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TiVo Plans More Functionality Reductions

michael posted more than 9 years ago | from the knuckling-under dept.

Television 521

TiVo has been in the news recently with a couple of plans to make their service less useful than it could be: first, TiVos will now auto-delete pay-per-view and video-on-demand movies, and second, TiVo is making sure that you can't use a TiVo to view NFL games outside the specified market area. TiVo's lawyer explains.

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Irony (3, Funny)

Prophetic_Truth (822032) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653610)

it's only fitting that when I clicked this article it read "Nothing for you to see here. Please move along."

Hmm. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10653613)

Sounds like Trusted Computing in a beta test.

Speaking of trust... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10653638)

How about a nice big load of anti-trust for the NFL. Spitzer, get in there!

Hmmm... (4, Funny)

TheSpoom (715771) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653614)

And I'll continue to not own a TiVo and download the shows I want to watch. Damn that internet! ;^)

Re:Hmmm... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10653915)

Wow you guys are not very informed, I can easily download the content from my tivo to my pc, then how is it going to "delete" it? It runs linux remeber, I know you guys have heard of ftp.
If you morons think anyone pays the subscription for the ability to record you are also misinformed. Myth TV takes skills to get running, it is not easy at all. I have always hated that TiVo makes me sound like a foking mac-head but the foking thing just works. I have a time warner HD-DVR and it is a foking peice of crap, the UI is crap, the responsiveness is crap the box is crap. I would like to get a Myth box up for its streaming ability, even able to stream from my TiVo.

As for paying TiVo and the fees, you pay the fee to get the programming legally and the box is sold at a loss. So they get some of their money back in subscription fees. Can you build a Tivo equivalent for $99 with a 60 gig drive? If you can let me in on the secret.

If you are using a Myth box you are "stealing" programming information, which I am sure they will work to shut that down once it gets beyond the very way out fringe guys. I am also sure the world if full of bright folks that will get around whatever they do. :)

daily updates (1)

MegaFur (79453) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653958)

I do this as well, plus I have a netflix subscription. It's working out great so far except for *one* *thing*.

The Daily Show. I did a couple or three Google searches, found a couple torrent sites, but nothing really current and nothing that updated frequently.

Any thoughts? I mean, can you think of any way I can get daily or at least bi-weekly updates of the Daily Show without a cable subscription?

(I realize you have no reason to help, but any advice you could offer would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. :-) )

The message TiVo should use for these lock outs (-1, Redundant)

grunt107 (739510) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653624)

Nothing to see here. Please move along.

Glad I have myth (5, Insightful)

FictionPimp (712802) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653625)

I'm just glad I have mythTV. Sure I might have a problem if I have to switch to digital cable, but I dont have to worry about people deleting my videos before i'm done with them.

Re:Glad I have myth (1)

NoMoreNicksLeft (516230) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653671)

The Tivo hardware is awesome though. Solution? Don't subscribe to their service, and roll back to a non-DRMed version of the software.

Re:Glad I have myth (2, Informative)

conteXXt (249905) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653706)

dvb-t (digital cable support) or dvb-s (satellite)
should do the trick :-)

(myth supports both)

Re:Glad I have myth (5, Interesting)

ERJ (600451) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653733)

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that you would be limited to non-encrypted signals with dvb capable cards. That would pretty much leave you with local channels...

Re:Glad I have myth (1)

LighthouseJ (453757) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653766)

Pretty soon I'm going to join the PVR crowd and Myth looks better and better in the fact it's flexible. Now that TiVo is bending over for movie and TV distributors, I like Myth even more.

Re:Glad I have Dish PVR (3, Interesting)

computechnica (171054) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653826)

Dish networks PVR is restriction free. It will record anything you want and keep it. It also has the nice 30 second skip on the remote (with out any codes to turn it on). I use my old All-in-Wonder card to permanently record shows from it. The only thing it lacks is the smart recording functions that TIVO has, but then that function sounds like it would be a lot of work to delete things it records that you do not want.

Best thing about it is that it was free 8^)

Re:Glad I have Dish PVR (1)

GweeDo (127172) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653939)

The thing is, Dish could do the exact same thing to us (I have a DVR522). Since there is NOTHING stopping them from pushing updates to you. Good thing Dish programmers are to busy trying to fix all the bugs in the 522 to stick us with that kinda crap ;P

Glad I have Snapstream (2, Interesting)

swordboy (472941) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653975)

For those who are like me and don't want to deal with the configuration of Myth on linux with all of its dependency goodness, have a go at Beyond TV [snapstream.com] . It worked for me and I like it a lot. The new version (3.5) will do multiple tuners [snapstream.com] too.

Should read (5, Insightful)

Phixxr (794883) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653630)

Should read "Tivo plans to shrink customer base".

-phixxr

TiVo Shoots Self in Foot (4, Insightful)

Trikenstein (571493) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653632)

I can see how they would do this to reduce their legal costs, but it has to be costing them subscribers.

TiVo: Less useful everyday (4, Funny)

d_jedi (773213) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653633)

(ie: parody of MSN's "More useful everyday" slogan, for the mods :-> )

Knew it (2, Insightful)

Omniscientist (806841) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653636)

"The reason that TiVo has to auto-delete a PPV movie is because it will be available for sale on DVD later on. " Saw this whole thing coming...of course some gigantic shows that make alot of money off advertising (NFL), and big movie productions were eventually going to start complaining to TiVo...I knew it wouldn't last!!!

Let's get all the knee-jerk bs out of the way... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10653642)

But MythTV is free!

Kill your TV!

Football is for faggots!

Makes me glad. (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10653657)

I chose a replay TV over the Tivo.
yes, I bought a discontinued product.

but I dont get the company messing around in my property and I get to archive off shows effortlessly.

tell me why again why I want a Tivo instead of a replayTV????

Re:Makes me glad. -- ReplayTV is a smart choice (1)

phaln (579585) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653809)

I've got a ReplayTV as well. They leave me the hell alone, and I pay my $12.95 a month. Not a bad trade, if you ask me. ;) I always recommend a roll-your-own PVR (like MythTV) or ReplayTV over Tivo EVERY time, for precisely this reason.

PPV (4, Insightful)

SuiteSisterMary (123932) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653668)

I don't understand the problem. With Pay Per View, you are QUITE SPECIFICALLY buying a license to watch a movie once. You are PAYing PER VIEW.

There's no ambiguity about buying physical media vs the content, about buying a license, and so on. You're paying to have a movie playing to your sat/cable box at a specific time and date. Done.

Re:PPV (1)

liquidpele (663430) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653747)

If I start a company that's called "GIVE ME YOUR HOUSE FOR A MOVIE", it doesn't mean you actually have to give me your house for a move unless you're really really stupid and don't know all your rights.

Re:PPV (3, Insightful)

GoofyBoy (44399) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653959)

>it doesn't mean you actually have to give me your house for a move unless you're really really stupid and don't know all your rights.

Huh?

Party 1: Give me legal ownership of your house or equivlent money and I will let you watch/own this movie.
Party 2: Agreed.

Ok, the Party 2 might be dumb or smart depending on the worth of his house or if he gains rights to something he believes is worth the house.
But how does Party 2 knowing all his rights makes the agreement invalid?

Re:PPV (2, Interesting)

DroopyStonx (683090) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653754)

Yeah but... no one loses out on money if you copy it and watch it later.

How many times have you personally ordered the SAME pay per view movie more than once? Unless you're lying, the answer is none.

So really, it doesn't matter. They're clearly just doing this to be assholes and try to further put control on what people can record and keep even though the material in question, along with their profits, is completely irrelevant.

Re:PPV (4, Insightful)

Dun Malg (230075) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653961)

They're clearly just doing this to be assholes and try to further put control on what people can record and keep even though the material in question, along with their profits, is completely irrelevant.

Or, more likely, they're doing it to stave off possible legal challenges from the purveyors of PPV movies and NFL football. Said purveyors may have already made an issue of it behind the scenes.

Re:PPV (1)

Prophetic_Truth (822032) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653759)

yeah, but haven't you noticed most ppv movies have hit the home market via DVD or VHS prior to airing on PPV? This is do to the movie execs knowing that once its on PPV it can be taped. I've always been able to use my VCR to tape PPV movies and Events, why would I limit myself with Tivo when another pvr will let me do it.

Re:PPV (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10653806)

Excuse me, but for as long as I've used PPV (which dates back to the early 90's) it's always been explicitly allowed to tape PPV purchases.

I mean, who in their right mind is going to spend $50+ on a wrestling PPV if I don't end up with copies for everyone who pitched in for the event? Sure, we did it with VHS tapes, but the concept is the same!

Movies are no different. I still have a few tapes floating around with old PPV movies on them. I even remember my cable provider had a special channel dedicated to describing their service, and they talk about why you would want to hook your cable box up to your VCR: to record PPV events, as well as anything else you see.

Next time you order a PPV, tell me where you sign the license entitling you to one viewing and one viewing only. Or maybe you can point it out in the terms of service of my cable provider.

Or, maybe not.

Re:PPV (0, Flamebait)

Quarters (18322) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653828)

Exactly. For everyone who doesn't understand this I have a simple experiment for them to try: *Go to your favorite video store.
*Rent a newly released title.
*Keep it forever.
*Explain how you can be righteously indignant about that, but feel that PPV movies are somehow Pay-Per-I-Get-To-Keep-It-Indefinately because you say so.

Re:PPV (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10653908)

How about I do this instead:
* Rent a newly released title
* Take it home and copy it
* Return it on time
* Explain how PPV movies explicitly allow this option and that this new "solution" will remove that

Re:PPV (1)

Suppafly (179830) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653937)

that's an interesting albeit flawed argument.

people have enjoyed recording pay per view movies with vcr's for the last 20 years, it's ridiculous to tell consumers they can't do what they've been doing for the last 20 years just because they've upgraded their video recording equipment.

Re:PPV (4, Insightful)

0123456 (636235) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653938)

Of course, as usual, you completely ignore the difference between renting a DVD and not returning it -- i.e. depriving the owner of their property -- and copying a PPV movie and keeping it, which only deprives the distributor of potential future income that you were probably never going to give them anyway.

So quite why your post is rated 'Insightful' is beyond me.

Re:PPV (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10653942)

Wow, your amazing skills of logic and reasoning fail to amaze me at all.

This analogy doesn't survive the laugh test. A video store rents you a movie. That is a physical copy. PPV is a broadcast copy. Keeping a rented video deprives the store of their physical posession. Recording a broadcast does no such thing.

Your analogy looks something like this:

I take a photograph of your house. I have just STOLEN YOUR F*CKING HOUSE OMG!!1!1!one!1

Re:PPV (1)

gebbeth (720597) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653851)

I don't understand the problem. With Pay Per View, you are QUITE SPECIFICALLY buying a license to watch a movie once. You are PAYing PER VIEW. There's no ambiguity about buying physical media vs the content, about buying a license, and so on. You're paying to have a movie playing to your sat/cable box at a specific time and date. Done.


This is presupposing that the uses of existing technologies are invalid (VCR DVDR) where you can record a program off of television and record it in a semi-permanent state. This is the heart of fair-use, you paid for it to be displayed on your television, whether you record that with your brain or on some other media (dvd, vhs, hard disk) it should not matter.

Re:PPV (1)

0123456 (636235) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653976)

"This is the heart of fair-use, you paid for it to be displayed on your television, whether you record that with your brain or on some other media (dvd, vhs, hard disk) it should not matter."

Fortunately the 'Happy Fluffy Kittens and Copyright Protection Act 2006' is going to introduce a clause forcing viewers to delete all copies of PPV movies from their brain after watching...

Re:PPV (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10653860)

And if I'm trying to set something up to record while I'm on vacation and it gets automatically deleted before I gt back I just got a Pay for Nothing.

Victimhood (5, Insightful)

Roadkills-R-Us (122219) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653920)

TiVo is a victim. They're a victim of doing the right thing. The whole "information wants to be free" thing has gotten insanely out of hand. This is a logical waystation for us to be at, sadly enough, given society today. "If I want it, I should have it, and it doesn't matter that I signed a contract saying something different. Besides, it's not *really* theft, it's just a movie."

[Wish I could offer you a job, but (a) we're not hiring and (b) we're not in Ohio. But integrity and understanding right and wrong are high on my list for qualifying applicants. And getting harder to find.]

Re:PPV (5, Insightful)

Waffle Iron (339739) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653962)

With Pay Per View, you are QUITE SPECIFICALLY buying a license to watch a movie once. You are PAYing PER VIEW.

That may be what the provider intends, but unless there is law backing that up, I am entitled record it and view it later as I please.

Standard copyright case law allows me to timeshift, and I didn't sign any contract with the cable company that said I specifically couldn't record a PPV show.

There's no ambiguity about buying physical media vs the content, about buying a license, and so on. You're paying to have a movie playing to your sat/cable box at a specific time and date. Done.

As I just pointed out, you're just plain wrong. I don't need a license as an end user because standard copyright law allows me to timeshift the show without one. There is no license. I payed to have the movie play on my box, and I'm entitled to save it for later viewing.

Stupid. (0, Flamebait)

Heem (448667) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653673)

I always thought the idea of tivo was stupid anyway. I mean, why should I pay someone a service charge to allow me to "record" the programming that I already pay my cable company for. I can do that, even with this old device called a "VCR". Sure digital is much cooler, but there is no need for any service to have to interact with it. I say screw tivo and it's brethren. Build your own system.

Re:Stupid. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10653748)

Go look up what TiVo provides. Its much more than a VCR. Your post just proves your ignorance of the subject.

Re:Stupid. (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653784)

I always thought the idea of tivo was stupid anyway. I mean, why should I pay someone a service charge to allow me to "record" the programming that I already pay my cable company for.

Because they don't. They charge you for a device That allows you to record the programming, and they sell you a service that provides you with accurate program listings. You know, unlike the ones on the TV Guide channel.

Re:Stupid. (1)

Heem (448667) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653924)

Obviously there is more to the service then just a directory - How else are they deleting your pay per view movies, or restricting what football games you can record? To give some company that much control over what I can record is rediculous.

Re:Stupid. (4, Interesting)

bastion_xx (233612) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653808)

I say screw tivo and it's brethren. Build your own system.

I own a DirecTivo yet am doing what you've suggested and am building a system for my GF and her kids (analog cable only).

MythTV + ASUS Pundit-R + PVR-350 + Fedora FC2

I'm now at about 30 hours of effort and climbing. Not that I care too much as I've learned about about the driver structure for ivtv, lirc, and xorg configs (don't get to play with non-MS GUI's too often). Short of it is, roll-your-own is only for those that have the technical expertise and can understand that apt-get of the pre2-100zz packages don't work with the latest firmware in card XYZ.

When compared to pulling a Tivo out of the box, plugging it in, going through the setup menu and having it work vs the current MythTV more MS MCE crip crap, it's a no brainer. Hopefully HTPC packages will become more refined, both in the OSS environment and off the shelf (I'd love to try MCE but am not willing to pay the cost especially on uncertified hardware).

Caving in to Macrovision and the content providers will be a blow to Tivo in the long run. It's unfortunate that even if there is a huge backlash from users, thier voices will be a pale echo of the majority of PVR users (those being provided by the cable companies, etc).

Sad day for Tivo indeed.

Re:Stupid. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10653919)

I'm in the same boat, I have a Tivo, love it, but decided to build a MythTV box. small form factor PC, with liquid cooling, nice quiet system, PVR250 card...

And getting it all working together is a pain in the ass.
(the machine, and all the components will technically work with Linux... now if I could get sound and video working properly...)

Re:Stupid. (2, Interesting)

gcaseye6677 (694805) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653845)

This is what I've always thought. I can see why Tivo makes it more convenient to record a show, with the menus you can control with your remote, but you could always set up a computer to record shows to your hard disk. Or use the old fashioned VCR. I view Tivo as a convenience item. Kind of like buying bread at the bakery instead of baking your own.

Re:Stupid. (1)

Overzeetop (214511) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653949)

Your VCR is buying bread vs baking it yourself. TiVo is more like having a local bread-monger who delivers to your house on a regular basis. You know, they guy who knows you on a first name basis and knows how you like your bread cooked, so he brings a few extra samples that are similar to the other breads you like, but that you wouldn't have known to order if he hadn't suggested them.

Sure it costs more (and $13/mo is a bit steep, imho, but $5 for DTV is a steal), but you get more in return.

Build your own... (5, Informative)

Standmic (769361) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653675)

http://www.byopvr.com/

Re:Build your own... (2, Informative)

Anita Coney (648748) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653687)

I agree. My homebuilt PVR does everything I want without any restrictions. And they're cheap to build and require no monthly fees.

Re:Build your own... (1)

DrEldarion (114072) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653945)

Yeah, but a TiVO looks so much nicer sitting there amongst the other TV equipment than a cheap computer case does... and once you start looking into nicer cases, the case alone will cost more than the price of a new TiVO/ReplayTV.

Re:Build your own... (4, Informative)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653737)

you know I hear this mantra every time we have a Tivo article..... and it's not realistic...

I went down that road, I built a mythbox and a freevo. I fought with them monthly. Then the service provider in the US dries up and forces you to register with them every 3 months with looming promises of having to pay for the right to access it.

I gave up, sold all the equipment and bought a refurbed ReplayTV for $100.00 and have not looked back cince. I can easily get shows off the replay to a computer for burning to DVD or simply having a media server with lots of content. It always works and is worth the $12.95 a month to keep me from fighting with another change in XMLTV packages or other failure,change or waiting for the listing provider to change their mind again.

for 99% of the people out there making your own PVR is not an option. hell for most techno-geeks
it still is not an option.

Re: "cince" (2, Funny)

Dr. Evil (3501) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653888)

Today, a small part of the English language died.

Re:Build your own... (1)

hkb (777908) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653970)

Uhm, it works fine here. You really have to get your hardware "right", here. NVidia video cards, and a WinTV PVR-x50 is highly recommended.

If MythTV isn't your taste, you could always take a look at the SageTV product (www.sage.tv). It's Windows-based, but is very stable, easy to setup, and cheap ~$79, no subscription fee. Plus, you can use your PC for other stuff, while your PVR is displayed on your TV.

Re:Build your own... (1)

beanlover (710167) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653913)

Are there any sites that have software that will run on a TiVo? I have an old Phillips series one and would love to try out some software that runs on my existing TiVo hardware. Warranty is way-expired...so other than the lifetime subscription I have married to the box it would be neat to try something like that out.

I'm a lyrical gangster (1)

eXoXe (157466) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653680)

Tivo, rhymes with Freevo, rhymes with nismo, rhymes with pepto-bism..o.. rhymes with push overs! Glad my SA Explorer 8000 will let me continually do these things. Maybe I need some rhyming help, but at least I got my point across.

Please don't mod me down :(

Fair use (1)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653681)

As long as its still legal for me to record a movie and keep it forever, tivo can keep their restricted-box..

Re:Fair use (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10653730)

Please explain why that is fair use. Thanks.

Betamax case (1)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653843)

It's been decided by the US supreme court that me recording someting that comes into my house, for my own personal, permanent use, is considered legal 'fair use'.

What more explanation does one need?

This might help. (2, Interesting)

Richard Steiner (1585) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653894)

Audio Home Recording Act of 1992 [brouhaha.com]

Section 1008 is interesting:

"Section 1008. Prohibition on certain infringement actions

No action may be brought under this title alleging infringement of copyright based on the manufacture, importation, or distribution of a digital audio recording device, a digital audio recording medium, an analog recording device, or an analog recording medium, or based on the noncommercial use by a consumer of such a device or medium for making digital musical recordings or analog musical recordings. "

They just lost 3 sales. (1)

DAldredge (2353) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653688)

I was going to buy one for my wife and I and a couple for my parents but I will not be doing it now.

Re:They just lost 3 sales. (1)

jxyama (821091) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653965)

really? you think it's an issue with your parents..?

i'm not trying to flame you, but for your parents, ask them if they'd find somethine like a tivo useful, even with the new restrictions. you may find tivo's new policies unacceptable, but that view should not be "forced" onto your parents... no? if you wanted to get a tivo for your parents as a gift, it should be that, a gift. not a chance for you to show off your beliefs or preferences - you should get them what they will find useful. they may not know much about tivo, but i imagine they are smart enough to make their own decisions given the information. and i'm guessing that they will not find these new restrictions too big of a deal and would want the convenience of tivo..?

i'm a mac fan and hate windows and microsoft's corporate attitude. but that didn't stop me from helping my sister pick out a new IBM laptop because she said she felt more comfortable with windows. i have my beliefs, so do others. if others want my help, i try to be as objective as possible and respect their choice.

MythTV (1)

mgandalf (38247) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653707)

Seems MythTV became that much more usefull.

Too Many KneeJerk Responses (5, Insightful)

FortKnox (169099) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653715)

I'm reading too many "Well I'm glad I don't get TiVo" or "This will KILL TiVo."

No, what will kill TiVo is all of television, TV, and sporting leagues suing the pants off of them for providing something that the can prove is illegal (like viewing NFL games outside the specified market area). This is a setup to allow people to share shows amongst TiVos, but making sure they have a legal basis to not get sued.

TiVo has already been hacked (and TiVo doesn't punish for it), so how long do you think it'll be between when TiVo allows program sharing and someone hacks it so you can avoid these new rules?

Re:Too Many KneeJerk Responses (1)

danheskett (178529) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653835)

like viewing NFL games outside the specified market area
That's not illegal! It's an artifical restriction that the media and sports industry setup to maximize profits!

Re:Too Many KneeJerk Responses (3, Insightful)

gcaseye6677 (694805) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653963)

I will never understand why some team owners think that blacking out home games is a good idea. If you can't watch your hometown team play on TV, are you going to all of a sudden decide to blow several hundred dollars to go to the stadium to see the game? I suppose some people are this braindead, but I would think most would say "screw the !" This strategy makes as much sense as the MPAA attempts to ban the VCR. Overall team profits should increase with more exposure as fans tend to buy team merchandise, go to games, watch games on TV which leads to advertising revenue, etc. Hint to team owners, if nobody goes to your games it's probably because your team sucks and the tickets are overpriced.

Re:Too Many KneeJerk Responses (1)

phil reed (626) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653841)

...television, TV, and sporting leagues suing the pants off of them for providing something that the can prove is illegal (like viewing NFL games outside the specified market area).

That's not illegal, it's a violation of the contract the NFL has with the television networks.

Re:Too Many KneeJerk Responses (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10653918)

A contract of which TiVO is not even a part. If the TiVO is able to see the game, that means somebody else is already breaking the contract. Why would anyone expect TiVO to be responsible for upholding a contact they're not a part of, instead of penalizing the people that are violating it?

Re:Too Many KneeJerk Responses (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10653859)

Strange, I'm looking for the law that restricts viewing NFL games outside the specified market area and I can't seem to find it.

Excellent (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10653717)

If software developers followed suit and removed the bloat the way Tivo has, we'd all be better off.

Well done, Tivo.

Re:Excellent (1)

jcrash (516507) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653889)

Removed? Like how their guide is so incredible slow even on a brand new $1000 piece of HDTV hardware?

New Tivo Commercial (3, Funny)

Braingoo (771241) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653731)

TIVO Tv on our terms. Tivo it will let you record any show or program you wish for play back at a later date. (Un less such programs are not suposed to be aired in your location or you paid for them to be viewed only for a limited time. Or the people that made the program want to eventualy sell a realy expensive dvd boxed set in the near future or your mother who can login to your tivo and block you from recording all that nasty pron!)

NBC (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10653736)

NBC is an investor in Tivo. So I'm sure they are just fulfilling their special interests.

Doesn't matter much... (1)

drwtsn32 (674346) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653756)

I would just extract the movies that I wanted to keep indefinitely.

And I'm a real nerd so I don't watch NFL. That's like sports or something.

Ugh (1)

aphexbrett (220057) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653760)

With the commercial skip that ReplayTV has (think chapter skipping on a DVD) I don't know why anyone would want a Tivo.

Re:Ugh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10653972)

Tivo does have a commercial skip that you can activate through an easter egg hack using the remote.

more reason to build your own (1)

m2bord (781676) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653762)

tivo isn't the only game in town and they should recognize that it's easier in the long run to just roll your own. you can get one of those mini-pc's with a pci slot, put in a pvr card (there are many available) from hauppage, ati, or any other vendor, install linux and http://www.mythtv.org/ [mythtv.org] the mythtv software (which i understand doesn't work well with ATI or Creative cards) and begin enjoying your shows. Remember...the more drive space you have the more you can record and if you get a dvd burner into the same box, you may be able to back up your programs for later viewing (may not work on all shows). Tivo? who needs 'em....

probably due to new tivos with dvd-r (4, Insightful)

acomj (20611) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653767)

The new Tivos have a dvd-r. It would cut down on selling of sports dvds if you can just "burn your own" so content makers are going to freak. It still doesn't seem to restrictive since I don't watch pay per view or the NFL.

like this one tivo / burner from pioneer [pioneerburner.com]

They aren't getting their greedy hands... (2, Interesting)

pkx (446643) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653770)

...on my "Sleeper ISO" hacked series 2 DirecTiVo [info]. [linquist.net]

ReplayTV (1)

EvilMagnus (32878) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653775)

I have a ReplayTV. I prefer it to TiVo - with DVArchive I can stream shows to/from my Replay, download them easily to my computer, burn them to DivX and watch them on my $70 DVD player.

I also get 30-sec skip out of the box and no goddamn grinning TV icon that tries to record gay porn for me. :)

Of course, ReplayTV has miniscule marketshare and its parent company is trying to get out of the market. Typical! I love my ReplayTV!

Macrovision (5, Interesting)

St. Arbirix (218306) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653776)

I remember Macrovision.

They're the ones who did that funny trick with DVDs so the screen brightness would flicker which prevented anyone from running the television signal through any device that adhered to a standard.

They're the asshats who slipped that little "suprise" in with Turbo Tax that one year. Appliance rape, I called it.

TiVo should take the moral high road and at least supply some screwdriver-accessible switch which forces the machine to ignore these things they talk of in the article. The lawyer said they weren't expecting Macrovision to Trojan horse TiVo with this, but I don't think he's ever watched his computer sit in the corner and cry while a baby C_DILLA grows inside of it.

Re:Macrovision (1)

HarveyBirdman (627248) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653916)

TiVo should take the moral high road and at least supply some screwdriver-accessible switch which forces the machine to ignore these things

Hardware mods are a bit much to ask of a software patch.

:-)

Just Series2 or Series1 also? (4, Interesting)

Boone^ (151057) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653780)

Series1 hasn't seen a software update in eons, so I'm assuming us early adopters are safe from this? I can't imagine TivoToGo would be supported on Series 1 anyway.

Jesus, don't blame Tivo. (2, Insightful)

Gannoc (210256) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653795)

Blame the NFL, content providers, etc. Do you expect Tivo to say "FUCK YOU WORLD, WE'Z DOING IT OUR WAY!" They'd be sued out of existance.

Who needs TiVo anyway? (1)

bwd234 (806660) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653802)

I have a $50 TV tuner card in my computer hooked up to my cable. I can record any show I want and save it on my HD. Plus the picture is far better on my monitor than on a crappy TV set, so why would I waste my money on TiVo? They can shove it!

Who can blame TiVo? (2, Insightful)

Ralph JH Nader (765522) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653810)

You just know that if TiVo hadn't implemented these restrictions that they'd have trouble with lawyers representing the NFL and the movie industry. It may make it less useful, but it's better than nothing. The real problem is the greed that dominates the entertainment industries and their attempts to jew every last dollar out of the hands of ordinary people. This move sucks, but don't blame TiVo.

Re:Who can blame TiVo? (2, Insightful)

Titusdot Groan (468949) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653967)

... and their attempts to jew every last dollar out ...

Wow, even my rednecked father has stop using this particular turn of phrase ...

Not a big deal (3, Insightful)

WebGangsta (717475) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653822)

So TiVo and the NFL reached an agreement regarding TiVo's planned ability to send fully recorded programs across the country so that the NFL maintains their localized blackouts. How can anyone have a problem with this? It's the same thing that the NFL did with DirecTV when the NFL Sunday Ticket was created.

All the NFL is asking TiVo to do is not make recorded programs available for transfer while that program is still being aired. Once the game is finished, feel free to shoot it over. Of course, that would take hours of bandwidth at current speeds, so it's not really an issue anyway.

I'd rather have companies like TiVo work with the content providers to reach agreements rather than have companies sue each other over supposed 'copyright' violations.

So? (1)

DesertFalcon (670699) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653823)

How long will it take for a hack to come out that fixes this?

I should learn not to try reading comments to make sure I'm not posting something that's already been said. There's no way I can possibly keep up with them :(

accelerating their own death (3, Interesting)

steelerguy (172075) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653830)

Tivo is in big trouble anyway since all the major cable companies are coming out with their own DVR's [sciatl.com] with a pretty small monthly fee. This alone is probably enough to get rid of them in 5 years or so.

Then they go removing features and pretty much pissing off their loyal customer base, the only people they have to keep them going financially. I imagine cable companies will have the same issues with auto deleting pay per view, and no out of market sporting events, but if they never give you that in the first place it won't be so bad. In addition their hardware is going to work on their systems a lot better than adding on a Tivo to your existing cable system.

Bye bye Tivo.

As one of the few Media Center PC Owners (1)

DelawareBoy (757170) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653832)

I'm actually glad I have one, and not Tivo.

Let's see how long it is until Microsoft follows suit. (No pun intended)

Oh well (1)

MrP- (45616) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653847)

I'm planning on getting a TiVo, since I use i watch so much tv (i have a tv tuner card, im watching tv as i type this).. I'm hoping to get a free tivo [dvrs4free.com] (already got my free ipod =P), but if not i'll have to use christmas money on one.

Luckily I don't order pay-per-view or watch football.. but the headline makes it sound like this is in addition to more reductions.. what other features has tivo been removing?

Not a big deal (3, Insightful)

igrp (732252) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653881)

I don't this this is such a big deal. As I understand it - and I might be wrong on this - these limitations only apply to new features (ie. remote access to recorded TV programming). So, I suppose this is basically a CYA maneuver to limit TiVo's liability and to stop costly litigation in its tracks.

Plus, TiVos are indeed pretty hackable. In contrast to other manufacturers (eg. Microsoft put in a lot of effort to make sure the XBox was "unhackable"), TiVo doesn't really seem to mind people modifying their hardware all that much. And there are a lot of people who have "modded" their TiVos, even if it's just to swap out the harddrive for a bigger one. If you really want to permanently record a show, there's really nothing they can do to stop you. All they can do, is make it harder.

Tivo will not go down like ReplayTV (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10653890)

Tivo can play nice with the industry or go the path of ReplayTV and get sued by the whole movie industry.

I won't be buying one (1)

dentar (6540) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653895)

If they're going to give in to corporations instead of their own customers, then my mind is made up!!

This shouldn't be difficult to get around. (3, Interesting)

AlphaWolf_HK (692722) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653906)

Based on what I know about the tivo's design, I think this will be an easy thing to get around.

There are only so many ways that tivo can add tags to tell the difference between pay per views and on demand items so that it knows what it should or shouldn't delete. One way is through attributes stored in the MFS structure, another way is maybe a hidden flag somewhere in the MFS filesystem itself, and probably the least likely method would be to tag the tystream itself.

No matter which of these methods they use, it would be very easy to identify and remove any tags. What would work even better is to patch the tivoapp binary so that it doesn't add these tags in the first place, which is otherwise a hard thing to accomplish, but several people in the tivo hacking scene have done quite well at things like this.

Business vs. Business (5, Insightful)

prisonercx (40652) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653907)

You know, it's funny how this looks like a blow to consumers, when actually it's a blow against other businesses. How much revenue does TiVo and the NFL really think they are going to lose with this technology? This technology, in the consumer space, competes only with those "all games nationwide in a sport" package like DirectTV's NBA League Pass. How many consumers will both a) want to buy that package and b) be technically proficient and financially liquid enough to set up TiVo's around the country to stream all the games to their house? Not too many, entirely too much effort to get around paying ~$200/season.

Where I can see this being used is the sports bar market (for example). You get a bunch of sports bars nationwide which agree to stream each other the games from each market. Now the major cable/dish networks lose the revenue from each of those bars buying a premium sports package. Multiply this by tens of thousands of interested businesses, and it adds up to a significant amount. It seems to me that this is the real issue at hand.

Well, I've owned a Tivo for (5, Insightful)

bob670 (645306) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653910)

about 3.5 years now, I surely couldn't live without it at this point. But I guess the question I have is, who does this really effect? I don't think the average Tivo owner really cares as long as they get what they pay for. And in most cases you are "Paying Per View" for one view of that movie in a certain window, so as long as it's clear you have to watch it by a certain date, what is the issue? Same thing with the NFL, they share revenue based on a fairly complex formula, something like Tivo could really screw that up.

These debates always boil down to those who are willing to pirate and those who aren't, but we can mask it as a "Fair Use" or "Consumer Rights" issue to keep the post count rolling. As far as Tivo goes, I watch a show, I delete it, I don't need to archive it for historical purposes and I have no right to do anything else with it. If it's really great I'll buy it on DVD and if it's like most shows I won't care. I'll bet I am in the majority of Tivo owners on this usage pattern yet people act like this policy somehow infringes on my right to use the device and it's content as described.

I know it's hard for some of you to accept, but not everyone purchases consumer electronics to discover exploits and alternative uses, and most people are willing to accept some limitations for the added convenince that Tivo brings. Most people aren't pirating off ST:DS9 and editing out the commercials for their personal archive or for uploading to usenet. It's hardly a stretch to imagine your downloaded copy of Gigli is time limited and you have no friends, so stop playing that hacked version of Counter Strike Source with the aimbot you just found and watch your damn rental.

a counterpoint to the Tivo will die threads (5, Insightful)

seibed (30057) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653925)

I have a Tivo, I quite like my Tivo and deleting PPV movies and NFL doesn't make a spot of difference to me because I don't watch them and I don't care. I suspect that 95% of consumers out there are the same way, so its only 5% of people that are even going to weigh the decision. I don't think PPV is competing heavily against the "watch it many times" market becuase then you'd just buy the DVD or Rent&Rip, hell there are 1$ DVD rentals everywhere... PPV is way overpriced IMHO anyway.

Heh (1)

hypergreatthing (254983) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653984)

TiVo's lawyer explains

Let me explain. I will not buy a Tivo.

So next we'll see (3, Funny)

unsinged int (561600) | more than 9 years ago | (#10653990)

neutered Aibos?
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