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452 comments

the answer (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992278)

the answer to all of his questions are at the end of the article.
everybody knows it but is too lazy :)

Ragging about RMS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992279)

1) First of all, despite Linus's wild popularity, RMS has probably contributed more to Linux than he has. For instance, how far would Linux get without emacs, gcc, and all the GNU utils?

2) Say what you want about fanaticism, my will stipulates that all my computer equipment goes to FSF.

RMS made a larger contribution than Linus. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992280)

Of course, the action of Linus to write the kernel, release it for free and maintain it for 7 years in his free time has no precedent in the software history.

However, you don't seem to realize what software RMS wrote:

* gcc
* gdb
* emacs
* command reimplementations (cp, sh..)
* surely a lot of other things (shells, etc.)
..

By himself or with other GNU people (Roland Pesch..); all of that supporting an idea of
freedom, and now he sees it used in a system
friendlier and friendlier to proprietary software
(binary-only modules etc.)

Of course not all software has to be free, but if we were to compare relative code sizes of the linux kernel and all the GNU tools without which Linux couldn't have existed and couldn't work now, the system would be called GNU rather than Linux.

At least give him respect as a genius hacker just like Linus is.

Sheesh...come on Rob! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992281)

Are you trying to see if you can plant a story
that will surpass the GNOME idiocy from a couple
of days ago!?! But then again....how much does /. bring in from banner ads? ;)

Why I don't call it GNU/Linux (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992282)

I don't call the system I'm running GNU/Linux because I'm running it for the non-GNU aspects, not for its GNU aspects. I'm running Linux to get a low-cost Unix with source.

GNU is not Unix. Where they differ, I sometimes like the GNU approach (e.g., better handling of extreme cases), but I also hate certain aspects of the GNU tools. The most hateworthy is that lack of good Unix-like documentation. Unix tools have man pages--GNU tools often either don't, or have out-of-date man pages. Yes, I know about info. Info is fine for what it does, but it does not substitute for man pages.

The Linux attitude is quite different from the GNU attitude. Sticking "GNU" in the name of the system will cause many to infer that Linux is a GNU system in attitude, rather than merely in package contents.

Ragging about RMS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992283)

What makes you think emacs is essential to Linux?

RMS, You Communist Lunatic (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992284)

Well, we have RMS to thank for this bit of FUD to hurt the Free Software Movement. Thanks Stalin!

RMS, you lazy, non-bathing, non-free-rights-giving, kidless, wifeless, virginal, sack of sh'i't...get a life.

Linus has one, and it's quite nice.

If you need an ego-fix, go work for Microsoft, oh, and take that piece of sh'i't (GNU HURD) with you.

It is a pity ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992285)

... but somehow rms seems to be on the brink of becoming an angry old man. If it is the idea that counts, why than that rant about a name ? Am I supposed to say I have got a GNU/Linux/Donald E. Knuth system ?

There are quite some pople out there who deserve a lot of respect but I do not feel like having to acknowledge that again and again and again.

We know quite well where it started and if practical issues are an anathema to him, I can respect that. If he cannot respect though it is an issue to me, than he is the one who divides. This must not be.

Can you say penis envy? -crazy christians... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992286)

Jesus christ, not EVERYONE has to sit around the house breast feeding and watching football with the fambly....

Linux (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992287)

RMS needs to realize that there are only two possibilities in most of these types of situations:

1) He can be charismatic enough to persuade everyone to call it what he wants.

2) He can use his iron-fisted power to force everyone to call it what he wants.

Guess which option he actually has open to him?

I'm calling it Linux, but if he wants to stick the names of those who wrote the other "67%" of the code (recall in the article that he estimates the kernel to be 3% and FSF's stuff to be 30%) in front of "GNU," then he is welcome to do so.

Sorry to disappoint the gnubies out there, but what you demand means nothing to me.

Thanks to Linus Torvalds, Alan Cox, and the other kernel hackers for Linux.

Ragging about RMS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992288)

I agree.

Linus has made a great contribution, but RMS
started the ball rolling. You have to understand
where RMS is coming from too. He is a techie that
is motivated by something bigger than just
"scratching an itch." I admire RMS for his
convictions AND what he has brought to computing.
People might think that it is ego which makes
RMS insist on GNU/Linux, but I think that he
doesn't want to see GNU disassociated because
he doesn't want to see the fruits of Free Software
depolitisized. It would be his vision co-opted by
the very people who he is trying to defeat. Some
people have a problem with RMS's politics, but
he has devoted himself to doing something that
he thinks will benefit everyone. How can you knock
a guy for trying to make the world a better place?

Why Hurd got so delayed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992289)

The GNU project didn't take such a long time
to come up with The Hurd because they lacked
technical skills; even if you don't know why
it took so long, you just need to have a look
at how the gcc internal works to be convinced
that RMS is a genius. He didn't manage to
write a lot of the Hurd, because that's when
his body reminded him of its existence and
he got severe trouble with his hands; probably after too much time spent typing code. This fact doesn't seem to be too wellknown. Fortunately, Linus stepped in and filled the last hole in the GNU project with his kernel that became the huge snowball that we know today.

Just thought I would mention this fact, before people start calling RMS names again.

Is it just me? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992290)

...or is RMS getting nuttier as time goes on. This guy, in spite of his many contributions to free software, does the entire movement a disservice every time he opens his egomaniacal mouth. He should ditch the self serving whining, and the St. Ignutious costume, and most of all that bloody song, and stop being such a spoilt brat about Linux versus Hurd.

Can you say penis envy? -crazy christians... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992291)

Yes, we can say that. Although, because most people have at least an ounce of decorum, we choose not to say that. Please don't assume that "having kids" == "oppressive Christians". The zealots that are on TV every sunday, asking for your money to make the preacher's BMW payment, represents about 2% of "Christians".

More of Stallman's usuall arrogance... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992292)

Stallman would recieve credit if he weren't so arrogant, fanatic, and self-righteous. In his interview he insulted everyone who finds raising kids important because 'he has better things to do'. He could have easily reworded his statement to, 'I don't want to have kids', which would have been a pacifiable statement to everyone, instead of his inflamatory remark. In addition he plays off everyone who got GNU the recognitin it has no. He seems to dislike pragmatists.
What he doesn't recognize though is, that if linux weren't around, many of us would have never heard of GNU. After I installed linux ~ 2 years ago, I quickly therafter found out about GNU, Stallman, and their ideology. He is getting the recgonition, just not as much as Linus. If linux does take off, he will recieve even more recognition.
While I abhor his personality, I do admire his work, idealogy, and determination.

No tears for Richard.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992293)

You obviously know nothing about RMS. He had a sweetheart a long time ago named Alix who asked him to marry her, and he declined because she wanted kids. Maybe he's jealous of Linus, who cares. The point is Linux WOULD NOT EXIST without GNU, and he deserves recognition, considering the fact he's written 10x more code for our Linux systems than Linus has.

Anyone else see the contradiction here? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992294)

What is a self-proclaimed champion of FREEDOM doing trying to force the rest of the world to see things EXACTLY his way?

Real life vs. life of illusion (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992295)

RMS has a life. If you think your "real world" is real, keep dreaming.
He does not seem so concerned with "getting the job done" as
with living consistent with his ideals, though he seems also to
be pretty good with the practical tasks of writing useful tools.
Could you do better as a coder or designer?

Come on, Linux was originally written by a home user because
he couldn't afford an expensive proprietary unix for his PC, even
if one was available then. Linux was never intended to be a
commerical enterprise. However, it has become attractive to
commercail enterprises over the years. That's fine with Linux and
with RMS - but first things first. Linus doesn't even make money
from Linux, but working in the commercial world.

Freedom will always be more important than anything else.
RMS seems to be at least trying to put his ideals into practice
personally and professionally. Your definition of freedom may be
different from his, but what is REAL is not measured in terms of
results and never can be. Yes, it is something spiritual, and
it's good to see that a technically talented person like RMS can
see that and strive for that. RMS is human like anyone else, but
as least is a seeker of the REAL in his own life. Can many others
even claim to be sincere seekers? No, most sell out too cheaply too
early in life, and rarely get a second chance to experience a kind of
innocence that might just lead to something great.

When the driving force behind Linux becomes commercial success
rather than freedom (which includes the simple joy or pleasure
or using Linux applications at home or in a business with the
knowledge that Linux really is your own system) then Linux will
die. Right now freedom and "spiritual" stuff if a big motivator among
people who use Linux - even among those who tend to be
results oriented in their professions. Linux is not just a kernel or
operating system with GNU and other utilities - it is an intellectual,
social and spiritual movement for MOST of its current users.



It's just sour grapes... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992296)

Gee, do you think Linus would be saying the same crap if the roles were reversed? I don't think so.
I think anyone who has met RMS knows he's an egomaniac, and he likes being a martyr for his definition of 'free software'. I don't know why people worship him like he's some kind of holy man. And incidentally, it's not Linus' fault that people call packages with the Linux kernel and GNU software by the Linux name. RMS leaves the mistaken impression that Linus ripped him off. Sorry but Linus was only working on the KERNEL. Wtf?

Can you say penis envy? -crazy christians... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992297)

Thats not the point, its the way he made his comment. He could have said I'm not interrested in having kids. Instead he said 'I have better things to do than have kids', which insults everyone who feels having a family is important. I wonder if he knows what he is doing, or its all subconsious. He seems to make subtle comments like these, which insult a whole group of people all the time. Insulting people is not the way to win them over. Thank god he isn't more famous, or else we would be nowehre near where we are today.

Plenty of BSD code in "GNU/Linux" too (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992298)

The BSD contribution and legacy is significant enought to merit part of the name if Stallman's is.

Come on.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992299)

We all know that all of us free software hackers work partly for the ego boost and peer recognition. Isn't having millions of people run your software and think of you as a good programmer, what drives most of us to release GPL software, besides feeling part of a nice open communauty ?

There is nothing worse for an hacker than being denied recognition; removing the name of a contributor from sourcecode is considered criminal in hackers ethics. Noone would do it.

However, RMS is effectively being written out of history, despite his contributions - the gcc compiler that Linux was written with from scratch, and the GNU Public license that protects our rights and our code against proprietarization.

Sure, RMS is a peculiar public figure, verbally very violent and with a really manicheist vision of the world (all white or all black), and his way of saying things is not always the best, but he's right in what he's trying to say.

When's he not on a podium, he is an extremely nice person I must say; at least, he replies everyone's emails on a very kind and helping tone. This can't be said for all free software leaders.

X sucks, though (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992300)

Yeah, X is great, but it still sucks. It crashes all the time.

This is a really stupid personal attack ! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992301)

What do you know about his personal life you moron !? leave the man's personal life alone, this is not your problem !

Khalid

RMS martyr routine getting OLD... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992302)

Man, I'm getting very sick and tired of his definition of 'free software'. His notion is coercive and fascist. Frankly, the best license I've seen is the Crack.com license with Golgotha (basically--'Do whatever the hell you want!').

I don't care if he's on mission, he's wasting his life to convince everyone that his definition of 'free software' is correct. Does anyone actually buy his routine that it's not his wounded ego?

I find his comment hard to believe--sounds like legalspeak. I think we know what the truth is:
Q: Does he not wish he were getting more
recognition?
A: "I hope not. But how can I know for sure?
I've got an ego like everyone else. I'm
sure my ego wants me to be more
famous. I don't know."

Hmm... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992303)

Hey, I use GNU grep on Win95. Does that make it GNU/Windows? Do you think you could convice MS of that? Oh, and last I heard, the Hurd had to be cross-compiled on a Linux system (or GNU/Linux); does that make it GNU/Linux/Hurd? Listen up Stallman and Stallmanites: write a kernel, name the OS. Write utilities, don't name the OS. OK? Thanks for playing! Have a nice day!
--shane

Not so exact (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992304)

Surely, you can name a compiler, released under the GPL, that can produce code for ~30 cpus ? Linux wouldn't be running on 68K, powerpc, arm, mips, sparc.. if it wasn't for gcc.

If you are to throw away all GNU tools, don't forget libc as well. Would you write your programs using direct, unportable Linux system calls ?

"better things to do than have kids" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992305)

So basically you're insulted that anyone could think breeding isn't the most important thing they can ever do. Heavens forfend!

News flash - we already have over 6E9 people, most of which will never do anything that really affects our civilization (that goes for me too, but I'm not even 30 yet). You think having a family is important, fine, but if you expect *everyone* to agree with you, get bent.

Animal Farm and OSS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992306)

Its a good point you raise.

Looking at some of the advocates of Open Source, and in fact, a large number of the posts in on /., you see a growing trend - the increasing desire for philosophical uniformity, and the muting of tolerance.

This is endemic to social movements that pride themselves on an intellectual foundation.

Just remember that Western writers proclaimed the Soviet Union "paradise" well into the 1920's. Artists by the truckload moved there to exist in the workers paradise. Then strangely enough, alternative voices were forcefully muted to uphold the rigorous philosophies of the new regime. In short - fascism.

Come on.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992307)

He isn't actually being written out of history like ex-Russian leaders were, he just isn't getting as much press recognition as Linus. I guess in his eccentric world, he considers tihs the same thing. Everyone who has been using Linux for a while knows about GNU and who Stallman is. His name is still splattered all over software and his story and arrogance are blastered all over the web. He's just mad because he isn't getting as much coverage over the press. Definite case of an oversized ego. LEGGO MY EGGO.

RMS Needs to Learn PR (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992308)

Public Relations 101

That guy is brilliant, worthy of recognition. His ideas on free software are reshaping the computer software industry. But the guy has no friggin' clue on how to present his cause or himself to the media. He doesn't need to compete with Linus/Linux for the glory. RMS/FSF and GNU can stand on their own. The media are hungry for people to talk to. He just needs to come across as someone they would *want* to talk to.

Of course if he wishes to take on the role of martyr, he's free to do that as well. But casting himself in a struggle *against* Linux is not the way to win friends and influence people. Linus/Linux is not the enemy here.

Oh for (Deity of your choice)'s sake, grow up (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992309)

I met RMS on one of his speaking tours.

When I saw him and heard him speak, I both gained respect for him, and lost respect for him. It was a life altering moment. I relaized that I never wanted to be like him. I find him to be genius level, but also genius crazy, with poor personal habits. My grip on reality may not be firm, but his is tenuous at best.

I can truely say that RMS has been a guiding influence in my life--of how not to be. But also, his contributions have guided my life. For me, its a kind of wierd hero worship combined with a tinge of pity and dispisement.

Is it just me? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992310)

No, he is not getting nuttier all the time. If you'll notice, this article is nothing but a rehash of some of the RMS articles published 10 years ago.

Ragging about RMS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992311)

"How can you knock a guy for trying to make the world a better place?"

Because he feels he has to constantly remind everyone of it?

RMS started it, but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992312)

... without Linus, the whole free software movement would probably still be an academic curiousity. What Linus has done is built on the work started by RMS.

It's the philisophical equivilent of the GPL:

RMS started the movement with the creation of the free software movement. Linus took that idea and expanded on it, changed it, improved it and made it more accessible to people.

Having read the article, I get the impression that Linus has achieved what RMS wanted (with HURD?) and RMS is a bit jealous.

So how did Linus achieve this? I've heard it said that the FSF is very "cathedral" compared to the Linux "bazaar". That might be one aspect. The other (IMNSHO) is that Linus is a better leader. People like Linus, he's easy going, fair minded, and approachable (especially to the press). In comparison, RMS is too extreme, too radical and he annoys a lot of people who are pro-free software, let alone the rest of the IT world.

GNU/Solaris maybe? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992313)

Yes, it would be GNU/Solaris. Where's the confusion here please?

110% (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992314)

Is it just me or do the numbers add up to 110? 3% linux, 30% GNU, 67% other sources???

the answer==42 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992315)

Now what is the question?

--
Killjoy

The answer my friend is blowing in the wind, the answer is blowing in the wind.....

He is tight about Linus (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992316)

He is right in claiming that it is to sad that Linus doesn't promote the philosophy of free software, even sometimes claiming it is unimportant. Even Linus can't deny that the GPL should have much credit for bringing Linux to where it is today. If Linus had released Linux under a kernel that only allowed people to relase patches to his kernel, and that all contributions became his personal property, I doubt that Linux had come even close to where it is today. Probably we would be using FreeBSD or something.

It's just sour grapes... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992317)

Woah phear it's almost as if Linus and RMS are two different people! With different personalities!! WOAH THAT MIGHT EXPLAIN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM!!
Some people like RMS because of his political views, but I would wager that's a minority. Most like him because of what he's done. Judging solely from the posts here, it seems people have a very small appreciation for what he's done. Yes the kernel is an awesome feat, but not quite as awesome as the rewriting of all the UNIX tools, plus about 5 compilers which compile on about 30 platforms.
Also, Linus does not 'just' work on the kernel, he's hounded by the media a lot. Since Linus gets all the attention, RMS wants him to be more accurate. OK so he's being unfair. Still, we wrote a kick-ass compiler B)

Freedom vs Usablility: Superb Comment (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992318)

I agreee with you Zach. At the end of the day, when it comes down to it, it's all about getting work done. I like Linux, I like free software, but they're a means to an end, they are NOT the end in itself. But I'm not surprised RMS believes the way he does--after all "he hasn't had a full-time
job in 15 years."

I seriously doubt (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992319)

that Linus was sitting around thinking "Gee, here's this nice GNU Project and all these tools, I think I'll make them a kernel." When he wrote it, he wanted a personal OS. He didn't write it for GNU. You're making it sound like he called up stallman and offered to step in to complete the project. He didn't. He just used the GNU tools. If the hadn't been there, he would have used some other tools. Linus is reponsible for Linux, for getting it started, and having the vision to let it go where it would. Even if he doesn't contribute much anymore. It would have happened with or without GNU.

What is they had kept the old name? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992320)

Hahah actually I like that name better than Linux anyway...I don't know what possessed him to change it.
Anyway, yes Freax would still be the name of the kernel, and RMS wants people to call the system by the name of the system, not just the kernel.

Ragging about RMS (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992321)

GNU - GNU is Not Unix.

A corollary to this is Gnu is Not Linux. I don't know why he has such a problem with GNU being associated with UNIX, and no problem with GNU being assocaited with Linux.

RMS seems to be suffering from a case of major sour grapes. Although there is no question that he has been an important contributor, GNU itself was never attached to Linux. In fact, GNU is working (very very slowly) on their own OS kernel - Hurd.

GNU was an integral part of Linux development ( employing tools like GCC), and still remains an integral part of the Linux enivronment (from bash to GNOME). However, without a "free" OS platform, FSF would be a very little known and little suported organization (or political party for that matter). RMS should not complain. One cannot ask for better publicity than Linux.

The plethora of developers who take part in GNU projects deserve the credit more so than either Linus or RMS. However, that's not reasonable. Our celebrity culture prevents us from giving credit where credit is due. It's our nature to make super-human heroes for all to look up to. This is perhaps the primary role RMS and Linus play now days in the free software movement: larger than life characters which embody a vision ( a free UNIX-like OS) and an ideal ( free software for everyone).

Come on.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992322)

Ya I agree. I wish people would realise that not being a sheep is not necessarily a bad thing (and I would argue a very good thing). Instead non-sheep are 'losers' or 'needing of a life' and definitely not worth listening to (?).

Hmm... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992323)

How about this: write a kernel, period. Have it do something. Gee, why won't it do anything?

DUH.

"Write utilities ...", like that is a small part of the system? It is an essential part of the system. Just as the kernel is.

So both should get equal credit. That is the point he is trying to make. It's not all Linus or all RMS.

Get it?

Other/Linux (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992324)

Stallman, writes himself out of history, by
being a selfish nut.

"While Stallman concedes that Torvald's
contribution was essential, he estimates that the kernel represents only about 3 percent of the
entire system. In contrast, the GNU project
contributed about 30 percent of the code, while
the remaining 67 percent was taken from other
sources, he says."

67 percent - Other.
Linux = Other/Linux.

RMS, quit boohoo'n and write some code.

RMS doesn't quite practice all he preaches (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992325)

I thought one of the main things he said was that the competition is not between different types of free software, but between commercial and free software. If that's the case, then what the hell is he ranting about? Also, if all he cared about was his 'mission', then what the hell does he care about credit? He must be in major denial.

X sucks, though (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992326)

Ya boo to X. I like the network protocol idea, but I don't like the GUI. Booo to X.

Not so exact (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992327)

But again, GPL is not GNU software. If they had not developed the tools, someone else would have. My point is that linux can run without GNU software, which is why I don't think it is GNU/Linux.

"better things to do than have kids" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1992328)

Since when is love equivalent to sex? Is there some sort of physical law that two people who love each other need to have kids?

Hmm... (1)

Patrik Nordebo (170) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992537)

Linux has no code in common with Minix, AFAIK. It was originally developed in Minix, but the compiler was gcc from the beginning, and I suspect the assembler may have been gas, as well. So the GNU project certainly helped Linux get started.

RMS is cool... (1)

KaHa (368) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992540)

I say RMS rocks.
Without his fierce, uncompromising idealism, the entire free software
movement would be much diluted, and would possibly not exist at all.
I respect this sort of a lion; agree or disagree, there is nothing
wishy-washy about him.
And as far as the half-assed comments about RMS needing to get a
life; he's GOT one. One with a very intense focus, that placid sheep
will never understand.

Hmm... (1)

Trepidity (597) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992543)

Several things:

1) You are correct in saying that Linus wrote the original Linux kernel, but he did not write the current (2.x.x) kernels. He has a significant percentage of the kernel code, but he himself estimates that much less than half the kernel code is his. Alan Cox probably has nearly as much code as Linus, if not more, yet he gets much less recognition than Linus does.

2) the GNU/Linux OS is not the same thing as the Linux kernel. That would be like saying that the name of Windows is "Win32" or that the name of OS/X is "Mach"

3) The Linux kernel was heavily influenced by Minix. However, most of the rest of the OS had already been written by the GNU project. The kernel was just the last needed piece of the OS (Since the "real" GNU kernel, HURD, is taking much much longer than envisoned).

Ragging about RMS (1)

Trepidity (597) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992544)

you fail to mention that egcs is not some sort of new compiler built from scratch. It, too, owes much to the FSF for developing the gcc compiler it is based on.

No tears for Richard.. (1)

gavinhall (33) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992547)

Posted by Charles Bronson:

What a putz. I don't believe any of that crap he spews about not wanting kids. That seems like an easy way of explaining why he's like 40 and has probably never had a date in his life. I mean, would you want someone as abrasive as Richard Stallman as your husband or dad? Perish the thought! Then again, maybe it's best that RMS doesn't procreate. Maybe he's jealous of Linus' wife and kids.

Who's Kung-Fu is Better? RMS or Linus? (1)

gavinhall (33) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992548)

Posted by !ErrorBookmarkNotDefined:

I vote for Mega-RMS. He fights with recursion,
making him a team. The group always wins over
individuals. RMS Kung-Fu is Better.



-----------------------------
Computers are useless. They can only give answers.

Hmm... (1)

stoney (780) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992552)

1) maybe Alan Cox doesnt care?
2) !
3) I 2nd this. and wait for the utils coded in perl.

"better things to do than have kids" (1)

Python (1141) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992559)

""Breeding" is the most important thing humans do - that's not opinion, that's biology.

Most Important? Thats a value judgement my friend, not a fact. If we took your advice, and just started cranking out kids without any thought for the fact that an infinite number of people can not live on a finite planet, we will surely all perish. Such a myopic view of the world you have. Our natural resources are not infinite and a such, no matter how much you want it to be true, the planet Earth can not support an ever increasing population.

--
Python

Oh for (Deity of your choice)'s sake, grow up (1)

Kestrel (1301) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992563)

I think that there is just lots of plain ole jealousy here, and that is about it. RMS is mad that Linus managed to do what he has never been able to: get a working kernel. Even though started before Linux, HURD still amounts to nothing. I think the reason that Linus suceeded where he failed is because heading a huge project to design a kernel requires you work with PEOPLE. I remember the one time I met RMS, he didn't even look up from his computer with a group of people standing there in front of him, wanting to ask a question about the books he was selling. Linus, on the other hand, can actually communicate with people, and thus he was able to coordinate the momumental task of creating the Kernel which required the help of lots of people that listen to you, and you listen to them. RMS should stop whining and start to take a look at his own shortcommings and wonder WHY he failed at creating the kernel. He gets plenty of attention, and I think that everyone understands his contribution and is grateful for it. I think what everyone is not grateful for is the bad name he gives the Free Software movement everytime he shoots his mouth off about how he should get the credit, yadda yadda.

Richard, if you ever read this, PLEASE stop making yourself and us look like a fool by doing this constantly. Don't ruin the monumental and greatly appreciated accomplishments you have done by going down in history as the mad man who goes nuts cause he doesn't get enough press.

If Luke gets all the credit for slaying the evil Darth Gates using the tools you gave him, you should be happy that it was accomplished. The movement is MORE IMPORTANT than you, more important than Linus. You should keep that in mind and realise that it is OK if it is not you personally that wields the sword that brings him down.

Freedom vs Usablility (1)

Zachary Kessin (1372) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992564)

RMS in some ways needs to get a life. Just saying its a Freedom/Liberties issue is not going to win the day. For those of us in the *REAL WORLD* we have things we have to get done. Applications that need to be written etc. And while I would rather use free software to do it, I will use whatever I need to to get the job done.

Just being free will not convince people to use things. Being better AND free will. But you have to have a better product first.


--Zachary Kessin

GNU (1)

Gustav Eimar (1409) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992565)

We have RMS to thank for lots and lots of important software, for initiating the GNU project and basically inventing and propagating the concept of Free Software. Then again, we have Mr Torvalds to thank for putting together a kernel, making the whole system usable to ppl on i386 style computers. Linux, the kernel that is, may not be as clever and modern in its monolithic design as Hurd was meant to be (IMHO ofcourse), but still it has evolved into a really nice, usable and portable kernel. Without it GNU software wouldnt have become nearly as popular as it is today.

Personaly I dont care much who gets the credit for anything, not even for any software I write myself; the important thing is that the software is written and is free. And that the ideas of Free Software are propagated, just like RMS says in the article. If the GNU project continues to evolve and grow as well as it has so far, be it using Linux of Hurd, you'll have your name in the history book someday RMS, be sure.

Hmm... (1)

Gustav Eimar (1409) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992566)

Linux did, AFAIK, not come out of Minix at all, it was written by Torvalds from scratch all by himself. Tannenbaum (the Minix-dude) didn't like Linux at all, there is an infamous mailinglist discussion about Linux between Tannenbaum and Torvalds where Tannenbaum says Linux is obsolete in its monolithic design (somewhat true IMHO, altho microkernel archs havn't exactly turned out as well as everyone thought) and that Torvalds would have gotten a really bad grade if he were Tannenbaums student. Torvalds replyed pointing out many of the braindamages of Minix.

Linux, while written from scratch by Torvalds, was written with the GNU system in mind; the GNU software wasn't ported to Linux, Linux was written to run GNU software. And ofcourse, Linux is a piece of GNU software itself.

While the kernel is an essential part of the system, its not the only such. The write the kernel you need a compiler, a shell, good tools for filehandling, a neato editor etc etc, this was what the GNU project aimed to write first before the kernel was written. Then there was Linux, started shortly before Hurd was started (the Hurd folks didnt know of Linux when they started it AFAIK). Linux caught on more quickly and got more developers than Hurd. And here we are. What you identify as a "Linux" system, is really a GNU system, with a linux kernel. Unless you are a kernel hacker, you cant tell a Linux system from any other system with the same userspace software from any other system with a POSIX compliant kernel.

Yup, sorry. (1)

Gustav Eimar (1409) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992567)

You are ofcourse correct.

Not so exact (1)

Daniel (1678) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992581)

If they had not developed the tools, someone else would have.

But they did.

Daniel

GNU/Solaris maybe? (1)

Daniel (1678) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992582)

Actually, I believe I saw proposals to create GNU/Solaris and GNU/FreeBSD systems.

Daniel

Can you say respect? (1)

dattaway (3088) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992593)

RMS sacrificed much in his life and what that means to me that there is hope that I will not have to put up with NT and other strange things at work that do not always work. Learn from his experiences and you might know how much of an impact his contributions have made. I would hate to think of a world where all of technology was locked up in NDA's.

RMS, You Communist Lunatic (1)

dattaway (3088) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992594)


by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 06, @04:52
Well, we have RMS to thank for this bit of FUD to hurt the Free Software Movement. Thanks Stalin!

Wrong. If you want to be working for the communist good, let Mr. Gates continue his path and you will be working for his good. After all, he innovated the internet, the computer, and many of those other things on the Microsoft Time Line. You are the one spreading FUD.

There is nothing wrong having personal freedoms. There is something wrong with having your life tightly controlled and that you must pay a high tax for everything that can be commoditized. RMS asks for nothing but freedom.

Microsoft must keep those stock prices in a certain direction. Its like buying into an obese dinosour trying to devour everything in sight. One of these days, its going to come crashing down in a spectacular display of flatulence because it cannot stay up.

Can you say respect? (1)

dattaway (3088) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992595)

And no doubt that is why he is so bitter about not being internationally acclaimed.

That may be your perception. He may be setting a precedent for getting recognition. How would you like to write a set of utilities and have some large corporation come along and mask what you wrote with a different brand? That can be useful, but can be misleading.

X/Linux (1)

pH7.0 (3799) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992604)

Yeah, X Window should get some glory!

Without Linux... (1)

pH7.0 (3799) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992605)

gcc could run on top of DOS or commercial UNIX. I'm sure Bill Gates and Scott McNealy, would thanks RMS. Without an alternative OS, the "free software movement" couldn't go anywhere.

X made a larger contribution than RMS. (1)

pH7.0 (3799) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992606)

You can't measure software by size!

If size matter, X Window is bigger. It's not even GPL, so RMS can't claim any credit!

Build a better mousetrap...I mean kernel (1)

wynlyndd (5732) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992623)

If Mr. Stallman wants the world to beat a path to his door, he should build a better kernel. I'm not one who likes stories of a future better mousetrap; I need to a mousetrap now. Those M$ rats are big!

Applause for Richard.. (1)

unitron (5733) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992624)

If he doesn't have the time or financial resources to do a proper job of "that whole parent thang" then he is doing the right thing by remaining childless. Wish more people were as responsible.

And every time... (1)

unitron (5733) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992625)

And every time someone new contributes to it their name could be added.
Or maybe as previous contributors added new stuff their name could be bumped up the list relative to the size and/or worth of their overall contribution. Shouldn't be any trouble getting everyone who should have a voice in those relative rankings to agree just whose work gets what rating, or deciding who those who should have that voice should be.

"better things to do than have kids" (1)

Geoff NoNick (7623) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992638)

So basically you're insulted that anyone could think breeding isn't the most important thing they can ever do.

"Breeding" is the most important thing humans do - that's not opinion, that's biology. Anyone who thinks that accomplishing some goal is more important that sharing intimacy with another person (I'm talking about love here, not sex) has got a lot of growing up to do.

Can you say respect? (1)

Geoff NoNick (7623) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992639)

RMS sacrificed much in his life

And no doubt that is why he is so bitter about not being internationally acclaimed. It sounds as though he is starting to realize the futility of material gain. In his case the material is attention, not money, as it is with most people but RMS is every bit as misguided as those mid-80's stockbroker stereotype folk.

Ragging about RMS (1)

Geoff NoNick (7623) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992640)

1) First of all, despite Linus's wild popularity, RMS has probably contributed more to Linux than he has. For instance, how far would Linux get without emacs, gcc, and all the GNU utils?

And where would GNU be without the Linux kernel? is Hurd at 0.0.1 yet?

I don't have emacs installed on my computer and as far as the utils are concerned it's not the utilities I like about Unix, but the sparse, conceptually simple kernel.

Man pages (1)

Geoff NoNick (7623) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992641)

No kidding about the man pages:

This man page is not kept up to date except when volun-
teers want to maintain it. If you find a discrepancy
between the man page and the software, please check the
Info file, which is the authoritative documentation.


If we find that the things in this man page that are out
of date cause significant confusion or complaints, we will
stop distributing the man page. The alternative, updating
the man page when we update the Info file, is impossible
because the rest of the work of maintaining GNU CC leaves
us no time for that. The GNU project regards man pages as
obsolete and should not let them take time away from other
things.


Gee, thanks for telling me that man pages are obsolete, RMS. Is that why I enjoy using them so much? This is every bit as stupid as Microsoft telling us that Unix is obsolete - I don't care it it fits somebody's idea of what obsolete is, I like it.

No Subject Given (1)

Steve Bergman (7667) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992662)

>"I hope not. But how can I know for sure? I've
>got an ego like everyone else. I'm sure my ego >wants me to be more famous. I don't know."

Well, it's not like everyone else's. It's much bigger. I appreciate what he's done for the open-source/free-software community but it's only a part of Linux/Free-Software. What is important here, the credit or the code?

RMS is cool... (1)

Steve Bergman (7667) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992663)

Is it uncompromising idealism or is it uncompromising egotism hiding behind idealism. There's a difference. And more and more, I find myself feeling that he is hurting more than helping his nominal cause.

-Steve Bergman

RMS' nightmare (1)

Laxitive (10360) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992670)

I can understand RMS' point. Think about it, after so long toiling for his ideals for a completely "free" system, a finnish guy comes and steals pretty much all the momentum from it. When people think of Linux, they think of Linus, but most of them dont realize the millions of lines of code in the OS BESIDE the kernel - they associate the whole OS - utilities, compiler, and all - with Linus. Now, Linus is a very nice guy - very humble and everything, but it is true that he does not really care for the kind of ideology that Stallman holds. Look at it, Linus has said pretty much openly that he doesnt mind non-free programs on linux, and even non-free code in the kernel. This must be RMS' nightmare. It's a knee jerk reaction for him - facing the fact that all that he worked for might go down the tube. Look at it - big businesses are jumping in bed like crazy with linux. Soon, the screws will start turning for the "Linux" system to give the companies more and more "freedom" to make money. RMS' just sees his dream being threatened. He might have an ego, and he is frank enough to state it: Unlike many of you hypocritical bastards here.

I respect RMS' ideology - except for the fact that he only follows it when it comes to software. I think this sort of ideology should be followed across the board. Microsoft is just one example of thousands of companies that are ripping the average man to shreds today - and I dont know how you can simply state "free code" and stop at that.

Oh yeah - too all of you "commie-bastard" flamers, just because you can repeat a '50s "bad word" doesnt make you right.

-Laxative
Dont just free software - free the individual

A man of little responsibility. (1)

FireReaper (11087) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992672)

When I first started reading the article, I thought: "Hey.. he got short changed!".

But then, his life is described as a chain of avoidance of responsibilities or so the article notes. He doesn't want children because he doesn't want to work to make enough to support them. He doesn't own a computer of his own, he just uses the foundation's. He charges people high costs for his services. He lives in a rented home.

And he is advocating free software? Maybe he should live his life like his claimed ideal before he goes out and make statements against a man, Linux Torvalds, who not only took the time to work on a critical piece of software, work with others on it, share his work openly, and MAKE the time and put in the EFFORT to be responsible to the public.

Linux takes his position seriously and because of that, he will be taken seriously.

From the article, it looks like Stallman wants no responsibility, not even for his own statements, yet wants the accolade for a project which is used with Linux, not what makes Linux.

I agree with the final note in the article. That Stallman's abrasive personality does little to help him become better noticed. No one wants to spend time with or on someone who seems to condemn the world and at the same time, show utter apathy towards it and himself and his own life.

Just my two cents.

(On a side note, Stallman, if he had taken the time to work with people instead of, as the article suggests, bitch about things, he might be more respected on a personal level. Many a contributing members of society have gone unnoticed despite their hard work simply because they decide to seclude themselves and communicate with no one but an elite few.)

- Wing
- Reap the fires of the soul.
- Harvest the passion of life.

Ragging about RMS (1)

Axe (11122) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992677)

emacs

Without emacs? I do not think emacs matters..
Good editor thought..

gcc? Why egcs then? Maybe because of Stallman's personality? Is not it?

X Windows is more important than.. (1)

Axe (11122) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992678)

.. all this utilities I never use.
Following Comrade Stallman logic it should be
X/Linux then.

Yes, gcc is important too. And gmake. And bash.
And so oin. - but these are not the central parts.

And yes... (1)

Axe (11122) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992679)

... it is hard for me to be sympathetic with a person, whatever genius he is, who do not like children. Just my opinion of course...

X rulz. (1)

Azul (12241) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992686)

I have used X for years and it has NEVER crashed on me.

Can you say penis envy? (1)

Kludge (13653) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992699)

Stallman is such an egomaniac. Better things to
do than have kids? Somebody better rethink his
plan on becoming immortal. It seems he wants
glory for himself rather than to have people using a free
operating system.

Can someone say eccentric? (1)

SuperDee (14231) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992701)

I think RMS sounds like an eccentric to me. I think I would agree with the previous comments that he probably would love to take the credit for Linux if he could. I mean, let's face it... The HURD is an interesting idea, but it is so far out that it cannot seem to get off the ground... The latest news on the GNU website is that they are at v0.2, and struggling just to get it to be usable. In various places, even they seem to hint that for practical purposes, they must use Linux, and not HURD... I mean, let's face it... The HURD doesn't even have a RANDOM device, for crying out loud! I agree RMS deserves some credit for all his work too, but there is a reason for Linus getting most of the credit: the kernel is probably the biggest single contribution given, even if it is only 3% of the entire system, which is probably accurate... In other words, that 3% is probably more than any other single contributed bit of code.

Actually, I think Stallman would get much more recognition if he simply adopted Linux as an official part of *THE* GNU system, and all the work Torvalds has done... In other words, I think the two should shake hands. Then we would have a situation where Linus made an acknowledged contribution to the GNU project, and Stallman would be equally acknowledged for his contributions... But NO, RMS wouldn't have it that way--heaven forbid if that should happen... Heaven forbid if his philosophical issues took second seat to technical ones.

Another thing: since his ideas are revolutionary to the proprietary software world, naturally there must be a REASON presented for why Open Source is superior, and the practical issues he dismisses so easily are probably the main reason why Open Source has penetrated the market as much as it has.

the answer (1)

HardCase (14757) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992704)

Stallman claims that he's not seeking any glory for himself, but the quotes in the article say otherwise. Here is a man who is obviously very bitter that he hasn't gotten some large chunk of the Linux payoff.

I submit that he does not get acknowledged because his behaviour is so far out on the fringe of society that he himself could do more damage to the concept of free software simply by being who he is.

Personally, I think that we should all breath a sigh of relieve that Stallman is not too closely associated in people's minds with Linux.

There...I said it. Linux. Not GNU/Linux. I call BS on the idea that people are too lazy to say it...they call it by the name that it really is. Sheesh. Egos.

It is a pity ... (1)

HardCase (14757) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992705)

Hey, wait, this has the germ of an idea!

Maybe we should attach the name of every single person or organization who has worked on Linux to the name of the operating system. Yeah, that's it! Then instead of wasting our time arguing over who should get credit for it, we can waste our time trying to pronounce it.

Good idea, Don!

=d=

GNU/Solaris maybe? (1)

Sly Mongoose (15286) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992707)

If you replace all the Sun tools with their GNU equivilents, would the OS suddenly be GNU/Solaris? No. So why GNU/Linux? No.

The kernel is the OS, and all the tools in the world from some other source don't change the origin of the kernel.

Jealousy is an ugly thing.

What is they had kept the old name? (1)

Fizgig (16368) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992709)

I think we should all start calling it Freeax again. Maybe everyone could get along then. Seriously, do you think we would have these problems if Freeax had been kept as the name?

I detect some angst (1)

mr2Ę (16489) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992710)

If it was truly a philosophical issue then who cares about the name? I believe that RS should get all the credit he deserves, but it appears that he dodges the mainstream. As soon as something starts getting big, he splinters off. Otherwise he could have all the recognition he deserves.

Sounds like some sour grapes in there too. Seems like they're both a part of the same team and trashing doesn't help anything.

Of course I could be way off base. Just my impression :)

Ben

this is getting old (1)

auntfloyd (18527) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992717)

Hmmm... hasn't this been said before?
A few hundred times perhaps?

"I want these ideas to get the publicity. I think it's a damn shame that all the publicity is going to someone who doesn't advocate these ideas of freedom."

Get real.

Hmm... (1)

Jonas ÷berg (19456) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992723)

Just a small correction; Linux is licensed under the GNU General Public License. This does _not_ make it GNU software. Calling a program GNU software means that the developer and the GNU project agree that the software is part of the GNU system. Linux is not part of the GNU system though many people have adopted it to make a free operating system.

Can you say penis envy? (1)

Jonas ÷berg (19456) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992724)

This is not so. I won't go into specifics, but you can look into the philosophy section [gnu.org] on the GNU project web server. I hope you'll understand what it is RMS and the GNU Projects wants after that.

Hmm... (1)

chadc (250552) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992727)

It seems like Stallman wants to take linux and make it his baby. Linus wrote the kernel, which is what Linux essentially is, he can do whatever he wants with it. Why should we all have to call it GNU Linux because stallman wants it that way? Maybe I'm off here, but unless Linus has been lying all this time, Linux came out of minix, not GNU. What ever happened to Hurd anyway...

But... (1)

chadc (250552) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992728)

Yes, those are all very important, but they are not linux in my mind. The GNU tools are used on a wide variety of platforms. They are not what makes an OS, the kernel is. What's the difference between FreeBSD and Linux? The kernel ( yes, there are others, but the kernel is the biggest). They all use the same GNU tools. Why isn't stallman pushing for GNU/FreeBSD? Yes, GNU contributed a lot to the linux movement, and propelled it forward faster than it would have gone without it. But that doesn't mean linux wouldn't be here without them. Someone, somewhere would have written a c compiler, an editor, etc.

Exactly! (1)

chadc (250552) | more than 15 years ago | (#1992729)

I can take my linux box and replace all the GNU tools. So if I do that am I no longer running Linux? I don't think so. Yes, linux uses these tools, but these tools depend on linux, linux does not depend on these tools. There is other software out there than GNU...
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