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Is Sun Turning against Linux and Red Hat?

CowboyNeal posted more than 9 years ago | from the embrace-and-excommunicate dept.

Sun Microsystems 542

An Elephant writes "Groklaw is reporting, based on a ZDNet UK story, that Sun's strategy for survival in the near future is based on trying to equate Linux with Red Hat, and then attack Red Hat as too small to support enterprises. This seems strange -- Sun is selling a Linux distro itself (the Java Desktop System). As I write this, there's no mention of this on Sun's website -- neither confirmation nor denial. What's going on?"

cancel ×

542 comments

No surprise here... (3, Insightful)

coupland (160334) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336355)

This is definitely true, I'm not sure why this would surprise anyone. The first I saw of it was on News.com.com.com [com.com] on the 20th, two days before the ZDNet UK article. It was based on a telephone conversation with Jonathan Schwartz. Sun wants to find a way to avoid commoditization of software, and to make their HW/SW bundle inseparable. That HW/SW bundle doesn't include Linux, at least any moreso than they have to pay lip service to Linux support.

I'm sorry, did you actually think Sun was an ally? I guess it was their $2 billion deal with Microsoft to try to face IBM head-on (the only company whose Linux support has actually lived up to their promises) that convinced you Sun was completely benign.

Re:No surprise here... (4, Insightful)

gad_zuki! (70830) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336455)

>I'm sorry, did you actually think Sun was an ally?

And why should they be? Linux installations are killing commercial unix, moreso than MS's server offerings. These are the mechanics of market competition. On top of it, even if Sun is serious about the Java Desktop they can still push it and attack other linux distros at the same time. All they have to claim is that their solution is better than Red Hats (or whoever).

The world of business makes for odd enemies and bedfellows.

Re:No surprise here... (2, Insightful)

coupland (160334) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336513)

Furthermore, here's a thought. Dozens of companies have pledged support for Linux, dozens of companies ship it, but how many companies (at least genuinely large, powerful ones) actually contribute to it? Sun? HP? Dell? Intel? AMD?

Only IBM. They don't do it out of kindness, they do it to make money. But truth be told, they are the only company not simply paying lip service.

SGI? (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10336543)

I don't know if SGI qualifies as large and powerful anymore. But I do think they've made some significant contributions and have been friendly players. XFS is pretty nice.

Re:No surprise here... (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10336566)

HP and Intel are behind OSDL, which employs Torvolds and a bunch of other kernel hackers. Not to mention that RedHat was venture funded by Intel cash. That doesn't even get into the device support those companies are responsible for.

IBM runs "Linux" advertisments on TV though.

Re:No surprise here... (5, Informative)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336610)

Sun?

NFS, OpenOffice, GNOME?

Re:No surprise here... (3, Informative)

los furtive (232491) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336614)

You forgot Novell. I'm sure there are others as well.

I don't buy it, I grow it.

Re:No surprise here... (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10336621)

how many companies ... actually contribute to it? Sun? HP? Dell? Intel? AMD?

Yes, Intel. Read the 2.6.9-2 changelog. Tony Luck contributes, as does Ken Chen. You didn't mention SGI, but I'll mention them. sgi.com email addresses submit patches. HP? Sure, Bjorn Helgaas submits patches. Dell? Oh yeah, Dell hosts the MegaRaid development mailing list, and a few people from dell.com also submit patches. AMD? Take a look at the 2.4.27 chagelog. An AMD employee submitted a patch for an AMD network driver.

IBM is not the only corporation to submit patches to the Linux kernel.

Not Entirely True (3, Informative)

jd (1658) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336689)

The HP/Compaq/DEC gestalt provides the Compaq One-Stop Linux patches for clustering. They also wrote a very nice kernel scheduler plug-in system, whereby you could install your own scheduler whilst the machine was running.

>
SGI have contributed to numerous projects, and are only narrowly behind IBM in terms of how much they've put in. They'd be contributing more, but their Apache accelerator unit was shut down because the Apache group wouldn't take their patches. Fools that they are. (Apache, that is. Those were some damn good patches.)


SGI also ships the Altix platdorm and contributes to Linux' NUMA development, SMP development and numerous other projects. (You don't build 1024-way systems unless you're going to make it run a 1024-way OS.)

Re:No surprise here... (1)

scmason (574559) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336532)

No. No I did not. If Sun were a real ally, Java would be open source. Sun IS willing to make money off the Linux market brand, but not willing to contribute a language that it freely distributes? This is because Sun understands that there is no way that it could compete against the open source model for value added packages if both sides have the source code. So he keeps us hanging, close to being a friend but all the while we feel a little strung along.

Sun is much like the playground kids:

Hey, Open_Source, you are my best friend! We are on the same team.

Psst, Bill, listen, I hate those guys. I am just pretending to be nice to them so I can help your team win... I can be on your team? Right Bill?

What are they thinking? ..

Ye Olden Days (1, Redundant)

catwh0re (540371) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336622)

MS trying to turn the industry into the olden days, where linux wasn't around.

I like how the story articulates that sun is trying to avoid being a powerless drone... When it's clear they have become a powerless drone via MS, and hence are just the next step in MS's plan.

Step 1. MS get SCO to do bidding
Step 2. MS get Sun to do bidding

I notice that SGI comes between SCO and SUN in the phone book.. so yay for SGI.

Also I notice MS bought SAP. Maybe they just like S?? companies?

Re:No surprise here... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10336623)

Companies are always driven by profit. They are not nice, they don't care.

BTW there is way too many .com's in that news link.

Good god! Sun makes a heel turn! (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10336356)

Sun has just nailed Red Hat and Linux with a steel chair! Oh no! It's SCO... and SCO is raising Sun's hand! What does this mean?! This can only be settled at Linuxmania!

Re:Good god! Sun makes a heel turn! (0, Offtopic)

AuMatar (183847) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336487)

BY GAWD this heinous! Its a slobberknocker! That Sun is a hoss!

Re:Good god! Sun makes a heel turn! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10336550)

Linuxmania Six Man Tag Match featuring Sun, SCO, and Microsoft vs. Red Hat, Novell, and IBM.

Tux interview: "Tell me, SUN, do you like pie?" "Well, I'd like a bigger slice..." "it doesn't MATTER what you like! Tux says this -- Tux says he's gonna take all of you java-sippin, clippy kissin, lawsuit makin jabronis and beat the living hell out of you. Then he's gonna take some IBM big iron, polish it real good, turn that sonabitch sideways and stick it straight up yer candy asses! When Tux is done with you whiney bitches, you're gonna make that goatse guy look normal. If you smellllllllo what Tux IS cookin!"

why whorry? (-1, Offtopic)

BinLadenMyHero (688544) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336362)

just let it die a slow and painfull death.

turning linux? (-1, Troll)

Quill_28 (553921) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336365)

Redhat is not linux!

I personally can't stand redhat they are the MS of the linux world.

Seems what sun is doing is saying linux is fine but you need a company that handle your IT needs.
'We(SUN) have been doing this for years, redhat is a new player. Go with Us!'

Yeah... (1)

Seabass55 (472183) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336392)

Cause they are trying to make some money?

Re:turning linux? (1)

hypermike (680396) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336402)

I have tried nearly every distro out there and finally settled upon fedora with apt installed. It just feels cleaner... Gnome rocks too.

Also it... (2, Interesting)

hypermike (680396) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336437)

Find another distro that beats fedoras boot time without a hack that loads X straight away.. you wont. Its a full minute faster than debian installs.

Re:turning linux? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10336450)

I have also tried nearly every distro out there and finally settled upon debian which created apt. It just feels cleaner.... Gnomes does rock.

Re:turning linux? (5, Interesting)

JanneM (7445) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336419)

...they are the MS of the linux world.

Could you elaborate on that?

They support community standards, have a better-safe-than-sorry policy on patent-encumbered stuff, fully support a Free, rapid-release cycle distro with no GPL incompatible components at all (unlike some other large distros have done). They have not bought out or killed off other distributions or done anything else that would be unconcionable. So how, exactly, do they become "the MS of the linux world"?

Re:turning linux? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10336593)

Wait up?! I thought that RedHat was supposedly the MS of the linux world.

Re:turning linux? (2, Insightful)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336626)

They make a profit and they support GNOME, that is enought for some of the kids on /. to hate RHAT.

But, if Sun attacks redhat like this perhaps redhat will join SUSE in supporting MONO.

Re:turning linux? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10336425)

Redhat is not linux!

Newsflash: Slashdot geeks aren't the types of people Sun is trying to convince. It's the PHBs that matter, and most of them don't know this.

I personally can't stand redhat they are the MS of the linux world.

In what sense? Last time I checked they were giving away all of their code under the GPL, funding kernel development, GNOME development, GCC development... too many to name.

Re:turning linux? (4, Interesting)

aussie_a (778472) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336456)

I personally can't stand redhat they are the MS of the linux world.

Oh I wasn't aware they had a Linux monopoly and were guilty of abusing that monopoly. Oh wait, they're not. This is just a typical Slashdot troll who doesn't like Red Hat, and because he doesn't like Red Hat and he doesn't like Microsoft they must be very similar within their own fields.

Don't blame him for posting this garbage. It's rewarded around here. After all, he has a +3 Insightful.

Re:turning linux? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10336618)

If Red Hat were in fact the Microsoft of linux the following would be true:

1. You could only get RedHat Linux because any other kind of linux would be a EULA violation.

2. RedHat would sign agreements with third-party vendors to offer them incentives to only create
software on RH Linux.

3. RedHat would create proprietary API's in the kernel so the RedHat Office 2004 works better than the competition.

That said, there are some people who are pissed at the decisions RH makes, like relegating KDE to GNOME's back seat. My Solution? Release QT as LGPL.

Re:turning linux? (4, Insightful)

lphuberdeau (774176) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336468)

RedHat might be Linux's Microsoft, but you really can't deny they really pushed Linux in the early days. Without RedHat, I seriously doubt our favorite OS would be the same today without them.

I don't like it much as a distribution neither (it's not bad but I've seen better), but I still show some respect for them.

As for Sun, well, I can hardly get a point of view on those guys. As a developper, I really like Java and like the fact that they let everyone use it freely (as in free beer). On the other hand, their marketting strategies on everything that is OS or hardware are quite unacceptable. They seem to be very opportunist, but forget everything about the long run and making friends.

I can't accept the fact that they are totally evil, but they sure have no feather wings.

Re:turning linux? (2, Funny)

nihilogos (87025) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336474)

Type 'cat /dev/core' at a shell. Then see what you have to say about Red Hat.

Re:turning linux? (0, Offtopic)

big tex (15917) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336605)

Wow.

That was about as fun as kicking myself in the nuts.

What's going on? (4, Insightful)

Black Parrot (19622) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336374)


> As I write this, there's no mention of this on Sun's website -- neither confirmation nor denial. What's going on?

Slashdot is reporting that Groklaw is reporting that the ZD FUD machine is reporting that...

OK, maybe it's true, but I wouldn't take it to the bank yet.

Re:What's going on? (-1, Offtopic)

Horizon_99 (58767) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336438)

Yeah, and, like did ya see what Sun was wearing today? Ugh Sun is such a whore.

Re:What's going on? (5, Insightful)

DustMagnet (453493) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336490)

It's really sad to see this level of FUD. Sun has always won by out-engineer everybody else. Sure they got a little big and started to milk the market, but they know that's over. At least they were smart enough to keep a good staff of engineers.

They drove me away with poor hardware support and I'm now using RedHat on x86, but they know how to get me back: quality engineering at a fair price.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge free software fan (or is that fanatic), but this FUD is the worse FUD I've seen since Darl shut up.

Re:What's going on? Z-D's going on (and on, and on (1)

davecb (6526) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336616)

Well, folks like Z-D who get paid by the attention they draw do tend to overstate and oversimplify a teentsy bit (;-))

For the large-system, huge-customer market, this might be a real Sun marketing push. The PHBs at that level are unlikely to recognize the word Linux, but have heard about Red Hat, as they've read about it in Forbes.

For these folks, Sun might well need to say "Sun is bettter than Red Hat". For a consultant or a publisher specializing in talking to PHBs, this sort of ovrsimplification actually sounds intelligent. That might not be my opinion, but then I'm Dilbert, not Wally.

--dave

Hmmm, (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10336375)

We make computers, and we make OS's, lets bump em all off...

Sounds like they are looking for the competition (5, Informative)

john_chr (700513) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336380)

The Linux "movement" is too nebulous to compete against so in order for Sun to be able to work out what to do they must feel a need to reduce the problem down to a traditional competitor and then go after that hoping to squash the problem that way.

I think they missed the point.

Re:Sounds like they are looking for the competitio (4, Insightful)

dnoyeb (547705) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336431)

The job of the CEO is to steer the company. I hope the worlds shareholders are watching and understand that just because someone gets to be a CEO does not mean they know what the hell they are doing.

Where is the innovation? No, not the scientific innovation, the managerial innovation.

Re: The problem with Linux (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10336499)

One of the main problems with Linux is the requirement to reboot every 49.7 days. Personnally, I thought that this limitation would have been fixed by now, but it seems to be a design issue and not a simple bug.

That is one reason why Solaris is more attractive to serious businesses than Linux is.

Re: The problem with Linux (0, Troll)

dmaxwell (43234) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336558)

Your troll-fu shows promise grasshopper. This is one of the better comedy trolls I've seen in a while.

Re: The problem with Linux (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10336582)

Thanks, I do my best to educate slashdotters about Linux. I am even thinking of creating an account!

Re:Sounds like they are looking for the competitio (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10336547)

The Linux "movement" is too nebulous to compete against

Not only is it too nebulous, it doesn't exist. I know, that's why you put it in quotes. There's a free software movement, but there's really no point for Sun to compete for freedom. They want money.

You missed the point. Sun is a company. They need to make money to pay employees and investors. They will compete with those that are making money. Is the "Linux movement" making money?

Re:Sounds like they are looking for the competitio (2, Insightful)

sydres (656690) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336624)

big deal do you think any linux zealot whether corporate admin/tech officer or home user could
care less about sun beating on Red Hat if they have adopted Red Hat over Sun Or Microsoft its
probably because they have weighed the options
and found that Linux, in this case RedHat is the best solution to their needs, and if Sun succeeded in this gambit then a distro change probably is not the hardest fix, but a change of OS/OS,Platform would probably be a bitch to implement. Sun might succeed in hurting or Killing RedHat but then they would need to switch over to attacking SUSE, then Mandrake, then oh dear I hope they have deep pockets, and forgiving investors

Baaahhhh (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10336381)

/.ers never really needed sun anyway. Its all indoors and its nice here. Wait. Which sun are we talking about here?

Yes... (0, Flamebait)

the_mad_poster (640772) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336384)

Because Sun would certainly come out and say "Hey everybody! Look! We're going to start a smear campaign against xyz tomorrow! And we beat up small children and steal their milk money too!"

Christ...

Its plan? Attack Red Hat, use control over the operating system and the platform to disrupt competitors' pricing and business models, out-engineer everybody in the x86 space and use an alliance with Microsoft to fight a common enemy: IBM.

Oh my god! They're going to act like a company! Quick, run and hide!

Seriously, this idiotic, childish nonsense is exactly the reason that nobody likes to talk about Linux in any serious, business capacity. You have a couple success stories to tout, but Microsoft is still firmly in control of THE sweet spot of computing: the desktop market. Why? Because of crap like this entire stupid writeup.

If this had been about how to respond to a threat from Sun, or a mere analysis of Sun's business strategy (like the article is), that would be fine. This? This is crap. This is some submitter trying to shoot pimply-faced geeks' blood pressure up high enough to pop their zits just from reading Slashdot.

Honest to god... if you Linux zealots would just step back, take a breath, and F.O.C.U.S. on a goal, you'd be MUCH better off...

Re:Yes... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10336426)

F.O.C.U.S. ?

Fuck
Only
Cute
Ukranian
Sluts

Francis
Obligingly
Cooked
Us
Spaghetti

What the fuck are you trying to say man?

Ally or Enemy? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10336385)

I'm not sure if I like Sun or not. They don't support Linux, and would rather fight it with FUD and Solaris. Yet again, I like them for OpenOffice.org (which is great) and Java.

Decisions, decisions......

Re:Ally or Enemy? (1)

dakryx (646923) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336591)

Hey now they support Linux, just their distribution

yeah. (1, Insightful)

elmegil (12001) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336387)

And we all know how objective Groklaw is about Sun. Remember that wonderful negative review of JDS 2, one of only a handful of complete pans?

Re:yeah. (5, Insightful)

FunWithHeadlines (644929) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336491)

Lots of Sun supporters hate it when Groklaw says anything negative about Sun, and that's understandable. They been a good company for so long it hurts to think of them turning against Linux. But the fact is that despite their Linux efforts, they are being hurt in the hardware arena by Linux, and so they are fighting against it. This is understandable, but the methods they are using are low. If this ZD article is accurate, and so far I've heard nothing from Sun denying it, it indicates some very sleazy behavior being planned by Sun.

Companys that begin to struggle and can see their future dying are apt to do all sorts of vile things. Partnering with Microsoft is not a good sign, for we all know how Microsoft view Linux. Now we may have another sign from Sun about how they view it. Thanks to Groklaw, despite all the naysayers, I've seen Sun's schizo "we love Linux / we are going to destroy Linux" behavior for what it is: No real friend to the FOSS community.

As for Groklaw not being objective, I'm so glad. I've had enough of objective news coverage that refuses to call people on their statements. Politician X tells his lie, then Politician Y tells his opposite lie, the story ends right there, and that's considered good journalism?! No thanks. Give me the Groklaw approach every day of the week. You do wrong, you get called out. You do right, you get praised. If you don't like it, start your own advocacy site where you can call it as you see it. But don't put down Groklaw just because it's on the side of FOSS.

Re:yeah. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10336533)

real friend to the FOSS community

Keep in mind that the first and central mission of the "FOSS community" is to destroy proprietary UNIX, which in this day an age effectively means Solaris.

Why should Sun be friendly with people who see themselves as blood-enemies of Sun?

Re:yeah. (4, Interesting)

dmaxwell (43234) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336590)

Keep in mind that the first and central mission of the "FOSS community" is to destroy proprietary UNIX, which in this day an age effectively means Solaris.

Bollocks. I use FOSS because it is usually the fastest, cheapest, and most effective way to get a job done. I also don't become a vendor's bitch in the process. I could care less about Sun unless their mission is to find a way to make doing my job more expensive. If the destruction of Sun and MS happens it will strictly be a side effect. Now faced with direct attacks you can be indifferent or fight back but "destroying" anything was never the mission.

Re:yeah. (2)

big tex (15917) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336663)

Well, maybe eventually proprietary systems.

First, the goal is / ought to be the widespread use of open standards. If everyone talks the same language - if we can all read and write the same office documents (wether MSOffice, Koffice, OpenOffice, or Appleworks, to name a few), view the web the same (standards compliant rendering) and so on, then we will be somewhere.

At that point, the virtues of each system - Linux, Windows, MacOS, UNIX - are separated from the end useage and FOSS can compete on a level playing ground.

Advocacy != news (2, Insightful)

HBI (604924) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336648)

The site isn't about facts anymore, apparently. It's mostly about anti-this or that propaganda.

Just look at the banner - it no longer says 'run by a paralegal' but 'run by a journalist with a paralegal background'. This implies objectivity that just doesn't exist. I couldn't send my management there to read stuff, they'd think I was an OSS nutjob. So how is it helping, then?

Professionalism and evenhanded analysis was the hallmark of the initial articles on Groklaw, and what made it very popular. It was a much better site when it seemed run by an amateur and concentrated on the facts instead of spewing pro-OSS FUD, for that's what it is doing in many cases.

I thought FUD was bad.

Re:Advocacy != news (4, Insightful)

FunWithHeadlines (644929) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336696)

Garbage. The site was always about calling out bad things, it's just now we have a much clearer picture of the bad things SCO has done whereas in the beginning you had to give them at least the benefit of the doubt.

And yes, the site is about facts still. Check out the court transcripts. Those are facts you can check yourself. How many other news sites give you the direct source material to check for yourself?

Re:yeah. (1)

davecb (6526) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336679)

I think Groklaw is a little too trusting of Z-D, but it's an honestly held opinion, and I support them holding it.

I happen to disagree with it, and see Sun as more interested in good engineering than FUD for PHB's. Look at the articles on their multithreaded cores. That's an elegant engineering approach to closing the brutal speed gap between main memory and the CPU. That's the stuff I'm interested in.

--dave

troolkore (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10336397)

SUN, yawn (-1, Flamebait)

ImaLamer (260199) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336411)

McNealy is known to keep a "decapitated penguin" on his desk [wired.com] ...

Is this a suprise?

Re:SUN, yawn (4, Informative)

mantera (685223) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336537)


McNealy is known to keep a "decapitated penguin" on his desk...

Don't be sensationally unfair; it's the head from the penguin costume that he WORE the year before to declare his company's embrace of Linux.

Re:SUN, yawn (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10336560)

Wow. I had to check your link and read that paragraph. After your quote, I read: He admits to tactical errors "too numerous to discuss," and then singles out just one: Sun was late jumping into the market for a cheaper set of offerings on the lower rungs of the server world.

Duh! They thought they could milk that cach cow for a lot longer. Dorks.

Remember folks NEWS? (1)

linuxislandsucks (461335) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336424)

Remember folks, NEWS?

Same type of tatics and SUN lost..this why SUN's CEo hatees FOSS and OpenGroup a tpoi9nt stating that FOSS stands fro Forever Opossing Sun microSytems..

They will not win this time either

What about Novell? (5, Insightful)

Frac (27516) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336430)

I'm surprised to hear that Novell is being discounted and ignored. Sure, you might laugh, but don't forget that they now own SuSe (which is still the most popular distro in Europe), and Ximian, which owns Evolution and has a stronger influence over the direction of GNOME and Mono.

Re:What about Novell? (1)

pigscanfly.ca (664381) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336470)

Novell definitly is a sleaping giant. WHile they have a lot of controll we have let to see them leverge this into anything particularily exciting.
If this ("linux is unproven you need a long term company to help you with it") is their, SUn's, strategy to stay alive novell could certainlly whip there asses.
Of course this is slashdot so....

Re:What about Novell? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10336628)

What makes you think Novell won't kill Suse the same way that they killed Netware? It's not like they have a history of successfully managing products.

Re:What about Novell? (5, Insightful)

pigscanfly.ca (664381) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336675)

Its not like novell "killed" netware.
Netware was designed to add good networking functionallity to operating system(s) with limmited support. Then all of a sudden microsoft came along and started including a lot of the features novell had been offering (admittedly a hell of a lot worse, but that M$ for you) in there standard OS.
Suddenly there was a lot less of a need for netware.
So its not really like novell "killed" netware, netware got killed (although novell probably could have worked a bit better at keeping it alive).

What's going on? (2, Insightful)

Daniel Ellard (799842) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336439)

It's a slow news day, and someone found a left-over rumor and decided to run with it?

BuhBye (1, Flamebait)

maelstrom (638) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336441)

I am now cheering on your demise Sun.

Re:BuhBye (4, Interesting)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336634)

The demise of Sun Microsystems would be a big loss to the IT field. Sun does make good stuff, that has a lot of features on the large scale systems, some of their high end stuff IBM doesn't come close in terms of scalability. Solaris as well is a Solid Proven OS with a lot of nice features. From 2001 or so Sun Stock has dropped and so has their business not because of lack of quality in hardware and software or even its "high" prices. It is because a few years earlier during the .COM boom they decided to screw over most of their resellers and take the deals away from them to gain more profit. What this did was piss of the resellers and caused them to drop reselling Sun because after all their work getting a clint they don't want the deal to slip away to their partner without even a finders fee. So all the resellers did dropped out and now all the consultants except for pushing Sun gear started pushing Linux solutions, because they wont get ripped of like with Sun. Most of these companies buying from the resellers didn't care about the gear or the OS as much but more in terms of the quality of service they offered. So when Sun bypassed their resellers to get more profit they also decided to stop a cheap method of marketing their products which was word of mouth from the resellers. The company I work for was once a Sun Reseller we would push the gear left and right. Now we push Linux solutions a lot more (Sometimes we still choose sun because it is the right tool for the right job) because we no longer have the Sun Reseller advantage because we dropped it because for every big deal we start Sun steals it from us. Sun is starting to realize the error in its way but and it is improving their status. And I hope Sun becomes strong again with a more Reseller program with more integeraty. Because it will be a waist to loose the right tool for the right job

Open Source Mo' Money (1)

Mulletproof (513805) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336452)

"As I write this, there's no mention of this on Sun's website -- neither confirmation nor denial. What's going on?"

Makin' money is what's going on... And the need to position themselves to do just that. Open source doesn't guarantee freedom from making a profit.

who cares? (1, Redundant)

f00zy (783212) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336454)

That's the beauty of the thing. It just doesn't matter. Embrace it or don't. No one cares. A setting Sun makes a headline, but it still fades below the horizon.

Wait a minute (2, Informative)

Stevyn (691306) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336464)

Sun sells unix. Linux is a free clone of Unix. Why would anyone expect Sun likes Linux.

They tried to make their own distro of Linux and that doesn't seem to be going anywhere. I guess Sun just has to be more competitive and work harder to get support contracts away from redhat.

Re:Wait a minute (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10336581)

Premise is partially wrong Sun doesn't really "sell unix". Sun is in the hardware and support business - this is where they make their money.

"They tried to make their own distro of Linux and that doesn't seem to be going anywhere. I guess Sun just has to be more competitive and work harder to get support contracts away from redhat."

See you knew that.

Yes I know this is flamebait.

Re:Wait a minute (1)

Stevyn (691306) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336661)

At my school we have a few "Sun" labs. They are sparc computers running solaris. The hardware and software is made by Sun. I'll admit that I don't know if solaris runs on top of unix or is based off unix, but you could see how they "sell unix" in, what I guess is, a loose sense.

Mod parent down (2, Interesting)

csoto (220540) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336480)

This is *news*? Geez.

Sun can't compete against Linux, because it's not a company. They can compete against Red Hat, SuSE, etc. These are companies. They make and sell stuff, including support contracts, etc.

Schwartz also states that he thinks Linux is a good proving ground, but Solaris is better, even at running Linux applications. Sounds like a good strategy, if people buy it. Now that Sun sells AMD boxes, as well as SPARC, it's a lot less of a hassle for their customers to try exactly that.

Ideologies (2, Informative)

AndreyF (701606) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336493)

Sun is a company, and will do whatever is most advantageous in the current market. It will never follow any ideology, it will only do what is going to make money... who thought any of theses companies really believe in free software as the FSF does?

What is with this duality. (5, Interesting)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336502)

You guys are going nuts on trying to figure out if Sun is Pro-Linux or against it. The truth the both and neither. If sun can make money off of Linux then they will support Linux in areas. If other Linux companies are cutting into their market share then they will play the Solaris Card and down the disadvantages of Linux. Suns stance on Linux was always this. Linux is good, but Solaris is better. So if people complain that Sun hardware w. Solaris is to big then hey lets use Linux and see if you want Solaris later. But if they want Solaris then they will go lets see if we can get rid of all those nasty Linux systems. Solaris Does have advantages over Linux and some really good scailing features. But for most companies and people linux does the trick. So Sun is Linux if you want but we rather you go with Solaris.

JDATE.COM IS A NAZI SITE (-1, Offtopic)

neoclassical (815205) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336504)

WARNING: JDATE.COM IS A NAZI PLOT

Imagine that you are from a fanatical racist cult that has lost one war
and plans to come back again and fulfill your fanatical aims. Your goal
is to seize power, smash your enemies and to kill every Jew on earth.

Last names are unreliable. To get a list of every Jew on earth, you
need to use the Internet to get them to sign up for something every
Jew needs, like an Internet dating service.

Recently, the joint ADL-ATF investigative team took a closer look
at JDATE.COM after rumors of a neo-Nazi connection. The shocking
results of our study confirm the worst fears of the Jewish
community: JDATE.COM is a Nazi site designed to collect names
for the next Holocaust!

JDATE is owned by:

Matchnet PLC
8383 Wilshire Blvd 800
Beverly Hills, CA 90211
Phone: 3238363000
Fax: 3238363333

Quick research in the corporate registry of America revealed that
Matchnet's shareholders include Reinhard Ebert and Maximilian
Himmler, grandson of Heinrich Himmler, the feared SS exterminator.
More disturbing, several other shareholders were "shadow companies"
in Western Germany for whom addresses and phone numbers lead to
dead ends.

This is called a "dead man corporation" because it is owned by people
who don't actually exist!

Reinhart Ebert, aka Richard Albert, is a former "enforcer" for the
German National Democratic Party, or NPD, which is essentially the
continuation of the German National Socialists from WWII! He created
"Project Trojan" which uses NORMAL WEBSITES to lure Jews to their
untimely deaths!

Maximilian Himmler, son of Josef Himmler, son of Heinrich Himmler,
feared leader of the SS Einsatzgruppen who exterminated over SIX
MILLION JEWS in Europe, is alive because his father fled to Brazil
after the war. He has made speeches at NPD meetings including the
chilling line, "...and we must continue the work of our forefathers
in removing PARASITES from the white world."

Don't be fooled by JDATE.COM!
Don't visit JDATE.COM!
Never give your information to JDATE.COM!

Maximilian Himmler's "Anti-Semitism Portal" website:
http://kikes.info

Reinhard Ebert's "German Nationalism" including "Project Trojan":
http://www.lostcluster.info

Never give your information to JDATE.COM!

For more information, contact the ADL Public Safety Initiative
at 202-857-6533 or www.adl.org on the Internet.

what?! (3, Funny)

nomadic (141991) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336505)

As I write this, there's no mention of this on Sun's website -- neither confirmation nor denial. What's going on?"

Are you serious?! Sun isn't posting their future strategies on a publicly accessible website?!?!? THAT'S INSANE!!

Not all bad (3, Insightful)

Jon Proesel (762574) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336507)

It's not all bad that they're advertising Linux as Red Hat. A lot of my non-tech friends have no idea what Linux is, but they do know what Red Hat is- they heard that name over and over when Red Hat made a strong IPO.

If those same guys even knew that Red Hat was an alternative operating system, that would be a huge step forward. Heck, even if one of them tries it out, they'd learn soon enough what Linux really was. Until then, let's take all the advertisement we can get. Just get Linux, Red Hat, whatever out there as well-known terms.

Objective question. (5, Insightful)

ScytheBlade1 (772156) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336508)

Okay, so let's assume here, that Sun is successful in "merging" Red Hat and Linux into one. First off, Microsoft has basically already done so, as any benchmark of windows vs. "linux" is Red Hat. Keep this point in mind.

So, we've had Microsoft preaching that linux IS Red Hat, for a while now.

Have the /. linux users gone down as a result? Have any of you switched your Red Hat (read: any linux distro) systems to windows server?

I know I know, businesses may have. But have YOU?

Apply the same to Sun, and take note of their respective sizes. Assuming that Sun pulls the "merge" off, just what exactly will it affect, compred to microsoft? MS isn't making any big dents (yet, time will tell), so how could Sun? (In a completly closed-mind view.)

I know, I know, in two years, MS might be a thing of the past, and then in 4 years, if it's not a SCO server then it's not worth anything. I won't debate how the future works, as it really is pointless.

If I may remind you all of a quote of Linus, which goes something to the point of, "My goals were never to destroy Microsoft. That will be a completly unintentional side effect." (Yeah, that's probably a horrible 'quote', but live with it, you get the point.)

So, why should you care if Sun does this? Sun can spout all the FUD they want, as can Microsoft, as can 'Red Hat' (read: any linux distro), but that doesn't change the fact that some PR FUD changed actual benchmarks, it doesn't change the prices, and it doesn't change what really works. If Sun does the job better than linux, go for Sun I say. If linux does it better, go with linux.

Just take note: using the 'PR' view, we should ALL be using Microsoft Server, linux it's worth 2 cents, and Sun is some upstart with millions, who's preaching against a 2 cent OS.

Form your own opinions, people. Chill.

Why Linux Users Hate Red Hat (0, Troll)

monsterhead78 (815842) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336512)

inux & Open Source Center Editor Steven Vaughan-Nichols knows that many Linux fans hate Red Hat. His message to them: Get over it.

After SCO, the company most hated by Linux fans is quite possibly ... no, not Microsoft, but Red Hat. I often hear longtime Linux enthusiasts say things like "Red Hat has betrayed Linux" and "Red Hat wants to be the next Microsoft."

If you look closely, it's not hard to see why so much ire is tossed on Red Hat. Late last year, Red Hat's CEO, Matthew Szulik, said that for home users today, Windows is probably "the right product line." That's sure to win the hearts and minds of Linux fans right there.

Then, Red Hat decided to kill off its low-end Linux distribution: Red Hat Linux. You would have thought from all the screaming in some Linux circles that Red Hat was proposing dog food be made from kittens. Some Linux fans even said Red Hat is on its way to becoming a proprietary software company.

Red Hat's corporate enemies and, in one case, a purported partner--Sun--are jumping on this last point It isn't true, of course. Red Hat is still an open-source company.

What is true, though, is that Red Hat mishandled the affair. Red Hat 9 had a life span of just over a year with its April 2003 release date and its end of support on April 30, 2004. Business customers, who usually expect to get at least three years of work out of an operating system, were as mad as wet hens to find their support disappearing from underneath them. Indeed, there's been enough outrage that several integrators including at least one mid-major Linux vendor--Progeny--are making a business of supporting Red Hat 9 customers.

The release of Fedora, Red Hat's free and cutting-edge Linux distribution, doesn't appear to have been enough for some of these users.

Of course, what Red Hat really wanted was to have its commercial customers switch to Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL). Some Linux fans were outraged because they felt they were being forced to upgrade.

Rant, rave, rant, rave ... there's a lot of hate out there aimed at Red Hat.

But you know what? There's nothing new about this. As early as 1999, I was writing stories about people who hated Red Hat for the same general reasons, which boil down to the fact that Red Hat is getting too big for its breeches. Heck, the ill-fated UnitedLinux consortium was in many ways an attempt by other Linux powers to take Red Hat down a peg.

Now, this isn't to say that Red Hat hasn't made mistakes. Both the timing and delivery of its message concerning the end of life for Red Hat 9 were awful. It placed many of its customers in the awkward position of having to upgrade before they were ready. It left others, including yours truly, completely bamboozled as to whether Red Hat would even continue to have a desktop distribution. As it happens, Red Hat is offering a Linux desktop, but there never should have been any doubt.

Nevertheless, the move itself was one that Red Hat had to make. For better or worse, Red Hat has decided that it wants its Linux distribution to be a high-end, profitable business distribution. Given that, the Raleigh, N.C., company had no choice but to leave Red Hat 9 behind so that it would no longer have two competing lines.

You know what? It's been a successful move. Red Hat's last quarter was its best ever. Why? In large part, it was because RHEL sales increased by 87,000 during the quarter while RHEL renewal rates remained at about 90 percent. Red Hat is a profitable Linux company, and it's getting more profitable.

Perhaps that's the real reason why Sun has been so grumpy with Red Hat. Sun is much bigger, but it's been declining, in large part due to competition from Linux in the server market, while Red Hat has been growing.

And maybe too that's the real problem some Linux fans have with Red Hat. The company has always been about open source and profits. To these fans, the idea that Linux is becoming mainstream, that their darling, iconoclastic operating system is no longer just for rebels, is abhorrent. For these vocal, malcontent users, Red Hat is the poster child of Linux's commercial success.

These users will likely always hate Red Hat, but you know what? Get over it. For those of us who want a solid Linux that will be successful in the enterprise, Red Hat--blunders and all--is doing just fine.

Everything's there... (3, Interesting)

Thaidog (235587) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336523)

If SUN really wanted to do this it could happen... But let's first face facts SUN's java desktop is ass. When they finish the 3D desktop enviornment "Looking glass" you'll finally have somthing on the x86 side that looks as good as OS X. then next is their new filesyatem ZFS... which sounds awsome. All this openedsourced and where would you go? I know I'll be downloading it! Solaris's backend is probably the best in the system and then have a desktop that's beautiful too? What more could you possibly want in an OS?

Childish (1)

rpbailey1642 (766298) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336525)

I know it's all business, but it seems kind of immature to me to put down other projects. Is Solaris so horrid that Sun can't trust the good features to outweigh the bad? Personally, I'd be more impressed if companies laid out all the facts, good and bad, about BOTH products and let the end-user decide. If Solaris is so awful that the only way they can get customers is to belittle the competition...maybe Sun needs to take an objective look at themselves instead of blaming everyone else.

Chaos Theory (4, Insightful)

kzinti (9651) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336527)

What's happening is that Sun is being run by chaos theory. How many different strategies has Sun had toward Linux over the past few years? How many different "philosophies" regarding open source? How many different strategies regarding x86 support? Maybe somebody who follows Sun more closely than I can answer some of these questions. I know it seems to me as if Sun changes direction more often than the wind. Name any important issue in the past few years and Sun will have had two or three positions on the issue - even more if you count the "unofficial" positions. They need a strong leader and sense of direction more desperately than any group except, maybe, the Democratic Party.

If I'm wrong, PLEASE let me know. I'm a Sun user and I like Sun, I really do... I just never know where they're going from one day to the next.

Let MS and Sun believe that Linux == Red Hat (5, Interesting)

IGnatius T Foobar (4328) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336534)

No problem. Let MS and Sun go right on believing that Linux == Red Hat. Let them even try to kill Red Hat if they can. We'll just keep doing what we've always done: building better software in and for the open source community. To use "their" terminology -- our Value Proposition continues to improve, year after year, relentlessly marching on, happily coexisting with (but not depending on) the corporations who operate within our space.

Seriously, if MS and Sun think they can beat Linux by beating Red Hat, let them believe that. It'll keep them off our backs while we build the next generation of superior software.

Some interesting weblog posts (5, Interesting)

wahgnube (557787) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336548)

A sun engineer's post [sun.com] on the issue of Sun "simply moving" to Linux.

And a good rebuttal [kroah.com] from a linux kernel hacker.

Anybody tried out Solaris 10 on x86? (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10336555)

RH has nothing to worry about.

Even though the whole world uses RedHat Linux ... (1)

at2000 (715252) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336568)

why can't other companies provide support for it? This is why we need open source.

Why would they confirm/deny this? (2)

guyfromindia (812078) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336569)

As I write this, there's no mention of this on Sun's website -- neither confirmation nor denial.
I am not sure why Sun should mention this in their website! If that is indeed their strategy, why would they publicise the fact and jeopardise Java Desktop System?

Not against Linux but Red Hat (2, Insightful)

upsidedown_duck (788782) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336570)


I doubt Sun hates Linux, but it is clear why they would dislike Red Hat. Red Hat is a true competitor against Solaris and Sun's own Linux distributions. Sun would play along with Red Hat as a reseller only as long as it takes to replace any Red Hat-branded software with Sun-branded software.

I still don't understand why the common culture at Slashdot is to bash Sun at all costs, even if it requires misinformation to do so. It's almost as bad as some of the rants for and against Microsoft, HP, Intel, etc. (not IBM, of course, because IBM paints penguins on sidewalks--that makes them all nice sugar and spice).

Sun's plan in the short term (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10336572)

is to gradually lose all of their customers by taking the middle of the road in all cases, until they promptly run themselves out of business.

Not concerned (1)

cimmer (809369) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336578)

I don't think this is anything to get worked up about. One cannot equate this with SCO's maliciously litigous actions, nor do I view this as an unfair turnabout on Sun's part. To claim that Sun is duplicitous for using Linux as part of a desktop solution while it is stating that the Solaris line of Operating Systems and its proprietary architecture is better suited to various aspects of enterprise computing is mob mentality.

Did anyone imagine the millions of dollars Sun has invested over the years in its products would simply be forgotten upon Sun's first exploration of supporting Linux commercially? Competition is the mother of all commercial software improvement. Sun is free to make the claim that its non-Linux products will serve enterprises more efficiently in certain capacities just as we are free to vet those claims.

As far as Sun being more prepared than Redhat to support large enterprise, it would seem to me that this goes without saying. Linux is still a relatively virgin product in large scale enterprise deployments and I think Redhat has yet to stake its/Linux's rightful claim in the enterprise computing space. I love Linux and choose to use it over Solaris where I work, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't consider Solaris for a larger deployment if Sun could come up with some compelling reasons.

The corporate world is aware enough of Linux now that mindless marketing will not dissuade companies from its use. Let Sun throw the gauntlet and we'll see where it goes. Who knows, maybe it will result in a couple of improved OS's.

are they? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10336579)

Is Sun turning against Linux and Redhat? Well, based on the article, no. What they are doing is turning against Redhat and all other Linux distro COMPANIES that commercially SELL distros in the business-to-business market.

I don't think they're trying to equate Linux with Redhat either. It sounds like what they're doing is trying to equate all commercial business-to-business Linux distro companies with Redhat. The idea seems to be that, if you are a business buying Linux for your servers, etc., then you're going to buy from Redhat or some other company which is essentially equivalent to Redhat. And after all, they have a point. Is there an x86 Linux vendor that has the kind of experience that Sun (or any other big Unix companies, like IBM) has at engineering and supporting complete systems? In my mind, there really isn't. They're not all exactly the same, and you may have your own preference, but basically they're all fairly similar in terms of experience as a company.

So, it sounds like a better way of putting this is that Sun isn't going to say anything bad about Linux. Instead, the idea is to attack the experience of using Linux that is provided/supported by a new, relatively inexperienced company in a business-to-business situation.

To make an analogy, think about a restaurant making a deal with a vendor to deliver them fresh apples. Sun has been delivering expensive Granny Smiths for years and now a new company is delivering Red Delicious somewhat cheaper, and there's kind of a buzz about Red Delicious apples. So, whereas Sun could say "Red Delicious apples suck; what you really want is Granny Smiths", what they've now (apparently/supposedly) decided to say is, "Yeah, to some extent an apple is an apple, but we think Granny Smiths are one of the best you can get, and furthermore, keep in mind our decades-long history of sending trucks out to your restaurant that always show up on time to deliver apples that are always really fresh and free of blemishes. And then think of how those other companies show up with Red Delicious apples that are usually good but every now and then not very fresh, and how they're sometimes late."

Of course, whether you believe Sun's apple delivery trucks really always show up on time is another question. But the point here is not whether Sun's marketing hype is accurate (whose really is?); the point is whether they're attacking Linux or what.

Sun's playing many games (1)

OutHouse (816159) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336589)

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/linuxunix/0,39020 390,39166542,00.htm

Sun sets up open-source Solaris project
Martin LaMonica
CNET News.com
September 14, 2004, 11:05 BST

The company aims to be an 'innovative leader' in the developer community

Sun Microsystems will create an open-source project around its Solaris 10 operating system by the end of the year, company executives said on Monday.

<---remainder edited--->

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/servers/0,39020 36 3,39167437,00.htm

Sun: We've turned over a new leaf
Stephen Shankland and Marguerite Reardon
CNET News.com
September 22, 2004, 08:20 BST

We didn't listen to customers, says Schwartz. Now, says the COO, Sun has had a change of heart

Sun Microsystems' executives have rarely been known for meekness, but the company's new chief operating officer took a tone of humility while arguing that the company has mended its ways.

<...edited...>

At the event, Sun announced a host of products and plans to try to seize the initiative from competitors, including IBM, Dell and Red Hat, that have gained customers at the expense of the Santa Clara, California-based server and software company. Among the new items: a plan to sell computing power for $1 per processor per hour; round-the-clock technical support for the Linux open-source operating; the new StorEdge 6920 midrange storage system; and a promotion that gives customers credits of between $560 and $1,250 for trading in servers with Intel Xeon processors for Sun servers with Advanced Micro Devices' Opteron chips.

-------
so, they're going to outprice everybody, make 'em subscribe for "value-added" services, take on linux (that's open source, isn't it?), and open up Solarix as open source. Sounds like a focused business strategy to me!

Sun Microsystems (0, Troll)

OklaKid (552472) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336617)

is run and operated by some of the most scizophrenic loonies in the computer industry...

Actually, I fing this very surprising . . . (4, Insightful)

erikharrison (633719) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336646)

Mostly because I didn't believe Sun to be that incredibly stupid.

I mean, it's not surprising that Sun isn't real happy about Linux. There are only three enterprise Unixes left: Irix, AIX, and Solaris. Only one hasn't been phased out by it's parent company for Linux. Sun's betting on being THE enterprise Unix vendor. Fighting Linux is a reasonable strategy.

But the Redhat == Linux == No Enterprise Power strategy is so dumb even MS figured out it was wrong. Fight Redhat, cool, Redhat is a competitor. But trying to fight Linux by pigeonholing it will never work. Linux is a technology. It's like AOL trying to fight the open Web by saying the Web == Earthlink == None of our wonderful proprietary content. It doesn't make any sense.

Sun will loose because the quality of their products doesn't matter because that quality only means anything in an IT world that is slowing ceasing to exist, and Sun can't figure out how to deal with it. Linus Torvalds is not your competitor! Your competitors are still IBM and SGI for the high end, custom hardware market (with Apple scooting in), and Redhat and Novell for the midrange commodity hardware market, even if they are all running Linux. IBM still has the resources to support Linux richly, so you can't win this battle this way, you'll just loose to IBM with Linux instead of Redhat.

I'd like to see Sun get this right. Linux needs someone to keep it honest, and the BSD's are becoming less and less general purpose, loosing their ability to compete in the exact same area's as the distros. Linux needs a competeing strong Unix kernel, and a competeing strong desktop kernel. We've got OS X and Windows - where is our enterprise server OS?

This may validate Linux (3, Insightful)

WindBourne (631190) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336652)

Well, if Sun turns on Redhat, it will allow Novell and the rest to profit. Basically, the others will be out in the field to tell companies that Redhat is not Linux. This shows that Linux easily survives a company.

I must be too old and stoopid to know better. (1, Troll)

GomezAdams (679726) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336664)

As I read this I have an install running on RH Enterprise Server 3. It's Biggest Blue's enterprise software, Directory Server w/ DB2, WebSphere, and a couple of other major apps that will eventually support an international corporation with thousands of users. I've seen this same setup handle even more users without breaking a sweat. I'm not that big a fan of Red Hat but the server distro scales great from single CPU to multi CPUs on big boxen. The install's going easier than the same stuff on M$ server software which I fought with for two weeks before switching to Red Hat. My next goal is to do the same install with SuSE server.

Just ignore the FUD pusher and keep on doing business with Linux. Idiots will eventually show themselves to be just that and then they fade off into obscurity.

Some perspective here... (1)

mantera (685223) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336669)


I respect/like/admire/trust Sun more than I respect/like/admire/trust Red Hat. Nuff said.

Where is the problem? (5, Insightful)

Yaztromo (655250) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336682)

I fail to see where the problem is, or how this exactly equates to Sun being anti-Linux.

Red Hat sells Linux. Sun sells Linux in the form of JDS. Sun is coming up with a strategy to encourage potential buyers to purchase from them by claiming that Red Hat isn't up to handling large enterprise accounts.

This is what competition is all about, folks. One of the great things about Open Source is that we can have multiple competing distributions. Mandrake and SuSe aren't buddy-buddy with Red Hat -- they compete with them as well. Do you somehow think that when they're competing with Red Hat for an account that they don't go in and try to show the potential buyer how they are better that Red Hat, or where Red Hat's weaknesses (perceived or otherwise) are?

This is the nature of competition. It doesn't mean that Sun is anti-Linux (although I don't believe that Sun is a great friend to Linux either). It's simple competition. This is news to anyone? Would anyone expect anything different between two competing companies? This is a complete non-story if I ever saw one.

Yaz.

Sun ignored Linux (4, Insightful)

I_redwolf (51890) | more than 9 years ago | (#10336686)

Sun had alot of interesting technology that could of kept them on top. Only if they weren't profit minded with certain parts of it. Their management doesn't seem to see things longterm but who could truly blame them. Who would of thought opensource would of been viable.

A while ago I read a paper by Larry McVoy which essentially detailed the current threats to Sun at the time. One of those threats was NT (well no one who actually knew anything about Unix at the time saw it as a threat but those were geeks not business minded people) and the other was Linux and what he termed Sourceware at the time.

The paper is still available http://www.bitmover.com/lm/papers/srcos.html [bitmover.com] to read.

I had the good fortune of speaking with LM about what happened to the Spring OS which is mentioned in the paper. His response was that nothing happened, it essentially died. Some of the interesting and functional bits made it into Solaris but thats about it.

From the paper A royalty free operating system. Sun wants this so badly that they are currently spending roughly the same amount as the Unix royalty stream to fund development of a royalty free operating system called Spring.

Obviously Sun didn't want it so badly and instead of seeing Linux as a moving target gaining speed many just shrugged it off. This, again, a mistake. I like Sun, they have extremely good hardware, documentation and support. They need to find a viable business plan and it would start by maybe re-reading this paper and compiling a new one assessing their current and future threats.

If Sun genuinely wanted to they could be a dominant player in the linux market, ahead of Redhat and Novell. No one does support like Sun; period. However, they just let the ball drop way too many times. If you read the paper carefully you'll see that Novell even though they are late to the game are pushing through with what they want. I wish them the best of luck.

Sun still has enough money to make a change but sometimes it's hard to let go of certain things. The reality is that Sun doesn't have to let go of it's main babies such as the Sparc or Solaris. If they truly want to keep them they could recommend them for high end usage in certain critical performance server areas. There's a whole host of different configurations they could keep those things specialized for but they just aren't serious.

Still, I wish Sun the best of luck. If this rumor is true, they are going to fumble the ball one last time.
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