Recent Grads and Experience Beyond the Desktop? 574
over_exposed asks: "I'm a recent college grad (B.S. in C.S.) and have been on the job hunt for about 6 months. I've been playing around with tech toys as long as I can remember, but it all focuses around the desktop environment. Desktop-grade routers, switches and wireless as well as any/all desktop PC (and some Mac) hardware is what I could get my hands on with my limited budget. After looking through hundreds if not thousands of job postings, everyone is looking for 3+ years of network admin experience or 5+ years of C++ experience even for an entry level position. How is one expected to gain that kind of experience when no one will hire you without the experience? What kind of (part-time) work can you get as a college student to gain experience (Cisco, Exchange, SQL, etc) that will be marketable in the real world? Any suggestions from the Slashdot community will be of great benefit to myself and thousands of others who will enter the 'real world' in the next few years."
LUGs (Score:5, Insightful)
Aside from simply applying for such positions, I would suggest you attend a Linux User's Group [linux.org] in your area. Along with expanding your knowlege and skills, a LUG connects you with relationships that might be helpful in finding part-time work. You'll also get a better feel for the local job market.
Re:LUGs (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:LUGs (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:LUGs (Score:2, Funny)
Re:LUGs (Score:5, Funny)
The average middle manager wouldn't know a Linux User's Group if it jumped out of their ass and did the tap number from 42nd street.
Re:LUGs (Score:4, Informative)
While certainly deserving of being modded "Funny," it's equally deserving of "Overated," possibly "Untruthful." The North Texas Linux Users' Group [ntlug.org] job opportunity list routinely sends out requests for assistance, sometimes full-time, sometimes part-time, sometimes contract. Over the years I have participated in a few contact jobs as a result of posts to the LUG mailing list. Contrary to the parent poster's message, there are people out there who recognize the value of networking and the value of targeting a select group of individuals who, on average, will generally have a more appropriate skill set than, say, the population exposed to a newspaper classified.
Find the LUGs in your area, as well as other UGs and subscribe to their job lists. It's probably one of the more underated activities and least time-consuming you can add to your job search techniques.
Re:Lie On Your Resume (Score:5, Informative)
I recently filled 3 of 4 open positions in my section and will be interviewing people for the fourth one next week. When I go through a stack of resumes, I triage them like this:
- Yes, contact these people. They get a first interview.
- Maybe. If the best people in the Yes group have already taken jobs or othewise don't work out, this is the stand-by group. So far, we have never had to call anyone in the Maybe group.
- No. People in this group are one or more of: way over-qualified, way under-qualified, totally unqualified, way too expensive, are in some other way unqualified (sometimes we relocate people, other times we want to make a local hire, for example), or they were caught in some lie on their resumes.
Among the members of the No group for this round of hiring is a person who was pretty well qualified (possibly over-qualified, but I would have put him in the Yes group) but was caught with BS on his resume. He is in the No group not just because that one part was a lie, but because at that point I instantly lost all confidence in all of his claims of experience. Anyone who has been looking at resumes for a while can recognize the BS pretty easily. If I see BS on your resume, you go into the No group. Do us both a favor and be honest. If you're honest, the worst thing that can happen is you won't get that position, but if your resume seems OK but just wasn't right for that position, I'll hang onto it. You never know what might come up in six months. If I catch you lying, your resume goes into a file of people who will never be contacted for a job with us.
Also, we do background checks before extending job offers. If you succeeded in BS on the resume and again at the interview, but get caught in the background check, not only will you not get the offer, you will never interview with us again. If you get by all that and get an offer and get hired and it becomes obvious the you just lied really well and got hired anyway, you will be fired. So far, no one has gotten past us.
I look at all the resumes I receive. It's true, triage takes out most of them. That's just a hard fact of life that comes from the fact that there are far more applicants than there are positions. I usually wind up with two (and sometimes three) resumes in the Yes pile for each open position. We interviewed six people for the three positions filled so far, and on of the other three was referred to another section where we knew they had an opening and her skillset matched what they needed a lot better than it matched what we needed. We still interviewed her, but we invited that section's manager to the interview and that manager asked most of the questions. The applicant is now a finalist for that position. If she had given us BS on her resume or in the interview, that would never have happened.
Bottom line: honesty on your resume and throughout the interview process is really the best policy, even if it sometimes looks like BS could be a good shortcut. The best people to work with and for, at the best places to work (and I think we are pretty good in both of those respects) will hire you as much for honesty and personality fit with the team as for technical ability. So much of effective management and team-building comes from recognizing people who don't *need* to be managed and who fit in well with each other and easily form a cohesive team, that if you don't meet those criteria then we don't care about your technical skills. I want people on my team who are honest, self-motivated, get along well together, and have no "issues" that I need to deal with. If you don't meet those criteria, I have no use for you. So don't lie on your resume or in the interview.
Be honest. It won't always get you the job, sometimes it might cost you the job, but if you sling BS either on your resume or in person, I guarantee it will cost you the best jobs out there.
Re:Lie On Your Resume (Score:4, Informative)
You think you can't be caught? Fine, just go on thinking that. I'll never have to compete with you for a job.
Keep thinking that about background checks, too. There are agencies that specialize in getting exactly that kind of information, and it's a lot easier than you think.
Screwing over entry-level workers? Who? When? Where? You obviously have no idea what being screwed over even is.
When, exactly, did all these nameless companies tell people that if they got CS degrees they would get jobs? No one ever told me that. If you said a lot of people assumed that if they got a CS degree they would practically have lifetime employment, you'd be right. But that is very far from companies telling them that. No company every tells anyone anything like that. Sure, the jobs dried up. That isn't the fault of any of the companies who are hiring (or not) CS graduates today. Indeed, the companies that are hiring (or not) today are the ones that survived. If you want to find someone to blame for the jobs that dried up, you have to look first to the people that ran all the companies that *didn't* make it. The ones who burned through huge piles of VC cash on luxurious parties, foosball tables, video games, any sort of corporate extravagance you could name, astonishing salaries even for people with no experience and less skill, the whole dot-bomb nine yards.
I remained gainfully employed through the burst of the dot-com bubble. The only period I was unemployed was from June to September of last years, and that could be termed voluntary, since I relocated and resigned from my old job to do so. Now, of course, I'm working again. Those three positions I wrote about were newly created. The one I still have to fill is an existing one to replace someone who got an offer he couldn't refuse. I hated to see him leave, but it's a great opportunity and I'm glad it went to a deserving person. If he ever wants to come back here, the door is wide open.
Do you know why I remained gainfully employed through the jobs massacre that was the aftermath of the dot-com era despite the fact that I don't even have a CS degree? Contributing reasons are that I'm careful about choosing who I work for, and also probably a bit of plain old luck.
Another is that while I did not do my degree in CS, I do have a brain and skill, and I use both. But the capstone of all that is that I never misrepresented myself in any way to any employer, so what they saw was what they got, and I could fully deliver on everything I claimed.
If you talk the talk, but don't walk the walk, you'll be the first to go if there is belt-tightening.
Also, please keep this in mind: pretty much every employer has a clause in their personnel policy which says that if they ever discover that you lied about anything on your resume or application, references, anything at all, you can be fired. Now, read this very carefully and be sure it sinks in: there is no one in my section who is so good that, if I found that they had lied to me on their resume and been hired on that basis, he or she could expect to have me not want them fired. No one.
Now, I'm not looking for skeletons in their closets, because they all have been checked out, they all are honest people, and they are walking the walk. But just imagine a situation where someone takes a dislike to you and *does* want to find a skeleton in your closet. There had better not be one on your resume, because that resume is still on file and they could go through it with a fine-toothed comb looking for problems. If they find out you never worked at company XYZ, or you never really took course ABC, that's all they need to fire you with cause.
You seem very young, possibly even an unemployed CS graduate yourself, with very little experience in the working world, and not much in th
Hmmm, not in my experience (Score:3, Informative)
Too many people, sometimes even people like yourself with "35 years in the computer field," don't know very basic things, things that can make them less effective than properly-trained CS graduates.
There are a relatively small number of interview
Network! Not data-networking, social networking. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Network! Not data-networking, social networking (Score:5, Insightful)
--
11 Gmail invitations availiable [retailretreat.com]
Re:Network! Not data-networking, social networking (Score:3, Insightful)
This is easily said, but not easily done for many people. Imagine a person rowing up to New York City in a grass boat from a primitive island-nation having never seen such a city before. It is reasonable for me to say "Yeah, you just get on the subway, go to XYZ street, take a cab to QRS square, don't look homeless people in the eye, stay out of suspicous alleyways, etc." and actually expect that person to make it?!?
The people who are good at networking typically got that w
Re:Network! Not data-networking, social networking (Score:3, Interesting)
Internships (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Internships (Score:3, Interesting)
Lie (Score:5, Funny)
That's what I was going to say (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Lie (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Lie (Score:2, Interesting)
So if you can answer the questions then what difference does it make whether you have 3 or 10 years under your belt.
Re:Lie (Score:5, Insightful)
Design and build a project of your own (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Design and build a project of your own (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Design and build a project of your own (Score:4, Informative)
I'm in "in the trenches" programmer, not a manager who does hiring. But I've been doing it for about 8 years, and I've been sometimes involved in the hiring process at the companies I've worked for.
Anyway, I agree with the above post. To me, a person who loves this stuff enough to code something up on their own has the right mentality to be a talented programmer. In fact, I've seen somebody with no professional experience whatsoever get hired that way... the person doing the hiring was so impressed at the kid's demo software that he hired him right away. He turned out to be a brilliant programmer.
Re:Design and build a project of your own (Score:4, Insightful)
And heck, build it like your trying to start a business...you just might!
Too high too fast (Score:4, Insightful)
Once you get promoted you can then use that as leverage for external promotion. Remember all promotion is essentially internal in one way or another, it just seems like it is external because people change jobs so often.
Welcome to the present (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Welcome to the present (Score:3, Insightful)
...and with them went our communities, neighborhoods, being able to sign a mortgage before starting to withdraw from the (probably non-existent) retirement fund, families, hope, joy, careers, the value of our educations, and everything else that makes working a 40 hour week important.
But that's alright. Don't complain too loud. There'
Re:Welcome to the present (Score:3, Interesting)
The company folded abruptly in about seven months. Millions
Backhanded compliment (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Welcome to the present (Score:4, Interesting)
If you are fresh out of college but walk into your interview with a couple years of active work in open source projects, you will make a good impression.
If I have to hire a guy right out of college I would love to find one that has helped run an open source project that is in wide distribution. This way at least I know the programmer has been exposed to real life situations like scope creep, managing user expectations, quality assurance, etc.
Internships don't hurt either, my own employer has hired people that started with us as interns.
Resume shredding time. (Score:4, Interesting)
1. Lose the picture. Getting past the first HR screening means letting them be able to prove lack of prejudice, so being a 'while male in his early 20's', while putting you in the 'good' bucket, means that HR can't say that they picked your resume on its merits without regard to race, color, creed, age, or sex. If they know, what are the odds they skip over you because they couldn't show lack of preferential treatment?
2. Double ditto on the horse picture. How do you know that the interviewer isn't a big Christopher Reeve fan?
3. Lose the personal stats, Title (Mr.), Date of Birth, and Marital Status. If the reason isn't blatantly obvious, see #1 above.
4. The personal stuff at the bottom, specifically the bit about being an avid four-wheeler and gun freak wouldn't go over too well in the People's Democratic Republic of California or the Communist Federation Commonwealth of Massachusetts (where Boston is.) I'm a bigger gun freak than you are, but I don't admit it on my resume or during an interview.
The good stuff
MCSE, CCNA, CCDA, and BS/CS (cum laude, in three years - good job.) Oh wait, that's not a degree in software engineering, it's a degree in multimedia on the computer (also known as Flash / Macromedia.) Hmm. That one could go either way, depending on how well you interview. If you were seeking a spot in America I would drop the classes / certs on equine behavior and being a certified murderer (that's how some people view firearms in the two states that hire the most tech guys, CA and MA - but in Texas that might be ok.)
Last thing - if you are going to post your resume, do it on a domain that doesn't have anything else on it. Nothing like finding a resume in www.yourdomain.com/resume and when the HR folks go up a level and find a blog talking about sex with a different college chick every night. Your main page is pretty tame, but I didn't probe too deep.
That wasn't too harsh - but not for lack of trying. Good luck on the hunt.
Objectives are useful (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Its a revolution out there (Score:3, Informative)
That's right - instead of the productivity gains of accelerating automation being spread out more equally, it is increasingly being concentrated by the extremely wealthy [blogspot.com]; us "useless eaters" are left to scramble for shittier and lower-paying make-work jobs (and hopefully die of disease-of-the-month to free up some realestate
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Stop with the dot com expectations (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Stop with the dot com expectations: WRONG (Score:3, Interesting)
The real problem here is new grads are competiting against other grads, others with years of experience (and software to show for it) and connections, and the low costs of overseas. Basically, the job situation is the same as before the dot com.
This person has to do two things:
Re:Stop with the dot com expectations (Score:5, Informative)
While not unrealistic in the current IT market, "crappy help desk job" has nothing to do with becoming a software or network engineer.
For an analogy, a helpdesk job at an IT firm compares well to a secretary at a law firm. The secretary does not "climb the ladder" to full fledged lawyer, and the helpdesk guy does not eventually become a real engineer (not to say it never happens, but it when it does, it will involve some circumstances beyond "working up the corporate ladder"). Totally different jobs, one geared toward MCSEs and assorted other college dropouts, the other to people with a 4-year degree and good coding skills (which do not automatically come with any degree... You have to get those skills on your own through years of practice, which fortunately can start long before college).
No, a recent college grad shouldn't expect a six-figure salary. But they shouldn't take a $7.50/hr helpdesk job thinking it gives them any sort of "skills" beyond "new ways to insult users without them noticing".
Now, I did mention that the current market may require such work... Not because it has any relevance to the desired "real" job, but rather, because of what so many others have pointed out - You don't get a job by sending out resumes, you get a job because you know Bill, and Bill knows Fred, and Fred's sister works in HR at BlobCo, where they need a new entry-level code-monkey. From that position (which, if you tried to get it from a job posting, would still mention 5+ years of a dozen languages, as well as intimate familiarity with every type of networking hardware ever created, even though they just want someone to do VB scripting to access their customer mailing list running on Oracle 7 on an ancient Sparc with a fully redundant backup - Which you can later call "3.5 years of experience with Oracle in a mission-critical clustered environment" for the HR drones), you can work your way up to a real engineer. But the work at a helpdesk in the interim just kept you fed until you met the people needed to actually get a real job.
Now, the above may sound a tad elitist, but I don't mean it as such - I really do appreciate those who can work a helpdesk. But don't delude yourselves into considering that as any sort of entry-level position for a software engineering job.
Start low, study hard (Score:3, Insightful)
Buy some good books and keep yourself studying and learning. At least you'll be able to tell a potential employee that you've studied the theory and are eager to get experience even if you don't already have any.
Fedex (Score:3, Insightful)
Turns out that Fedex only hires within its ranks. So there is essentially no way to get into the Fedex programming core without spending a year delivering packages. After that year, you would be free to transfer to a group that more naturally fit your skills.
Now back to your problem. What exactly, have you looked at? Software Developer postions? Well, no shit, it's fucking hard, asshole. There are a million of us, and a billion of you-unlearned, untrained, unskilled, greenthumbs who think they know what's what but couldn't tell their ass from a hole in the ground. Frankly, it's no wonder you didn't get a job. There's simply too many skilled engineers who are unemployed to waste any spare minutes on someone straight out of school.
My advice is to join ANY company and see where it takes you. Hell, even McD's needs engineers. Who do you think writes the software to calculate "hamburger+softdrink=happymeal"?
There are a million positions wide open and just because you closed your eyes to them doesn't mean they don't exist. Go out and get them, you budding programmer.
Re:Fedex (Score:5, Funny)
"hamburger+softdrink=happymeal"
Even harder than your letting on, apparently.
By my calculation you just fucking jipped me an order of fries and a toy. I bet you'd whine to customers that its always just some "mundane detail" infecting the code, huh?
You can just call me Mike.
Re:Fedex (Score:3, Funny)
"hamburger+softdrink=happymeal"
Even harder than your letting on, apparently.
By my calculation you just fucking jipped me an order of fries and a toy. I bet you'd whine to customers that its always just some "mundane detail" infecting the code, huh?
It's not a bug. It's a calorie reducing feature.
Re:Fedex (Score:3, Funny)
It's not a bug. It's a calorie reducing feature.
Yeah, those plastic toys are loaded with carbs and calories!
Re:Fedex (Score:4, Informative)
advice (Score:2)
People in the art wold have to have a portfolio of their work to get jobs
Go ahead and apply (Score:5, Informative)
I mean, apply everywhere. Any job you think you might possibly be able to do. If you get one nibble for every hundred resumes -- well, these days, in the post-.bomb world, that's not bad.
Also, I don't know if you're still eligible for this since you've graduated, but most schools' CS departments do have lists of available interniships. The money usually isn't great, but it's real experience, and can lead to a full-time position. (Mine did, though I didn't get it through the school.) They may have some formal job placement services for grads, too.
Re:Go ahead and apply (Score:2, Informative)
As someone who hires, I see people applying to every position we have, and I just ignore it. Submitting a resume for a computer scientist to a chemistry lab position or a system admin to a developer position (without any development experience) will get you removed from ALL positions in my world. I'm not looking for mindless and/or desperate people.
Re:Go ahead and apply (Score:2)
Going back some years when Java was new there where a lot of ads for developers in the Uk where if you worked at Sun on oak [vt.edu] then you might have been able to qualify.
It is defiantly the case that what ever job spec is originally written by the time it's been mangled by HR and an agency the requirements will be stupid.
The first job I had was advertis
Re:Go ahead and apply (Score:5, Informative)
But I've said this before [slashdot.org] on Slashdot and I'll say it again. Sending out a one or two page document to some stranger is a piss poor way of getting a job.
If you rely on job postings and resumes, you'll look forever, end up with a mediocre job and less money. Network. You know people and they know people. I said it before, but your aunt's nieghbor's butcher should know who you are, what kind of job you want and that you're available. People who you'd NEVER think of asking for a job suddenly say things like
It works faster and gives you better jobs that pay more. At my last job (in tech, I'm out of the biz now) people would hear my background and my experience and ask how the hell I got the job. Well, 5 years before at a party I had met someone who worked for the company I wanted to work for. I called the host of the party, who I didn't know well at all, got the name of the guy and his number. Called him at home and spoke to him for five minutes.
In my opinion, resumes and job postings are a suckers game.
The magic word is "intern" (Score:5, Insightful)
Lots of companies have internships available because it's a good way for them to get cheap labor that will do grunt work and for the intern to get their foot in the door. After so much time if they like you they hire you.
Find a company you want to work for and call them up and ask if they have internships availablable. These are the kinds of jobs that college students are expected to take as a way to get started in their career.
Ben
Re:The magic word is "intern" (Score:3, Insightful)
One solution... (Score:5, Informative)
My answer was, I took a job with a smaller company where they understood my position but gave me responsibility and room to grow. Of course.. less salary, but it is a good starting position. I once met the "first CIO" in the United States, Duwayne Peterson [cio.com] - his advice was simply to "get your foot in the door" somewhere!
Good luck to you! -6d
Re:One solution... (Score:5, Insightful)
1) opportunity to grow - at a small company everyone does some of everything. You get network, DBA, desktop and coding experience all rolled in to one.
2) you're efforts get noticed and you see results.
3) small companies tend to have close relationships with a few customers. You can get to know and impress your customers and maybe create a new opportunity with one of them.
4) small company may be purchased and you get to join a large company (or lose your job).
Also think about jobs that might not be tech specific. For example, did you minor in econ? Maybe look at business analyst positions or marketing for a tech company. Are you really good at explaining technology to non-tech people? Think about technical sales rep jobs.
If you have any skills and experience outside of the technology world leverage that to find positions you didn't consider before. I'd much rather have a software sales rep that knows technology than one who doesn't.
Best of luck to OP and everyone else looking.
The cutting edge (Score:2)
I graduated April 2003 and I was able to find a fantastic job in what could be termed "corpademia"(half academic/half corporate).
I didn't really study the things mentioned above, so I can't comment on their usefulness. What gave me the experience which got me this job was working part time in a research lab for a professor, in some cases doing research
If you're purely into computer science, remember! (Score:4, Informative)
If you have only minimum quals, you might end up as a sysadmin somewhere for a small network.
If you're not a GOD, and want a good job, then try not to be a pure CS guy. Take up a minor that you like while you're still in school and try to think about how your CS skills can be used in that minor. Eg Civil engineering needs lot of programmers who know some civil engineering. There is a surfiet of programmers in the market who know nothing other than programming lanugages.
Open source (Score:3, Interesting)
Fun with your resume + good references (Score:2)
Also, on your resume, stretch the truth as far as you can, without lying. You know that job where once and a while you did a ipconfig
Re:Fun with your resume + good references (Score:5, Interesting)
When I schedule a technical interview for a candidate, and they arrive, and two minutes into the interview session I realize that this candidate has never done half of the items on their resume (heck, some haven't even bothered to read their resume) I do three things.
1) I end the interview abruptly, inform the candidate that I'm sorry for wasting his time, and send them packing.
2) I throw out every resume I received from whatever source provided me with that resume, call that head-hunter, and let them know that they wasted my time, and the time of my team members who I pulled in for the interview. I not-so-politely let them know that they are black-listed from my group and that I really would appreciate them never contacting me again.
3) I let the other managers I work with in the international, 200k employee company I am part of know both the name of the recruiter and the name of the lying applicant so that they won't be bothered wasting their time in the near future either.
So
For real advice I'd do the following -- by your junior year, find a part-time job someplace doing anything related to your field. Work your ass off, get good grades, apply for a fellowship or research position and get it. Find local contractors who do short-term and part-time work for large companies. Get on a team and get some experience. It really doesn't matter what you do -- make connections with people of influence in your field. Those connections will be your lifeline to meaningful positions as you advance.
Re:Fun with your resume + good references (Score:3, Funny)
Bet you're REEEAL fun to work with.
-Nano.
Please please please (Score:3, Informative)
I politely informed him that the agency had doctored my resume, and then gave hime a copy of my actual resume. He called the headhunter. They exchange some pleasentris such as: "I can't believe your wasting my time" a
Re:Fun with your resume + good references (Score:3, Informative)
I guess what I'm asking is, given that yo
Temp Agencies (Score:4, Interesting)
Once you're in the door start looking around for positions inside the company you're working at.
You're in, you can prove that you have the ability and not just the shiny new piece of paper that says you sat through 4 years of classes which probably taught you nothing that you didn't already know, and then you can see about moving up in the world.
Pick a specialty and pseudo-apprentice (Score:2)
As for Cisco equipment...well, first of all you mention SQL and Cisco in the same sentence...what is it you really want to do? Databases or networking? If you want ot do networking, numerous training firms will cert you on high end networking equipment...you will have to pay to play but you wil
Re:Pick a specialty and pseudo-apprentice (Score:2)
Make sure that's what you want to do. (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, and everyone else will say this, but most of the jobs I've gotten (from ice cream scooper at Baskin' Robbins to the current one), it wasn't what I knew but who I knew. The right references, and the right person speaking up for you when someone mentions an opening, make all the difference. If you aren't outgoing, then at least be pleasant towards those around you whenever possible.
For any man with half an eye... (Score:4, Insightful)
Go to grad school (Score:2)
You're right (Score:2)
Split your time into working, studying/taking classes and learning on your own. Spend time getting to know open source technologies that have enterprise level analogs so that you start to learn fundamentals. If you have multiple switches and PC's, make multiple net
The dot-com era was an aberration (Score:2)
What helped me was being on a 'sandwich-degree' - which includes a year of employed work as part of the degree. Many companies took students on for a year of "industrial training" (internship, co-ops, the name varies by nation) - I worked for IBM. After that year, I went back to university and finish
Co-ops? (Score:2)
I can empathize (Score:4, Insightful)
However, I suspect the way I got this job will end up being the same way I get my next one. I started in this position six years ago. I was in high school at the time. I did some tech work for one of my teachers, and he knew the person running the network here, and hooked me up. Networking is the key. It's not even a bad idea to pass up internship-style jobs. In those jobs, you'll get an incredible amount of experience, though pay is a bit lower than you might like.
Being qualified is equally as important as being known, but being known is what gets you a job. So, while you're waiting for a good job, do some work for people you know. Install cable modems and DSL service. Run antivirus scans. Do small little jobs like that. If you do some work for a small business owner, you might take a look at the systems they're running and say "ya know, I can write an application for you that will do that better." Give them some details, and quote them a price. If you impress them enough, they'll take you up on your offer. You'll find, after a while, that the people you help will say "Wow, you're really bright and talented. I should introduce you to some people." Then they'll point you in the direction of a job.
And in the meantime, you can charge them $30-60 an hour for your regular tech work, even more for your programming work (if you don't just hammer out a contract for the whole job), and have enough money to pay the bills.
internships!!! (Score:2, Insightful)
I interned at a software company for three years during college, which I believe put me on a completely different level than my peers who had no work experience - even though many of them had better grades
You mentioned "Cisco, Exchange, SQL, etc", IT type jobs are the ones getting washed out by grads. If you are serious about becoming a developer, yo
Work for your college (Score:2)
Pirate Software (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Pirate Software (Score:3, Interesting)
Chicken and Egg (Score:3, Interesting)
I and many of my colleagues had predicted the storm would pass by the end of 2003. It's still here, and I'm revising my prediction: without knowing the right people (of which there are few), an entry-level programmer will not be able to get a job that matters (i.e., gives him experience that is at all pertinent to his dream job) until 2010 or later.
Testing (Score:2, Insightful)
What they want, what they get. (Score:2)
Realistically the 'requirements' are more of a wishlist. For full time employees they want someone with the basic skills with a personality to handle the job. (smart, fast learner, plays well with others
I'd apply to these jobs, point out any experience, if you get an interview tell them what you know, and where you want to go.
Nobody ever gets the perfect candidate, just show that you are a good choice.
It's simple... (Score:3, Informative)
Or just twist the facts a little. Doctor your resume. Cook your C.V. Overstate your importance [catb.org].
Or work on Free Software projects and list them all in your resume.
-Jem
Charity or non-profits (Score:2)
No such thing as an entry-level job (Score:5, Interesting)
Because companies don't want to hire people unless they absolutely have to. HR departments are in the business of disqualifying people, not hiring people.
Most of it is due to middle management's inability to understand the concept of hiring entry-level employees and then teaching them the business so they can become valuable members of the company.
Entry-level means:
NO EXPERIENCE.
ZIP.
ZILCH.
NADA.
NULL SET.
ZERO.
NONE.
SPELL IT:
N-O-N-E.
Advertising for an entry-level employee with five years experience is an exercise in flagrant cynicism. It is part of an overall goal of making the workplace a joyless shithole.
Work with your college (Score:2)
Don't forget the power of social networking, either. I was lucky enough to get my "dream job" before I graduated (BSEE) because a friend of a friend was a manager at the company. In fact, that may be the best way to get the job, regardless of your experience.
Thirdly, consider joining the Computer Society of the IEEE and attend the functions,
Sign up (Score:3, Interesting)
Set your expectations... (Score:5, Insightful)
After I graduated, I got a job as a "Remote support consultant" at a software house. I got it because I had UNIX experience (I knew a bit about it, but nothing significant) and showed an interest in learning new things.
That role enabled me to learn lots more about UNIX and then get involved in Cisco, Citrix and other tech that you only typically find in business.
Five years later I'm one of the senior techies and I get to play with all the new interesting things. My general rule of thumb, is that new people are generally only useful after about a year. It takes that long to learn the systems we use. If they show a particular interest in learning, I'll teach them as much as I can. It's the only way to grow decent techies.
Starting at the helpdesk is an excellent starting point, degree or not, because it give you a wide subject knowledge (I'm not referring to call center-type helpdesks). If you're good, you'll be noticed.
Got my first real tech job... (Score:3, Informative)
First, let me tell you: you need to be professional. That means cordial, exchanging pleasantries whenever possible, writing letters, as well as actually calling the human resources department personel and introducing yourself, if not in person. Believe it or not, professionalism will get you a lot further into acquiring a job then just sending out apps and waiting for something to happen.
Second, you gotta start somewhere. Example: banks always need IT support staff, but more often than not they hire internally. Start off as a bank teller. Sure, for a Comp. Sci. college grad it doesn't sound like a lot of money, but the perks are nice and it leaves plenty of room for growth. From experience, companies that have high demands for entry-level programming positions do so because it is easy to filter the qualified from the "they say that they're qualified, but...". It's simply because a company is not going to waste precious hiring-time to see if you can do the kind of work they demand if you've never done that kind of work before.
Or, try for tech support. Again, the pay ain't great, but every TS company has an IT support staff, and at the few I've applied to in the past couple years, all only hire for that internally, because they want someone who knows their systems and demands rather than some joe with an A+ cert. off the street.
Finally, even accept something lower. I did merchandinsing for CocaCola for a couple years, and they hired a lot of staff internally, including their IT support staff (well, if they did not find internally, they looked elsewhere, but the company knew that a lot of their workers are soon-to-be college grads who are looking for more qualified work, and it saves the company a lot of money not to have to advertise the position).
I suppose to sum everything up: climb the ladder. It's not fun, and you have to lower your expectations to start out with, but if you're as qualified as you say you are (and professional, I can't stress that enough), you'll get what you're looking for eventually.
Volunteer (Score:4, Interesting)
If you are highly recommended by one of these organizations after a year or two of volunteering, you can bet that puts you up the ladder of resumes. It doesn't mean you worked 8 hours a day every day fo the week. While not working there, work wherever you can to make ends meet.
Talk to some professors (Score:5, Informative)
If I hadn't ended up traveling the China to study abroad, the professor was also planning to give me a system admin job for the department he managed.
The main thing is to keep your eyes open and talk to people. Talk to some professors you know and like, ask them if they could hire you to do some work (paid work looks better than volunteer on a resume I think, because it shows that the work you were doing was really valuable to someone.) Or if they don't have the money or need, ask them if any of their coworkers do. Don't just ask the comp. sci. department either, talk to all of your professors.
If no one you know needs help, go talk to your schools job search assistance center. They can help you look for something on campus that will help you fill out your resume before you graduate.
And of course, look for something that you will like, that is really important. If you are interested in the work, you will do better work, and then when your first post-graduation employer calls for a reference you will be remembered as a happy active employee.
As times change, so must we (Score:3, Insightful)
There are times, like now, when the market is lean. I remember when I was 17, being unable to get a job at McDonalds, Taco Bell or any number of super markets due to insufficient experience. It so happened that all the jobs in entry positions were taken where I was. Merely being an honor student with club activities didn't demonstrate much. Perseverance paid off, and I finally found a job that taught me a variety of skills-- namely cooking, cleaning and running the register.
When the market is lean, you don't find the job you want, you find one that will let you dabble in what you like. Maybe you find a mom and pop or a startup that needs something you can do, but don't want to, and also needs something you want to do, but can't afford to pay someone full time to do. In three years, you'll have that part-time experience in the real world, which is better than someone fresh out of college with only what you had three years ago. Of course, if the economy picks up, or otherwise you find a good job before then, you've been able to pay the rent.
Networking also helps, be it through user groups or church or maybe your old college professors. Often a relationship that involves trust, demonstrating how dependable you are, one that prompts conversations that end with, "...[s]he really pulled me through that tough spot" can get you some interviews your resume wouldn't.
how to get started (Score:3, Insightful)
Out of more than a dozen tech jobs I've held, I only ever got ONE though job listings, and that was because I was living in a backwater place at the time and the company had few applicants. All the rest were by knowing someone at the company (directly or indirectly). You don't necessarily have to know them well; a casual acquaintance is enough to get your foot in the door.
The companies DON'T CARE whether you can find a job or not. There are too many IT people on the market, so they can afford to only hire people with a lot of experience even for an entry level position. They believe (correctly or not) that if they get someone with less experience it will cost them more money.
If you really want to stick with this career path, you need to find a company through friends, friends of friends, etc., that needs someone, possibly part time or as a consultant, and almost certainly for substandard pay. Work up from there.
one word (Score:3, Funny)
If you need some experience in this area prior to graduating from college, join a frat.
Max
Let This Guy Be an Example (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, it's not easy to find the right place to work. You need somewhere that's going to be willing to let you learn AND give you responsibility. I started off the summer before freshman year of high school working for a company doing fairly simple database stuff. That quickly progressed into a demanding database programming and design position from which I was able to gain much experience and client contacts I have used as references. That job morphed into networking, implementing things in very specific ways where there was a lot of on the job learning. I spent a solid four years there doing all of this. By the time I left there, my resume was so long that when I applied for another job, my age was actually questioned due to the wide variety of skills mentioned on my resume. And no, they didn't think I was lying on my resume, as they questioned me about the things on it and hired me.
Moral of the story: Work, work, work. It's just as, if not more, important as your formal school education.
Make a job (Score:3, Insightful)
Do you have hobbies? Try writing software that can be used in your hobby. Like building handmade birdhouses? Write a program to calculate how much wood you'll need for projects and how much it'll cost. That kind of thing. The software itself doesn't have to be very useful, but it will accomplish two things: it keeps you developing and improves your skills and it gives you something interesting to talk about when you finally get an interview and makes you look productive.
Employers hiring for entry level positions won't expect much in the way of experience, but they will want someone who can work in a team and is motivated and smart. You'll probably find it easier to improve in that area rather than getting useful development experience quickly.
Looking for a job is a job in itself ... (Score:5, Informative)
I got my Bachelor's in CS in May 2003. I didn't graduate a Top 10 Ivy League school, or have a particularly good GPA, so I knew it was going to be very hard. I looked around for jobs for a while, went on a few interviews, but I had no clue on how to pass interviews, or how to write a resume. So, money was very scarce and I needed some kind of job.
So I got a job - I don't even want to say what it was, it wasn't programming for sure. I worked there for 8 hours a day, and then I went to my friend's office to help him set up his business - both software and hardware, and then I came home, practiced programming and sent out resumes. I read programming books on the train everywhere, as well.
After a while, I got really lucky - a family friend agreed to help me with my resume, and I realized how much it sucked. There's way too little space here and I don't have the time to say everything I want to say about the resume, but here's a few basic pointers.
Make it absolutely clear what kind of job you are looking for. Don't put there things that would indicate that basically, you would agree to any job in an IT field.
Put concrete things on your resume, that show that you know what the hell you're talking about. So instead of 'Programmed a Java', write 'Used Java to design and develop an inventory management application, utilizing Swing for front-end and JDBC to interact with Sybase database.' People that search through resumes on Monster.com or Dice.com don't look for 'Java', they look for Swing, JSP, JDBC - etc.
Don't lie. At least, don't flat out lie - everyone expects your resume to paint a little better picture than you actually are, but don't put blatant lies like 4 years of Unix experience while your Unix experience has been limited to checking your college mail at campus network (guilty).
Keep track of where you send your resume, what position, and what version of your resume. Nothing fancy, simple Notepad file will do. But it saves you a lot of valuale time while searching for a job.
Interviews - again, there are tomes written on this subject, but basic pointers again: SHOW YOUR ENTHUSIASM. Ask questions that show that you understend and are genuinely interested in the subject. The word "no" should NOT come out of your mouth. Of course, again, you shouldn't flat out lie - but if someone ask's you if you know skill X, instead of 'No', you should say "I've heard about it, but didn't have the opportunity to work with it professionally.. however, I'm a very fast learner and will pick up very fast"
The money question. The correct response to 'How much money do you want?' is "Money is really not that important to me, if the job is interesting and challenging, I would be happy with any reasonable offer." If they ask you to name a number, name a range. DON'T UNDERVALUE YOURSELF. If the job pays $40K and you say you'll be willing to do it for $25K, the alarm bell immediately rings in your interviewer's head - if this guy is so desperate to do this job for $25K, he must be a loser. Next!
So, in conclusion, looking for a job is a VERY HARD job in itself. You have to pay attention to every small detail and work very hard to succeed. In my case, after 10 months it finally paid off - I was offered a full time position and now happily working for a major financial company, with a salary almost twice as large as an average entry-level CS graduate.
QA/Test/Support (Score:4, Interesting)
The key is once you get into these roles work yourself out of them and into better positions. If you try to whine, complain, or brag yourself out of them it won't work.
It's also important these be small companies or small departments -- large companies usually don't care if Junior Support Technician #2679 is performing in the 98th percentile this week.
Get a job at your univ! (Score:3, Informative)
Medium-sized schools or bigger tend to be pretty well equipped, even if it's not readily visible (does you school have labs spread across multiple buildings, dorm-networking, wireless???)
I leveraged that into a good IT engineering position, and beyond.
Get in with your UCS/ACS/OIT/Whatever it's called, department, and you can learn a heck of a lot.
-buf
The blank resume... (Score:3, Interesting)
First, let me be clear... no prior work experience doesn't mean we hire people with no talent. It's just that we don't count of a long resume as an indication that someone is without merit. That's just laziness (or necessity, time being money in the hiring process).
What we look for is someone who knows what they are doing and can demonstrate that to is in their resume cover letter, and ultimately at one of our interviews. We won't ask any of the stupid Microsoft questions except to see if you've been to the web site that has the answers accumulated (grin). But we will put you through a tough interview that focues on your ability to write code. If you can do that, it's a walk in the park. If you can't, we'll both know it's not a match real quick. But we'll still take ya to lunch, our treat.
One thing I've learned over the last 15 years... a resume is a damn poor indication of someone's talent. Therefore, if you ever want to apply for a job with us, go ahead and incude a resume but be damn sure you spent the time to make a cover letter that sells yourself. This will probably be true of any place you try to get hired on. (isclaimer: I've never really had to send a resume or go on an interview, but I've interviewed and hired hundreds over the years. So I can only speak to my experience directly.
In my case, I read resumes only if the cover letter intrigues me. A good cover letter should skip the pretence ("Seeking growth opportunities where I can apply my extensive education in bladibla..."). Save it. Just tell me how you code your butt off doing the kinds of things we do, and it might be cool to see if there is something we're doing that you'd like to be part of. Some examples of the stuff you've done is a huge win. Talk the talk. You're cover letter is being read by coders.
For me, I also like to see what areas an applicant wants to learn more about. We strive to find raw talent and give them a chance to really learn in the trenches. We've trained a lot of coders and 3D Artists, fresh out of college (or still in college) and continue to today. It's fun, rewarding and a way for us to give back.
So, yes, there are places you can get a job without experience. And have a blast doing cool stuff at the same time. I think there should be more, personally.
We're even hiring now, if anyone's in the market, email me and I'll turn you onto the right place to inquire.
Apply anyway (Score:4, Insightful)
Internships (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I could tell you... (Score:5, Insightful)
Your attitude displays an astonishing lack of maturity--if you are good at your job, you will want mentor others and pass along your knowledge and skills.
If you are weak, perhaps that explains your concern about being replaced?
Re:I could tell you... (Score:4, Interesting)
Ha, I wish - I'd welcome the help - it seems impossible to find quality unix admins who know linux well - usually we get some joker in here who plasters his resume with buzzwords, but in reality never uses anything but windows - we quickly find out he's a phony and show him the door. There are some real linux savvy folks out there, but they are hard to find among all the posers...
Re:Volunteer (Score:2)
Maybe if you've got some decent savings stashed away, but otherwise I can't really see it at that point in someone's life.