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Technology Review Profiles Miguel de Icaza

simoniker posted more than 9 years ago | from the de-impressive dept.

GNOME 231

prostoalex writes "Technology Review has a feature story on Miguel de Icaza, currently Novell VP of Product Technology, but more known as the leader of Gnome and Mono projects. Miguel is the man Don Box would like to see joining Microsoft for his "amazing amount of raw energy". If you read through the Technology review article, you will see that de Icaza was actually turned down by Microsoft at some point."

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231 comments

i have (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9885141)

hic cup s.

wow, gentoo is the best (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9885147)

serious queers use kde

But, (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9885164)

Is Miguel de Icaza as bloated as his creations?

Re:But, (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9885236)

Yep, he's pretty lean and mean.

de Icaza is one of THE best coders I've ever met (5, Interesting)

Real Troll Talk (793436) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885166)

I met Miguel, like, back in '98 at a conference in Mexico. Yes, Linux existed there back then!

We chatted and I quickly found he was more than just a Rob Malda or Rusty Foster, guys who talk the talk and get all the fame but can't back it up when it comes to lines of code per hour counts.

Miguel simply AMAZED me with his knowledge and skill. He ever opened up a digital projector and messed with the PROM or jumpers or something and fixed it within 20 minutes, just in time for his talk.

de Icaza is nothing short of amazing. I DO however question his judgement to kind of jump into the MS camp with MONO/.NET emulation, but I know that since he's smarter than me he must be doing the right thing.

Re:de Icaza is one of THE best coders I've ever me (0, Flamebait)

Adolph_Hitler (713286) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885206)



His Microsoft fetish is very suspicious I agree especially considering how much money Microsoft has t o influence open source leaders such as him.

This is why I believe the leadership should be completely decentralized and we should never idolize people like him. He should not be treated any different than any other good coder. Keith Packard is just as smart or maybe smarter, theres people all over the world who do what Miguel does and who produce better code and yet Miguel gets credit for producing stuff nobody cares about like Mono, or producing stuff and not using it or finishing it.

Re:de Icaza is one of THE best coders I've ever me (3, Funny)

g0qi (577105) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885345)

This is why I believe the leadership should be completely decentralized and we should never idolize people like him.

This coming from a guy who's Name is Adolph Hitler (713286) [slashdot.org] .

Re:de Icaza is one of THE best coders I've ever me (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9885360)

"This coming from a guy who's Name is Adolph Hitler"

Could have been worse.

Like Ariel Sharon.

Godwin's Law (1)

Adolph_Hitler (713286) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885397)

I choose the name Adolph Hitler simply to destroy this ridiculous law and to hide behind this ridiculous law to anyone who believes in it.

So please call me a Nazi so I can invoke the awesome power of Godwins Law.

Re:Godwin's Law (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9885419)

Dude, you'd make a horrible Nazi. It's Adolf Hitler.

Ian

Re:Godwin's Law (1)

RWerp (798951) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885456)

I'd prefer to call you just stupid. There are many people out there who'd sooner call themselves Serendipiditus Schtrompf than A. H., and that's because they still remember who this guy really was. Grow up.

Re:Godwin's Law (1)

Tolleman (606762) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885551)

Well he turned out rather evil, but he and his administration realy knew how to manipulate and affect people. Afterall, he wasn't a "dictator" but a elected leader, sure he changed the system when he had won so that he would remain in power, but anyways.

He was a realy evil man and if there was a heaven/hell he should burn in the BBQ for all eternity. However, none can claim that he wasn't a good "politician", even if he was mad.

The other side of the man [www.atmo.se]

Re:Godwin's Law (1)

zaxios (776027) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885839)

Afterall, he wasn't a "dictator" but a elected leader

He wasn't a dictator? I think the most important part of a democracy is the ability to remove its leader.

Re:Godwin's Law (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9886064)

LOL, look at Adolph Hitler's recent submissions. A story by him was accepted but Slashdot editors have chosen to refer to him as "a user".

You give up already? g0qi concedes. (0, Offtopic)

Adolph_Hitler (713286) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885371)


The best you can do is make fun of my name? Maybe that's why I picked out such a name. Maybe I want fools like you who can't win a debate to pick on my name so others can see you give up in public.

It's ok, just admit you don't have an arguement and let it go.

Re:You give up already? g0qi concedes. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9885559)

Maybe you should aim to convince people without giving them the opportunity to pick on your name. If you diminish your credibility, you make it harder on yourself. Say what you want about not wanting to convince people who are blinded by your name; personally, I think it's kind of a cheezy and gimmicky name, which makes me think you aren't that experienced in the real world. Maybe you are -- how you present yourself makes a difference in how much you can convince people, no matter how much you wish ideas were supreme. A lot of the debate on a place like /. hinges on your credibility; there just aren't going to be a lost of posts that go into enough detail to make a serious, thoughtful argument without some assumptions being made. This is, of course, assuming you want to; your choice of name and your post suggest you want to win debates and ego contests rather than agreement.

Re:de Icaza is one of THE best coders I've ever me (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9886053)

Wow, and the grandparent is even called REAL TROLL TALK. Funny how all that can escape you.

Re:de Icaza is one of THE best coders I've ever me (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9885368)

Hahahahahahahahaha you're jealous!

Re:de Icaza is one of THE best coders I've ever me (5, Insightful)

jacoplane (78110) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885395)

These are baseless accusations. I would suggest you keep the conspiracy theories to yourself unless you have some evidence to back them up.

Maybe you are actually someone hired by Microsoft to spread FUD on slashdot!

Miguel's a leader of the community who deserves our respect. I think it's become clear over the years he could have made as much money as he wanted but chose to do what he felt was right.

Maybe I am. (1)

Adolph_Hitler (713286) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885425)


Maybe you are friends with Miguel and you feel insulted. I think we have a right to be critical of a person who puts themselves on the front page of Slashdot.

Duh? How did you expect people to respond? Bow before him and worship his magnificence.

Okay, I'll go build his shrine and then we can all buy his microsoft/mono yinyang necklaces. Er wait you already have that stuff?

Re:de Icaza is one of THE best coders I've ever me (2)

MSFanBoi (695480) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885486)

Yet some people are perfectly willing to idolize Linus, or RMS... So what, he likes SOME stuff Microsoft does. I like SOME stuff Linux does, but you don't see me running out and converting to Linux... The amount of hypocracy is amazing...

Re:de Icaza is one of THE best coders I've ever me (-1, Flamebait)

geomon (78680) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885738)

If the hypocrisy pisses you off so much, why the fuck do you post here?

"All you bad Linux people say nasty things about Microsoft! Whah, whah, whah!!!"

And why do you read threads in linux.slashdot.org?

Hmmm.... Me thinks thou dost protesteth too much.

You're hiding a penguin up your ass, aren't you?

Why do we need to Idolize this guy? (-1, Flamebait)

Adolph_Hitler (713286) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885182)


Why should this guy get an article about how great he is pasted right on the front page of Slashdot?

He's a good programmer, a smart guy, but so are a lot of us and we arent getting front page coverage. Gnome people treat this stuff like its a religion and Miguel with his bogus mono and other projects I disagree with is their christ in the same way that stallman is the GNU christ.

Re:Why do we need to Idolize this guy? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9885201)

You mean like Hitler?

hrm... (4, Insightful)

hot_Karls_bad_cavern (759797) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885202)

i seem to recall a Slashdot sig or two quoting Miguel saying that he was a MS clipy fan.

Many a /.'er would burn at the stake a man who had said so, but think for a sec before torching up those flames, kids.

Clippy might have sucked and annoyed many of you, but think about those moments when grammy was looking about for a movie of the grandkids.

i know, i know...stretch, strech, but ponder for me your grand parents for a sec: what do they read/write/view email with? Yeah, l33tz as you may be, gramps needs some some help from time to time: Gnome does that. Period.

Gripe and bitch on the 'spatial this' and 'spatial that' ...your world is *not* ruined by this man: change your config....ye that bitch and moan how easy it is to twiddle this and that in /etc/here or /etc/there. Yeah, i'm good with that, but gramps is not - what can he use? Gnome. Or Kde.

Save the zealotous mass, either is good, but Clippy has helped many a folk get "email"...your ub3r ass needs to realize these are not the folks that care for or about your sendmail/qmail/rfc gripes....they want the pics of the little grandkids.

Rip on Miguel as you like, but recall, this is a man that wants the linux desktop to prosper, regardless of what fanboy, ub3r wannabies latch on.

Let the quote go....listen to the spirit...you do want me to listen to the open source spirit don't you?

Who cares? (1)

Adolph_Hitler (713286) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885217)

Who cares what OS this man uses?

What use is this superficial knowledge? Read his code and learn, then replace him and make something better than Mono.

Otherwise its pointless to study him. Miguel is just a programmer.

Re:hrm... (4, Interesting)

Erwos (553607) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885254)

I think the most interesting part of the article was near the beginning, where it described him as being both idealistic and pragmatic. That's exactly the kind of person we need promoting Free software.

RMS was both at the start of his career - and, interestingly, he started fading out when he seemed to have lost the pragmatism (GNU/Linux, Hurd, etc.). Hopefully Miguel will avoid making a similar mistake.

To me, at least, it seems like he's got the world's best job: get paid to produce Free software. Not a bad gig.

-Erwos

You can't be both. (1)

Adolph_Hitler (713286) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885267)


We need both types of people in the movement, but we do not need the leaders of the movement to be confused about what side they are on. Richard Stallman already provides the idealist leadership, but come on can you say Miguel even knows what side hes on? If Microsoft hired him he'd be working there. I don't really like the idea of the Linux movement being bought out by Microsoft.

Re:You can't be both. (1)

0racle (667029) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885308)

Miguel is not the 'Linux movement', hes not even Gnome anymore. He could be hired by anyone or drop off the face of the earth and everything would continue just fine. Any movement that is based on a single mans ideas or ideals is going to fade out naturally anyway.

Miguel was Gnome until recently. (3, Insightful)

Adolph_Hitler (713286) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885338)

The fork only just happened recently. Miguel did try to pump mono into Gnome and I'm sure he will release a ruined Microsofty version of Gnome at some point.

The man is founder of Gnome and his claim to fame was dissing KDE for not having the right ideals. Now its time to diss Miguel for doing something which is even more threatening than using the QT license.

Re:Miguel was Gnome until recently. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9885979)

FUCK.

And I just lost my mod points too. This man speaketh the truth people.

Re:You can't be both. (1)

Erwos (553607) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885313)

"If Microsoft hired him he'd be working there."

That is your conjecture, and it's not at all supported by the article. The article talks about how Miguel lectured Microsoft about FOSS at his interview. If Miguel was working at Microsoft, it would seem to me that he'd only be doing it because he could write Free software.

-Erwos

Re:You can't be both. (0, Troll)

Adolph_Hitler (713286) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885354)

Maybe he isnt working for them and just wants to. Think about what it would do for a persons resume to have Microsoft on it.

He is a smart guy so its not beyond his reasoning to see he has potential to cash out and get rich or stay true to his roots and have our respect. Why shouldnt he get rich?

Re:You can't be both. (4, Informative)

JanneM (7445) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885327)

[...] de Icaza took the interview as an opportunity to lecture managers on why Microsoft should abandon its multibillion-dollar business model and embrace open-source programming. Not surprisingly, de Icaza wasn't hired.

The blurb here makes it sound like he was begging on his knees for them to take him on. Not quite what the article describes. He's not the least "confused on what side he's on".

Re:hrm... (5, Insightful)

Teckla (630646) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885292)

Rip on Miguel as you like, but recall, this is a man that wants the linux desktop to prosper, regardless of what fanboy, ub3r wannabies latch on.

I have no desire to rip on Miguel; however, I think Miguel may have underestimated Microsoft.

My opinion is that .NET is a trojan horse: The "best" and "most up-to-date" implementation will always be on Windows, which will give Microsoft a great deal of marketing strength, even if Mono can run a large number of .NET applications (which seems a long ways off: Windows.Forms isn't "standardized" by ECMA, and it's very Windows-centric. Mono needs Windows.Forms in order to run GUI-based .NET applications).

And if the Linux/Mono combo ever becomes a serious threat, Microsoft can just beat Mono into submission with a fist full of patents.

Even though Java is proprietary, Sun has bent over backwards for years to get the community involved and keep the community involved. The ubiquity, robustness, and maturity of the Java Virtual Machine makes Java ready right now for what Mono may be ready for some day.

Don't be paranoid, but at the same time, don't dismiss Microsoft's pattern of abusive behavior over the years. Before you commit to Mono, think through all the alternatives first, and be sure you're not opening the city gates for a trojan horse.

Re:hrm... (3, Insightful)

njcoder (657816) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885398)

I couldn't agree more.

I always wonder what's going on with Microsoft and Mono. I don't think it's any secret that Miguel is pretty enamoured by MS. Microsoft has said some pretty nice things about him too. I know MS seems to be changing a little bit to not be quite the evil empire it was, or at least that's the perception their trying so hard to make, but.... You've seen the movies where one of the cool kids asks some homely, nerdy girl to the prom, only to find out it was some big joke at the end. If I was Miguel, I wouldn't spend too much on a dress.

Re:hrm... (1)

RWerp (798951) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885430)

You've seen the movies where one of the cool kids asks some homely, nerdy girl to the prom, only to find out it was some big joke at the end.

It usually ends pretty bad for the cool kids.

Re:hrm... (1, Insightful)

hunterx11 (778171) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885654)

No...the cool kid gets to like to nerdy girl, but then she learns it was a joke and blows him off. But then realizes how shallow he was and turns a new leaf and gets her back. Also he breaks up with his stupid cool friends who get totally burned for being stupid. Also it turns out the nerdy girl is hot but nobody realized because somehow movie stars are only hot if they aren't wearning glasses.

Re:hrm... (1)

acebone (94535) | more than 9 years ago | (#9886025)

Yeah - I've seen that film, it's really a moving story. It really shows that it's ok to have out-of-fashion clothes as long as you look good. Not many people think about that but it's true !

Hold on thar, city boy! (1)

mosel-saar-ruwer (732341) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885496)


I think Miguel may have underestimated Microsoft.

That would be MIS-underestimated.

Re:Hold on thar, city boy! (1)

The boojum (70419) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885881)

No, I think that would be MS -underestimated.

Re:hrm... (1, Informative)

k98sven (324383) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885776)

The "best" and "most up-to-date" implementation will always be on Windows

Yes. But face it: .NET apps are being written. People are using it. It's not like it's going to just go away if you ignore it. Being "up-to-date" isn't really a big deal either. People don't want to code for a moving target. Platforms reach a certain level of maturity which most people are satisfied with, (Java 1.1 to 1.2 was a big jump, and 1.4 to 1.5 "5" is another one, but between there the differences weren't so big) and that's all you need to keep up with.

Windows.Forms isn't "standardized" by ECMA, and it's very Windows-centric. Mono needs Windows.Forms in order to run GUI-based .NET applications

Not quite correct. You can make GUI-based .NET apps using other libraries than WinForms, such as GTK# [sourceforge.net] , which in fact is what the Mono crew officially recommends.

Even though Java is proprietary, Sun has bent over backwards for years to get the community involved and keep the community involved.

I'd say they've done a lousy job, from the OSS community standpoint. There is no good free implementation of Java yet. Because Sun is possesive when it comes to Java. NOT because of forking or anything like that.

If Sun was scared of forking, they'd make the Java Compatibility Kit freely available. It costs thousands of dollars, terms that no OSS developer could possibly agree to. Sure Sun wants a community, but only on their terms. Sure they're far better than MS, but they're not 'bending over backwards' either.

Re:hrm... (1)

Brandybuck (704397) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885903)

Yes. But face it: .NET apps are being written. People are using it.

And people are also using Windows, eating McDonald's hamburgers, and driving Fords. That doesn't mean that I have to as well.

There is a need for Mono, simply because there will always be stupid ass PHBs who believe the Microsoft promises. But we don't have to drink the Microsoft Kool-Aid.

Re:hrm... (1)

aldoman (670791) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885797)

Blah blah blah. C# and .NET is the best dev solution for doing quick GUI apps. To me, it's like the PHP of GUI development.

The opensource community hasn't the resources to put out a dev enviroment nor langugae like C#/VS.NET (I'm sure 1,000+ people at MS are full time on it).

Quite frankly the opensource community hasn't came up with anything as quick and as newbie-friendly as Visual Basic. It needs dev enviroments like this to thrive - look at PHP and mySQL. It now has the domanince over the small to medium web app now. It's on a roll because of the amount of scripts out there and the great documentation which just results in... more scripts and better documentation.

I also think you overestimate MS here by thinking they have a whole trojan horse plot to kill off open source. I think they know if they don't kill it off this time, it will just come back over and over. OSS isn't something you can kill by throwing loads of money at it.

Oh BTW, the new MSN Web Messenger (http://webmessenger.msn.com) offically supports Mozilla 1.6. Is this a leap forward?

Re:hrm... (5, Informative)

miguel (7116) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885867)

That is why Mono implements two stacks:

http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/tmp/two-stack s. png

One is the Microsoft compatible one.

The other one is where we are pouring our energies:
An ECMA core with the following on top:

  • Gtk# to build GUI applications.
  • Simias: to write collaborative applications.
  • iFolder: to synchronize your file system and integrate into your high-end applications.
  • Beagle: a platform to provide searching and contextual information at any moment.
  • Novell.Ldap: Focus on open standards for directory services.
  • Mono.Data.*: The API to access open source databases.
  • RelaxNG: Microsoft likes XmlSchema, it is older, but RelaxNG is cleaner and simpler, and we have a stack to use it.
  • IKVM: We integrated natively with Java.
  • IronPython: we can run your Python code.
  • Cairo bindings: to provider advanced rendering.
  • Tao: OpenGL/SDL APIs for your applications.
  • Gconf#/Dbus#: APIs to access the configuration and bus systems on modern desktops.
  • Gecko# to integrate Mozilla into your apps.


There are quite a few of other open source stacks
for the ECMA CLI today that range from research
to practically useful.

Miguel.

Re:hrm... (1)

acebone (94535) | more than 9 years ago | (#9886047)

Looks impressive - but will .NET apps using WinForms run on .Mono without changing the code ?

Re:hrm... (4, Informative)

miguel (7116) | more than 9 years ago | (#9886081)

No, today we do not have Windows.Forms implemented
(I should update that graph with the latest version
where we point that out).

Windows.Forms will be available in a few months.

Novell. Energy. (3, Insightful)

Chuck Chunder (21021) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885873)

I think it's worth pointing out that Novell are unlikely to have taken such a keen interest and involvement (and ownership) in Mono without a reasonable degree of risk and legal analysis. That doesn't mean we are 'safe' but it should put some perspective on the level of fear that some people seem to have.

Microsoft are certainly a competitor but the open source community will only be doing itself a disservice if fear of what Microsoft might do is an overriding principle. If you want to avoid treading on Microsofts toes you may as well just give up now.

If they want to control something they should be made to fight for it.

For me it is difficult to put my finger on exactly what has hampered Java's uptake in the general open source community. Java certainly has an open source community (as is evident from Apache projects etc) but it seems almost completely disconnected from the general open source community.

In part it must come down to Sun. It seems insane to me that sheer force of enthusiasm seems to striding towards making Mono an attractive and viable platform for GNOME/GTK development while years of Sun involvement in that project has done no such thing for Java. Quite a lot of posts say "Why not Java?" as an alternative for GNOME. I wonder the same thing, there just doesn't seem to be any energy for it. It's ludicrous to think that some sort of epiphany is going to suddenly divert Miguel or Novells energy towards Java. That energy will have to come from somewhere else. Simply standing there and saying "Look, Java!" isn't going to get anyone anywhere.

Driving users to windows, where the tools are best (3, Insightful)

acomj (20611) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885891)

Mod me a flamebait, but I feel Mono is just driving users to windows where the best development tools are.

Development tools are one of microsoft stronger suits. Its going to be hard to get development tools that good for linux, so in the end more users will end up developing on windows.

I looked at mono for development, and ended up at java/eclipse. Eclipse is one of the most impresive open source projects since apache. I wish sun was more open and every linux distro would come with java preinstalled.

You can't win with either java or mono(c#).. Maybe its time ffor python/perl/php/ruby.....

Re:hrm... (1)

Sponge Bath (413667) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885311)

...MS clipy fan.

Microsoft is such a thieving monopoly, they wouldn't even cough up an extra p.
Damn you Bill Gates!

Re:hrm... (-1, Troll)

Brandybuck (704397) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885864)

Rip on Miguel as you like, but recall, this is a man that wants the linux desktop to prosper, regardless of what fanboy, ub3r wannabies latch on.

Praise Miguel as much as you like, but recall that this is a man who once worked within the cloistered walls of Microsoft. That was where he was trained, nurtured and imprinted.

Miguel's great, but... (5, Interesting)

mechsoph (716782) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885214)

I'd like to thank Miguel for his contributions. I'm a gnome user, and it is quite nice. What I don't get though, is why he seems absolutely fascinated with the boys in redmond. He reimplements Outlook, and now he's reimplimenting their reimplimentation of Java. Why not get behind an OSS implementation of the original ala kaffe or gcj, or push the OSS own Parrot?

Ah because hes paid to? (-1, Troll)

Adolph_Hitler (713286) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885229)

For all we know he could own Microsoft stock. This guy could have friends who work there, or people who pay him to help Microsoft and Open Source remain somewhat compatible so that when the time is right Microsoft can decide to release Microsoft Linux and Miguel can then be hired in a high position.

Re:Miguel's great, but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9885238)

because Parrot is a VM for dynamic languages and the JAVA VM was built around JAVA.

Miguel has told you why (0, Troll)

Real Troll Talk (793436) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885242)

He's probably sick of answering it to, so I'll post here so he doesn't have to.

Why don't you use Java? After all, there are many languages that target the Java VM.

You basically asked WHY NOT USE JAVA? Java is USED BY EVERYONE.

Well, you CAN can get very good tools for doing Java development on free systems right now. Red Hat has contributed a GCC front-end for Java that can take Java sources or Java byte codes and generate native executables; Transvirtual implemented Kaffe a JIT engine for Java; Intel also has a Java VM called ORP.

Unfortunately, the JVM is not designed to be a general purpose virtual machine. The Common Intermediate Language (CIL), on the other hand, is designed to be a target for a wide variety of programming languages, and has a set of rules designed to be optimal for JITers.

Why not extend Java? (0, Troll)

Adolph_Hitler (713286) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885286)



We don't need Mono, and even if we did need something like Mono why do we care if its perfectly compatible with Microsofts version? Should we be aiming for compatibility or something thats a generation ahead of what Microsoft is doing?

Compatibility is BS, if you have better software it beats compatibility 90% of the time. I'd prefer better software.

Re:Why not extend Java? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9885304)

you can't extend Java, thats part of the agreement with Sun (you could if they ever opened JAVA up)

Re:Why not extend Java? (1)

mindfucker (778407) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885412)

God you're an idiot.

Who doesn't need mono? You? You are not the world.

There is going to be an increasingly large amount of ISVs in the future who will want to achieve cross-platform compatibility, and Mono is going to be one of their options, just like Java is right now. Look at eclipse, for example.

Re:Why not extend Java? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9886012)

Compatibility is BS, if you have better software it beats compatibility 90% of the time. I'd prefer better software.

Which is why the Linux kernel works so hard to be POSIX compliant. Samba is one of the most successful OSS projects around. And openoffice is the only usable office suite...

Re:Miguel has told you why (3, Insightful)

abigor (540274) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885441)

Yeah, but a common complaint of CIL-based languages is that they all look suspiciously like C# in the end. Since I've never written Smalltalk et al. for .NET, I don't know, but it's certainly the case that the only widespread languages in use for the CLR are C# and VB.NET, so the multiple languages thing seems like a bit of a lame duck.

However, Python, which bears little resemblance to Java, runs very nicely on the JVM thanks to the Jython project, and can import and use Java's class libraries and so forth. So maybe the JVM (and Java byte code) is more generalised than you thought.

Re:Miguel has told you why (2, Interesting)

HeelToe (615905) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885536)

I was at the Burton Group conference where Miguel de Icaza, John Montgomery, and Graham Hamilton participated in a forum discussion.

I mentioned how prolific scripting languages had become, that some very large and revenue-generating systems were built on scripting languages. I asked given the industry-wide move toward virtual machines, what each of their products would be doing to facilitate scripting languages targeting the VMs.

John Montgomery admitted that the CLR did not really handle dynamically typed scripting langauges very well. Graham Hamilton did not say the same thing about the JVM, but did mention they were working on getting the JVM into better shape to be able to allow dynamically typed scripting languages more ease of integration.

Re:Miguel has told you why (2, Informative)

Kluge66 (801510) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885574)

Python, which also bears little resemblance to C#, also appears to run very nicely on .NET and pretty well on Mono. http://ironpython.com/ [ironpython.com] . While they aren't all open source, there are also many other languages with compilers directed at the CLI: http://www.gotdotnet.com/team/lang/ [gotdotnet.com] .

Finally, there seems to be no reason to suppose that Java is somehow more flexible than .NET because Java can be run on Mono via the IKVM project http://www.ikvm.net/ [ikvm.net] .

I'm not advocating the use of Mono (and I'm certainly not advocating the use of Windows), but arguments against it should be technically correct.

Kluge

Python (2, Informative)

gredman (665454) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885577)

Ahem... [ironpython.com]

Re:Miguel has told you why (4, Informative)

miguel (7116) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885652)

Some languages map very nicely to the JVM or the CLR
(the same developer that did Jython now has
a very fast implementation called IronPython that
was unveiled and demostrated at OSCON).

The problem is with languages that require pointers:
Fortran, C, C++ and some extra support is convenient
for some functional languages that the CLR
provides.

I mean, nothing really ground breaking, but the
CLR had a chance to learn from Java's limitations.

The new MS C++ compiler generates pure CIL executables
when using the /clr flag which is a very convenient
way of integrating existing C/C++ codebases with
managed codebases.

Miguel.

Re:Miguel has told you why (1)

TrixX (187353) | more than 9 years ago | (#9886027)

SmartEiffel [loria.fr] (the GNU Eiffel compiler) is also able to compile to JVM bytecode (besides its more usual mode, which produces C code).

Re:Miguel's great, but... (2, Interesting)

ebassi (591699) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885291)

In my strictly personal opinion, Miguel fell in love with the .Net framework - almost literally. It's never a good thing when a programmer falls in love with a tool: he'll try to make everything work with that tool, even if it's not the right one, or if there already is an implementation based on something else. You know, the hammer/nail thing...

Not that choice is bad: I do prefer two or more similar implementations of an idea, in order to chose for the best one.

Re:Miguel's great, but... (4, Insightful)

Erwos (553607) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885300)

"now he's reimplimenting their reimplimentation of Java"

You know, it's not like FOSS programmers just allot time to whatever the masses care about. They program to scratch their itches - and Java is obviously not Miguel's itch.

Don't view Mono as time taken away from kaffe/gcj/Parrot, because chances are, the time put into Mono wouldn't have gone into any of those.

-Erwos

Re:Miguel's great, but... (1)

truth_revealed (593493) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885417)

Why not get behind an OSS implementation of the original ala kaffe or gcj, or push the OSS own Parrot?

Here's [google.com] why [ximian.com] .

"I do not like Parrot" [ximian.com] (second paragraph after OSCON subtitle)
-Miguel

Whats better about Java? (4, Insightful)

brunes69 (86786) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885450)

Why do so many people around here seem to think that Java is more free than .Net? This is far from true.

Java is just as patent-encumbered [sun.com] as .Net is. Hell, Sun sued *Microsoft* over some Java patents shortly ago. Who is to say they wouldn't do the same to gcj if it served their interests?

In fact, it is argueable that it is moreso since a single, commercial body controls it (Sub) whereas with .Net at least you have a standards body (ECMA) who has ratified the spec, which means that an independant implementation of the spec API (Mono) is less likely to have problems than an independant implimentation of the Java API.

The reality is that everyone is against .Net soley because it is made by MS. Yay for groupthink!.

Re:Whats better about Java? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9885480)

Thanks for spelling out the dimwitted thinking that seems to afflict some members of the open source community on this subject.

First, understanding.
Then, a cure.

Re:Whats better about Java? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9885556)

Hell, Sun sued *Microsoft* over some Java patents shortly ago.

I believe that statement is false. the lawsuit was about violating contract agreement. when they started adding their own non-standard stuff, it violated the contract. nothing about patents. I could be wrong. If I am wrong, please provide the link proving it.

Re:Whats better about Java? (1)

brunes69 (86786) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885680)

http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104_2-5188012.html [com.com]

I googled for "Sun microsoft patents". First hit.

You should probaby look at this as well:

http://meh.ogreboy.org/google.gif [ogreboy.org]

Re:Whats better about Java? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9885707)

You should probaby look at this as well Maybe you should read the links you post before you post them too. This was an agreement not Microsoft being sued by Sun

Re:Whats better about Java? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9885869)

It's hard to tell exactly what that patent agreement is about. the anti-trust is the one most people are aware of. Anyone have more details about the exact nature of that settlement. most of the articles are a bit vague and lacking in detail.

Re:Whats better about Java? (1)

f00zbll (526151) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885578)

Why do so many people around here seem to think that Java is more free than .Net? This is far from true.

that's a fair question. I would say, look at apache, eclipse and codehouse for an example. Sun has donated a ton of code to apache and so has IBM. they didn't have to and didn't really need to. Sure Sun has been a dork in the past, like when they took blackdown and released it. Technically, they were allowed to do it. It was bad etiquette and really pissed off the blackdown developers. Sun is by no means perfect, but the java community for now is far ahead of the Open Source C# community. Just compare JBoss to the .NET stack and you'll see why the OSS java stack is better. but if you took time to read up and gain knowledge in both areas, you would already know that.

Re:Whats better about Java? (1)

brunes69 (86786) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885665)

You make valid points on the maturity of existing Java applications. However this has *absolutely nothing* to do with the degree of freedom of the language and runtime itself.

The main argument people seem to use against .Net is always that it is not free/patent encumbered (see the grandparent comment). My point is that Java is just as bad, if not worse, so using that as an argument for Java is silly and baseless.

Aside from that, you can't really compare the JBoss/Tomcat servlet containers to .Net because it is comparing apples and oranges, the .Net model for that type of service is quite different. While Java doe shave some advantages, .Net has its own as well, and I must say i really do not like some of the avenues Java is going down with stuff like templates.

Re:Whats better about Java? (1)

Augusto (12068) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885909)

> Aside from that, you can't really compare the JBoss/Tomcat servlet containers to .Net because it is comparing apples and oranges,

Let's compare apples to apples, let's talk about application servers.

J2EE is an appserver standard with multiple implementations, from open source ones to very expensive containers.

What's the standard for the .net "appserver"? What's the equivalent of a JCP / JSR in the .net world? How does the community drive the components and standards that go into .net?

Re:Whats better about Java? (2, Interesting)

f00zbll (526151) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885917)

The main argument people seem to use against .Net is always that it is not free/patent encumbered (see the grandparent comment). My point is that Java is just as bad, if not worse, so using that as an argument for Java is silly and baseless.

absolutely agree on that point. If that is the primary concern for someone, then they should use perl, parrot or python. The comparison is apples to oranges, but the type of services is not that different. Both currently support webservices, a framework to build dynamic pages, database connections, templating, xml, and all the other fancy doodads. I'm definitely biased, but I have no problems with too many options in the Java OSS stack. It's not really one stack per say, more like a ton of stacks that are very similar and yet different.

Unlike some developers, I don't expect someone to hand feed me and I expect that I will have to take time to study and understand what each approach solves and how it fails. What I don't like is that for most of the work I have to do, .NET currently doesn't provide the features I need. In fact, the current project I am on, 80-90% of the code has been building new functionality missing from the .NET stack. Those features are availabe in the Java OSS stack and considerably more robust and mature. Even though I've tried to educate the developers at work and suggest they port apache stuff to .NET they stick to the MS stuff. The end result is the stuff doesn't work. Now obviously, that is not Microsoft's fault and is strictly the result of incompetent developers.

From my own experience, the quality of "real senior developers" in the Java OSS world is an order of magnitude better than the typical .NET senior developer. But that's my experience and isn't necessarily representative of reality. Also, of the senior java developers I've know, a large percentage of them have written compilers and have a good understanding of low level details. In comparison, of the 30 or so .NET developers I work with currently, none of that have that knowledge. If I consider the microsoft developers I've worked with or have known first hand the last 5 years, none of them had the expertise.

Re:Whats better about Java? (1)

Augusto (12068) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885922)

Forgot to add a minor nitpick ...

> JBoss/Tomcat servlet

You probably already know this, but JBoss is way way way more than a servlet container.

Re:Whats better about Java? (2, Insightful)

plierhead (570797) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885962)

Why do so many people around here seem to think that Java is more free than .Net? This is far from true.

This academic argument gets trotted out over and over again, and its just as unconvincing every time.

Back here in the real world, where MS holds sway, the way things go is that if you write your code to run on an MS platform, then every single time someone runs it, MS's cash register gives out a big KA-CHIIING !!!!

But if you write it to run on Java, then that does not have to happen. It may do, but people have options.

So respectfully, Java is way, way more free than .Net.

Re:Whats better about Java? (4, Insightful)

abulafia (7826) | more than 9 years ago | (#9886042)

First, let me say that I hate Java, with a passion, as a language. The bugs, behavioural oddity, and general shoddy crap one has to put up with in a "modern" language that is supposed to have support for all the neat new bells and whistles appalls me. Also, I'll say I like Perl. There, that should have cut down on most of the readership...

Java is just as patent-encumbered as .Net is. Hell, Sun sued *Microsoft* over some Java patents shortly ago. Who is to say they wouldn't do the same to gcj if it served their interests?

You have a nice bundle of assumptions there, but when picked apart, they don't hold.

  • patents. Yes, I believe Sun owns some, and Microsoft also owns some. A significant difference is that (a) Sun has a history of promoting open standards whereas Microsoft has a history of abusing them, and (b) Sun has no stated plan to extract growth via patents, whereas Microsoft does, and is clearly actively persuing those plans. Any large company that didn't hold a portfolio would not exist as a large company, and any company that wants to do something like Java would do well to defend it. Acting shocked that Sun is protecting a 10 year development and branding effort is either naive or disingenuous.
  • Sun sued Microsoft over a contract dispute, not a patent dispute. I know many slashot denizens are not aware of the difference, but there is one, much like the difference between cows and rats - they're both mammals as opposed to reptiles (legal disputes vs. cameros and baseball bats), but you woudn't want to milk the wrong one. I'll be generous and assume you don't know the difference.
  • Raising the spectre of the fact that someone with a history of open sharing might someday sue someone else as a defense of a monopolist who is going on an intellectual property hording rampage puts you in company with such staunch innovationists as Jack "VCRs are the Boston Stranger" Valenti. Is that really a point you'd like to push on with?
Attempting to dress dot-net up as something that will be a vibrant, open platform (one that thrives with or without Microsoft) is silly. Everyone knows it isn't. If sun dies tomorrow, Java will live on -- just look at it. I hope that Miguel knows what he is doing, and if he doesn't, fails to distract too many people. Java has warts, plenty of them. It works for many people, and the fact that dot-net is such a big talking-point is a great confirmation of this fact- why would MSFT bother if they had the market sewn up like they do with IE?

Just an addendum...

For my part, I do Java when I have to, and Perl the rest of the time. (C for interfacing with DBs, modifying code, whatever.) Perl's absolutely the best kept secret of development. I have Perl running in a couple top-100 sites. and many more instances elsewhere. Ask Amazon (I mention them because I've never done any work for them, and they use Perl -- HTML::Mason, actually). Desktop Perl is getting traction, too, lately... I built a Windows installer for a Perl desktop app the other day that, so far, the client is thrilled with. I expect this to be cheap growth for my company. So, from my perspective, please - keep writing PHP and VB. Please make my consulting gigs that much easier to land! The gaggles of people who hate Perl are my company's best competitve advantage.

Re:Whats better about Java? (3, Insightful)

Yaztromo (655250) | more than 9 years ago | (#9886087)

Why do so many people around here seem to think that Java is more free than .Net? This is far from true.

Java is just as patent-encumbered as .Net is. Hell, Sun sued *Microsoft* over some Java patents shortly ago. Who is to say they wouldn't do the same to gcj if it served their interests?

The difference is that Sun has generally played nice with others, wheras this is a rarity with Microsoft, who have a history of stabbing its own partners in the back when it suits them to do so.

Sun isn't in a monopoly position. Sun is practially forced to play nice with Java, because if it doesn't then Java developers will simply go elsewhere (don't forget, Sun has licensed their code and specifications to a number of other companies).

Microsoft, on the other hand, does have a monopoly on the underlying operating system that .NET is targeted towards, and they can (and in the past routinely have) played bait-and-switch by changing APIs mid-game just to prevent compatible versions from other companies (think Windows 3.1 errors when run on DR-DOS, constantly changing Win32s only to break Win32s applications from running on OS/2, and Microsoft's contract violations in modifying their Java implementation to prevent Java apps written on Windows from running correctly (or at all) on other platforms). They can afford to play "screw the developer", because they know most applications developers are trying to target Windows. Do it the Microsoft way, or get locked outt of the vast majority of systems.

And don't think for a minute that ECMA ratification of the language syntax is any saving grace. Microsoft can break that specification whenever they want to, with the only detriment to them being they can no longer claim to be standards compliant. Considering how often Microsoft has been willing to break standards to suit their own needs, I certainly wouldn't hold on to any sense of security just because the ECMA has ratified a standard. If Microsoft breaks that standard and stops claiming its .Net complies with the ECMA standard, every implementation that does comply with the standard will be hosed.

Sun doesn't have the same luxury. It wouldn't make any sense for them to go around breaking licensed implementations of Java, as it would only hurt themselves. Sun doesn't control all the underlying Operating Systems that Java runs on, so they don't have the same monopoly power. Sun needs to be on the ggood side of its developers, as it's the developers (and not the users) that make Java a popular platform. Users make Windows a popular platform (or, more correctly user ignorance), and if you're trying to target those users, you have to dance to whatever tune Microsoft decides to play.

Java may not be free, but you're not selling your soul to the devil by developing against it.

Yaz.

Probably because C# is superior to Java (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9885488)

Microsoft simply has a better product. It would be foolish to choose an inferior product when a better one is available. Unfortunately, most open source people are too blinded by their hatred of Microsoft to think rationally about this.

and I could get.... (1)

zogger (617870) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885715)

... a MUCH better deal on my next box and Tv if I bought it from some crackheads out the back of a van someplace with no paperwork for cash. The thing is, why would I want to do that?

Some folks don't want to deal with MS in any manner from a very simple easy to understand concept --> THEY ARE CROOKS AND NOT NICE PEOPLE AND THEY WILL STAB YOU IN THE BACK EVENTUALLY.

Other people think it's OK,so that's their lookout then.

There's an old saying that fits "lie down with dogs, wake up with fleas".

Have fun scratching!

Re:Miguel's great, but... (0, Troll)

Brandybuck (704397) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885916)

Because he was raised, trained, fostered and imprinted at Microsoft. Yes, he is an ex-Microsoft employee. People seem to forget this. His vision for you is Microsoft technology in all its "glory", but without the Microsoft name behind it.

For me, I can't wait for Java to get open sourced, or parrot to be finished. Both look likely within the next year.

Miguel is DA MAN (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9885232)

Miguel is a great guy and a very intelligent insider in the industry. I am with 'im.

Name One Person Who Has Done More Damage To Linux (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9885316)

Feel free to name someone from Microsoft, SCO, paid for think tanks.

Anyone.

And the damage to Linux from Mono hasn't even started yet.

The Linux crowd has some insane desire to continue to shoot themselves in the foot.

TR and Miguel? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9885384)

What's up with Technology Review and de Icaza? They've been utterly obsessed with him for years!

Anyone (MIT-connected, perhaps?) know what the deal is? Is it just a GNOME superfan who works for them or something more complicated?

Why he is important (5, Insightful)

babasyzygy (786926) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885402)

A lot of people denigrate Miguel as being a "Microsoft fan."

That's not fair. What he is, is a realist. The fact is that as long as Microsoft has a vast majority of the desktops out there, any competing system has a choice: between creating their own 31337 world where only the initiated may play, or instead creating systems that work and play well with others. By paying close attention to what system and paradigms users are used to - that is to say, that Microsoft ships - Miguel helps furhter the rapid adoption of Linux as a viable Windows alternative.

Why he is imporant is not just that he realizes this, but that he does something about it. Real hackers write code for their beliefs, as he does.

Why he is important-Tailight chaser. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9885506)

"A lot of people denigrate Miguel as being a "Microsoft fan."

Somehow a phrase comes in from the past. "Chasing Tailights" comes to mind. The other is "Bandwagoning".

"That's not fair. What he is, is a realist. The fact is that as long as Microsoft has a vast majority of the desktops out there, any competing system has a choice: between creating their own 31337 world where only the initiated may play, or instead creating systems that work and play well with others. By paying close attention to what system and paradigms users are used to - that is to say, that Microsoft ships - Miguel helps furhter the rapid adoption of Linux as a viable Windows alternative. "

The bad thing for your argument is Apple Computers. Apple computers sets those paradigims you're so proud of. Why isn't Miguel following them? Apple's play better with Windows and Linux. Why isn't Miguel following Apple? Apple's world is no more "31337 " than the PC, for the entrance fee's the same for both. Why isn't Miguel using an Mac? So what argument's left? Money? Combine Apple's paradigm's with linux's low cost, on cheap PC's and there's no reason left for your "realist" not to follow Apple?

Re:Why he is important-Tailight chaser. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9885673)

Gnome rips off stuff from Apple too not just Microsoft!

Re:Why he is important (2, Interesting)

Brandybuck (704397) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885959)

It doesn't matter how much code Miguel writes. What matters is if it the right code. It probably is the right code for Microsoft, because imitation is still the sincerest form of flattery. But I am still not convinced that it's the right code for Unix. Microsoft may have the vast majority of desktops, but Mono will do nothing about that, because those desktops will still be Windows, and they'll still be running .NET code.

MDI is real (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9885479)

I admire his energy, conviction and programming skills, but he is much too naive. I believe his intentions are genuine, but he's just too wrapped up in love of .NET to see the sand trap he is sinking into. Again, it's not a matter of "if" Microsoft bites back. It's just a matter of time.

Thank You miguel! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9885541)

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1631172,00.as p

All the good work people have done over the years in making Linux and the software that runs on it a viable alternative to the garbage crapped out by the retards from redmond is going to waste because this dumb little clown decides to throw a tantrum and go and create a competing desktop environment.

Way to go idiot.

In 2004 instead of stories about replacing legacy Microsoft systems with Linux, we get articles outlaying desktop wars.

Way to go!

Bravo, Miguel (3, Insightful)

rnd() (118781) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885616)

Miguel is working on one of the most important and exciting projects in the software world. Regardless of what Novell does or doesn't do with Mono, it will still be open source, and it will forever alter the competetive landscape (by increasing competition for Microsoft).

Missing the point (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9885749)

He's been accused of betraying the open-source dream, but Ximian cofounder Miguel de Icaza believes corporate partnerships are the best way to realize it.

This isn't the problem-- this isn't what people are contesting. The problem with Mono is that there is no partnership with Microsoft. Microsoft serves Microsoft and only Microsoft. Anyone who "allies" with Microsoft in any way is just setting themselves up to be horribly screwed the instant Microsoft begins to see them as a threat. Look at Microsoft's "business partners" of the past and you'll see that Microsoft used every one of them like cheap whores and then left them by the curbside to die.

But you have to sell something eventually (1, Insightful)

geomon (78680) | more than 9 years ago | (#9885793)

I'm not sure that Miguel is up to the challenge. He can coast on his reputations only so long and then he will have to actually sell a product to a mass market.

That is when the rubber meets the road. And by the looks of his efforts, he will have a long row to hoe.

I've been on the receiving end of his marketing push and I am stunningly unimpressed. A person of his standing in the open source community could pack a room of eager buyers, and it did, but when you don't show for the meeting all that goodwill and reputation is gone.

I know it wasn't Miguel who failed to show, but the company he led arranged for someone from senior management to show for a sales meeting. They canceled the meeting with no warning. That reflects poorly on his (former) company and its management.

Now that they have been consumed by Novel, one would think that they would be interested in following up on that previous sales event to attempt to repair their damaged reputation. Not a word has arrived from Novel's corporate headquarters.

I guess we will just continue buying our Linux software and services from Red Hat.

GNOME Innovation (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#9885920)

De Icaza was named TR100 Innovator of the Year by Technology Review in 1999.
Can someone explain to me why he got an innovation award for copying windows?

It well known that microsoft does not innovate. If De Icaza copies from microsoft, how does he innovate, given that the ideas are now at least 3 implementations old?

Thanks in advance.

Wrong tactic? (4, Funny)

shadowmatter (734276) | more than 9 years ago | (#9886075)

Microsoft software architect Don Box even wrote a song imploring de Icaza to join the company and sang it to him in front of a large audience at a party late last year.

Maybe they should have just used a stunt by Steve Ballmer instead?

Steve (onstage): "Miguel, you're a great developer... DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!"

- sm
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