×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

PHP 5.0 Goes For Microsoft's ASP-dot-Net

Hemos posted more than 9 years ago | from the classical-battles dept.

PHP 478

Dozix007 writes "Uberhacker.Com reports : Zend Technologies quietly announced last week the final release of the open source PHP version 5. An interesting article reports the different strengths and weaknesses of ASP vs. PHP, and it becomes quite clear that with the release of PHP5, Zend has taken a shot at ASP's heart. The differences from PHP4 to 5 has created a clear advantage for the new preprocessor over Microsoft's proprietery ASP."

cancel ×
This is a preview of your comment

No Comment Title Entered

Anonymous Coward 1 minute ago

No Comment Entered

478 comments

How about we post to a MS whitepaper instead? (5, Insightful)

strictnein (318940) | more than 9 years ago | (#9737808)

Interesting how the head-to-head with PHP 5.0 and ASP.NET is hosted on Oracle's site. I guess it's not like Microsoft and Oracle [mssqlcity.com] make competing products or anything [microsoft.com].

We might as well Get the Facts on Windows and Linux [microsoft.com].

This says it all (5, Insightful)

d_jedi (773213) | more than 9 years ago | (#9737839)

In this article I'll focus on PHP, the technology Oracle has chosen to incorporate into its products, and ASP.NET.

Yup, I expected a completely unbiased article after reading this in the second paragraph..

Re:How about we post to a MS whitepaper instead? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9737868)

That Microsoft URL is obviously biased. Check out this site [linuxmyths.org] for an unbiased comparison.

PHP 5.0 Goes For Microsoft's ASP-dot-Net (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9737810)

Microsoft laugh, yawn. Balmer states "I think I'll take a nap."

Re:PHP 5.0 Goes For Microsoft's ASP-dot-Net (4, Interesting)

superpulpsicle (533373) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738007)

Seriously this is probably priority 100 on his list. ASP already has had such a long foothold on server side scripting that it'd take a lot to convince existing pages to change over to PHP.

Ok, here is where I object: (5, Insightful)

Bold Marauder (673130) | more than 9 years ago | (#9737811)

Price. Here, we must consider not simply the price tag of the initial investment, which, in the case of PHP, is obviously free, but also the implementation, maintenance, and debugging costs. In the case of PHP, you may invest in the Zend optimization engine. With ASP, however, you're investing from the very beginning,
and you're spending for add-on technologies--libraries for doing graphics manipulations, for instance. But, in the long term, PHP isn't going to press you to upgrade and collect more licensing fees. Everyone who has dealt with complex licensing also knows that companies spend time and money just ensuring they are compliant. Furthermore, you have a difference in response when getting bugs fixed. This, of course, translates to time, which translates to cost for overall development.


So...I have to pay for features that I can get from the competitor for free, I have to pay (my employees) to insure that I am paying what I need to (for a product wich offers comparable services as the competitor) and I get to continually be pressed to upgrade and give them more money in licensing fees.

[sarcasm]Gee whiz, mister; where do I sign up?[/sarcasm]

Re:Ok, here is where I object: (4, Insightful)

mingot (665080) | more than 9 years ago | (#9737990)

Hrm, last time I checked the entire System.Graphics namespace was part of the framework and not an add-on that costs money. It's quite capable. And MS sells no graphics library to suppliment it, so I am wondering how they press you to upgrade and collect license fees for something that doesn't exist.

Last time I ALSO checked, though LEADTools (an image manipulation library) was really expensive. Of course it does a lot (LOT) more stuff than the built in libraries. Oh, and keep in mind that this is from a 3rd party vendor, not MS as the article would fud you into believing.

I guess the fact that a very competent libary is included and that MS is letting 3rd party tool vendors make money is a bad thing today. Of course if this was an article about MS buying out an image manipulation library company and then giving it away for free would be bad because it stifles competetion and puts people out of work. Funny how putting people out of work is only bad when MS does it. If a bunch of college kids do it in the name of 'free software' it's just peachy.

Re:Ok, here is where I object: (5, Insightful)

Bold Marauder (673130) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738074)

Funny how putting people out of work is only bad when MS does it. If a bunch of college kids do it in the name of 'free software' it's just peachy.

When MS does it, the tools they use to put people out of work with are hidden behind a wall of EULAs, patents and lawyers. When "college kids" (or professionals working in their spare time, or professionals working for a company such as IBM) do it, they release the product out into the community, where other people who are working are free to pick up on the source and either charge to customise it, or charge for support it. Of course, if that 'free software' is under the GNU License, it's perfectly ok to sell it [gnu.org].

So, to summarise; when MS puts people out of work with their products, only they benefit. When "free software" does it, the entire computing community benefits, as does the economy (eg, people working for Sun, IBM, Novell who work on OSS projects).

Re:Ok, here is where I object: (-1, Flamebait)

mingot (665080) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738151)

Honestly, do you think the poor fuck who just got the pink slip REALLY gives a mad assed shit about how he was put of work?

Re:Ok, here is where I object: (2, Insightful)

Knuckles (8964) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738235)

And while you're at it, do away with this "automobiles". My horse carriage business does badly

Re:Ok, here is where I object: (1)

Bold Marauder (673130) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738236)

First off, your original strawman was when MS does something which changes the competitive landscape, people say it's bad; but when the OSS movement does it, people say it's good. I proceeded to explain the difference.

To answer your inflammatory question; the person who got laid off doesn't give a shit about anything other than how he's going to get by (and rightly so); but the developer who could have been hired by IBM or Novell to fix/support the code might care wether the program is OSS or wether it's hidden behind MS's patent wall!

Re:Ok, here is where I object: (1)

Pfhreakaz0id (82141) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738020)

OK, I LIKE open source technology. I work in java everyday (not precisely open source, but we use many O.S. projects from Apache, et al). However, I would say this, in the midwest U.S., from a business perspective, if you have an opening for a PHP dude, you are going to get a trickling of resumes, but an ASP/ASP.net dude, you're gonna get a boatful. Now, seperating the wheat from the chaff is kinda tough. But, It's a consideration. Shallow labor pool == expensive labor pool.

The company I used to work at had a tough time getting decent resumes from Java/J2EE people to fill the postion I was leaving.

I'm just saying, it's a real cosideration. Remember, labor costs are the biggie. All those benefits. That said, I think Open Source is gaining ground on the development side.

Re:Ok, here is where I object: (5, Insightful)

robertjw (728654) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738142)

Shallow labor pool == expensive labor pool

Sure, but I can pay more for a developer when I'm saving money in license fees.

Re:Ok, here is where I object: (4, Insightful)

ron_ivi (607351) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738249)

if you have an opening for a PHP dude, you are going to get a trickling of resumes,

Quantity of resumes shouldn't be your top concern.

One manager I know looks for BOTH Python _AND_ C# skills of his developers because he says this pre-qualifies candidates for people with enough of an interest in computer science to understand recent technologies.

but an ASP/ASP.net dude, you're gonna get a boatful.

Just because I can find lots of people with McDonalds experience, doesn't mean my restaraunt should specialize in fries and burgers.

Re:Ok, here is where I object: (4, Informative)

robertjw (728654) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738054)

So...I have to pay for features that I can get from the competitor for free, I have to pay (my employees) to insure that I am paying what I need to (for a product wich offers comparable services as the competitor) and I get to continually be pressed to upgrade and give them more money in licensing fees.

Exactly. This is my biggest complaint against proprietary/commercial software, and the largest benefit of Open Source. As a sys admin I spend more time trying to figure out how many licenses we have, what is a legal use of a license, when we should upgrade, why we should upgrade, etc... Maintenance of the licenses cost us more than the license purchase itself.

On top of that, old versions are usually unavailable for purchase after the new version is released, so we can't just purchase one license of a perfectly useful product for a new employee, we have to upgrade 30 people.

For me, PHP vs ASP would be an obvious decision just because of the licensing. With PHP don't have to maintain the licenses. When I need to add a new server I wouldn't have to pay for an upgrade on the 10 existing servers.

Re:Ok, here is where I object: (5, Informative)

Bedouin X (254404) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738161)

I understand licensing issues but they just aren't as big a deal in ASP.NET as these posts (and the article) are making it out. To use ASP.NET you need a license for the server and that's it. Most add-on components are the same. There is also so much ASP.NET sample code out there that there isn't a lot that you can't figure out for free using the same methods that you would use for PHP code.

Licensing issues get a little more complex when dealing with database servers and the like, but using Oracle isn't going to change that and it's not like you can't use MySQL with ASP.NET.

I'm all for the advantages of OSS and PHP does have advantages, but let's not cloud the issue unnecessarily.

Re:Ok, here is where I object: (3, Insightful)

robertjw (728654) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738226)

understand licensing issues but they just aren't as big a deal in ASP.NET as these posts (and the article) are making it out.

That's all a matter of perspective I suppose. So I only need one license per server for ASP.NET and one license per server for any add-on components I want to use. So in a year I want to add another server, I have to upgrade both to get the same version of ASP.NET. A few months after I want to upgrade a add-on component, I have to upgrade ASP.NET and any other add-on compnents I have licenses for.

Licensing may not seem like a big deal, but it can quickly spiral out of control. Personally I have grown to HATE license agreements and will not purchase a product if an OSS is available.

Where's the Beef! (1)

LifesABeach (234436) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738159)

i'm reading this article, and it says php is this, and asp is that. but no anchors to 'facts'. so i ask, "where are the bench marks?"

trash talk comes and goes with the tide, but i can take a bench mark test, apply it my machine, run it, and make my own conclusions.

it looks like this author has never had to face the phrase, "ya? prove it". it also looks like this author may have been 'mugged' by some plastic lawyer. i'd love to see a toe to toe bench mark of 'Everything' php, and asp; Please.

It's Visual Studio, not the languages! (5, Insightful)

Cavio (217880) | more than 9 years ago | (#9737813)

As a former PHP hacker now forced by the corporate world to program in ASP.NET, the article is forgetting the number one advantage ASP has over PHP. A killer IDE.

I really dislike ASP and Visual Studio, but PHBs tend to like pointly clicky interfaces. It makes them feel like if they have to fire the whole development staff, they can take over coding; after all, it is just a GUI.

Visual Studio is Microsoft's real killer app. That is what Monkey Boy was dancing around screaming developers about. Most developers are mediocre, and if you give them a handholding tool that keeps them from doing anything too stupid (or too great), they will love you for giving them some job security.

Alright PHP guys, can you give us that? Can you save us from having to think for ourselves? I may have filled my last remaining unallocated brain cells reading the man page for gcc.

Re:It's Visual Studio, not the languages! (5, Insightful)

jcrash (516507) | more than 9 years ago | (#9737867)

Yes, this is where Microsoft scores time and time again.

I code ASP (always) and ASP.NET (sometimes) in textpad - but the PHB's love the VS interface and the weaker developers have no idea how to code without it.

Similarly, SQL Server has grown to where it is not because it performs better, but because developers and DBA's have a built-in interface in Enterprise Manager and i-SQL (now query analyzer). Oracle never understood the need to release a complete product. Managing an Oracle database - shoot even coding in one - is like night and day compared to SQL Server.

Re:It's Visual Studio, not the languages! (2, Insightful)

iamdrscience (541136) | more than 9 years ago | (#9737872)

I'd say Zend Studio fits that position pretty well. Yes, you have to pay for it ($250), but you have to pay for Visual Studio as well.

Re:It's Visual Studio, not the languages! (5, Informative)

angst7 (62954) | more than 9 years ago | (#9737875)

I've been using Zend Studio [zend.com] for about a year and a half now, and it's a great IDE for doing PHP stuff. It has code completetion, a nice debugger, good integrated documentation, and a host of other nice features. I run it on both my Windows and Linux boxen, and I absolutely love it.

It looks good (1)

Orion Blastar (457579) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738069)

I was hoping for an OSS alternative to Visual Studio so I don't have to shell out the money.

Re:It looks good (4, Insightful)

mobiGeek (201274) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738175)

I was hoping for an OSS alternative to Visual Studio so I don't have to shell out the money.
Then get busy; the OSS-train awaits your boarding! ;-)

Are you saying that you are willing to dish out $$ for an MS product, but not for some other company's product?

Re:It looks good (1)

MadChicken (36468) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738188)

Ding! Wish granted.

I switched to SharpDevelop [icsharpcode.net] a month or so back... once you get the hang of it, it can do much of the VS.NET editing and compilations stuff. Oh and you'll need the SDK installed so you can get at the debugger DBGCLR.exe. Check out this [dotnetjunkies.com] great article on how to do it.

One thing I really miss is a viable pointy-clicky WDSL tool.

Re:It's Visual Studio, not the languages! (4, Insightful)

bloggins02 (468782) | more than 9 years ago | (#9737898)

I agree with you that Visual Studio is a killer app, but you seem to think that it somehow "keeps you from doing anything too stupid (or great)." The last time I check, Visual Studio doesn't "keep you" from doing anything.

Especially in VS.NET, almost everything is in a human readable (editable!) source file or XML document, they warn you not to change stuff, but that's just a CYA for tech support. People can, and do, change VS generated code all the time, and since they've made it pretty easy to do, it works almost all of the time.

The open source world needs to realize that MS has them absolutely beat in the form of developer tools. Just because I know how to code in x86 assembly and twiddle bits to make arcance hardware work (been there, done that), doesn't mean I don't REALLY enjoy intellisense and auto-generated XML documentation.

"Real" programmers like good developer tools, too. That's one reason why I like Mono. I get to code in VS/SharpDevelop and copy the dlls over to Linux to run it. I will continue to do so until someone makes an IDE on Linux that compares to Visual Studio (and no, Eclipse is not that IDE, especially for non-Java projects). Who knows, maybe I'll even develop it, if I can find the time that is :)

Re:It's Visual Studio, not the languages! (1, Interesting)

PhrostyMcByte (589271) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738035)

I will continue to do so until someone makes an IDE on Linux that compares to Visual Studio (and no, Eclipse is not that IDE, especially for non-Java projects). Who knows, maybe I'll even develop it, if I can find the time that is :)

Like MonoDevelop [monodevelop.com]? It is based off SharpDevelop.

Re:It's Visual Studio, not the languages! (1)

Elwood P Dowd (16933) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738245)

I will continue to do so until someone makes an IDE on Linux that compares to Visual Studio (and no, Eclipse is not that IDE, especially for non-Java projects).

Well, I agree with you completely about non-Java projects. However, I promise you that the C#/VS.NET developers feel heat from Java/Eclipse. They feel that it compares well. Err, actually I haven't asked in a while, but about a year ago they seemed to feel that Eclipse was improving in leaps and bounds and starting to kick their asses. I think they're getting embarrassed about the lack of Edit & Continue.

(And this is completely unrelated to how the managers & marketting & strategy people might feel. They may feel zero heat. Iduno. But the developers want to be making the best possible product, so market share doesn't make them rest easy.)

Re:It's Visual Studio, not the languages! (2, Insightful)

Jetifi (188285) | more than 9 years ago | (#9737944)

If you want to build an IDE for PHP, you could do worse than build something on top of Eclipse [eclipse.org]. It's not just a Java tool, it's been done for Python [ibm.com], and the plugin architecture is pretty sweet.

Re:It's Visual Studio, not the languages! (4, Insightful)

phazethru (785978) | more than 9 years ago | (#9737992)

Beyond the IDE is also the documentation. I've been a PHP programmer for a while now becuase it was free and easy enough to use. But when first starting out, I was floored by how good the manual on the PHP site is. User comments, example code, etc. And it's not only that these existed, but that it was all in one place and easy to find.

I have written personal sites, shopping carts, and some basic management software, and I have never needed to go beyond that manual for help.

I'm willing to learn ASP in my free time (can never hurt to have things on the resume) but is there a comparable site? Or will I have to go back to swimming through the various how-to's on computer sites?

Re:It's Visual Studio, not the languages! (1)

DorkRawk (719109) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738060)

I have been deloping in PHP for a few years and I LOVE it. For my job this summer I may have to do some ASP stuff, so I was doing some research and looking for a site like php.net but theres just nothing like that out there for ASP (at least nothing I've found yet).

Re:It's Visual Studio, not the languages! (2, Informative)

Malc (1751) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738080)

MSDN. Well, if you don't have access the CD/DVD that comes out twice a year then there's always Microsoft's website.

For community support, the Usenet is very good. Microsoft have a lot of groups on their servers (msnews.microsoft.com, or something like that), or you can use groups.google.com (microsoft.public.x.x.x), but that's a vastly inferior interface.

Re:It's Visual Studio, not the languages! (1)

Nurgled (63197) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738055)

Judging by ActiveState's Visual Perl [activestate.com] (and the related products for Python and XSLT), Visual Studio.NET allows you to plug in support for new languages.

It might be worth investigating how hard it would be to adapt the ASP.NET stuff into a PHP IDE which works identically to ASP.NET's, or if necessary re-implement parts of it so that PHP has a comparable Visual Studio interface.

I don't use Visual Studio or ASP.NET, so I've no idea what the IDE is like, but I assume it can't be that special since, after all, we're just talking about website templates and backend code here, right?

Re:It's Visual Studio .. PHP Editor Galores! (5, Informative)

Phiu-x (513322) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738114)

Need to find a good PHP Editor ?


All of them (commercial,free,OSS) reviewed and classified: http://www.php-editors.com/ [php-editors.com]

My personnal (and free) favorite : PHP EDIT: http://www.waterproof.fr/ [waterproof.fr]

Need a PHP Debugger? DBG can do remote debugging and it can be integrated with the PHP Edit IDE, which is very nice : http://dd.cron.ru/dbg/ [dd.cron.ru]

Now, who need Visual Studio? Almost every (php) editors now has code insight, integrated help, code completion, skins and whatnot. Hell, I sometimes go back to Notepad for quick fixes because its faster to fire up. But if you said PHP need an IDE, I think that you have not looked around very much.

Now people start your eng-uh editors and go code some PHP!

Story Time (0, Offtopic)

mfh (56) | more than 9 years ago | (#9737846)

I worked as the web admin to my student association when I was in college, and a job opening came up to redesign the programmers site, bringing online a bunch of new tools for students of that department. This was basically a summer job, and they had interviews where myself and four other students made it through the selection process to the final interview. The college is very Microsoft-centric, and therefore I should have known better than to pitch PHP & MySQL to them, but I could not pitch anything else because I am a firm believer in the quality of PHP.

I didn't get the job because, as I found out later, they wanted ASP.

Did they ever get screwed. The guy who they hired was a Korean exchange student, who I happen to think was a great choice for the job, but the problems started cropping up with the ASP code. It was buggy as hell. The system took all summer to code out the object oriented code, and it was never opened because it was never quite good enough.

In my opinion, this was not the fault of the guy they hired at all, it's just that ASP takes a lot more time to get together than PHP. You can "know what you're doing" all you want, but when your boss wants you to make changes to core behaviours, there is nothing faster or more efficient than PHP for handling anything web related. It's just easier to whip together any site with any behaviour and get it working and stable.

Now if they had hired me, they would have had a great PHP & MySQL system likely ready in about four weeks for what they were looking for. They paid this other guy at an hourly wage for the summer and the whole school year and they didn't get their site. What they got were a lot of modules and classes that could do different things, but they all were bug-ridden.

Now I think that because PHP is open source, it's much easier to find ready-made source code on the net, without having to pay anything. You obviously have to be selective, yet there are more freely available sources for ideas, as well.

I would recommend to anyone who wants to get ahead with PHP to read O'reilly's PHP Cookbook [oreilly.com].

Re:Story Time (4, Insightful)

Saeed al-Sahaf (665390) | more than 9 years ago | (#9737893)

The guy who they hired was a Korean exchange student, who I happen to think was a great choice for the job...

Than why do you bring it up?

Re:Story Time (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9737928)

The college is very Microsoft-centric, and therefore I should have known better than to pitch PHP & MySQL to them, but I could not pitch anything else because I am a firm believer in the quality of PHP.

Inflexibility is yet another trait that linux users need to come to grips with. As it says here [linuxmyths.org]:
One of the common problems associated with the linux developer community is its' inherent inflexibility. While holding on to paradigms and methodologies that pre-date the modern computing interface isn't limited to Linux, Linux developers seem particularly prone to being unable to think outside of the box and consider newer means of problem solving.

Go away Microserf FUDster (1)

FreeUser (11483) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738029)

Inflexibility is yet another trait that linux users need to come to grips with. As it says here:

[MS FUD snipped]


Quoting Microsoft-sponsored (or not) FUD websites as authoritative on Linux development is hardly insightful, or indicative of any intellectual honesty at any level. Quite the reverse.

Indeed, "what a load of absolute nonsense" you have cited there. Linux programmers are at least as capable of "thinking outside of the box" as Microsoft developers-developers-developers-developers. Even considering Linux (or FreeBSD, or even Mac OS X) requires some degree of thinking outside of the Wintel box from day one. Enlightenment, Blender, Gentoo's packaging system (designing a distro that builds itself from source code, from scratch, to custom specs, on demand is about as far outside of the traditional "binary" box as it gets), etc. are all examples of folks thinking much further outside of the box than any of their Microsoft developer-developer-developer-developer counterparts generally do.

Re:Story Time (1)

levell (538346) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738100)

The link in the parent opens up an infinite number of obscene pictures requiring you to kill the browser.

Re:Story Time (4, Insightful)

azaris (699901) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738034)

I worked as the web admin to my student association when I was in college, and a job opening came up to redesign the programmers site, bringing online a bunch of new tools for students of that department. This was basically a summer job, and they had interviews where myself and four other students made it through the selection process to the final interview.

[...]

Did they ever get screwed. The guy who they hired was a Korean exchange student, who I happen to think was a great choice for the job, but the problems started cropping up with the ASP code. It was buggy as hell. The system took all summer to code out the object oriented code, and it was never opened because it was never quite good enough.

[...]

In my opinion, this was not the fault of the guy they hired at all, it's just that ASP takes a lot more time to get together than PHP. You can "know what you're doing" all you want, but when your boss wants you to make changes to core behaviours, there is nothing faster or more efficient than PHP for handling anything web related. It's just easier to whip together any site with any behaviour and get it working and stable.

Why isn't there a "-1, Jumping to conclusions" moderation option on Slashdot? Let's reiterate. This was a student body, hiring a student for the summer to hack some website, alone I might add. And the fact that it all went miserably wrong is supposed to imply that the Microsoft ASP platform is fundamentally flawed and everything would have magically worked with PHP?

Re:Story Time (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9738137)

This was a student body, hiring a student for the summer to hack some website, alone I might add. And the fact that it all went miserably wrong is supposed to imply that the Microsoft ASP platform is fundamentally flawed and everything would have magically worked with PHP?

HERITIC! You must burn!

Re:Story Time (4, Insightful)

Malc (1751) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738136)

To counter this, we have one ASP programmer in our company. He's been knocking out fairly complex database-driven web sites in ASP for us for several years. He's fast, his work is reliable and there are no complaints. What's your point?

It sounds to me like they made a poor hiring choice, not a poor choice of technology. If you'd given them a PHP+MySQL solution, it might have worked well by itself, but how would it have fit in to the overall picture? How much extra would it have cost them in maintenance and training for their IT department supporting a new or different/additional platform?

Re:Story Time (1)

PhrostyMcByte (589271) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738156)

Are you talking about ASP, or ASP.NET? The two are very different. ASP is a raped VBized PHP that needs to die, but ASP.NET blows PHP out of the water.

With ASP.NET you can use C# which isn't hackish like PHP (4, at least, I do realize there were some changes in 5). You have code-behind which organizes everything nicely and is great for keeping designers from stepping on developers toes. All the basics are encapsulated in controls where handling a click is as easy as assigning a method to the Click event. There is built-in authentication. You also get the backing of the entire .NET framework. Plus, ASP.NET is *fast*. Without caching, it is moderately faster than PHP. With proper use of caching, it smokes PHP.

Update? (4, Interesting)

Chuck Bucket (142633) | more than 9 years ago | (#9737849)

This makes complete sense, looking at how PHP has taken so much of the bloat out of server side scripts compared to ASPs megahousal approach. Add in the fact that PHP is free/open and continuously developed, it could be a no brainer; if the market(ing?) allows for it!

How does one update from PHP4.x to PHP5.0? I'm running Drupal/Squirrelmail and the like at home, and want to see the diffs between the two, as well as understanding how to update them.

PCB$#

Sorry no (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9737851)

I use php all the time, but php is more like the old asp than .Net. .Net is much richer in exeception handing and allows me to use any language I want. Php is great but not a stab at the heart of .Net. They have nothing like VStudio.

Re:Sorry no (1)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738182)

I disagree. People seem to have forgotten that the goal is to serve up some information, usually from a database.

An IDE might be handy in some cases, but in many cases, because php can do the job without code bloat, the IDE will actually get in the way.

Here's an easier way to beat code bloat and simplfy your life:

  1. Use php to grab the data and dump it into an array of arrays.
  2. Use a javascript include to format the data on the clients' machine, using the clients' cpu cycles. (for example, a table with all text clickable)
  3. Use a css include for presentation style.
The result is pretty close tho the holy grail - independence of data and presentation. Also much easier to code and debug. Your php files become so small that there's no point in using an IDE.

You can dump 1000 records into an array, and have a javascript include that lets them be displayed on the client side 25 rows per time, without having to do another fetch from the server to see the next/previous page, in the same time you would format 25 rows with all the hyperlinks.

Re:Sorry no (2, Informative)

mrtroy (640746) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738196)


I use php all the time, but php is more like the old asp than .Net. .Net is much richer in exeception handing and allows me to use any language I want. Php is great but not a stab at the heart of .Net. They have nothing like VStudio.

Quote from article:

PHP 5's major new achievements come in the area of its exception handling and a new object that introduces features that bring true OOP to PHP

And my opinion added on: You do not need to use something like VStudio for anything smaller than enterprise sized ASP.net or PHP development. Textpad is more than adequate. I really dont see what u will gain by using some huge IDE for personal development.



am I the only one who thinks that (1, Insightful)

xutopia (469129) | more than 9 years ago | (#9737878)

everyone wants a piece of Microsoft? Seems like anyone who's somebody wants to grab a piece of Microsoft's monopoly even if it means giving it away to people for free.

MS vendor lock-in bad, Oracle lock-in good (3, Insightful)

MaxQuordlepleen (236397) | more than 9 years ago | (#9737930)

From the article:

But, as Tom Kyte points out in his latest book, Effective Oracle by Design (Oracle Press), database dependence should be your real goal because you maximize your investment in that technology. If you make generic access to Oracle, whether through ODBC or Perl's DBI library, you'll miss out on features other databases don't have. What's more, optimizing queries is different in each database.

I've heard this same song from a few developers who work at Oracle shops - and I could not disagree more! Database independence in your code should absolutely be a goal! We can encapsulate our database-specific features into stored procedures or functions without having to pollute our application code with them.

Re:MS vendor lock-in bad, Oracle lock-in good (1)

Dana P'Simer (530866) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738024)

It all really depends on your application. Database independence should only be a goal if you may want to deploy on another database. If, however, you are constructing an applications that will only be used internally and your corp has already made a huge investment in one database or another then you should use the db to it's fullest capability.

Re:MS vendor lock-in bad, Oracle lock-in good (1)

stratjakt (596332) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738070)

The two aren't mutually exclusive. You should always think about DB and platform independence as much as you can.

So what if your company made a huge investment in Oracle. What if Oracle winds up chapter 11 in six months, what if the next great Enron scam is happening at Oracle now?

The very nature of an RDBMS is such that you shouldn't have to jump through any application-level hoops to use it to its "fullest capacity". I expect to issue SQL statements and that's it. To me, the measure of a DB is how well it does what it does - store and retrieve data, without fucking it all up.

As the grandparent said, you can encapsulate any specific stuff in stored procedures or custom functions. But you shouldn't be relying on it.

Re:MS vendor lock-in bad, Oracle lock-in good (1)

Saeed al-Sahaf (665390) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738107)

I've heard this same song from a few developers who work at Oracle shops - and I could not disagree more! Database independence in your code should absolutely be a goal!

This assumes that you are writing applications independent of the brand of database (or any other associated application), it's all part and parcel with blindly buying into OOP 100%. But, what if you are not writing for any other database, and your app will never be used with any other database? Than, there is not need for an abstraction layer which brings with it overhead, and has no real purpose within the context of your database-specific application.

I hear this abstraction layer line of thought quite often, yet in many applications, it simply does not make sense. If you are building for Oracle and only Oracle, it makes sense to use hooks that specifically take advantage of Oracle. Sometimes making abstraction the Holy Grail just does not make sense.

Besides, down the road, if you decide that you really didn't want to use Oracle, maybe Steve Balmer moves on to your company, well, that just means some nice Indian programmers have work!

After reading the FA ... (5, Interesting)

cablepokerface (718716) | more than 9 years ago | (#9737938)

... I had to conclude the writer barely knows what he is talking about. I am not flaming him, but someone who mentions only the ODBC drivers for ASP.NET and has never even heard about a Managed Provider, additionally puts this in a summary table:
Speed:
PHP4: strong PHP5: strong ASP.NET: weak
Efficiency:
PHP4: strong PHP5: strong ASP.NET: weak
has some serious reading to do ...

Re:After reading the FA ... (5, Insightful)

stratjakt (596332) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738026)

Well, seeing as how this "interesting article", as the submitter calls it, is hosted on Oracle's site, you'd think the cynics here at slashdot would instantly recognize it as the typical marketing horseshit you'd find on any corporate page.

Yeah, according to Oracle, Oracle+PHP5 (and oracle specific application development) is the bomb-diggity, ASP.Net and SQL Server are teh suck. I'm sure MSFT would tell you the opposite.

This "article" has as much credibility as the MS-published Windows v. Linux TCO studies.

But - of course - marketing horseshit is Gospel here at slashdot, just so long as it says MS sucks.

Exactly (1)

Burb (620144) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738079)

No one should be using ODBC to access Oracle with .NET. There's a "managed code" provider now, and there's an OleDb wrapper too. And, if memory serves, a choice between Microsoft's provider and Oracle's. I've not had an issues with the MS one, but your mileage may vary.

Re:After reading the FA ... (2, Insightful)

iwhittle (794529) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738134)

I could not agree more, this guy basically goes out of his way to mention the fact that ASP.NET has a heavier object model and will thus use more memory without addressing at all the point of this model.

ASP.NET is a very different way of programming a web application that has significant advantages over many of the other platforms that exist. A ton of the work and overhead that goes into writing validation functions and other "plumbing" code in other web application frameworks is already done in ASP.NET. Also, the fact that form controls are created by objects means that you can easily create standardized controls that inherit from the built in WebForm objects and are customized for your application. Basically with ASP.NET it becomes much easier to encapsulate and reuse the code that you write for web presentation, which is certainly a good thing.

Having not worked much in PHP, I cannot say anything bad about it and have heard very good things about working in it. That being said, it just seems like criticizing ASP.NET for being slow due to its heavier object model is missing the whole point.

Of course I am not that surprised since is article is written by Oracle, and they spend significant time in it going on about how DB Vender Lock-in is a good thing. I think that shows where this authors motivations lie.

Microsoft's default .NET programming language (5, Insightful)

dalleboy (539331) | more than 9 years ago | (#9737954)

The article states that Visual Basic .NET is Microsoft's default .NET programming language. I've always thought it was C#, because VB.NET lacks some of the features in C#.

Re:Microsoft's default .NET programming language (1)

Renesis (646465) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738150)

And vice-versa. They both have advantages and disadvantages.

Having spent 10 years writing C++ code I still prefer VB.NET over C#.NET as it's quicker to code in.

While PHP is nice... (2, Insightful)

Mr.Fork (633378) | more than 9 years ago | (#9737961)

I'll stick to my vanilla ASP coffee thanks. It's the old betamax/vhs story. Yes, PHP is better. Yes, it's free and easy to code. But most businesses tend to stick with micro$oft not because they want to, but because .net is designed to work with mssql and ie a lot better. . I want my betamax back... :)

Re:While PHP is nice... (1)

httpdotcom (749192) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738140)

> But most businesses tend to stick with micro$oft not because they want to, but because .net is designed to work with mssql and ie a lot better.

This is so flawed as to be laughable.
What does the browser have to do with the coding? And more to the point, why should it? Cross-browser compatibility is easy and lack-there-of is one of the reasons crappy code continues to flood the internet in our little PHB-MS world.

And as to working with MS-SQL, FreeTDS (sybase library extensions) and PHP can do anything that ASP can do with MS-SQL. And that solution is cross-platform as well.

Databases, Platforms, my opinions on using ASP.Net (3, Interesting)

Ollierose (202763) | more than 9 years ago | (#9737965)

I liked the way the article talked about ODBC being a downside, then showed sample code which used ADO.Net with the native OracleClient instead.

Apart from that, the main differences between ASP.Net and PHP5 appear to be platform related, rather than anything to do with the respective languages (or processors, if you prefer).

Don't forget some of us actually like a little bondage from the toolkit, so we can maintain the code afterwards. Its nice to have all the page manipulation code in page_load() where you can happily mangle everything using syntax similar to the XML DOM, rather than having chunks of code all over the place to insert the various dynamic elements.

Performance Claims (5, Insightful)

DJ-Dodger (169589) | more than 9 years ago | (#9737976)

Why do people think they can write these sort of articles and make performance claims in them without any sort of supporting evidence? Some quick numbers? A link to a study? Anything?

Re:Performance Claims (2, Interesting)

Chester K (145560) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738239)

and make performance claims in them without any sort of supporting evidence?

I thought it was particularly laughable that they just do some handwaving and declare ASP.NET slower than PHP because "there is a lot more code to run through to execute the same ASP page than ... an equivalent PHP page".

It's total bullshit.

ASP.NET JITs to native code. The extra baggage of the extent of the ASP.NET Framework has zero performance penalty after the initial compilation stage. PHP is interpreted, every request unless you buy their commercial solution, which gives PHP the "$$" they lovingly placed under "Platform Price" for ASP.NET.

They also take the easy potshots at IIS as a security weakness (IIS6, a rewrite of IIS which has been out and in production for well over a year, has zero security vulnerabilities); and they just poo-poo the fact that Mono/Apache runs ASP.NET just as well, if not better, than Windows/IIS.

PHP vs. ASP (5, Insightful)

iamdrscience (541136) | more than 9 years ago | (#9737978)

For me, the choice is clear. You can compare the relatively minor pros and cons of PHP and ASP for days, but really they're both very similarly capable and you'd do about as well with one as with the other. The big difference I see is that PHP is cross platform and ASP is not. To me, that makes PHP the "winner", hands down. It makes it so that you can change platforms with your application later on and if you're writing code for other people to run then it means more people will have the opportunity to use it (whether this is an open source project or a commercial project you're doing).

ASP runs on Windows and really only runs well with IIS. PHP runs on pretty much any platform you would ever want to run it on (and plenty of platforms you wouldn't) and works just as well with any webserver I've ever considered using.

So while there may be small areas where ASP excels or where PHP is deficient, I think that those points are largely insignificant when you realize the platform limitations of ASP. Oddly enough though, I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone cite this as an advantage of PHP, whereas I come across an article comparing esoteric differences every few weeks.

Re:PHP vs. ASP (2, Insightful)

Ollierose (202763) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738037)

Where would you put Mono or Rotor (the BSD one?) in your global pool of cross-platform solutions? Theoretically (because I've not found anyone willing to actually try it, the solutions offered are all on IIS 6) you could offer a large hosting system run on apache + mono + mySQL in the same way you would now offer apache + php + mySQL solutions.

Granted, its not the officially supported path, but MS wouldn't support anything other than IIS anyway.

Re:PHP vs. ASP (1)

PhrostyMcByte (589271) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738199)

The topic here is ASP.NET, not ASP. And ASP.NET does run on *nix (very well, too) thanks to Mono [mono-project.com]. There are a lot of large areas where ASP.NET excels over PHP too.

FUD? (5, Insightful)

Banshee99 (416307) | more than 9 years ago | (#9737985)

Looks like this article is full of it. Slow .NET code? ASP.NET can be compiled into DLLs, and at my old job we upgraded many of our ASP and PHP projects to .NET with a large speed increase. Only works on IIS? Try out the mono project.

Also seems like everyone is complaining about ASP. ASP and ASP.NET are two completely different beasts. ASP was buggy and a pain in the rear to work with. ASP.NET, however, was amazingly simple to use with an amazing debugger (VS.NET). Please keep on the subject and leave out ASP.

Object Oriented Scripting?! (4, Interesting)

Desult (592617) | more than 9 years ago | (#9737986)

I do C# development, for ASP.NET, where I work. I do php development (hacking phpbb), for my personal website.

For large scale projects (e.g. a messageboard), I would greatly prefer to use C# over ASP.NET... I strongly dislike IIS, and I suppose that's a stumbling block, but on the other hand, C# is a strongly typed, compilable language. I'm not clear on how all the benefits of scripting (faster output from looser coding) apply to large scale projects, or projects where things like OOP and Exception handling are useful.

OOP and Exceptions rely on, you know, strong, well concieved design. If you're going to take the time to design your large project, why the hell would you throw away the benefits of strong types and compile time debugging (incredibly useful in a large and/or shared project), not to mention things like unit testing and automatic documentation (things C# has).

The code example in the article makes little sense to me. For one, they use VB... which looks ugly no matter how you slice it. C# would have been more directly comparable, and it should be available in MSDN... but regardless, the code looks almost identical. Is the point that there really is little difference, or that PHP is better? In both languages, it seems you could abstract away the Oracleness of the behavior (negative on both fronts), and you'd be at square one regardless.

Eh, I don't see any real useful comparison in this article. Yes, it sucks that ASP.NET only works with IIS. I'll be happy to run mono when the opportunity presents itself. But this article was pretty useless.

Perl at Heart (-1, Offtopic)

Walrus99 (543380) | more than 9 years ago | (#9737995)

I still prefer Perl for those pages that require some sort of CGI. Its really a matter of do you want the code in the web page or the web page in the code. While Perl can be difficult to read for the uninitiated, its easier to follow the logic and flow of the code when the HTML is separate.

As #2 would say, six of one half a dozen of the other.

Visual Studio .Net (2, Insightful)

SpiffyMarc (590301) | more than 9 years ago | (#9737999)

I'm sorry, but ASP brings Visual Studio .Net with it to the party, and, well, it always manages to get in my pants.

Until any of these other solutions can offer me an IDE as advanced as Visual Studio .Net, instead of being one version behind attempting to copy it and feeling "not quite right" in their attempts, I'll stick with my .Net-based solutions.

ASP.NET inaccuracies (5, Informative)

Burb (620144) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738001)

A few comments from an ASP.NET user:

The article implies that CLR code is interpreted. All .NET runs compiled code, either JIT or AOT compiled. And there's an unsubstantiated remark about efficiency and "Long code paths". That looks like FUD to me, and without something substantial it seems suspicious.

Evidence? (3, Insightful)

metasyntactic (322999) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738019)

I found the article quite interesting, but lacking in supporting evidence for many claims. Specifically, he states that on both speed and efficiency (not quite sure the difference, but I'm guessing that he's referring to memory usage for the latter) ASP.NET is weak. I'd be interested to see comparisons showing the difference between equivalent sites written with PHP5 and ASP.NET to see the difference.

Also, he mentions (a few times) about IIS insecurities (at posts a link to bugtraq), however I'm unable to check since the site seems to be crawling. How does PHP5+Apache's security record compare to ASP.NET+IIS6?

-- Cyrus (http://blogs.msdn.com/cyrusn [msdn.com])

PHP drawback? (4, Insightful)

The_Real_Nire (786847) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738028)

Another weakness is that PHP's function names are case insensitive. Some programmers might find this feature annoying, though this isn't a serious drawback.

How is this a drawback at all?
In my opinion, it prevents programmers from perhaps accidentally naming their own functions the same as a built-in, which is a good thing since there are so many, its useful to know as many as possible. However "annoying" this maybe to some people, its actually a good idea.

PHP is "ServerSide" (1)

bogaboga (793279) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738040)

PHP is "Server-Side". Can it be forked into some sort of "Client-Side" PHP? Something similar to MS-Visual Basic? Later on drag 'n' drop for widgets and addition of business logic, can be implemented to create web based front-ends to popular database back-ends. Just a question.

Re:PHP is "ServerSide" (1)

httpdotcom (749192) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738190)

VB was not part of the argument. This was an ASP vs PHP troll.

However, there currently exists a PHP compiler (from Zend with a hefty price tag) that can create stand-alone, compiled PHP applications/executables.

lies lies and more untruths (5, Interesting)

pc-0x90 (547757) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738048)

I do a substantial amount of ASP.Net coding and they seemed to just give a weak gloss over the actual technology they were comparing here. First, IIS & Win32 are *not* the only places where you can run ASP.Net. The mono project is getting better and better fairly quickly. This is mentioned briefly in their "security" section.. which is also a load of crap. Price: PHP has a habit of becoming very perl-esque over time because of the language. Maybe 5 changes this, but I doubt it's enforced. So an IDE that's going to clean your code vs. cost in man-hours spent debugging some "super efficient php code" (read: "looks like perl") bleh.. I'll take the IDE The database code samples *Don't do the same thing* .. but they DO show the people who wrote the article don't know ASP.Net, because they're using the old and insecure form of database connections as opposed to parameterized queries. Nice to know that both sides of the fence are as equally capable of FUD.

Re:lies lies and more untruths (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9738210)

Ladies and gentlemen, behold another example of why Microsoft has a foothold in the developer market.

So an IDE that's going to clean your code

Read: an IDE that writes your code for you so you don't have to learn "stuff that looks like perl". I don't know about the rest of you here, but I am sick of these fucktard assholes who claim to be programmers that rely on microsoft auto-complete and help files to get any work done. Noone ever takes the time to learn how to program anymore (this is also the reason why we have so many insecure apps).

To the parent poster: get a fucking clue. I bet you can find a programming class at your local community college. Take it and shut the fuck up.

PHP 5.0 (2, Insightful)

Orion Blastar (457579) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738091)

it would be great if they integrated with the Mono project and allowed the use of ASP.NET type tags to actually run almost the same code as ASP.NET?

Imagine PHP based C#, VB.NET, etc.

Incomplete review. (3, Insightful)

miguel (7116) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738118)


The review states that ASP.NET only works on
Windows, which is incorrect. Mono brings ASP.NET
to Linux, MacOS, BSD, HP-UX, Solaris and many more.

Mono's ASP.NET can be hosted in Apache (through the
mod_mono module) or as a standalone server (xsp).

The platform price is also wrong (by extension),
Mono's ASP.NET runs on pretty much anything.

The source code to Mono's ASP.NET is also available.

And I have to say, am puzzled by the "Speed"
column. If ASP.NET has something going for it
in terms of dynamic pages is speed: they have
all kinds of tricks:

* page generation code is running at native speed.

* caching is provided at the control level,
page level, database connection level.

And of course, there is no evidence to back any
of the performance claims.

I love PHP as much as the next guy, but that review
was done by someone that did not understand ASP.NET.

The code they posted to compare PHP vs ASP.NET
talking to Oracle is uneven, as the rest of the
article: in one case it shows data being rendered
from the database, and even has a connection string.

The other example only shows a class that wraps
reading and writing, but does no actual job.

A bit deceiving.

Pros and Cons - Speed and Efficiency (4, Interesting)

Afty0r (263037) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738119)

The author is miles off when he talks about the speed and efficiency of asp.net - he simply says "because there is more code and it's OO, it will take longer to run, and that slows web pages down".

Well I would agree that on first execution of a page (the first time a page is loaded after a reboot or restart, or the document is changed) asp.net is slower than ASP or PHP - however on every SINGLE subsequent page execution asp.net is considerably faster in my experience. Programming intranets and deploying/testing them has proved it to me - when the latency across the network is tiny the difference is notable on all non-trivial pages to the HUMAN eye, and the test suite backs this up.

Of course, code execution speed depends to a large extent on the coder and his techniques, but a good coder will be able to achieve much more rapidly responding web applications with ASP.NET than he would with Classic ASP or PHP 3 or 4. I can't talk about PHP5 because I moved exclusively to ASP.NET some time ago due it's superb libraries, saleability (clients like to hear MS and buzzwords) and the fact it's truly OO - just a personal preference.

Cross platform development / deployment (1, Troll)

amichalo (132545) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738122)

What I love about PHP is that it is cross platform:
- The Designers can use it on their Macs
- The Developers can use it on their XP boxes
- The Servers can use it on their Linux boxes
(* yeah, I know any of these functions could be performed by any of the platforms but you get the jist.)

Where I work, PHP is used because we don't deploy Windows boxes as production servers anymore (actually just deployed the first Apple Xserve and it is a dream!) So ASP is O-U-T out of the running.

PHP w/ MS SQL (vs. ASP) (1)

sid crimson (46823) | more than 9 years ago | (#9738216)

Could someone offer some info on realworld experience using PHP to pull data from Microsoft SQL Server?

Thank you,
-sid
Load More Comments
Slashdot Account

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?

Don't worry, we never post anything without your permission.

Submission Text Formatting Tips

We support a small subset of HTML, namely these tags:

  • b
  • i
  • p
  • br
  • a
  • ol
  • ul
  • li
  • dl
  • dt
  • dd
  • em
  • strong
  • tt
  • blockquote
  • div
  • quote
  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>
Sign up for Slashdot Newsletters
Create a Slashdot Account

Loading...