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Microsoft Responds to IE Criticism

michael posted more than 9 years ago | from the bugs-marked-will-not-fix dept.

Internet Explorer 1244

darthcamaro writes "Looks like there was an online free-for-all on Microsoft's chat servers yesterday with Internet Explorer engineers. Several interesting things come out in the story including the fact that the IE big wig thinks that all of his engineers should have other browsers installed to see what they can do and, catch this...he thinks they're the underdog. 'I've worked at Microsoft for 14 years and I have always felt like the underdog,' said Hachamovitch. 'Maybe the road behind us looks easy, but at the time going it wasn't. I welcome the feedback today. Getting informed is the only way I know to get better. The day we don't get heated feedback I'll be concerned.'" Reader nkodengar notes that "Microsoft has posted an article on MSDN listing everything that will be affected by the the updates to Internet Explorer in Service Pack 2. This will be particularly important to developers who use ActiveX controls, pop-up windows and file download counters in their websites..."

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1244 comments

Microsoft are lying to us (4, Insightful)

Real Troll Talk (793436) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652293)

"People choose," replied Hachamovitch (IE lead engineer). "Hundreds of millions of people actively use Windows and they get to choose. Nothing in Windows as it ships keeps them from downloading other software that extends their browsing experience (e.g. the Google or Ebay toolbars) or changes it (e.g. an alternative browser)."

No they don't. Maybe I do, but I'm a computer expert.

My mom certainly has no clue that there even IS anything other than IE to use. Most of our mothers probably don't even realize that IE is not "the Internet".

There's a reason AOL is still popular with 20+ million people -- because it's easy and most computer users are idiots when it comes to technical knowledge/know-how.

I find Microsoft guility of contempt -- contempt of not upgrading their browser. They kept quoting x-million users but then saying they had a choice. No they didn't. They used what popped up when they clicked on a Web address somewhere on their computer, and they've used that default browser from Day fucking One.

Microsoft is going to be looking at major lawsuits if they don't immediately push this RC-2/SP-2 patch series out immediately. They owe it to the world and they owe it to those of us who write proprietary software that DOESN'T suck.

(P.S. GMAIL invites! I woke up this morning and saw that my other gmail account got 2 new invites, so if you reply with a funny joke about sex and befriend me, I'll give em out to my two favorite ones.)

Be Reasonable (5, Insightful)

amliebsch (724858) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652320)

It simply isn't fair to blame Microsoft for the ignorance of their users.

Why not? (3, Insightful)

Mz6 (741941) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652343)

" It simply isn't fair to blame Microsoft for the ignorance of their users."

When I build my software applications I have the end-user in mind. Why is it too much to ask the same from Microsoft? Why is they could get away with it, where if I blamed it on the user, it could mean losing my job? You make no sense.

Re:Why not? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9652393)

you paid for a slashdot subscription. you are obviously stupid. and yet, you act as though you still have a job. odd - you think that the end user should not be required to have some understanding of the software in order to use it properly [gee, the people that write all those photoshop books must fucking love you, you fucking dick-eating idiot.] yet i've already shown that you are, in fact, stupid. so people should be fired for having reasonable requests of the user but not for being a fucking retard?

interesting implications. why don't you go fuck yourself?

Re:Why not? (5, Interesting)

kneecarrot (646291) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652396)

No, you make no sense.

The point is that it a user can't expect to just sit on their ass and have someone else inform them about all their choices.

It's called personal responsibility. If there is a Ford dealership close to my house and all I ever do is buy Fords, should Ford be held liable when all my cars fall apart?

Get informed. Use your brain. Own up to the fact that you have to actually make your own choices.

Re:Why not? (4, Insightful)

argent (18001) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652502)

If you buy a Ford and the radio only plays The Ford Station and you need to get a gas tank adapter to use anything but Ford Gas do you think Ford might be held responsible when someone plays a song on The Ford Station that makes Ford Gas explode?

Re:Why not? (5, Insightful)

volinux (680399) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652542)

Ford would be held liable. Remember the Firestone/Ford deal with the bad tires? If a company 's product causes you physical harm because they're negligent, they'll get sued. So why not the same if a company's product causes all your personal information/identity to get stolen?

Re:Why not? (2, Interesting)

Harry8 (664596) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652527)

Yeah and car users should be informed enough to be able to fit their own seatbelts.
Anyone using an electrical appliance should be able to install the necessary insulation themselves.
If they die, then that is their own fault.
The only thing that protects software companies from having to look after their users properly, ie by not shipping them stuff that is an insecure disaster is that you can't trace death & injury directly to consurmer software.
Ah, but Indirectly..? Discuss.

stop spinning (3, Insightful)

Doc Ruby (173196) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652346)

It's fair to hold M$ accountable for taking unfair advantage of the ignorance of users. Who else would educate them? And which would be more appropriate to change, one monopoly company under court administration for illegally exploiting its market, or millions of unorganized consumers with better things to do today?

Stop, right there. (5, Insightful)

khasim (1285) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652550)

Check back to the Netscape trial and read Microsoft's rational for "integrating" the browser with the OS.

Also, check the comments of people who said that doing so would INCREASE the security risks.

Now, read the comments TODAY about the security holes attributed to IE and how difficult it is for Microsoft to fix them.

This is NOT a problem of "the ignorance of their users".

This is a problem that stems from an IDIOTIC approach to security that was motivated by the desire to destroy Netscape as a company.

Re:Microsoft are lying to us (-1, Offtopic)

k3v0 (592611) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652337)

heres the joke, my new friend its not as much about sex, but still funny what does snoop dog use to clean his laundy? BLEEEEAAATCH Thanks if you decide to select.

Re:Microsoft are lying to us (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9652353)

It's not Microsofts problem if your mother can not upgrade. And that has never been different. People have used what their ISPs provided, since dialup WWW started ~10 years ago.
Put another way, you could swap out the engine in your car, but it's not Toyota's problem if you don't. They don't suddenly have an engine monopoly.

Re:Microsoft are lying to us (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9652360)

you're a fucking loser. all of your posts are shit and your journal entries are pure garbage - dickslapper.

why don't you give it up? say, have you ever been laid? the answer is no. you're a fucking toolshed. that's right - you're not a tool, you're an entire collection of tools. no one wants to be your friend so shut the fuck up and stop posting your idiotic drivel. you're so pathetic. you aren't even cool enough to be a troll - you're a fucking troll worshipper. you think your troll friends respect you? no, you're the bitch that is doing the most gay shit possible. troll interviews? who the fuck thinks up that shit? you're a jackass. shut the fuck up and stop posting your garbage. you are a complete loser you worthless fuckstain. your mother is a gutter whore and i hate you.

Re:Microsoft are lying to us (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9652426)

Please, tell us what you really think about him

Re:Microsoft are lying to us (-1, Offtopic)

royoloco (457329) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652368)

Here's one: How do you make a 6 year old cry for the second time? Wipe the blood off your d!ck on her teddy bear.

Re:Microsoft are lying to us (-1, Flamebait)

W2k (540424) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652373)

Here's the oldest joke I remember:

What do you say to a blonde in a wheelchair, who has no arms or legs?
-- Hey, nice tits!

Ow, that was exhausting. Now can I please have an invite?

Re:Microsoft are lying to us (3, Interesting)

mdvolm (68424) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652399)

My mom certainly has no clue that there even IS anything other than IE to use. Most of our mothers probably don't even realize that IE is not "the Internet".

This would indicate to me that if Microsoft didn't ship with IE as "The Internet" (tm), the vast majority of mothers would never even have the opportunity to use the internet. Maybe this isn't quite as bad for everyone as most of us think...

Moms and grandmas not always so dumb (4, Interesting)

kippy (416183) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652400)

I think there is a common misconception that non computer experts are completely clueless. Now before you give me cupholder stories, peep this. A while ago I visited my mother who is in no way a computer expert. To my surprise, I saw a Mozilla icon on the desktop. I asked her if she used it and she said yes. She had downloaded it after hearing on the news how insecure IE was. She did the install (next, next, next, finish) and started using it no problem.

Now she doesn't do all the power user stuff but the point is that with a basic understanding of computer usage she was able to kick the IE habit.

Don't underestimate the ability of the average user to see the problems that IE has and to move away from it. Apathy however can be powerful and I think that's the main culprit.

Re:Microsoft are lying to us (2, Insightful)

supmylO (773375) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652407)

I was using Mozilla yesterday to try and access a site (which was down). When it didn't work, my little brother told me to "use the real internet" (he meant IE) to try and access it. This just kind of shows how some people think that IE is the only thing out there...

Re:Microsoft are lying to us (-1, Troll)

Aliencow (653119) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652412)

How do you call two lesbians in a closet?

a liquor cabinet!

har har har!

david_ross42@hotmail.com

Re:Microsoft are lying to us (-1, Troll)

grendelkhan (168481) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652423)

Guy comes home from work to find his girlfriend holding the newspaper with tears in her eyes.

"What's the matter hon?" he says.

"You're in the newspaper today!" she screams, throwing it at him. "They say you're a pedophile!"

He looks at her and says "Now, that's an awfully big word for a twelve year-old."

Re:Microsoft are lying to us (3, Insightful)

Quarters (18322) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652462)

My mom certainly has no clue that there even IS anything other than IE to use. Most of our mothers probably don't even realize that IE is not "the Internet".

So now Microsoft is the bad guy for not advertising other browsers inside of their product?

When I drive my Subaru it doesn't pop-up ads for Ford.
When I drink my Starbucks I don't get told that I could also be drinking Folgers.

Your statement is illogical. Let me ask you this. If your ignorant mother had a computer that had no web browser on it would she know a different way to get to the Internet, find an FTP site that has browsers for download, retrieve one, and install it?

Didn't think so.

Can your mother use Windows and get to the Internet easily and manage to find information that she is looking for?

Thought so.

Re:Microsoft are lying to us (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9652466)

I don't want an invite, but I'll tell a joke anyway.

A man walks into the bar and orders up 6 shots of vodka.
The bartender says "woah! Six! What's the occasion?"
The man says "well, my first blowjob actually."
Bartender: "Hah! Well i'll give you a seventh shot on the house."
Man: "No thanks... if six vodka shots won't get the taste out of my mouth, nothing will."

Re:Microsoft are lying to us (4, Funny)

Glog (303500) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652467)

Joke about sex? You got it...

Q: You know what Bill Gates's wife discovered on their honeymoon?

A: What Microsoft *really* means!

Re:Microsoft are lying to us (2, Funny)

kahei (466208) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652492)

No they don't. Maybe I do, but I'm a computer expert.

My mom certainly has no clue that there even IS anything other than IE to use.


You do understand that she can still choose? She may of course wish to inform herself about the options first. That's normal.


I find Microsoft guility of contempt -- contempt of not upgrading their browser.


This sweeping change to legal procedure must have passed me by :)

How is that Microsoft's fault? (1)

rd_syringe (793064) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652493)

My mom certainly has no clue that there even IS anything other than IE to use. Most of our mothers probably don't even realize that IE is not "the Internet".

That has nothing to do with Microsoft. Mozilla can freely advertise its products. Microsoft isn't going to do it for them. If your mom has never heard of Firefox, then Firefox needs to get the word out better. That doesn't mean people don't have a choice, it means they're not informed.

He's right--nobody is holding a gun to your head to use IE. For the record, my mom does use Firefox. Of her own free will.

Re:Microsoft are lying to us (1)

Saeed al-Sahaf (665390) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652513)

No they don't. Maybe I do, but I'm a computer expert.

My mom certainly has no clue that there even IS anything other than IE to use. Most of our mothers probably don't even realize that IE is not "the Internet".

And therein lies the problem: Because no consumer oriented company (besides Lindows) pushes OSS on the consumer level, things like Mozilla are not widely know to "mom" and "Joe Whatever".

Re:Microsoft are lying to us (4, Insightful)

shawn(at)fsu (447153) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652517)

Maybe your underestimating your mother. I told my mother to consider using mozillia last week and within 20 minuets she called me back saying she got it. She's not a developer like me, she uses her compuetr for office work, all I had to tell her was to go to Mozilla.org.

I think we need to get over this fear/belief that we /. readers are 1337 and all other people, like our moms, are poor sheep given to the wolves.
Why don't you try telling your mom that their is a different browser out there, give her the URL for Mozilla or what have you.

Maybe you'll find that your mother isn't some backwards internet user but she is actually capable of fending for herself.

Re:Microsoft are lying to us (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9652518)

Most of our mothers probably don't even realize that IE is not "the Internet".

and most of them also think they're switching internets when they change their home page

Re:Microsoft are lying to us (0, Offtopic)

hellken (632943) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652526)

Here's my joke:

What do lesbians do on their birthday?

Eat out.

Re:Microsoft are lying to us (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9652535)

Q: Why are black men's eyes red after sex?
A: From the mace.

Please send your invite to asdf@asdf.com

Re:Microsoft are lying to us (-1, Offtopic)

krs-one (470715) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652543)

Why are guys pubic hair curly?







So women won't poke their eyes out!

Vic - vic @ fotoperfect.net :)

Re:Microsoft are lying to us (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9652544)

(P.S. GMAIL invites! I woke up this morning and saw that my other gmail account got 2 new invites, so if you reply with a funny joke about sex and befriend me, I'll give em out to my two favorite ones.)
Here's a funny joke. Ok, more of a riddle:

How does a blatant troll end up with +5 Interesting?

frist psot (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9652297)

weeeeeeee!

Well (4, Insightful)

arieswind (789699) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652301)

We've seen what they said about it, now all thats left is to see what they DO about it...

Re:Well (5, Informative)

rice_web (604109) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652395)

Quickly looking at that MSDN article, I must say that they are taking some extremely important steps:
  • Does your Web site launch automatic download prompts?
    Microsoft will now suppress downloads not initiated by the user directly.
  • Does your site launch a pop-up from a pop-up?
    Along with other things like this one, Microsoft is effectively blocking pop-up ads this time around. It's should at least rival the offerings from Mozilla, OmniWeb, etc.
  • Do you launch the setHomePage() dialog automatically?
    This is finally gone! No more shithole websites set as the default
  • And then you have to love these suggestions
    • Do not install ActiveX controls using a pop-up window or HTML dialog.
    • Do not suggest to users they should lower their security settings to install an ActiveX control.
    • Do create an instance of the ActiveX control on a standalone page describing the purpose and end-user impact of the control.

Re:Well (1)

Feyr (449684) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652509)

Does your Web site launch automatic download prompts?
Microsoft will now suppress downloads not initiated by the user directly

holy shit! does that mean we will get sourceforge/download.com/cnet.com and all the other morons that make you jump through hoops to download a simple file to redeem their ways?
naaaa unlikely

Re:Well (1)

mfh (56) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652420)

> We've seen what they said about it, now all thats left is to see what they DO about it...

They will likely just keep patching it until it's so bloated from patches that the true reason it's holey will become realized. Showing support for a browser like IE, is Microsoft's way of demonstrating to companies (not individuals) that they support their products. It's beginning to backfire, and slowly but surely, Microsoft will have to introduce a browser that is not exploitable, which is impossible.

I don't want to say Microsoft should embrace the Open Source Standard, but they really could do it and still remain a profitable company.

They are learning what many others have learned a long time ago. To compete, you must be flexible enough to evolve with time and the changes in the market place. Microsoft has been trying to be the one making all the changes, and it's catching up to them because they have missed the boat on the sheer market potential for Open Source.

Oh my... (5, Insightful)

Mz6 (741941) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652322)

"IE is a super powerful Web browser that hundreds of millions of people choose to use," Hachamovitch replied."

Let me be the first to say... HAHAHAHAHAHA.. choose to use? No, we choose to use Mozilla, Opera, Firefox, and the like... but we didn't choose IE.

Perhaps MS has finally looked at themselves and figured they were behind the times with their browser technology. Sure, they might still be #1, but word spreads quick about the underlying problems and that there is actually another browser choice out there... And it's better! The security problems right now are just the icing on the cake.

"CSS3 has actually been in progress for a number of years and you'll find that IE6 already supports some parts of CSS3 such as vertical text layout," wrote Massy. "This is particularly useful for Far Eastern languages. We can't at this time commit to implementing every part of some of these recommendations but we look at these carefully."

Why can't you comment on them? Why wouldn't you implement the CSS3 standard? Am I missing something here?

Re:Oh my... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9652419)

Why wouldn't you implement the CSS3 standard? Am I missing something here?

Because they are creating a browser that is in use by idiots who don't need this functionality.

Re:Oh my... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9652463)

Hey moron the word is commit, not comment. Comment means discuss. Commit means dedicated involvement.

Re:Oh my... (2, Insightful)

(trb001) (224998) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652529)

Why can't you comment on them?

Um, nobody in business, in their right mind, would commit to something that wasn't finalized yet. That's just asking to kicked in the ass when the final document comes out. They'll implement the CSS standard, but in case the consortium decides to put in "And the <monkey> tag will make monkeys fly out of your screen", they don't want to commit to supporting everything yet.

--trb

Microsoft the underdog. (5, Insightful)

MisterP (156738) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652326)

Over the years I've read several books and opinion pieces on Microsoft and their success. "Microsoft as the underdog" was a theme in many of them. I guess it's their strategy for motivating their workforce.

As a peon, what would influence you to work harder? Being told that you're the underdog and you're going to get stomped on by Sun, Apple and probably now Linux, or being told that you have a world wide monopoly in the desktop computing space and companies are throwing buckets of money at you every year despite the fact that your software is mediocre at best.

It seems like a logical thing to tell your employees. I guess they leave out the specifics of exactly where they would be classified as the underdog.

Re:Microsoft the underdog. (2, Funny)

nizo (81281) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652449)

It seems like a logical thing to tell your employees. I guess they leave out the specifics of exactly where they would be classified as the underdog.

Well if you look at browser usage on a galactic scale, they probably have only a tiny portion of the potential browser market. Seriously, how can anyone working at Microsoft feel like an underdog? Do they have daily beatings or something? Whoa look out now, 2% of the people out there have started using some other browser.....

Re:Microsoft the underdog. (5, Funny)

haystor (102186) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652520)

Yea, the "it's time to rest on our laurels" memo didn't really work out for Netscape.

Big Mistake... (5, Insightful)

Zone-MR (631588) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652329)

How can I tell if Internet Explorer has blocked my pop-up window?
Functions that return a window object will return null if the window is blocked. Always check the return value of window.open() before using it to avoid script errors when pop-ups are blocked.

By allowing a script to determine if the popup was blocked, it opens the floodgates for even more annoying and intrusive advertising.

Now whenever the page detects it's popup was blocked, it will force the user to view a full-screen advertising page for a pre-determined time, or other annoyances.

When will advertisers get the message. If people block pop-up windows, they do so for a reason - they are not interested in you're stupid special offers. They should spare themselves the bandwidth and everyone else the annoyance.

Re:Big Mistake... (2, Insightful)

myrdred (597891) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652418)

Hey, its all good! As long as no other pop-up blocking browsers implement this functionality to return null, then these full page ads will only be presented to the IE users, as the website code would think that their pop-ups weren't blocked when they are with Mozilla, Safari, Opera, etc. So as always, better surfing for the rest of us. I love Microsoft. :P

Re:Big Mistake... (1)

Jeff DeMaagd (2015) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652497)

Advertisers seem to like interruption based advertising. It does make sense as unobtrusive advertising rarely gets attention.

I don't think this is necessarily a threat, because there have been instances in the past where web hosts tried to force users to accept pop-ups or pay up if they don't accept them.

And all IE would need is a plug-in to return a false value of window.open() and pretend that information is being exchanged.

IE to block popups. (4, Interesting)

tcd004 (134130) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652333)

The default setting in IE will be to block popups.

This pretty much means that the popup window will be officially dead in a year's time.

tcd004

Re:IE to block popups. (4, Insightful)

cK-Gunslinger (443452) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652406)


This pretty much means that the popup window will be officially dead in a year's time.

Agreed! But only if by "dead" you actually mean "more insidious" or "replaced by even more sinister means to spam-advertise you to death."

I dread the ubiquitous use of pop-up blockers, as that means their effectiveness will soon wane..

Re:IE to block popups. (1)

DFJA (680282) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652411)

Popups? Never heard of them in Mozilla/Konqueror. Would that be an IE-specific thing then?

Re:IE to block popups. (1)

Zone-MR (631588) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652413)

Probably to be replaced with even more intrusive advertising, which as already started to appear (I'll redirect you to the page you want if you sit through a 30 second display of a 2MB animated gif).

I would never purchase any product if I see it's company makes use of intrusive advertising like popups, splash-screen ads, or junk email. If only more people were the same...

Re:IE to block popups. (3, Informative)

Oliver Wendell Jones (158103) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652425)

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the new IE changes are part of WinXP SP2 which means that only people using WinXP will block pop-ups by default?

Most of the problematic friends/relatives/co-workers/etc. who bug me with computer questions are still using Windows 98/ME/2000... heck I know people still using Windows 95 because they're too cheap to upgrade...

I seriously doubt that this is the end of the pop-up ad as we know it...

Re:IE to block popups. (1)

kabocox (199019) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652501)

Most of the problematic friends/relatives/co-workers/etc. who bug me with computer questions are still using Windows 98/ME/2000... heck I know people still using Windows 95 because they're too cheap to upgrade...

Tell them your support for anything pre XP has just expired and for you to work on their hardware or software that they need to either upgrade to Linux or be evil and say XP.

Re:IE to block popups. (1)

strictnein (318940) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652443)

or there will be some work around found that won't be fixed for two years. Even with Firefox you get a popup or two every once in awhile, it's not perfect.

I'm sure it will involve jscript/vbscript/activex/ and the browser's strange ability to allow sites to access your system memory through a solitaire extension to IE that is enabled by default.

Re:IE to block popups. (4, Insightful)

kippy (416183) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652494)

It also means that non-power users will freak out when their banking websites or whatever that use valid popups stop working.

I would add to that prediction that help line call for institutions that use popups as part of their interface will skyrocket.

What about the file download counters? (1)

Ignorant Aardvark (632408) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652345)

I don't get it. Can someone explain the article? What's so special about file download counters that will cause them to break in the new version of IE? I thought they were server-side anyway?

Re:What about the file download counters? (1)

hazee (728152) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652452)

Because they're often implemented as a link to another site - by means of a tiny, or hidden, graphic.

Good riddance to them I say - how many times have you gone to a webpage and had it mostly loaded, but then the browser sits and waits ages to load the off-site component?

I'm guessing that they might be planning to block off-site images, as can already be done in other browsers (ie: the "load images from originating web site only" option in Firefox).

Re:What about the file download counters? (1)

irc.goatse.cx troll (593289) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652487)

You're thinking of ones that arn't made by idiots.
If it relies on popup windows to start the real download and other stupidity, it will now break.

If it relies on just counting actual downloads (access_logs, or just making a cgi/php script spit out the file after counting) it should be fine

Re:What about the file download counters? (5, Informative)

Zone-MR (631588) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652488)

What's so special about file download counters that will cause them to break in the new version of IE? I thought they were server-side anyway?

Since it's more difficult to configure a web server to count downloads of all file types, people often use a PHP script which redirects to the target file.

For example http://server.com/getfile.php?file=test.exe

The PHP script updates the server-side counter and then redirects the user to the real file they wanted.

Ever seen those "Your download should start in 5 seconds..." messages?

The new behaviour will make it impossible to automatically pop up a file download dialog, rendering this type of download counter/anti-leech script usless.

hey (2, Funny)

beeswax (65749) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652348)

"Most of our mothers probably don't even realize that IE is not "the Internet".

Wait... are you telling me IE is not "the internet"?

I think you are on to something.

Innovation (4, Funny)

Giant Ape Skeleton (638834) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652354)

They should really strive to maintain IE's cutting-edge status by incorporating innovative features such as:

tabbed browsing
popup blocking
mouse gestures

Incorporate stuff like that and get a jump on the competition...

Oh, wait....nevermind.

Re:Innovation (1)

metasyntactic (322999) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652537)

You can already get those features from 3rd parties like CrazyBrowser [crazybrowser.com] and from other plug-ins that are freely available.

Not to mention the fact that one can download Mozilla, FireFox, or any of a number of other browsers that give you this functionality.

Why is it a bad thing that different browsers have different functionality and people can go out and have a fine selection of software to choose from?

-- Cyrus (http://blogs.msdn.com/cyrusn [msdn.com] )

In Soviet Russia, (-1, Troll)

192939495969798999 (58312) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652359)

In Soviet Russia, IE chooses you!
oh wait, that's here. It's like an election with one name on the ballot; you can get another ballot if you want, but they don't have any in the building... you have to go to some obscure floor (the 13th floor,perhaps?) in the library to get the full ballot.

Always felt like the underdog (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9652363)

born on third base and thinks he hit a triple

surprise surprise (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9652369)

is it a shock to anyone to find that microsoft still believes that they are the underdog, even thought they are the single largest software company in the world? sheesh...talk about living in denial...

In support (0, Troll)

Guitar Wizard (775433) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652370)

I don't see why so many people bash Internet Explorer (IE). Yes, there are more "secure" browsers out there, such as FireFox, but it's been my experience that IE not only loads pages faster, but has more features and support than FireFox and other browsers do. I have used IE my entire life, and I've never gotten any adware/spyware/viruses on my machine (cookies, of course). Why? Because I implement good browsing habits, like NOT clicking 'Yes' to Gator installations and other programs like it. I think that most users of other browsers criticize IE because it is popular, not because it is a bad browser. SP2 for Windows XP adds pop-up blocking functionality to IE, and from what I can tell so far it works rather well. I'm anxious to see what will happen in the "browser race" in the future.

Re:In support (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9652516)

Seriously, more features? Which features? Besides ActiveXplode?

Troll much? (4, Insightful)

SuperKendall (25149) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652538)

FireFox has been faster (and I mean FASTER) for some time than IE.

And for features, how does IE have more features when you get tabbed browsing and popup blocking in Mozila or FireFox?

What "features" does IE have that FireFox is lacking?

Screw the security updates... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9652371)

I just want tabs in IE...

CSS Support???? (4, Informative)

metalhed77 (250273) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652374)

Let's remember, while Mozilla was still on unstable milestones MS had a much more advanced and working browser. It's barely changed since then. They're dragging their asses. It must have been a decision within microsoft, there's no way they could fuck up THIS BADLY with IE development.

IE stills sucks at CSS support. The bottom line is, when I design something and test it in mozilla, it also looks fine in Opera and Safari. When I look at it in IE there's a very good chance something looks wrong due to some missing feature or weird implementation.

They just hack everything together. You can't even use css like tr:hover although a:hover works because of their shitty implementation.

Re: Microsoft Responds to IE Criticism (4, Informative)

manavendra (688020) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652376)

Looks like MS has now gone for secure by-default way:

1. The modal installation prompt for ActiveX controls will be initially suppressed using the Information Bar.
2. Changes would have to be made to the way some pages automatically redirect or behave differently when refreshed after a control is not installed
3. If the dialog does not provide an option to install the ActiveX control, the file might not be correctly signed. - Phew! No more hidden installs then, hopefully!
4. In SP2, the Information Bar will suppress file download prompts that are launched automatically
5. Enforcement of file-extensions to match the content-type.
6. SP2 will have the pop-up blocker that is turned on by default
7. And, finally, there are some browser window restrictions

I still don't think SP2 will be a panacea, but for corporations with a large number of users, or naive end-users, SP2 should bring a sigh of relief...

underdog (3, Funny)

Doc Ruby (173196) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652378)

Now we see the denial inherent in the system. The delusion apparently goes to the bone. Mean old Department of Justice, picking on nice little Micro$oft... at least the big bad government giant is sleeping now.

he's right (4, Insightful)

dekeji (784080) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652392)

Getting informed is the only way I know to get better. The day we don't get heated feedback I'll be concerned.

Every time you complain to any software company about a bug, a misfeature, or a problem, you are giving them something pretty valuable, something they would otherwise have to pay a lot of money to find through testing. But all your investment in time and bug reporting is repaid by--having to pay for the next upgrade.

It's like sending the company a $50 donation and then still paying $200 for the next upgrade.

That's one of the reasons why it is so important to use open source alternatives when available: when you report bugs in OSS, you don't pay for the resulting improvements over and over again.

Users, not programmers or lines of code, are the most valuable asset any software project has.

Re:he's right (3, Interesting)

hazee (728152) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652551)

Yep, I once found a bug in Access and dialled the support line to check. Turned out that yes, it was a genuine bug, and yes, that was one of my alloted support calls used up.

What a great scheme - I pay for debugging their software.

correction (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9652394)

Internet Explorer in Service Pack 2

That should be WinXP SP2, not IE SP2. They are two different products.

They are Evil, not Stupid (4, Insightful)

LordZardoz (155141) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652402)

One thing that Slashdotters tend to forget in their eagerness to hold Microsoft in contempt is that they are not stupid.

They may not have much respect for the typical consumer, be slow to respond, and ship buggy software, but they are anything but stupid.

From their standpoint, there really is not much imperative need to respond to complaints until they become critical enough to convince a common user to switch to a competing product.

But when it becomes apparant that such a thing is happening, they can and will respond.

END COMMUNICATION

I, for one, (5, Funny)

GillBates0 (664202) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652414)

'I welcome the feedback today. Getting informed is the only way I know to get better. The day we don't get heated feedback I'll be concerned."

am willing to take the responsibility of repeatedly kicking them in the nuts if it'll make them develop better code.

I didn't know they welcome the 'heated feedback'. Poor things...all they had to do was ask.

Underdog (3, Funny)

manavendra (688020) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652416)

For the size of Microsoft, that's quite an underdog!

Wonder how it got there?... oh, bad programming practices for one! :-)

We can't commit... (3, Interesting)

AT (21754) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652447)

In the actual discussion, their reply to any question about concrete features -- including standards support, CSS2, CSS2.1, CSS3, tabbed browsing, and PNG alpha transparency -- was, "We can't at this time commit to implementing xxx but we will look at it carefully."

They seemed evasive and unwilling to say anything except marketing-speak. What's the point of chatting to the community if you aren't allowed to talk about the product?

If Microsoft is the underdog... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9652475)

Does that mean we get to nail them repeatedly with giant red dodgeballs?

Sting time! (1)

ggvaidya (747058) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652476)

This will be particularly important to developers who use ActiveX controls, pop-up windows and file download counters in their websites...

WOW! Can we organise a forum somewhere for these guys to discuss this? I'm sure a lot of slashdotters will be interested in having a "little chat" with the guys who make pop-up windows ...

File Download (1)

gr8_phk (621180) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652478)

Does this mean all the great stuff on sourceforge will no longer download properly? You know: Your download should start in 5 seconds, if not click here. I assume this means those automatically started DLs won't work any more. OTOH, I would never download (or do) anything with IE anyway.

*sigh* (2, Insightful)

Red Dane (771396) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652482)

What, precisely.. is the point of having such a press release?

Is it to engender sympathy b/c microsoft is feeling abused or unloved?

Is it damage control because Microsoft finally figured out that many people are dissapointed in IE?

Or is it a press release that simultaneously tells the masses that Microsoft recognizes the problems, but wants users to still stick with it 'cause they are so concerned?

Hrmmmm

It's a bizzare situation, either way?? :/ what is the point?

Just ruminating.. I'm not trying to be insightful or anything.

Interesting comment about feedback... (5, Interesting)

Randolpho (628485) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652484)

From the article:
I welcome the feedback today. Getting informed is the only way I know to get better. The day we don't get heated feedback I'll be concerned.
He brings up an interesting point. How often to people give heated feedback to, for example, Mozilla/Firefox? I personally find the browser to slow and clunky in many ways, which is why I use IE and a popup blocker (Google Toolbar) rather than Mozilla, for sheer speed.

Which, frankly, sucks because there are so many features on Firefox that I like, but it's so slow that I can't use it for everyday browsing.

My question is this: Are we so anti-Microsoft that we'll settle for clunkier software without complaint, just because it's not made by Microsoft? Where is the hue and cry for a faster, more responsive Firefox? Why do we accept things without complaint just because we admire the politics of the developers?

Re:Interesting comment about feedback... (1)

Red Dane (771396) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652546)

I think it might be a mixture of the two, honestly. Some of us feel compelled to avoid everything Microsoft, just on principle alone. However, others may feel compelled to do a bit of both.. use Microsoft OS for gaming support (off topic, I know), or use Linux for things that actually matter. Just my 2 cents.. doubt that I'm making any sort of revelation with my comment though.

CSS3 support (5, Insightful)

danharan (714822) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652485)

Oh great, they're looking at possibly, maybe doing more to support CSS3.

WTF? I don't want them to add more CSS, I want them to get what they have working like it should.

All the designers I have worked with are mad as hell. The amount of hacks they have to use to produce CSS that is cross-browser compatible and doesn't look like shit on IE is absurd, and the extra time spent on that is killing my budgets.

In other words, I'm mad as hell with IE and Microsoft. I don't really give a damn that IE doesn't have tabbed browsing, or that it ships with insecure defaults. Couldn't give a rat's ass about the lack of pop-up blocking. I care that every f'ing simple web design project's budget has to account for a few extra hours getting their shit working properly.

When FF hits 1.0, I'll go on a mission to convert as many people from IE. I hope others do the same; maybe this will help M$ wake up and smell the standards.

Better suggestion (5, Insightful)

dachshund (300733) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652491)

the IE big wig thinks that all of his engineers should have other browsers installed to see what they can do

No. All of the IE engineers should have a twelve-year-old kid use their computer at night while they're out of the office. Maybe after uninstalling a few thousand pieces of spyware they'll reconsider some of their basic design choices.

Default System Browser (5, Informative)

Foofoobar (318279) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652498)

"People choose," replied Hachamovitch (IE lead engineer). "Hundreds of millions of people actively use Windows and they get to choose. Nothing in Windows as it ships keeps them from downloading other software that extends their browsing experience (e.g. the Google or Ebay toolbars) or changes it (e.g. an alternative browser)."

What a load of shit. I spent 8 hourts on line with MS tech support trying to disable IE entirely from my system. You see, when you remove it, the system recreates it. And even when it isn't there, it uses a default installed version which is integrated into the system.

Microsoft tech support has NO CLUE on how to remove it so I messaed around and came up with a way to have all Microsoft apps default to using Firefox [crackbaby.com] instead

M$ still employs IE engineers? (5, Insightful)

Wizzy Wig (618399) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652508)

What have the IE engineers been doing for the last three years? Handing out towels in the rest rooms?

CSS CSS CSS (5, Insightful)

fredtheshingle (696059) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652521)

Before you folks even THINK about implementing outrageous and curiously new features like... Tabbed Browsing or ActiveX, why don't you seriously think about the fact that the core part of IE is a load of junk. How about making the render engine RENDER XHTML and CSS2 properly?! IMPLEMENT THE STANDARDS *COMPLETELY.*

I, along with so many other developers are sick and tired of hacking our otherwise perfectly valid and conforming CSS and markup to make it display properly in the hack you call a browser, which has remained virtually unchanged since the *conception* of Mozilla's Gecko engine. Before you start implementing *parts* of CSS3, why don't you fully and *PROPERLY* implement CSS2? Have you seen the numerous sites dedicated to Internet Explorer specific CSS hacks? You are the most HATED browser. Developers are outraged. It's ridiculous. No one CHOOSES to use IE.

I feel guilty about flaming you on CSS support. I'd much rather see the browser and company just collapse under the power and superior quality of Free and Open Source software. But since that's not going to happen any time soon, and since you're not going to be shipping Firefox or an alternative with your POS software you call an Operating System, and since it's unfortunate that somewhere like 90% of the population uses that abomination you call Internet Explorer... my head would stop spinning so fast if I could just write valid XHTML markup and valid CSS and ... what a concept ... have it render properly in IE!

Just stop trying and give up, for the good of the common man. Really. Your days are numbered, so why not take some time to think about the good old days, and just let natural progression drag you under.

Thank you.

GIve people choice, get real feedback (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9652524)

The reason why MS is potentially a big deck of cards is that they consistently shove things down peoples' throats and therefore never get to see what they *would* choose if they had the choice. This gives them an artificial sense of satisfaction among their user base, when it's simply a very long and forceful suppression. It's actually in their long-term best interest to provide people options and see what their choice is *absent* coercion. Otherwise, they will continue to eat their seed corn.

one more thing to block by default... (3, Funny)

Zone-MR (631588) | more than 9 years ago | (#9652533)

With popups gone, people will resort to javascript alert()s.

"Do you want to download our new penis enlargment software?" (yes/no)

*clicks no*

"Are you sure you dont? It will make your penis 5 times longer straight away... and if you add it to startup, your penis will grow 5 inches on every reboot. Visit our homepage." (yes/no)

*clicks no*

"Ok, so may we interest you in some generic viagra instead?"

ARGHHHH!
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