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Ukraine Holds 4th Largest Programmer Population

timothy posted more than 9 years ago | from the it's-the-water dept.

Programming 301

andrewuoft points out this BusinessWeek article on the budding technology sector of Ukraine; the article points out that Ukraine has -- "after the U.S., India, and Russia -- the fourth largest number of computer programmers in the world" and that "Even today, scientific institutes each year churn out some 50,000 science or technology graduates. Not surprisingly, Ukrainians don't see why their country can't become a big player in the global technology market, like India."

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301 comments

Great... (-1, Flamebait)

BJZQ8 (644168) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811053)

ANOTHER place to outsource US jobs!

Re:Great... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811069)

But I thought competition was good? That's what Slashdot told me.

Re:Great... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811087)

On the other hand, it's also ANOTHER place to get experienced programmers to write open-source software like GNU/Linux...

Re:Great... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811124)

In fact, Slashdot ran a recent article about the shortage [slashdot.org] of open-source expertise...

I rolled 6 sixes! (-1, Offtopic)

bestadvocate (816742) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811095)

Maby the US should take it over, holding Ukraine with the middle east gives you border crontrol for ether taking over Europe or Asia.

after all the best way to keep the jobs in the US is to take um all over anyway.

Re:I rolled 6 sixes! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811175)

They have terrorists and/or oil don't they? Hey that just might work!

Re:I rolled 6 sixes! (1)

bestadvocate (816742) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811224)

It doesnt matter, the red already knocked the blue off the West, now all they have to do is moblize.

and like every crappy risk player they are going to spend all their armies taking over stuff they cant hold.

Re:I rolled 6 sixes! (0, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811341)

The US certainly has the military power to take over a lot of countries, but it hasn't done it. Sure, the US invades countries from time to time when there's a perceived threat, or to stop genocide, or to prevent civil war, etc. But in the end, the US never "takes" anything even though it could. The last thing the US took was Kingman Reef [fws.gov] in 1922. There wasn't a war over it. It's an unpopulated 1 sq km land mass in the Pacific Ocean. Most of it is under water.

Re:I rolled 6 sixes! (1)

Guppy06 (410832) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811751)

"But in the end, the US never "takes" anything even though it could."

Except, you know... half of Mexico.

Of course, we only took the unpopulated half, because we didn't want all those Mexicans in our country. The parts that we took that were popluated had to wait until the majority of the people living there (or at least the territorial government) were white and spoke English before they were allowed statehood, kind of like Hawaii only not quite as ugly/blatant.

hah! (0, Offtopic)

KingPunk (800195) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811055)

first post!

Re:hah! (0, Offtopic)

KingPunk (800195) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811064)

bah, i suck. im a slut.
i think im going to make a perl script
that will make me have the 1st post, in EVERY artice, topic.
..i wonder how much bandwidth it'll use. ;x
peace, -kingpunk

Correlation? (5, Funny)

l810c (551591) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811056)

4th largest Geek Population?

Maybe this would explain why there seem to be so many Hot, Available Ukrainian Women [ukrainian-women.net] looking to get out.

Re:Correlation? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811218)

Yeah, are you looking to buy?

Oh, well...Ukrainian Women are known to be... (0, Troll)

ambelamba (771710) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811226)

Loose. Damn loose. Hungarian loose. No wonder why they wanna get the hell out of there. :D

Re:Correlation? (1)

hajihill (755023) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811256)

I was thinking that the correlation would be that the Ukraine would have the fourth highest rate of unemployment in the world....

But some might find this joke in bad taste... like much of Africa. (link) [aneki.com]

No offense intended.

Re:Correlation? (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811350)

Hey, who modded this funny? Have you check that link? (+1 Informative)!

--dhj

This is not serious! (3, Insightful)

Simonetta (207550) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811498)

Should we seriously believe that The Ukraine has more computer programmer productivity and output than:

China - 1.3 billion people and a booming economy with millions of students studying technology?

Korea - where 1/4 of the people have at-home broadband, and like China, has millions of people working in the technology industry?

Taiwan - where nearly everything technological that isn't specifically designed to kill people who don't shop at the Baby Gap is designed, programmed, and manufactured?

Japan - With the world's second largest economy and a world leader in electronic R&D and embedded-systems computers?

I think some second-rate journalist got an all-expenses-paid government tour and spent a lot of time with Hot, Available Ukrainian Brides-to-be
and then wrote up this wild fantasy of Ukrainian computer mastery in order to get invited back on next year's government tour.

We must not take these snow-jobs seriously.

Re:Correlation? (1)

Drakonian (518722) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811731)

Holy shit, those women are hot! Is this stuff for real? If my life is still this pathetic in 10 years...

FP (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811057)

w00t!

Virus Programmers (1)

eh0d is my daddy (825041) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811070)

32% of all viruses come from Ukraine. It's too bad that they can't use their talents for good...

Bunch of Ukranian script kiddies.

P.S. Don't call it "The Ukraine", that makes them angry. Call it "Ukraine". You don't call Europe "the Europe", it is just Europe.

Re:Virus Programmers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811172)

Yes, but we say "the Piedmont" and "the Rockies" and "the Dakotahs" and "the North Slope" to name a few.

Ukrainians telling us how to speak English is just another example of the hyper-sensitive Eastern European inferiority complex.

Re:Virus Programmers (1)

ak3ldama (554026) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811283)

In the case of "the Dakotahs", it is correct to use this reference, since the Dakotas refers to both North and South Dakota. this term "the Dakotas" originates from when the location was a territory known as the Dakota Territory. The name of Dakota Territory came from the large group of Dakota, Lakota, and Nakota Indians from the region. The term "the Dakotas" is fairly accurate, since the general layout, topography, and climate is fairly similar between the two states.

By the way, South Dakota is a big tourist location for a reason, the geography has much to offer, from the rolling planes, to the Badlands (desert), to the Black Hills. (Also of note: The Black Hills hold significant religious value to the Dakota Native Americans.)

more info here: Wikipedia on the term Dakotas [wikipedia.org]

Corruption (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811077)

The Ukraine needs to overcome its heavy post-Soviet corruption first before it can grow tech businesses. (It's doing that, but progress is still needed)

Re:Corruption (4, Informative)

luvirini (753157) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811244)

Well, the fact is, corruption is a matter of fact in large parts of the world.

India is among the quite corrupt contries, like number 90 of 146 in the Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index 2004 http://www.transparency.org/cpi/2004/cpi2004.en.ht ml#cpi2004 [transparency.org]

So corruption it itself does not seem to be able to stop tech-business, though Ukraine is way lower at #122.

Re:Corruption (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811430)

For those reading the table, realize that the lower the rank, the higher the corruption. The score is on a scale of 1 to 10, with countries leaning towards 10 being the least corrupt. Nigeria, with a rank of 144, is one of the most corrupt. Finland, with a rank of 1, is the least corrupt of all according to this data.

In regards to the topic at hand, the Ukraine is a very criminally influenced country. I have a number of contacts in the Ukraine and they're all trying to get out before they drown in the country's corruption. One reason Russian/Ukranian/other Eastern European women are willing to do the "mail order bride" thing is to get out of their respective countries and go somewhere with less criminal activity. A would-be bride said that a rich, successful husband in Russia or the Ukraine doesn't last very long, so she'd rather marry someone stable from the US and live there. It's sad, but it's no different people from Mexico hopping the US-Mexican border to the US for a better life.

Re:Corruption (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811696)

So corruption it itself does not seem to be able to stop tech-business, though Ukraine is way lower at #122.

You realize that the list is in ascending order, right (least corrupt to most)?

Globalization (4, Interesting)

FiReaNGeL (312636) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811084)

With the economical globalization these days, the trend (strategy?) for some countries seem to overspecialize in one specific area (in this case, IT) to outperform competition on a worldwide scale. Risky for sure, but it seems to work right now (at least for India, who reap the profits of investing massively in IT).

Outsource to Other Western Nations (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811273)

Outsourcing to other Western nations is perfectly acceptable since the family of Western nations all share similar notions of environmental protection, consumer safety, workers' rights, etc. This month, the USA is expected to complete a free-trade agreement with Australia. Let's bring Ukraine into the fold.

Let's terminate outsourcing to India and China. Both of these hellholes reject Western culture. Let's terminate the H-1B program.

Any outsourcing that would have gone to India should now go to the Ukraine and Eastern Europe.

Re:Outsource to Other Western Nations (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811317)

Let's terminate outsourcing to India and China. Both of these hellholes reject Western culture. Let's terminate the H-1B program.

Any outsourcing that would have gone to India should now go to the Ukraine and Eastern Europe.

So that when they have enough money, they can put missiles back in Cuba?

Re:Outsource to Other Western Nations (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811604)

Any outsourcing that would have gone to India should now go to the Ukraine and Eastern Europe.

In many US corporations, the middle managers ARE Indian.

That -- and Indian money laundered into the Bush campaign -- is why the jobs keep going east.

Good thing Saudi Arabia's buying all those Treasury Bonds.

Re:Globalization (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811700)

Ukraine having the 4th largest programmer population is like Iraq having the 4th largest army in the world. After the first three, there's a big fucking drop-off!

Quality Not Quantity (5, Insightful)

derEikopf (624124) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811103)

What the future of technology needs more than anything is the reversal of the quantity philosophy. More is not always better.

speak for yourself, object. (2, Insightful)

Man in Spandex (775950) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811121)

more of quantity can turn in this case into more of quality.

We as humans evolve.

A crappy car will remain a crappy car no matter how much type-r stickers you put on it but as individuals who study and gain experience, programmers may not study in anything "outstanding" in the beginning but you never know what path they will take.

Re:speak for yourself, object. (5, Insightful)

derEikopf (624124) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811217)

Indeed, that is where people like Linus Torvalds make an odds-defying explosion into mainstream computing. However, there is more to my statement than just programmer population. Quality also refers to program quality. Not half-assed buggy software that was hurriedly released because of a dealine, and then half-assed patches and updates that were also released on a deadline.

Re:speak for yourself, object. (1)

antime (739998) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811674)

Based on personal experience I take that as an argument for outsourcing.

A Message From PAACA (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811234)

(People Against Akward Car Analogies)

What the fuck do cars, human evolution, and type R stickers have to do with the price of eggs in russia?! Not everything is analogous to a car. Give it up!

Re:A Message From PAACA (2, Funny)

deimtee (762122) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811720)

Well, think of it like this - some analogies are like sports cars fast, sleek, expensive and to the point. The ones you want to avoid are the SUVs, big, clunky and wasteful of space.

Re:Quality Not Quantity (2, Funny)

yobbo (324595) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811209)

And it's entirely possible that feeding nuclear radiation into people's skulls has breeded a race of super programmers.

Re:Quality Not Quantity (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811344)

And it's entirely possible that feeding nuclear radiation into people's skulls has breeded a race of super programmers.

I'd say its bred a generation of people unable to conjugate a verb.

Re:Quality Not Quantity (3, Funny)

plopez (54068) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811532)

I believe it was Stalin who said 'Quantity has a quality all its own'. How that applies to IT (vs military might), I am not sure but it seeems an appropriate qoute.

hold on (2, Interesting)

DNS-and-BIND (461968) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811116)

I wouldn't think that emulating India is really the way to go. The entire economic output of India is less than the state of Illinois. In addition, India's call center business is almost 100% U.S. customers. Ukraine has some, ahem, moral issues that make it politically difficult for American companies to outsource there.

Re:hold on (2, Insightful)

bestadvocate (816742) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811145)

Thats the real problem with outsourcing jobs anyway.
the basic inequality of rights and responcebility

wouldent it be nice if we held international corporations to provide the same level of economic and humanitarian funding outside the country, and taxed the pajamas out of importers that don't

bye bye wallmart :*(

Re:hold on (2, Insightful)

BobaFett (93158) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811345)

wouldent it be nice if we held international corporations to provide the same level of economic and humanitarian funding outside the country, and taxed the pajamas out of importers that don't

Are you prepared to pay the significantly higher price for the goods you can by today cheap precisely because the companies do not provide the same level of funding outside the country?

I have great respect for people who argue for equal wages and labor conditions and then live by their ideals (which means their level of life is significantly lower than what they could afford otherwise). I may not agree with their ideas, but I respect them. Hypocrites who yak about terrible working conditions in the 3rd world and then go by chineese t-shirts on sale get no respect from me.

Re:hold on (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811147)

A lot of huge countries would kill to have the economy of Illinois.

Shit, in 4 years maybe all of America will be wishing they could have that.

Re:hold on (2, Insightful)

arbi (704462) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811148)

India will always have a natural advantage over countries like Russia and Ukraine in terms of American IT outsourcing because they can speak English.

Re:hold on (1, Funny)

mnmn (145599) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811242)

They can?

Re:hold on (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811260)

Not exactly sure what he means by that, India has loads of different languages, but a big part of India (West, I think) does use English as its' primary language dating back to the British empire. A lot of Indians in these certain regions are deeply immersed in British culture, which is a large amount of Indians who move to the UK settle in easily, because back home they watched/played the same sports, went to the pub and were Christian etc.

Something that does perplex me about call centres, though, is that a lot of these Indians, though they do speak english, are extremely difficult to understand, especially bad for things such as IT support where the customer may not even know the most commonly used IT-lingo, let alone a very deep accent on top of that.

Re:hold on (2, Insightful)

tftp (111690) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811249)

Is there any law of physics that stops everyone else from learning English? If you don't know already, Indian English is not any better than Polish English, for example. Indians often use a writing style totally alien to western literature and to western readers.

Re:hold on (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811254)

I actually prefer the Eastern European Engrish to the Indian Engrish, myself. The accent is more understandable.

Re:hold on (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811543)

English is descended from Indo-European languages (Latin and High-German) and Sanskrit is the archetypical Indo-European language, at the very
bottom of the tree from which all other Indo-European languages come from. Sanskrit is techincally called "Proto Indo Aryan (PIA)".

So, yes, being Aryans (by definition), Indians certainly can speak English better than non
Indo-Eurpean peoples.

Re:hold on (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811229)

Ukraine has some, ahem, moral issues that make it politically difficult for American companies to outsource there.

So what!? Large multinational companies are amoral in nature, they don't give a shit about "moral issues", only about profit and the bottom line.

Re:hold on (5, Funny)

eobanb (823187) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811281)

I wouldn't think that emulating India is really the way to go

Yah, they should just run it natively.

Re:hold on (1)

dbIII (701233) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811406)

India's call center business is almost 100% U.S. customers
Wrong. There was a good docementary a few years ago that showed call centre workers keeping track of London weather and english football scores so that they could better relate to customers.

Don't blame India for the actions of clueless American Managers who have given away the farm.

Small typo (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811125)

Both the submitter and the FA author seem to have misspelled "Elbonia."

more to it (4, Interesting)

Quixote (154172) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811142)

There's more to becoming a global player than just the number of programmers. The infrastructure is important: not only the physical infrastructure like roads, trains and powerlines, but also the governmental infrastructure (like courts, government offices, etc.). Plus, a stable government (not a one-man show like in many other places) is necessary: money flees uncertainty.

It is unfortunate, but Ukraine has gained notoriety for being the base of a lot of the "east european bride" scammers. Plus, the general perceived lawlessness of the fUSSR republics is not conducive to investment. Face it: post communism, there were a lot of problems with foreign partners of Russian businessmen being bumped off and strong-armed.

Things may be different now, but a good reputation takes time to develop.

As far as India is concerned: there are many Indians in high places in tech companies in the US, and the natual tendency is for them to favor India (a known commodity, to them) for outsourcing their operations.

Not exactly (3, Insightful)

a.different.perspect (817184) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811215)

The infrastructure is important: not only the physical infrastructure like roads, trains and powerlines, but also the governmental infrastructure (like courts, government offices, etc.). Plus, a stable government (not a one-man show like in many other places) is necessary: money flees uncertainty.

While generally your comment makes sense, I take issue with the last statement. Money doesn't flee uncertainty. It would be far more correct to say it flees the certainty of unprofitability and the certainty of unstable infrastructure and government and an arbitrary court system, like in Indonesia for example. Investment pours into uncertain economies like Russia after the end of the Cold War because they promise change, and change is the essence of growth.

Article text in case someone actually reads it (5, Informative)

a.different.perspect (817184) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811143)

and the server goes down.

Building The Muscle To Be A Tech Player

Ukraine has a bunch of cornfields, a bunch of old steel mills, and not much else. Right? Well, Ukraine also has a budding technology sector, and -- after the U.S., India, and Russia -- the fourth largest number of computer programmers in the world. It was a main center of the Soviet programming industry. The first computer built in continental Europe was made in Ukraine in 1951. Even today, scientific institutes each year churn out some 50,000 science or technology graduates. Not surprisingly, Ukrainians don't see why their country can't become a big player in the global technology market, like India. "We want Ukraine to become a technological country again, not just a country with agriculture and tank production," says Yuri Sivitsky, chairman of Softline, one of Ukraine's largest software producers.

What are the chances? While Ukraine isn't likely ever to rival India, it certainly has the potential to become a player. Just look at Softline. Founded by mathematicians in 1995, it has 500 employees, up from a dozen in 1998. Revenues are set to hit $10 million this year, up 70% from 2003. Its clients include Ingersoll-Rand Co. (IR ) and Hugo Boss.

The offshore programming industry, although small, is growing fast. According to Market-Visio, a research firm in Moscow, Ukraine's software exports will grow 43% this year to $100 million. Around 10,000 programmers are employed in the industry, working for customers such as Boeing (BA ), DaimlerChrysler (DCX ), General Electric (GE ), Citibank (C ), and NASA. Much of the work is customized business software. But gaming is also growing. Kvasar-Micro, Ukraine's largest info tech company, recently landed an order to develop a computer game for mobile handsets.

Ukraine's main selling point is the quality of its mathematical education. Another is cheap labor. An average programmer in Ukraine earns $500 a month, not quite as low as India, but half the level in Moscow and a fraction of programming salaries in the West. But the edge Ukraine gets from high education and low wages is offset by other factors. Around 90% of all software on sale in Ukraine is pirated, so domestic makers can't get the revenue they need to grow. Other problems are a lack of business skills, venture finance, and government support. But things are looking up. Management skills are improving as Ukrainians gain Western experience and earn MBAs. The government is mulling tax incentives for tech investment and starting to tighten piracy laws.

Some of the biggest names in the global technology industry have started to wake up to Ukraine's potential. "Ukraine is building up quickly," says Gerard J. Kleisterlee, CEO of Dutch electronics giant Royal Philips Electronics (PHG ), which makes an array of high-tech goods there. Flextronics International Ltd. (FLEX ), a Singapore electronics powerhouse, recently set up a software design lab in Ukraine, and CEO Michael E. Marks is enthusiastic about the nation's potential as an engineering and design power. If he's right, Ukraine has a digital future.

Ooooh! Can they type like Borris from Goldeneye!? (0, Flamebait)

spankey51 (804888) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811156)

That'd be sooo cool!!! An entire nation of hackers, typing with one hand (faster than I can type) whilst the other twiddles a ballpoint-grenade... Cool...

soviet russia (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811161)

In soviet russia we had more programmers than bolsheviks!

I'm shocked, so shocked. (4, Interesting)

loraksus (171574) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811164)

Not surprisingly, Ukrainians don't see why their country can't become a big player in the global technology market, like India."

Because of the massive amounts of corruption at all levels of government? Organized crime bosses who refuse to let companies set up shop without bribes?

Re:I'm shocked, so shocked. (2, Funny)

Daniel832US (530981) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811235)

Organized crime bosses who refuse to let companies set up shop without bribes?
But they'll give you a better exchange rate US Dollars-->Hryvnia than the banks...

So... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811189)

So is Elbonia 3rd or 5th?

So THAT explains it! (0, Offtopic)

neotuli (797361) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811201)

I'm a quarter Ukranian!

Re:So THAT explains it! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811237)

yeah it also means you 4 times worse of for getting a woman, unless you want to buy from from the Ukraine.

Re:So THAT explains it! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811269)

It has always bitten my logic why quarter-somethings make so much fuss than the full. Its in all aspects, look at the quarter-backs.

by the way the president who isn't even 1/4 - smart makes the most fuss in the world.

Ukrainian programmers (5, Interesting)

slavik1337 (705019) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811223)

the next Doom3/HL2/Far Cry killer that THQ will publish next year, STALKER: SHadow of Chernobyl is developed by a Ukrainian company called GSC gameworld. They also developed Firestarter if you played it :)

Re:Ukrainian programmers (1)

nacturation (646836) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811363)

They also developed Firestarter if you played it.

And if I didn't play it, does that mean they didn't necessarily develop it?

dont underestimate... (4, Interesting)

Jimmy The Tulip (770323) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811252)

dont underestimate about the upcoming rivals like ireland and china. who can offer cheap outsourcing than india. but i guess software-outsourcing industry will take 2-3 years more to mature well... and to decide where to put money.

Puttin' on the Ritz (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811276)

If you're blue and you don't know where to go to
why don't you go where fashion sits,
Puttin' on the ritz.

Different types who wear a day coat, pants with stripes
and cutaway coat, perfect fits,
Puttin' on the ritz.

Dressed up like a million dollar trouper
Trying hard to look like Gary Cooper (super duper)

Come let's mix where Rockefellers walk with sticks
or "umberellas" in their mitts,
Puttin' on the ritz.

Have you seen the well-to-do up and down Park Avenue
On that famous thoroughfare with their noses in the air
High hats and Arrow collars white spats and lots of dollars
Spending every dime for a wonderful time

If you're blue and you don't know where to go to
why don't you go where fashion sits,
Puttin' on the ritz.
Puttin' on the ritz.
Puttin' on the ritz.

Ukraine Weak! (0)

brocktune (512373) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811303)

"Ha ha, the Ukraine. Do you know what the Ukraine is? It's a sitting duck. A road apple, Newman. The Ukraine is weak. It's feeble. I think it's time to put the hurt on the Ukraine."

Classic Seinfeld (2, Funny)

cdsr (791348) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811314)

[Kramer and Newman are playing Risk...] Newman: I'm not beaten yet. I still have armies in the Ukraine. Kramer: Ha ha, the Ukraine. Do you know what the Ukraine is? It's a sitting duck. A road apple, Newman. The Ukraine is weak. It's feeble. I think it's time to put the hurt on the Ukraine. Ukrainian: I come from Ukraine. You not say Ukraine weak. Kramer: Yeah, well we're playing a game here, pal. Ukrainian: Ukraine is game to you?! Howbout I take your little board and smash it!! The Ukrainian pounds the game board, destroying it and sending army pieces flying.

Well.. (0, Troll)

netrat (104221) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811318)

Wellsir,

The underlying cause of this statistic can be resolved by employing the following simple thought experiment:

Well, what the fuck else are you going to do in fucking Ukraine?

ASK SLASHDOT: What language to learn (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811390)

I need to pick up a foreign language elective. Should I learn Russian, Ukrainian, German, or another? (note: not French, Spanish, or Italian. I hate everyone who speaks those)

Re:ASK SLASHDOT: What language to learn (0, Offtopic)

Simonetta (207550) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811657)

If you're American, then you should learn Spanish because it's your countrie's second language.

If you're Canadian, then you should learn French because it's your countrie's second language.

If you are only interested in getting the college elective requirement satisfied, then go with French or Spanish because half of the words are the same as in English. German has a lot of simple words that are the same as English, but it gets really difficult after the first semester.

Any other language is far too much a pain in the ass to fool with. There will always be someone around that knows some English if you go to these places.

If you're a young male American, then whatever you do, don't study Arabic! You'll be the first one drafted after all the National Guard 35-year-old, weekend-warriors, '$150 extra a month and one weekend playing Rambo in the woods' people are returned home from their 'service' in the never-to-end Iraqi War.

All in all, take French. Even if you hate the French, it's still an easy language to study in order to get the college elective requirement done with. Second best choice would be Spanish, because you'll actually be able to talk to people after college. It will be real handy if there are no jobs when you get out of college and have to go work at the Burger King. Or want to go someplace really cheap to live that's warm and doesn't have psychotic police always shaking you down.

Re:ASK SLASHDOT: What language to learn (2, Informative)

vipw (228) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811675)

Everyone in Ukraine speaks Russian, many of them don't speak Ukrainian; this is because the Ukrainian language was surpressed during the Soviet era. So learning Russian makes much more sense especially because you can speak it in Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, and it's also fairly well known in many of the former Soviet satellites. Knowing it will also give a big head start for learning any of the Slavic languages. However, it's extremely difficult to learn, from my limited experience studying it.

German is a good language to know in Europe, but it's usefulness doesn't go much beyond the German speaking countries. You might also want to consider Portuguese, knowing it would be useful for learning any of the romance languages later.

Germany? (1)

SphericalCrusher (739397) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811394)

Wow. I really expected Germany to be on that list at least. After all, we do hear about most virus writers coming from this country, as well as the hackers they have.

incorrect assumption (2, Insightful)

Kohath (38547) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811429)

Ukrainians don't see why their country can't become a big player in the global technology market, like India."

Because "programming" isn't the key factor in whether your nation is a "big player" in the global technology market. It is a factor, but it's a ways down the list.

Ukranian guy won a software competition (5, Interesting)

AndreyFilippov (550131) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811442)

Last winter I've got an idea of trying a software competition to develop a video streamer for the network cameras developed by Elphel [slashdot.org] (both software and hardware are GPL'ed). I decided to try Russian software developers (I'm Russian myself) so I wrote an article in a Russian online magazine "Computerra" and offered a $3000 prize for the best streamer to use with the camera (the code was to retain author's copyright and be released under GNU/GPL). I did not expect many participants and thought I'l sacrifice 3 cameras. But it turned different and I've sent out 9 of them - 4 to Russia, 3 - to Ukraine, 1 - to Germany and 1 to India (the article was in Russian - that restricted participants to Russian-reading).

Of those 9 participants 6 reached the finish line and the winner is Ukrainian Alexander Melichenko. What amazed me was that I've got the first version of his steamer in just a couple weeks after the announcement _before_ he received the hardware! Hi used my online camera to download his application over the Internet and made it working. And the camera uses Axis ETRAX100LX CPU - something he never programmed before.

All that software is now on our Sourceforge project page - https://sourceforge.net/projects/elphel [sourceforge.net].

Re:Ukranian guy won a software competition (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811504)

How much does that camera cost?

Thanks in advance.

Re:Ukranian guy won a software competition (1)

AndreyFilippov (550131) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811602)

We sell them now for $800 (+lens+power supply). There is also a $100/camera discount for those who are going to develop software to work in/with the camera and release it under GNU/GPL or compatible license.

Obligatory joke (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811495)

Was the percentage inverted when they were part of Soviet Russia?

Contradicting the popular opinion (4, Insightful)

DataDragon (693231) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811501)

I've just gotten done reading the initial reaction of trolls and jokes about this.

Ukraine does have quality engineers, does have better economics and less corruption than other CIS countries, and has been a considerable supporter of US interests (e.g., they dropped one of the highest levels of troops into Iraq for support. Even though, honestly, a country like that couldn't afford large military action, they did so anyway and I might add- with a level of political push considerably lower than others.)

They are a society with European heritage, a large number of the population understands English, German, French, Italian, etc.) and for most Americans travelling to a typical "outsource" destination, Ukraine is both a familiar and not-so-culture-shocking destination (Compared, say, to China or India, for most Americans)

I cannot say they don't have drawbacks, but I've researched the area heavilly and found that the people are much like the USA glory days -- preferring "Handles" and such, for fun mostly, and their display of individual pride. Here in old Silicon Valley, I'm corporate Borg. Getting sick of it.

The organized crime aspects, well, I've had many discussions about that as well-- software isn't really their target, though. In most cases, its usually "competition" that drives the hostilities, and likewise, the vast majority of such cases are non-violent... just annoying (phone turned off, electricity cut, etc.) Like anywhere in the world, if you don't want trouble, don't start trouble. Respect goes a long way in those cultures.

Personally, I'd jump at the chance to go to Ukraine myself. I think it would be rewarding and fun to help cultivate not only the economic flow, but to work with the people there.

For those who are more politically inclined about how the Ukrainian air is going, the present Presidential Elections in Ukraine are showing a huge outpouring of support for the new candidate that wishes to bring Ukraine into the EEC.

There aren't that many CIS countries that can say they are trying quite as hard to embrace the Westernized world by cooperation and with as little grandstanding as Ukraine is doing.

Anyway, they aren't so bad: Wikkkipedia on Ukraine [wikipedia.org] and they can ROCK [wikipedia.org] too!

Peace out. :)

Re:Contradicting the popular opinion (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811570)

They are a society with European heritage, a large number of the population understands English, German, French, Italian, etc.) and for most Americans travelling to a typical "outsource" destination, Ukraine is both a familiar and not-so-culture-shocking destination (Compared, say, to China or India, for most Americans)

Really ? Are Ukranians even Aryan ? Most of the 500 million plus north indians are Aryan (by definition), whose Aryan Hindu religion defines and uses the holy symbols of swastika, shubhtika, laltika etc. (all of which are Hindi words). There was a reason why the Nazis spoke Hindi on purpose and adopted Hindu symbols on purpose (for example, the german word for swastika is hakenkreuz (hooked cross), yet the nazis chose to speak in Hindi).

India has the largest number of employed programer (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10811522)

US may have the largest number of programmer, but I think India has the largest number of employed programmers.

Lots of pascal in Eastern Europe (2, Interesting)

cold fjord (826450) | more than 9 years ago | (#10811582)


I've gotten the impression that there is lots of pascal development still going on in Easter Europe, including turbo. That seems to be something of a dying / lost art in the US. I wonder if there is a viable business in maintaining / updating pascal code.
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