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UML, PostgreSQL Get Corporate Support

timothy posted about 10 years ago | from the what's-good-for-'em dept.

Businesses 213

tcopeland writes "An article on NewsForge highlights some changes in the upcoming PostgreSQL release (v7.5) that are funded by Fujitsu. PostgreSQL core team member Josh Berkus says that "Tablespaces, Nested Transactions, and Java support" are being underwritten by Fujitsu; this has also been mentioned on the postgresql-hackers list. He also says that 7.5 will be "...the most significant new release of the software since version 7.0 almost four years ago". Good times for PostgreSQL users!" And ggoebel writes "Jeff Dike posted a notice to the UML [User-mode Linux] developers mailing list: 'The first bit of news is that as of last Monday, I am working for Intel. They generously offered a full-time position, off-site, with my time mostly spent on UML. This basically means that UML is no longer a part-time, after-hours thing for me, so we should start seeing more work happening on it, especially compared to the last month or two.'"

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213 comments

Good (1)

Aliencow (653119) | about 10 years ago | (#9584053)

Good to see PostgreSQL getting some attention !

If only our application here didn't cost millions to develop and wasn't dependant on MS SQL...

Re:Good (1)

Timesprout (579035) | about 10 years ago | (#9584151)

If only our application here didn't cost millions to develop and wasn't dependant on MS SQL...

Then you probably would not have a job there would you.

Re:Good (1)

Aliencow (653119) | about 10 years ago | (#9584233)

I'm not a coder :-)

Re:Good (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584749)

Then you probably would not have a job there would you.

It's strange you should mention that but, unlike the previous poster, my employer hasn't spent anything on MS SQL and yet miraculously I still have a job! So it can happen.

Re:Good (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584462)

Same with ours.

Although recently one of our employees demo'd a "clone" (not of all the features, but enough to show it's real) of our system ported to PostgreSQL.

It's being considered for some new (possibly lower margin, so free is good) products in the product family.

The old "pgadmin II" tool had a useful migration tool, so other than stored procedures, the upgrade from MSsqlserver to PostgreSQL is supposedly quite smooth. That tool is still available [postgresql.org] but is hard to find because the newer pgadmin III doesn't (yet) have the migration feature.

GUI Tools (3, Interesting)

Bilbo (7015) | about 10 years ago | (#9584679)

I just started using pgadmin3, and I have a feeling I have a way to go before I get really good at it. I could really use a migration tool since, as with the previous poster, we have a lot of SQL Server based applications I'd like to see moved to something like PostgreSQL.

Frankly, I still like the old TCL based "pgaccess". It was buggy as all get out, and really bogged down on larger databases, but it had some really nice tools such as the visual query designer.

The article mentions a couple of other GUI tools for accessing and maintaining PostgreSQL databases. Has anyone else used these, or are there other tools that people like?

Re:Good (0, Offtopic)

Not The Real Me (538784) | about 10 years ago | (#9584768)

When I search for PostgreSQL and MySQL jobs on monster.com, hotjobs and careerbuilder, there are very few positions listed.

However, search for MSSQL or Oracle jobs, that's a whole different story.

I hear alot of open source advocates spouting off about PostgreSQL and MySQL but I don't see alot of movement in the job market.

Re:Good-Postgres and SQL Server (2, Interesting)

randall_burns (108052) | about 10 years ago | (#9584959)

I'm a SQL Server DBA [outlander.com] and Python/Perl/Postgresql developer.

My sense is that it would be possible to extend Postgres to have a mode fully compatible with Oracle and/or Microsoft SQL Server. What this might mean is having SQL interpreters fully compatible with the quirks of Oracle and SQL Server-identical system tables available and identical libraries. I think Oracle will be the first target here because Oracle licensing fees are much higher than SQL Server--and parts of SQL Server are harder to re-engineer(i.e. DTS and some of the scheduling stuff).

Databases are a great Open Source target because scripts are open _and_ customers frequently control their data file format.

UML is pretty awesome (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584075)

It's really the future of "shared" webhosting because it balances the power of a full server against the cost of a shared one. Some hosts like JVDS [jvds.com] and RimuHosting [rimuhosting.com] are already doing this and it's great.

Re:UML is pretty awesome (1)

kanthoney (80093) | about 10 years ago | (#9584185)

...also Bytemark [bytemark.co.uk] and Memset [memset.co.uk] in the UK.

Re:UML is pretty awesome (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584206)

I guess no modelling language is complete until it can host webpages...

Re:UML is pretty awesome (5, Interesting)

gtrubetskoy (734033) | about 10 years ago | (#9584209)

It's really the future of "shared" webhosting because it balances the power of a full server against the cost of a shared one.

I respecfully disagree. While UML gives you excellent isolation, it is an extremely inefficient way to virtualize your server since it does not take advantage (by design) of all the optimizations that UN*X provides. UML is great for kernel developers and applications where isolation is far more important than performance.

In Linux virtual server hosting, the future will be Linux VServer Project [linux-vserver.org]

(ok, I'm somewhat biased, I admit)

Re:UML is pretty awesome (2, Insightful)

drinkypoo (153816) | about 10 years ago | (#9584347)

Linux VServer might be the future, but the documentation is so far in the past, we'll never know.

Why are Wikis always touted as the solution to documentation, yet every time I try to find useful information in some project Wiki, it is always useless?

Ahh, there's a paper on VServers. Sounds kind of like jails with more separation. However, the filesystem separation of UML is a feature. VServers are good for completely managed hosting, I'm sure, but UML is the answer to people who want to get whole machines. Instead of leasing a computer to someone, you can lease a UML instance, and no matter what they do to it, they (in theory) cannot cause problems for anyone else.

Re:UML is pretty awesome (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584410)

you can lease a UML instance, and no matter what they do to it, they (in theory) cannot cause problems for anyone else.

That's one view of it. But consider that customers who pay for a hosting service are not out there to cause problems. They want the fastest service for the smallest price. The issue with UML hosting is that you cannot put nearly as many UML's on a single box as you would in VServer/Jail set up, and the end result is going to be that your service will be slower and more expensive.

Re:UML is pretty awesome (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584436)

There are plenty of "customers" out to cause problems. There are many that will take advantage of anything they can if it'll benefit them, regardless of how it affects the rest of the people using the server. I browsed some of the VServer hosts, and they all seemed more expensive than the UML host I have.

Re:UML is pretty awesome (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584591)

I was under the impresssion that UML was not a airtight security solution. That is, if someone wants to cause a problem, they could.

Re:UML is pretty awesome (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584661)

I don't work on the project, so I can't really say for sure, but I was under the impression that that was the goal. It's still pretty new, so I wouldn't be shocked if there were a way to crash things or whatever, but from what I've seen, you really are pretty isolated.

Re:UML is pretty awesome (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584583)

I have to aggree the vserver hosts do seem to be more expensive to the UML hosts.

I have also not seen a vserver control panel that can surpass the ones created by uml hosts, like the ones available at linode.com

Adam

Re:UML is pretty awesome (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584962)

I have to aggree the vserver hosts do seem to be more expensive to the UML hosts.

Are you sure you are not confusing VServer hosts [linux-vserver.org] with Virtuozzo [sw-soft.com] hosts such as GlobalServer or Spry? Virtuozzo costs several thousand dollars per server (even though VServer is slowly outnumbering it in number of features), so no wonder they are more expensive, though it does come with a nice control panel.

Re:UML is pretty awesome (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584407)

I think i like UML's way of doing it better (it allows for lots of different distributions to be installed)

Re:UML is pretty awesome (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584491)

linode.com [linode.com] offers UML-based hosting as well. [no, i neither work there or use them]

Re:UML is pretty awesome (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584493)

... also Linode.com [linode.com] , which has the largest deployment of UML.

Re:UML is pretty awesome (1)

rfinnvik (16122) | about 10 years ago | (#9584575)

Hopefully UML can compete with GSX/ESX server from VMware - at least for linux-only hosting.

Would be interesting to see some comparative performance analysis.

We had some IBM people over, showing ESX server running on an xSeries 445. Seemed pretty sweet :) Could really cut down on hardware costs.

That's all fine and dandy, but... (2, Interesting)

Mr. Spontaneous (784926) | about 10 years ago | (#9584076)

'The first bit of news is that as of last Monday, I am working for Intel. They generously offered a full-time position, off-site, with my time mostly spent on UML. This basically means that UML is no longer a part-time, after-hours thing for me, so we should start seeing more work happening on it, especially compared to the last month or two.'

Will this mean that Intel might have a chance to influence its development? The true benefit of projects such as this is their independence from the big brother corporations who attempt to control the industry/market.

fun and games... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584149)

Its all fun and games until someone loses an eye... then its just fun you can't see

Re:That's all fine and dandy, but... (4, Interesting)

jbolden (176878) | about 10 years ago | (#9584218)

Well obviously if they are funding development then they will have influence on what gets worked on. What political agenda do you see Intel as likely to have on advancing user mode? It would seem to me that this is fairly typical of Intel software devleopment for the last 15 years -- making sure that there is publically available code highlighting how to do cool things with their CPUs.

Re:That's all fine and dandy, but... (5, Insightful)

SIGALRM (784769) | about 10 years ago | (#9584268)

The true benefit of projects such as this is their independence from the big brother corporations

You mean like Sun and HP funding the Apache group [apache.org] ?

Or Novell and Ximian underwriting the Mono Project [mono-project.com] ?

Or IBM contributing to F/OSS [ibm.com] ?

Do you think these and other projects would be where they are today without the backing of serious money/resources?

Re:That's all fine and dandy, but... (3, Insightful)

Mr. Spontaneous (784926) | about 10 years ago | (#9584349)

I just think that, with the funding, the projects are encouraged in a certain direction. This isn't always bad, but seeing something with a "Optimized for the Pentium 4" logo always makes me wonder what would have happened if it didnt have this funding. (I would say the same thing if it was optimized for AMD)...

Re:That's all fine and dandy, but... (2, Insightful)

bfields (66644) | about 10 years ago | (#9584468)

I just think that, with the funding, the projects are encouraged in a certain direction. This isn't always bad, but seeing something with a "Optimized for the Pentium 4" logo always makes me wonder what would have happened if it didnt have this funding.

You've seen free software projects with "Optimized for the Pentium 4" on them?

I think people may not realize the extent to which free software development is already corporate-funded.

--Bruce Fields

Re:That's all fine and dandy, but... (1)

Bilbo (7015) | about 10 years ago | (#9584745)

> the projects are encouraged in a certain direction.

True enough, but isn't the major advantage of F/OSS that, even if company Foo wants to pour money into developing feature "X", if I want feature "Y", I can still develop that on my own? Granted, it might take more time, and it might even be more difficult, but I'm still free to build any extensions I want, as long as I have the time and resources. Company Foo doesn't "own" the project. They just get to encourage people to develop features they need faster than they might have been developed otherwise...

Re:That's all fine and dandy, but... (3, Interesting)

cleverhandle (698917) | about 10 years ago | (#9584500)

Loosen up that tinfoil hat, man. This is a pretty natural project for Intel to invest in. Improved User Mode Linux leads naturally to more shared servers, as others have detailed. And, in the interest of efficiency, those shared server operators will be interested in nice, juicy processors to allow more virtual servers on the same piece of physical hardware.

Sounds like a simple business investment to me - no need to search for conspiracies here.

clarification please... (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584085)

UML ....

(1) Unified Modeling Language?

or (2) User Mode Linux?

Methinks (2), given that I work alot with (1) and have never heard of Jeff Dike

Re:clarification please... (0)

mastergoon (648848) | about 10 years ago | (#9584118)

User Mode Linux...check the link in the article...

Re:clarification please... (3, Funny)

mrwiggly (34597) | about 10 years ago | (#9584130)

Sheesh, click on the link! It's user mode linux.

Re:clarification please... (1)

Dr. Descartes (673148) | about 10 years ago | (#9584162)

You're right. It's #2 [sourceforge.net] .

Re:clarification please... (1)

Short Circuit (52384) | about 10 years ago | (#9584341)

Ye gods, that guy needs help [sourceforge.net] .

I've never been a professional software developer, but considering things "mysteriously fixed" doesn't seem like an appropriate strategy. Shouldn't someone go back to old code versions (via CVS) and try to reproduce some of these things?

Also, from the sound of it, he's not getting much support from people who report bugs.

Re:clarification please... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584890)

Me too. I've never heard of "alot" either, at least not anywhere that respects spelling.

-read the article summary- please (1)

SuperBanana (662181) | about 10 years ago | (#9584976)

Jeff Dike posted a notice to the UML [User-mode Linux]

That's straight from the slashdot blurb. Talk about lazy, JHC...

Good to Hear... (-1, Troll)

Dozix007 (690662) | about 10 years ago | (#9584088)

It is good to hear PostgreSQL is maturing.. the primary DB System for so long has been MySQL. PHP coders don't have too much for an alternative, if you anyone is interested in secure SQL programming (with PHP) check out Uberhacker.Com [uberhacker.com]

Re:Good to Hear... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584137)

BTW, that site is crap, nothing useful on it ...

Re:Good to Hear... (4, Informative)

Twirlip of the Mists (615030) | about 10 years ago | (#9584229)

the primary DB System for so long has been MySQL. PHP coders don't have too much for an alternative

Au contraire, there are PHP interfaces for PostgreSQL, Oracle, Sybase, and MSSQL built right in to the source distribution. I seem to recall that back in the Bad Old Days before Mac OS X, when you had to compile things yourself, building PHP with all the necessary libraries was a huge pain, but now it's a trivial thing. Marc Liyanage maintains a PHP module package [entropy.ch] that snaps right into the built-in Apache web server on your Mac, and it already has most of the necessary bells and whistles [entropy.ch] built in.

Re:Good to Hear... (1)

ajs (35943) | about 10 years ago | (#9584480)

Yeah, this is definitely a win. However, you're going to find that most small Web applications are going to run in a hosted environment which will probably provide MySQL as a default database.

Still, the interface should be the same in your PHP code, so you don't really care what the back-end is unless you're doing something funky. I'm just glad to see more and more open source databases getting play.

Re:Good to Hear... (3, Insightful)

nojomofo (123944) | about 10 years ago | (#9584242)

the primary DB System for so long has been MySQL.

Care to qualify that statement? Ever hear of Oracle? Or DB2 or SQL Server or Sybase or...?

Re:Good to Hear... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584319)

PostgreSQL is years ahead of mySQL. And on that note, I've been using PHP with PostgreSQL since 1999. Works much better than mySQL.

Re:Good to Hear... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584793)

test

Solid stuff, that PostgreSQL... (5, Interesting)

tcopeland (32225) | about 10 years ago | (#9584099)

...RubyForge [rubyforge.org] has been running on it for almost a year now, no problems.

Only a half million records and only about 75K queries a day, so it's not a huge DB... but it's definitely getting the job done.

Re:Solid stuff, that PostgreSQL... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584953)

I'm curious: What replication method is RubyForge using? Or is it single machine? I'm looking for a replication method for PostgreSQL and am leaning towards commandprompt.com's solution, unless someone says otherwise.

Re:Solid stuff, that PostgreSQL... (1)

tcopeland (32225) | about 10 years ago | (#9585038)

> Or is it single machine?

Yup, just a single machine. We've talked about using replication for a hot backup, but for now, a simple nightly pg_dumpall is enough.

> commandprompt.com's solution

Yup, that looks like a good one, and the price isn't bad either - $1K.

UML is no longer a part-time, after-hours thing (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584113)

This basically means that UML is no longer a part-time, after-hours thing for me

You have my deepest sympathy.

UML (5, Informative)

Un pobre guey (593801) | about 10 years ago | (#9584115)

OK, UML is User Mode Linux [sourceforge.net] . Got it. No, no, I'm not confused, I get the coincidence with the other extremely widespread use of the acronym. No prob, Dude.

UML (2, Informative)

lorcha (464930) | about 10 years ago | (#9584116)

Who the hell is Jeff Dike and why is he working on the Unified Modeling Language [uml.org] ? And why does Intel care about it?

Oh, you meant User-mode Linux? Well, why didn't you say so? Sometimes I think these writeups are intentionally confusing.

Re:UML (2, Interesting)

timothy (36799) | about 10 years ago | (#9584245)

Lorcha --

You're right; I'd meant to parse the name and add in a link (as I now have done) to the project's web page.

timothy

Re:UML (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584307)

That's nice, but perhaps you could write out the words "User-Mode Linux" in the blurb?

Re:UML (3, Funny)

Ignignot (782335) | about 10 years ago | (#9584360)

Egad, a slashdot editor has apologized for giving an incomplete story blurb! Did I cross over into... The Twilight Zone?

Thanks timothy

predict 50 comments on this thread (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584135)

no controversy no M$ no SCO no flaimbate - this does not deserve front page. -1 (troll|flaimbate|redundante|offtopic|overrated) here i come.

yet another corepirate nazi felon 'kiss' of debt? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584138)

tell 'em robbIE?

UML Support? (0, Troll)

192939495969798999 (58312) | about 10 years ago | (#9584139)

Does anyone know of a chart regarding current DB providers and their respective UML adoption level? (i.e. "db2 supports it, xyzDB doesn't)

I WANT TO SHIT IN COWBOY NEAL'S EAR!!!!!!!! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584143)

So EVERYONE can hear the SQUISH!!!!!! GO Luuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuunix!!!!!!!

Table spaces? (5, Interesting)

AKAImBatman (238306) | about 10 years ago | (#9584163)

Does this mean that PostGreSQL will actually be able to write *directly* to disk cluster? That would be one serious performance boost! My only request is that they do us all a favor and make sure that we can fragment the tables across spaces. It tends to suck when one table fills an entire drive, and it refuses to use all the space on the other drives.

Re:Table spaces? (5, Informative)

jadavis (473492) | about 10 years ago | (#9584294)

"Tablespaces" allow you to put individual tables on different storage devices. Prior to tablespaces, an entire database had to be on one device*.

You are referring to two completely different technologies:

(1) "Writing directly to disk cluster" - By that you seem to mean direct disk access, not through the filesystem. I don't even think this is part of the PostgreSQL TODO, because there is just not a very strong need. Are you experiencing performance problems in this regard?

(2) "fragment tables across spaces" - By that you mean "Table Partitioning". That allows you to break up a single table across multiple storage devices. That would be very valuable technology, but as far as I know, won't make 7.5.

If all these features really work out for 7.5, they should call the release 8.0, and maybe they will.

*: There are some tricks you can use if you need to move a single table to a different device prior to 7.5. I think symlinks work fine, but if it's important, I'd wait for 7.5 or ask on the -general list to make sure it's correct.

Re:Table spaces? (1)

AKAImBatman (238306) | about 10 years ago | (#9584638)

Here I was hoping that we could replace Oracle. Ah well, good news none the less. Thanks for the info. :-)

Re:Table spaces? (4, Informative)

GooberToo (74388) | about 10 years ago | (#9584816)

"Tablespaces" allow you to put individual tables on different storage devices. Prior to tablespaces, an entire database had to be on one device*.

Strictly speaking, that's not true. You can move things around manually, and some have done so, but it's not pretty, not easy, and not easy to maintain. Implementation of tablespaces in PostgreSQL simply allows its users to easily do what was previously an arcane-voodoo art. So clearly, it's a big step up. But, you already knew that. ;)

"Writing directly to disk cluster" - By that you seem to mean direct disk access, not through the filesystem. I don't even think this is part of the PostgreSQL TODO, because there is just not a very strong need. Are you experiencing performance problems in this regard?

That's correct. AFAIK, there is no desire to implement raw partition support. The speed difference is minimal and the required code is large. Basically, you wind up writing a FS and associated buffer management into the database. The return generally is not very high. It used to be, many years ago. These days, filesystem technology and implementations are plenty fast. Those that want raw partition access, IMO, are simply living in the past.

If all these features really work out for 7.5, they should call the release 8.0, and maybe they will.

You are correct. Accordingly to the list, the numbering constantly goes back and forth. From what i gather, they are waiting to see what features actually make it in. Depending on the scope of changes, they'll then determine the version number. As a rule of thumb, people are calling it 7.5, simply because nothing else has been blessed.

Please don't think I'm correcting what you've said. You've said nothing that I disagree with. I'm simply adding a followup remark. ;)

Cheers!

Re:Table spaces? (2, Informative)

rgigger (637061) | about 10 years ago | (#9584317)

No it does not write directly to the disk cluster if you mean that it can write to a raw unformatted disk. They want to get all of the nice buffering for free from the os because they can't beat it's performance yet. Writing directly to the raw disk would slow it down right now. They are going to reconsider this if someone can write a caching system that can beat the os but so far that hasn't happened.

They also do not have table partioning. It has been discussed and it is a high priority feature but it doesn't seem like anyone has seriously tried to tackle it yet. I'm guessing that it will be on the radar for the next release though.

Tablespaces basically just lets you partition your db across different volumes but a single table cannot be split up.

I am not a developer but this is what I have gleaned from the hackers list.

Re:Table spaces? (4, Insightful)

jadavis (473492) | about 10 years ago | (#9584430)

They are going to reconsider this if someone can write a caching system that can beat the os but so far that hasn't happened.

It's a little more complicated I think. Using the filesystem has other advantages as well:

(1) PostgreSQL can work well with other applications running. Let's say you invent the best caching algorithm possible, then you still have two seperate caches, one for PostgreSQL and one for everything else. That means you have to dedicate the machine to PostgreSQL and have a high PostgreSQL cache (but any other app will suffer), or give postgres a low amount of cache space and it will suffer.

(2) The postgres developers don't want to worry about the bugs involved in making their own filesystem. Also, who's to say they can make a filesystem as fast right off the bat? It might be a huge development effort, with relatively minor benefit for most people.

Re:Table spaces? (1)

brlewis (214632) | about 10 years ago | (#9585086)

Plus using the existing file system lets PostgreSQL run under user-mode linux.

Demo from my linode [brlewis.com]

I'm a programmer (3, Insightful)

Tim C (15259) | about 10 years ago | (#9584221)

I suspect a lot of people here are. To me, and probably to most of them, UML is Unified Modelling Language. Hell, do a google search [google.co.uk] for UML and the top hit is to the UML website [uml.org] .

I know it's too much to ask OSS projects not to pick confusing acronyms and names, but I'd like to think that story submitters or at least editors could a little clearer.

Re:I'm a programmer (1)

platos_beard (213740) | about 10 years ago | (#9584626)

Normally, I think its reasonable to expect readers to figure out which UML or which ASP (to name two overloaded acronyms) from the context, but putting UML in a headline with a database strongly suggested to me that the UML is not the one that it turned out to be. Spelling out "user mode linux" would have been nice, but hey, the most anybody was hurt is that they wasted some time.

Wasted time. Slashdot. Hmmm....

Re:I'm a programmer (1)

cduffy (652) | about 10 years ago | (#9584955)

Slashdot also has lots of systems-level types, for whom user mode linux is a damn powerful tool but who often don't hold with that whole modeling-language idea.

No real reason to cater to one audiance over the other -- I think it's perfectly reasonable for folks to actually (say) check what the UML link points at and run from context.

Excellent with large record sets (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584223)

In our experience, pgSql proved to be excelent when used with large record sets (100M+). Indeed, 7.5 should be a very exciting release.

Well, (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584225)

Does it use XML?

Good tools out there for PostgreSQL.... (3, Informative)

tcopeland (32225) | about 10 years ago | (#9584243)

...some on PGFoundry [pgfoundry.org] , some still on GBorg [postgresql.org] .

PLUG: For example, there's this little SQL query analysis [postgresql.org] utility!

Re:Good tools out there for PostgreSQL.... (0)

GooberToo (74388) | about 10 years ago | (#9585006)

Great link to the SQL query analysis tool!

Thanks!

All Welcome and expected - expect more.. (4, Insightful)

eamacnaghten (695001) | about 10 years ago | (#9584249)

This is great news, not only for the projects involved, but for FOSS in general.

Also this is consistent with the Open Source Paradigm. Where it is in the interests of companies to improve the software, and the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages of them not being exclusive. It is this philosophy, in my opinion, that will beat proprietary software models such as Microsoft, and it is these companies that are key in stopping those who want to halt the advancments of FOSS using idiotic patents and other invalid IP arguments.

OLAP still missing... (3, Interesting)

zeux (129034) | about 10 years ago | (#9584255)

I'm really looking for an OLAP implementation on PostgreSQL... It's getting more an more important but it's still not there!

I made my company switch from SQL Server to PostgreSQL but now I have to export data every day from PostgreSQL to SQL Server just to get my OLAP reports!

As soon as OLAP is there I'll definitely get rid of SQL Server.

Re:OLAP still missing... (2, Insightful)

GileadGreene (539584) | about 10 years ago | (#9584547)

I love PostgreSQL. I support Open Source. But I have to say: perhaps you shouldn't have forced a switch to PostgreSQL if it didn't actually meet all of your (and more importantly your company's) needs. Sounds like SQL Server was the better solution in this case.

Re:OLAP still missing... (1)

GooberToo (74388) | about 10 years ago | (#9584835)

I would love to hear move comments about what OLAP features are missing, as it relates to your requirements. OLAP is a topic which comes up from time to time but real world use is often not offered.

Keep in mind that I am not an OLAP guy, so you may need to talk down to me. ;)

Cheers!

Re:OLAP still missing... (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9585019)

In order to make it in the OLAP or DSS world in a big way Postgres needs to get a parallel query engine. Tablespaces is a step in the right direction b/c it will allow increased I/O by making it easier to bring more physical devices into play. When you start doing this though you are gonna need to be able to throw more than one thread at each query which Postgres currently can't do to my understanding.

FYI I really love Postgres.

PostgreSQL is much better than mySQL (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584266)

PostgreSQL needs more advertising. Most people don't even know that mySQL doesn't even have decent data integrity support, see http://sql-info.de/mysql/gotchas.html [sql-info.de]

Re:PostgreSQL is much better than mySQL (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584761)

Never mind the fact that for most web applications (which is the majority of MySQL installations) most people don't need true data integrity support.

Postgres is kicking butt (5, Interesting)

johnnyb (4816) | about 10 years ago | (#9584330)

and taking names. In addition to Fujitsu's additions, they are also doing point-in-time recovery. They have multiple replication solutions. It's an absolutely wonderful database to develop for.

It's got several really cool features, such as the ability to create your own index types, the ability to create your own column types, the ability to create rules for updating views, and a lot of other things that make it an absolute joy to work with.

The only thing I don't like about it is that it needs the ability to read bytea's as if they were BLOBs. Then life would be perfect!

From Fujitsu's pile, tablespaces is the most interesting feature I see - and that's actually pretty cool. That's one of the things that really allows you to realize the logical/physical separation that relational databases promise.

This rules! (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584353)

I'm loading more than half a million records into a Postgres db on my iBook as I write this, and I gotta say that pgsql is cool as hell. The data type support alone (polygons?!?!) makes it worth the small amount of extra effort it takes to get it up and running.

Postgres flat blows away MySQL in every way I can thnk of except for the fact that one has to "manually" vacuum (cleanup + reindex) the db ... but that's what cron is for. The only things I miss from my MSSQL days is the ability to do on-the-fly data type changes on columns; this is actually a good thing because now I'm not so lazy about designing the db right in the first place. ;-)

If you're out there playing with MySQL or MSSQL, you owe it to yourself to give Postgres a shot.

Re:This rules! (3, Interesting)

tesmako (602075) | about 10 years ago | (#9584527)

Just having a polygon datatype is kinda cool in itself, but the fact that PostgreSQL really supports using R-tree indexes and thus make efficient geometric queries quickly and easily is really great.

PostgreSQL is probably the most well-polished and useful open source project there is (gcc being the runner up, I skip linux since there really are plenty of decent OSS alternatives to it). Good going PostgreSQL team!

Re:This rules! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584533)

one of the new features will be auto_vacuum, which should relieve your woes.

Also, a significantly enhanced pl/perl - being able to write server side functions in perl, tcl, and various other languages is *really* nice.

Re:This rules! (1)

WordUpCousin (735088) | about 10 years ago | (#9584588)

except for the fact that one has to "manually" vacuum (cleanup + reindex) the db

Postgres 7.4 has introduced an auto-vacuuming feature.

Re:This rules! (1)

Mattintosh (758112) | about 10 years ago | (#9584646)

Auto-vacuum? So it sucks even without user intervention? Sounds like Microsoft might've sponsored that little "innovation".

"Ha! I kill me!" - ALF

Re:This rules! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584778)

> The only things I miss from my MSSQL days is the ability to do on-the-fly data type changes on columns

This you can do in the upcoming 7.5. Here is the syntax:

ALTER [ COLUMN ] column TYPE type [ USING expression ]

The optional USING expression is used if you need to convert the current data in some way.

Re:This rules! (1)

GooberToo (74388) | about 10 years ago | (#9584891)

Use the auto-vacuume daemon. You'll need to turn on some statistics gathering too. Once the daemon is running, it periodically checks the db statistics to determine what needs to be done when. It takes care of it for you. Check the docs, it's fully explained.

Make sure you're using the current release and use the daemon. I think you'll be thrilled. :)

Cheers!

Re:This rules! (1)

rtaylor (70602) | about 10 years ago | (#9584930)

With PostgreSQL 7.5 (currently in feature freeze) contains the ability to alter a column type.

Sit tight through the beta period and you'll have your wish.

Nested Transactions (1)

dustym (566056) | about 10 years ago | (#9584354)

Thank god.

Good news! (5, Interesting)

rfernand79 (643913) | about 10 years ago | (#9584411)

Certainly good news! :) PostgreSQL is a very robust and complete database, enjoyed by many academic users (mostly because of its excellent implementation of different SQL standards...) It's nice to hear that a company is backing them up now. UML and Intel, really cool, too. It's not as good as Linus/OSDL, but definitelly equivalent to the Linus/Transmeta years. So, in general, is this the road for the free world now? Backed up by powerful companies who also benefit? I certainly hope so.

More servers running PostgreSQL... (2, Informative)

tcopeland (32225) | about 10 years ago | (#9584437)

...can be found on the Big List Of GForge Sites [gforge.org] .

Props to Tim Perdue for picking a solid database on which to build GForge [gforge.org] !

User-Mode Linux Management (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584474)

...If you want to manage a lot of UML virtual machines, I _highly_ recommend UMLazi [umlazi.org] . It has a very slick configuration file format-- configuration directories instead of a single file, which makes it really easy to manipulate with scripts--, and they've obviously put a lot of thought into security.

I had a few problems getting it started, but the developers were very helpful.

Why corporate self-interest can be good for OSS (5, Interesting)

j. andrew rogers (774820) | about 10 years ago | (#9584512)

There is more than just Fujitsu supporting PostgreSQL and the reasons there is corporate interest is pure unadulterated self-interest of the best kind.

Postgres is getting really close to the functionality and capabilities of the Big Commercial Enterprise DBMS, close enough that anyone can see that bridging that gap is quite doable. Most of the arguable weaknesses in Postgres are in the more esoteric high-end feature space, as it is already strong and quite feature complete for most routine RDBMS work. And the upcoming new version addresses a great many of those weaknesses. As the article said, this is going to be a major release.

The self-interest part is that it is a HELL OF A LOT CHEAPER for a corporation to pay people to add those last few features and bits that they want to Postgres than to pay an unholy amount of money to buy the required Oracle licenses. The Postgres engine is clean and fundamentally pretty good in an engineering sense, and so enterprise feature tweaks are relatively cheap. It is all about dollars and sense at the end of the day. Purchasing Postgres plus feature development is almost always going to be vastly cheaper than buying Oracle. And unlike Oracle, it is pretty much a one-time fixed cost. It is worth repeating that the engineering strength and scalability of the underlying Postgres platform is the primary reason the market is evolving this way. The gap between MySQL and high-end RDBMS is comparatively much too great for a company to fund closing that gap because a lot of additional arguably unrelated work may be required because of the internals. This increases time to delivery of features, increases the cost of adding high-end features, and increases the risk of problems.

If Oracle suddenly dropped its enterprise licensing costs by a couple of order of magnitude, then it would seriously threaten Postgres development. But since that is unlikely to happen, corporate money will continue to flow into making Postgres a formidable Oracle replacement, which it is already well on its way to being.

Re:Why corporate self-interest can be good for OSS (1)

nsayer (86181) | about 10 years ago | (#9584960)

Make no mistake: I am both a PostgreSQL user and a major advocate for it where I work. At the same time, I would make one little comment on this:

Most of the arguable weaknesses in Postgres are in the more esoteric high-end feature space

Some of those esoteric features are things like clustering/failover, which in my view aren't really so esoteric. Yes, I do know that there is third party support for it, but it isn't free.

Raw partition support would also be a good checkbox in the 'enterprise ready' table.

PostgreSQL Rocks (1)

drfrog (145882) | about 10 years ago | (#9584706)

yes!

i've been a die hard fan of PG since 6.5-ish

windows port (3, Informative)

MagicMerlin (576324) | about 10 years ago | (#9584818)

7.5 will contain a native windows port with no external dependencies. You can find the current binary version here. [postgresql.org]

Even though it is currently in beta it works very well. The port is now being downloaded over 2000 times a week and increasing all the time.

Also in PostgreSQL 7.5 - Native Windows Port (3, Informative)

john_smith_45678 (607592) | about 10 years ago | (#9584819)

Looks like version 7.5 will also include a native Windows port. Prior to this, PostgreSQL on Windows has always required Cygwin (which offers a lot of great stuff in and of itself) to run.

Firebird for teh win! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584874)

I used to be a huge pgsql person, but then I got Firebird. I'm probably never going back!

postgre who? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9584879)

Trying to make postgre's database like oracle's is definetly not the road to follow, more complexity and features (even tablespaces) don't make a better database, try to follow the simple and modular apporach of mysql and stop stuffing postgre unless you want to make it unbearable as Oracle, that on most common installations need a battalion of people to make it work descently.

Correction (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9585048)

User-Mode Linux main site is http://user-mode-linux.sourceforge.net [sourceforge.net] .
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