SirPrize (590850) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360482)

I've been developing in Java for close to 7-8 years now, and am a great advocate of Java - for those tasks that fit it. I think Java on the server-side is a very powerful thing, but that it just wasn't ready for the desktop up to and including v1.4. Try running 10 copies of Notepad - and then try running 10 Notepad-equivalents in Java, and see the difference. Having said that, v1.5 bringing virtual machine sharing should have a big impact on this, but I have not yet had the opportunity to evaluate how much of a difference this makes on the footprint. I recently had to demo an old application that we developed back in '98 for Java 1.1/1.2, on both Windows and Linux using Sun's 1.4 virtual machine. I was appalled to see that the application, which had very good performance on Windows, was unfortunately having quite dramatic performance issues when run on Linux (Tests were done on a dual-boot machine). Java on the desktop - yes, great. But up until 1.5, it wasn't the time. Maybe things will change now.

Re:All for Java, but it still needs time... (1)

SirPrize (590850) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360523)

Replying to self because I forgot to mention about the entire AWT/Swing/SWT debacle. I don't think Swing was a good idea, because it was introducing another level of inconsistency. The GUI objects in desktop apps should look and behave the same, unless they have very good reason not to. SWT and its native objects are definitely a step in the right direction.

Re:All for Java, but it still needs time... (1)

mlk (18543) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360590)

1.5 VM sharing is not great. Maybe one day we will get a good VM sharing.

application that we developed back in '98 for Java 1.1/1.2, on both Windows and Linux using Sun's 1.4

Thats not really a completly far test, after updating is it still as bad.

Note: I'm not disagreeing with the bulk of you message. Its just you should really use a fair test. I do thing 1.4 is almost-ready for end-users. As I think Azureus [sourceforge.net] shows. (All be it using SWT instead of Swing).

I'd be happy if (0)

zangdesign (462534) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360711)

they'd just do something about the speed. Java runs like ass on my 500-mHz iBook. I finally gave up on Java apps looking like ass, because there's nothing I can do about that, but if it would just run faster, I might actually start taking it seriously.

Where is the security? (1, Insightful)

StonyUK (173886) | more than 10 years ago | (#9360755)

I don't see any documentation about how requests to launch applications will be validated.

What is to stop a malicious java applet from registering an action that is executed via /bin/sh and then opening a payload script?

Is JDIC restricted to applets running on the local machine, or could any old web page host an applet that could launch documents for you?
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