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Gates Explains Longhorn Delay, Diet

timothy posted more than 10 years ago | from the trial-balloons-make-good-targets dept.

Windows 619

An anonymous reader writes "Microsoft has set late 2006 as the deadline for shipping Longhorn, but to make that date, it had to delay the full implementation of WinFS, an ambitious file system geared at letting users search through all of their files at once. In this interview with Bill Gates, he provides a summary of why Microsoft decided to drop WinFS, saying: "WinFS, I'd be the first to say, is very ambitious. Nobody has ever brought together the world of documents, media and structured information in giving you one simple set of verbs that lets you richly find, move around and replicate those things." Meanwhile, MS Watch has published Longhorn head-honcho Jim Allchin's memo on why some Longhorn features had to be axed."

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Free Ads / Free Betas (5, Insightful)

Davak (526912) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107627)

Press releases like these are free ads for Microsoft. Does anybody here not think that Microsoft knew this was going to get released:

We will not cut corners on product excellence. Our powerful vision is intact; our shipment plan changes will let customers get access to parts of the vision faster.

Why don't they just admit that the market is forcing them to release parts of Longhorn (like Monad) [tech-recipes.com] earilier than expected! Leaks of betas and press releases like these are easy ways to keep the Microsoft buzz elevated.

If they didn't release a product until 2008, the market (mostly linux) would have time to catch-up.

Re:Free Ads / Free Betas (5, Insightful)

lachlan76 (770870) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107641)

Do you really think a site full of Linux people, run on Linux computers, and owned by a Linux company is the place to advertise Microsoft software effectively?

Re:Free Ads / Free Betas (3, Insightful)

diesterne (644827) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107742)

Do you really think the content of the interview will be exclusively available on zdnet and /.? There are a few more sites on the net (who will link to the article (though I don't doubt that most of them are run on Linux machines))

Remember: Every news is good news.

catch-up? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10107657)

Thats the problem with you linux zealots. Always playing "catch-up". Why not try to innovate something yourself?

I predict that within 6 months of Longhorn release, all the sudden Linux "distroz" will start having "sidebars" on them. I suppose you cant do it yet since MS is still developing/enhancing theirs.

If you always copy MS just because of their superior research budget, you will ALWAYS be a step behind.

Re:catch-up? (2, Funny)

Tomahawk (1343) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107676)

It already does. I've had a sidebar on my desktop for the last 5 years, thanks to gnome.

Oh, wait, do that mean that MS are now copying Linux...?

T.

Re:catch-up? (2, Insightful)

heffrey (229704) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107699)

Does that mean that MS are now copying Linux...?

I hope not because then I'd have to start worrying about whether my device will be compatible with my computer.

Re:catch-up? (3, Interesting)

jkrise (535370) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107681)

I guess Linux coders copy MS features for the benefit of those who wish to migrate - not to enhance the power and usability of the OS itself. Secondly, these changes would take a few days in Linux (KDE or GNome); not years as with Microsoft.

-

Re:catch-up? (5, Insightful)

BoldAC (735721) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107700)

Obviously you are trolling but this is a common belief...

However, Monad is obviously a way that Microsoft is trying to catch-up with the powerful scripting ability of *nix shells.

Of couse, some linux installs with have sidebars and other copies of new longhorn features. Longhorn will likely gain some new linux-like features between now and then as well... It's just the features race.

In competitive software markets one product will always try to match the bells and whistles of similiar products. For example, IE gained pop-up blocking.

Talent borrows, genius steals.

AC

Re:Free Ads / Free Betas (4, Interesting)

jkrise (535370) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107661)

If they didn't release a product until 2008, the market (mostly linux) would have time to catch-up.

If MS did nothing innovative before 2006, it (Microsoft) will have to do the catch-up.

-

You should have read the fine print.. (5, Insightful)

Kjella (173770) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107750)

If MS did nothing innovative before 2006, it (Microsoft) will have to do the catch-up.

He said "the market", you're talking of "the product". Those two are unfortunately nowhere as closely related as one might wish...

Kjella

Re:Free Ads / Free Betas (3, Interesting)

VeryProfessional (805174) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107672)

If they didn't release a product until 2008, the market (mostly linux) would have time to catch-up.

Catch up? Because Linux doesn't [gnu.org] have [tcsh.org] any [zsh.org] command shells...

Seriously, it seems to me that Windows is less and less about operating systems. WinFS was the major new OS feature, and it's been shelved. Looks like we're waiting all these years for adequate security, a new window manager and a bunch of wizards. That's right, and a new command shell. Forgive for not getting too excited.

new concept (5, Funny)

mirko (198274) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107629)

So, in his (apocryphous) diary, he mentioned being the inventor of product pre-announcement, now he's just invented the post-pre-announcement.
Way to go, Bill :)

What about Meta-tags? (5, Insightful)

djsmiley (752149) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107630)

"Nobody has ever brought together the world of documents, media and structured information in giving you one simple set of verbs that lets you richly find, move around and replicate those things."

Wasn't this the whole idea behind meta-tags for files? I thought thats why we had such tags in windows media too?

Or is this the same tags that winFS will use to search with?

Re:What about Meta-tags? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10107769)

One word . . . BeFS

Re:What about Meta-tags? (4, Interesting)

ClippyHater (638515) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107774)

IMO, the whole idea behind winFS is to take all of that structured information (meta-tags, perhaps?) and allow complex queries on it ("richly find").

However, the problem they're probably facing is making such potentially complicated queries easy for "grandma." Most programmers I've worked with have trouble creating SQL queries that do exactly what they want it to for complex results, how on earth will grandma find anything?

It'll be really interesting to see how they solve that problem.

MSFT vs. LNUX, which would you buy? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10107635)

VA Software [msn.com] stock plunged another 3% on May 14, as investors scrambled to cut their losses amid another disappointing earnings report and rumors of SEC investigations swirled around the troubled company. "It appears they have no business model. It involves giving stuff away for free, a bunch of question marks, and then a profit statement".

Another analyst added, "they pay 5 guys to sit around and post blog entries to the internet. They don't even write their own content; they just cut and paste what other people send them. They don't even correct glaring spelling errors or correct obvious factual inconsistencies".

Furthermore, industry pundits [linspire.com] have also revealed the truth around the questionable business practices being exposed by the lack of demand for LNUX stock. It appears that Linux's own community [tuxfiles.org] has begun to change their collective viewpoint.

"If linux is so great", said one, "why did they change their name from VA Linux [linuxtoday.com] "?

Arg, I'm blind! (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10107637)

[url=http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/08/30/0 244236]This article, sans color scheme[/url], karma whore free via Anon. Coward.

Nobody? (5, Informative)

HoneyBunchesOfGoats (619017) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107640)

"WinFS, I'd be the first to say, is very ambitious. Nobody has ever brought together the world of documents, media and structured information in giving you one simple set of verbs that lets you richly find, move around and replicate those things."

Maybe Bill considered them nobodies... [wikipedia.org]

Tiger Anyone (5, Informative)

millahtime (710421) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107722)

So, what we have been shown in the next release of OSX Tiger that lets you search your documents, email and file system isn't anything like this. We have seen it in action and the set release date is 2005.

Come on Bill....Steve can pull this off and he doesn't have 50 billion in the bank.

Re:Tiger Anyone (5, Informative)

HoneyBunchesOfGoats (619017) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107768)

"...what we have been shown in the next release of OSX Tiger ... isn't anything like this."

Actually, it's a lot like this. Apple hired Dominic Giampalo, one of the BeFS's creators, to work on their new file system. While it certainly won't be exactly the same, I'm sure a resemblance will be apparent, due to their common progenitor.

THANK you (2, Interesting)

ForresterInc (785824) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107738)

I thought I was the only one who remembered BeFS had this feature already. I mentioned it to a couple of (admittedly not-quite-as-geeky-as-me) buddies and they just stared at me.

Is there a word... (-1, Flamebait)

jkrise (535370) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107642)

From the article:

Nobody has ever brought together the world of documents, media and structured information in giving you one simple set of verbs that lets you richly find ....

I can't think of so many words strung together in such a meaningless way. Searching for ALL files? Even DOS could do that:

DIR C: /s/a

in Linux:

find / -name $string -print

Is LongHorn delayed bcos MS couldn't implement this simple stuff? I can't think of a word to describe this feeling of anger, fury and loathing combined. Any guesses?

-

Re:Is there a word... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10107696)

jkrise (535370) wrote:
> DIR C: /s/a
>
> in Linux:
>
> find / -name $string -print

Hate to be a nitpicker, but the equivalent to "DIR C: /s/a" is "find /".

Re:Is there a word... (3, Informative)

Johan Veenstra (61679) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107697)

It's not about finding files by filename, but about finding files by content.

Re:Is there a word... (0)

jkrise (535370) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107736)

Why not stick to the simple file extensions concept - in vogue since the DOS days?

-

you mean like 'spotlight'? (3, Insightful)

davesag (140186) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107796)

you mean like spotlight [apple.com] ?

Re:Is there a word... (1)

MarsDude (74832) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107797)

so if someone wants to find that movie with boobies on his drive.... he types 'find me movie with boobies' and the filesystem will find it for me?

cool

but .. ehm... doesn't it need keywords of some sort in the mediafile? It doesn't view my pron collection while i'm away does it?

you need some sort of metatags , id3 tags for every file... basically you build a database of descriptions yourself.

Re:Is there a word... (1)

vigilology (664683) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107703)

Search meta info.

Re:Is there a word... (5, Informative)

ricotest (807136) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107712)

Don't be silly. What they're looking at is something like GNOME Storage [gnome.org] where you can type in some search terms and semantically find the files.

Something like 1960s music or e-mails to Bruce, I'd guess. WinFS ties up all your documents, media, mails etc. into one database for indexing and searching, and beats the hell out of DIR C: /s/a.

Re:Is there a word... (-1, Troll)

jkrise (535370) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107748)

You mean to say this feature requires years to implement? For a company the size of Microsoft?

-

Re:Is there a word... (1)

Doppleganger (66109) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107716)

I can't think of so many words strung together in such a meaningless way.

What, didn't you get your Buzzword Bingo card on your way in? You'll never win with an attitude like that!

Re:Is there a word... (5, Insightful)

dioscaido (541037) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107723)

> Any guesses?

Yes, actually. That you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Come on, do you really believe that the windows development team would give that much weight and media time to a system that implemented find / -name $string -print?! And even then, that they couldn't hammer it out in a day? Please.

What they are looking to do is to integrate the filesystem into a database system, where files are organized not by directory, but by use/type/relationship. Even I have a hard time wrapping my head around what this will look like once it's carried out. What will it gain us in user experience? My gut says 'a lot' given the sheer amount of development time these people have put into the project.

I certainly feel anger, fury and loathing when simpletons critique what they don't understand.

Re:Is there a word... (2, Interesting)

FyRE666 (263011) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107741)

What they are looking to do is to integrate the filesystem into a database system, where files are organized not by directory, but by use/type/relationship. Even I have a hard time wrapping my head around what this will look like once it's carried out.

I just hope to god it doesn't end up like the Nautilus "Spacial browser" - maybe the worst idea of all time ;-)

Re:Is there a word... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10107788)

Even I have a hard time wrapping my head around what this will look like once it's carried out.

Download a copy of BeOS [bebits.com] , and give its Queries a play.

BeOS FS v1 did use a real DB, but was axed in latter versions, as it was too slow & bulky.

What will it gain us in user experience?

A LOT if applications use it, even more if they use attributes (all ready in NTFS) (see BeMail).

Re:Is there a word... (2, Insightful)

ceeam (39911) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107746)

AFAIK it's all about efficiency - we are talking about indexed searches. It's ok to grep 1MB, but even searching by filename on my whole HDD at home takes a minute maybe. As amount of stored data grows - we don't want the search times to grow linearly, we want indexed searches. Well - this said, the whole WinFS idea kinda sucked. It was intended to be applied only to "Documents and settings" and frankly - I guess I don't have anything of interest there. Why a simple (ok, _relatively_ simple) FS plugin, or rather a set of plugins for different file types, wouldn't suffice, I don't know. (May Reiser beat MS here?)

Re:Is there a word... (0)

Vilim (615798) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107775)

Will someone mod the parent down, he certainly shouldn't be insightful since he has no idea what he is talking about

Maybe you should find out a bit more about WinFS before you form an opinion of it. Or maybe this is just a very good troll. Who really knows?

Re:Is there a word... (-1, Flamebait)

Donny Smith (567043) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107799)

Don't know what's worse - stupidi comments like yours, or people who mod them insightful.

>Is LongHorn delayed bcos MS couldn't implement this simple stuff? I can't think of a word to describe this feeling of anger, fury and loathing combined. Any guesses?

My (correct) guess is that you're a clueless troll. WinFS is not a filesystem but a layer on top of it .
Your example with the find command (which searches for filenames) is laughable. Even if you had the brains to think up a better example (|| grep $string or such) it would still have been a total nonsense.

Via babelfish (4, Funny)

dackroyd (468778) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107645)

WinFS, I'd be the first to say, is very ambitious. Nobody has ever brought together the world of documents, media and structured information in giving you one simple set of verbs that lets you richly find, move around and replicate those things.

Translation:

We thought it was a good idea but no-one else has done an implementation that we can copy off, so we can't really figure out how to do it.

Can anyone explain exactly what will be in Longhorn, now that the new filesystem and graphics system is not going to be in it ?

Re:Via babelfish (0, Offtopic)

The Cydonian (603441) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107674)

Methinks you misspelt 'Babblefish'. :-)

Re:Via babelfish (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10107725)

methinks you don't know where the term babelfish comes from:P

Re:Via babelfish (4, Insightful)

ricotest (807136) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107688)

Well it's sure as hell not going to be an increase in stability or performance. From the interview:

What is really causing sort of the rewrite on Longhorn?
There's no rewrite going on here.

Things I can think of: the tacky sidebar, the 'My Games' et al. menus which will only work with a handful of Microsoft games, and the new GUI look and feel which is probably tied to Avalon. So nothing worth upgrading for, then ;)

Re:Via babelfish (4, Funny)

mr_z_beeblebrox (591077) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107717)

Can anyone explain exactly what will be in Longhorn, now that the new filesystem and graphics system is not going to be in it ?

All the great features of Windows 2003 plus the addition of a NEW logo and desktop theme!!!!

Re:Via babelfish (5, Funny)

StevenHenderson (806391) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107753)

Can anyone explain exactly what will be in Longhorn, now that the new filesystem and graphics system is not going to be in it ?

Bugs.

Re:Via babelfish (5, Informative)

phiwum (319633) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107755)

According Allchin's unbiased memo, here's what's new.


* The highest quality OS we have ever shipped

* New information management tools to improve productivity, including fast desktop search and new, intuitive ways to organize files

* Major security advances that build on Windows XP SP2, such as new technologies to make clients more resilient to attack, viruses and malware

* Flexible and powerful tools to reduce deployment costs for enterprise customers, including technologies for image creation, editing and installation; and much simpler upgrades for consumers

* Significant improvements in reliability, including a robust diagnostic infrastructure to detect, analyze and fix problems quickly, and new backup tools to keep data safe

* A platform that creates Developer excitement with the availability of rich APIs [application programming interfaces]


Feel the developer excitement yet? Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers!

Wow. Sorry. I didn't realize that Allchin's memo was so hypnotic. I started channeling some fat, sweaty monkey man there for a moment.

You mean like.... (1, Insightful)

Artie_Effim (700781) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107646)

updatedb and slocate, yeah that's it, just like that

Re:You mean like.... (4, Informative)

colinleroy (592025) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107751)

No. updatedb and slocate find on the filename, not contents.

Arg, I'm blind! (-1, Redundant)

FrYGuY101 (770432) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107648)

This article, sans color scheme [slashdot.org] , Karma whore free via Anonymous Coward.

Re:Arg, I'm blind! (-1, Redundant)

FrYGuY101 (770432) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107665)

Of course, it would have worked better had I actually clicked the "Post Anonymously" box.

D'oh!

Re:Arg, I'm blind! (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10107710)

You already did once [slashdot.org]

Re:Arg, I'm blind! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10107668)

Shame. You work out how to do the hyperlinks (this isn't phpBB, you know) then forget to tick the anonymous button... Not having a good day, are we?

Re:Arg, I'm blind! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10107776)

j00 4r3 teh 57up1|)

Avalon's gone too (5, Funny)

DrSkwid (118965) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107656)


So that's bye bye new file system
bye bye new GUI
bye bye new API

wtf is left ?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/08/27/microsoft_ decouples_longhorn/ [theregister.co.uk]

Re:Avalon's gone too (3, Insightful)

leomekenkamp (566309) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107683)

New system requirements?

Re:Avalon's gone too (1)

RenatoRam (446720) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107749)

And new prices!
(you silly!)

Re:Avalon's gone too (3, Interesting)

gl4ss (559668) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107720)

slowness.
slapped on eyecandy(ala xp).

but really, who didn't see this coming? that's just how they work at ms, if a product is "somewhere on the future" they'll announce all kinda funky crap their r&d crew finds on the net as the next big thing in their future product X.

then the features get axed because they actually have to start to think about getting it out the door!

Re:Avalon's gone too (4, Funny)

Xpilot (117961) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107735)


bye bye new GUI
bye bye new API


Ah, the Longhorn version of American Pie. Come on, what's the next verse?

Re:Avalon's gone too (2, Funny)

HoneyBunchesOfGoats (619017) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107784)

"The developer boys were thinking 'This will never fly', singing 'This will be the day Longhorn dies.'"?

Date-driven releases (5, Insightful)

ricotest (807136) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107659)

One is (that) we have a date-driven release. Things that make that date get in.

Previously Microsoft were skirting around the 2006-7 point without being clear about when Longhorn would ship; it looked like they were going to try to finish features X and Y before release. So now they've moved on to a date-driven release, we can pretty much guarantee 2006 for Longhorn (client edition) and they're going to drop anything they have to, to make that date.

Bill said that the OEMs are okay with the delay, so why the pressure? Looks like Linux is hurrying Microsoft up!

Re:Date-driven releases (1)

jkrise (535370) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107792)

I think there is no incentive for MS to produce anything now - certainly not fot the next 2 to 3 years. Why? New PCs from the top OEMs (atleast the desktops) are gonna carry XP; same for Office XP. There seems to be lots of new innovations in the Linux world and elsewhere, so MS can wait for a few years and decide what features they would copy in Longhorn.

Why would the OEMs or MS bother?

-

Microsoft's Copland? (4, Interesting)

Trurl's Machine (651488) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107663)

I must admit I'm getting more and more of the deja vu feeling, reading Microsoft's statements on Longhorn. I've seen it before, when Apple representatives struggled to explain the delay with shipping their ultimately sophisticated version of MacOS, codenamed Copland [wikipedia.org] . They understood all too well that the classic MacOS is a bloated unstable construction based on a single-user single-machine Macintosh System, that was not designed with networking and multitasking in mind. They managed somehow to hack this system to have a sort-of poor man's multitasking and also some rudimentary networking capabilities, but they knew it's not gonna last in the Internet Age. They needed a new system and they needed it ASAP. Yet after millions of bucks and years of coding, Copland turned out to be just nothing but very expensive vaporware, and Apple's last chance to survive was to purchase NeXT, with their Unix experience, and thus MacOS X was born.

There are many similarities with Windows and Longhorn - Microsoft also tried for a very long time to hack and upgrade their old OS, also designed for single user with no networking. And yet they were strangled by their own limitations they needed to keep for sake of backwards compatibility. Can they solve it on their own or will they just, say, buy Sun for their OS experience?

Re:Microsoft's Copland? (1)

jkrise (535370) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107711)

<i>will they just, say, buy Sun for their OS experience?</i>

What OS experience does Sun have on Intel? You mean Solaris? Even Sun seems to have given up that.

On a lighter note, if MS bought Sun, how can they embrace extend and extinguish Java?

-

Ummm ... AppleTalk? (2, Insightful)

SteveM (11242) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107718)

They understood all too well that the classic MacOS ... was not designed with networking and multitasking in mind.

We had our Mac Plus systems networked, along with a LaserWriter, in 1988 via AppleTalk.

SteveM

Re:Microsoft's Copland? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10107773)

So when does MS decide to dump their kernel in favor of BSD?

Does it matter!? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10107670)

I really don't see what difference it makes as long as longhorn is released in the next 4yrs. No matter how many computer-savvy people decide not to use it, it will still be THE os.

It will still be first preference on home computers and companies will still make plenty of software for it. I find it very hard to believe that microsoft suffers any real threat from linux. Yes I can see the benefits of linux, and the downsides of windows, but the fect alone that its the OS for the people is enough to keep it's standing, and Bill will never be able to squash linux completely so like I said, what does it matter!?

Re:Does it matter!? (1)

Hitchcock_Blonde (717330) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107709)

The very reason Windows is, as you say, THE OS is because of attitudes like yours.

Re:Does it matter!? (2, Interesting)

gnuLNX (410742) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107780)

4 years without a release....I think they might still be number 1 but the distribution would be much more like 60:40 Linux is really gaining traction now....more so than ever before. Barely a day goes buy that I don't see linux in business week, CNBC, Wall Street Journal, etc....I mean this little guy is taking off with wings and people are noticing...I predict almost total server domination within 5 years as well as some descent in roads int the World (Not USA only) desk top market by then..perhaps 20%

Re:Does it matter!? (5, Insightful)

Deusy (455433) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107787)

I really don't see what difference it makes as long as longhorn is released in the next 4yrs. No matter how many computer-savvy people decide not to use it, it will still be THE os.

It matters because the market is now aware of Linux, which it never previously was. It has major corporations backing and investing in it (IBM, Novell, HP Compaq, Sun) and it has not only mostly caught up with the "features" of Windows but has surpassed them and approaching the kind of features slated for Longhorn.

Just look at the 6.8 release of the X.org X11 server. With the composite extension and cairo you'll be able to do pretty much anything offered by the Longhorn GDI. Of course, it needs to mature, to be further tested, to be further accelerated, and to have enough applications developed for it to become useful... but I think between now and mid-to-late 2006 is more than enough time for that to happen. Add to that the network transparency of X and all of a sudden Microsoft will be playing catch-up in that respect.

Also, look at Storage and the various other FOSS projects working towards that goal. It looks like WinFS may even be late in that regard to, again playing catch up.

Put all this together with the market momentum Linux is gaining (don't be surprised if it hits double figures in terms of market share by 2006) and Microsoft's position as the dominant OS player will be under massive threat.

Also, they can't afford to fuck up again on this one. The world is getting very impatient with the whole security mess. It's simply costing businesses too much to keep on top of it. FOSS operating systems have a far better security record making them even more attractive.

I could go on and on, but Microsoft is betting their monopoly future on Longhorn. And the free desktop could literally beat it to the punch.

So, still NTFS??? (4, Insightful)

bcarl314 (804900) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107677)

I'm guessing this means that they'll be using some implementation of NTFS with longhorn. Could be good news to all those dual-boot people out there that like to be able to access their Windows files from Linux.

Just as they're making some progress with mounting NTFS filesystems under linux, MS changes the FS. Something which surely would cause problems in Linux.

Looks liks we'll be able to keep dual boots with Longhorn after all.

Re:So, still NTFS??? (5, Informative)

beady (710116) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107707)

It was always going to be NTFS, WinFS (Windows Future Storage) was a layer on top of NTFS used solely for items in "My Documents"

Re:So, still NTFS??? (1)

lachlan76 (770870) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107747)

Not My Documents, C:\Documents and Settings.

Almost the same, but C:\Documents and Settings includes (surprise) settings, as well as temporary files, browser cache, etc. which I may want to search.

Re:So, still NTFS??? (1)

beady (710116) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107757)

Heh, that's what I meant, but thanks for clearing it up to anyone else who thinks WinFS was the filesystem :)

Mandatory post (4, Funny)

Biotech9 (704202) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107687)

Introducing Microsoft Longhorn Millenium edition!

Preorder now and recieve a copy of Duke Nukem Forever!

Pointless (3, Interesting)

StevenHenderson (806391) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107689)

If people are waiting til 2006 anyways, Gates would have been smarter to delay Longhorn until WinFS could be totally implemented. If they need more money coming in on the conveyor belt, then they could have just released Windows XP OSR2 - essentially a service pack/ upgraded version people would have to pay for. I seriously doubt I will be paying for a cippled version of Longhorn - especially if its best parts are going to be made available for XP.

Looks like maybe MS should have spent a little more time getting WinFS working instead of tweaking the UI to make it "oh so pretty." Unfortunately, I think MS realizes that a slick (albeit graphics intensive) UI will likely sell more copies to the ignorant masses than an innovation like WinFS.

No-one ever did it eh? Ever hear of IFS? (4, Insightful)

Proudrooster (580120) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107691)

Nobody has ever brought together the world of documents, media and structured information in giving you one simple set of verbs that lets you richly find, move around and replicate those things.

Someone please call Oracle and tell Larry that Bill says that IFS (The Oracle Internet File System) [internetweek.com] doesn't exist.

What is iFS?
iFS can manage all content -- which is scattered across PC desktops, document management systems, and websites -- in a single repository, he said. It supports the storage and management of more than 150 different file types, including documents created using XML.

BeOS? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10107692)

"Nobody has ever brought together the world of documents, media and structured information in giving you one simple set of verbs that lets you richly find, move around and replicate those things."

Didn't BeOS have something similar?

Also, won't OSX actually have something like this even before Longhorn ships (without WinFS).

Aren't there a lot of pretty advanced projects to do the same for Linux, for example beagle for gnome and the new kde search feature planned for the next release? (Granted, these won't be implemented at the fs level, but who cares as long as they work)

Isn't reiserfs4 actually providing some of this functionality (and much more) and has allready been released?

Doesn't MS have about 60 billion Dollars in the bank and still can't get its act together?

Didn't MS talk about something similar already years ago and wanted to ship it with what is now known as Win2000?

Re:BeOS? (2, Informative)

HoneyBunchesOfGoats (619017) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107733)

"...won't OSX actually have something like this even before Longhorn ships[?]"

Yes. Dominic Giampalo, one of the creators of the BeFS, now works for Apple.

iTunes-like? (4, Interesting)

Pascal Sartoretti (454385) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107693)

Nobody has ever brought together the world of documents, media and structured information in giving you one simple set of verbs that lets you richly find, move around and replicate those things

Maybe he should have a look at iTunes and GMail.

For me, a kind of "iTunes for files", including smart queries, would be fairly enough. And it doesn't require a brand new file system and its instability risks...

Ysou FAILN it (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10107695)

Exactly... (3, Funny)

Zx-man (759966) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107702)

...should I mention that WinFS could be efficiently emulated in almost _any_ other operating system, using the disk-based file system (compare to the *nix disks-in-the-directory-tree one):
1) Remove all the directory structures, except the one required by operating system
2) Dump all of your data files to the root directory of the system disk
3) Use the ``find'' function to navigate 'em!

And voila, you've got the tech of future, today!

Faster, better searching? (2, Insightful)

jmcmunn (307798) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107713)

Does anyone else hope that this new way of searching is actually an improvement this time? I hate the new search interface in Windows XP. For awhile I actually changed it back to the search interface from Windows 2000 (reg hack) but then finally decided that I better get used to the new one, since they would likely take away my reg hack down the road anyway.

Let's hope for an actual improvement this time around.

Re:Faster, better searching? (1)

lachlan76 (770870) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107760)

Seeing how they always go for backwards compatibility, why would they take it [the registry hack] out?

search pc (4, Funny)

MarsDude (74832) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107715)

imagine that... treating everything as files...

how inovative... ;-)

Re:search pc (1)

julesh (229690) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107794)

imagine that... treating everything as files...

Actually, I think it only treats files as files.

Smell that? (1)

Penguin2212 (173380) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107729)

"WinFS, I'd be the first to say, is very ambitious. Nobody has ever brought together the world of documents, media and structured information in giving you one simple set of verbs that lets you richly find, move around and replicate those things."

Smells like vaporware to me....

Reiser4 (4, Interesting)

msh104 (620136) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107730)

winFS doens't seem very usefull in my eyes. it's just a layer on top of ntfs. in the end (windows 2012) you'll see they rewrite it to be a true filesystem. reiser4 seems to do this the right way. having a nice filesystem that you can extend all the time using plugins. I think microsoft wastes a lot of time by doing this in 2 steps. I also understood that winFS is "My Documents" only (or something like that) and cannot be used on the entire harddisk (atleast not in longhorn).

Future of Free/Open Source and Software (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10107731)

I think free/open source software won't completely eliminate proprietary software because the latter business model has advantage in research forces. Anyway it is not necessary to make all software free. The prevailance of a free operating system is the key.

Re:Future of Free/Open Source and Software (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10107761)

Microsoft has a strong research army getting patents for useful designs all the time. I think researchers and developers who are in support of open source should use the same weapon - patents to fight against microsoft for the OS market share.

Old bugs will bug you a long time... (0, Troll)

vi (editor) (791442) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107737)

One problem with Konghorn is that they want to put security onto the Windows architecture. However this can be an endless source of problems. The Windows architecture is not secure beforehand. And integrating a security layer is doomed to be complicated and half-backery. They had already to change their security scheme because it turned out to be too slow (on a 3 GHz Pentium mind you).
The cleanest way would be to scrap the Windows architecture and rebuild the OS from bottom. But their popularity will bite their back and asses: this would breake approx 3.5 million applications and even simple stuff like Virtual Basic.
It's quite a shame as Gates could use a free, non-viral operating like OpenBSD as the basis for a new Windows version. This can be done as Apple has shown and the superior security and performance features of OpenBSD would make the WinOpenBSD the best system in teh world.
However, this would have the negative side effect they we would never see Linux on the desktop as OpenBSD is much better in the security and performance aspects and with the fool-safe user interface of Windows XP added it would really be a killer. And the user interface should be even more improved in the next version of Windows as MS is very hot in reseach there.

Re:Old bugs will bug you a long time... (1)

lachlan76 (770870) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107779)

The cleanest way would be to scrap the Windows architecture and rebuild the OS from bottom. But their popularity will bite their back and asses: this would breake approx 3.5 million applications and even simple stuff like Virtual Basic

Not to mention that this would give a release date of about...ohhh...2012

biggest vaporware ever ! (1)

phreakv6 (760152) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107740)

so it was removed for meeting the 2006 deadline which is
around 2 years approx from now.The next thing you know Bill would decide to drop
avalon, and some of his fancy keywords.So by 2006 Bill would have come up with the
biggest vaporware ever.
Kill Bill

Tiger's Spotlight, anyone? (3, Interesting)

Cyrus Dogstar (540037) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107743)

WinFS, I'd be the first to say, is very ambitious. Nobody has ever brought together the world of documents, media and structured information in giving you one simple set of verbs that lets you richly find, move around and replicate those things.

*cough* [apple.com]

Microsoft still can't come up with shit until Apple has done it better, first. Sad.

Correction of the press release (4, Insightful)

MemoryDragon (544441) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107764)

Nobody except the people who brought you BeOS and Hans reiser has done a filesystem like WinFS :-) WinFS is a blatant ripoff of the BeOS filesystem.

The slow painful death of Microsoft (4, Insightful)

Deep Fried Geekboy (807607) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107772)

What Microsoft REALLY needs is a next-gen OS. The current codebase isn't going to hack it. The delays on Longhorn are an absolute giveaway. If Longhorn had come out in 2004, it would already have been out of date. 2006? Don't make me laugh.

Unix-like systems are going to win out in the end. That is why Mac's OS X looks like a smarter move every day.

Microsoft has so much cash and so much clout that it will take a long time to die, but it is doomed to do so unless at some point it ditches backwards compatibility and the current codebase and does something new.

WinFS bad? (4, Insightful)

spuzzzzzzz (807185) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107778)

Does anyone else think WinFS is a Bad Thing? A filesystem is a low-level, simple, reliable method of storing files on a disk and a database is a method of catologuing and searching through files. If you combine them, it will get hideously complicated. Which means it will probably be buggy and slow. It's almost as bad as putting windowing in a kernel...

What about WinFS specifications ? (1)

Mr Europe (657225) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107781)

Well MS could publish the WinFS specifications so that we can get the OSS partition managers ready....

Does this mean? (2, Funny)

Zapdos (70654) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107786)

That Micro$oft will be making Windows XP OSR2, followed by Windows XP ME?

Cursed! (1)

ziegast (168305) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107790)

As soon as someone uses the word "rich" in a marketing description for a product or technology, it's doomed to fail to live up to expectations.

Apple's Mac OS X wins again... (1)

rainwadj (58293) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107793)

"WinFS, I'd be the first to say, is very ambitious. Nobody has ever brought together the world of documents, media and structured information in giving you one simple set of verbs that lets you richly find, move around and replicate those things."

Apple's upcoming Mac OS X Tiger is slated to include similar technology. Apple calls it "Spotlight", and more information is available here [apple.com] . Of course, it's still vaporware until they actually SHIP it , but Apple is scheduled to ship Tiger during the first half of 2005 -- at least a year ahead of Longhorn.

Goggle FS.. (1)

ciupman (413849) | more than 10 years ago | (#10107798)

If you use GoggleFs you won't have any problems searching for files and it's contents ...
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