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Women in Gaming White Papers

Zonk posted more than 8 years ago | from the not-just-swedish-chix dept.

Games 84

Many thanks to GameJournalism.com for the heads up on two white papers put out last month by the Women in Gaming Special Interest Group. The two papers (both excellent reads) are Chicks with Joysticks: An exploration of women in Gaming, and Why are there so few Women in Games? In a related topic, TerraNova has a piece on the Women 's Game Conference and MMOGs.

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Fascinating (-1, Troll)

Zareste (761710) | more than 8 years ago | (#10578292)

They play video games, AND they have vaginas! If that's not worth starting a special interest group over then I don't know what is.

Sex ratio? (0, Offtopic)

CyberThalamus (822198) | more than 8 years ago | (#10578294)

106 males per 100 females born. That's why there's more boys around than girls.

Re:Sex ratio? (4, Informative)

antifoidulus (807088) | more than 8 years ago | (#10578469)

Actually, in societies that don't participate in aborting female fetuses(China and India namely) females outnumber males, even though your stat is correct? Why? Because at every age males have higher fatality rates than females. Seriously, look at the demographics of the US from the CIA world fact book:
for the US [cia.gov]
Canada [cia.gov]
France [cia.gov]
Japan(though there the ratio roughly stays the same [cia.gov]
For all of these countries, you see that there are a lot more males under 15 than females, but from 15-65 the numbers tend to even out(in the US there are more females than males in this group) But for contrast look at:
China [cia.gov] and
India [cia.gov]
where because of gender selective abortions, there are significantly less females than males in the age 15-65 group. Actually, that is becoming a major concern in those places, as you can imagine what problems a group of males who really need sex can cause.....

Re:Sex ratio? (3, Funny)

TVC15 (518429) | more than 8 years ago | (#10579084)

> as you can imagine what problems a group of males who really need sex can cause.....

more duplicate posts and bad moderating on slashdot?

Re:Sex ratio? (1)

Geoffreyerffoeg (729040) | more than 8 years ago | (#10580698)

problems a group of males who really need sex can cause.....

Slashdot?

In all seriousness, it'll cause a considerable drop in population growth, because there will be an imbalance of wombs available to bear the generation after this. And less population is what China and India really need now.

Re:Sex ratio? (2, Informative)

antifoidulus (807088) | more than 9 years ago | (#10582090)

Actually, China's population is expected to crest at about 1.5 billion and then start to drop considerably. China is in a very similiar position as the US with a big baby boom bubble, and low birth rates thereafter, only their boom occured in the 70s instead of the 50's. India however is expected to be the most populous nation on the planet in 20 years or so with about 2 billion people. I think the main reason that India is the place for outsourcing(skilled labor) whereas China is the place for manufacturing(generally unskilled) is because the population of India was much younger when India opened up than the population of China was when it opened up......

Re:Sex ratio? (1)

NSash (711724) | more than 9 years ago | (#10582902)

Actually, that is becoming a major concern in those places, as you can imagine what problems a group of males who really need sex can cause...

Gay orgies?

Ladies, here's a game for you. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#10578341)

It's called - go make my dinner, iron my clothes, wash my clothes and sweep the floor. I don't bust my ass 16 hours a day to pay your way through life so you can sit around and watch television all day and party with your gal pals all night.

Put THE SIMS ONLINE down and go find the vacuum.

Sounds Pr0nish... (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#10578470)

Like, "White Chicks, Black Joysticks"

Meh.

Re:Sounds Pr0nish... (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 9 years ago | (#10589739)

I was thinking something more like you'd have seen in Clerks. Chicks with Joysticks sounds like some total tranny or hermaphrodite porn.

Ob Vonnegut quotation (3, Funny)

nekoniku (183821) | more than 8 years ago | (#10578505)

"Why should I bother with made-up games when there are so many real ones going on?" (Cat's Cradle)

So... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#10578551)

What about these women? Hmm? Does it give me faster internet access? Can it be used to give me a better PC? Does it make me money? No?

Then why should I give a damn?

Shoryukens and wedding bells (3, Funny)

evilmousse (798341) | more than 8 years ago | (#10578552)


In related news, my 12-year-old offer to marry
the first woman to regularly defeat me at
StreetFighter regardless of age, race, or looks,
goes entirely unanswered.

I think I was born 5 years or so too late;
I've seen a few teenage girls who contend
in Soul Calibur...

I gotta move to California where they have more asians...

-evilme

Re:Shoryukens and wedding bells (1)

FlopEJoe (784551) | more than 8 years ago | (#10579095)

Wish I was young enough to marry one of the Swedish Girls of Gaming: http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/fun.games/10/18/games .swedishgirls.ap/index.html [cnn.com]

Re:Shoryukens and wedding bells (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#10579169)

You're probably twelve years old, then. Or maybe you just haven't left your basement in a couple decades.

As it is with most fugly girls, that photo of the "swedish gamer girl" has her tilting her head down at an odd angle, weird makeup, things over her eyes and is far away from the camera.

Aside from the fact that she has almsot no hips and has the body of a highschool boy, you can't tell anything else. It's just a more professional version of "ugly chick tries to look hot by taking a funky webcam shot and putting it online".

It's amazing how hot an ugly girl can come across in the right angle, with the right light and with the right makeup and things covering up the right spots.

Re:Shoryukens and wedding bells (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#10579226)

Here's the skank's webpage.

http://seules.dk/v1/aurora.htm [seules.dk]

And here is a BBC article with a better picture of the chicks. Look at the photo at the bottom of the article. You'll notice that ALL of them - even that supposed hottie, either have fugly faces, are fat or just plain freaky looking (like the fake-tan frankenstein nearest in that photo, the fugly looking blondes or the fat asian girl on the left).

No thanks. You can have them all. I'd prefer hot chicks.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3496963.stm [bbc.co.uk]

Re:Shoryukens and wedding bells (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10586093)

You're funny. You may "prefer hot chicks", but do you actually think that with an attitude like that they'll have any interest in you? You may be trolling, but your insecurities and personal problems are pretty evident.

Re:Shoryukens and wedding bells (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#10579333)

The dark haired girl with the red lips is doable, but calling these girls "hot" is kind of a stretch. A big fugly, if you ask me. So they have breasts and aren't fat. That doesn't makeup for having a freakish face or looking like you tripped and fell head-first on a pile of bricks.

The dark haired girl gets a 7/10 but the rest get a 6/10.

http://www.nvidia.co.uk/page/eswc_13.html [nvidia.co.uk]

Re:Shoryukens and wedding bells (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#10579376)

The link in the above post is to an nvidia article about these chicks with a large group photo that shows all the chicks very clearly.

Re:Shoryukens and wedding bells (apology) (3, Interesting)

evilmousse (798341) | more than 8 years ago | (#10579530)


Let me apologize to any woman reading for all
the comments in this thread that indicate women
gamers are unwelcome if less than attractive. ..As if every single social interation between
the sexes need be sexual. We need you as gamers
if only to dilute this kind of idiocy among us.

-g

Re:Shoryukens and wedding bells (apology) (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#10579575)

Shut up, pussy.

I bet you're the "sensitive male friend" that always takes girls to dinner and listens to them talk about their boyfriends but never gets any action from them.

Grow a pair, you fucking twat.

Re:Shoryukens and wedding bells (apology) (2, Funny)

evilmousse (798341) | more than 8 years ago | (#10579781)


you hit the nail on the head. i am.

and you're the resentful fugly goth
(you're no beefcake, this is slashdot)
who gets neither sexual NOR social attention.

nice to meet you.

Re:Shoryukens and wedding bells (apology) (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#10581374)

You don't have a clue what I am or what I get. And I could hardly be resentful. I avoid the people I described above and my world is richer for it. And who cares if you're goth? So you wear tight black clothes and that matters how in this discussion?

Re:Shoryukens and wedding bells (apology) (1)

evilmousse (798341) | more than 9 years ago | (#10582023)


>And who cares if you're goth? So you wear tight
>black clothes and that matters how in this >discussion?

aaAHahahaHaHAhaahhaahaha

looks like -I- hit the nail on the head too,
anonymous coward ^_^;;;;

YOUR FORMATTING SUCKS, STOP IT (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10587335)

you type like a
total fucking moron
please stop with
the non sensical spacing
thank you very much
you nutless wonder

also note
your refusal to use caps
which i am mocking in this post
is a femine typing trait


i believe you are lacking testosterone
talk to your doctor

Re:Shoryukens and wedding bells (apology) (1)

Guppy06 (410832) | more than 8 years ago | (#10580224)

All the complaints I've seen about their looks can be summed up in just two words: sour grapes. That, or their only exposure to women has been through their pr0n collection.

Re:Shoryukens and wedding bells (1)

Guppy06 (410832) | more than 8 years ago | (#10580146)

"the first woman to regularly defeat me at
StreetFighter regardless of age, race, or looks,
goes entirely unanswered.

I think I was born 5 years or so too late;"


Well, considering that you didn't put a "II" after "Street Fighter," I think 5 years is a little optimistic...

Re:Shoryukens and wedding bells (1)

evilmousse (798341) | more than 8 years ago | (#10580168)


I didn't put a "I" either.

any version'll do.

offer's still open ladies. ^_-

Re:Shoryukens and wedding bells (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10581609)

I can't speak for StreetFighter, but I know a girl in Lake Oswego that could probably hand you your ass in a few rounds of Counter Strike. Some guys at the UofO and I used to run a popular CS server (before I stopped playing most video games) and this girl named 'Val' was always on. She was probably around 18 at the time and she learned quickly. Oh, I actually knew another girl too on the same server from the same area, now that I think about it. She was pretty good, too.

Other than those two, the only females I've known who did much gaming played things like Sims, EverQuest and Ultima Online. There's clearly a distinction between the interests of both sexes, for the most part. Generally, it seems that females tend to avoid hard-core puzzle, strategy and action games. Even in MMORPGs, the 'action' and the 'fighting' tends to be a secondary or tertiary requisit for them. That's a broad description based on the women I've been around and people I've talked to, but it probably isn't too far off the mark, in general.

I'm ashamed to admit it, but I played The Sims Online for about a week. It wasn't for me. Boring and pointless. I gave it a chance, but it fell short (just like a lot of more male-oriented games did, like Anarchy Online, Shadowbane, ATITD, Rubies of Eventide...) The one thing that did stand out about The Sims Online, however, was the social interaction among players. Especially females. Within a few minutes of entering the game, I was invited to join a group of women who showed me the ropes, helped me out, gave me tips and eventually invited me to join their "house" (or whatever you call it in the game). The game play was painfully dull to me, but the community was unique. In most games, you won't see that kind of treatment. With most MMORPGs or FPS games, you join a server, create a character, figure out what the hell you are doing and start hacking stuff to bits all the while dodging the offcolor racist, homophobic and sexist remarks of pre-pubescent boys.

I wouldn't try to read some social theory or explanation into why there aren't many female gamers and why they're attracted to certain areas. Men and women are very different creatures and some things come more natural and are more appealing to one sex over the other (with interesting exceptions). The important thing is to welcome those people who do cross the boundaries and find enjoyment in it.

What bothers me more is the reaction of males any time someone with a female voice is playing (using the mic) or even just a female name logs into a server. You have three typical responses, such as those below:

The person who doubts that it's a female and makes a point of doubting it.

The person who goes out of their way to be a jerk to the female just to be a jerk.

The person who can't stop talking about the girl and sucks up to her and flirts with her and can't shut up about how hot he thinks it is that a person with breasts is playing his favorite game.

It would be nice if a female could join a server and we could all continue to play as normal without regressing into a pack of slobbering penises.

I also have a sister who has always played videogames. Not addictively like myself, my brother or any other male I know, but quite a bit nevertheless. She doesn't play online games, but has played almost everythign else on PS2/X-Box that she's come across. The frustrating thing is that it comes so natural to her. She's almost 20 now and as long as I can remember, she could walk into a room while my younger brother and I are playing and pick up a controller... and breeze right through things that we'd spent hours trying to beat. We'd take days or weeks to beat a game and she could do it in a couple sittings. ARGH! She's a bit of a tom-boy, but not much. She's just very *very* adept at the videogame thing, I guess.

There's another aspect to consider, too. Many of us would like to see gaming become a more widely accepted "sport" (to use the word quite loosely) and the best way to do this is going to be by accepting anyone and everyone as a participant. Unlike many sports, you don't have to be the fastest 300lb 6'4" male to be a potentially lethal Counter Strike player. Race, nationality, religion, gender, sexuality and size should be irrelevant.

Even today, people sneer at the WNBA, make "knowing" comments about female golfers being lesbians and often only watch female volleyball to see toned girls in tight outfits. In the online gaming world, there doesn't have to be any stigma attached to anyone for any reason. All that matters is your frag count. Period.

The CPL and other "leagues" could have a major breakout with online gaming (though it seems to be much more difficult to gain popularity on this side of the globe) if only they balance the intensity and excitement of the whole "cyber gaming" element with a welcoming atmosphere to any and all competitors. Considering that many of the males in online gaming have probably been, to some degree, outcasts in their own right in their own corners of the world, they should be more understanding and open to the inclusion and participation of females in the digital world.

By the way, a friend of mine just bought herself a pink GBA. She already had a GBA, but she wanted a pink one, too. She claims to kick every boy's ass at almost every game she plays. Especially Pokemon. She has a level 99 something or other that she named Bubbles. Specifically named because, as she put it "Once you get your ass kicked by someone named 'Bubbles', you don't get your dignity back".

Re:Shoryukens and wedding bells (3, Interesting)

Seumas (6865) | more than 9 years ago | (#10581642)

Meh. I posted this anonymously on accident, the first time. That'll teach me to post from someone else's computer. :(

======

I can't speak for StreetFighter, but I know a girl in Lake Oswego that could probably hand you your ass in a few rounds of Counter Strike. Some guys at the UofO and I used to run a popular CS server (before I stopped playing most video games) and this girl named 'Val' was always on. She was probably around 18 at the time and she learned quickly. Oh, I actually knew another girl too on the same server from the same area, now that I think about it. She was pretty good, too.

Other than those two, the only females I've known who did much gaming played things like Sims, EverQuest and Ultima Online. There's clearly a distinction between the interests of both sexes, for the most part. Generally, it seems that females tend to avoid hard-core puzzle, strategy and action games. Even in MMORPGs, the 'action' and the 'fighting' tends to be a secondary or tertiary requisit for them. That's a broad description based on the women I've been around and people I've talked to, but it probably isn't too far off the mark, in general.

I'm ashamed to admit it, but I played The Sims Online for about a week. It wasn't for me. Boring and pointless. I gave it a chance, but it fell short (just like a lot of more male-oriented games did, like Anarchy Online, Shadowbane, ATITD, Rubies of Eventide...) The one thing that did stand out about The Sims Online, however, was the social interaction among players. Especially females. Within a few minutes of entering the game, I was invited to join a group of women who showed me the ropes, helped me out, gave me tips and eventually invited me to join their "house" (or whatever you call it in the game). The game play was painfully dull to me, but the community was unique. In most games, you won't see that kind of treatment. With most MMORPGs or FPS games, you join a server, create a character, figure out what the hell you are doing and start hacking stuff to bits all the while dodging the offcolor racist, homophobic and sexist remarks of pre-pubescent boys.

I wouldn't try to read some social theory or explanation into why there aren't many female gamers and why they're attracted to certain areas. Men and women are very different creatures and some things come more natural and are more appealing to one sex over the other (with interesting exceptions). The important thing is to welcome those people who do cross the boundaries and find enjoyment in it.

What bothers me more is the reaction of males any time someone with a female voice is playing (using the mic) or even just a female name logs into a server. You have three typical responses, such as those below:

The person who doubts that it's a female and makes a point of doubting it.

The person who goes out of their way to be a jerk to the female just to be a jerk.

The person who can't stop talking about the girl and sucks up to her and flirts with her and can't shut up about how hot he thinks it is that a person with breasts is playing his favorite game.

It would be nice if a female could join a server and we could all continue to play as normal without regressing into a pack of slobbering penises.

I also have a sister who has always played videogames. Not addictively like myself, my brother or any other male I know, but quite a bit nevertheless. She doesn't play online games, but has played almost everythign else on PS2/X-Box that she's come across. The frustrating thing is that it comes so natural to her. She's almost 20 now and as long as I can remember, she could walk into a room while my younger brother and I are playing and pick up a controller... and breeze right through things that we'd spent hours trying to beat. We'd take days or weeks to beat a game and she could do it in a couple sittings. ARGH! She's a bit of a tom-boy, but not much. She's just very *very* adept at the videogame thing, I guess.

There's another aspect to consider, too. Many of us would like to see gaming become a more widely accepted "sport" (to use the word quite loosely) and the best way to do this is going to be by accepting anyone and everyone as a participant. Unlike many sports, you don't have to be the fastest 300lb 6'4" male to be a potentially lethal Counter Strike player. Race, nationality, religion, gender, sexuality and size should be irrelevant.

Even today, people sneer at the WNBA, make "knowing" comments about female golfers being lesbians and often only watch female volleyball to see toned girls in tight outfits. In the online gaming world, there doesn't have to be any stigma attached to anyone for any reason. All that matters is your frag count. Period.

The CPL and other "leagues" could have a major breakout with online gaming (though it seems to be much more difficult to gain popularity on this side of the globe) if only they balance the intensity and excitement of the whole "cyber gaming" element with a welcoming atmosphere to any and all competitors. Considering that many of the males in online gaming have probably been, to some degree, outcasts in their own right in their own corners of the world, they should be more understanding and open to the inclusion and participation of females in the digital world.

By the way, a friend of mine just bought herself a pink GBA. She already had a GBA, but she wanted a pink one, too. She claims to kick every boy's ass at almost every game she plays. Especially Pokemon. She has a level 99 something or other that she named Bubbles. Specifically named because, as she put it "Once you get your ass kicked by someone named 'Bubbles', you don't get your dignity back".

Re:Shoryukens and wedding bells (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10586436)

I bet my slobbering penis could beat up your slobbering penis :)

Re:Shoryukens and wedding bells (1)

JavaLord (680960) | more than 9 years ago | (#10586495)

I wouldn't try to read some social theory or explanation into why there aren't many female gamers and why they're attracted to certain areas.

I would, and it's a simple one. Women who are about 21 and over now (maybe 25) have always attached a social stigma to those that play with video games/use computers. They lived in a time where there wasn't a computer/video game console in almost every home, and a computer on every workdesk in addition to the internet everywhere. The geek stigma to games and computers that existed in the 70's and 80's is dying. On the rare occasions that I go to the arcade nowadys I see many more girls there than before.

The person who doubts that it's a female and makes a point of doubting it.

Do you think they are wrong to doubt this? The demographics surely state in most online games that it is more likely a male than a female, and if you've been on the net for any amout of time, I'm sure you have run into the "I'm not a teenage girl but I play one on the internet" routine.

The person who goes out of their way to be a jerk to the female just to be a jerk.

I know you mention this earlier, but in every online game there are always griefers. They will tease you for being black, white, hispanic, American, not American, sounding young, sounding old, not having any "skills" at said game, having too much skills at said game, etc, etc. Why should their be a vagina exception where people are not made fun of for their gender too? This isn't sexism, this is just the nature of people when they don't feel human empathy for someone else.

The person who can't stop talking about the girl and sucks up to her and flirts with her and can't shut up about how hot he thinks it is that a person with breasts is playing his favorite game.

I have to agree, I find this annoying also. The person just usually looks desprate. I've seen a lot of girls that like the attention though. It's really not to different to the guy who comes in from some top ranked CPL clan and some wanna be just hangs from his dick all round kissing up to him while he eats it all up. There are attention whores and suck ups everywhere in online gaming, and they aren't all based around a female.

It would be nice if a female could join a server and we could all continue to play as normal without regressing into a pack of slobbering penises.

Sure, take a gender neutral name and you would probably better off, or just ignore griefers like everyone else ignores them instead of turning a FPS into "deathmatches of our lives" with the drama of sexism accusations.

She claims to kick every boy's ass at almost every game she plays. Especially Pokemon. She has a level 99 something or other that she named Bubbles. Specifically named because, as she put it "Once you get your ass kicked by someone named 'Bubbles', you don't get your dignity back".

This is sexism as much as when a man says "No women can ever beat me at a video game". There is little difference.

Women gamers (3, Informative)

Deorus (811828) | more than 8 years ago | (#10578579)

They may be less than men, but they exist [womengamers.com] and form communities.

Re:Women gamers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10584241)

And in Sweden the look hot, yay !

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/fun.games/10/18/gam es .swedishgirls.ap/

Re:Women gamers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10587677)

... really *bitchy* communities, that don't want to support any women who have slightly different tastes than they do.

Or so I've found, when running around as a woman who actually MAKES games, and finding no one who will give me any airspace on their "gamer grrrrrl" webpages...

Is it just me? (1)

miyako (632510) | more than 8 years ago | (#10578761)

When I look at a stack of games that I have right next to me I see this:
  • Resident Evil Code Veronica X: has a female protaganist for the first half of the game.
  • Resident Evil Zero: Once again, one of the main characters is female.
  • Resident Evil: Again, a female protagonsit.
  • Super Mario Sunshine: ok, mario save the princess, no female protagonist
  • Metal Gear Solid The Twin Snakes: No Female Protagonist.
  • Skies of Arcadia Legends. Two of the main characters are female.
  • Paper Mario 2. Once again, two of the characters in this game are female.
  • THUG/THUG2. Both games feature a created skater who can be male or female.
  • Star Ocean 3. Many female main characters in this game.
I could keep going, but really it seems to me that the male-centric problem in video games isn't as bad as it used to be. I think though it really depends on the games you look at. First and Third person shoot-em-up games tend to have male characters exclusively, but those games tend to appeal mainly to male audiences. Fighting games, RPGs, Adventure games, etc. appeal to a broader audience and seem to me to be a bit more balance of male/female ratios.

Re:Is it just me? (2, Interesting)

xenocide2 (231786) | more than 8 years ago | (#10578948)

Maybe the male centric problem runs deeper than what gender the characters around you, or even the character you control, is. Saving the world, destroying every last zombie, etc seems like a macho thing to do. In today's world of Equal Opportunity, it can be lost on us that women want to be women as much as men want to be men.

Resident Evil uses female characters to emphasize how weak you are, to highten the fright. Imagine our protagonist from Metal Gear in this zombie game. All of a sudden it goes from scary to moderately funny.

If you wanted to point to a game thats sliding over toward women, look no further than Final Fantasy. The series has slowly moved from Saving the Princess and the World by Restoring the Crystal's Light to androgynous characters fighting a war for feeling, and playing dressup. You can say what you want about condesending stereotypes, but its not like placing a woman in place of rambo dissovles the masculine angle. It takes a different kind of game to directly appeal to girls and women.

Re:Is it just me? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#10579067)

Basically, women want to play stupid barbie fashion video games and men want to play manly games. Big deal. What's wrong with that?

Re:Is it just me? (1)

miyako (632510) | more than 8 years ago | (#10579420)

I never really looked at the Resident Evil games that way. I think you might have been right for the first and second RE games, but in the later games, the female characters are very strong. Also, in the original game, it was just as scary playing as Chris Redfield as it was to play as Jill Valentine.
I think it depends a lot on how you view women. If you tend to view women as weak, the game game is scary because you see your character as weak. If, on the other hand, you see women as strong and equally capable, then that doesn't play as big of a part in the game.
I agree with your point on the Final Fantasy games, though I think it really just mirrors what I said about all RPGs in general, that they tend to be less male-centric.

Re:Is it just me? (1)

bigman2003 (671309) | more than 8 years ago | (#10579322)

A lot of First/Third person games have a good number of female characters.

  • Unreal Tournament has always had a good number of women. (DIE BITCH!)
  • No One Lives Forever - Female (HOT!) protagonist
  • Psi-Ops, you spend most of the game following a woman.
  • Deus Ex: Invisible War - choice of male or female


There are a lot more- don't just assume that all FPSs have male characters exclusively. Because that would be wrong.

Next Muthafuckers gonna get my metal.

Re:Is it just me? (1)

miyako (632510) | more than 8 years ago | (#10579489)

hmm, ok. I don't really play First/Third person shooters very much, not my type of game. I was just thinking of Half Life, Doom, Max Payne, and the GTA series, as those are the "big" games of the genres that I've seen.
The point I was trying to make though (as one of the other people who responded to my post pointed out) is that putting females in a game that will appear to a primarily male audence doesn't really solve any problems, and in a a few of the cases that I've seen, the women are often very exaggerated sex symbols (I'm not saying that there is anything inherently wrong with this, just pointing it out). I think the idea is to create games that appeal more to female gamers, that feature female protagonists.

Existence of female chars does not disprove bias (1)

AHumbleOpinion (546848) | more than 9 years ago | (#10582576)

The existence of female characters does not really disprove a male bias. For example how are females presented, realistically or anatomically exaggerated to get a male's attention? FWIW, I'm not overly concerned, the market will eventually get things right, if it has not done so already. The simple truth is that corporation would like to take money from females.

Re:Is it just me? (1)

Moonlapse (802617) | more than 9 years ago | (#10587833)

You forgot Final Fantasy X-2 where every playable character is a female.

Re:Is it just me? (1)

Minna Kirai (624281) | more than 9 years ago | (#10596277)

Resident Evil Zero: Once again, one of the main characters is female.

Notice that the female character is more powerful (bigger inventory) and luckier (fewer random disasters block her path), meaning she's EASIER to play... which is a sexist way of saying that boys are tougher than girls.

This was prevalent in Japanese games... I remember seeing a lot of cartridges for the original Nintendo where you choose "Otoko/Onna" (male/female) at startup, even though it didn't have alternate player graphics for the different genders! It only asked as a way to set the difficulty level.

Why fewer women gamers? (3, Interesting)

Henry V .009 (518000) | more than 8 years ago | (#10578978)

Why are there fewer women in sports of all kinds? Why are there fewer women in the hard sciences? Why are there fewer women in prisions?

Maybe we're kind of different.

Re:Why fewer women gamers? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#10579472)

Quite simply, because women have choices.

Men have to become educated, spend their lives working in a career and make money. We usually have to provide for ourselves, a woman and any children we have. Even if a woman works, we usually have to make up the difference between her low paying career and our own. The idea that "women are equal" is nice, but if that's so - why can't they truly pay 50% of everything in a household?

Women, on the other hand, can become educated. They can go to college to build a career. Or they can go to college to waste a little time, party and find an educated husband to latch on to. Or they can, if they're good looking, go out and party (which they usually do - including traveling which is why they're always broke) and find an older man who IS working and DID educate himself and DOES spend his life working hard who will support her and any children they have together. Or they can become educated and go into a career and then dump that career after a few years and decide to stay at home and have children. Or they can do a job half assed and have children and be a half-assed parent. Or they can focus on either entirely.

You could likewise be asking "why aren't there more men being wild and partying through their teens and twenties and hooking up with older rich chicks and spending their lives at home taking care of children or watching soap operas"? Simple, most women don't get into hard sciences, becuase women dont' HAVE to work. They only have to work enough to suppor themselves between leaving their childhood home and finding a man to take care of them for the rest of their lives.

So you females can whine and bitch about this, but you're the ones who have ALL the choices. Including whether or not to have or keep children. Whether or not to divorce us and take half of our money and belongings, even though you didn't do one bit of work for it and sit on your ass.

I'm sure I'll be labeled as flamebait or troll for all this, because it's not politically correct and people would rather spout rhetorical bullshit about "there's nothing a man can do that a woman can't do just as well" and "women work just as hard" and all this other crap. But someone has to say this shit and hopefully a few people will realize it for the truth it is and stop buying into this garbage. Especially you males you ALLOW the women in your life to do this. Think with your head and not your cock - stop supporting women just becuase they're putting out for you. A woman should work just as hard in life and for a living as you have to. You have to spend your entire life working hard, until you die - and THEY do not have to. So who's getting fucked here? THink about it, boys.

Re:Why fewer women gamers? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10582776)

Wow. It must suck to be you...

Re:Why fewer women gamers? (1)

sqrt(2) (786011) | more than 9 years ago | (#10583586)

Bravo, it's a shame you were modded down, you're speaking the truth.

If I had mod points (damn, used them yesterday) you would be modded insightful. It's too bad so many people are blinded by their political correctness to see the truth.

Slashdot:Where the Truth Comes to Die (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10586582)

I'm sure I'll be labeled as flamebait or troll for all this, because it's not politically correct and people would rather spout rhetorical bullshit

Message from Mods: Alas, this is slashdot and you are not conforming with the groupthing. We don't come here to exchange opinions, only to re-enforce our own.

Do you have a blog anywhere? That was a pretty good commentary.

Re:Why fewer women gamers? (1)

ndogg (158021) | more than 8 years ago | (#10580708)

Which is why it's a good thing to research. Perhaps games in general just don't appeal to most women, or perhaps we need to explore different types of games that cater more specifically to women.

Re:Why fewer women gamers? (1)

rpillala (583965) | more than 9 years ago | (#10586522)

Yesterday I was "teaching" Discrete Mathematics and one of the students in that class has an older brother who also took the class with me a few years ago. She's doing much better in the class than he did. She mentioned in passing that her brother was better at math than she was, because you know, he's a guy. This is so far from the truth that I had to wonder where she could have gotten the idea. Maybe girls get these ideas from someplace. I admit that schools have something to do with it too.

Re:Why fewer women gamers? (1)

Henry V .009 (518000) | more than 9 years ago | (#10587193)

Some of the best mathematics students I know are women. Asian women mostly, but that's not really the point.

For sheer ability, it's mainly the guys who win out. For preparedness and dedication, it's the women by a long shot -- and that makes quite a difference. They seem to have better memories as well, though they are more lecture learners than book learners. Still, it's the guys who seem to be better at thinking on their feet and actually applying what they know in new situations.

For all that, I think that the biggest difference is that women find mathematics less fulfilling than men do. That is the root of the major differences, I think. And I remain to be convinced that that is something that is taught or even could be taught.

Full size photo of the entire team. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#10579293)

I guess a couple are doable, but calling these girls "hot" is kind of a stretch. A big fugly, if you ask me. So they have breasts and aren't fat. That doesn't makeup for having a freakish face or looking like you triped and fell head-first on a pile of bricks.

Great articles! (5, Interesting)

kria (126207) | more than 8 years ago | (#10579312)

While I've never been a computer game programmer, I'm a programmer and a table-top and MMORPG player, and I have to say that this is a very insightful article.

I'm very happy that the place I work seems to have no problems hiring female programmers... but I'm still one of two female programmers on my approx 20 person team. Because there aren't that many women out there, because so many women were discouraged from technical fields for so long.

I have felt the atmosphere that discourages women frequently in gamer circles, when I'm around gamers I don't know - guys who tend to be crude, rude, and are there just to hack n'slash. My gaming circle is playing a campaign that features a lot more political intrigue, as well as has major male and female npcs who are more than window dressing. My group is nearly half and half on gender. It's wonderful.

Anyway, the more we make the reasons known, the less we'll have people claiming it's all just "well, women don't want to do that" or "men and women are wired differently, that's all".

Re:Great articles! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#10579493)

because so many women were discouraged from technical fields for so long.

Bullshit. Because so many women don't enter the workforce or just get a minimal job/education to bumble through life while searching for a hard working educated man to take care of them.

Complain all you want, but you know that's fucking true.

Re:Great articles! (1)

evilmousse (798341) | more than 8 years ago | (#10579685)


(mods, this guy is a troll)

That vague social trend of female dependency
is not mutually exclusive to an unwelcome techie
environment.

Now that you've vented, reread this
woman's intelligent post with an open mind.
The comments on this article only serve
to back-up her points.

-evilme

Re:Great articles! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#10581329)

Interesting how you label things you disagree with as "trolls". Women just dont' want to know how men think and men are afraid to let women know how they really think. So a bit of social rehabilition is forced on people to conform to these silly and unhealthy ideals.

You and I both know what the score is, but it's easier to just say "women aren't like that at all! You're a troll for suggesting otherwise!". Fucking sycophants.

Re:Great articles! (1)

evilmousse (798341) | more than 9 years ago | (#10582093)


wrong, i didn't say i disagreed with it.
i said it's not relevant--it doesn't apply,
and implied that it's inflamatory, and that
you're bringing your own hatred to a subject
that doesn't need it.

Re:Great articles! (1)

kria (126207) | more than 9 years ago | (#10586055)

(This is in response to someone modded -1 troll, in case you're trying to figure out what the heck I'm saying)

I find your comments about women "bumbl[ing] through life searching for a hard working educated man to take care of them" highly amusing. I'm a successful programmer with a BS in computer science from one of the top three private undergrad tech colleges and currently I'm putting my husband, who got laid off, through getting his MBA because he got tired of tech stuff. Wow, I have to ditch him so I can find someone that'll let me stay home and do laundry or something...

One quick nitpick about the first article... (3, Insightful)

Morrisguy (731956) | more than 8 years ago | (#10579395)

...where the author credits Roberta Williams as creating the first female protagonist in a video game in 1987.

Wasn't the first lead lady in a video game Ms. Pacman? [klov.com] in 1981?

Re:One quick nitpick about the first article... (2, Insightful)

adagioforstrings (192285) | more than 9 years ago | (#10582071)

Ah, if you like to describe a yellow circle with a hair(?) bow and lipstick as a "female protagonist." I think Rosella fits the title a bit better.

Why are there fewer women? (3, Insightful)

valkenar (307241) | more than 8 years ago | (#10579488)

Look at the comments to this article. Half are openly misogynistic (although I'm sure someone will try to argue that attempts at humor excuses all) others focus on whethere females gamers are hawt enough.

Maybe this kind of thing wouldn't bother you, but it's the kind of thing you hear complaints about from women in the geek scene. If you care to listen.

Re:Why are there fewer women? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#10579607)

Have you ever heard a group of women out together without men? You think they talk any differently? They're all gossip and egging each other on to cheat and talking about the affairs they're having behind their spouse's backs. They talk about EVERYTHING superficially, including the size of a guy's cock and every little secret he has.

Women just avoid doing it around men. So don't act like they're so high and mighty. And just because we're not all going around drooling with stiff cocks in our pants, covered by our trapper keepers and pretending to be "mr sensitive modern male" around them in some stupid belief that if we're sensitive and understanding enough we'll get laid (rather than being a jerk and having some confidence and a set of balls and absolutely getting laid).

Re:Why are there fewer women? (1)

valkenar (307241) | more than 8 years ago | (#10579786)

Women just avoid doing it around men

I believe the word for this is "tact." It's a good thing when it comes to interacting with others.

I didn't say anything about women being better human beings. But it's much better to be offensive in private with your friends than in public situations.

Re:Why are there fewer women? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#10581354)

That isn't quite right.

Tact would be if they said the same things, but in a different way. Deciet is being offensive privately and smiling and nodding and playing a different tune entirely, publically.

Re:Why are there fewer women? (1)

valkenar (307241) | more than 9 years ago | (#10586679)

Tact:

"Acute sensitivity to what is proper and appropriate in dealing with others, including the ability to speak or act without offending."

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=tact

Re:Why are there fewer women? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10591725)

I didn't say anything about women being better human beings. But it's much better to be offensive in private with your friends than in public situations.

No, that is cowardice or as my friends in the hood would call it "Being a bitch". Hey, I wonder where that saying came about? Maybe they aren't as politically correct as you guilt ridden white males.

Re:Why are there fewer women? (1)

Elkboy (770849) | more than 9 years ago | (#10584018)

It's really no worse than belonging to a minority part of any group, in my experience - especially with a group as historically homgenous as gaming. It's always tough to break new ground into such territory. With that said, I do think the sexism and machoism in gaming is sad and embarassing, but the only way of changing that is to keep diversifying gaming society until your minority of choice is seen as normal.

I don't know if the recently famous female Swedish CS team [cnn.com] do us all a disservice by being geeky sex kittens or not. I guess they're using the system as much as it uses them...

Women are more social I would think... (2, Interesting)

blahplusplus (757119) | more than 8 years ago | (#10579525)

In my opinion women are more social then guys are. That and video games are mostly about action, look at the list of games and you see that at least 80-90% of them are action oriented games. I hate to be stereotypical but I think women crave socializing more then they do staring for hours in front of a TV or a computer. I'd think most women gamers know when to give games a rest where guys take their gaming more seriously and spend more time doing it.

I'll use my sister as an example, it takes her *forever* to finish an RPG. While it takes my brother and I less then a few days of hardcore playing on weekends and whatnot. My sister can't stand being alone or away from people, even just to have you in the same room as her and not even talking to her, she has this insane craving to be around people. Maybe it's that guys desire less social interaction then women? I think you also have to think about responsibilities and the real working world too.

But when I was in highschool almost no girls found video games terribly interesting to the point where it became their main hobby. They could play it on and off for a few hours with their boyfriends or whatnot but in my experience they would rather be outside or inside (parties, etc) doing something other then videogaming.

Re:Women are more social I would think... (1)

Scorchio (177053) | more than 8 years ago | (#10580764)

I'd agree with this, but what do I know, I'm a bloke.

The papers pick up on how women are more drawn to games requiring more social aspects, eg. MMOGs or The Sims, or pick-up-and-play games like Bejewelled that don't require investing hours and hours of your time.

The second paper refers to the IGDA Quality of Life white paper, which addresses the subject of excessive working hours, which has historically plagued the industry. This is an important point. These long hours do nothing for your social life, so if it's something that's important to you, the horror stories of frequent 70+ hour weeks are going to make you think twice.

Thankfully, things are starting to improve. Most successful companies are investing more time and effort in the design and planning stages of a project, refining the schedule and limiting the amount of slippage and crunch time. But, there is still a long way to go. I had the displeasure of working for an inept senior manager who basically told us all to suck it up and that "overtime was what you signed up for". More people working more hours was the solution to everything, with little apparent concern as to why the project was late and how to fix the problems next time around. I believe his latest venture has run into legal difficulties, so I guess that's karma for you.

Anyway, I digress. When the industry sorts out these issues, a career in games development will be more appealing all round - not just to women, but anyone with family, friends or interests outside of their day job.

Female Gamers Do Get Attention (5, Insightful)

EngineeringMarvel (783720) | more than 8 years ago | (#10579579)

I'm the main Battlefield editor over at AmpedNews [ampednews.com] so I keep up with gaming trends and personal since I cover the main online gaming leagues. One thing I have noticed about the female gamers is the attention they get from others playing in the online leagues. One in particular, who is on my Amped staff, is constantly getting attention from the male gamers.

It takes a certain type of girl to deal with the type of stuff that she handles all the time. She cannot get onto IRC without some male gamer wanting to bother her. I'm sure there are other gamers that I have played with regularly that are female, but choose not to say it. Mainly to avoid all the harrassement from the other online gamers. My point is, not only are girls different, but they have to be ready to put up with a community that is mostly made up of horny male teenagers.

Re:Female Gamers Do Get Attention (2, Insightful)

Elkboy (770849) | more than 9 years ago | (#10584063)

I don't agree with "girls are different". Males aren't all about violence and sex, and girls aren't all about pink, fluffly emotional stuff. These differences are partly forced on us by society at large, but also a gaming industry that is only beginning to realize that the differences, to the extent that there really are any, are much more subtle than that. From what I've seen, not even the old truth that males are into goal-oriented gaming and females are into social gaming are more than tendencies.

BTW, all teenagers are horny. It's just more obvious in a male-dominated subculture with ample access to sexualized images of women. These images have begun to diversify lately, but I think it's an intrinsic part of escapism such as gaming. What do you think all the female players of Final Fantasy games think of when they look at those scantily clad pretty boys wielding big swords?

Zonk!! Please Read!! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#10581049)

Hi Zonk!

Congratulations on your new role as a Slashdot Editor! I can imagine you're pretty excited and anxious to do a great a job. In particular, it's a pretty impressive that you now have control over items that appear on the Slashdot homepage! With the right judgment, you're bound to help make the Slashdot community a better place.

As part of that, it's important to think about how your role has changed. No longer is it your role to submit articles for the homepage, but rather to (hopefully) verify and approve them.

That is, you shouldn't be writing and approving your own stories. (Yes, Rob does it. But Rob is The Man. He created Slashdot. Normal rules don't apply to him.)

Frankly, when others do it, it's kinda whore-ish. It'll lead to you being speculated as a pimp for pet interests, pitching commerical interests, etc. Of course, you can continue to it, but you'll lose the respect of the wider/non-flamer community, much like how Timothy & Michael already have.

If you really want to submit a story, that's still cool, but why not do it under another ID -- one your fellow editors are unaware is related to you -- and submit it to the same scruity that normal readers face?

Again, best of luck Zonk! We have high hopes for someone with a name that close to Zork -- don't let us down!

Sincerly,
- The Slashdot Community

Re:Zonk!! Please Read!! (1)

wdr1 (31310) | more than 8 years ago | (#10581250)

Hear, hear!

hmm... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10582236)

Chicks with Joysticks

Shouldn't that be, chicks with "game pads?".. snort!

Oops, I suggested there are difference between men and women, sorry!

Seriously, I think the solution to not having enough girls in games is to start killing off men until the numbers are equal. Or something. I dunno. I don't like many male gamers and I'm sure I wouldn't like female ones either.

You know what I think....... (-1, Troll)

creaturespeaker (823981) | more than 9 years ago | (#10582387)

I think you guys are way overanalyzing this. Lets face it, the most simple explanations are usually the best. The fact is, girls don't play games because they suck at them, in general. Many men also suck at games, but the chances of a man sucking at a game are much less then the chances of a girl sucking at said game. Did you see in that white paper where it said something like "girls would play games more often if games did not penalize the player so much for losing". As if games are not way to easy these days we need to make them even easier so the girls don't get frustrated? Ugh...... What I have just said also explains why girls prefer games that require no skill such as the Sims, and Final Fantasy games. Sorry I am not trying to offend anyone, this is just what I think.=) I am sure some girls are great at games, just most of them are really bad.

Over in Korea (2, Informative)

wrinkledshirt (228541) | more than 9 years ago | (#10583332)

Just wanted to say that any person that tries to link computer game affinity to some sort of inherently male or female quality should come over to Korea. Tons of girls playing games here.

Good, good Starcraft players.

Re:Over in Korea (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10591851)

Just wanted to say that any person that tries to link computer game affinity to some sort of inherently male or female quality should come over to Korea.

It's obvious to anyone with a brain in their head that women can play video games just as well as men could. There might be some subtle disadvantages (ie, 3D navigation) but nothing that isn't overcome with practice. From playing online games and observing other gamers, I can tell you many people are overcoming an IQ disadvantage just by logging in.

This article, and the feminazi left leaning articles that appear on slashdot games from time to time are just trying to further demonize men. You see, women don't play games, and it must be our fault. We don't make our games appeal to them enough, or we aren't nice enough to them when they play. They need to be treated extra nice because they are women. They need to have games specifically made for them because they are women. We, the evil men are opressing them by not making the quake rocket launcher shoot flowers. If they aren't playing games in a 50-50 ration with men or GREATER than it must be our fault. It surely couldn't be that they just aren't that interested.

Tons of girls playing games here.

There is no doubt in my mind women in the US don't play as much because of the social stigma attached to gamers. It's the same reason they don't get invoved in math, or with computers as much. It's simply seen as boring or geeky by them.

Korea....Good, good Starcraft players.

ZERG RUSH! kekekekekeke! Meow, Meow....CHOP....YUM!

Re:Over in Korea (1)

Minna Kirai (624281) | more than 9 years ago | (#10596299)

come over to Korea. Tons of girls playing games here

I've never been there, but newspapers tell me that when couples go to the PC bangs in the evening, the boys will play SC/CS/MMO, and the girls will sit nearby and just IM.

Re:Over in Korea (1)

wrinkledshirt (228541) | more than 9 years ago | (#10596691)

Well, okay, tons is a relative term. But many of the girls I've met or taught over here have played the game a few times. The ones who are good are really quite good.

Can we say HOT CS CHIX0rz OMG L@@K (1)

Moonlapse (802617) | more than 9 years ago | (#10587866)

http://www.nvidia.co.uk/page/eswc_13.html

Chat transcript (1)

vivin (671928) | more than 9 years ago | (#10589565)

Vildkatten: u just got fragged
BigGunz: omg ur the gamer gilr lol
Vildkatten:yes. do u want a rematch?
BigGunz: lol ur hot lol do u wnat ot cyber lol

*** Vildkatten has left the game

Re:Chat transcript (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10591897)

more like

Vildkatten: u just got fragged
BigGunz: haha ur the ugly heffer
Vildkatten:yes. do u want a rematch?
BigGunz: bwhaha u look like something I left in the bowl this morning

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