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Slackware Likely To Drop GNOME Support

timothy posted more than 9 years ago | from the doesn't-stop-you-from-using-it dept.

GNOME 708

An anonymous reader writes "After Hewlett Packard, who jumped off of supporting GNOME, Red Hat has followed by splitting their Desktop Linux out to Fedora which is community driven, and now distributions like Slackware have started to drop GNOME entirely in favor of KDE. Read more about their decision here. It looks like companies as well as distributions start focusing towards one solution." Patrick Volderking's quoted message doesn't announce a final decision to drop GNOME from Slackware, however -- and as the followups in that thread note, it could be interpreted as an endorsement of the good job done by Dropline in packaging GNOME for Slack.

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YAY! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10487866)

Fizzle Pozzzile

Just saying hi! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10487868)

First? post?

YOU SO FUCKING FAIL IT! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10487888)

You are a failure in life, the universe, and everything. I wish you were dead.

YOU ARE SO FUCKING JEALOUS (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10487935)

you fucking steaming pile of shit. fuck you. fuck you you fucking shit. decapitate your mommas head and fuck her thorax you fucking fuck. yuo are teh fucking n00b.

Re:YOU ARE SO FUCKING JEALOUS (1)

FosterKanig (645454) | more than 9 years ago | (#10488093)

That's what I was going to say. Damn.

YOU FUCKING FAIL IT! (-1, Troll)

YOU FUCKING FAIL IT! (820747) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487946)

I WISH ALL FAILURES LIKE YOU WOULD BE WIPED FROM THE EARTH! Important Stuff # Please try to keep posts on topic. # Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads. # Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. # Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. # Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page) Important Stuff # Please try to keep posts on topic. # Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads. # Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. # Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. # Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page)

FP (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10487869)

FP MUTHA FUCKAS!

YOU FUCKING FAIL IT! (0, Troll)

YOU FUCKING FAIL IT! (820747) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487959)

I WISH ALL THE FAILURES WOULD GO TO HELL!

Important Stuff # Please try to keep posts on topic. # Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads. # Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. # Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. # Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page) Important Stuff # Please try to keep posts on topic. # Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads. # Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. # Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. # Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page)

FIRSTIE (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10487871)

YES SIR; YES INDEED WOW OGM! This is indeed the very very very first post ever on any site on he intarnat webwork!11 ogm ogm. yes.

About freakin' time (3, Funny)

ArmorFiend (151674) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487876)

Its about time one of them, I don't kare which one, got the upper hand and snowballed.

Re:About freakin' time (3, Funny)

kbranch (762946) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487895)

Its about time one of them, I don't kare which one, got the upper hand and snowballed.

Apparently you do...

Unmasked! (3, Insightful)

3riol (680662) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487932)

"I don't
kare"

I thought this rejoicing had something suspicious to it...

More seriously, this whole thing sounds sensationalist to me... RedHat adopting a community model with Fedora, and one fed-up maintainer for a redundant Slackware package do not a mass defection maketh. The HP bit might be worrisome, but.

Most of all, I fail to see how one environment 'getting the upper hand' can possibly be construed as a Good Thing. Nobody serious clamors for less operating systems, less trouser styles, or less pencils. And GNOME is definitely the more professional and efficiently designed, from a purely UI perspective, of the large Free desktop environments.

You know... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10487877)

You know, if the editors actually read their own site, they would see that this has been talked about here for days, not least in every recent thread about Gnome.

Re:You know... (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10487929)

Well some of us hadn't heard of this until now, so obviously a new story about it was necessary.

I like GNOME... (4, Insightful)

AvantLegion (595806) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487881)

... but I think it's time to start seeing distros NOT contain every software package, desktop environment, etc, under the sun.

Choice is good, but if we're going to have a million different distros, then we don't need every single one to have all million software packages too.

Re:I like GNOME... (4, Insightful)

BenjyD (316700) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487896)

especially as Slack is basically a one-man distro. I'd rather have one good desktop than two buggy ones.

You know you don't have to install *EVERYTHING* (4, Insightful)

Colin Smith (2679) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487949)

It's not compulsory.

Re:You know you don't have to install *EVERYTHING* (5, Insightful)

AvantLegion (595806) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487969)

>> It's not compulsory.

No, but I have to learn what a million different things ARE just to pick what I want.

Do a minimal install. (2, Insightful)

khasim (1285) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487978)

Then add the stuff you want after.

That's what I do with Debian.

Gentoo! (5, Funny)

maskedbishounen (772174) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487989)

I'll let the zealots take over from here... ;~)

Re:You know you don't have to install *EVERYTHING* (1)

Slayk (691976) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487988)

Uncheck the box associated with the DE you don't want.

Not hard. Same goes for the most general packages in Slack, and most other distros I've installed.

Re:You know you don't have to install *EVERYTHING* (1)

Gherald (682277) | more than 9 years ago | (#10488109)

> Uncheck the box associated with the DE you don't want.

It's not so simple, given that the one you DO leave checked is going to be of lesser quality simply because the developers have twice the work maintaining seperate DEs...

Re:You know you don't have to install *EVERYTHING* (3, Insightful)

blowdart (31458) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487992)

No, it's marketing. It doesn't seem enough to simply release/sell a *nix OS any more. Package up 4 CDs worth of ISO images with 17 different text editors and hey, you can say you get all this software which you have to pay extra for on Windows.

Of course add to this an install that doesn't explain what the differences are, dependencies that fill your hard drive, stuff that fights with each other when you just tell it to install everything because you don't know what else to do and frankly it rapidly becomes a useless marketing exercise.

Re:You know you don't have to install *EVERYTHING* (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10488029)

> It's not compulsory.

Actually, if you want to run the best-of-breed programs, both KDE and Gnome libaries are compusatory. Limiting yourself to just K* or just G* stuff is basically only for zealots or people with 1GB hard drives.

Re:I like GNOME... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10488053)

Try telling that to the KDE zealots who are *still* attacking Bruce Perens for dropping KDE from UserLinux.

Might be a good idea (4, Insightful)

agent dero (680753) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487883)

This is probably a good idea, for every old joe-schmoe who installs linux, there can be more or less, a unified 'look'

Being more partial to KDE than GNOME, I don't really see a problem with it, but packaging it is the way to go. If it's a package, that can be 'apt-got' (just for example ;)), then it probably makes life much easier for everybody.

I'd consider switching (1)

MadFarmAnimalz (460972) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487885)

The new fileselector pisses me off bad enough that I'd consider switching for the express purpose of spiting the gnome devs who cooked THAT one up.

Re:I'd consider switching (3, Insightful)

B2382F29 (742174) | more than 9 years ago | (#10488095)

Well, the fileselector is much better than the old gnome-file-selector.

Now with gnome 2.8 and udev+dbus+hal the new fileselector rocks! Navigation is much quicker (due to the "directory buttons"). Try it a while, you will love it if you just forget the Microsoft/KDE training you had.

Excellent... (5, Insightful)

SaDan (81097) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487887)

Less bloat for the install. Now maybe we can get Slackware back down to one CD for installation!

I've used KDE and Gnome before, even somewhat recently, but just can't stand the overhead. They both look great, but I'm much happier in Fluxbox. All I do is work in xterms all day anyways.

From what I've heard, Dropline Gnome really is an excellent package. Makes sense for Slackware to drop Gnome support, if there's already an excellent source for a Gnome package for Slackware.

Kudos to both Patrick V. and the Dropline Gnome maintainers! This is how open source should work.

Re:Excellent... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10488008)

I've used Dropline Gnome, and it literally does just drop into Slackware. Installation was incredibly painless. I can't say I'm disappointed at all that this division of labor has come about, since it only makes sense. Thanks, Dropline! Thanks, Patrick!

ya got it wrong (3, Insightful)

Professor Cool Linux (759581) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487892)

its not that pat wants one DE its that gnome is taking too much effort for so little when dropline is good enough.

I hate KDE (2, Insightful)

wobedraggled (549225) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487902)

It feels like Windows, which is what I'm TRYING to avoid.... But whatever get us to the masses quicker I guess... [/annoyed]

Re:I hate KDE (1)

lee7guy (659916) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487955)

Exactly.

Not that Windows has the worst UI ever built, but I'd rather see people swith to Linux desktops because they offer some new ideas and/or are better in some ways. Not because it looks and works almost the same as windows but much cheaper...

Hopefully it is as the story suggests, a tribute to the works of the Garnome team.

Re:I hate KDE (5, Insightful)

0racle (667029) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487958)

KDE can be anything you want it to be. You might have to work at it, but unlike Gnome recently, KDE still gives you all of the configuration options you could want to make the system your own. Chances are that the default is 'Windows like' because since almost everyone has used that, its a good starting point and middle ground.

The only problem is (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10488105)

It will still be extremely bloated.

Long live GTK/XFce/Flux/IceWM!

Re:I hate KDE (-1, Troll)

Misinformed (741937) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487983)

Don't be jealous because you have a small penis. You were born that way, look for something positive to take your frustrations out on... perhaps you could join the police or study a CompSci degree?

Exactly! (5, Funny)

casuist99 (263701) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487994)

Why do we have to follow the conceptual desktop UI that MS has laid out? Linux should follow the path to what makes using it easier. A single button under which everything is nested seems unnecessary - there have to be better ideas out there.

In the meantime, I've dropped Gnome on my FC2 box in favor of Windowmaker. It's much much faster, eats many fewer resources, and completely avoids the whole "taskbar" concept. And on the plus-side, my roommates are no longer able to use my computer to do anything because they don't know how to work windowmaker. It's just a blank screen with some funky icons and a paperclip!

Not so bad! (4, Interesting)

Lispy (136512) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487908)

Most Slackware Gnome addicts use Dropline anyway since it's a very lively, well maintained project.
If Todd of Dropline and Patrick work together this could be pretty good for both projects. Of course there is PAM integration in Dropline that Patrick dislikes and therefore he won't include it in the "official" CD set. Slack with Dropline is in fact the best Desktop-Linux Experience I ever had.

Let's hope Todds servers can handle all the load following a slashdotting. ;-)

Gnome is Dying! (4, Funny)

Arghdee (813921) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487909)

Look out BSD! Gnome is coming your way! /karma to burn

Re:Gnome is Dying! (1)

dhakbar (783117) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487925)

Unfortunately, you don't have any wit to burn along with that karma.

Fag.

It's not April Fools Day, is it? (2)

mkavanagh2 (776662) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487912)

This makes me want to throw up. I just can't stand KDE's UI, or Qt for that matter. To put it simply: KDE is fugly. GNOME is (in comparison to KDE) slick and poetically designed.

Of course, XFCE kicks the pants off both of them, but that's another argument.

Re:It's not April Fools Day, is it? (1)

Lispy (136512) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487923)

Easy, use Dropline! ;-)

Re:It's not April Fools Day, is it? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10487952)

Don't you get fedup with the massive icons and complete inflexibility in GNOME? Plus its in C.

Re:It's not April Fools Day, is it? (1)

lee7guy (659916) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487965)

Plus its in C.

And?

Re:It's not April Fools Day, is it? (2, Informative)

Arker (91948) | more than 9 years ago | (#10488017)

RTFA. Not an æsthetic decision. Patrick is sick and tired of struggling with GNOME compilation, which is by all accounts a bear, and Slack users that want GNOME haven't been using his builds for awhile anyway. They use Dropline, so there's not really much point in Patrick spending so much time wrestling with GNOME to get it to compile.

XFCE! (1)

maskedbishounen (772174) | more than 9 years ago | (#10488018)

XFCE [xfce.org] 4.2 Beta 1 was released a week ago. It still has some quirks, but overall quite nice. A great improvement over 4.0.6 (stable)!

Worth a look if you like GTK, but don't like the bloat of GNOME. Or if you like Fluxbox, but want something with more eyecandy.

As a long time GNOME user... (5, Interesting)

Ianoo (711633) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487913)

I'm begining to face facts. I still think that GNOME looks better, and is, in many ways, easier to use. But KDE has even made huge progress in these areas in the last year (especially with Konqueror and new skins that finally *don't* look horrible, at least to my eye).

GNOME still has nominally better applications in certain key areas compared to KDE, for example, Ximian Evolution. However, again, KDE has made enourmous progress in this area, all in the last year. It boggles my mind to see how quickly this gap has dissapeared in one area - compare Instant Messaging in KDE and GNOME two years ago (nothing vs Gaim) to now, Kopete has developed so quickly it's just amazing.

One thing I did miss in KDE was Mozilla. But now, we can even use Gecko as a rendering engine in Konqueror, so even, like me, if you considered that KHTML was inferior to Gecko, this "advantage" for GNOME has now dissapeared (also thanks to Apple and Safari).

I still think KDE needs some work, especially in the ease-of-use department (too many settings presented to the user, some intelligent hiding would be appreciated) - but this is improving. And, even as a GNOME user, I have to admit that C++ as a basis is a much superior choice to C, especially considering the kludge that seems to underly GNOME, separate libraries for GTK and GNOME applications with surprisingly few applications taking advantage of the GNOME-only libraries.

If you look at the distributions on the shelves, SuSE is KDE, Mandrake is KDE, Linsipre is KDE (with modifications). You can't buy Fedora at PC World. Any new user getting interested in Linux would probably go here first, and by consequence they're going to get KDE.

So whilst I will keep GNOME around for a while yet, and I think the "race" is far from over (who says there has to be a winner anyway? The whole concept of a "war" is just completely silly), if KDE goes on to become the defacto Linux desktop, then I won't shed that many tears. Of course, GNOME, I'm sure, will be around for a long while yet.

On the shelves? (1)

Ars-Fartsica (166957) | more than 9 years ago | (#10488013)

If you look at the distributions on the shelves, SuSE is KDE, Mandrake is KDE, Linsipre is KDE (with modifications).

Seriously, where is this shelf? Even Fry's doesn't display these distros.

Re:As a long time GNOME user... (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10488039)

As a long time KDE user, I've recently realised the opposite. I tried out GNOME and found all the crap I'd read about it was totally untrue.

For a start, Evolution was simply in a different league from apps like Kmail... *if* you want to do anything more than simple POP3/SMTP email. Kmail is badly broken when you try anything ambitious with it, and I was rather shocked to realise how many bugs and crashes I was subconciously working around. Evolution was a, forgive the choice of words, a revelation.

As for the developer GNOME experience... I was up and coding with GTKMM (the c++ wrappers for GNOME and GTK) in no time. In fact, I found them better organised than much of KDE -- even though the underlying Qt is a fine class library and well documented. The KDE code above is... well... less than satisfactory. I've been quite surprised to find how well organised, designed and coded most of GNOME is. I really shouldn't have listened to all the slashdot bullshit over the years.

The desktop itself was also impressively organised and simple. There are a few Nautilus niggles that irritate me... but I was up and running in no time. I even ran a small test with friends of mine, and found that GNOME's organisation and attention to user-experience was vastly superior to KDE (even the later versions).

In summary, I've spent a few years listening to crap about GNOME. I wish I'd tried it earlier. As far as I'm concerned it is now a much better desktop than KDE -- and GNOME apps (with one exception: CD burning, for some reason these apps are a bit naff under GNOME) are considerably more advanced than those I got used to under KDE.

Re:As a long time GNOME user... (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10488082)

For a start, Evolution was simply in a different league from apps like Kmail...

Slackware doesn't ship Evolution.

As for the developer GNOME experience... I was up and coding with GTKMM (the c++ wrappers for GNOME and GTK) in no time.

Slackware doesn't ship gtkmm.

In summary, I've spent a few years listening to crap about GNOME. I wish I'd tried it earlier.

Now try building it.
[ Reply to This ]

Re:As a long time GNOME user... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10488106)

Slackware doesn't ship Evolution.

Your point?

Slackware doesn't ship gtkmm.

Your point?

*In summary, I've spent a few years listening to crap about GNOME. I wish I'd tried it earlier.

Now try building it.

I have. I used jhbuild to test out the very latest CVS of GNOME. It builds just fine from source -- however, I try to avoid building from source as much as possible. It's really not necessary unless you happen to be a developer for the software itself.

Re:As a long time GNOME user... (4, Interesting)

ReinoutS (1919) | more than 9 years ago | (#10488055)

I have to admit that C++ as a basis is a much superior choice to C,
If you observe recent discussions on the GNOME mailinglists, you'll see that the GNOME community realises that it should be facilitated to create GNOME apps using higer level languages. Since there's a deadlock in the C#/Java debate, Python stands a good chance.
SuSE is KDE, Mandrake is KDE, Linsipre is KDE (with modifications).
Don't know about SuSE and Linspire, but Mandrakesoft does deliver a first class GNOME desktop with its distro, it's just not picked as the default option.

Re:As a long time GNOME user... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10488068)

1. GNOME is the main distribution for corporate desktops. KDE is simply nowhere -- Novell are basically just gladhanding KDE zealots to prevent them from going off on one of their infamous jihads against SuSE. IBM's forthcoming desktop is GNOME-based. Sun is GNOME-based. KDE is... what?

2. No-one, and I mean *NO-ONE* who matters gives a flying fuck what Slackware does. Slackware might have had a user base 5 years ago, but these days... nothing. Slackware is in a similar position as the other minor and virtually irrelevant Linux distributions -- the difference is that at least some of those distros are minor because they try something radical. Slackware is just old and busted.

3. This is yet another slashdot GNOME-bashing story. It's tiresome. Go and bore someone else, zealots.

Damnit (1)

John Courtland (585609) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487918)

I just installed GNOME at work. Is KDE really that much better? I really HATE QT but I suppose GTK isn't much better. All I know is from like 3 years ago or so, when they both really sucked. I try to stay away from X, but I need it at work for certain things. Is there a good technical reason I should uninstall GNOME and head over to KDE? No zealots, please. You guys are too crazy for me :p

Re:Damnit (1)

AvitarX (172628) | more than 9 years ago | (#10488057)

There is no reason to uninstall Gnome.

One reason to install KDE is the hybrid GUI command line Konqeror with terminal split.

Another is the BeOS Window decoration, with it you title bars take up not more space then needed and you can slide them around to tab you windows.

Also, like your menues all in the same place at the top (Like on a Mac)?, KDE supports this for K apps really well.

Re:Damnit (1)

seringen (670743) | more than 9 years ago | (#10488069)

There's no technical advantage one way or the other. sometimes kde has nicer configuration of advanced options like samba, and gnome 2.8 has hal and dbus integration. HAL and DBUS combined with gnome-volume-manager is the number one reason to use gnome instead of all the super/submount kludges. However, if you are used to NOT using X, you might as well just go with fluxbox (or other lightweight solution), which is what i use on my laptop combined with /usr/libexec/gnome-settings-daemon to make firefox look decent.

Re:Damnit (1)

WindBourne (631190) | more than 9 years ago | (#10488089)

A number of years ago, I coded on Gnome and GTK (for the Mars global Surveyor). At that time, I felt like there were lots of cludges. I have always been with KDE/qt from the gitgo. I have found that qt is from the ground up, mostly well designed library. Personally, I would prefer more independence from the trolls, but overall they do a good job.

If you are a true OO person or prefer C++, give serious thought to switching. If you are procedural or prefer C, stay. But the development speed of qt is pretty good.

packagin (0, Troll)

Coneasfast (690509) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487924)

Right now, I think
removing it would be the best thing for Slackware as it's become a maintainance nightmare (unlike nearly every other ./configure'ed source, GNOME doesn't build into packages easily with DESTDIR).


now even i thought slackware's packaging system was sufficient (despite what others say), but if you are building and packaging by relying on DESTDIR, you really do need a change in the packaging system.

Re:packagin (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10487973)

now even i thought slackware's packaging system was sufficient (despite what others say), but if you are building and packaging by relying on DESTDIR, you really do need a change in the packaging system.

This is how every packaging system does it. I can only surmise you have never read a .spec file.

Re:packagin (2, Insightful)

Alan Hicks (660661) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487987)

Right now, I think removing it would be the best thing for Slackware as it's become a maintainance nightmare (unlike nearly every other ./configure'ed source, GNOME doesn't build into packages easily with DESTDIR). now even i thought slackware's packaging system was sufficient (despite what others say), but if you are building and packaging by relying on DESTDIR, you really do need a change in the packaging system.

It's better to have the world think you're a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Slackware's package manager doesn't give a damn about DESTDIR. Let me repeat that. pkgtool et al don't give a damn about DESTDIR. DESTDIR is just a nice way of placing all files compiled to be put into /usr into another directory that can then be packaged up. This is immaterial to the package manager, no matter what damn package manager it is.

Really, what's happened to the linux community? The trolls used to have some idea of what they were talking about.

Not to nitpick..... (5, Insightful)

nzkoz (139612) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487926)

HP and Redhats actions are completely different. HP sponsored SCO's roadshow, so we know how relevant their opinion is. And Redhat's Fedora uses GNOME by default!


Sure, slackware is considering dropping gnome support, but this isn't some kind of mass migration away from GNOME, look at what Novell & Sun base their linux desktops on.


Kudos to the submitter for successfully trolling the editors

Endorsement? Probably not. (2, Informative)

ThatComputerGuy (123712) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487928)

"and as the followups in that thread note, it could be interpreted as an endorsement of the good job done by Dropline in packaging GNOME for Slack."

Key word there is "could". After the fiasco with swaret, it's unlikely for many 3rd party packages to get Pat's blessing. And as I noted on the DLG forum (I'm TransAMrit), I didn't see any real endorsement from the emails.

For those of you that don't know about swaret, it was given a trial by being placed in Slackware's extra/ dir a while back. It failed miserably, doing lots of things wrong, breaking systems left and right, so of course, it was taken out of the official tree. But still, lots of people swear by swaret. That is, until they get bit by it. Then the blame is associated not with a half-assed 3rd party utility, but Slackware itself.

I'm not saying anything about the quality of DLG here, but it's easy to see that you don't want the above situation repeated many times.

About focusing (1)

Masa (74401) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487931)

In this case, I think, it's not about focusing to some specific windowing environment / framework. The real reason for (possibly) dropping the GNOME from future releases seems to be much simpler: Pat just feels that building and supporting GNOME is too much trouble and it takes too much time away from the more important stuff.

So, don't take this case as an indication of companies focusing to KDE. If you want to seek some message from Pat's possible actions, then it would be that the building process of the GNOME might be too complicated. Nothing else.

A cluecheck for the zealots... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10487933)

1. GNOME is the main distribution for corporate desktops. KDE is nowhere -- Novell are basically just gladhanding KDE zealots to prevent them from going off on one of their infamous jihads against SuSE. IBM's forthcoming desktop is GNOME-based. Sun is GNOME-based. KDE is... what?

2. No-one, and I mean *NO-ONE* who matters gives a flying fuck what Slackware does. Slackware might have had a user base 5 years ago, but these days... nothing. Slackware is in a similar position as the other minor and virtually irrelevant Linux distributions -- the difference is that at least some of those distros are minor because they try something radical. Slackware is just old and busted.

3. This is yet another slashdot GNOME-bashing story. It's tiresome. Go and bore someone else, zealots.

Re:A cluecheck for the zealots... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10487964)

I think you're forgetting the most important factor, which overrides all those you mentioned - GNOME sucks.

Re:A cluecheck for the zealots... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10488104)

1 - who says that Novell will use Gnome as the default desktop? IBM is sponsoring KDE, so who knows they will use KDE in the end. SUN's corporate desktop... since when did SUN have a significant share in the desktop market? KDE is what? KDE is the default on mandrake, suse, and others, and the only desktop on most desktop-based distributions like xandros, linspire, lycoris....

2 - on what do you base that Slackware has no user base?

3 - it's not a bashing story, just a report about a mail in the dropline forum.

HIG (2, Interesting)

LazyPhoenix (773952) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487937)

As a perpetual distro switcher, I've tried my hand at both gnome and kde. IMO, the KDE folks, in terms of visual style and interface, seem to be much more of a windows knockoff, and, on the other hand, the GNOME folks seem to actually be interested in usability and human interface guidelines.

I think having multiple GUI environments is an asset to linux, but as for me and my house, I'll take GNOME for it's beauty and interface. K3b is the only KDE app that GNOME seems to lack a real counterpart to.

now back to your regularly scheduled flames and trolling.

Re:HIG (1)

Homology (639438) | more than 9 years ago | (#10488084)

As a perpetual distro switcher, I've tried my hand at both gnome and kde.

You don't have to switch to another distro just to try out another desktop. But then I suppose it's a Linux thing to always install the latest hot Linux distro ;-)

bah red hat! (2, Insightful)

tetsugin (820695) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487938)

I don't see the logic behind dropping support for GNOME when considering the two primary purposes people use it: 1) Uses less resources than KDE 2) Some people prefer the general feel of GNOME to to KDE. The important being the former because alot of people love linux due to it's efficient and low resource usage (on top of it's stability and flexibility ;)), being able to load Linux on their low-end machines to be work horses. Pushing people to KDE may be logical in a "convert windows users" approach but in terms of the majority of the linux community KDE isn't even used. Then again, alot of people (myself including) don't bother with a GUI and let the pretty colored text on black background get the job done :)

Re:bah red hat! (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10488083)

>but in terms of the majority of the linux community KDE isn't even used.

Check online polls, KDE always comes out as no 1.
Look at awards, KDE usually wins the award for being the best available desktop environment

So in terms of the majority of the Linux community, KDE is de leader :)

Heck, even Linus likes KDE over gnome :)

Re:bah red hat! (2, Insightful)

Homology (639438) | more than 9 years ago | (#10488113)

I don't see the logic behind dropping support for GNOME when considering the two primary purposes people use it: 1) Uses less resources than KDE

If you are low on resources, neither KDE or Gnome is an option if you care about speed. I use KDE on my desktop, but for my elderly PII laptop, I use XFCE [xfce.org] that is much less resource hungry.

I miss Gnome 1.4 (1, Interesting)

strredwolf (532) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487941)

I really do. 2.0 (with the 2.x GTK series) really messed things up, and with more and more crud going in, the good stuff going out...

I switched to KDE. It's much cleaner. So much cleaner. I'm now tempted to build Mozilla with QT.

An Opinion on GNOME (5, Insightful)

Alan Hicks (660661) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487944)

Until Pat weighs in on this publically I'm not certain about the validity of this claim.

Gnome has long ago lost focus on its goals. It used to be geared towards linux users. It was meant to be a fast and customizable linux DE. Somewhere between 1.4 and 2.0 Gnome development changed. It lost sight of those goals and became geared towards newbies and end-users.

Frankly, it never was as good as KDE at that. Being "user friendly" meant changing the reasons so many of us used and liked Gnome, alienating their base. Gnome became difficult to compile and even more difficult to package. Why can't Gnome install nicely using "make install DESTDIR=~/pkg"?

Pat mentioned in that e-mail that about a third of his time is spent trying to support Gnome, which given the entire size of Slackware is apalling. Spending a third of your time supporting what is around a twelth of the system's size will wear out anyone.

My personal hope is that the Gnome developers will wake up, get their asses in gear, and realize that they're not going to beat KDE on usability for newbies. They need to return to being the fast, custimizable linux DE. I suspect that most of Gnome's old users are now using a plain window manager or Xfce (good stuff).

The sky is falling! The sky is falling! (5, Interesting)

Noryungi (70322) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487945)

Please note three things real quick before screaming:

  1. Patrick Volkerding has been wondering about Gnome since version 1.4 ... So far, he hasn't taken a decision yet...
  2. The same empty rumors have been circulating about KDE... KDE is still in Slackware...
  3. This rumor comes from Dropline Gnome (a site that provides the latest version of Gnome for Slackware), and is attributed to someone who is totally unkown on their site/forum.

All in all, this is not a final decision, it's just a rumor . As long as Patrick Volkerding has not removed Gnome and annouced it either on the Slackware website or in the ChangeLog, I won't believe it...

And this was typed on a Slackware 10 machine running XFCE... Which, IMHO, is so much better than Gnome... ;-)

Re:The sky is falling! The sky is falling! (4, Informative)

ThatComputerGuy (123712) | more than 9 years ago | (#10488015)

Hi. I'm the guy that runs the BitTorrent tracker that's been used for the past few Slackware releases ( http://transamrit.net:8082/ ). So, I suppose this should give me a teensy bit of credibility.

Having said that:

1. Pat's said that he wasn't eager about adding GNOME in the beginning. He's still regretting it.

2. Rumors about KDE? Well, they're just rumors. These aren't rumors about KDE, they're straight from The Man himself. Both of those emails mentioned in the DLG thread linked above are real. I've even clarified what I could in my post (as TransAMrit).

3. Yes, the person that posted the first email appears to be unknown to the forum, as am I. So, you can say that I may be bullshitting as well, but... well, you've gotta believe someone, don't you? :)

And you're right, this is not a final decision. However, it is NOT a rumor. It is a decision that Pat has said he needs to make.

He just hasn't made it yet :)

Pat's arguments (5, Insightful)

Andreas(R) (448328) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487951)

I think removing it would be the best thing for Slackware as it's become a maintainance nightmare (unlike nearly every other ./configure'ed source, GNOME doesn't build into packages easily with DESTDIR).

This was Patricks' argument for dropping GNOME. Instead of dropping GNOME support, why not communicate with the GNOME community to resolve the issues? This is really a minor technial issue, and I'm sure things can easily be done to make including GNOME as easy as KDE.

Anyway, I'm sure Slackware will never drop GNOME support. People will stop using the distribution in a second!

This is probably why having a single "dicator" maintaining a distribution is a bad idea: He has very little contact with the community. It's not possible for other's to get involved with the development process either. It would be a trivial task to make someone else maintain the GNOME sources in Slackware.

I like Slackware, running slack 10 now, but this makes me change my mind.

Gnome... KDE... and hell, throw in some more! (1)

SphericalCrusher (739397) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487956)

Don't get me wrong, I like KDE a lot, but I started using Linux in the GNOME DE environment and that's really where I want to stay. No, I'm not afraid of change... at all. I just think that we should not totally eliminate all of the desktop environments down to just one for the commercial versions, simply because choice is good. Heh, if we could, I would like to see even more DEs thrown into the game play. GNOME and KDE aren't the only ones around, and even though they may be two of the best, I'd really like to see and hear more about the others.

Who cares what a few distros pick for WM (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10487975)

These breathless announcements about open source projects as though they were corporations competing and liable to go bankrupt and disappear is they lose the edge are so missing the point. There is no immenent bankruptcy about to send Gnome off the edge of cliff where they sell off all the Aeron chairs and fire all the employees by SMS message becuase X Brand distro has gone with the "competition" and now the Gnome stock has tanked.
That didn't happen.
This whole corporate cut throat mentality is so ingrained in people that they immediately apply it to everything and the fact is, it doesn't really matter in open source.
The only thing that would endanger Gnome would be if computer storage suddenly began to shrink and it was no longer possible to offer several windows managers. That's hardly the case. Hell, LiveCDs that come on old fashioned CD-Rs usually have room for KDE, Gnome, IceWM and a half dozen others. Even these stripped down distros are still unable to take advantage of the now cheap DVD-R because it's just too freakin' much space. It's just not necessary to use all the space that is available.
This isn't a winner-take-all market based development model. There's room for twenty, no make that a thousand, more windows managers.

non sequitur (4, Insightful)

kingmundi (54911) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487980)

Latin phrase meaning, "It does not follow." The characteristic feature of arguments that fail to provide adequate support for their conclusions, especially those that commit one of the fallacies of relevance.

"After Hewlett Packard, who jumped off of supporting GNOME, Red Hat has followed by splitting their Desktop Linux out to Fedora which is community driven, and now distributions like Slackware have started to drop GNOME entirely in favor of KDE."

Obviously GNOME sucks... (4, Insightful)

Coryoth (254751) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487982)

What's up with the quality of trolling on Slashdot these days? Even the article summary trolls are poorly written and transparent these days.

Fedora and Redhat Workstation default to using GNOME for the desktop. Novell hasn't cancelled Ximian's GNOME efforts, and is in fact working on improving GNOME in SuSE. Solaris and Sun JDS both use GNOME.

Not that KDE isn't doing very well for itself as well, with SuSE being a very nice KDE oriented distro, not to mention Mandrake, and many others.

Both are doing just fine - the prospect of some distros focussing on one is not surprising, but I'd hardly call it significant. The whole DE flamewar is mostly rather silly. FreeDesktop.org is doing a good job and increasing cooperation and shared functionality between, not just KDE and GNOME, but XFCE, WindowMaker/GNUStep, and even, to some extent whatever new DE Enlightenment eventually turns out. There are different desktop needs, and different DEs pursue very different goals. As long as FreeDesktop.org manages to continue its efforts to define some good shared base standards things will work just fine.

Jedidiah.

KDE and Gnome comming together (1)

pfriedma (725399) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487984)

Does any one see the possibilty of KDE and Gnome merging at some point to provide a general WM solution? Compared to the differences between say, FluxBox and KDE, the differences between Gnome and KDE (interface wise) are relativly small and both of them provide a similar UI (main menu, taskbar, desktop w/program icons, pannel applets, etc). Personally I can see a lot of benefit taking the best features out of both KDE and Gnome and making a 'complete' WM. Do you agree?

As a long time Slack user... (1)

Rooktoven (263454) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487991)

I'd be disappointed, but that's about it. I don't use gnome as a desktop-- I use Fluxbox and occasionally KDE-- but I do run a lot of apps that use Gnome/GTK2 settings. Thus I use the gnome-settings-daemon to give a unified look to Firefox, thunderbird, Gaim and the Gimp, to name a few.

Perhaps because I don't use Gnome as a desktop I've preferred Pat's implementation of it. (Less work and all...) That said, I usually end up having to do some compiling to get the (non-essential) Gnome stuff like gphoto running.

This certainly wouldn't make me quit using Slackware, though if Pat put out a limited Gnome framework I would probably still use that over Dropline-- Just because I could rsync slackware-current and upgradepkg *.tgz.

BS detector (1, Informative)

Ars-Fartsica (166957) | more than 9 years ago | (#10487999)

I think it can be safely said that the notion that distros are uniformly dumping GNOME in favor of KDE is utter BS.

Fedora, Ubuntu, Suse, RHEL, blah blah etc are all seriously GNOME-oriented.

Suse = KDE's best friend (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10488063)

Nitpick: Suse is seriously KDE-oriented (and always has been). They just happen to be owned by Novell now, who also own Ximian, who are seriously gnome-oriented.

I, for one (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10488001)

I, for one, hail our new KDE overlords!

What I'd prefer (1)

SCHecklerX (229973) | more than 9 years ago | (#10488012)

Get rid of them both. Stick with straight GTK+ apps, and a nice filer like ROX, with your window manager of choice. Both Gnome and KDE have become too messy. Sure wish we had an 'environment' for linux that was more like OS/2's WPS.

I like Gnome but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10488020)

I like Gnome, but the last time I tried to do an upgrade, it was a disaster. In fact, it still doesn't work 100%. I was truly disapointed because I do like Gnome over KDE. But KDE was much easier to get working.

I don't know why I'm having so much trouble with Gnome (the 2.6 release), because previous upgrades were rather straight forward. The biggest problem is that the menus and desktop icons are screwed up. The menus are flooded with duplicate entries and the icons for users other than root are missing. If I add a new user, the desktop for that user is completely hosed and has to be completely reconfigured by hand to get it to look right. I have no idea why this is happening. Completely wiping Gnome (libraries and all) and doing a full fresh rebuild and install didn't help.

I want to go back to Gnome, but it's gotten so complicated to install that it just isn't worth putting up with the problems.

I'm waiting for next week's announcement: (0, Flamebait)

Cid Highwind (9258) | more than 9 years ago | (#10488040)

"Last 10 desktop users drop Slackware"

So long, slack. You'll be missed.

Anonymous editorialization (5, Interesting)

DrWhizBang (5333) | more than 9 years ago | (#10488048)

OK, I confess I have seen some bad submissions, but what does HP dropping gnome (not that I have ever seen anything in news about this), Redhat's decision to spin off Fedora, and Patrick's decision that dropline is good enough for him to stop wasting his time with gnome's odd build procedures have in common? Troll usually appear in the comments, not the articles. Although timothy did make an effort to unspin the Slackware news somewhat, it is still crazy that he would post such flamebait.

Just for the record - in case you aren't up on the latest news - Redhat still ships a desktop linux that uses gnome, and the Fedora project is still one of the strongest linux distributions, along with Debian and Suse (Novell), who both still include gnome and have no intentions of dropping it. Additionally, Sun and IBM are still committed to gnome.

Disclaimer: I don't like KDE. I miss my old mac.

Droping users, huh? Rocks! (1)

rolling_bits (754633) | more than 9 years ago | (#10488051)

Sorry, but what crazy distro wants to drop users? :-) Because in the end, that's what's going to happen. Guess what? There are other distros which support GNOME *just fine*. I'm very happy with Ubuntu. So far it's the best Linux system in *years* that I have got. I know it's not the ultimate distro for everybody, though. If you dare, take a look at it. It doesn't bite.

Clash of Philosophy? (1, Redundant)

RAMMS+EIN (578166) | more than 9 years ago | (#10488066)

Perhaps GNOME doesn't fit the Slackware philosophy very well. I means, Slackware is all lean and simple, whereas the same can hardly be said of GNOME.

Re:Clash of Philosophy? (1)

gimpimp (218741) | more than 9 years ago | (#10488081)

Compared to KDE you mean?
Honestly, what a ridiculous statement!

Who's being ridiculous here? (1)

RAMMS+EIN (578166) | more than 9 years ago | (#10488116)

Why would I automatically be comparing GNOME to KDE if I say something about GNOME?

All I was saying is that GNOME seems not to be in line with Slackware's general philosophy. I didn't say anything about KDE, let alone suggest it would do better.

Insert random abuse beyond this point if that's what you were after.

What about Sun? (1)

3770 (560838) | more than 9 years ago | (#10488072)

I don't know if Gnome really is going away. So far this is speculation it seems.

But assuming that is going away, poor Sun. They picked Gnome and hardly even before they get a version out which uses it it is about to die.

But they can't let it die, so now _they_ have to support it with no support from the community.

They could have used a little slack (no pun intended).

QT costs too much. (3, Insightful)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 9 years ago | (#10488075)

The only way for KDE to win is if Novell buys and LGPL's QT. Otherwise it is too expensive for small / midsize shops to buy the licenses need to ship their QT projects.

Try getting your manager to approve such a large purchase these days when GTK is free. It is very difficult.

Re:QT costs too much (bullshit). (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10488099)

So ship a GTK app if you insist on going closed source and non-GPL. It's not like it won't work on systems running KDE.

Have to wonder... (1)

RAMMS+EIN (578166) | more than 9 years ago | (#10488097)

Reading that the major reason for dropping GNOME would be maintenance issues, I have to wonder about Debian.

Debian unstable tends to be close to cutting edge. One of the exceptions is GNOME. There is a Garnome project that helps build GNOME. Could it be that GNOME is too difficult to maintain?

Still miss Gnome 1.4 (3, Interesting)

mercuryresearch (680293) | more than 9 years ago | (#10488098)

I'm pretty much a gnome fan, but in reading the thread linked to in the story, I have to agree: every gnome since 1.4 has just felt "off" to me.

And having dealt with the hell of compiling gnome on slack, I can't blame Pat a bit.

Funny thing is, although I still use gnome, I've got one box running XFCE and it feels much more like gnome 1.4 did -- I'll probably migrate there as long as I can count on a few GTK+ apps (mostly gnumeric, gvim, and I'll toy with giving up evolution if needed.)

KDE has just never done it for me. I can't put a finger on it, it just doesn't feel right or "open" (yes, I see the irony here.)

The main things that originally attracted me to gnome were a few well-done apps and the clean simplicity of 1.4 -- if only the gnomesters would go back to this root.

Whatever the case, I'd like to echo sentiments here (and on the forum linked to in the article) -- it'd be great if Pat would include a well-integrated Dropline package with slackware, and if Dropline would consider a second 'standard' slackware i486 distro, as this can be counted to run on practically all platforms (the i686 won't.)

Patrick's name is Volkerding (2, Informative)

Grayswan (260299) | more than 9 years ago | (#10488110)

not Volderking.

Article (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10488112)

Red Hat has followed by splitting their Desktop Linux out to Fedora

Complete crap. Red Hat has split it's hobbyist / home user Linux out as Fedora. Red Hat are more than willing to take money off businesses to support Linux on the desktop, just like always. Can we try to keep trolls out of the actual articles?
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