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India Outsourcers Find Back Door in Canada

samzenpus posted more than 9 years ago | from the close-all-of-our-borders dept.

Businesses 717

securitas writes "Metro International newspapers Toronto edition reports that more Indian companies are opening back doors into the United States by setting up shop in Canada. The issue of outsourcing, offshoring and nearshoring has become a hot issue, with the 2004 presidential election less than a week away. Candidate John Kerry has said he will close the tax loophole that makes it advantageous to outsource call centers."

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Less than a week to pack... (5, Funny)

grub (11606) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650162)


I guess that makes me an evildoer, eh? Ah well, at least Guantanamo Bay will be warmer than Winnipeg this winter.

Guess this makes Canada... (1)

KillScriptKiddies (416341) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650212)

a member of the axis of evil.

Re:Guess this makes Canada... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650231)

Time to "conduct a crusade" and "liberate" them!

Re:Guess this makes Canada... (5, Funny)

grub (11606) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650240)


Be sure you show George where we are on the map. It could be embarassing seeing him saying how great Canada's burritos and Corona are after he conquers Mexico.

So now we can really... (5, Funny)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650165)

Blame Canada?

Like you dont already (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650371)

The Loosers always blame the winners ,

Near-shore is still off-shore (4, Interesting)

fembots (753724) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650166)

I think near-shore or off-shore makes no difference as they're still outsourcing, ie taking away jobs which could have been given to locals.

Bush said druing a debate that he will let Mexicans to come to US to work legally, and gradually obtain residency. If this happens, the Canadian-Indian issue is small in comparison.

Maybe the ideal "screening" is based on the percentage of employees' residency status, so if over 50% of a Canadian company is from developing countries, it's no deal.

Re:Near-shore is still off-shore (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650214)

It is actually against the law in Canada to ask for an employees citizenship or country of origin if he/she holds a valid work permit. That type of screening wouldn't work.

Re:Near-shore is still off-shore (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650233)

Bush said druing a debate that he will let Mexicans to come to US to work legally, and gradually obtain residency. If this happens, the Canadian-Indian issue is small in comparison.
Not that I support Bush, but isn't that a tab bit racest. Why do Mexicans deserve a jobs less than Americans? Because they are Mexican?

Re:Near-shore is still off-shore (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650245)

Bush throws away USA jobs. While Mexico invades - and Bush invites more invaders - we butcher Iraqi olive farmers. Nice work, George.

Re:Near-shore is still off-shore (4, Insightful)

MaelstromX (739241) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650250)

What's so wrong about people seeking work that pays better than what they had originally? Just because they're of a different ethnicity than you, or they speak a different language, you think we should forbid them from coming here to work?

News flash: People are people, some of us had the fortune of being born and raised in stronger economical and freer political environments, but to act like it's wrong for a person to find a better job somewhere and for a company to hire that person is completely antithetical to what freedom and our capitalistic nation is all about.

Re:Near-shore is still off-shore (3, Interesting)

Drakon (414580) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650344)

The argument is basically that illegal foreigners working in the united states have jobs which may have otherwise gone to unemployed americans, whome the government is supposed to represent.
However, if they are working legally, then they have to be working at least at minimum wage, which means there is little or no incentive to hire them rather than an unemployed american citizen, which means that basically they're contributing to the economy. I believe maddox wrote something about this,

Re:Near-shore is still off-shore (3, Insightful)

QuantumRiff (120817) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650279)

If this happens, the Canadian-Indian issue is small in comparison.

I think there are two different keys parts to this statement, (no, i'm not defending one candidate or another).

The first issue is the location of the worker. A mexican immigrant that comes here to work, gradually gaining citizen ship, is contributing to the economy. His wages are taxed, and the things he consumes are local. i.e. he's going to be buying groceries, goods, renting a house, etc. All of this keeps the money in the US, and in a roundabout way, helps create more US jobs. (need more grocery clerks, more construction, etc.)Once they gain Citizenship, they have a vested interest in staying in this country, and continuing to work and consume.

The second issue is the level of education, and the skill level of the jobs. There is a huge percentage of highly educated and/or skilled workers in India and Canada that are "taking" american jobs, and spending the money in their own country. The majority, (no, not all, but the vast majority) of workers from Mexico are relative unskilled laborers. They are not taking over $40k/year jobs with benifits. Of course, this does saturate the lower level, unskilled jobs, and drive their wages down.

To get technical though, in the long run, sending the money to other countries raises their income, and lowers the value of the dollar, making american goods less expensive than before. Exports will go up, but profit will go down, meaning more jobs outsourced to get more profit, and down the downward spiral our economy goes!

Near-shore is still off-shore-Lake Shore. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650353)

"A mexican immigrant that comes here to work, gradually gaining citizen ship, is contributing to the economy. His wages are taxed, and the things he consumes are local. i.e. he's going to be buying groceries, goods, renting a house, etc. "

I've heard that that isn't the case for those who come over on a work visa. As for the second, how much do they contribute to the local economy verses a native, and how close to reality does your answer corollate (don't presume).

Re:Near-shore is still off-shore-Lake Shore. (1)

QuantumRiff (120817) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650395)

are you kidding? THis is slashdot! I think they filed for a patent on presumption!

My point was that while an immigrant on a visa might not be contributing as much as a native, its much more than someone that lives in India, China, Guatamala, etc. getting that same job from a "Native"

Kerry in the senate... (5, Insightful)

havaloc (50551) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650179)

He could of introduced plenty of bills supporting his current election platform as a senator, why didn't he? What makes you think he'll do it now if elected president? Just asking.

Re:Kerry in the senate... (3, Insightful)

skraps (650379) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650203)

That is a valid point, but we know for sure that Bush won't do anything about it as President. Kerry, we have reason to suspect that he may not do anything. But "may not" is better than "will not".

Re:Kerry in the senate... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650257)

no bush simply cannot.

kerry if elected will then be unable too.

kerry right now has the power to do something, he has chosen not to.

Re:Kerry in the senate... (1)

skraps (650379) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650303)

See /. discussion from a few days ago that touched on this. The president doesn't have any authority to make new legislation, but he can most certainly influence congessmen. For all practical purposes, he can introduce any bills he wants to, by endorsing existing bills, encouraging partisan committee votes, applying pressure during state-of-the-union addresses, raising public awareness, etc.

Re:Kerry in the senate... (1)

nomadic (141991) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650440)

...or simply writing a bill, handing it to a friendly congressman or woman, and saying "introduce this".

Re:Kerry in the senate... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650275)

this is perfectly on topic. since the editors showed their bias once again, why cant that point of the article summary be discussed.

Re:Kerry in the senate... (0, Troll)

Timex (11710) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650293)

He could of introduced plenty of bills supporting his current election platform as a senator, why didn't he? What makes you think he'll do it now if elected president? Just asking.

That's a good question. I've heard it said that there's practically nothing that made it out of the Senate with John Kerry's name attached to it. Nothing.

The President of the United States, by design, cannot initiate any bills. He can tell Congress what he would like to see, but that's no guarantee that he'll see it, or that he'll get it.

People running for the highest office of the land have often stumped, claiming that they would do such-n-such a thing, and people accept it as if it were a done deal. Why is that?

Senator Kerry has had twenty years to get bills out to the president, and he has not. It's not because he can't get his point across-- we've seen from the presidential debates that John Kerry is a very able speaker. I think the problem is that he doesn't care about anyone but himself, and he is therefore not motivated to do much, unless it will make himself look better.

If John Kerry will not do anything useful for anyone else while he's in a position to convince his peers to agree on bills to send to the president, why should we believe that he'll take an active roll for the American people as president? We can't, and history proves that we would be gravely mistaken if we did.

Re:Kerry in the senate... (1)

TedCheshireAcad (311748) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650355)

The President of the United States, by design, cannot initiate any bills. He can tell Congress what he would like to see, but that's no guarantee that he'll see it, or that he'll get it.

You missed the part where anyone can draft legislation, but it takes a member of congress to support it and bring it to committee.

Re:Kerry in the senate... (2, Funny)

Monkius (3888) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650342)

I guess he could by lying.

I personally think Kerry's record shows that he has integrity, and that he'll at least try to keep this promise.

Re:Kerry in the senate... (4, Informative)

Doctor Crumb (737936) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650351)

Could *have*, or "Could've". Not "could of".

why do we care what kerry said? (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650185)

why is that in the summary at all...

oh i forgot, it has to be prokerry, it just cant be a simple explanation of events.

the politics section of slashdot is a soapbox for kerry.

EDITORS: ever hear of ATTEMPTING to not show bias

Re:why do we care what kerry said? (4, Interesting)

twiggy (104320) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650227)

I knew from the post that someone would immediately whine that it mentioned Kerry's stance.. and immediately wanted to post something about it...

Slashdot is not a TV or radio network. There is no reason for it to give "equal time" or avoid showing bias. It's "news for nerds" - it doesn't claim to be nonpartisan (or partisan).

The internet is not the same as other "media outlets", and Slashdot has no "responsibility" to be any certain way.

Re:why do we care what kerry said? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650282)

you are wrong, "news for nerds" doesn't mean echoing fsking kerry.

Re:why do we care what kerry said? (1)

twiggy (104320) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650294)

"you are wrong, "news for nerds" doesn't mean echoing fsking kerry."

So? What am I wrong about? It also doesn't mean "nonpartisan, unbiased, balanced news!". Slashdot, if anything, is more of a blog about news than a "news website". It can echo whatever it wants to.

Furthermore, it's not even Slashdot that said it - it's the poster. Slashdot editor(s) simply chose not to censor the post.

Re:why do we care what kerry said? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650348)

No, you are wrong. "news for nerds" means whatever the fuck the Slashdot editors and owners want it to mean. If that includes echoing fsking kerry, then so be it.

Re:why do we care what kerry said? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650352)

it also does not mean it should PUSH it's own agenda at every turn.

slashdot doesnt have to give equal time, but doing everything it can to promote one person is getting old.

it is partisan, and the actions show it.

why did they mention kerry's stance, it was a useless sentance of that summary. why was it even brought up?
what purpose did that serve other than showing the complete and utter bias the editors have.

Re:why do we care what kerry said? (1)

twiggy (104320) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650377)

"They" didn't mention it -- the poster did.

"They" simply didn't CENSOR it.

I haven't seen anything in any recent threads about some republican posting anything pro-bush and the moderators chopping that part out of the post. Give it a shot - go find a worthy story and throw in your pro-Bush blurb. I have no idea if it'll get through, but until I hear that they're CENSORING one side, I see no validity to your complaint that they did not CENSOR the other.

Re:why do we care what kerry said? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650446)

it isnt CENSORING (why you used capital letters is beyond me)

oh and go on about you rant about how im pro bush (im not voting for him)

what is it with people, your logic is that if i dont attack bush at every turn, i must be pro bush. if i even question kerry or any bias towards him, its automatically because i love bush.

you are just an idiot so brainwashed it is pathetic.

try questioning the rhetoric you are so happy to spout. but i guess it is easier to live in your little microcosm of a world where bush is to blame for everything including the cloudy day today.

Re:why do we care what kerry said? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650399)

man i can't wait till this election is over with.

and according to the polls, kerry will dissapear just like gore did.

and i personally cannot wait.
i do not like bush, but this pro anyone but bush stance is getting old.

i havent met a single person who is voting FOR kerry, because they wont admit it, but they also wont say they actually like that man. he is a tool just like clinton was and just like bush is.

Re:why do we care what kerry said? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650255)

don't worry man, kerry will deny what he actually said about outsourcing tomorrow, he still doesn't know which side he is

Re:why do we care what kerry said? (2, Interesting)

Austerity Empowers (669817) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650333)

Normally I'm pretty pro-republican, but I don't see particular story as biased. Kerry has said he will close the tax loophole that essentailly encourages outsourcing. Bush says (see debate #3 transcript) we should get retrained and go to community college.

It's a fact that outsourcing is a hot issue (for some). It's a fact Kerry has made that statement a number of times that he'll fix it. Will he? Can he? What is he going to fix exactly? I doubt it, but it's a pursuasive (and noteable) statement.

Now the fact that /. and it's moderators are left leaning can't be denied. This just isn't a good example.

Tech Support (2, Funny)

elid (672471) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650194)

If Dell outsources their tech support to Canada, at least I'll be able to understand the guy as opposed to the current situation....

Re:Tech Support (5, Funny)

JamieF (16832) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650284)

not necessarily...

User: it's a Latitude CPi-A.
Tech: Got it, a CPi.
User: no, it's a CPi-A.
Tech: I heard you the first time, eh? A CPi.
User: No, a CPi with the letter A.
Tech: With what letter, eh?
...
User: I think it's a boot virus.
Tech: What's about virus?
User: No, it's a boot virus.
Tech: What does "it's about virus" mean? What virus, eh? ...

Re:Tech Support (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650400)

Oh man I laughed so hard coffee came out of my nose, and I wasn't even drinking coffee. If only I had mod points...

Re:Tech Support (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650367)

Try Sun support. I am refusing to recommend Sun products until they get people on the phone who can speak understandable English and have a clue about what they are talking about. The last two support calls I made were total waste of time. 9 days to get a broken hard drive replaced!

DiD not get the Memo ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650391)

Dell are already built in Canada and they also do support in Canada too , its Texas factory that got closed ...

Re:Tech Support (2, Interesting)

sevensharpnine (231974) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650405)

I was doing a tech support call to Dell the other day to replace a DOA monitor. This item had a warantee under Dell's "Higher-Education Service Contract." Now, I only spoke to one person, so I can't comment on the entire situation. But for what it's worth, the guy on the other end spoke clear english, but he had a certain emphasis on vowels that struck me as odd. And when he was reading me back the letters, expanding each with a word for clarity, he said "...and 'p', as in Pierre."

Well at least you will be able to understand them (3, Insightful)

Megor1 (621918) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650195)

As anyone knows who has hit someone in India the accents can be very hard to understand, Canadian accents (if any) are very close to americain ones so you might be able to get the help you need!

Re:Well at least you will be able to understand th (1)

lashi (822466) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650234)

>As anyone knows who has hit someone in India the accents can be very hard to understand

I would say 'aaagh' sounds pretty much the same in any language. You mean you had trouble understand the guy's accent when he was cussing you for hitting him?

Re:Well at least you will be able to understand th (1)

rinkjustice (24156) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650248)

I'm a Canuck, and I remember chatting with a guy from the States (I think it was Texas), and during the conversation I said the word "house". He suddenly burst out laughing and told me to say "house" again. I did and he was nearly rolling around on the floor. He said us Canadians pronounce certain words funny. Go figure.

Re:Well at least you will be able to understand th (1)

gcaseye6677 (694805) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650297)

If you want to get the guy back, just ask him to say any word with more than 3 syllables. I guarantee you'll laugh at least as hard.

Re:Well at least you will be able to understand th (3, Funny)

nomadic (141991) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650469)

You're allowed to smack Texans upside the head. They usually deserve it.

Re:Well at least you will be able to understand th (1)

typobox43 (677545) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650254)

Did you plug in the computer, eh? What aboot the power button, eh, did you push it?

Re:Well at least you will be able to understand th (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650374)

Oh take off, ya hoser!

Canada = America not USA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650408)

" are very close to americain ones "

You mean Etats-Unians ... Canadian are "THE" americans

American lives in a democracy

US = Republic
Canada = Democracy

American always win the war

Canada as ye to loose one war
US , well let just say that you cant even beat Irak ...

etc ...

this doesn't worry me, for some reason. (4, Interesting)

wintermute1000 (731750) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650197)

I think it's because there was a fad for awhile for directors of TV and movies to film in Canada, because it was cheaper, and for a little while a lot of places in Southern California were feeling it. But then prices started going up in the areas in Canada where filming was being done because there was awareness that there were lots of rich people there all of a sudden, and the locals acted accordingly. It'll balance itself out. At least, in my youthful optimism, I'm going to hope it will.

Re:this doesn't worry me, for some reason. (1)

skraps (650379) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650274)

I predict that hollywood will become completely nomadic. It will move from unsuspecting town to unsuspecting town, leaving each one as soon as the locals catch on. I have seen these unscrupulous bastards already purchasing busses and vans! They are mobilizing.

Re:this doesn't worry me, for some reason. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650388)

How very gonzo of you...

Re:this doesn't worry me, for some reason. (1)

iCEBaLM (34905) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650474)

Infact, our dollar has become much stronger. It is now currently trading at 81.7063 cents US, contrast this to Jan 2003 where it was trading at less than 65 cents US.

Full disclosure (3, Funny)

typobox43 (677545) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650198)

Did they follow proper disclosure procedures and report the backdoor to the Canadian government before submitting it to Slashdot?

Re:Full disclosure (1)

LostCluster (625375) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650258)

Unfortnately, the exploit affects mostly the userbase in the USA so the Canadian Government couldn't be bothered to write a patch law...

splendid (5, Insightful)

BungoMan85 (681447) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650205)

Why doesn't anyone ever talk about all the jobs being insourced [contracostatimes.com] ? The real "Benedict Arnold" companies are those that move their headquarters overseas -- in the form of a rented office in Bermuda -- to avoid paying US taxes, not US-based companies with manufacturing centers in other countries. Those are the real tax cheats.

splendid-Foreign roundabouts. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650306)

The question I have is, why all the roundabout? Why didn't the US companies outsource to Canada in the first place, if it's so wonderful, instead of India?

Re:splendid (1)

Duncan3 (10537) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650325)

Yea, sad thing is if they couldnt take their HQ elsewhere, the taxes are so high here they would just move EVERYTHING. SO be glad they can do this otherwise Wall Street would flatline their stock.

Taxes have to pay for that deficit ya know.

Re:splendid (1)

vijayiyer (728590) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650378)

The reason that US companies move their headquarters is that the US is one of the only countries in the world to double tax corporations - we make them pay US corporate income tax on income earned both in the US and abroad. Therefore, they end up paying taxes to both the US and foreign countries on foreign earned income. Other countries only tax corporations on income earned in their country.

Close the tax loophole? (4, Insightful)

phorm (591458) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650206)

What tax loophole is this exactly? I know that the companies avoid certain expenses just due to lower wages offshore, but taxes too?

If there is a loophole, closing it would mean more revenues for the government (plus for them) and/or less outsources (plus for us)

Re:Close the tax loophole? (5, Insightful)

LardBrattish (703549) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650332)

I think what we might be dealing with is fallout from the Free Trade Agreement with Canada whereby the Indian company sets up an office in Canada which then negotiates with the American company as a Canadian firm with all of the FTA related breaks but the work is actually carried out in India.

I'm sure the Canadians view this as pretty ironic given that a similar trick was used by the Americans to destroy the Canadian car industry vis using the two FTAs with Canada & Mexico to sell Mexican built cars to the Canadians as if they were American for the purposes of tarriffs.

And John Howard has just signed Australia up for an FTA with America - smart move John, we'll be thanking you for that one for the next 50 years. The only hope Australia's got IMHO is to sign a FTA with China & threaten America with mutually assured destruction if they try to play fast & loose with the terms of the contract. Note - first ever correct usage of the word "loose" in the history of slashdot

Re:Close the tax loophole? (2, Insightful)

GeorgeMcBay (106610) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650334)

What tax loophole is this exactly? I know that the companies avoid certain expenses just due to lower wages offshore, but taxes too?


Lower wages equates directly into lower taxes. You may not have noticed but the government taxes your wages. The less an employer pays for an employee the less taxes the government gets. Not to mention the secondary issues, such as the fact that overseas workers won't be paying US sales tax on bought goods.

Re:Close the tax loophole? (3, Insightful)

rhakka (224319) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650369)

That's an effect, not a loophole. Unless you're saying that we should be taxing foreign workers or something.

Re:Close the tax loophole? (1)

roman_mir (125474) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650424)

**If you know something, and you don't teach someone, it's just like you never knew it.. -Stick - that's a load of BS. If I know something and don't teach anyone what I know but at the same time it is beneficial to me in some way, it does not equate to me never knowing it since if I did not know it I would not have had been able to benefit from it.

Re:Close the tax loophole? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650336)

Would that be similar to the Steel loop-hole?
(WTO ruling on that one)
Are we looking at tarrifs on foriegn services?

Anybody hip to the meat of Kerry's sound bite?

-Just An Ant

Yes, what the heck is Kerry smoking? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650356)

I don't like Bush, but damn if Kerry isn't a shill twit with his anti-current situation/anti-Republican multiple choice reply crap.

I would have gladly voted for Dean. And while I am ranting on that - why do we place so much of the decision of candidates on hicks from Iowa. It is obvious they had done absolutely no political research and went for who was better looking. There needs to be a way to correctly adjust for primary momentum.

Democrats were headed for a solid win and then one stupid rally incident for Dean and then swapping to Kerry totally ruined any chance of bringing in moderate conservatives. Democrats need to vote with their heads a little more.

Re:Yes, what the heck is Kerry smoking? (1)

Peyna (14792) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650433)

There needs to be a way to correctly adjust for primary momentum.

Easy, have all the states hold their primaries at the same time.

Call Centres (2, Funny)

Kenshin (43036) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650224)

Candidate John Kerry has said he will close the tax loophole that makes it advantageous to outsource call centers.

Good thing there's only Call Centres in Canada, then. (Spelling loophole?)

Thats transitivity for ya (4, Interesting)

Ars-Fartsica (166957) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650237)

The US has two free trade agreements with Canada, so get used to finding out what agreements Canada has with other nations..they will quickly become agreements with the US by transitivity.

Also please remember that the US has spent the last twenty five years literally ramming free trade down the world's collective throat (admittedly, an effort made on behalf of the financial elite, not workers).

Re:Thats transitivity for ya (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650413)

Also please remember that the US has spent the last twenty five years literally ramming free trade down the world's collective throat (admittedly, an effort made on behalf of the financial elite, not workers).

What, you've got something against the international free market of ideas and products?

"Shooters" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650239)


Up here in Montreal, ads for "shooters" are all over the place in the alternatve weeklies promising good money. I've often wondered what a "shooter" is.

Seems to me that it might be a cool name for a phone scammer.

Canadian companies have imported India to Canada (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650243)

Canadian companies have imported India to Canada in IT for quite sometime.
I used to work for a Canadian company, which receives grants from the government as sys admin (50+ servers), an avarage 10-12 hrs a day due to intentional understaffing, on call every second week, including weekends, with the demand that at any time I had to be able to be there within 30 minutes - for a splended $28K a year, no overtime payment.
Felt like a hightech sweatshop in India, I swear.

Give em an American name and all will be ok... (1)

hools1234 (789912) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650265)

When Australia outsources to Indian call centres, they give the Indian a new name. You see it all is ok that I can't understand what the heck the guy as saying.. because his name is Barry, or Kevin. The Canadians just need a nice American name... that makes it all better :(

Pre-Emptive strike on Canada!!! (0, Flamebait)

atcg (818019) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650266)

...that is after France, Russia, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Saudia Arabia, Palestine, Germany, Florida, and this little Iraq mess is cleaned up, and then I guess there is North Korea to deal with and China and maybe Australia is looking at us a little side-ways and needs a 20kiloton dropped a couple miles off of Sydney just to shake them up. Deal with yourselves America, you were a great country only 40 years ago but now its all crocodile tears rolling down a pair of disgustingly flabby cheeks.

Re:Pre-Emptive strike on Canada!!! (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650321)

I can't wait until something bad happens to your country.

If the list you posted was accurate, I hope you live in France.

canada (1)

omirix (819581) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650270)

Lame Canada! Die, albinoes.

Outsourcing bites (1)

OccidentalSlashy (809265) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650276)

I rented Canadian Bacon the other day...PEH!!

You're fighting a Knob Goblin Assistant Chef. You failed to hit the monster.

Exchange rates (1, Interesting)

Colin Smith (2679) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650278)

Far more important. The dollar is weakening, Americans are getting cheaper.

HTH

Not that I think Bush has a clue what he's doing. A one trick pony who isn't even very good at that trick.

Close the loophole and raise the taxes (1, Interesting)

I am the Bullgod (797123) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650283)

"Candidate John Kerry has said he will close the tax loophole that makes it advantageous to outsource call centers." After that, he plans to raise corporate taxes and drive the companies back overseas anyway. I can't understand why people can't see through this man's shameless pandering. On one hand, he acknowledges that a company's tax burden influences their decision to outsource and on the other he slams Bush for lowering corporate tax burden to keep them from moving offshore.

Re:Close the loophole and raise the taxes (1)

twiggy (104320) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650358)

I'd love to hear a good, cohesive argument for why I should vote for Bush. I'm not exactly Pro-Kerry, by the way. I simply haven't heard one SANE argument for voting for Bush. The best I've heard is "Kerry flip flips! He panders! He... he... he does what EVERY politician does!"

I'm listening. Please - make your argument (please back up any "facts" with sources). If you put something cohesive AND factual together, I'll give Bush my vote.

Re:Close the loophole and raise the taxes (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650418)

the same can be said about kerry.

why would you vote for kerry. i have yet to see one cohesive argument to vote for him.

i do agree with you about bush, but why does that same arguement not apply to kerry. why hasnt that question been asked about him

and "he isnt bush" isnt a valid answer in my opinion.

Re:Close the loophole and raise the taxes (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650462)

Companies move offshore because they pay *zero* tax there. It doesn't matter whether the US tax rate is higher or lower than it is now - if it's greater than zero, and the companies can benefit from it, they'll re-incorporate in Bermuda.

And I find it hard to believe that someone interested in keeping their job would vote Republican. You think these guys want you to have a good job? The Republicans *are* the wealthy elite. They want you to be insecure in your job, because then you'll work harder for them. And they want to pay you as little as possible. Oh, and by the way - they own the companies that offshoring staff, and moving headquarters offshore to avoid taxes.

Business Taxes (1)

Antony-Kyre (807195) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650286)

Why not close all business loopholes and perhaps create a flat business income tax? This way there's no weaseling out of it somehow. Wouldn't this increase tax revenue? Perhaps only on businesses making over a certain amount, since small businesses could be hurt.

History repeating itself (1)

prakslash (681585) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650305)

IT industry is following in the footsteps of the Auto industry.

It started with outsourcing of Auto manufacturing jobs to Japan because they could build better cars cheaper. All that remained in the U.S. were few design jobs. This led to a decrease in in the number of auto jobs in the U.S. and a downward pressure on auto job salaries.

However, soon the manufacturing costs in Japan rose and they found they could serve their customer better and make their cars cheaper if they opened auto plants closer to the customer.

The result is that majority of Toyotas sold in the U.S. today are built right here by workers who get paid lower than before.

Same thing might happen in the IT industry.

Re:History repeating itself (2, Insightful)

wing03 (654457) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650430)

However, soon the manufacturing costs in Japan rose and they found they could serve their customer better and make their cars cheaper if they opened auto plants closer to the customer.

The result is that majority of Toyotas sold in the U.S. today are built right here by workers who get paid lower than before.

Same thing might happen in the IT industry.


Doubt it...

It cost time and $$$ to ship raw materials to Japan and it cost more time and $$$ to ship the finished product back. Thus it makes perfect sense to put the plant near the customers.

With IT, your finished product is not as tangible. The cost to ship support or software from a boiler room to North America is the cost of the phone/data lines in between.

History repeating itself-Not quite. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650438)

"It started with outsourcing of Auto manufacturing jobs to Japan because they could build better cars cheaper. "

NO, it started with them competing against the amercican car makers with a better product. The american jobs were still here.

"However, soon the manufacturing costs in Japan rose and they found they could serve their customer better and make their cars cheaper if they opened auto plants closer to the customer."

Actually no. Tariffs were majorily responsible for that. It's cheaper to make them here because TADA! No tariff on local goods. Compare to making and shipping to a tariffed country. Plus as a side bonus you can stick that "made in america" label on it as a selling point.

"The result is that majority of Toyotas sold in the U.S. today are built right here by workers who get paid lower than before."

I live in Indiana, they still get paid decent.

What exactly can be done? (2, Insightful)

brandonp (126) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650311)

I really fail to see any real solution to this issue being presented. Tax loopholes won't erase the fact that there are qualified workers in a cheaper business environments. All the tax loophole becomes is a Red Herring for the real issue. Let's come up with serious and real solutions to this. A. India has very qualified workers B. They are very will to work and will work for a lower wage C. The end result usually comes out to be similiar to what would be done in the U.S. I'm not sure what could be done, but I know that Tax Loopholes have nothing to do with the real problem of outsourcing. --- Get Firefox! [spreadfirefox.com]

Umm... geek news, not kerry advertisements? (-1, Flamebait)

Ikeya (7401) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650328)

The issue of outsourcing, offshoring and nearshoring has become a hot issue, with the 2004 presidential election less than a week away. Candidate John Kerry has said he will close the tax loophole that makes it advantageous to outsource call centers.

I don't want to sound like a jerk, but not all Slashdotters appreciate blatant endorsements of candidates on a front page story. Editors, please keep this kind of editorializing out of the article postings.

Canada the better of two evils? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650338)

It is true that not matter how you look at it out sourcing is bad for the US, not so of course for the place its being insourced to, but if I had to pick a place for jobs to be outsourced it would be Canada. Why? Because there is a lot a trade and tourist between us and them and some of that money might make its way back to the states

give me a break (4, Insightful)

asv108 (141455) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650368)

"Candidate John Kerry has said he will close the tax loophole that makes it advantageous to outsource call centers."

First off I'm voting for Kerry, but the idea that new legislation is going curb the tax advantages of outsourcing is ludicrous. So lets say Kerry does pass such a bill, what will happen? Large companies will simple open up offshore subsiaries to skirt the law, similiar to what Haliburton did under the leadership of Dick Cheney, by having a Caymen islands phantom corporation in order to business with nations like Iran.

Add it to the list of apologies (5, Funny)

stilbon (69689) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650389)

from an old episode of This Hour Has 22 Minutes

An Apology to Americans
By Reporter 'Anthony St. George' (Performed by Colin Mochrie)

Hello. I'm Anthony St. George on location here in Washington.

On behalf of Canadians everywhere I'd like to offer an apology to the United States of America. We haven't been getting along very well recently and for that, I am truly sorry. I'm sorry we called George Bush a moron. He is a moron, but it wasn't nice of us to point it out. If it's any consolation, the fact that he's a moron shouldn't reflect poorly on the people of America. After all, it's not like you actually elected him.

I'm sorry about our softwood lumber. Just because we have more trees than you, doesn't give us the right to sell you lumber that's cheaper and better than your own. It would be like if, well, say you had ten times the television audeince we did and you flood our market with great shows, cheaper than we could produce. I know you'd never do that.

I'm sorry we beat you in Olympic hockey. In our defence I guess our excuse would be that our team was much, much, much, much better than yours. As word of apology, please accept all of our NHL teams which, one by one, are going out of business and moving to your fine country.

I'm sorry about our waffling on Iraq. I mean, when you're going up against a crazed dictator, you want to have your friends by your side. I realize it took more than two years before you guys pitched in against Hitler, but that was different. Everyone knew he had weapons.

I'm sorry we burnt down your White House during the War of 1812. I see you've rebuilt it! It's very nice.

I'm sorry for Alan Thicke, Shania Twain, Celine Dion, Loverboy, that song from Seriff that ends with a really high-pitched long note. Your beer. I know we had nothing to do with your beer, but we feel your pain.

And finally on behalf of all Canadians, I'm sorry that we're constantly apologizing for things in a passive-aggressive way which is really a thinly veiled criticism. I sincerely hope that you're not upset over this. Because we've seen what you do to countries you get upset with.

For 22 minutes, I'm Anthony St. George, and I'm sorry.

Re:Add it to the list of apologies (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650425)

This Hour Has 22 Minutes used to be funny. Since Rick Mercer left it just plain blows goats (Colin Mochrie was ok, but the show wasn't the same).

Re:Add it to the list of apologies (1)

stilbon (69689) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650449)

agreed...




great, now i have to head over to jumptheshark and suggest an entry.

Hey, someone has to do the work while you're (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650394)

away seeing the world. [iowastatedaily.com]

Outsourcing to Canada (2, Insightful)

Bigbutt (65939) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650426)

It won't last. As someone else pointed out. Hollywood used Canada for a while until the locals wised up and prices went up.

The difference is that Canada has a significantly better quality of life than the average Indian. So the Indian company can pay an Indian call center employee 8,000 a year, he'd still have to pay a Canadian call centre employee 30,000 or 40,000 a year. This is vs a call center employee here making 40,000 to 50,000 a year. (All WAG's, recent tech support position advertised on dice.com was for 55 an hour).

When India starts fining the companies dumping waste into the Ganges, the companies will pass on the costs to the citizens which will then require raises in order to be able to afford the goods these companies sell. When the wages get too high, they'll outsource to China. Then China will start fining the mining companies (chinese dieing in unsafe mines because it's either work the mine or starve) or waste management folks (chinese exposed to toxic waste from computer salvaging) and the cycle starts again.

I think my salary (currently non-existant) is globally balanced. When you consider all aspects, I was getting paid the same amount, adjusted for living conditions, as the guy in India who got $10,000 and pays .50 for lunch. Once India starts cleaning up, the rates will rise and they'll outsource again.

you FAIcL it (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650461)

ultimately, 3e [goat.cx]

LOL, nice bias (0, Offtopic)

squarooticus (5092) | more than 9 years ago | (#10650465)

Candidate John Kerry has also said he'll add a $2 trillion dollar giveaway in the form of universal health care to everyone projected to be on the dole when it gets implemented without raising my taxes.

Right.

So basically now (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10650472)

I'll be able to go flee to Canada and work for Indians to escape the draft after Bush, freed from even the accountability of worrying about the election, in his second term continues on more military adventures although our military is still overtaxed in Iraq?

Sounds great, where do I sign up?

No, really, I'm serious.
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