Beta
×

Welcome to the Slashdot Beta site -- learn more here. Use the link in the footer or click here to return to the Classic version of Slashdot.

Thank you!

Before you choose to head back to the Classic look of the site, we'd appreciate it if you share your thoughts on the Beta; your feedback is what drives our ongoing development.

Beta is different and we value you taking the time to try it out. Please take a look at the changes we've made in Beta and  learn more about it. Thanks for reading, and for making the site better!

Blackhat/Defcon Report

michael posted about 10 years ago | from the neuromancer dept.

Programming 305

Joe Barr writes "NewsForge [ed. note: part of OSTG along with Slashdot] is running its concluding piece on the week-long Blackhat/DEFCON hackerfest in Las Vegas. Want to know how little our police/intelligence agencies seem to have learned from their failures prior to 9/11? Or how a very large goon known only as Priest prevented outright political violence at a DEFCON presentation on Civil Disobedience? Or which of the two conferences is right for you? It's all here in the Blackhat/Defcon: Final report." Reader M. Curphey writes "The Web Application Security Consortium (WASC) announced at Blackhat the release of a 'Threat Classifications' document. This document attempts to clarify web security terminology such as Cross Site Scripting, Session Fixation, Cookie poisoning, and HTTP response splitting (to name a few)."

cancel ×

305 comments

Sorry! There are no comments related to the filter you selected.

no thanks... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9869739)

I think defcon stopped being fun years ago.

Hmm... (5, Interesting)

VeriTea (795384) | about 10 years ago | (#9869746)

Looks like the 503 Errors with Firefox are really slowing down discussions.

The article mentioned that the new number range search feature in Google could be particularly dangerous. Maybe I'm a little naive... why is it so dangerous?

Re:Hmm... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9869771)

I have been having 503 errors with IE5.5 at work all day.

Re:Hmm... (1)

kalirion (728907) | about 10 years ago | (#9869808)

I have been having 503 errors with IE5.5 at work all day.

All day? I've been getting the error for days with IE6. I only just found out that slashdot was actually up by linking to this story from googlenews!

Re:Hmm... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9870003)

The problem appears to be the cookies and user preferences, using a generic slashdot.org link, I can use the system, but once I login I get 503s all the time.

I suggest you clear the cookies and remove your autologin bookmark link (if you got one) and ride the storm.

Something is very wrong at slashdot hq.

Re:Hmm... (1)

evslin (612024) | about 10 years ago | (#9869793)

It's not just Firefox, I was having some trouble with Internet Explorer too.

Re:Hmm... (4, Informative)

Maestro4k (707634) | about 10 years ago | (#9869830)

  • Looks like the 503 Errors with Firefox are really slowing down discussions.
They're not just in Firefox, they're affecting everyone. Slashdot's been more like SlashNOT this week so far.

Re:Hmm... (4, Informative)

Cramer (69040) | about 10 years ago | (#9870065)

There have been a high number of occurances of 503's since the zero-notice updates a few weeks ago. (at the same time, all web pages started returning "no-cache" so simple brower navigation is forced to redownload every byte on every mouse click. When I logged a bug about this, it was immediately dismissed without comment.)

Re:Hmm... (3, Interesting)

DAldredge (2353) | about 10 years ago | (#9870181)

Hell, when I asked about it the remaining views on my /. sub went to ZERO. I had several hundred left and BOOM they where gone.

Re:Hmm... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9870183)

Everyone know that Netcraft shows the Slashdot is dieing...

Doom 3 pirated--news that Slashdot won't report (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9869901)

Gamespot [gamespot.com] and the BBC [bbc.co.uk] are reporting that several thousands of illegal copies of Doom 3 were pirated over the weekend. One technology correspondent estimates that Activision and id Software lost up to "$2,749,500 worth of software at Doom 3's $54.99 sticker price." Activision has no comment, but Matt Pierce of PC Gamer has some harsh words. John Carmack is reportedly not happy. The game is legally scheduled for release today.

Re:Doom 3 pirated--news that Slashdot won't report (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9869927)

A: It was posted on slashdot's Beta News section titled "Doom 3 Leaks Out"
B:They have lost $3million before the game has been released? please, the people who download the game wont affect sales much, either they will buy the game(like they would have before, or might find it better than expected and buy it), or won't because they wouldn't have had it not been for free, or they won't like the game and not buy it cause of that.

Re:Doom 3 pirated--news that Slashdot won't report (0, Flamebait)

tekwiz (709188) | about 10 years ago | (#9869956)

why would they report the obvious...and you troll like its a big deal..it's a no brainer. shut up already

Re:Hmm... (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9869912)

Try googling:

visa 4356000000000000..4356999999999999

For example. Not saying this is the only way to find these, but it certainly is an interesting application of Google.

Re:Hmm... (1, Funny)

zaffir (546764) | about 10 years ago | (#9869949)

Holy shit.

LOL! (1)

SatanicPuppy (611928) | about 10 years ago | (#9870040)

No lie! I can't believe people are that STUPID!

I mean, with security through obscurity, you have to at least make sure it's not making it to freaking google.

Re:Hmm... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9870073)

*laugh* - yeah, I think that says it all.

Re:Hmm... (4, Funny)

rokzy (687636) | about 10 years ago | (#9869971)

please turn yourself in to your nearest police station for exposing a technology security flaw. you can car pool with the guy who discovered the shift key if you like.

Re:Hmm... (2, Interesting)

Xshare (762241) | about 10 years ago | (#9869999)

That's just scary... and crazy. I can't believe it.

Only on Slashdot... (2, Interesting)

RickHunter (103108) | about 10 years ago | (#9870001)

Would something like this get modded up to +5, Interesting.

Re:Only on Slashdot... (1)

rokzy (687636) | about 10 years ago | (#9870025)

as opposed to what? businessdot: -1, Exposing the Management's Incompetance

Re:Only on Slashdot... (2, Informative)

IncarnadineConor (457458) | about 10 years ago | (#9870099)

It is interesting, it had never dawned on me.

Re:Hmm... (2, Interesting)

rafelbev (194458) | about 10 years ago | (#9870203)

Ok...

I knew google was quite powerful. Recently there was a post regarding how it was possible to retreive passwords hosted on websites due to negligence or simple Frontpage Extensions.

This one is outright dangerous. At least my number wasn't listed!!

Call the police ... seriously

Re:Hmm... (2, Funny)

SpaceLifeForm (228190) | about 10 years ago | (#9869938)

And 500 errors also. Though, those may be due to the server running out of the new coloured ink.

Re:Hmm... (1)

One Childish N00b (780549) | about 10 years ago | (#9870033)

I think it's a server problem rather than a Firefox client issue - Since OSDN turned into OSTG (why that change anyway? OSDN rolls much more nicely off the tongue) I think Slashdot's pipe has been reduced and it can't handle as many users as before, so it's basically Slashdotting itself.

Apologies if I'm wrong, though, maybe it's an issue somewhere else - but that's what it looks like to me.

Re:Hmm... (1)

Aliencow (653119) | about 10 years ago | (#9870103)

Since when are server side error caused by the browser ? Especially when loading a page that didn't ask the browser for any input such as forms or anything?

Girls (4, Interesting)

Klar (522420) | about 10 years ago | (#9869749)

I have been thinking of going to defcon for the last lil while, and maybe will be able to next year. The trip would also need to include my g/f, she knows a bit about computers, but not a whole lot. In your opinion, would there be enough for her to do there, or should she venture other places?

Re:Girls (1, Funny)

Aardpig (622459) | about 10 years ago | (#9869783)

I have been thinking of going to defcon for the last lil while, and maybe will be able to next year. The trip would also need to include my g/f, she knows a bit about computers, but not a whole lot. In your opinion, would there be enough for her to do there, or should she venture other places?

If she's Ceren [spilth.org] , go for it. Otherwise, don't bother.

Re:Girls (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9869915)

I love the way any mention of that woman always comes with a picture.

Though, it's /., I should expect no less from you dorkfaces.

Re:Girls (1)

Penguinisto (415985) | about 10 years ago | (#9869788)

I take my missus with me to Networld, and she has zero problems with hitting the casinos while I fart around in the convention halls.

Re:Girls (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9869829)

would there be enough for her to do there, or should she venture other places?

Ask her to spike her hair and wear tight skimpy clothes and there will be lots for her to do.

Re:Girls (4, Funny)

vegaspctech (769513) | about 10 years ago | (#9869839)

Bring a girl to defcon? Isn't that like bringing a pizza to a fat farm?

;-)

Seriously, bring her along. If she doesn't like the event, there's plenty for her to do nearby.

Re:Girls (3, Informative)

DecoDragon (161394) | about 10 years ago | (#9869863)

First off, there are females at DefCon, and not all of them are there, because they think it's an easy place to pick up guys.

That said, have her look at the program and see if any of the talks are interesting to her. If she knows only a bit, maybe the technical talks won't be that interesting, but the talks that delve into the overlap between politics and technology might be of interest. I'm guessing if she's not that into it, the contests wouldn't be very fun to her.

If it's not her thing at all, have her look and see if Vegas is something interesting to her, and she can join you later. But, I'd be more inclined to say, if it's not her thing, plan a different trip that both of you would enjoy before or after DefCon.

Doom 3 pirated--news that Slahsdot won't report (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9870174)

Gamespot [gamespot.com] and the BBC [bbc.co.uk] are reporting that several thousands of illegal copies of Doom 3 were pirated over the weekend, shaping up to be one of the most pirated pieces of software of all time. One technology correspondent estimates that Activision and id Software lost up to "$2,749,500 worth of software at Doom 3's $54.99 sticker price." Activision has no comment, but Matt Pierce of PC Gamer has some harsh words. John Carmack is reportedly not happy. The game is legally scheduled for release today.

Re:Doom 3 pirated--news that Slahsdot won't report (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9870201)

STFU Troll

Re:Girls (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9870209)

>because they think it's an easy place to pick up guys.

"easy" may be an understatement.

then again, she may find that "guy" is not a sufficient filter for those who she would want to pick up.

Re:Girls (1)

Minkas_Detroit_Techn (772875) | about 10 years ago | (#9869981)

There are lots of girls at defcon, someare computer people, some want to be, some are just crazy artsy. Check out pictures from the defcon8 of all the girls. Love the shoes and matching mailbox. It's Vegas, girls will find something to do in Vegas, best of all they get invited to all the cool parties. http://www.bluespruce.org/tours/dc8.html [bluespruce.org]

Re:Girls (2, Interesting)

junk (33527) | about 10 years ago | (#9870047)

1) don't go to defcon, it's over. there hasn't been a good con for years

2) if you fail to adhere to recommendation 1, don't bring your girlfriend. it's a very trying place as it is.

3) if you fail to go with either recommendation, make sure you have a strong liver and a desire to not get anything useful out of a very expensive weekend

Defcon died after 9, I'm just said it took me 'til 11 to fully realize it.

Nope the far left isn't out of control (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9869754)

Screaming incoherantly about committing illegal acts is the only way to get your message heard huh?

Did you ever think nobody listens to you because YOU have the wrong idea not everybody else?

Liberals, what a class act.

Struggling... (5, Interesting)

perlglob (800781) | about 10 years ago | (#9869755)

I've attended the past 7 defcons, and I'm starting to feel like it's losing its magic. The first defcon I went to (defcon 3) had a crowd that was much more focused on doing meaningful hacking (some ethical, some otherwise) in the field...it seems like now it's a bunch of 20 year olds who think they're hackers because they know how to reprogram their mac address on their linux labtop.

Maybe I'm just getting old, but it feels like the good old days are passing me by.

Who is fighting to save slashdot? [slashdot.org]

Re:Struggling... (1)

ResidntGeek (772730) | about 10 years ago | (#9869784)

The past 7 years was the coming of the AOL generation. The good old days are gone. Sorry, dude.

Re:Struggling... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9870036)

Defcon 10 was my last, it's too commercial (mainstream) and has turned into a groupie thing. I miss Vegas, but would rather plan a mini-con with the people who I respect.

Defcon 10 was good and relaxing, most likely because parents could not afford to send their 15 yrs olds to Vegas to destroy the hotel with the economy in shambles. People were back to talking about technology more and less about the latest warez.

I heard the new management at the Alexis sucks also, they were scalping on the beers.

int27h

Goodbye OSDN, hello OSTG (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9869759)

Goodbye news, hello 503

is this also the reason for the shitty IT colours?

What police/intelligence agencies have learned. (5, Interesting)

Maestro4k (707634) | about 10 years ago | (#9869763)

  • Want to know how little our police/intelligence agencies seem to have learned from their failures prior to 9/11?
I'm afraid we don't need Black Hat/Defcon to tell us this. Just yesterday we had major terrorism alerts about specific targets and today we find out the information was all years old. Does that mean the buildings weren't targets still? Well seeing as some of the info went back prior to 9/11 it would make it seem a fairly safe bet that the seriousness of the threat was vastly overstated.

So we know what they haven't learned quite well and many of us keep hoping they'll stop crying wolf without good reason. It's only so long till most Americans start ignoring the terror alerts as things now stand, something that would be very bad.

I'm sure there were plenty of more interesting things at Black Hat/Defcon though. :)

Re:What police/intelligence agencies have learned. (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9869910)

today we find out the information was all years old

I think all that means is that the terrorists are going on scouting missions. IOW, scout possible targets, determine some facts about them, etc. It's the same thing militaries have done for centuries: figure out what to attack and what impact it might have.

The question is whether the targets scouted are still considered relevant by the terrorists. This is the type of stuff intelligence services need to find out, and in a timely manner. And if it is still a relevant target, find out if attacks are planned or are being planned. Get info on those plans, etc etc until an attack can be thwarted.

Now whether or not our gov't should be reacting the way it is to this info (orange alerts in NYC, Newark, Washington, etc) I dont really know. They (the gov't) might have other info not releasable to the public, and keep in mind the RNC will be at Madison Square Gardens later this month.

Re:What police/intelligence agencies have learned. (1)

Maestro4k (707634) | about 10 years ago | (#9870095)

  • The question is whether the targets scouted are still considered relevant by the terrorists. This is the type of stuff intelligence services need to find out, and in a timely manner. And if it is still a relevant target, find out if attacks are planned or are being planned. Get info on those plans, etc etc until an attack can be thwarted.
You hit the nail on the head. The prevailing opinion in all the news articles I can find today is that the jumped the gun, that the info the terrorists had on these targets hadn't been updated in a year or so and was probably stale, indicating they'd moved on to new targets.
  • Now whether or not our gov't should be reacting the way it is to this info (orange alerts in NYC, Newark, Washington, etc) I dont really know. They (the gov't) might have other info not releasable to the public, and keep in mind the RNC will be at Madison Square Gardens later this month.
I had forgotten the RNC was going to be there, that's a good point and probably factored into why they raised the alert, even if all the info they had is what we know about. I'd say the RNC is a more likely target than the DNC was simply because the sitting president will be at it.

One thing I've thought of is the possibility that Al Queda's letting info like this fall into our hands to throw us off track. A little ruse to make us protect the wrong thing while they mosey in and attack their preferred target. That might just be my normal paranoia talking though.

Re:What police/intelligence agencies have learned. (3, Insightful)

smooth wombat (796938) | about 10 years ago | (#9869940)

It's only so long till most Americans start ignoring the terror alerts as things now stand,. . .

What do you mean start to ignore terror alerts? I haven't listened to one since the beginning!

Cue the Herman Goering quote about keeping people in fear. . .

How could you? (0, Flamebait)

SatanicPuppy (611928) | about 10 years ago | (#9870205)

Yellow, yellow, orange, yellow, yellow, orange, yellow, RED RED WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE, yellow, yellow...

Are we supposed to continually crap our shorts because they arbitrarily raise and lower some spurious "threat status?" Yea, there may even BE threats, but, you know what, they are at about the same level they've been at for the last 10 years or longer.

Hell, even the rednecks aren't panicing anymore, and it doesn't take much to get them going about "Terrorist Threats." I moved down to Georgia in 2002, from being in New Jersey, and working in NYC, and I had to continually bite my tongue to keep from laughing in the faces of all these people who were forever telling me, "It could happen right here." Well sure it could, but crashing a cropduster into a Waffle House isn't going to have the same kind of effect.

And if people down HERE are sick of it, I can only imagine what its like in the rest of the country. There are only so many times you can cry wolf, and still be believed.

Re:What police/intelligence agencies have learned. (1)

The Ultimate Fartkno (756456) | about 10 years ago | (#9870082)

I think the big thing that the government did just learn is that the president can stand on TV and announce the creation of an "intelligence czar" and not one damned person in the room will jump up and say "So what in the name of the sweet baby Jebuz is Tom frigging Ridge, then? Huh?" That scares me more than the Al Quaedas, kids.

Just one thing that very few learn... (4, Interesting)

Penguinisto (415985) | about 10 years ago | (#9869765)

...it's easier to know how to break into a system/box/whatever, than it is to learn exactly what happened and take measures to prevent it.

Sure, some items are fairly obvious, but I'm willing to wager that there are a lot of exploits that even dedicated security officials aren't aware of, simply because the exploit was found and put to use, but never reported.

As it applies to 9/11, I'm fairly certain that OBL and his boys are more willing to shell out the cash for the folks who can find undiscovered vulns than for scripters who get their rocks off by passing around " 'sploits".

Given this, I doubt there is too awful much one can learn about securing the network completely against future attacks.

/P

Re:Just one thing that very few learn... (5, Insightful)

wayward (770747) | about 10 years ago | (#9869836)

To paraphase Gene Spafford when he talked about the idea of hiring hackers as security experts, an arsonist isn't necessarily well-qualified to be on a fire department.

Re:Just one thing that very few learn... (3, Insightful)

ResidntGeek (772730) | about 10 years ago | (#9870014)

An arsonist just pours some gas and lights a match. That's more like what a script kiddie does. They just throw some exploits at random machines and try to install subseven. Obviously they don't know jack about security. A skilled hacker is more like an experienced thief. They use complex techiques to avoid detection, make surgical strikes at predetermined targets, and learn about their targets' security measures to more effectively neutralize them. Those people make good security experts.

Re:Just one thing that very few learn... (3, Insightful)

wayward (770747) | about 10 years ago | (#9870120)

One real security problem is that the complexity of attacks is increased, but the difficulty of launching them has decreased. The more skilled hackers create scripts or point-and-click tools, and the script kiddies can use them without having to know much about what they're doing. One book had a transcript of a conversation from an irc hacking channel, and some of the "hackers" seemed to be lacking in basic knowledge. For example, one of them wasn't too sure how to mount a second hard drive in Linux.

I'm not sure what motivates the more talented black hats to create easy-to-use programs for script kiddies. Someone suggested that they didn't want to bother deploying them. It also occurred to me that the script kiddies would be more likely to get caught and prosecuted if anything went wrong.

Re:Just one thing that very few learn... (1)

SilentOne (197494) | about 10 years ago | (#9870140)

Who do you think Vegas Casinos hire to run their security departments?

so who all is going to the virgin fest ?!?! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9869772)

fp

Crimethinc (5, Insightful)

evslin (612024) | about 10 years ago | (#9869812)

Questions were asked about what "going over the line" meant. Assclowns like Crimethinc are exactly what you'd want to point at and say "that's what I'm talking about." Disagreeing with the government (or even just Republicans) is one thing, but going around encouraging people to vandalize websites/etc is something else.

Jesus. No wonder he looked like he was expecting to be arrested.

Re:Crimethinc (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9869932)

Idiots like this may as well go on the Republican payroll. It's all fine to be a mindlessly enthusiastic twit, but when you have the skills and ability to do serious damage to things, you lose that option and have to THINK seriously about the consequences of your actions.

What did he think would be likely to happen in the wake of acts of political vandalism, such as he advocates? Reductions in police powers in the governtment? Reduced government action against hackers? A more permissive government attitude towards legitimate, nonviolent, nondestructive acts of protest?

In any area I can think of, the consequences of the sort of infantile tactics he advocates would be a setback, by DECADES, of any civil rights cause even remotely associated with computing and activism.

The thing that pisses me off the most about this is that the damn twit could have spent that session brainstorming with the crowd, coming up with forms of protest that both got a message out and were PERSUASIVE, while also respecting the times we live in. Any angry four year old can come up with something as inventive as breaking someone else's toys. Not to mention the fact that the authorities don't need another group of terrorists/large-scale vandals to track.

The problem, of course, is that running a session like that would require a display of a) respect b) creativity and c) intelligence, all of which this speaker seems to lack.

Protest is great, but counter-productive protest is just masturbation. And if you are reading this and getting angry at me, take a minute, step back, and think. I'm not saying not to protest, i'm saying "protest smart, not hard", if I can paraphrase the old "work smart, not hard" saying. If you are enthusiastic enough to protest, you deserve to have that protest make a real difference, a real change for the better.

Think of it as avoiding the Nader Error, which is going to great lengths to set your own cause back.

Re:Crimethinc (0)

LibrePensador (668335) | about 10 years ago | (#9869998)

Are vandalism and terrorism now interchangeable terms?

This country's language has been co-opted by the hard right to such an extent that even progressives like you often have had your consciousness arrested.

Other than that, I am with you about the importance of sensible tactics.

Who's the assclown? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9869934)

So the guy who spoke at Defconf and argued for giving those attending the Republicats convention a hard time. So what?

What surprised me is that the journalist did not have any problems with having the guy thrown out simply because the guy's speech was controversial. They justified censorship by stating that they had to stop him for his protection. Since when does a person in America have to abdicate his own personal responsibility and be protected in his person for his own speech?

As far as I can tell from their web site, Crimethinc does try to shake people out of apathy, but their most important weapon is language:

http://www.crimethinc.com/library/english/conten ts .html

http://www.crimethinc.com/library/english/libsel ec t.html

Re:Who's the assclown? (1)

dmaynor (796855) | about 10 years ago | (#9870030)

He wasn't thrown out.

Hacktivism (1)

wayward (770747) | about 10 years ago | (#9869973)

I've heard of "hactivists" targeting child pornography sites. This makes a little more sense. But vandalizing a legal website, even one you disagree with, seems childish and malicious.

This 503 stuff is getting nuts (4, Interesting)

phoxix (161744) | about 10 years ago | (#9869824)

Can we get an official word on whats going on?

Sunny Dubey

Re:This 503 stuff is getting nuts (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9869848)

No. And if you ask again, thereby showing what poseurs the proprietors of this web site really are, you'll be IP-banned for two weeks. Do you doubt that? Just make a disparaging remark about Michael Moore and see how long you're banned.

Re:This 503 stuff is getting nuts (1)

minus_273 (174041) | about 10 years ago | (#9869970)

funny my home IP range has been blocked fro ages.

Re:This 503 stuff is getting nuts (1)

junk (33527) | about 10 years ago | (#9870018)

i make disparaging comments about moore all the time. hell, i'm a reader and advocate of moorewatch.com, moorelies.com and bowlingfortruth.com.

Re:This 503 stuff is getting nuts (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9870029)

Try deleting your cookies/logging out. Seems to be a problem in the authentication mechinism.

Re:This 503 stuff is getting nuts (1)

Rorschach1 (174480) | about 10 years ago | (#9870043)

Seriously. I thought maybe I'd missed some important announcement, but I can't find anything. What's the deal? I thought I heard at one point that it was caused by RSS load, but I haven't heard any more on that subject.

Re:This 503 stuff is getting nuts (1)

athakur999 (44340) | about 10 years ago | (#9870100)

Oddly enough, the links in the RSS feed are the only way I've been making it to Slashdot lately. For some reason, I only have a problem getting to the main page, but individual story pages are fine. The RSS feeds lets me go straight to the story feed.

About one of the articles posted... (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9869844)

One of the articles speaks about a guy who spoke at Defconf and promoted giving those attending the Republicats convention a hard time.

What surprised me is that the journalist did not have any problems with having the guy thrown out simply because the guy's speech was controversial. They justified censorship by stating that they had to stop him for his protection. Since when does a person in America have to abdicate his own personal responsibility and be protected for his own speech?

As far as I can tell from their web site, Crimethinc does try to take people out of apathy, but their most important weapon is language:

http://www.crimethinc.com/library/english/conten ts .html

http://www.crimethinc.com/library/english/libsel ec t.html

Re:About one of the articles posted... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9869860)

Advocating violence and property damage against people is not freedom of speech it is sedition.

Constitution much?

Re:About one of the articles posted... (1, Flamebait)

LibrePensador (668335) | about 10 years ago | (#9869913)

Loaded words, mucho?

Who defines what's sedition? Do you remember an old document that argues that when a government has become too corrupt and opressive, its citizens might be justified in overthrowing it by any means necessary?

As far as I am concerned, the Republicats are guilty of treason themselves for misleading Americans into war, selling the country to the Chinese by borrowing hugely from them and passing the Patriot Act, which represents the biggest erosion in civil liberties that we have seen in the past 25 years.

Re:About one of the articles posted... (1)

stanmann (602645) | about 10 years ago | (#9869991)

The Clintons sold out the the Chinese. And the jury is still out on the "misleading Americans into war" and the evidence currently points to the war being the best call on the information currently available. Further absence of evidence is NOT the same as evidence of absence and we've only got a few hundred thousand square miles of desert we haven't searched yet.

My vote is that we find more evidence of either and active or temporarily on hold WMD program.

Re:About one of the articles posted... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9870046)

Nonsense. The Bush Administration has borrowed more heavily from the Chinese than any other administration. It has also plunged the country into debt and began squandering social security to justify a war and a tax cut for the rich that the country could simply not afford.

There simply are no WMDs. Fox News has conviced some Americans that there is a hell of a lot of sand in Iraq. Current imaging technology is very effective at finding WMDs once you are on the ground.

I suggest you give it up or find a better way to peddle your pro-war agenda.

Re:About one of the articles posted... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9870142)

I see that you had nothing to say about the Patriot Act.

You pick your fights selectively. Smart...

So it is ok to tell people that you have fairly specific knowledge about the existence of WMD and then to claim that you don't know where they are. You just need time. What kind of time threshold would work for you to accept that there are WMDs?

Finally, it is misleading when you try to blur the difference in the mind of the American public betwen Al-Qaeda and Hussein's Iraq by blaming the latter for the crimes of the former. And it is miselading when you start a war even though the weapons inspectors are making progress and when they state themselves that that is the case and that they are getting an unprecedented level of cooperation. And it is even more misleading when you try to rewrite history by claiming subsequently, as Messier le President Bush has done, that we just had to go in because they woulnd't let the inspectors in, which he has stated more than once.

Re:About one of the articles posted... (1)

crimethinker (721591) | about 10 years ago | (#9870101)

I was going to mod you down as flamebait, but then I reconsidered, mainly because you seem to be one of the few people that understand the Declaration of Independence: the government is the servant of the people, not the other way 'round.

Still, I wish people would quit focusing so exclusively on the evils of the current administration, and acting like John Kerry would be so much better. It's exactly the kind of thinking that got us W four years ago. Remember? Clinton was corrupt to the core, Gore was seen as Clinton-Lite, and we voted (yes, W won, get over it) for W instead because he had to be better than Gore.

We need to stop thinking of Democrat and Republican and start thinking about 3rd parties, returning to the limited government our Founding Fathers envisioned.

-paul

Re:About one of the articles posted... (1)

Seraphim_72 (622457) | about 10 years ago | (#9870164)

Still, I wish people would quit focusing so exclusively on the evils of the current administration Conversely, I wish people would stop being so myopic about the evils of the current adminstration.

Re:About one of the articles posted... (2, Informative)

stanmann (602645) | about 10 years ago | (#9869966)

Did you read the same article I did? IN the article I read, the security showed up and sat next to him during his diatribe and only removed him AFTER one of the spectators appeared to be on the verge of violence toward the speaker(and this was during or after the Q&A portion of the presentation).

Wrong opinions (2, Insightful)

nuggz (69912) | about 10 years ago | (#9870012)

Having the wrong opinion and voicing it is generally okay.

Free speech ends when you're inciting violence.

so how would you revolt? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9870182)

when the government, specifically the supreme court, is the sole arbiter of where freedom of speech ends, you've already found yourself in a hell of a mess. (most people use the shouting fire example, but there are reasons you should restrain your freedom of speech even if entitled to it) The act of governing others needs to grow out of governing oneself, because until you can control yourself you're not capable of laying down the law for anyone else.

I might break the law by soap-boxing violent revolution, but I will do so knowing full well the consequences i am accepting if i fail to overthrow the government. Revolution is not meant to be easy, if it wasn't hard it wouldn't be effective; and regardless of lofty ideals, there is no such thing as justice - two forces collide and the stronger wins.

9/11 lessons (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9869858)

from the article:
Christy had mentioned that one of the things they were doing at Defcon was recruiting. He went on to tell the crowd that if they were interested, and "had not gone over the line," to talk to him afterwards. The "had not gone over the line" comment became one of the hottest topics during the Q&A.

It appears that the lessons the intelligence community has learned from 9/11 have not yet trickled all the way down through the federal bureaucracy -- particularly that bit about the failure of our intelligence pre-9/11 being primarily because of our loss of vital HUMINT owing to both budget and moral directives. When the CIA was told it could only use politically correct HUMINT operatives, it lost its most vital flow of intelligence.


Actually, I think the remark in question -- "had not gone over the line" -- meant no the criminal record, stable finances, etc. required of regular government employees who need clearances, like programmers and sys admins. IOW, they were looking for technical staffers for work at HQ.

The PC'ness at the CIA regarding HUMINT referred to who they could and couldn't hire as intelligence sources. E.g. (hypothetical examples here), several years ago, the CIA could hire a mid-level Iraqi military paper-pusher to smuggle out documents about what Saddam was up to, but at the same time couldn't hire a low-level al Qaeda operative to do the same because he's gone through terror training involving weapon experiments on animals. Even if the operative could give excrutiating details about the next terror strike (such as time/place/MO), he had done those evil experiments on animals, which somehow made him ineligible for the CIA payroll. (How such rules came into effect I dont know)

Whether or not US intelligence has changed this since 9/11 I dont know the answer. I do know that one such scenario I described above was something discussed at length by news orgs immediately after 9/11 as speculation for why the US intelligence failed. (IMO, there shouldn't be such silly restrictions on who the CIA can hire as sources. If the source gives good info, pay him for it to encourage more. If he don't, or the stuff he gives is turns out to be unreliable, stop paying him.)

But as for "going over the line" - for what the guy was looking for in personnel, he means things like ability to pee in a cup cleanly, unlike Ricky Williams, and not having a rap sheet.

Re:9/11 lessons (1)

Vexler (127353) | about 10 years ago | (#9870144)

I would agree with you in that the Feds are looking for those who are generally upstanding citizens who are not, and have not been, career criminals, before they filled out the application forms.

What they leave out the picture are grayer operations, where they do in fact work with criminals. But such actions are almost always intended to catch bigger fish and not to compromise the security of the country as a whole. Recall the American truck driver who was a foot soldier for al Qaeda. (This was in the last year or so; I don't have exact dates.) They had caught the guy, then offered him lighter dealings in exchange for information of and with his superiors. They had in fact been privy to a lot of communiques between the low-level operative and his handler, and that was how they got a peek into the actual language (i.e. code words and phrases) that was used in their emails.

So when the Feds work with blackhatters, it is virtually always the case that they (the Feds) believe they can come out ahead in the endgame, not necessarily because they think breaking into things is cool.

Oxymoronic Priest Quote (4, Insightful)

Rufus88 (748752) | about 10 years ago | (#9869862)

"We got the call for trouble in the room. The gentleman, I was told, was preaching sedition. I knew that we had to take some steps quickly preventing that. Defcon is definitely for free speech, definitely for legal civil disobedience. But not anarchy, not psychopathic destruction of property. " [Emphasis mine]

Civil disobedience is, by definition, illegal. That's the whole point of it.

Re:Oxymoronic Priest Quote (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9869894)

Are you a government-trained lawmaking expert, Mr. Rufus? No? Well then, I'm afraid you are not qualified to decide what the "whole point" of any law is.

Re:Oxymoronic Priest Quote (1)

Rufus88 (748752) | about 10 years ago | (#9869954)

Are you a government-trained lawmaking expert, Mr. Rufus? No? Well then, I'm afraid you are not qualified to decide what the "whole point" of any law is.

I know I shouldn't feed the AC trolls, but I can't resist:

I did not make any comment on the "whole point" of any particular law. I commented on the whole point of civil disobedience. Civil disobedience is not a law. It is the willful and public breaking (hence illegal) of an unjust law, in the hopes of receiving the corresponding punishment, as a means of protesting that law.

Re:Oxymoronic Priest Quote (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9870080)

Someone doesn't read Harry Potter enough.

Re:Oxymoronic Priest Quote (0)

j_kenpo (571930) | about 10 years ago | (#9869969)

"Civil disobedience is, by definition, illegal. That's the whole point of it" To keep with the Orwellian overtone of the speaker, I believe that is "doublethink"

Again, the Left is inciting violence (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9869878)

How is it that the members of the most dovish American ideology when it comes to foreign policy always seem to be the ones for inciting violence against their domestic enemies? CrimeThinc (yes, I actually read the article) is just one of a long line stretching back to the Weatherman Underground and the SLA up to the Seattle WTO protestors smashing windows. Discounting lone nuts like Timothy McVee (and remember that the Oklahoma City bombing was universally condemned among conservatives), how is it that the half of America which owns guns is never the one calling for violence?

Crow T. Trollbot

Re:Again, the Left is inciting violence (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9869939)

Can you blame them? The media largely ignores them unless they riot. Don't get me wrong, I do not condone violence like this, but I am also acutely aware that their voice is largely ignored by major media players (whether it's intentional or not), until their existence is brought to the forefront via riots, violence, etc, then the media tells you why they're protesting, inteview some of the protestors, etc.

Re:Again, the Left is inciting violence (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9869977)

Old school anarchists and old-school left are almost gone. In thier place you have the 'new left', libertarians and these anarcho-fascists who seem only to want the government off thier backs so they can commit themselves wholly to destroying their communities and anything that involves a more complicated social structure than neolithic tribalism.

Re:Again, the Left is inciting violence (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9870004)

There are some anti-abortion groups (on the conservative end of the spectrum) which advocate violence, and also militia groups (some of which McVeigh had contact with) which also advocate violence. There have been numerous other right-wing groups in America which have used violence against their political enemies - in the sixties there were more than a couple anti-war protesters that got their heads bashed in with axe handles. Also don't forget the various Civil Rights workers in the south during the 50s/60s who were murdered by folks who were definitely on the right-wing end of the spectrum.

It's not as one sided as you make it out to be.

Re:Again, the Left is inciting violence (5, Insightful)

smooth wombat (796938) | about 10 years ago | (#9870026)

how is it that the half of America which owns guns is never the one calling for violence?

You've never heard of militias, have you? Listen to some of the right-wing crud that they spew and you'll see how wrong your comment is.

Southern Michigan Regional Militia [michiganmilitia.org]
Militia of Montana [militiaofmontana.com]

Those are just two to get you started but feel free to do your own research.

Re:Again, the Left is inciting violence (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9870113)

Seattle WTO protestors smashing windows
those weren't wto protestors, those were opportunistic vandals.

Violence is both Leftist and Rightist (4, Insightful)

FreeUser (11483) | about 10 years ago | (#9870141)

How is it that the members of the most dovish American ideology when it comes to foreign policy always seem to be the ones for inciting violence against their domestic enemies?

For the same reason that the radical right are always the ones who seem to be inciting violence against their domestic enemies. Tim McVee is hardly unique in his political stance and aspirations, nor have you cited anyone on the left that equals his level of destructiveness or intent (there are such people, but CrimeThinc is hardly of that caliber. He is not advocating mass murder).

The reality is that the so-called political spectrum is more of a sphere than a line. The extreme right and far left meet and become one and the same. Consider the similiarities of Stalin and Hitler, for example. Kids blowing up toilets to protest vietnam bear a striking similiarity to skinheads defacing jewish tombstones. Republican thugs terrorizing librarians and volunteers during the Florida recount bear a striking resemblence to communists in China enforcing campus-wide political correctness vis-a-vis the One True Party(tm) system.

Radicalism is radicalism, whether dressed in a Liberal Left or Reactionary Right attire, just as religious fundamentalism is religious fundamentalism irrespective of its Christian, Jewish, or Islamic trappings.

You have simply chosen to filter your perceptions through your own political dogma, as many people on both sides of the aisle often do. However, the reality is that folks of all radical stripes, in all political, religious, social, and philosophical directions, employ similiar methods to achieve their goals, those methods correlating much more strongly to their degree of radicalism and fanaticism than their particular social, political, religious, or philosophical bent.

Re:Again, the Left is inciting violence (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9870150)

how is it that the half of America which owns guns is never the one calling for violence?

You don't consider war violent? I'm pretty sure I know which group of Americans is in favor of killing people. Oh, wait, I mean, "Supporting our Troops" (TM) ClearChannel.

Pretty Decent (1)

bdowne01 (30824) | about 10 years ago | (#9869968)

DC12 was my first DefCon, my only two gripes were the heat (us northerners are wimps) and the chronic lack of seating. It seeed that by Saturday afternoon much of the crowds had subsided, but there were still issues nonetheless. I'll definitely be going back next year with a bigger group.

Possibly one of the highlights was getting pics of Woz and Mitnick standing a few feet apart from each other; with Woz on his Segway. Pretty cool.

um... how little did we learn since 9/11? (3, Insightful)

192939495969798999 (58312) | about 10 years ago | (#9869978)

Yes, I RTFA, and somehow I didn't see much about our intelligence agencies "not learning much since 9/11". I suppose the summary is referring to not hiring crackers that have done illegal stuff, but that's moronic -- if the NSA would reject someone for a job breaking into things BECAUSE they know how to break into things, we are all in big trouble.

Too crowded (2, Informative)

Rorschach1 (174480) | about 10 years ago | (#9870019)

I haven't been to Def Con in a couple of years. I went the first year they were at the Alexis Park, and it was OK. Went back the next year, and they'd clearly outgrown the venue. Wasn't able to get a seat for ANY of the talks.

I don't know if they've signed some sort of long-term contract, or maybe they've just gotten kicked out of everywhere else, but I'm not going back until they get a considerably larger place.

While Priest was only doing his job (1)

NaCh0 (6124) | about 10 years ago | (#9870155)

They should have let that kid get his ass kicked. Braces and all.

Hmm lots of pretending going on (4, Insightful)

gelfling (6534) | about 10 years ago | (#9870169)

I would imagine that people by and large go to DefCon to learn HOW to do something not WHY. There appears to be a lot of faux anarcho posing going on as well as faux Fedcop speak in response.

Only another anarchist or Fedcop would ever think that what an anarchist or Fedcop has to say is remotely interesting. I can't imagine anyone at DefCon suddenly deciding that either breaking thinks is kewl or that diversity of opinion has to be tolerated. Nor would I think that the self professed Grey-Hats are going to come out in favor of the PATRIOT act.

When we all talk to a room full of people who are our clones it's got to get pretty boring.
Load More Comments
Slashdot Login

Need an Account?

Forgot your password?

Submission Text Formatting Tips

We support a small subset of HTML, namely these tags:

  • b
  • i
  • p
  • br
  • a
  • ol
  • ul
  • li
  • dl
  • dt
  • dd
  • em
  • strong
  • tt
  • blockquote
  • div
  • quote
  • ecode

"ecode" can be used for code snippets, for example:

<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>