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Miguel de Icaza Debates Avalon with an Avalon Designer

CowboyNeal posted more than 10 years ago | from the in-yo-face dept.

Programming 419

Karma Sucks writes "In an interesting debate with a Microsoft employee, Miguel points out some crucial flaws in Microsoft's Avalon strategy. Perhaps the most shocking revelation is the absolutely horrendous inheritence hierarchy exposed by the Avalon API. Miguel himself is clearly not amused, saying 'We do not want to waste our time with dead-end APIs as we are vastly under-resourced, so we must choose carefully.'"

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first postage! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10208650)

here comes timbuktoo!

Re:first postage! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10208912)

Microsoft should follow the lead of the FGOSS community and just ignor that Spanish airhead and GNOME-ruiner.

Hear me, Miguel? We don't need you! yuo r teh suxx0r!

Re:first postage! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10209041)

Microsoft should follow the lead of the FGOSS community and just ignor that Spanish airhead and GNOME-ruiner.Microsoft should follow the lead of the FGOSS community and just ignor that Spanish airhead and GNOME-ruiner.Microsoft should follow the lead of the FGOSS community and just ignor that Spanish airhead and GNOME-ruiner.Microsoft should follow the lead of the FGOSS community and just ignor that Spanish airhead and GNOME-ruiner.Microsoft should follow the lead of the FGOSS community and just ignor Microsoft should follow the lead of the FGOSS community and just ignor that Spanish airhead and GNOME-ruiner.that Spanish airhead and GNOME-ruiner.Microsoft should follow the lead of the FGOSS community and just ignor that Spanish airhead and GNOME-ruiner.
Microsoft should follow the lead of the FGOSS community and just ignor that Spanish airhead and GNOME-ruiner.Microsoft should follow the lead of the FGOSS community and just ignor that Spanish airhead and GNOME-ruiner.Microsoft should follow the lead of the FGOSS community and just ignor that Spanish airhead and GNOME-ruiner.Microsoft should follow the lead of the FGOSS community and just ignor that Spanish airhead and GNOME-ruiner.
Welcome
lter encountered.
Your comment violated the "postercomment" compression filter. Try less whitespace and/or less repetition. Comment aborted.
ur comment violated the "postercomment" compression filter. Try le Welcome to Slashdot

Please provide feedback below:



7 Name:

Email:

Comment:

Note the action element of the tag points to form.py/email. We are going to create a file called form.py, like this:

import smtplib

WEBMASTER = "webmaster" # webmaster e-mail
SMTP_SERVER = "localhost" # your SMTP server

def email(req, name, email, comment):

# make sure the user provided all the parameters
if not (name and email and comment):
return "A required parameter is missing, \
please go back and correct the error"

# create the message text
msg = """\
From: %s
Subject: feedback
To: %s

I have the following comment:

%s

Thank You,

%s

""" % (email, WEBMASTER, comment, name)

# send it out
conn = smtplib.SMTP(SMTP_SERVER)
conn.sendmail(email, [WEBMASTER], msg)
conn.quit()

# provide feedback to the user
s = """\

Dear %s,

Thank You for your kind comments, we
will get back to you shortly.

""" % name

return s

When the user clicks the Submit button, the publisher handler will load the email function in the form module, passing it the form fields as keyword arguments. It will also pass the request object as req.

Note that you do not have to have req as one of the arguments if you do not need it. The publisher handler is smart enough to pass your function only those arguments that it will accept.

The data is sent back to the browser via the return value of the function.

Even though the Publisher handler simplifies mod_python programming a great deal, all the power of mod_python is still available to this program, since it has access to the request object. You can do all the same things you can do with a ``native'' mod_python handler, e.g. set custom headers via req.headers_out, return errors by raising apache.SERVER_ERROR exceptions, write or read directly to and from the client via req.write() and req.read(), etc.

Read Section 6.1 Publisher Handler for more information on the publisher handler.

Previous Page Up One Level Next Page Mod_python Manual Contents Index
Previous: 3. Tutorial Up: 3. Tutorial Next: 3.2 Quick Overview of Release 3.1.3, documentation updated on February 17, 2004. t aborted.

move along nothign to see here? (-1, Offtopic)

n08ody (162000) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208651)

been trying to read more for a few minutes. first time i see that mesg instead of the story.

Re:move along nothign to see here? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10209068)

This is so that only subscribers (read: the GNAA [gnaa.us] ) get a chance to make the Fristy Psot. The others will most likely FAIL IT!! OMG!!

first (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10208652)

post

Hmmm... (5, Funny)

NEOtaku17 (679902) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208665)

The Microsoft employee's take on security:

" I totally agree, this is a huge issue. Phishing attacks, spyware, malware, viruses, and more are out there and probably the largest problem facing computer science today. This isn't a Microsoft, Linux, or Java issue - this is a "good guys" issue. Windows XP SP2 is probably the best response to Miguel's security concerns. The integrated firewall, security center, and dozens of other security related features are really the first line of defense. After the basics are resolved there, I would say that the new enhancements to the security system in Avalon are a great step. Not only is Avalon built from the ground up to be secure, but we are enhancing the security system for better application level security, and simpler more understandable presentation of security decisions to the user (hopefully in most cases this means no decision). As to the specific issue of Phishng that Miguel brings up, that is still mostly a research level issue, which I'd love to see creative solutions to. In Windows today there is the secure desktop, but you must press Ctrl+Alt+Delete to get to it first. "

Re:Hmmm... (-1, Troll)

stratjakt (596332) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208722)

Hmm what? MSFT has been pretty honest about their past designs and it's security flaws as of late.

Slashdotters could pull their heads out of Tux's feathery ass and look around for a minute and see that for themselves.

Re:Hmmm... (5, Funny)

savagedome (742194) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208745)

Slashdotters could pull their heads out of Tux's feathery ass and look around for a minute and see that for themselves

*Pulls head out of Tux's feathery ass*

*looks around*

Nah. Nothing to like here.

*goes back into Tux's feathery ass*

Re:Hmmm... (5, Interesting)

suckmysav (763172) | more than 10 years ago | (#10209029)

"MSFT has been pretty honest about their past designs and it's security flaws as of late."

If by "honest" you mean they have admitted there is a problem and have offered up some near useless hand-waving gestures (XP-SP2) as a solution then you would be correct.

The real problem they have, a problem that they have been decidedly dishonest about (or pig-ignorant of, take your pick) is that their OS is insecure by design. This is all due to the monolithic design philosophy that their Windows OS is built around. The way they have enginneered it to have every goddamned bell and whistle tied directly into the base OS is just asking for trouble. All you need is a flaw in one of your applications, IE being the classic example, and the entire OS is compromised.

Cosnider this paragraph taken from an article at The Register [theregister.co.uk] , which was written by an engineer involved in the creation and deployment of Combat Management Systems for use in Royal Navy Warships. I think we can assume he has some clue about what he is talking about. He said this;

"In April 2002, Bill Gates, acting as Microsoft's Chief Software Architect, gave extensive testimony under oath to the US Courts. Gates's testimony included description of the current structure of Microsoft Windows. Snubbing fifty years of progress in computer science, the current structure of Windows abandoned the accepted principles of modular design and reverted instead to the, much deprecated, entangled monolithic approach. Paragraphs 207 to 223 are particularly revealing about Microsoft's chosen approach (paragraph 216 is difficult to believe!).* Anyone with elementary knowledge of computer science can see that Microsoft Windows, as described here by Gates, is inherently insecure by design. If this is a flagship Operating System, then Dijkstra's life was in vain."

For Microsoft to get truly serious (and honest) about security, they will have to totally change their design philosophy, a philosophy that was chosen not based on it's technical mereits, but on its ability to stop the DoJ from breaking Windows up into it's seperate components.

This is the Great Lie that Microsoft is telling the world.

PLEASE STOP WITH THE SENSELESS LINKS ALREADY (-1, Offtopic)

null etc. (524767) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208731)

This is a call to arm, sent out to all sensible /.ers. PLEASE, DO NOT embed senseless links within your story submission. It goes against the ethics of every data purist out there to have to mouse over words like "interesting" and "debate", carefully examining the status bar URL, to find out WTF that link points to. Enough already.

Re:PLEASE STOP WITH THE SENSELESS LINKS ALREADY (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10209080)

This [reference.com] is [reference.com] a [reference.com] call [reference.com] to [reference.com] arm [reference.com] , sent [reference.com] out [reference.com] to [reference.com] all [reference.com] sensible [reference.com] /.ers [reference.com] . PLEASE [reference.com] , DO [reference.com] NOT [reference.com] embed [reference.com] senseless [reference.com] links [reference.com] within [reference.com] your [reference.com] story [reference.com] submission [reference.com] . It [reference.com] goes [reference.com] against [reference.com] the [reference.com] ethics [reference.com] of [reference.com] every [reference.com] data [reference.com] purist [reference.com] out [reference.com] there [reference.com] to [reference.com] have [reference.com] to [reference.com] mouse [reference.com] over [reference.com] words [reference.com] like [reference.com] "interesting [reference.com] " and [reference.com] "debate [reference.com] ", carefully [reference.com] examining [reference.com] the [reference.com] status [reference.com] bar [reference.com] URL [reference.com] , to [reference.com] find [reference.com] out [reference.com] WTF [reference.com] that [reference.com] link [reference.com] points [reference.com] to [reference.com] . Enough [reference.com] already [reference.com] .

Re:PLEASE STOP WITH THE SENSELESS LINKS ALREADY (1, Funny)

aussie_a (778472) | more than 10 years ago | (#10209115)

You mis-spelt arms. You typed "arm" when it should be "arms."

Re:PLEASE STOP WITH THE SENSELESS LINKS ALREADY (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10209382)

I agree with the parent. "Arms" is mispelled. However, the parent neglected to provide a link [reference.com] to the corrected word.

Re:Hmmm... (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10209005)

Sample XP SP2 Firewall rule:

netsh firewall set portopening TCP 445 SUBNET

OR

netsh firewall set portopening TCP 445 ALL

OR

accept the XP SP2 default and live with a machine ye can't remotely admin on yer win2k network.

XP secutiry.

Re:Hmmm... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10209286)

Phishing attacks, spyware, malware, viruses, and more are out there and probably the largest problem facing computer science today. This isn't a Microsoft, Linux, or Java issue - this is a "good guys" issue.

Same ol' shit from Microsoft. This isn't a design issue, this isn't an implementation issue; this is a "good guys versus bad guys" issue that is independent of the platform.

Well, bullcrap! Microsoft simply cannot hide the fact that their design is flawed, their implementation is flawed and their entire product is a piece of crap from the basement up! Unless and until they abandon the fundamental flaws in their design and implementation process at Microsoft, I see no hope for the vast majority of computer users!

Joe Beda talks the talk.... (-1, Troll)

regressiontest (811202) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208666)

Joe Beda had said that Avalon is going to be more of an advanced UI/Visualization toolkit, while Dx will continue to contain all the other serious stuff.

Now, it looks like Avalon can do 3d on it's own and maybe more too -- what's the idea behind this anyway?

Are they trying to get a fresh new API or something? It seems unlikely, since I remember Joe and Scobles saying that they will probably be using Dx for serious graphics and game development. The redundancy seems strange.

From the presentation --

Avalon 3-D are not a replacement for Direct3D
You will find Avalon 3-D useful if:
- You want to integrate 3-D seamlessly into an Avalon app that also contains 2-D content, controls, etc.
- Platform features like Remote Desktop and multimon are high priorities for you
- You want to easily add 3-D functionality without quickly without needing to learn how the graphics hardware works

You will find DirectX useful if:
- You want access to all of the features provided by the graphics hardware
- You want to have full control over how your scene is stored and managed in memory
- Plan for interop between Direct3D and Avalon
Render Direct3D in a HWND and host within Avalon

So basically it seems to help ease the creation of bells and whistles, more than anything. Weird.

And oh, completely offtopic -- what's the deal with saying, work fine in OOorg -- shouldn't that be works fine with OO? Why the org/.org thingy?

Avalon is SVG based so its rendered in 3d (1)

cybrthng (22291) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208706)

unlike the current pixel based 2d rendering system of today.

Not necessarily 3d as in "3 dimmensional" but on the other hand not necessarily restricted to what we can 2d either :)

Re:Avalon is SVG based so its rendered in 3d (5, Informative)

cybrthng (22291) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208738)

with further explanation that means it can use the 3d acceleration of your video card and interface with directx as part of the graphics api to accelerate/render your desktop.

Re:Avalon is SVG based so its rendered in 3d (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10208846)

Care to explain WTF that has to do with SVG?

Re:Avalon is SVG based so its rendered in 3d (5, Informative)

k98sven (324383) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208814)

unlike the current pixel based 2d rendering system of today.

Um... say what?
Ok, to begin with Avalon doesn't support SVG, which is one of the things Miguel was blasting them for.

Secondly.. 2D rendering is not 'pixel based' today.
It's never been 'pixel based'. Windows has had device-independent 2D rendering since.. well, forever. (Windows Metafiles ring a bell?) So has just about everything else (Mac, Atari) too, (X doesn't, but the Unix platform tended to use PostScript for that stuff).

What is new here is the support of more advanced things like compositing (something you couldn't do device-independently before). OS X already has this of course in Quartz.

Re:Avalon is SVG based so its rendered in 3d (1)

cybrthng (22291) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208887)

uhmm.. SVG is part of the avalon concept done through the XAML interface. Avalon is part of XAML which is part of many microsoft visions for its longhorn and future products

http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/issues/04/01/A va lon/default.aspx

As for 2d rendering, it has always been pixel/bitmap fill based and not vector based.

http://wwws.sun.com/software/xml/developers/svg/

Re:Avalon is SVG based so its rendered in 3d (5, Informative)

k98sven (324383) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208981)

SVG is part of the avalon concept done through the XAML interface.

Except that Microsoft does not follow the SVG standard. So it's not SVG, it's just similar.

As for 2d rendering, it has always been pixel/bitmap fill based and not vector based.

Again, you are wrong. Although you seem to believe it, SVG isn't the first vector graphics format in existance. Not by a long shot. (PostScript is from 1984) Nor is Avalon the first device-independent 2D-graphics API.

Providing a ref to the SVG spec doesn't make it true.

Ok? Now, I've contributed fixes to Apache Batik, (an SVG library) and I've also written PostScript generators, and most recently I've contributed stuff to the Java2D library for libgcj. (another 2D library which is not 'pixel based')

I do believe I know something of vector graphics.

Re:Avalon is SVG based so its rendered in 3d (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10209191)

i like your sig

Re:Joe Beda talks the talk.... (4, Informative)

DraconPern (521756) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208760)

DirectX isn't just graphics. It is also networking, realtime input, sound, etc. Have you ever tried creating a GUI with DirectX? It is hard because you don't get the standard controls. What Avalon does is bridge that gap and bring 3D to the GUI controls (eg, outside the client area). Direct3D will only render into the client area.

Btw, there is already a new graphic API, kind of a predecesor of Avalon, it's called GDI+. Notice that it is class based and supports ARGB format (like DirectX), but it can be used without having to do a bunch of DirectX setup calls. I am currently using GDI+ and it is much easier to use than the Win32 GDI functions.

Re:Joe Beda talks the talk.... (4, Informative)

Mitchell Mebane (594797) | more than 10 years ago | (#10209113)

DirectX isn't just graphics. It is also networking, realtime input, sound, etc. Have you ever tried creating a GUI with DirectX? It is hard because you don't get the standard controls. What Avalon does is bridge that gap and bring 3D to the GUI controls (eg, outside the client area). Direct3D will only render into the client area.

Qt4 will also fill this gap - any QT widget can be drawn on top of an OpenGL canvas, and it will be OpenGL accelerated.

Re:Joe Beda talks the talk.... (-1, Troll)

Miguel de Icaza (660439) | more than 10 years ago | (#10209267)

there will be no further talk of qt/kde superiority in this thread. thankyou

Re:Joe Beda talks the talk.... (2, Informative)

Mitchell Mebane (594797) | more than 10 years ago | (#10209392)

Gee whiz... sorry if I came across that way, but in all honesty I was just pointing out that Avalon wasn't/won't be the only thing to do this.

Re:Joe Beda talks the talk.... (5, Insightful)

stratjakt (596332) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208776)

That's not so weird. Everyone oohs and aahs when there's a slashdot article about OSS 3D desktops, myself included.

I think desktop apps flipping around in 3D and all the new ways you could work with apps would be cool.

But DirectX isn't right for the task, it's too low level. Too much DX code only works on ATi or nVidia, too many vendor specific extensions and shitty drivers. It's great for tweaking the crap out of Doom 3 so it goes as fast as it can, but it would suck if some pixel shader operation that only works on Geforces blowed up my coding session .

Avalon is higher level, not trying to implement the latest hardware tweaks and gizmos, just base functionality you can count on across the board.

There's no redundancy, the way I see it. Two different tools for two different tasks.

Re:Joe Beda talks the talk.... (1)

ricotest (807136) | more than 10 years ago | (#10209095)

Not only that, but Avalon's 3D methods are probably just wrappers for DirectX. Which means less code redundancy, too.

Re:Joe Beda talks the talk.... (2, Interesting)

wasabii (693236) | more than 10 years ago | (#10209282)

"But DirectX isn't right for the task, it's too low level. Too much DX code only works on ATi or nVidia, too many vendor specific extensions and shitty drivers. It's great for tweaking the crap out of Doom 3 so it goes as fast as it can, but it would suck if some pixel shader operation that only works on Geforces blowed up my coding session."

Perhaps you refer to OpenGL. DirectX is an opaque MS API. There are not extensions. In fact, DirectX has a standard shader language, which are converted to the native shader language of the respective GPU by the DirectX drivers provided with the GPU.

Doom 3 also does not use Direct X. It uses OpenGL. All id games use OpenGL. That's what makes them special. ;0

Re:Joe Beda talks the talk.... (3, Informative)

sebby1234 (798583) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208860)

Under the hood, Avalon runs on top of DirectX. And all it's 2D rendering is actually done in 3D. So adding 3D functionality to is is no biggie. The idea is that Avalon is meant for GUI and DirectX for more low level graphics functionality.

The big benifit for at least game developers is that combining GUI with 3D graphics should be less of a pain in the butt.

The openoffice.org thingy (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10208905)

OpenOffice was renamed OpenOffice.org to avoid a trademarked name conflict iirc.

Re:Joe Beda talks the talk.... (1)

hypermike (680396) | more than 10 years ago | (#10209018)

Because OpenOffice had to change its name to Openoffice.org due to some name legality issue. So OO becomes OOorg.

resources (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10208669)

Vastly under-resourced?! This coming from a Microsoft employee too.

As far as I understand... (-1, Flamebait)

yanestra (526590) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208692)

As far as I understand, Mr. Icaza is now working for Microsoft, and he spends his energy on porting Microsoft ideas and projects to the Linux platform(s)... So why he criticizes Microsoft plans in the public?

Re:As far as I understand... (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10208742)

Because you don't know what you're talking about.

1) Microsoft isn't porting anything to Linux.
2) Miguel doesn't work for Microsoft, and never has.
3) Miguel works for Ximian, a company he founded, and which is now owned by Novell.

Re:As far as I understand... (0, Troll)

yanestra (526590) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208800)

1) Microsoft isn't porting anything to Linux.
But they have Mr. Icaza.
2) Miguel doesn't work for Microsoft, and never has.
Why then he improves their ideas?
3) Miguel works for Ximian, a company he founded, and which is now owned by Novell.
I understand. And Novell has never announced any co-operation with Microsoft. Right or wrong?

Re:As far as I understand... (3, Informative)

ryanmfw (774163) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208849)

They DON'T HAVE Mr. Icaza. They just don't. No matter how necessary that is for the rest of your post, it simply is not true.

He doesn't improve their ideas anyway, he debates with M$ employees on their ideas. Also, improving the ideas of the competition is a significant part of said competition. Competitors routinely improve on another company's products to steal their customers.

Nor has Novell *recently* announced any co-operation with Microsoft, as the two right now are essentially competing in the OS wars.

Re:As far as I understand... (2, Funny)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208920)

Because have good ideas sometimes.

Re:As far as I understand... (-1, Troll)

Miguel de Icaza (660439) | more than 10 years ago | (#10209001)

miguel once applied for a job at microsoft but didn't get it on account of immigration status or something like that - google for it.

from his past words and actions miguel has a viagra charged hardon for all things redmond

Re:As far as I understand... (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10208902)

"As far as I understand,"
You apparently do not understand.

"Mr. Icaza is now working for Microsoft"
Try Novell in the Ximian devision. That parent company also owns the SuSE Linux distro and tools now btw.

"and he spends his energy on porting Microsoft ideas and projects to the Linux platform"

Ya just like the blackdown project, or OpenOffice.org is doing for Sun's ideas and projects. You wrote the above as if it was a bad thing. Honestly do you want to be locked out of the potential of write one run everywhere apps? Do you feel you speak for all Linux and OSX users?

"So why he criticizes Microsoft plans in the public?"

He calls them like he sees em and even MS workers are at least paying attention to a good critic. If they did more of that, they would have less brain farts along the way. The same goes for others who can't take the heat of an honest review of their work so they just blast back.

Re:As far as I understand... (1)

winse (39597) | more than 10 years ago | (#10209313)

"Mr. Icaza is now working for Microsoft"
Try Novell in the Ximian devision. That parent company also owns the SuSE Linux distro and tools now btw.


umm i think the parent said that Miguel DOESN'T work for MS.
At any rate I see the things that Miguel is trying to do as good things for the community. Commoditizing certain types of applications is the foundation of the gpl culture. Almost all successful gpl apps have been an Nth implementation of a defacto or real standard. beatiful things like mono, wine, or other API implementations are just further attempts to sing the same song. It is not a song we'll have to sing forever though. Already there have been a couple of really new and fresh ideas released as oss. Myabe someone will fill in my thinking with examples for me.

Changing employer (0, Flamebait)

Lalakis (308990) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208954)

> Mr. Icaza is now working for Microsoft, and he
> spends his energy on porting Microsoft ideas and
> projects to the Linux platform(s)... So why he
> criticizes Microsoft plans in the public?

It's obvious, he wants to be in the payroll of Microsoft and stop working for them for free. All these years of hard work should be rewarded!

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10208694)

We do not want to waste our time with dead-end APIs as we are vastly under-resourced, so we must choose carefully..

Well well well. Isn't it easy to complain about an API when we aren't the ones responsible for creating it? Considering he is the one copying the .NET API, he shouldn't bite the hand that feeds him!

Re:Don't look a gift horse in the mouth (2, Insightful)

melgeroth (726004) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208805)

Actually, I think that's the *point*. He isn't just blindly grabbing and/all APIs Microsoft decides to procure. He is questioning this for a reason.

That said, I hate .NET/Mono *and* Java, so my opinion is moot here.

Re:Don't look a gift horse in the mouth (1, Insightful)

stratjakt (596332) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208844)

Well explain the point of the "if your APIs are gonna be dum then I'm just not going to copy them so nyah nyah" stuff?

that's like, wacky

Re:Don't look a gift horse in the mouth (1)

melgeroth (726004) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208893)

I don't see a point. I don't like .NET. If I did, I would see a point - that point would be that he's porting a language/platform I like to linux. But he's not. I should think that to be obvious?

Re:Don't look a gift horse in the mouth (0, Troll)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208956)

And what is wrong with .net/mono?

Re:Don't look a gift horse in the mouth (0, Offtopic)

melgeroth (726004) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208972)

That's off topic.

Re:Don't look a gift horse in the mouth (0, Flamebait)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 10 years ago | (#10209076)

IOW, you have no idea and are just posting shit.

Noted.

Re:Don't look a gift horse in the mouth (0, Troll)

melgeroth (726004) | more than 10 years ago | (#10209132)

I dont like langs/platform that tell me what I can and cannot do.

I don't like verbosity.

I don't like pseudo-open languages with small legal catches which could open up lawsuits against other implementations down the road.

I don't like stupid zealot followers who think anyone who opposes their Best Language Ever is an idiot.

I don't think it's needed - we have java for huge enterprise application frameworks, python/ruby for fast scalable apps, C/C++ for system programming, CLISP/Haskell/etc. for everything in general. What does .NET do for me, besides tie me to a vendor and reinvent the wheel? Why should I waste my cycles? (if I wanted to hear a JIT-is-faster-than-asm argument, I would have visited a .NET site!) If I need an interpreted language, I'd go use Ruby, or god forbid Java!

Are we done having our trollfest yet?

Idiot. Try posting on topic, or wait for the next ".NET == Ubar! C# 4 T3h Win!" post.

Re:Don't look a gift horse in the mouth (1)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 10 years ago | (#10209226)

Java has a JIT and can also be compiled (if you code carefully enough) and it has as many or more patents on it as .net does.

Re:Don't look a gift horse in the mouth (0, Troll)

melgeroth (726004) | more than 10 years ago | (#10209264)

Firstly, good luck compiling Java and beating GCC at anything at all.

Reading comprehension, read my original post.

Or I'll paste it here for you:

"That said, I hate .NET/Mono *and* Java, so my opinion is moot here."

Java ~ .NET for now, but Java was already around before .NET. I don't see a need for .NET with Java already here. Disagree? fine. lets disagree.

Either way I can code circles around most of those programmers in perl, or pretty much any other web-capable language (not talking about C++ here).

Right tool for the right job. Problem is, I don't see a job for .NET.

That's my opinion. You can have yours.

Re:Don't look a gift horse in the mouth (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10209353)

OK, then try to write a module in C++ and use it in Ruby. Oh yeah..wait.

Oh and try to write a DLL in C++ or a script in Perl with solid system access...oh holy crap.

That's right. You can't.

Write an application with solid system access (by system I mean access to the core of the system) in Java. Can't be done.

You really should learn more about .NET before you start spouting about how much it sucks.

Re:Don't look a gift horse in the mouth (1)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 10 years ago | (#10209374)

I suggest you look at CPAN before you say that what you call "Solid System Access" in perl isn't possible.

You call also extend ruby using C (not sure about C++ as I am unable to reach the ruby site right now)

Re:Don't look a gift horse in the mouth (0)

melgeroth (726004) | more than 10 years ago | (#10209400)

Systems programming with C++.

Web Programming with Ruby/Perl.

Is it that hard, really? Do you imply that Mono knows more about the "core of the system" of my FreeBSD box than GCC? I hope not, because I never endorsed Java.

Also, why don't you research scripting language bindings to low level programming languages before posting about them? And hey guess what, Ruby isn't well known or supported as of now, but you know little things like C++ bindings can be.. oh holy crap... coded? is that the word? I think so.

Re:Don't look a gift horse in the mouth (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10209401)

Are you sure?

http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/native1. 1/

Not sure about Ruby but you can bet that its a possibility because its open source.

However I'm not saying .Net is bad - it does make these things simpler. However the guy can have is opinion about .Net - its more valid given that he gives his name you Anonymous shit. :->

I was being ironical Larry...

Re:Don't look a gift horse in the mouth (0, Troll)

Miguel de Icaza (660439) | more than 10 years ago | (#10209343)

Are we done having our trollfest yet?

poor poor melgeroth (726004), the kde trolls don't even get up for another 3 hours.

Re:Don't look a gift horse in the mouth (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10209354)

I think its love ;-)

Re:Don't look a gift horse in the mouth (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10208856)

.NET rules. Java is pretty good too.

Re:Don't look a gift horse in the mouth (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10208869)

java pwns j00

Windows = Dead End (0)

Datagod (613152) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208707)

Why even waste your time at all on a dead end OS such as Windows? Think of the wasted BILLIONS pumped into one of a thousand projects they have on the burners (front and back). Think of the OS that could have been, if they were not bent on ruling every single aspect of the tech world.

MFC (1, Insightful)

TheRealMindChild (743925) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208709)

The obviously didnt learn with MFC.

Ad Nauseum (1, Insightful)

Metallic Matty (579124) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208724)

New news, same story:

- Icaza insults Microsoft policies.
- Nerds rally behind Icaza, he's just so smart to stand up to Microsoft and point out things we already knew.
- Other, more cynical nerds point out flaws in what Icaza said, possibly contradictions to previous comments or connections with MS.
- Mods find this comment flamebait, mod it down.
- No one cares.

?????

- Profit!

Mod this insightful, you insensitive clod.

Re:Ad Nauseum (1)

cybrthng (22291) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208786)

And what does your typical rant that is seen on every other slashdot article have to do with the topic of the story?

I think this idea for an API is amazingly innovative. Far less weight than the expensive (in cpu and bandwidth) desktop interfaces/api's we have now for any platform.

Possibly microsoft's answer to competing and blowing away the mozilla XUL or whatever it is called these days

Re:Ad Nauseum (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10208808)

you were born without a sense of humor, weren't you?

Re:Ad Nauseum (1)

cybrthng (22291) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208816)

my sense of humor thought that was funny the first 25,000 times over 3 years ago

look at those URLs... (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10208728)

The Open Source way (Miguel's):

http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/archive/2004/ Se p-09.html

Date is included, name of the author, the word "archive", the "html" extensions.. easy to understand at a glance, I have a good ideae what that URL points to. It's not "perfect" (it uses American month names rather than a more generic 2004/09-09.html) but pretty good as far as URLs go.

Now check out the Microsoft dude's URL:

http://www.simplegeek.com/PermaLink.aspx/eb453f8 5- 10e3-48ee-a6f5-cc4b886ce668

What? I have no idea what that points to. Maybe an insightful bit of commentary, or maybe a gaping anus. Who knows. Any subtelty hidden behind a confusing GUID. Extension is "aspx" which is an add for ASP.NET rather than a meaningful extension.

Ladies and gentlemen, I rest my case.

Re:look at those URLs... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10208757)

Your case sucks.
As if you couldn't do it the "Open Source way" by having, say:

http://www.opensourcegeek.com/PermaLink.php?ID=e b4 53f85- 10e3-48ee-a6f5-cc4b886ce668

For instance.

Re:look at those URLs... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10208799)

You are painfully retarded. Please punch yourself in the balls posthaste.

Re:look at those URLs... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10208977)

What's sad is that someone modded this up.

Re:look at those URLs... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10209209)

Summary:
Open Source Way: Leave crap laying around in your home directory.
Microsoft Way: Use a database

Re:look at those URLs... (2, Informative)

SilentChris (452960) | more than 10 years ago | (#10209252)

I don't think aspx has anything whatsoever to do with the Avalon team. Is this just an attempt at a really bad troll?

Re:look at those URLs... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10209377)

The gaping anus is going to be at http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/archive/2004/Se p-010.html

I think tubgirl was last week.

Re:look at those URLs... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10209380)

How does the date in the url give you any indication that it is insightful commentary as opposed to a gaping anus?

Both URLs are equally opaque as to their content.

5% most interesing nugget of info (1)

bstadil (7110) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208798)

What on earth is the 5% other Operating Systems in this link [ximian.com] ?

Amiga? or the "dying" BSD?

Re:5% most interesing nugget of info (2, Funny)

beavis88 (25983) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208832)

Windows 3.1

Although I'm joking, it wouldn't really surprise me...

Re:5% most interesing nugget of info (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10208978)

Plus Solaris, and all the other unix versions (including BSD, yes). Also Mac may refer only to OS X, with Mac OS 9 etc put in "other". And stuff like PDAs running various weird and wonderful OSes.

Re:5% most interesing nugget of info (2, Insightful)

PeterPumpkin (777678) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208953)

Mostly cellphones and pocket PC's. And then the BSD's, Amigas, HP-UXes, etc.

Re:5% most interesing nugget of info (1)

Frizzle Fry (149026) | more than 10 years ago | (#10209143)

I'd imagine must of it is unix flavors other than linux.

Architecture Philosophy (5, Interesting)

FlutterVertigo(gmail (800106) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208818)

I've said this before, here and elsewhere: WGHIII[1] has said several times in the past (and was at conferences in the mid '90s when & where he said them): "...people do not want bug fixes - they want new features...". This is frequently borne out by the underlying architecture Microsoft presents in their products. A semi-stable underpinning, capable of supporting certain elements is put into place such that products & features can be built upon that architecture. "Patching Architectural Holes" (Security, Stability, etc.) can be fixed via patches later[2]. Unfortunately, this means users suffer frustration for a semi "feature rich", unstable product, and developers discover situations where they write "three sides around the barn" when the pieces don't fit together as the philosophy would lead one to believe.

There are other companies which spend a lot of time on the architecture - almost to a fault - knowing once it is solid, they can add the users' heavily desired features without worry about the stability beneath it.

All developers know about both scenarios as they either crave and know the the outcome if they are permitted to put the architectural stability in place or they are forced to charge ahead with building on top of wet toilet paper.


[1]William Henry Gates 3rd
[2]Providing a vendor is even willing to do so. And the question begs to be answered: How unstable can an architecture be such that patches can be safely made to it (without risking screwing the pooch) to make an improvement? Remember the "three sides around the barn" development? What happens to developed code if the OS suddenly "works" correctly?


Just remember....
______________________________________
My Trunk Monkey can beat up your Trunk Monkey.
http://www.suburbanautogroup.com/ford/trunkmonkey. html

Two observations (5, Interesting)

jvmatthe (116058) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208847)

  • Microsoft talking design and technologies out in the open with other developers who aren't Microsoft employees? Even talking with Free software advocates? Man, that's good to hear, honestly. If this were system-wide, I bet it'd be good for both sides.
  • Reading Miguel mention that many APIs (Avalon, Tk, Swing, GNOME, Xview, Motif) at least gives one the impression that he might actually know what he's talking about. Let me give him the benefit of the doubt. It makes me wonder how many Microsoft employees have that much understanding of non-Microsoft APIs. Probably plenty, but the few I have encountered seem so immersed in Microsoft culture that they appear to have little understanding of what's going on outside of the Microsoft sphere.
Now, I should say that I'm no real programmer, but I've done some. The "real" programming I've done is computational code that runs in the console, with a couple of GUI front ends. So, I'm not going to claim any kind of serious perspective on this.

Re:Two observations (4, Interesting)

SilentChris (452960) | more than 10 years ago | (#10209270)

"Microsoft talking design and technologies out in the open with other developers who aren't Microsoft employees?"

Microsoft doesn't. Microsoft's developers do. Check out the MS Research site and the stuff they have released (like that project on Sourceforge).

I've always said there's a big difference between the "large scary corporation" and the employees. The employees are humans like everyone else. It's only the company as a whole that's done anything truly wrong.

Re:Two observations (1)

grcumb (781340) | more than 10 years ago | (#10209388)

"Reading Miguel mention that many APIs (Avalon, Tk, Swing, GNOME, Xview, Motif) at least gives one the impression that he might actually know what he's talking about. Let me give him the benefit of the doubt."

What a spendid idea!

But why stop there? While we're at it, why don't we look at his development track record, at the innumerable public talks he's given, and, lest we forget, at the applications and development environment he's designed and developed in the past?

"I should say that I'm no real programmer..."

I'll have to agree with your assessment, because if you did know what you're talking about, you'd be a troll.

I hereby announce... (-1, Offtopic)

sploo22 (748838) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208962)

In the finest tradition of Slashdot...

PWN3D!

Ease of use and elegence with GUI toolkits (5, Interesting)

ShatteredDream (636520) | more than 10 years ago | (#10208982)

A number of my peers like to bitch about how "Swing is hard to learn" and I get called an elitist for laughing at them. Of course, unlike most of them I have tried to learn other toolkits and have come to the conclusion that Swing's design really is the de facto gold standard for how a GUI toolkit should be arranged for practical development. It is fast, extremely logically structured and the documentation is really straight to the point for when you need to look stuff up.

I could never get used to Windows Forms. It still amazes me that the layout manager concept isn't considered a standard part of the UI toolkit design process now. Developers shouldn't have to automatically manage most GUI layouts.

Re:Ease of use and elegence with GUI toolkits (5, Insightful)

sporty (27564) | more than 10 years ago | (#10209145)

Amen! The idea that a widget is an object, that can listen for events, such as being clicked, or scrolled or something, is what OOP is all about. Something can have attributes and do something.


More-so, the "most difficult" layout manager is actually the simpler. GridBag. Even if I assign the constraints and add widgets in haphazard order, so long as i set the x and y right, they go in the right place. It is almost like html in how it works, except html requires ordering of the statements.


So please, tell me.. why is swing difficult? It's overwhelming because people don't do graphical stuff from the getgo, just like tk and what not. The difference is, swing just makes sense. Now it's not to say others DON'T make sense. perl/tk makes a lot of sense too, but the oop in perl is weak, so it's easier to make tpyos and screw things up once in a blue moon... especially sans strict.

Re:Ease of use and elegence with GUI toolkits (1)

Medieval_Gnome (250212) | more than 10 years ago | (#10209211)

Okay, I easily could be missing something, but isn't that almost the exact method that GTK2 uses (at least in more OO languages like Python)? I must admit to never programming in swing since java and I don't get along well, but it sounds like swing and GTK share the good points. If any can confirm/deny, I would honestly appreciate it.

Re:Ease of use and elegence with GUI toolkits (0, Troll)

jenkin sear (28765) | more than 10 years ago | (#10209275)

Swing isn't hard to learn - it just runs like crap, even on fast hardware.

debate? (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10208988)

Since when were 3 commentless blog posts considered a debate?

Ignoring standards (4, Insightful)

kidlinux (2550) | more than 10 years ago | (#10209071)

Chris Anderson replied with the following in regard to ignoring standards.

Interestingly enough, we never "ignored" standards. We spent a huge amount of time understanding and evaluating the existing standards. SVG and CSS both were passed on because they weren't adaquate to meet our needs. WinFX is a platform for the next decade or longer - we can't start with a base that doesn't meet our needs.

What a load of shit. That mentality is where the "embrace and extend" came from. It might not meet Microsoft's needs, but CSS and SVG are the bloody standards that people are using! What do they know about the coming decade that we don't?

What Chris said pretty much flies in the face of the entire paragraph that Miguel wrote! Look:

I understand why someone would invent their own version of SVG or their own version of CSS: those standards can be difficult to implement, and growing your own version is a lot simpler than having to adapt an existing model to a new model.

I would have probably done the same if I had been in their position: its easy. But I would think that Microsoft has a higher responsibility towards the developer base that must create tools that interop with third party components: creating a new standard for graphics just because its `easy' is not really a good answer.

Implementing SVG might have problems and limitations, but the advantages outweight these problems: there are plenty of tools today to produce and consume it and it fits better with the rest of the industry. A benefit that Avalon users will not have and will just partition the industry again for a fairly poor reason.


Standards are there for a reason. If Microsoft doesn't like them they can see figure 1 [falstad.com] . I have a feeling that Microsoft may not dislike the standards themselves, they just don't like the fact that they're not their standards.

Who is Miguel de Icaza ? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10209085)

And why do we care?

Re:Who is Miguel de Icaza ? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10209116)

Here's a picture of him [linux-magazin.de] .. he looks like a fagot.

Re:Who is Miguel de Icaza ? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10209136)

He's some mole hired by microsoft to create ports of microsoft technologies to linux but with "legitimacy" of an open source hacker that microsoft could never get if they did it themselves.

Also by having Miguel do the porting microsoft can deny that they ever ported anything to linux therefore not giving linux any added legitimacy but giving their own products legitimacy.

same old same old (0, Troll)

Miguel de Icaza (660439) | more than 10 years ago | (#10209168)

1. embrace & extend svg & xul by anouncing avalon/xaml vaporware
2. sit on hands as svg & xul die
3. profit

No, it doesn't... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10209227)

"Hard core" means "death march."

No, it doesn't! It means things done right. It means things done so that a definitive API with expandability for the furure may be developed that doesn't have to be scrapped and started over because everyone working on the project was brain-dead and so desperate for a quick solution to meet looming deadlines that a poor implementation was chosen over no implementation at all.

Microsoft... where do you want to go today? To hell!

Following Standards? Right! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 10 years ago | (#10209244)

"... Interestingly enough, we never "ignored" standards. We spent a huge amount of time understanding and evaluating the existing standards...."

I guess he is talking about Microsoft's efforts in programming. It is certainly not true elsewhere with MS. Take for instance the new Microsoft online music store. If I use a W3C complient HTTP client that isn't IE (or risk security issuse adding ActiveX to your HTTP client), you can't use or view their site correctly. Hum, no customer HTTP client choice there. And certainly not W3C complient. So tell me about following standards again.

About inheritance and the API (4, Interesting)

SilentChris (452960) | more than 10 years ago | (#10209319)

Miguel makes a semi-interesting point, but Mr. Microsoft makes a better one: why on earth would the average programmer be rooting upwards through the class tree 10 or 11 levels?

The whole point of abstraction is that Joe Programmer knows "button" derives from the next highest object. That's it. It's nice to know the other levels when you're learning the language's abstraction model for the first time/creating it, but once you get into down and dirty practical programming, you only really need to look up and down a few levels. If you're going all the way back up to Object and reconfiguring it, you're reinventing the wheel. That was the language designer's job.

Miquel de Icaza is a terrorist sympathizer... (-1, Troll)

callipygian-showsyst (631222) | more than 10 years ago | (#10209371)

...who thinks that murdering innocent women and children is prefectly OK.
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