Beta
×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

Atomic Veterans Speak Out

michael posted more than 10 years ago | from the lead-lined-jockstrap dept.

Science 796

GoneGaryT writes "Last night I stumbled across the site for Atomic Veterans, the guys in the forces who were present at the Pacific atmospheric nuclear tests and those who 'cleaned-up' Eniwetok 20 years later. There are scores of testimonies, many from men who have a range of cancers or who have since died from them. The absolute and callous disregard for their health and safety at the time is shocking; I suppose the same kind of thing happened to British, French, Russian and Chinese troops in similar circumstances. The Chernobyl pages discussed here a few months ago were eerie; this site is simply heartbreaking. On the one hand, I hate the idea of this site being Slashdotted, on the other hand, people, you've just got to read some of these testimonies. What happened back then is no joke and I'm not sure if we have half the fallout story even now. For the continental US, see this compilation."

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

A map without a key... (5, Insightful)

LostCluster (625375) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671301)

I hate to put information about a topic so serious into the half-credible bin, but what sense are we supposed to make out of black and white map that doesn't have any sort of key? I can't tell if the white or the black is what indicates an area was affected... I think it's the white but I'm just guessing.

Communication helps sometimes.

Re:A map without a key... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671322)

I think it's pretty obvious that it's the white part that is the affected area.

Re:A map without a key... (3, Interesting)

Juggle (9908) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671475)

Would make sense...but the attached article seems to indicate othewise:

"Other people keep pictures of their children in their wallets. I keep a small map I've had laminated to protect it from wear. I pull that map out during many conversations to show how far and wide fallout from nuclear testing was scattered. People are always shocked when they see it. Utah and Nevada are almost completely blacked out, and the black ink spreads as far north as Canada and as far east as New York, with heavy patches scattered throughout the country."

Then again we must remember the #1 rule of website design - it's more important for it to look cool than to actually get the information across. So the map was probably reversed for the "cool" factor of having a black background.

Re:A map without a key... (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671533)

[writing as anon because of my (vague) contact with the defence industry)

Actually you could put a lot of informatio into the picture.
1. It was compiled by a civilian because; the DOE/DOD probably didn't care about the topic of continental radiation.
2. If that's correct and credible data on fallout, it might suggest that they _did_ monitor the fallout. Maybe they didn't belive that the fallout were dangerous at that time, maybe they thought that building nukes to fight the commies were more important or maybe someone earned way to much money on money on it.
3. The data was probably classified until late eighties - 1991. So someone decided that some peolpe could die because testing the nukes where more important.

Re:A map without a key... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671581)

I hate to put information about a topic so serious into the half-credible bin

Well, looking at your insane number of daily posts and karma whoring reputation, such a statement is surprising, coming from you.

Do you have a life, or something?

ANTHRAX, SARIN, GUNS (1)

Sexual Asspussy (453406) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671302)

NUKULAR BOMBS

AAAGH

thx for their efforts and sacrifices (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671317)

the usa atomic program back then saved the world millions of lives.

and prevented millions more from living in dictatorial tyranny.

the bomb ended ww2 and was a great blessing.

When God judges, means justify your end (0, Troll)

BlackTriangle (581416) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671335)

You be going ta Hell, Nagasaki lover!

Re:thx for their efforts and sacrifices (1, Troll)

uberTr011 (768532) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671337)

The Japanese may disagree with you on that one.

Re:thx for their efforts and sacrifices (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671359)

they can disagree all they like.

they murdered millions of chinese, korean, american, south pacific islanders, philipinos, etc. in their treacherous rampage across north east and south east.

worrying about what they think was the least of our worries.

Re:thx for their efforts and sacrifices (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671424)

How does that compare to the multitudes of Native Americans we murdered to live on this very land?

Maybe you should first know what the hell you are talking about before you make such a statement. Thanks.

(Sorry for going a little OT)

Re:thx for their efforts and sacrifices (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671506)

How does that compare to the multitudes of Native Americans we murdered to live on this very land?

I do not believe in hereditary guilt or virtue -- it would be confusing if I did, considering I have both European and Native American blood.

Our responsibility is to each other and to our descendents, since our ancestors are beyond any thoughts of blame or retribution.

Re:thx for their efforts and sacrifices (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671537)

I'd feel a bit more guilty if the Spanish and Portuguese hadn't wiped out 80% of the Natives in North and South America before the US of A was ever a twinkle in Tom Jefferson's eye. Or maybe if the Brits and French hadn't killed off another 10-15% themselves.

You should be a bit more careful with that 'we' word. One other thing, history goes back further than the Louisiana Purchase...even in North America.

Re:thx for their efforts and sacrifices (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671538)

You both have valid statements. Yours does not make his false. So why does your message imply this? HAND

Re:thx for their efforts and sacrifices (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671564)

And how does your argument fit when many of those native americans were violent and murderous towards anyone who used unclaimed land on this continent? Thats not to say a lot of bad things did not occur from the European settlers, but your argumentation convienetly forgets the things the natives did that caused alot of that unfourtunate backlash.

Maybe you should first know what the hell you are talking about before you make such a statement. Thanks.

Re:thx for their efforts and sacrifices (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671439)

who, the civilians who were nuked did all that?

Re:thx for their efforts and sacrifices (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671531)

The government that they supported DID. As you well know.

Re:thx for their efforts and sacrifices (1)

Lord Kano (13027) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671579)

who, the civilians who were nuked did all that?

Those two cities were industrial centers for the Japanese war effort. Those civillians were providing the soldiers with the means carry out their campaign of terror.

LK

You just happen to be on the side that won (3, Insightful)

uberTr011 (768532) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671534)

Yeah, war's a bitch. And everyone is a hypocrite. You just happen to be on the side that happened to win. You can be damn sure that if the allies had lost, there'd be plenty of American (and allied) war criminals to prosecute. How is nuking a civilian city not a war crime? It's not if you win the war, that's how. My point is, every human being to ever walk this earth is a hypocrite.

Re:thx for their efforts and sacrifices (2, Interesting)

0racle (667029) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671582)

Now hold on let me get this straight. What the Japanese did in war was murder, but the dropping of 2 nuclear weapons on civilians was a blessing? Been into the nationalism punch have we?

Many historians also disagree with the assertation that it was required to end the war in the pacific, since the Japanese were already pressing for peace, the Americans were already looking to the next war and needed a way to intimidate the Soviet Union. Instead of linking to a site I'll just link to a Google search Was the Bomb necessary [google.ca] .

Re:thx for their efforts and sacrifices (4, Insightful)

jdhutchins (559010) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671529)

If we hadn't bombed Japan, we would have invaded, and they would have fought to every last man, woman, and child. More than 2 cities would have been destroyed, and the death toll would have been much heigher. Dropping the bomb was a favor for the Japanese as well as us, and I've heard this opinion it on various NPR talk shows as well.

Re:thx for their efforts and sacrifices (5, Insightful)

Lord Kano (13027) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671558)

The Japanese may disagree with you on that one.

The Japanese love to cry about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but when the Rape of Nanking comes up, they adopt a "who us?" attitude. War is hell. Awful things happen to good people during times of war. Japan does not deserve an apology.

Had we not used those two nuclear weapons, Japanese resolve wouldn't have been broken for years and many more Japanese and Americans would have died as a result.

LK

Re:thx for their efforts and sacrifices (3, Insightful)

kfg (145172) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671577)

They may well disagree, but the fact is the Japanese surrender saved untold millions of Japanese lives that would have been lost in an invasion of the Japanese islands, most of whom would have been "civilian" ( as with our other wars in Asia we would have found that women and children were armed combatants quite willing to die to the last "man" to defend their homeland. Guam would have looked like a cakewalk in comparison).

Such an invasion would have also destroyed what is perhaps the most remarkably peaceful post war occupation in world history, American civilians almost universally reporting that they were able to wander freely and alone in perfect safety because the Japanese treated them like honored guests, despite the fact that American military personel were not nearly always so polite.

KFG

Re:thx for their efforts and sacrifices (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671412)

WAR IS PEACE!
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY!

Lameness filter encountered. Post aborted!
Reason: Don't use so many caps. It's like YELLING.

STOP MODDING UP TROLLS!!! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671509)

Crack-smoking Mod fucktards! No wonder this place has gone to hell in a handbasket.

Re:thx for their efforts and sacrifices (1)

cfuse (657523) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671540)

... and prevented millions more from living in dictatorial tyranny.

Someone hasn't been paying very much attention, have they?

True dat (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671320)

Yes, and the other real shame is the obsession that certain groups have with the effects of radiation. One of the main reasons why the USA has not progressed to using nuclear for bulk power is the overzealous regulations by the government, passed by under-educated representatives who's ears are turned by hyper-sensitive environmentalists.

Nuclear Boogie Man (2, Insightful)

DarthVeda (569302) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671488)

The public fears the word "nuclear" as a little child fears the word "boogie man." How a microwave was ever sold is beyond me...

Re:Nuclear Boogie Man (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671541)

The public fears the word "nuclear" as a little child fears the word "boogie man."

Actually, I fear the boogie-woogie man.

And disco. God, I hate disco.

Radiation causes cancer? (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671321)

Whoa.

You say 'Whoa', but... (1, Flamebait)

krog (25663) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671402)

You'd think that would discourage the use of depleted uranium in modern warfare.

But you'd be wrong.

America fights dirty.

Re:You say 'Whoa', but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671459)

America fights dirty???!!!

Remember a small incident involving crashing commercial airliners into civilian buildings? Don't talk about military debris when you ignore terrorist killings of civilians outside any warzone, who had no inkling that they were at risk.

Re:You say 'Whoa', but... (1)

Roguelazer (606927) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671501)

Yes, because if somebody does something mean to your civilians, that means that you have free reign to do something mean to everybody else's civilians. After all, they're the problem, right? I mean, if it weren't for those damned civilians, everything would be hunky-dory...

Re:You say 'Whoa', but... (1)

LostCluster (625375) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671462)

America fights dirty.

And if you haven't noticed, Al Queda has a tendancy to strike low blows too.

It'd be nice if everybody followed the Geneva Convention, but it's starting too look like that's too much to ask.

Re:You say 'Whoa', but... (0)

Nikkodemus (763778) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671545)



Al Queda, Al Queda.. always comes back to that, the spooks have done a fine job of hacking your mind!

Depleted Uranium rounds are just plain nasty.. against civilians, against soldiers (both the target and the origin dispatcher..), against the environment. There's good evidence out there to back up the nastiness, that even a non-depleted asshat like yourself would have to accept as truth.

Re:You say 'Whoa', but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671585)

Here is a simple experiment I would like you to try. Find various materials that we use in modern warfare, or in every day life, that no one whines about. Metals, chemicals, petrochems, etc... Now, grind them up into fine powder, or atomized liquid, then inhale them. Make sure to keep a record sheet of the ones that will give you cancer! Finally report back to ./

Re:You say 'Whoa', but... (1)

Daemonik (171801) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671586)

America fights dirty.
I'm not sure if you noticed, what with your head up your ass and all, but nobody else except maybe the Swiss fight by the 'rules' either.

For 50 years Russia was our dance partner in assuring the worlds swift and radioactive death and Stalin's willingness to send millions of his own people to 're-education' (death) camps wasn't the kind of thing that lets national security advisors sleep easy at night.

Hell, I'm still expecting a permanent sunburn just because some whack job in North Korea might decide to play Russian Roulette or perhaps the Pakistanis and Hindus might finally decide the world would be better off without one of the others. Then there's terrorism, the non-government funded really whackjob kind because nothing makes you want to play by gentleman's rules like someone who thinks God told them to kill you.

Uranium (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671325)

I, for one, welcome The Bomb.

The flip side of the coin. (1, Insightful)

LostCluster (625375) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671329)

Let's just give the people behind atomic bombs a little bit of credit for what they've done for world history...

The use of the weapon was the knockout blow that ended the first World War. There's know way of telling how many lives were saved as a result of the war ending then compared to going on for however longer it would have went without it.

The fact that both the US and the USSR had nuclear weapons during the cold war scared both sides into being unable to use them. Mutually Assured Destruction was a valid theory because USSR fell not by military attack but simple political failure.

In fact, the biggest threat the USA faces today is not from any organized state but from stateless terrorists who would love to get ahold of nuclear weapons, but don't have a government worth of resources to develop what history has proven is quite a hard thing to come accross and control.

Those who forget history are doomed... (5, Funny)

Jack_Frost (28997) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671350)

Just like the Germans that bombed Pearl Harbor.

Re:Those who forget history are doomed... (1)

tabacco (145317) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671369)

Quiet, he's on a roll! :)

Re:The flip side of the coin. (4, Informative)

mcnut (712202) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671358)

just a little fyi, we used the nuke in the Second world war... using it in the first would be highly improbable, as we didn't even have planes that could deploy it at the time.

Re:The flip side of the coin. (4, Funny)

LostCluster (625375) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671446)

One of the fun parts about Slashdot is when you make a factual error, there's no shortage of people to fix your mistake...

Re:The flip side of the coin. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671546)

Deploying would have been hard indeed - but not completely impossible (heck, a Zeppelin could have done it; planes ... not quite so easily). Getting away in time would have been the utterly impossible part.

Re:The flip side of the coin. (2)

new account for mod (787682) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671361)

The use of the weapon was the knockout blow that ended the first World War.

Which World War?!?!

Re:The flip side of the coin. (2)

dopaz (148229) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671367)

Do you mean the second world war, or is the first world war not named as such outside of the US?

Re:The flip side of the coin. (1)

chgros (690878) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671371)

The use of the weapon was the knockout blow that ended the first World War/I
Ermm... The SECOND World War. And by that time it was mostly finished (Germany at least had surrendered), though of course who knows how long the Japanese might have fought on.

Re:The flip side of the coin. (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671386)

Hey, could someone else please point out it was the second world war? We need to make sure this is pointed out. We really do. It's important. Someone might think it was the first World War when it was really the second. You know? That's important. We can't allow a mistake like this to be uncorrected. Anyone?

Re:The flip side of the coin. (4, Insightful)

wwest4 (183559) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671395)

> There's know way of telling how many lives were saved as a result of the war
> ending then compared to going on for however longer it would have went without
> it.

If there's no way of knowing, then isn't it impossible to say exactly whether it was a good or bad decision?

> In fact, the biggest threat the USA faces today is not from any organized state
> but from stateless terrorists who would love to get ahold of nuclear weapons,
> but don't have a government worth of resources to develop what history has
> proven is quite a hard thing to come accross and control.

The hardest part, by far, is obtaining enough fissile material. Luckily for terrorists and not so lucky for there targets, the cold war left behing lots of fissile material, some of which has gone missing according to the news.

Re:The flip side of the coin. (1, Informative)

wwest4 (183559) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671420)

er, their targets.

Re:The flip side of the coin. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671451)

fissile material

Is it just me, or does that sound like something snoop dogg might say?
Gimme some fissile materiaizzle, foe shizzle mah nizzle

Re:The flip side of the coin. (0, Troll)

mOoZik (698544) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671397)

What a sad way to justify the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians. One bomb would have sufficed, but since ending the war was not their only motive, they had to drop two to test their effectiveness. It has to be the darkest moment in American history.

Re:The flip side of the coin. (5, Informative)

sockonafish (228678) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671447)

Japan didn't surrender after the first bomb, thus a second was justified. Their effectiveness had already been shown in the Southwestern US, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not tests. How many times does it have to be said that a prolonged war with Japan would have cost more lives than ending the war with nukes?

Re:The flip side of the coin. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671485)

> "How many times does it have to be said that a prolonged war with Japan would have cost more lives than ending the war with nukes?"

I'd love to see this successful future-prediction experiment that you're apparently referring to.

Re:The flip side of the coin. (1)

Hey_Bliss (777683) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671536)

It has to be the darkest moment in American history.

Saddly, I've seen this same phrase being said a lot of times already about different events alongside american history...

Re:The flip side of the coin. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671398)

Yeah, and the flip side is that the business of making nuclear weapons has produced, and continues to produce, lots of radioactive waste and has created vast contaminated areas in the US - the list of 'em is a book the size of the Manhattan white pages. The harmful effects of radiation may be exaggerated, then again they may not be, there is no way you or I can really know for sure.

Re:The flip side of the coin. (-1, Troll)

Adartse.Liminality (742343) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671454)

Some people were itching to use their new toy, tens of thousands of civil lifes were acceptable losses, they weren't 'them'...back then and today, the fact that at the same time they were fearing the world-power that actually defeated the germans... and in their fear o'em, in their rush to show 'their power', they gave an amoral and unnecesary order. USA has never had any respect for life now nor ever.

Once there was Mutually Assured Destruction, today is just one sided stupidity.

You!! yes, You are and acceptable 'loss' as I am.
Freaking warring Nation
Karma is an acceptable loss, life is NOT

Re:The flip side of the coin. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671489)

First World War? *cough* Try the Second World War.

The war was over without the detonation of atomic weapons. The fire-bombing of Tokyo was more destructive than both bombs. What is memerable is that ONE bomb could unleash such misery and pain. The USA dropped the bombs to make sure that the whole world knew that they were the biggest, baddest dog on the block. That didnt last long as we all know that the foolishness led to the arms race (and atomic 'testing ... which is what these sites were about).

As far as 'The biggest threat'...

Since 'A' bombs are 1940's technology, rushing around trying to cure this threat is silly, but the threat of such threats can always get a village idiot elected (not RE-elected as he did not get elected in the first place).

This would be a classic case where (1, Insightful)

RLiegh (247921) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671334)

having a site devoted to mirroring sites featured by slashdot would be a great idea (at least, if you linked to them instead of to the original site).

Why isn't this done? Copyright concerns? Disorganisation? Procrastination? Or...?

Trinity: The Atomic Bomb Movie (5, Interesting)

Ralph Spoilsport (673134) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671340)

The story reminds me of the above mentioned movie. Has a lot of footage of these people. It doesn't talk abouttheir lives, but wherever I watch the movie I know those poor bastards are getting massively irradiated.

One of the creepiest sections is where chinese troops put gas masks on their horses and charge the mushroom cloud with AK47s blazing. Freaky. It laos has people in lawn chairs watching explosions, and people in trenchs watching explosions, and explosions sinking an entire abandoned Navy and all kinds of crap.

The other cool thing about the movie is this: it's narrated by Captain Kirk himself.

RS

"narrated by Captain Kirk himself." ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671375)

You mean, like, he came back in time and jumped from the fictional star trek universe into our universe and is now trying to build a career in hollywood?

Re:Trinity: The Atomic Bomb Movie (1)

Detritus (11846) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671548)

I know those poor bastards are getting massively irradiated.

How do you know that? The prompt radiation from a nuclear detonatation has a limited range in comparison to the blast and thermal effects. A slit trench will protect you from the immediate effects of a nuclear detonation at surprising close range. The important danger is the fallout plume. If you stay out of the fallout plume (downwind area), you should not have any problems.

All I Have To Say Is... (1, Flamebait)

Snagle (644973) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671342)

You Can't Hug Your Children With Nuclear Arms! No, but seriously, those guys got hosed :(

IN SOVIET CHERNOBYL; NUCULAR ARMS HUG YOU! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671357)

My GrandFather... (4, Interesting)

Aardpig (622459) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671345)

...has a couple of photos of the first British H-bomb test on Christmas Island in his album. He was in one of the observation planes which recorded the test. Luckily, it appears that he was sufficiently far enough away not to be affected by radiation or fallout -- he is 86, and still going strong.

Re:My GrandFather... (4, Interesting)

jackb_guppy (204733) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671458)

So is my father...

He was at Bikini helped setup and "clean-up" afterwards. No cancers or other tell-tales.

He does joke why his kids are taller then them though... he 6'2" and kids 6'2" to 6'10". For us it was all the manure between our toes while cleaning the barn.

Bow to your owner (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671352)

THE FOLLOWING ARTICLE, BY LEE CHENEY,
APPEARED IN "BRITAIN & OVERSEAS",
THE QUARTERLY JOURNAL
OF THE ECONOMIC RESEARCH COUNCIL, LONDON,
ON PAGE 19-21 OF THE SPRING 1999 ISSUE (VOL.29, NO.1):

There is an old saying that "if people are told a lie often enough they will come to believe that lie to be true". The truth is, that it is an outright lie to tell people that banks do not print money when banks make loans. (Actually Hitler said this.-JB)

Every even half educated person in economics and finance understands the accounting process of "loan created deposits" (bank printed money in the context of M1, M2, M3, C, L, etc.). Some people try to tell us that "the notion that banks create money by lending is a fallacy" (T.B. Haran, B&O p.24, Vol.21 No2, Summer 1991). But everybody who knows anything at all about bank accounting knows that banks do, in fact, print (create) money by making loans. Then, of course, there are those who play word games with us and try to tell us that banks do not print (create) money because what banks actually do is simply create "credit" (which is interest, debt, and tax slavery for everybody else, including the government). And there are those who try to tell us that "the debt/tax slavery scenario is an illusion"
-- (T.B. Haran, B&O p. 20, Vol.21, No.3, Autumn 1991).

Everybody who know anything about income and expenses knows that when a person (or business or government) has more interest, debt and taxes to pay than they have income to pay it with they are bankrupt. Bankrupt simply means "insolvent". "Insolvent" means to be so heavily burdened with interest, debt, and taxes that there is no hope of paying them, so you're "bankrupt". Well, here are some hard facts that even Mr. Haran can not deny or play word games with: THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS BANKRUPT (INSOLVENT). It is common knowledge in America that the American people must pay 47% of their income in taxes and, according to the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis, the American people must pay 81% of their income to pay debt.

Now it doesn't take a genius to figure out that 47% + 81% = 128%. And that doesn't even consider the burden of paying interest on that debt. In simple language, it is humanly impossible for the American people to pay the interest, debt and tax burden levied on them by the American Federal Reserve debt/tax slavery money printing banks. This is the bottom line of the debt/tax slavery sceario that Mr. Haran says "is a fallacy". Internationally, the IMF/World Bank interest/debt/tax slavery money system has the whole world in the same interest/debt/tax slavery mess.

Of course, Mr. Haran can propose his "bilateral money theory" from now until doomsday and no doubt there will be those gullible enough to support him and believe him but before people get sucked in too far, they should at least consider that p.3 of "Modern Money Mechanics", published by the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, says, "the actualy process of money creation takes place in the banks". And if that doesn't convince Mr. Haran and his gullible followers that our interest/debt/tax slavery nightmare is a bank caused problem at least consider the statement in "Government Debt and Credit Creation", Research Report No.9, published by the Economic Research Council, December 1981 which says, "the commercial banking net contributions to M1 is called 'creation of credit...'"

It is pathetic that people actually believe that banks do not print money when banks make loans and that the debt/tax slavery scenario is an illusion. But it is even more pathetic that The New World Order is ready to trigger WWIII in order to expand this evil IMF/World Bank interest/debt/tax slavery money system into Eastern Europe.

Radio Bikini (5, Informative)

wwest4 (183559) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671353)

For those who are interested in what the natives went through as well as the navy guys, check out Radio Bikini. [imdb.com] There's some good clips of the blasts, too.

Re:Radio Bikini (-1, Offtopic)

new account for mod (787682) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671417)

[witty anti-microsoft tidbit]

And I reply:
[incisive open-source wordcraft]

pictures from ground zero (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671364)

ground zero [qwest.net]

vegas and utah got smoked (1)

sakura the mc (795726) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671368)

man, on the map showing the range of the nuclear testing aftermath, southern nevada and utah were almost totally covered. i wonder if those clouds could have carried over any kind of effects to this day...

Re:vegas and utah got smoked (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671391)

Maybe the U.S. government was trying to get rid of the Mormons?

Re:vegas and utah got smoked (1)

sakura the mc (795726) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671416)

rofl

Re:vegas and utah got smoked (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671401)

It's called the Rio Grande Valley. Very high levels of lithium (natural) and radioactive lithium (definitely unnatural).

completely anecdotal (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671372)

but remember that oppenheimer, feynman, fermi, slotin, serber, a few dozen others and both pilots of the enola gay died of cancer. Some decades after, some days.

Actually i got a true story about this... (5, Interesting)

TheSystem_ERRor (781001) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671383)

My grandfather's ship was nuked. Yup. What happened was they were going to test out the weapon, so they gave the crew a brand new ship, and their old ship, along with others, were docked in a bay and nuked. Then the crew, including my grandfather, swept the radioactive dust off the deck and went back to work. He was fine, but there was a very high cancer rate amoung veterans. He never got cancer in all his life. Also, regarding the spread of radioactive dust in the US, because of this, most people do have harmless accumulations of radioactive isotopes in there bodies.

Re:Actually i got a true story about this... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671490)

Um, I dont know what you call being "nuked", but if you can simply walk away from a nuclear explosion, I think you should be called Superman. Not only did you survice an explosive blast, you also survived exposure to radiation that should have killed you instantly and the rest of the nearby town soon afterwards.

More likely, what you are describing is some type of overexposure to radiation which could have happened a variety of ways, but saying they were "nuked" is a totally ignorant and bastardized of the use of that word.

Re:Actually i got a true story about this... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671553)

It was his older ship, which was nuked, at a distance, with no one on board.

Re:Actually i got a true story about this... (5, Interesting)

acceber (777067) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671566)

He was fine, but there was a very high cancer rate amoung veterans. He never got cancer in all his life.

I am currently in remission after having Acute Myeloblastic Leukaemia for the past couple of months. It's interesting how some people who have been exposed to radiation and all sorts of nasties which could potentially develop into cancer, never get it. Whilst others who have been through nothing of the sort get cancer, like myself.

I live a normal life, the doctors don't know why I got Leukaemia and don't know why lots of other people who come for treatment at the same hospital gets Leukaemia or any other cancer for that matter. There are a lot of people I stayed with who were elderly men and had been exposed to nuclear radiation or war situations where the risk of cells mutating into cancer is higher than the rest of the population.

Sadly, cancer continues to take a hold on the lives of many people and although a cure is bound to occur sometime in the future, our grandfathers and ancestors who put their lives on the line to save their nations or whatever don't get to see that cure.

I'm in remission but that doesn't mean I'm cured. The absolute and callous disregard for their health and safety at the time _is_ definitely shocking and when I see that somebody like me who hasn't done anything as brave and courageous as our forefathers, it kinda makes me feel guilty that I am getting better but they had no chance.

My Grandpa saw some test bombings (1)

Cyberhwk (778308) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671390)

My Grandpa saw some test bombings. He was a really cool guy and I wish I got to know him better. He died of cancer when I was really little. I remember my father telling me what was happening and me not completely understanding whats going on. I never got to really know him and the rest of my grandparents I have left aren't worth knowing. :(

You think that's something? (-1, Offtopic)

AltGrendel (175092) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671400)

You should hear what goes on in Area 51!!!

complimentary and timely (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671407)

See today's BBC article Still no fix on nuclear waste. [bbc.co.uk]

That's just Britain. It's a lot more alarming in many other places in Europe and Asia.

Numerical Data? (5, Insightful)

A1kmm (218902) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671408)

This site has a relatively limited number of stories, and the people who posted them are a self-selected group. People who got cancer are more likely to post.

Of course, any group of people of a size as large as the group who could be considered an "atomic veterans", and of the same sort of age demographic, would have a reasonable number of people who had cancer.

What would be interesting is a study where individuals were selected randomly from all "atomic veterans", and then a statistical analysis of these, compared to a general group from the population with the same age demographics.

There is a biological expectation that being an "atomic veteran" would increase your risk of cancer, but looking at this site does not provide much evidence for that point due to the lack of statistical validity.

Re:Numerical Data? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671478)

check out this study. [dav.org]

Re:Numerical Data? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671508)

another link [216.239.51.104]

Re:Numerical Data? (5, Interesting)

bcrowell (177657) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671551)

What would be interesting is a study where individuals were selected randomly from all "atomic veterans", and then a statistical analysis of these, compared to a general group from the population with the same age demographics.
The kind of doses they're talking about are actually too small to make this work. For instance, this [aracnet.com] guy says "...4 years ago, our Health Physics people told me that I had the highest recorded occupational dose of anyone in Canada," which turns out to be 150 mrem. Well, 150 mrem is on the same order of magnitude as natural background for one year. (It depends on things like whether you live in Denver, and whether you have radon in your basement.) The added cancer risk is simply infinitesimal, and this was apparently an unusually high dose.

People just don't seem to want to admit that radiation exposure is a risk, and that the risk is small and quantifiable. Check out this [wikipedia.org] wikipedia article to learn about the units involved. Most cancer is caused by something other than radiation, and nearly all radiation exposure is natural exposure anyway, at the epidemiologial level.

I'd be more concerned about the survivors of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings...or veterans working in shipyards who got exposed to asbestos... or some of the ones who got a case of acute lead poisoning via a bullet.

Re:Numerical Data? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671572)

Just remember that this might even out, as many of those that got cancer are unable to speak about it today...

Troy, NY (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671426)

Troy, NY has recieved a lot of radioactive fallout.

A quick googling returned this site:

http://www.rpi.edu/dept/NewsComm/Magazine/fall03 /c lassnotes/classnotes2.html

I know there are others to back this story, but if you take a map and look at how far away Troy, NY is from Las Vegas, NV, it might frighten you a little.

As a resident of beautiful scenic Troy, NY, I can proudly say that this fallout has never had an effect on my life, I really like those extra fingers....

I had a neighbor who was a sailor (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671428)

in the South Pacific during the nuclear tests. I have no proof it was related, but I do know he had cancer that basically basically crippled him, and one leg was amputated first below the knee, then at the knee, then at the hip. He was confined to a wheelchair for the last decade of his life before it eventually killed him.

If we expect soldiers to risk their lives in service to this country, they have every right to expect their lives won't be thrown away for nothing. It shows a lack of respect to endanger them, then ignore them when they need our help.

Re:I had a neighbor who was a sailor (1)

cfuse (657523) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671573)

If we expect soldiers to risk their lives in service to this country, they have every right to expect their lives won't be thrown away for nothing. It shows a lack of respect to endanger them, then ignore them when they need our help.

Do you know the term "cannon fodder"? The guns get bigger but the people doing the planning don't get any smarter.

It's not over, yet. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671437)

Okay, now that you've been to the site and read their stories, consider what will happen when somebody detonates a dirty bomb (not even a real nuke) in one of our major cities. It probably will happen in the next ten years.

Perhaps, if /. is still around, a slashdotter will put up a web site for that bomb victims' stories.

Great article! (3, Insightful)

orthogonal (588627) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671444)

From a reminiscence on the linked site: We were required to lie face down, with an arm over our eyes untill [sic] ten seconds after the blast. I recall being able to see through my arm, like looking at an x-ray!

The guy talks about the amazing fauna he saw while scuba diving between atomic tests, and the requisite topless natives, and concludes that he wouldn't have missed for anything!

I suspect others may not share that opinion, of course, and I doubt I would.

Good find, GoneGaryT, and good work approving it, Michael.

Slashdot is improved by articles like this.

Remember... (5, Interesting)

Lifix (791281) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671484)

Until recently we have not had a thourough understanding of the effects of radiation on the human body and other organisms. To this day there are very few effective treatments for radiation exposure. Most people still aren't aware that the most destructive carcinogen, (the object that causes the most cancers in the USA) is our good old friend the sun. During the tests of the atomic weapons the effects, and the amount of radiation released was unknown. So despite the terrible effects of these weapons had, not only on the people we used them on, but on the people we tested them around, it was not intentional that our soldiers were exposed. *Interesting side note: During WW I women were hired to paint the controlls on the inside of fighter planes. The paint was composed of radium, so that pilots could see the controlls in the dark. The women would like their brushes between painting jobs to keep the tip fine enough for the small writing. When the women died, they had to be buried in lead lined coffins. *

Same in UK and China. Any Franch/ USSR example? (3, Informative)

AtomicBomb (173897) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671493)

I suppose the same kind of thing happened to British, French, Russian and Chinese troops in similar circumstances

I can recall cases that involved British, Australian and New Zealand soldiers. Last year, there was a documentary about the nuclear test happened in Australia [aic.gov.au] . While Australia herself is nuclear weapon free, it was being used as a testing ground for the British test program... Some veterans were exposed to high radiation doses because of wind shift, miscalculated yield and reasons like that. In theory, the commanders could just place the film badges and dosimeters. But, the military planner at that time really wanted to stretch that a bit further. From memory, PLA did the same thing after the first Chinese atomic test in 1964. Some troops were ordered to drive/ march across the ground zero after some precalculated "safety hours"....

The Cold War was a crazy time in human history Well, we might be committing something equally ridiculous right now without realising that... I am quite sure the situation is the same in France and USSR. Any example?

In Soviet Russia (-1, Flamebait)

poofyhairguy82 (635386) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671519)

The absolute and callous disregard for their health and safety at the time is shocking; I suppose the same kind of thing happened to British, French, Russian and Chinese troops in similar circumstances.

In Soviet Russia, health and safety disregards you.

many manhattan deaths too. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671521)

remember that oppenheimer, feynman, fermi, slotin, serber, a few dozen others and both pilots of the enola gay died of cancer or radioation poisoning. Some decades after, some days.

Slow down, cowboy! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#9671550)

Slashdot requires you to wait 2 minutes between each successful posting of a comment to allow everyone a fair chance at posting a comment.

It's been 1 minute since you last successfully posted a comment

Weird (1)

nahorniak (748466) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671562)

In some pictures, near the actual explosion, there are rows of criss-crossing smoke trails. What causes that?

Living in Utah... (1)

confusedneutrino (732640) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671574)

Now I have -more- reason to leave... *shudder*

Splitting the Atopic (1, Flamebait)

Mulletproof (513805) | more than 10 years ago | (#9671591)

Ok, but is there really a point to this story? I mean really. It's pretty common knowledge that corners were cut to get nuclear programs fielded in time and it's pretty well known that those involved didn't always come out unscathed. This isn't exactly news here. It hasn't been for a long time. Is there really anything beyond the "Ode to the victims of nuclear power" moral lesson I should be getting here, cuz I just ain't feeling it. If this stuff were still happening today I may give an extra shit or two, but the days of ignorance and nessecity are far, far behind us when it comes to the blind employment of nuclear testing and such.

Now why do I doubt that you'll never see a story posted here taking the opposite position-- The benefits of nuclear power and how it was instrumental in stopping Stalin, a real, hardcore mass murderer in check.

Corners were cut. People died due to ignorance. It's sad, but it's not news. In fact, it's been covered and documented in every possible way. But hey, what's a little more rehash between friends, right?
Load More Comments
Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?