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IBM Donates Java Database App. to Apache Foundation

michael posted more than 9 years ago | from the have-a-nice-steaming-cup dept.

IBM 261

the_pooh_experience writes "IBM has announced that it will open up Cloudscape by giving it to the Apache Software Foundation. Cloudscape, a small footprint Java database, is primarily used for small scale websites and point-of-sale systems. Its new, opensource name will be 'Derby.' Cloudscape (originally created by Informix, and purchased by IBM in 2001) has been valued by IBM at $85M."

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261 comments

Anybody used it? (3, Interesting)

btrapp (446268) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868169)

Can anyone comment on how it performs?

Re:Anybody used it? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868223)

No match for real databases like Oracle or DB2.

It's one of those components that gets installed alongside with the important stuff and then later on it's nice if someone bothers to remove it.

Re:Anybody used it? (1)

not_a_product_id (604278) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868266)

Obviously I haven't RTFA (this being /.) but I'm guessing they're not aiming at the Oracle/DB2 market. Plenty of times when you don't need anything that beefy.

Yawn. (2, Interesting)

SatanicPuppy (611928) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868417)

I can't count the number of times I've needed a silly ass database app to store a tiny amount of needed data on a site that has no other need for databases. These things are useful in their own right, because you don't want to HAVE to set up Oracle or DB2 when all you need is this.

Nice to see IBM giving to opensource, even if it is only a minor product.

Re:Yawn. (1)

Phil John (576633) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868529)

What about eclipse...they open sourced that too.

Re:Yawn. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868641)

Use sqlite: http://www.sqlite.org/. Maybe java beeing slow is a myth, but sqlite beeing fast is definitly not a myth.

eT

Re:Anybody used it? (2, Funny)

Brando_Calrisean (755640) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868563)

Just like my Honda Civic is no match for a Formula 1 Racecar, right?

Come on, this was modded 'Informative'?

Better than Slashdot. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868421)

In other news, Slashdot.org crashes more than Windoze. Anybody else been getting the ol' 503 error?

Re:Better than Slashdot. (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868554)

Didn't you hear, Slashdot is now running on Windows Advanced Server 2003 with a SQL Server cluster. Yay, IIS!

Re:Better than Slashdot. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868564)

yes, i often get such a error in the last weeks

Re:Anybody used it? (5, Informative)

mauryisland (130029) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868471)

I've been using Cloudscape 4.0 in a web environment for a couple of years now, with no database failures of any sort. Cloudscape has a good selection of utilities (bulk loader, CLI and GUI, etc.) It's picky about ANSI SQL, and it supports most of the SQL that I'm interested in, like nested queries, stored procedures, etc. I'm using it as an imbedded database (just presenting data, not writing anything while in production), so I can't speak to the speed in an OLTP environment, but for my purposes, I'm absolutely delighted with it.

CloudScape (3, Interesting)

TheToon (210229) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868173)

Good! This is quite a nifty little SQL engine with a lot of features. Will be exciting to follow the progress of Derby, could provide competition for mysql and postgresql.

Re:CloudScape (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868220)

Cloudscape (originally created by Informix, and purchased by IBM in 2001) has been valued by IBM at $85M.

Actually, Cloudscape was originally created by a
company called Cloudscape & the company was
bought over by Informix. Then Informix was bought
over by IBM.

You gave RTFA a whole new meaning! hehe (1)

urbieta (212354) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868450)

Yep, The article explains all of that, congratulations, you have proven to me that you do NOT RTFA!

so, please, RTFA! hehe

Database written in Java? (0, Troll)

tpgp (48001) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868175)

I don't want to be a Java troll or anything - but a Database written in Java?

Sounds sloooooooooooow to me.

Re:Database written in Java? (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868203)

I don't want to be a Java troll or anything

Well, I hate to be the one to break it to you...

Re:Database written in Java? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868237)

It's actually pretty fast!

Re:Database written in Java? (4, Insightful)

the quick brown fox (681969) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868274)

I'm pretty sure databases spend a lot more time I/O and network bound than CPU bound. Besides, Java is pretty fast these days.

On the other hand, it's still a (relative) memory hog.

Re:Database written in Java? (5, Informative)

Tassach (137772) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868443)

Java's reputation for slowness is based on a few factors, none of which is applicable here:
  1. The GUI, partiuarly AWT, is horribly slow. This is unavoidable because there's no good (fast) way to do platform-independent graphics. However, since a database engine has no GUI components, this won't be a factor.
  2. A lot of the perceived slowness of Java comes from the time it takes to load and initialize the JVM. This is a factor when launching a desktop app written in Java. However, since a db engine is a long-running (daemon) process, this is also not applicable in this case.
  3. Early JVMs, particuarly before JIT (just-in-time compilation) took off, were indeed slow. Modern JVMs with JIT, once loaded, run (non-gui) Java code at a speed comperable to compiled C++. This is just 8 year old FUD that needs to die.
  4. A database is almost never CPU bound. The very nature of databases causes them to be I/O bound -- I/O bandwidth (especially disk throughput) is almost always the limiting factor in database performance. Modern CPUs are so vastly over-powered for database work that even if it took twice as many cpu cycles to run the Java code as it would to run comperable C++ code, you'd still only be using a small fraction of the available CPU cycles. Excessive CPU consumption in a database is almost invaribly caused by user error -- poor schema design, missing indexes, poor SQL coding, etc.

Re:Database written in Java? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868606)

So the fact that a database is almost never CPU bound has something to do with Java's reputation for slowness. I think your number 4 may be valid, but it doesn't belong in your list.

Re:Database written in Java? (5, Informative)

LnxAddct (679316) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868460)

You obviously haven't used java within the past 3 years or so.... Its speed on every platform I've developed on is no different then native speed, and in many scenarios its faster because of the many optimizations that java makes to your code and also from years of optimizing their own algorithms. This could be debated well... forever, but anymore if you need something faster then java then you should probably be using assembly. Speed and overall performance has only gotten better with the new 1.5 VM as well (It's now known as 5.0, and its still in beta but very useable).
Regards,
Steve

"public domain" is not the same as "open source" (5, Informative)

samuel4242 (630369) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868182)

Geez is the NYT dumb. Putting something in the "public domain" means you relinguish control. It's owned equally by everyone. Choosing an "open source" license means you keep control. If you're careful about how you do it, you can even change the license terms a bit later. MySQL is constantly tweaking their terms because they're the sole copyright owner. Sure, it's available under the GPL, but they can tweak the terms for preferred customers. And they do! That's still their perogative because the code is NOT in the public domain.

Re:"public domain" is not the same as "open source (1)

13Echo (209846) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868226)

Heh. You beat me to my own rant a few threads down. ;) Glad it's not just me that was annoyed with their wording and poor understanding of copyright.

Re:"public domain" is not the same as "open source (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868235)

I don't understand. Don't people external to MySQL AB submit (even very small) pacthes for MySQL? Don't they own a very small copyright on perhaps a few lines of the MySQL code?

Re:"public domain" is not the same as "open source (3, Informative)

jusdisgi (617863) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868265)

Nope...they won't put anything in without you signing the copyright over.

Re:"public domain" is not the same as "open source (2, Interesting)

samuel4242 (630369) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868286)

Yes, I think this has some value for such a monolythic project as MySQL. Plus, it's clear that such a program would have made life a bit easier for the Linux kernel team after the appearance of SCO. I don't know about most contributors, but I'm more interested in getting a working tool than keeping copyright of some snippet of code. So it doesn't bother me much.

Re:"public domain" is not the same as "open source (2, Interesting)

jonathanduty (541508) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868693)

That seems strange to me since everything at Jakarta is under the "Apache License". I wonder if this is a mis-print or will jakarta really host a project that is not under their license?

Value (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868184)

"...has been valued by IBM at $85M."

Now, it's free, so it's worthless.

Re:Value (3, Insightful)

NETHED (258016) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868277)

Not true. I'm sure this can be written off as a tax deduction. Something akin to a donation.

Re:Value (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868359)

Probably a deduction to help offset the losses required by the Linux division I'd guess... If they don't sell Linux/support, they have to pay the programmers somehow...

Re:Value (0)

hachete (473378) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868329)

Beware geeks bearing gifts...

Re:Value (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868348)

the word is priceless.

Re:Value (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868399)

So you either pay your 'girlfriend' for sex OR your sex is worthless.

Oh, wait, this is slashdot... never mind.

Re:Value (5, Insightful)

Tassach (137772) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868509)

It may well be worth $85M, but how much would it cost IBM to maintain it? Besides, it would only be worth that much if they could find a buyer, and it's pretty unlikely that they'd find someone to buy it at that price.

An $85M "asset" isn't worth much if you have to spend $16M a year maintaining and supporting it. Also, remember that IBM has several other database products this would be competing against. The fact that they released it as Open Source is a very good thing for everyone, considering that they could have just abandoned the code and kept it locked away. This way they get good publicity, reduce their maintenance costs, and get a nice tax break.

Another point that IBM really isn't in the business of selling either software or hardware anymore -- they sell SOLUTIONS. Nowadays, most of Big Blue's revenue comes from sending consultants out to tell customers what hardware and software they need to run their business, and then putting all the pieces together for them so the whole thing works. While they'd prefer to sell you IBM hardware and IBM software, they're pretty agnostic in that regard. Having their own pet OSS database allows them to offer an IBM-backed solution for lower-end projects which don't have the money for a DB2 license.

MySql Competition? (3, Interesting)

Ckwop (707653) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868187)

Is this designed to compete directly with MySql or is it like an open source version of Microsofts MSDE. Suitable for a small web app but not for hosting something like slashdot or Amazon? It's cool to see IBM once again support the OSS community.

Simon

Re:MySql Competition? (5, Informative)

jaaron (551839) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868278)

While I haven't used Cloudscape in a very long time, I imagine this is more competition to other Java open source databases like HSQL [sf.net] , Axion, or McKoi.

Most of these databases are used by "embedding" them into an application (something not uncommon in Java programming), not as a standalone database server like Oracle or Postgres. Of course, like I said, it's been a long time since I looked at Cloudscape so it could have changed to be more of a standlone server.

I'm also surprised I haven't heard more about this in Apache, but I imagine it will first go through the Apache Incubator [apache.org] to sort out any legal issues and then end up somewhere in the Apache Database [apache.org] project. If anyone has more info, I'm interested to know.

Re:MySql Competition? (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868291)

I think that Slashdot runs MySQL. So saying that MySQL cannot run big webapps is a bit of an underestimation :-)

Anyway, personally, I see it more as a competitor to hsqldb, which is also an embedded java DBMS. Or sqlite, although the latter is written in C++. It has the potential to become popular as a DBMS embedded in applications, but I don't think it is usable as a real stand-alone DBMS, such as MySQL.

Re:MySql Competition? (2, Insightful)

jusdisgi (617863) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868316)

You could have also said Google. But I concur...MySQL is definitely ready for heavy loads.

Re:MySql Competition? (5, Funny)

NineNine (235196) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868369)

MySQL is definitely ready for heavy loads

You're right. After all, it performs so well for Slashdot...

Re:MySql Competition? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868458)

Hey, son, they've been doing code updates to the web servers. It has nothing to do with MySQL. MySQL has been continuing along without a care in the world.

When you get the 503 error, it's not because something has failed, it's because they've switched the config to do so while they update that server.

Re:MySql Competition? (1)

BarryNorton (778694) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868465)

More interesting to some of us - how does it compare with MySQL in the areas that's not ready for... like providing for the use of some of the more interesting stuff in the SQL standards (subqueries, views etc.)?

(No, I'm not going to say triggers and stored procedures - I think there was just a story about this... and, btw, apologies if I'm behind on what MySQL does and doesn't implement since last year...)

Re:MySql Competition? (1)

hattmoward (695554) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868401)

(Holy crap, I'm aggreeing with an AC)

That's about what I was thinking, it looks like it's more oriented towards embedded databases, rather than client-server ones. Maybe the OP has heard of Microsoft's Jet database engine used with VB or FoxPro? A very nice combo for storing a small data set in a regular fashion. SQLite is very handy also, in the open-source world. Actually, isn't SQLite in the public domain? Good stuff.

I think it may be possible to use MySQL for a heavier embedded database... hence the dual-licensing, in case your company embeds MySQL, but doesn't want to GPL their product.

Re:MySql Competition? (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868578)

Rather than MSDE, wouldn't it be more of a hit against Microsoft's SQL Server 2005 Express that they released to beta a month or so ago..... ;)

Tax Reduction? (3, Insightful)

Lust (14189) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868188)

A win-win scenario for IBM: donate a software application at an inflated price for a big tax break while also looking good to the open-source community. At least that's how I assume it works in the US.

Compared to the alternative of supporting or shelving a dead application, can you blame them? Perhaps at least this will serve as a good model for other companies that still consider dead software as a corporate asset.

Re:Tax Reduction? (4, Informative)

Grullie (790814) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868221)

Cloudscape is hardly dead - it shows up prominently in Websphere Application Developer as the default embedded DB for EJB data. It feels a lot like MS Access - simple, quick, and dirty.

re: tax reduction? (1)

ed.han (444783) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868287)

say what you like about IBM: they're open source opportunists, they're patent barratry thugs, etc, but you gotta give 'em kudos for making a smart move here.

ed

Re:Tax Reduction? (2, Informative)

jusdisgi (617863) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868293)

That's precisely the way I read it...they don't see a need for this in their 'for money' software portfolio. Kept proprietary, there isn't really any way it would be profitable; this isn't something they can sell as a product...they might be able to embed it in hardware sales, but they can still do that. So, they just farm it out to the "free geek labor" and forget about it. It still has all the utility for them it did before, now they don't have to pay development costs, and furthermore they can write it off on both their balance sheet and their taxes. And the price they get to write off? Astronomical.

Re:Tax Reduction? (4, Interesting)

michaelggreer (612022) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868556)

I guess I don't see any problem with the fact that they benefit from this decision, nor am I surprised. The most powerful argument for open source is not a political one, but a business one: cheaper, more secure, fewer bugs. Since IBM has moved its business into service, open-sourcing their tools makes good sense. And, they only get "free geek labor" if the tool is actually useful to people, in which case its a win-win.

Re:Tax Reduction? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868404)

I am not an accountant, but I dont believe that this counts as a donation, as the apache software foundation is not a charity. I am sure there are some financial incentives to them doing this, but I believe its more complicated than a donation.

As for the inflated price, I think you are underestimating the value of an embedded database. POS systems are no small market.

Can I do that as well? (1)

houghi (78078) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868430)

donate a software application at an inflated price for a big tax break

If that were possible, what stops companies and people saying something is gazilions worth to them and then give it away.
It also gives the final missing point and prove that free software can make you money.

1) Write any code
2) Put extreme high price on code
3) Give code away
4) Profit!!

Or am I missing something?

Re:Can I do that as well? (1)

Tassach (137772) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868532)

Am I missing something
Don't think so. If tax savings >= projected revinue, then they'll show more money on the bottom line by giving it away then they would by selling it.

Foot in the door? (5, Insightful)

frostman (302143) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868199)

I had a look at the IBM product page and found this:


Supports complex SQL, transactions and JDBC so that your applications can be migrated to DB2 UDB when they need to grow.
...which makes me wonder whether this is part of a strategy to get the foundation and community to do the work maintaining something that may not have been profitable but was something their service division could get people using as a baby step towards DB2.

In any case it's cool they donated it. Being a database developer myself, I'm extremely wary of the "you don't need a DBA" claim, but regardless of the hype it looks like an interesting product that will fit in well with the Apache lineup.

Re:Foot in the door? (5, Interesting)

rjstanford (69735) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868233)

In any case it's cool they donated it. Being a database developer myself, I'm extremely wary of the "you don't need a DBA" claim, but regardless of the hype it looks like an interesting product that will fit in well with the Apache lineup.

I've never used Cloudscape, but coming from its Informix roots I trust this - to a certain extent, of course. If you never used Informix, it absolutely rocked in terms of stability and ease of maintenance. We had one Informix DBA for every 100 or so installed machines (with many installed instances per machine) for product support at my last company. It never got the press that Oracle did: they made the classic (beta, Xerox, TI, ...) mistake of assuming that just because they were technically superior that people would just flock to them. That, and you don't get the Informix consultants recommending the product like you do with Oracle - mainly because you don't need 'em around. 95% of the standard "Oracle add-on" products and services were either built in or not needed.

So since this was their most "simple" database, I have some pretty good feelings about it. One thing that would be interesting is that this will open up the code to their SQL optimizer. That's one area where Informix always truly rocked compared to pretty much everyone else outside of a lab situation. I don't know how much of it got into Cloudscape, of course.

NYT (4, Insightful)

13Echo (209846) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868201)

Leave it to NYT to misinform people. The article says that IBM put the code "in the public domain". The license by which the Apache foundation will distribute this is certainly NOT public domain. It later says "Apache will hold the licensing and intellectual property rights to the Cloudscape code."

I wish people would stop mixing these things with public domain. Apache's license, GPL, etc., are forms of copyright, and are NOT public domain.

Re:NYT (0)

T-Ranger (10520) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868322)

Uh, this is /.. Vent here, but we dont need explaination. Explain to the NYT.

Re:NYT (1)

B_tace (802354) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868420)

Let's all thank NYT for such an inaccurate article.

I have been watching Cloudscape for a while. I believe it was originally developed by a few folks who left Oracle. I am pretty sure it was the first pure-java Object-Relational database, even though Instant DB claims it was the first one. Once the folks at Cloudscape couldn't make enough sales, they sold the company to Informix. In turn, Informix was sold to IBM. IBM bundled the Cloudscape database with some of their tools such as Websphere and some obscure version of Notes. In their usual fashion IBM really didn't know what to do with such a unique product. Funny thing is that, now IBM supports Instant DB with Websphere. That decision must have came from the pointy haired boss himself.

Finally, IBM is releasing Cloudscape to Apache. As a DBA/Developer, I think a decent product like Cloudscape can really help the Apache suite of FOSS products become even more Enterprise ready.

503 SLASHDOT IS BROKEN (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868206)

All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the Poster. The Rest © 1997-2004 OSTG.

Re:503 SLASHDOT IS BROKEN (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868229)

No shit, what a bunch of ASS CLOWNS!

Tried to create an account, but NO, friggin 503!!!!

Re:503 : DELETE YOUR COOKIE (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868261)

delete your cookie and you can visit the site, it seems whoever touched the slashcode last, broke it somewhere in the login section (or the db is b0rken)
hmm no wonder its free

Re:503 : DELETE YOUR COOKIE (1)

duncanatlk (643480) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868534)

I have only had this problem with Firebird. IE works fine.

Re:503 : DELETE YOUR COOKIE (1)

Ronin Developer (67677) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868579)

I think you mean FireFox. Firebird is the Open Sourced (and enhanced) version of Borland Interbase.

As for the 503s - Glad to see that I was not the only one getting them. Like you, I initially saw them in Firefox only. Then, when I switched to IE, it, too, started exhibiting the same problem. For a while I thought work was blocking me from reaching /.

If i had a java database (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868224)



i would give it away too.

More techincal background (5, Informative)

TheToon (210229) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868234)

The Cloudscape homepage: Cloudscape [ibm.com]
And more details with links to PDF documents: Features and Benefits [ibm.com]

I would guess that mysql would be faster for simple stuff, but Cloudscape could give it a run for it's money with support for more complex SQL.

Wouldn't know how it compares agains postgresql...

Registration Required Link (2, Funny)

Patrick Lewis (30844) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868250)

Here is the registration required link [nytimes.com] . Don't even think you can pull that "parnter=rssuserland" crap around here, buddy.

No competition, way overpriced. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868255)

This is no competition to postgresql or any other RDBMS. This is akin to DBD::XBase or something; an SQL parser modifying flat files for script kiddies that write cheap websites for the grocer's next door who can't have an RDBMS from their geocities account. The face that IBM sticks a pricetag on it of 85 million is ridiculous. If that's the real price, then why is Jochen Wiedmann (the author of DBD::CSV) not a multi-millionaire ?

Re:No competition, way overpriced. (1)

sog11 (101143) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868376)

because DBD::XBase isn't included in over 70 internal IBM projects, ;)

Mckoi (3, Interesting)

Guillermito (187510) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868267)

There are other DBs written in Java , for example Mckoi SQL [mckoi.com] .

Mckoi SQL is quite usable, supports a great deal of the SQL 92 standard, and the performance is not bad (of course, talking about the range of database sizes for which it makes sense using an embedded sql engine

Does anyone have experience with Couldscape. How does it compare with Mckoi?

Re:Mckoi (1)

Mad_Rain (674268) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868553)

Does anyone have experience with Couldscape. How does it compare with Mckoi?

Well, first of all, Cloudscape has a prettier-sounding name than Mckoi, which will appeal to pointy-haired bosses everywhere...

Comparisons? (1)

tetranz (446973) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868270)

How will it compare to other free databases such as Microsoft SQL Express [microsoft.com]

Re:Comparisons? (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868432)

Hmm.. Are you trolling? That is BETA software.

Re:Comparisons? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868611)

He is a "greenskeeper".

Re:Comparisons? (2, Informative)

bheerssen (534014) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868568)

First off, Cloudscape runs on nearly every system in current use. MS SQL Express requires Windows (2000 or XP). It also requires a fairly beefy sytem for a light database. Check out the system requirements [microsoft.com] . Note that specialized MS platforms, such as MS Windows 2000 Datacenter Server (of all things) are not supported.

Finally, that MS crap is still beta software whereas Cloudscape is well tested, enterprise ready code.

Performance (5, Interesting)

DuncanE (35734) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868272)

Not really sure how it compares to mySql or postgres, but I loaded a 50+ million row table with a non index timestamp field to Cloudscape and MSSQL. Both took about 3 seconds to return a query returning a unique row (ie a row updated on a specific date and time) on this field on a 2ghz intel machine with 1GB RAM.

Firebird SQL was about the same. Next Im going to try HSQL.

I would be interested in anybody elses experiments?

Re:Performance (1)

hallucination (99572) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868389)

What is the point of this unrealistic benchmark? If you desined & built your database properly, there should be an index!

Re:Performance (1)

cmeans (81143) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868468)

IANADBA.

Seems like a simplistic attempt to compare raw i/o as it's just comparing simple table scans.

Not a bad approach for a simple comparison at this level.

Re:Performance (3, Insightful)

johnnliu (454880) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868574)


I don't think that's a very good test.

In real life, you either add an index, or you don't query a non-index unique field on a 50+ million table.

I'd think some sort of inner query is a better test for this.

CloudScape is primarily used in websphere (2, Insightful)

castlec (546341) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868290)

Maybe it's just me, but I believe cloudscape is primarily used inside Websphere to ease development of ejbs by making the database local. I can't see it being incredibly useful outside of that... only as development, not as anything deployed. i could be wrong....

From the features page... (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868297)

...sounds much like SQLite to me!
But it's probably MUCH more mature. :) And slower. :(

hmmm... (-1, Troll)

stavrosfil (801247) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868305)

It sounds like some people or companies are confusing open-source with trash bin ;)

Hsql (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868315)

A lot of people also use Hsql [sourceforge.net] , another free, open source, small foot-print Java database.

morons give eyecon0meter kode to gnu millennium (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868317)

this stuff is unbreakable, & wwworks on several (more than 3) dimensions.

as for the whoreabull payper liesense corepirate nazi stock markup FraUD softwar gangster execrable, in it's MANY forms (see also: robbIE & his infactdead PostBlock devise, google trying to steal a .com (froogles) from some disabled guy, etc..., on & on it goos), lookout bullow.

consult with/trust in yOUR creators.... sharing THE kode freely, since/until forever. see you there?

503 Service Unavailable (4, Funny)

stavrosfil (801247) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868326)

Great!!!

Maybe slashdot can used it to stop the 503 errors :)

Re:503 Service Unavailable (1)

stavrosfil (801247) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868345)

or do they already used, hence the errors?

Convert the front end to CSS. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868474)

Convert the front end to CSS. They could probably buy a few new servers with the bandwidth savings...

Re:503 Service Unavailable (5, Informative)

LnxAddct (679316) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868639)

Just remove your slashdot cookies and all is well again... go figure.
Regards,
Steve

P.S. Anyone know what the hell is going on over at Slashdot HQ?

Kinda similar to Berkeley DB for Java... (4, Insightful)

CitizenDan (698227) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868334)

Of anything out there I think Cloudscape is most similar to Berkeley DB for Java (an in-process DB). The comment about it being a stepping-stone to DB2 could be made about any JDBC-compliant DBMS...IBM just happens to favor theirs ;-)

"Open Source Name"? (4, Funny)

ceeam (39911) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868358)

Good thing it's Derby and not Firebird.

Anyway - why bother renaming and what is "Open Source Name"?

Re:"Open Source Name"? (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868489)

Renaming is good for differentiating the products. One has a comercial license and the other is free. The first probably provides some kind of support or other benefits not included in the free-licensed one. By renaming it the previous owners avoid problems. For example someone could claim that he was misslead to believe that he was using the "old-licensed" product and can claim damages or support or something similar. Whith totaly different names there is no serious way this can be claimed.

Correction (5, Informative)

cdegroot (14366) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868373)

Cloudscape was originally crated by Cloudscape, Inc. (I contracted for them at one time), which was later acquired by Informix.

At the time, it was a fairly complete and well-performing database with some nifty multi-database synchronization features, so even though I'm not involved in Java programming anymore this can turn out to be a quite interesting addition to Joe. A. Opensourcecoder's toolkit.

Sounds like there's some competition for hsqldb... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868395)

Hope it serves to improve both products

Now if IBM wants to get really nasty with Sun..... (2, Insightful)

ShatteredDream (636520) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868434)

They should donate their JVM to the Mozilla Foundation. Having a high quality, open source JVM would further undermine Sun's position in the Java market AND it would create a buffer against Microsoft's .NET. However, I don't think it would do much good against those that want to build on Mono.

Re:Now if IBM wants to get really nasty with Sun.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868514)

>"would further undermine Sun's position in the Java >market"
Practically everyone uses Sun's JVM, IBM's is usually a version or 2 behind.

>those that want to build on Mono.
Mono is only used by children

Thank You IBM (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868441)

Since I'm someone who will probably use it, and since there was a lot of money behind this gift (85 mil. is not a small amount), there is one thing I feel I must say:

Thank you, IBM. Thank you very much.

What would be good.... (2, Informative)

Phill Hugo (22705) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868491)

If someone could develop and release an Open Source / Free Software Java Object Database that can house live java objects and provide searching and modification on these objects. Zope built atop Python provides just this for Python users and is used to good sucess on many web sites (Zope provides through the web editing of Python/Zope objects and has a very nice search interface for finding that object you require). Everything in Zope is a Python object and is stored in a fast, low resource object datbase - this includes all your web site and the methods to run on them. Its great, free and fast and is available from www.zope.org.

What about Cirrus ... ? (2, Interesting)

kabz (770151) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868580)

Let's hope Microsoft haven't patented naming database software after clouds !!

(MS Access' project name was originally Cirrus)

Apache Corporation? (4, Informative)

gtrubetskoy (734033) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868587)


Funny how the word Apache in the article is linked to the stock ticker for APA. (Or may be not so funny) For the record - The Apache Software Foundation is a registered non-for-profit 501 c3 corporation incorporated in Delaware, and as such it does not have stock but rather can hand out membership to make one a stakeholder.

OEmg!! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868589)

OeMG teh micnorsoft googel is attaxing Teh Slashd0t!

An opensource alternative to Pointbase (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9868604)

This product does not compete against MySQL. It competes with HSQL, Pointbase, JDataStore, and any other pure Java database solution. It can be used with Java Webstart, to distribute a configuration free local database with your Java applications. I think this can also be used with Java Enabled Phones, and PDA's.

Opens Souce business model (1)

femto (459605) | more than 9 years ago | (#9868674)

Anyone get the feeling that IBM's new busines model is to donate any unused code to an open source software foundation and claim a corresponding amount ($85M in this case) on tax?
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