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Cooling Toronto Using Lake Ontario

michael posted about 10 years ago | from the cool-running dept.

Science 698

An anonymous reader writes "Air cooled by the frigid waters deep in Lake Ontario started bringing relief to buildings in downtown Toronto on Tuesday after the valves were symbolically opened on the multi-million-dollar project. The company says that they have the capacity to air condition 100 office buildings or 8,000 homes - the equivalent of 32 million square feet of building space. They note that the cooling system reduces energy usage, freeing up megawatts from the Ontario's electrical grid, minimizes ozone-depleting refrigerants and reduces the amount of carbon dioxide entering the air."

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fp dickhead (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9999204)

yes i'm talking to you

Environmental effects (5, Insightful)

jonbryce (703250) | about 10 years ago | (#9999207)

Will this not cause the lake to warm up? What are the envirnmental effects of this? Have they been considered?

I was going to ask about that... (5, Funny)

PedanticSpellingTrol (746300) | about 10 years ago | (#9999216)

but then I had a better question: Can it cool my 64-bit prescott?

Re:I was going to ask about that... (1, Funny)

bhima (46039) | about 10 years ago | (#9999241)


Re:I was going to ask about that... (4, Funny)

buro9 (633210) | about 10 years ago | (#9999243)

No, to cool a prescott you need to use the water around glaciers.

Re:Environmental effects (2, Insightful)

black mariah (654971) | about 10 years ago | (#9999237)

Why would it? It's just siphoning off water on the bottom and moving it elsewhere. Unless the lake gets catastrophically low (the pipe's 83 meters down), there should be no issue with water warming at all.

Enviromental effects seem to be quite minimal. Water is taken for drinking supplies anyway, and all they're doing is channeling it through a different set of pipes. I'm pretty sure that the enviromental effects were considered, as it's far better to shut stupid Greenpeace hippies up before they can start their jaw flapping.

Re:Environmental effects (4, Insightful)

jonbryce (703250) | about 10 years ago | (#9999260)

If you take cold water from the bottom, then surely it will be replaced with warmer water from above. Is there anything that makes the water cool down once it is in the lake?

Re:Environmental effects (5, Insightful)

black mariah (654971) | about 10 years ago | (#9999309)

The water at the bottom of the lake isn't special. The only reason it's cold is because it's so far away from the surface that it can't be heated by the sun, and the water on top helps wick away any heat that might build up. Go dive into a lake. The first few inches of the surface might be warm, but down as little as five feet you're looking at a significant drop in temperature, and it just gets colder as it goes down.

Re:Environmental effects (2, Informative)

jonbryce (703250) | about 10 years ago | (#9999325)

Also because cold water is denser and so it falls to the bottom.

When the pre-heated warmer water from nearer the surface falls down to replace the cold water that is removed, what happens? Does it say warmer, or does it cool down?

Re:Environmental effects (4, Insightful)

black mariah (654971) | about 10 years ago | (#9999352)

It cools. How do you think the water got cold to begin with?

Re:Environmental effects (1, Insightful)

hcdejong (561314) | about 10 years ago | (#9999304)

The water may not be returned to the lake again, but the 'bottom layer' of 4 deg C water will get thinner, as the water that's pumped out is replaced with surface water that has a higher temperature.
Maybe the cooling capacity of the lake bottom is high enough to counteract this, though.

Re:Environmental effects (3, Insightful)

black mariah (654971) | about 10 years ago | (#9999333)

the 'bottom layer' of 4 deg C water will get thinner, as the water that's pumped out is replaced with surface water that has a higher temperature
But how long will it take that layer to be eroded? Also, it isn't replaced by surface water. The water directly around it takes its spot. We're still talking about water that's 83 meters below the surface.
Maybe the cooling capacity of the lake bottom is high enough to counteract this, though.
Precisely. It would take a *LOT* of pumping to get that much water out of the lake. I'm willing to wager that a typical summer takes more water out of the lake in a year through evaporation than this will in a decade. But don't quote me, because I know no specifics beyond the article.

Re:Environmental effects (2, Insightful)

gowen (141411) | about 10 years ago | (#9999359)

Well, as I understand it, that water was getting pumped out of the lake anyway... But given how cold Ontario gets in winter, the Canadian winter probably cools the lake enough in the winter for it to act as a pretty efficient renewable heat buffer.

Re:Environmental effects (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9999327)

"minimal"? Look what happened to the coral when the ocean water was used as the coolen for the "nuclar" power plants.

Re:Environmental effects (2, Interesting)

black mariah (654971) | about 10 years ago | (#9999382)

And again, I ask, what is going to heat the water? as long as they don't suck out enough water to significantly lower the lake lever in a short amount of time, there is no chance of that happening.

Re:Environmental effects (1, Interesting)

goatan (673464) | about 10 years ago | (#9999409)

as it's far better to shut stupid Greenpeace hippies up before they can start their jaw flapping.

Not that it will stop them turning up in a boat that uses copious amounts of fossil fuels [] , whilst protesting the amount of fossil fuel that are used in the world (they fitted sails to rainbow warrior but it's main propulsion is 2 6 cylinder diesels very environmental. or releasing minks from a fur farm on grounds of animal cruelty and they end up devastating the natural wildlife for miles around. []

somehow despite ther intentions greenpeace and there supporters seem better at destroying rather than saving.

Re:Environmental effects (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9999434)

At least they don't periodically beat dead horses...

Re:Environmental effects (4, Informative)

Rxke (644923) | about 10 years ago | (#9999242)

From the article:

"...Brought to the John St. Pumping Station, the water's cold will be extracted and used to lower the temperature in downtown buildings. The water will then be treated and enter the city's drinking supply...."

So might be a double whammy, the water isn't directly injected into the lake again.

Re:Environmental effects (1)

richteas (244342) | about 10 years ago | (#9999355)

But the water that is being pumped from the lake may very well be replaced by (surrounding) warmer water. The backflow of treated water is only half of the story.
But then again, it all depends on the scale. How much water is actually being taken, in comparison to the overall reservoir of cold water.

Re:Environmental effects (4, Insightful)

mdfst13 (664665) | about 10 years ago | (#9999380)

From where were they getting their drinking water previously? My first guess is that this just substitutes water taken from the bottom of the lake for water that would otherwise be taken from the top. Net change in water levels (vs. not doing this) would thus be negligible.

Re:Environmental effects (1)

dupper (470576) | about 10 years ago | (#9999256)

No environmental effects that haven't already been caused by pollution. Any of those cooling pipes burst and you'll never get the smell out of the carpet.

Re:Environmental effects (5, Informative)

gowen (141411) | about 10 years ago | (#9999257)

No it won't, because the water used to cool the air is the same water that would be extracted anyway, to provide potable water to the city. See this schematic [] . Notice the warm water is not returned to Lake Ontario.

Re:Environmental effects (1)

bhima (46039) | about 10 years ago | (#9999326)

Reading that I wonder if the amount of water needed for cooling is related to the amount for potable comsumption...

Actually, water DOES flow down hill (5, Informative)

Analogy Man (601298) | about 10 years ago | (#9999438)

The scematic does not show the back half of the municipal system (sewer and waste water treatment).

As a grandson of a plumber I can confirm that the water does eventually end up back in the lake. Rule #1 of plumbing ...water flows down hill.

The beauty of this implementation is that the incremental warming of the water may actually further save energy if slightly warmer water comes into water heaters. From a thermodynamic standpoint this looks like a very large geothermal system. The economies of scale may make it quite cost effective too.

Re:Environmental effects (1)

D'Sphitz (699604) | about 10 years ago | (#9999259)

any idea how much water is in lake ontario? i'll wager a guess and say alot. it won't warm up the lake.

Doesn't seem (-1, Redundant)

DrYak (748999) | about 10 years ago | (#9999263)

According to the article, the water will not return directly into the lake, but after having ran thru a heat exchanger, will be filtered and used as potable water.

So the "hot" water won't directly return into the lake, and the warming should be *that* much important. (The only effect will be that of the "missing" volume of cold water. Which is only a small part when compared to the whole lake). ...the only question that remains :
Could I use all this water to cool down my Über-OverClocked CPU ?!?!?!?

Re:Environmental effects (3, Informative)

g3rr!t (570129) | about 10 years ago | (#9999265)

From the "Fact Sheet" on Enwave's site, /fact

Will DLWC warm up Lake Ontario?

* No. Enwave is not extracting from Lake Ontario's water and then directing 'warmer' water back to the lake. The DLWC project has been designed to draw very cold lake water - colder than what the City needs for its water supply - from Lake Ontario. Enwave will extract the extra coldness before the water is sent into the usual water supply system. Water from Lake Ontario is being used for two different purposes: a cooling alternative for Enwave and a drinking water source for Toronto and York citizens.

Of course, what would you expect them to say?

Re:Environmental effects (1)

VeryProfessional (805174) | about 10 years ago | (#9999274)

Maybe I'm missing something, but won't extracting the coldest water and leaving the warmer water increase the average temperature of the lake? This would be true even if the warmed water is then not returned to the lake.

Re:Environmental effects (3, Informative)

drnlm (533500) | about 10 years ago | (#9999387)

Yes, it will. However, you have take relative volumes into account. If the project is pulling more than a very small percentage (and I do mean very small) of the total water out of the lake, you have worse problems than the heat exchange effects (and your population density has exceeded the ability of your local water supply to support it, which leads to a whole lot of additional headaches).

In practice, one will see a small tempretaure increase in the vicinity of the pipelines, but they're probably ecologically stuffed areas anyway, with various additional current effects, etc. The overall volume affected will be very small in relation to the lake itself and thus the total impact is not significant. The natural seasonal cooling cycle should ensure that there is always cold water available (until global warming destroys the seasonal cycle, anyway :) ).

Re:Environmental effects (5, Informative)

Curtman (556920) | about 10 years ago | (#9999266)

This has been covered extensively on Discovery Canada, which I watch regularly. Here's a quote that puts this into perspective:

...He said environmental studies show the system will cause a temperature increase [each year] equivalent to the heat the lake surface absorbs during seven seconds of sunshine....
-Toronto cools off using Lake Ontario waters []

Re:Environmental effects (2, Insightful)

beh (4759) | about 10 years ago | (#9999383)

But is this comparable?

In this case, we're heating a very cold (and potentially very isolated part of the lake) as opposed to the sunshine spreading its energy all across the lake.

Picture this: Normal sunlight on a warm and sunny day warms up your skin - but drink plenty, and it won't harm you (too much). But if you take a lens and focus even only a small part of that sunlight energy on a particular place on your skin - and no amount of drinking cold drinks is going to prevent the pain...

This isn't saying we shouldn't do, what they're doing in Toronto - anything we do is going to have consequences in some shape or form anyway. But at least, we should keep a very close eye on it - and even monitor different parts of the lake that (to our knowledge) should be relatively untouched by this thing.

Re:Environmental effects (1)

Yaa 101 (664725) | about 10 years ago | (#9999285)

It is not about extracting cool water from the lake, but where do you let go of your warm (relative) water, you cannot throw it back like that into the same lake... you will mess with the long term climate in that area...

Re:Environmental effects (1)

frp001 (227227) | about 10 years ago | (#9999301)

Come on guys, get a clue! Parent is right. You just cannot cool something warm with something cold without heating that thing. It's a pure energy equation.
Even if you do not return the water to the lake: what will replace it?
Now I am not saying the this is a bad solution, I'm just saying the water temperature at the bottom of the lake is bound to warm up (which is globally less extra heat --globally speaking -- than would be generated by just using Air Cond.)

Re:Environmental effects (5, Insightful)

VeryProfessional (805174) | about 10 years ago | (#9999310)

We have to recognise that any interaction we have with the environment is going to have some impact on it. This impact will by definition be negative if we characterise any change to the existing equilibrium as being negative. The smart thing to do is to spread the impact by interacting in lots of different ways on a lower level, rather than abusing a single resource, as we currently do with fossil fuels.

I applaud what they are doing in Canada. The more alternative energy sources we use, the better.

Re:Environmental effects (-1)

Welsh Dwarf (743630) | about 10 years ago | (#9999394)

A nice example of this is Germany, where they're setting up wind generators off shore, all in a nice line.

The problem is that after thewind has past through that, it's no longer strong enough to push clouds, so that the area just behind is drying out (IIRC the figure was 7% pa, but don't quote me on that).

It's one example I use every time Greenpeace asks me to join.

Anyhow, the real issue is (or should be) reducing our energy consummation in general, and not just throughing the problem else where until a study shows that we've screwed up yet again, and this is what Canada is doing, finding a novel way to cool the city without increasing their water useage .


Re:Environmental effects (5, Funny)

bhima (46039) | about 10 years ago | (#9999433)

You should join Greenpeace!

I've never seen such a concentration of good looking impressionable young ladies in my life. It's well worth the effort!

Re:Environmental effects (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9999363)

They discussed this project on The Discovery Channel a few weeks ago which indicated that the yearly heating of the lake due to extracting this cold water is equal to about 7 seconds of sun heating the lake. So, the warming of the lake is considered negligible, but a little warming will occur.

Realy Cool! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9999208)


SP (1)

jb_davis (732457) | about 10 years ago | (#9999210)


\_//.\_/ - CowboyNeal
^__^ //\ \
(oo)\______o/ \_\
(__)\ )==/ /
||----w | | |
|| ||_|_|

Nice :) (4, Insightful)

Killjoy_NL (719667) | about 10 years ago | (#9999211)

This is the kind of stuff I like to see :)

Ok, it costs a lot of money, but in the long run it has the possibility to save so much more than money: the enviroment.

Re:Nice :) (1)

wisdom_brewing (557753) | about 10 years ago | (#9999236)

but in the long run the lake will evapourate, making the climate in the region less stable (water holding a lot of heat is one of the main reasons the earth has such a (relatively) mild climate) with hotter summers and colder winters, leading to the requirement of more heating in winter and more air conditioning in summer... brilliant

the idea is a good one... lets just hope that the above doesnt happen...

Re:Nice :) (0, Offtopic)

black mariah (654971) | about 10 years ago | (#9999252)

And how long will it take an 83 meter deep lake in Canada to evaporate to the point where the water temperature along the bottom is raised significantly enough to make this project moot?

Does it really matter? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9999366)

We'll all be dead by then, anyway :)

Insect Incest (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9999215)

One morning, as Gregor Samsa was waking up from anxious dreams, he discovered that in bed he had been changed into a monstrous verminous bug. He lay on his armour-hard back and saw, as he lifted his head up a little, his brown, arched abdomen divided up into rigid bow-like sections. From this height the blanket, just about ready to slide off completely, could hardly stay in place. His numerous legs, pitifully thin in comparison to the rest of his circumference, flickered helplessly before his eyes. "What's happened to me," he thought. It was no dream. His room, a proper room for a human being, only somewhat too small, lay quietly between the four well-known walls. Above the table, on which an unpacked collection of sample cloth goods was spread out--Samsa was a travelling salesman--hung the picture which he had cut out of an illustrated magazine a little while ago and set in a pretty gilt frame. It was a picture of a woman with a fur hat and a fur boa. She sat erect there, lifting up in the direction of the viewer a solid fur muff into which her entire forearm had disappeared. Gregor's glance then turned to the window. The dreary weather--the rain drops were falling audibly down on the metal window ledge--made him quite melancholy. "Why don't I keep sleeping for a little while longer and forget all this foolishness," he thought. But this was entirely impractical, for he was used to sleeping on his right side, and in his present state he couldn't get himself into this position. No matter how hard he threw himself onto his right side, he always rolled again onto his back. He must have tried it a hundred times, closing his eyes so that he would not have to see the wriggling legs, and gave up only when he began to feel a light, dull pain in his side which he had never felt before. "O God," he thought, "what a demanding job I've chosen! Day in, day out, on the road. The stresses of selling are much greater than the work going on at head office, and, in addition to that, I have to cope with the problems of travelling, the worries about train connections, irregular bad food, temporary and constantly changing human relationships, which never come from the heart. To hell with it all!" He felt a slight itching on the top of his abdomen. He slowly pushed himself on his back closer to the bed post so that he could lift his head more easily, found the itchy part, which was entirely covered with small white spots--he did not know what to make of them and wanted to feel the place with a leg. But he retracted it immediately, for the contact felt like a cold shower all over him. He slid back again into his earlier position. "This getting up early," he thought, "makes a man quite idiotic. A man must have his sleep. Other travelling salesmen live like harem women. For instance, when I come back to the inn during the course of the morning to write up the necessary orders, these gentlemen are just sitting down to breakfast. If I were to try that with my boss, I'd be thrown out on the spot. Still, who knows whether that mightn't be really good for me? If I didn't hold back for my parents' sake, I'd have quit ages ago. I would've gone to the boss and told him just what I think from the bottom of my heart. He would've fallen right off his desk! How weird it is to sit up at that desk and talk down to the employee from way up there. The boss has trouble hearing, so the employee has to step up quite close to him. Anyway, I haven't completely given up that hope yet. Once I've got together the money to pay off my parents' debt to him--that should take another five or six years--I'll do it for sure. Then I'll make the big break. In any case, right now I have to get up. My train leaves at five o'clock." He looked over at the alarm clock ticking away by the chest of drawers. "Good God!" he thought. It was half past six, and the hands were going quietly on. It was past the half hour, already nearly quarter to. Could the alarm have failed to ring? One saw from the bed that it was properly set for four o'clock. Certainly it had rung. Yes, but was it possible to sleep through that noise which made the furniture shake? Now, it's true he'd not slept quietly, but evidently he'd slept all the more deeply. Still, what should he do now? The next train left at seven o'clock. To catch that one, he would have to go in a mad rush. The sample collection wasn't packed up yet, and he really didn't feel particularly fresh and active. And even if he caught the train, there was no avoiding a blow-up with the boss, because the firm's errand boy would've waited for the five o'clock train and reported the news of his absence long ago. He was the boss's minion, without backbone or intelligence. Well then, what if he reported in sick? But that would be extremely embarrassing and suspicious, because during his five years' service Gregor hadn't been sick even once. The boss would certainly come with the doctor from the health insurance company and would reproach his parents for their lazy son and cut short all objections with the insurance doctor's comments; for him everyone was completely healthy but really lazy about work. And besides, would the doctor in this case be totally wrong? Apart from a really excessive drowsiness after the long sleep, Gregor in fact felt quite well and even had a really strong appetite. As he was thinking all this over in the greatest haste, without being able to make the decision to get out of bed--the alarm clock was indicating exactly quarter to seven--there was a cautious knock on the door by the head of the bed. "Gregor," a voice called--it was his mother!--"it's quarter to seven. Don't you want to be on your way?" The soft voice! Gregor was startled when he heard his voice answering. It was clearly and unmistakably his earlier voice, but in it was intermingled, as if from below, an irrepressibly painful squeaking, which left the words positively distinct only in the first moment and distorted them in the reverberation, so that one didn't know if one had heard correctly. Gregor wanted to answer in detail and explain everything, but in these circumstances he confined himself to saying, "Yes, yes, thank you mother. I'm getting up right away." Because of the wooden door the change in Gregor's voice was not really noticeable outside, so his mother calmed down with this explanation and shuffled off. However, as a result of the short conversation, the other family members became aware that Gregor was unexpectedly still at home, and already his father was knocking on one side door, weakly but with his fist. "Gregor, Gregor," he called out, "what's going on?" And, after a short while, he urged him on again in a deeper voice: "Gregor!" Gregor!" At the other side door, however, his sister knocked lightly. "Gregor? Are you all right? Do you need anything?" Gregor directed answers in both directions, "I'll be ready right away." He made an effort with the most careful articulation and by inserting long pauses between the individual words to remove everything remarkable from his voice. His father turned back to his breakfast. However, the sister whispered, "Gregor, open the door--I beg you." Gregor had no intention of opening the door, but congratulated himself on his precaution, acquired from travelling, of locking all doors during the night, even at home. First he wanted to stand up quietly and undisturbed, get dressed, above all have breakfast, and only then consider further action, for--he noticed this clearly--by thinking things over in bed he would not reach a reasonable conclusion. He remembered that he had already often felt a light pain or other in bed, perhaps the result of an awkward lying position, which later turned out to be purely imaginary when he stood up, and he was eager to see how his present fantasies would gradually dissipate. That the change in his voice was nothing other than the onset of a real chill, an occupational illness of commercial travellers, of that he had not the slightest doubt. It was very easy to throw aside the blanket. He needed only to push himself up a little, and it fell by itself. But to continue was difficult, particularly because he was so unusually wide. He needed arms and hands to push himself upright. Instead of these, however, he had only many small limbs which were incessantly moving with very different motions and which, in addition, he was unable to control. If he wanted to bend one of them, then it was the first to extend itself, and if he finally succeeded doing what he wanted with this limb, in the meantime all the others, as if left free, moved around in an excessively painful agitation. "But I must not stay in bed uselessly," said Gregor to himself. At first he wanted to get out of bed with the lower part of his body, but this lower part--which, by the way, he had not yet looked at and which he also couldn't picture clearly--proved itself too difficult to move. The attempt went so slowly. When, having become almost frantic, he finally hurled himself forward with all his force and without thinking, he chose his direction incorrectly, and he hit the lower bedpost hard. The violent pain he felt revealed to him that the lower part of his body was at the moment probably the most sensitive. Thus, he tried to get his upper body out of the bed first and turned his head carefully toward the edge of the bed. He managed to do this easily, and in spite of its width and weight his body mass at last slowly followed the turning of his head. But as he finally raised his head outside the bed in the open air, he became anxious about moving forward any further in this manner, for if he allowed himself eventually to fall by this process, it would take a miracle to prevent his head from getting injured. And at all costs he must not lose consciousness right now. He preferred to remain in bed. However, after a similar effort, while he lay there again, sighing as before, and once again saw his small limbs fighting one another, if anything worse than earlier, and didn't see any chance of imposing quiet and order on this arbitrary movement, he told himself again that he couldn't possibly remain in bed and that it might be the most reasonable thing to sacrifice everything if there was even the slightest hope of getting himself out of bed in the process. At the same moment, however, he didn't forget to remind himself from time to time of the fact that calm--indeed the calmest--reflection might be better than the most confused decisions. At such moments, he directed his gaze as precisely as he could toward the window, but unfortunately there was little confident cheer to be had from a glance at the morning mist, which concealed even the other side of the narrow street. "It's already seven o'clock," he told himself at the latest striking of the alarm clock, "already seven o'clock and still such a fog." And for a little while longer he lay quietly with weak breathing, as if perhaps waiting for normal and natural conditions to re-emerge out of the complete stillness. But then he said to himself, "Before it strikes a quarter past seven, whatever happens I must be completely out of bed. Besides, by then someone from the office will arrive to inquire about me, because the office will open before seven o'clock." And he made an effort then to rock his entire body length out of the bed with a uniform motion. If he let himself fall out of the bed in this way, his head, which in the course of the fall he intended to lift up sharply, would probably remain uninjured. His back seemed to be hard; nothing would really happen to that as a result of the fall. His greatest reservation was a worry about the loud noise which the fall must create and which presumably would arouse, if not fright, then at least concern on the other side of all the doors. However, it had to be tried. As Gregor was in the process of lifting himself half out of bed--the new method was more of a game than an effort; he needed only to rock with a constant rhythm--it struck him how easy all this would be if someone were to come to his aid. Two strong people--he thought of his father and the servant girl--would have been quite sufficient. They would have only had to push their arms under his arched back to get him out of the bed, to bend down with their load, and then merely to exercise patience and care that he completed the flip onto the floor, where his diminutive legs would then, he hoped, acquire a purpose. Now, quite apart from the fact that the doors were locked, should he really call out for help? In spite of all his distress, he was unable to suppress a smile at this idea. He had already got to the point where, by rocking more strongly, he maintained his equilibrium with difficulty, and very soon he would finally have to decide, for in five minutes it would be a quarter past seven. Then there was a ring at the door of the apartment. "That's someone from the office," he told himself, and he almost froze while his small limbs only danced around all the faster. For one moment everything remained still. "They aren't opening," Gregor said to himself, caught up in some absurd hope. But of course then, as usual, the servant girl with her firm tread went to the door and opened it. Gregor needed to hear only the first word of the visitor's greeting to recognize immediately who it was, the manager himself. Why was Gregor the only one condemned to work in a firm where, at the slightest lapse, someone immediately attracted the greatest suspicion? Were all the employees then collectively, one and all, scoundrels? Among them was there then no truly devoted person who, if he failed to use just a couple of hours in the morning for office work, would become abnormal from pangs of conscience and really be in no state to get out of bed? Was it really not enough to let an apprentice make inquiries, if such questioning was even necessary? Must the manager himself come, and in the process must it be demonstrated to the entire innocent family that the investigation of this suspicious circumstance could be entrusted only to the intelligence of the manager? And more as a consequence of the excited state in which this idea put Gregor than as a result of an actual decision, he swung himself with all his might out of the bed. There was a loud thud, but not a real crash. The fall was absorbed somewhat by the carpet and, in addition, his back was more elastic than Gregor had thought. For that reason the dull noise was not quite so conspicuous. But he had not held his head up with sufficient care and had hit it. He turned his head, irritated and in pain, and rubbed it on the carpet. "Something has fallen in there," said the manager in the next room on the left. Gregor tried to imagine to himself whether anything similar to what was happening to him today could have also happened at some point to the manager. At least one had to concede the possibility of such a thing. However, as if to give a rough answer to this question, the manager now, with a squeak of his polished boots, took a few determined steps in the next room. From the neighbouring room on the right the sister was whispering to inform Gregor: "Gregor, the manager is here." "I know," said Gregor to himself. But he did not dare make his voice loud enough so that his sister could hear. "Gregor," his father now said from the neighbouring room on the left, "Mr. Manager has come and is asking why you have not left on the early train. We don't know what we should tell him. Besides, he also wants to speak to you personally. So please open the door. He will be good enough to forgive the mess in your room." In the middle of all this, the manager called out in a friendly way, "Good morning, Mr. Samsa." "He is not well," said his mother to the manager, while his father was still talking at the door, "He is not well, believe me, Mr. Manager. Otherwise how would Gregor miss a train? The young man has nothing in his head except business. I'm almost angry that he never goes out at night. Right now he's been in the city eight days, but he's been at home every evening. He sits here with us at the table and reads the newspaper quietly or studies his travel schedules. It's a quite a diversion for him to busy himself with fretwork. For instance, he cut out a small frame over the course of two or three evenings. You'd be amazed how pretty it is. It's hanging right inside the room. You'll see it immediately, as soon as Gregor opens the door. Anyway, I'm happy that you're here, Mr. Manager. By ourselves, we would never have made Gregor open the door. He's so stubborn, and he's certainly not well, although he denied that this morning." "I'm coming right away," said Gregor slowly and deliberately and didn't move, so as not to lose one word of the conversation. "My dear lady, I cannot explain it to myself in any other way," said the manager; "I hope it is nothing serious. On the other hand, I must also say that we business people, luckily or unluckily, however one looks at it, very often simply have to overcome a slight indisposition for business reasons." "So can Mr. Manager come in to see you now?" asked his father impatiently and knocked once again on the door. "No," said Gregor. In the neighbouring room on the left a painful stillness descended. In the neighbouring room on the right the sister began to sob. Why didn't his sister go to the others? She'd probably just gotten up out of bed now and hadn't even started to get dressed yet. Then why was she crying? Because he wasn't getting up and wasn't letting the manager in, because he was in danger of losing his position, and because then his boss would badger his parents once again with the old demands? Those were probably unnecessary worries right now. Gregor was still here and wasn't thinking at all about abandoning his family. At the moment he was lying right there on the carpet, and no one who knew about his condition would've seriously demanded that he let the manager in. But Gregor wouldn't be casually dismissed right way because of this small discourtesy, for which he would find an easy and suitable excuse later on. It seemed to Gregor that it might be far more reasonable to leave him in peace at the moment, instead of disturbing him with crying and conversation. But it was the very uncertainty which distressed the others and excused their behaviour. "Mr. Samsa," the manager was now shouting, his voice raised, "what's the matter? You are barricading yourself in your room, answer with only a yes and a no, are making serious and unnecessary troubles for your parents, and neglecting (I mention this only incidentally) your commercial duties in a truly unheard of manner. I am speaking here in the name of your parents and your employer, and I am requesting you in all seriousness for an immediate and clear explanation. I am amazed. I am amazed. I thought I knew you as a calm, reasonable person, and now you appear suddenly to want to start parading around in weird moods. The Chief indicated to me earlier this very day a possible explanation for your neglect--it concerned the collection of cash entrusted to you a short while ago--but in truth I almost gave him my word of honour that this explanation could not be correct. However, now I see here your unimaginable pig headedness, and I am totally losing any desire to speak up for you in the slightest. And your position is not at all the most secure. Originally I intended to mention all this to you privately, but since you are letting me waste my time here uselessly, I don't know why the matter shouldn't come to the attention of your parents. Your productivity has also been very unsatisfactory recently. Of course, it's not the time of year to conduct exceptional business, we recognize that, but a time of year for conducting no business, there is no such thing at all, Mr. Samsa, and such a thing must never be."

How's the Google trading going? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9999220)

I would have thought that the absence of a Google stock notation, the reduction to 5.5 million shares (from 11.6 million) and the lower price range of $85 to $95 per share (instead of $108 to $135) would be newsworthy on Slashdot.

Just two questions (5, Interesting)

cyclop (780354) | about 10 years ago | (#9999222)

(1). What will happen when the lake water will be warmed up? Ok,it will perhaps take a long time,but...

(2). How does the energy required for pumping / distributing the water and maintaining pipelines and machinery compares with electrical conditioneers?

Said that, it looks like a nice idea.

Re:Just two questions (5, Informative)

jonbryce (703250) | about 10 years ago | (#9999231)

Q1 is a valid concern.

Q2 is apparently answered in the article. Approx 25% of the energy requirements for electrical air con.

Re:Just two questions (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9999272)

Q1 is apparently answered in the article. The water is not returned to the lake. It enters the normal city water supply after it has absorbed the energy where it is least wanted instead of some arbitrary pipe.

Re:Just two questions (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9999293)

Yes, but by removing the cooler water from the bottom you are increasing the overall temperature of the lake as the cold water removed will only be replaced by warm rain. In the long run this may be a problem.

Re:Just two questions (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9999340)

Lake Ontario has a retention time of 6 years. The retention time is the average time water stays in the lake. Lake Ontario has a volume of 395 cubic miles. Taking both values into consideration, the influence on the water temperature should be insignificant.

Re:Just two questions (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9999343)

as the cold water removed will only be replaced by warm rain

Yeah, because I could never think of a time that the sunny paradise of Toronto, Canada would ever have temperatures below freezing and not require A/C throughout the city.

Re:Just two questions (1)

D'Sphitz (699604) | about 10 years ago | (#9999275)

How is Q1 a valid concern? Warm up the lake? Are you kidding?

Re:Just two questions (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9999297)

You obviousley didn't read the first link, it says A permanent layer of icy-cold (4C) water 83 meters below the surface of Lake Ontario provides naturally cold water..

No problemo!!

Re:Just two questions (1)

frp001 (227227) | about 10 years ago | (#9999347)

You obviously believe everything that is fed to you.
Would they possibly confess: "Yes actually we are going to warm the Lake up, but actually I do not really care because I will have made a fortune by then!"
I doubt it.

Re:Just two questions (1)

nbert (785663) | about 10 years ago | (#9999332)

(1). What will happen when the lake water will be warmed up? Ok,it will perhaps take a long time,but...

Unfortunately they don't cover this issue in tfa, but since they use it for regular watter supply afterwards I would guess that the effects are minimal. After all they would have taken the water anyways (but maybe from a shallower and warmer site?).

Re:Just two questions (1)

Serious Simon (701084) | about 10 years ago | (#9999342)

During the spring, vast amounts of melt water feeding the lake will replace any water extracted for the city water supply. I don't think it will cause the lake to noticeably warm up.

Just one word... (2, Funny)

Serious Simon (701084) | about 10 years ago | (#9999230)


Lake warming (0, Redundant)

davek (18465) | about 10 years ago | (#9999232)

First of all, when the world trade centeres existed, they were air conditioned using the waters of the hudson river, so this is an old idea. Secondly, what kind of environmental consequences will happen when the bottom of the lake starts to warm up? The great lakes make up a large part of the weather system in the northeast of the US. If they change, the whole weather pattern could change. I, for one, am skeptical.

But then again, I'm sitting in Hungary, in a room with no air conditioning, on a hot august day, and there's at least 15 big fat room-heaters in this little office. I would kill for some air conditioning.


read the article (0, Redundant)

Barbarian (9467) | about 10 years ago | (#9999253)

The water will be treated and enter the drinking water supply at normal temperature after it is used to cool buildings. It will just take the place of other water that would enter the drinking water, and be discharged the way it all currently is.

Re:Lake warming (1)

black mariah (654971) | about 10 years ago | (#9999267)

Nobody ever said this was a new idea, only that this is the first large-scale project of its type in North America. I'd assume from that statement that other projects of this type exist elsewhere already.

How, pray tell, would the bottom of the lake warm up? All that's below the water is a pipe. The water that is collected, as it says in the article, is used elsewhere for the drinking supplies. Someone else posed a concern about evaporation, but I'll ask you the same question I asked him. How long would it take for an 83 meter deep lake in Canada to evaporate to the point where this project is rendered pointless?

Re:Lake warming (1)

Atrahasis (556602) | about 10 years ago | (#9999375)

How, pray tell, would the bottom of the lake warm up? All that's below the water is a pipe.

At some point warmer water will have to replace colder water in the lake. If you remove cold water, then the amount of cold water in the lake decreases. For the layer that the water is being removed from to remain at the same temperature it was before removal, either the layer must become smaller (and leave less for removal) or surrounding water must cool, meaning that other water must then warm to conserve energy.

Removing cold water will increase the lake's overall temperature. The question is by how much, and whether that change is significant.

Re:Lake warming (0)

Moraelin (679338) | about 10 years ago | (#9999439)

Well, my real curiosity is "why the heck does Canada need _cooling_ the air?"

Look at a world map and see where Hungary is, and where Canada is. Hint: a lot more to the north. It's up there with Siberia.

Or with Scandinavia, but the difference is that Scandinavia has the warm Gulf Stream. Canada doesn't. As I've said, the most apt comparison is Siberia. Another way to put it would be "fucking cold."

So why would anyone need to cool the air is beyond me. Might as well enjoy that warmth while it lasts, IMHO.

Seems to me like what they'd _really_ save energy with, is if they found a way to naturally warm the rooms in winter, rather than on cooling them in what little summer they get.

Then again, I'm sitting at 30 C in an office without air conditioning, and I think it's very nice. So your mileage may vary.

In a related story... (5, Funny)

hazman (642790) | about 10 years ago | (#9999234)

Halliburton, Bechtel and General Electric have signed a multi-billion dollar deal to refrigerate the waters of Lake Ontario.

The temperature of the lake has inexplicably begun to rise. Algae blooms, moss growing on surronding trees and Corona beer bottles scattered on the shore have alarmed the Canadian Department of the Interior to take swift, albeit expensive action the save the ecosystem of the lake.

Like co-generation (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9999240)

From the diagram, it looks like the cooling water goes into the city water supply where normally the cooling effect would have been lost as the water flowed through the city's water infrastructure. Conceptually it looks like co-generation, but for cooling.

m0d up (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9999245)

im beter then all you!
stupid morans

| _ GNAA bUz: ; ___ )

b00m b00n0v00n0 b00m
lunix sukcs

-Mihcael Alkav

Re:m0d up (-1, Troll)

sqrt(2) (786011) | about 10 years ago | (#9999312)

THE \_//.\_/
GNAA ________________ (^^)
BUS |_I_I_I_I_I_I_I_I]___ / /\\
PWNZ | _ GNAA bUz: ; ___ )/ / \o_____
CWBY '-(_)----------=-(_)-'\ \ ||-----||
NEEL | | || ||
ROFL |_|_ || ||

Messing with lakes: NOT a good idea (4, Interesting)

Capt'n Hector (650760) | about 10 years ago | (#9999270)

Several times in recorded history, lakes have "belched" massive amounts of carbon dioxide, killing off not only fish, but people in surrounding areas. Lake Nyos [] is one such example. The circumstances vary, but always involve extremely deep water, saturated with CO2, being shifted to a shallower depth. When this happens, water has a much lower capacity for CO2, and it is released into the air.

Not that I'm predicting this will happen here, but it's usually best not to heat deep water like that.

Re:Messing with lakes: NOT a good idea (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9999370)

I think this is unlikely to be a problem.

Lakes 'turn over' like this when there has been long-term stratification of the water. Stratification occurs when a layer of warm, less dense, water forms over the colder, denser, lower layers. This is stable since the heat of the sun reinforces the stratification. Only a seasonal reduction in sunlight, or strong winds, can mix the layers.

Lake Nyos is in a tropical area where there is a permanent, marked stratication due to year-round abundant sunlight. Since mixing of layers is so rare, hug amounts of gas can accumulate in lower layers. This is dangerous should something trigger a rapid breakdown of the stratification - such as the landslide in Nyos.

In temperate areas stratification is confined to the summer, only then is there sufficient sunlight. In other seasons stratification breaks down and mixing occurs such that a potentially dangerous build up of gas is not possible.

Re:Messing with lakes: NOT a good idea (4, Informative)

No Such Agency (136681) | about 10 years ago | (#9999376)

They're not sending the warmed (by 8'C) water directly back - it goes to drinking water supply. The CO2 thing IS super-scary though, imagine living by a lake like that (which people still do) :-O

The answer is in the article. (5, Informative)

bit4byte (210625) | about 10 years ago | (#9999279)

According to the site they use the city water supply
that feeds from the bottom of the lake to cool down
a closed loop system, which is then used to cool down the offices/homes. No warm water is fed back into the lake. So the lake should not heat up at all.

Re:The answer is in the article. (1)

awehttam (779031) | about 10 years ago | (#9999356)


Wouldn't extracting the cold lake water increase the temperature of the lake by simply not being there anymore?

If so and this technology really flies (ie: competition) how much extra cold water are they going to suck out of the lake? Over 30 years?

did i get post 10 million? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9999283)

if so, I dedicate it to GNAA!

The lake is NOT warming up ! (5, Informative)

arska (145934) | about 10 years ago | (#9999287)

Look at the diagram on They warm up the city's drinking water by a few degrees.


Re:The lake is NOT warming up ! (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9999336)

But... but... what is the environmental effect? If they warm up the drinking water by several degrees, it could have lots of unforeseen consequences! I say, we should immediately shut down the project to be on the safe side.

Re:The lake is NOT warming up ! (4, Interesting)

frovingslosh (582462) | about 10 years ago | (#9999397)

Actually, it's unlikely that the city was drawing it's drinking water from this deep before. They were almost certainly taking it from a point higher up and warmer. So the city drinking water may not be warmer at all as a result of this; it might even be cooler. And, since the lower water can hold more CO2, it might be slightly carbonated! (Look for the interesting side effects when somewhat more acidic carbonated water is flowing through old pipes.)

On the other hand, since the cold water is being taken from the lake now rather than warmer water, the thermal barrier between the warmer top water and the lower cold water may slowly lower (and it is a very sharp layer, not the gradual drop in temperature you might expect). This may indeed have some effect, but that doesn't seem very likely.

They could have gone the simpler and more direct route of just building a power plant that used the difference in tempersture between the cold bottom water and the top water to pump up that water and generate electricity. Such plants have been proven to work with ocean water, and should be even simpler in an environment without salt water's effects. I'm assuming they didn't because in Toranto that top water would also get pretty cold in the winter. Still, I don't expect they will need much air conditioning in the winter anyway, so a seasonal power plant might have been as good or better of an idea.

The London Underground is also doing this (4, Informative)

carndearg (696084) | about 10 years ago | (#9999288)

The London Underground is doing this as well, though they are doing it with the ground water they pump out of the tunnels. If it relieves the sweaty hell of a crowded Tube train it gets my vote!

Here's the BBC's story about it [] .

How is the Google trading going? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9999291)

I would have thought that the absence of a Google stock notation, the reduction to 5.5 million shares (from 11.6 million) and the lower price range of $85 to $95 per share (instead of $108 to $135) would be newsworthy on Slashdot.

And more importantly, Alec Baldwin was there (2, Informative)

starvingartist12 (464372) | about 10 years ago | (#9999292)

The Toronto Star's coverage [] has more info about Alec Baldwin's participation in the launch of the Deep Lake Water Cooling system:

Hollywood heavyweight Alec Baldwin heaped praise on Canada's "forward-thinking" approach to energy today at the launch of a new system that uses the frigid waters of Lake Ontario to cool downtown office buildings.

The system is nothing short of a "miracle," gushed Baldwin, 46, the square-jawed star of blockbuster films like The Hunt for Red October and Ghosts of Mississippi who moonlights as an environmental activist.

"This is an important signal you are sending not only to your fellow countrymen but to the world," Baldwin told the gathered crowd.

"There's no project on a municipal level this size that's been attempted or has been executed before like this."

Unconventional thinking seemed to be at the heart of today's event, which looked like a Hollywood premiere, complete with a blasting techno soundtrack, fog machine, and bizarre floor show of twirling gymnasts contorting themselves around a large ring suspended from the ceiling.

Cool, more MEGA-WATTS for us! (0)

mrshowtime (562809) | about 10 years ago | (#9999295)

When I moved to California, where air conditioners are rare in most places, I first encountered a "chiller" which works (suppossedly) by using "cold" water run through coils instead of coolant. Well, it did not work at all. Then again, we don't have really friggin' cold water here either. :) Anyhoo, any "saved" Mega-Watts by this project will be sucked up by us, as in the U.S. I am curious as to where the water from this project goes after it is used. Obviously, the cool water used can only be used once.

"The cold is extracted"? (4, Interesting)

Bertie (87778) | about 10 years ago | (#9999316)

Er, how? What does this mean? Cold's just the absence of heat, the only way to "extract" it is to heat something up.

Re:"The cold is extracted"? (1)

awehttam (779031) | about 10 years ago | (#9999337)

Right, they are heating up the city's drinking supply by cooling down the air-conditioning "water loop".

This is what renewables are about (4, Insightful)

T.Hobbes (101603) | about 10 years ago | (#9999318)

For me, at least, this is what renewables should be about: finding a local source of economical renewable energy, and applying the appropriate technology to make it useful. The key thing, though, is that the methods change depending on what's availible locally.

Natural Laws. (5, Funny)

MrKane (804219) | about 10 years ago | (#9999328)

John St. Pumping Station has obviously found some way of overcoming The Second Law of Thermodynamics as:
'the water's cold will be extracted and used to lower the temperature in downtown buildings'.

Unit for Cold anyone?

Re:Natural Laws. (1)

armacc (782729) | about 10 years ago | (#9999358)

Unit for Cold anyone?
How about iJoules? You know, as in sqrt(-1) = i, so ...

Re:Natural Laws. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9999361)

The unit of cold is the "sneeze" of course.

Re:Natural Laws. (1)

JRIsidore (524392) | about 10 years ago | (#9999381)

Same as for heat.

Re:Natural Laws. (4, Funny)

Avian visitor (257765) | about 10 years ago | (#9999408)

Unit for Cold anyone?

The theory of cold is just a part of thermodynamic theory of darkness [] .

The unit for cold is derived from unit for darkness and equals D.s, where D is unit for darkness and s is second.

Another link (4, Informative)

Kernel Kurtz (182424) | about 10 years ago | (#9999346)

From the CBC

No registration required; 17 /enwave_040817.html

Re:Another link (real hotlink) (1)

Stephen Samuel (106962) | about 10 years ago | (#9999432)

<a href="http://The_Url"> Try this link [] </a>.
This, of course, presumes that you have HTML formatting turned on.

water warming? (2, Informative)

matrem (806375) | about 10 years ago | (#9999349)

Why are people so anxious to express their concerns about warming the lake? This idea sounds like it would be very beneficial to the environment. Then there could be an issue with warming the lake. If there is, it could be quid pro quo. But of course there is not. I have just read [] that it has a volume of 1639 km^3. That is a huge amount of heat capacity. If you put in numbers, there is not a way you can warm this lake if you wanted to. Plus, with a surface of 19,009 km^2, I think it will have no problems cooling itself in winter.

Re:water warming? (2, Informative)

JRIsidore (524392) | about 10 years ago | (#9999413)

As far as I remember from biology class in school lakes are not just big holes with water but have an annual cycle. Two times a year the cold water from the bottom exchanges with the warmer water from near the surface. Between this exchanges it is more or less in rest (any biologists please correct me if I'm mistaken here). Now if we introduce a constant flux by pumping cold water from the bottom to the top you cannot predict what consequences this has for lifeforms in the lake. Animals and plants will surely be dependant on the natural cycle somehow.
Of course if it's just a tiny fraction of the cold water that gets extracted there might be no effect at all.

How is the Google trading going? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9999357)

I would have thought that the absence of a Google stock notation, the reduction to 5.5 million shares (from 11.6 million) and the lower price range of $85 to $95 per IPO share (instead of $108 to $135) would be newsworthy on Slashdot.

"Symbolically opened"? (0, Troll)

sczimme (603413) | about 10 years ago | (#9999367)

Air cooled by the frigid waters deep in Lake Ontario started bringing relief to buildings in downtown Toronto on Tuesday after the valves were symbolically opened on the multi-million-dollar project.

How does one "symbolically open" a valve? When one is finished, is the valve really open or only "symbolically" open?

As an aside, the summary by 'an anonymous reader' is completely lifted verbatim from the article itself.

The lake WILL warm up (1, Interesting)

Siderean (150411) | about 10 years ago | (#9999368)

Even if they are not putting the warmed water back into the lake, the removal of cold water will raise the average temperature of the water (as warmer surface water has more of an impact on the overall lake) and will cause the lake to get warmer. We've done enough (I'm from Toronto) to screw up the environment around this city, we should NOT be doing this!

Re:The lake WILL warm up (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9999395)

But this is water that is being extracted anyway for the drinking water supply, isn't it? So there's no increase in extraction, just usage of the water as a coolant for the aircon circuit.

Re:The lake WILL warm up (1)

neilmoore67 (682829) | about 10 years ago | (#9999398)

We've done enough (I'm from Toronto) to screw up the environment around this city, we should NOT be doing this!

It may be true that much has been done to screw up the environment, and this isn't peculiar to Toronto I'm sure. Things like this are a tradeoff between functionality (which people simply won't allow to go backwards) and environmental good. This seems to be environmentally preferable to petrol powered air conditioning and with similar results, so I think it's a good thing even if it isn't perfect./P

Re:The lake WILL warm up (1)

rocjoe71 (545053) | about 10 years ago | (#9999415)

For crap's sake, factories and farming have been extracting water from Lake Ontario and the rivers that feed it (Don River, Humber, Etobicoke) for decades, why did you pick now to start whining about it?


Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9999407)

3 I WAN 2 FUK U!

Cool, but not new (2, Informative)

sita (71217) | about 10 years ago | (#9999412)

I get lots of hits for "fjärrkyla" (sv. "city grid cooling", what ever the term is in English) on Google [] .

For example Fortum [] (Energy company in Sweden and Finland).

GNAA Announces Victory over Apple Community (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about 10 years ago | (#9999440)

San Francisco, California - Just three days after being the first in
the world to leak photos of Apple's upcoming revision to MacOS X, version 10.4,
Steve Jobs announced to the world facts about the new Operating System
consistent with information leaked by elite GNAA operator Gary Niger and
prospective member Ron Delsner.

"We've pulled it off!", noted Niger during Jobs' announcement at Apple's
Worldwide Developers Conference. "The GNAA plan was clever from the start with
this one I think. When we received our leaked copy of the OS, we knew that by
releasing only partial information and some screenshots, the association people
would make with the GNAA would lead them to believe the screenshots were fake.
Now that Steve 'Rim' Jobs has verified everything we leaked, we have managed to
fool the entire Mac community. In essense, a few hundred thousand people have
been trolled, a few hundred thousand people have lost. Though I do wish they
have a nice day"

"I don't think it could have worked out any better; Every single one of the
features shown in our screenshots, particularly Dashboard, which everybody
called as fake, was demoed by Jobs. This is my revenge for being beat up on the
rent", quoted Ron Delsner on being approached by reporters. "I've been wanting
to join the Gay Nigger Association of America for quite some time, and knew
that I help pull off something big if they were to let me in."

Delsner was right, as upon hearing this, Gary Niger immediately produced a vial
of what he called the "Holy Gay Nigger Seed" from his front pocket, and asked
Ron to kneel, at which time the Seed was poured upon Ron's head, making him an
official member of the GNAA. Noticing the television cameras present in the
press room, Gary cited that this was in fact the first televised induction of a
member into the GNAA.

"But back to the troll", Niger said quickly after. "I had a sneaking suspicion
that the homosexual caucasians of the Mac community would feel threatened by
the GNAA's massive nigger cocks and immediately cast doubts upon any
screenshots we produced for them. I saw this as an opportunity to troll
hundreds of thousands of people. It just goes to show that GNAA is greater than
j00, and that fristage postage is mine."

And Niger certainly did not fail it, as can be seen from the following excerpts
taken from various Internet website's covering the leak: - "In fact, it was the source that led many users to call the
shots fake; the information in that story, as well as this one, was provided by
Gary Niger and Ron Delsner of the GNAA, an organization that deals in
crapfloods and Slashdot trolling." - "Enjoy the photoshop work. I seriously don't think Apple
would be so crazy to use those jargons." - "Hmm... Information by "Gary Niger" of GNAA. Sounds too stupid
to be true. And that dashboard thing? Hogwash me thinks ..." - "I immediately thought of them when I saw "GNAA". Anyone who
reads Slashdot would be familiar with them - they put big spam posts
everywhere. Yes, and it doesn't surprise me. I don't think the screenshots are
real (at least not the Dashboard ones), but I have no trouble believing the

Kim Kap Sol on said "I can guarantee those are fake." He then
continued by saying "Hello I R Korea KEKEKEKE OMG ZERG RUSH GOGOGOGO ^_^"

Gary's reply to this was "Way to make a complete idiot of yourself you
dog-eating douchebag."

Steve Jobs was unavailable for comment immediately following the keynote
address, though WWDC attendee and GNAA member Porfa noticed "A cute wiggle in
Jobs' ass as he walked away."

About Apple

Apple Computer is the creator of the Macintosh, popularly known as the "gay
computer". 87% of GNAA members are Mac users. Founded in 1974 by Steve Jobs and
Steve Wozniak, Apple was nearly out of business in the mid 90's, when Jobs was
rehired. He then started the now infamous iGay marketing scheme which involved
both the Step 2 ???? Profit model, and a 100% effort towards marketing towards

About GNAA:
organization which gathers GAY NIGGERS from all over America and abroad for one
common goal - being GAY NIGGERS.

Are you GAY [] ?
Are you a NIGGER [] ?
Are you a GAY NIGGER [] ?

If you answered "Yes" to all of the above questions, then GNAA (GAY NIGGER
) might be exactly what you've been looking for!
all the benefits of being a full-time GNAA member.
GAY NIGGER community with THOUSANDS of members all over United States of
America and the World! You, too, can be a part of GNAA if you join

Why not? It's quick and easy - only 3 simple steps!
  • First, you have to obtain a copy of GAYNIGGERS FROM OUTER SPACE THE MOVIE [] and watch it. You can download the movie [] (~130mb) using BitTorrent.
  • Second, you need to succeed in posting a GNAA First Post [] on [] , a popular "news for trolls" website.
  • Third, you need to join the official GNAA irc channel #GNAA on, and apply for membership.

Talk to one of the ops or any of the other members in the channel to sign up
! Upon submitting your application, you will be required to submit
links to your successful First Post, and you will be tested on

If you are having trouble locating #GNAA, the official GAY NIGGER
irc channel, you might be on a wrong irc network.
The correct network is NiggerNET, and you can connect to as our official server. Follow this link [irc] if you are using an irc client such as mIRC.

If you have mod points and would like to support GNAA, please moderate this post up.
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