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LAMP Grid Application Server, No More J2EE

michael posted more than 9 years ago | from the corporate-duct-tape dept.

Linux 615

An anonymous reader writes "Check out this blog entry in Loosely Coupled about ActiveGrid's new open source Grid Application Server based on the LAMP (Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP/Python/Perl) stack. Not to start another PHP vs. Java flame war, but it looks like LAMP is starting to grow up, and that it is much better suited for next generation applications than J2EE."

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yeah (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10886716)

FROSTY PIST!!

thats fine (1)

essreenim (647659) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886727)

except I way prefer J2EE / JBoss / Jakarta etc to PHP anyday......

mirrordot not quick enough (1)

odyrithm (461343) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886721)

so how about google cache:

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:AXRoWhcH5UIJ: ww w.looselycoupled.com/blog/lc00aa00074.html+lc00aa0 0074.html&hl=en

Re:mirrordot not quick enough (4, Informative)

Alioth (221270) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886734)

Slashdot tends to put spurious spaces in long URLs making them useless. Please enclose them with the URL tag (note under the Comment text box, it tells you how to do this - just <URL:http://some.link.com/foo>

Example:
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:AXRoWhcH5UIJ:ww w.looselycoupled.com/blog/lc00aa00074.html+lc00aa0 0074.html&hl=en [66.102.9.104]

Re:mirrordot not quick enough (2, Informative)

buro9 (633210) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886808)

The spaces aren't spurious.

They are there to prevent trolls from stretching the width of the page by inserting silly long strings of text that lack breaks.

Slash code adds spaces, and that enables the text to wrap, meaning you don't get an ugly and ill-behaving website.

The point is... Add the tag or make it HTML formatted to make Slash know that it is a URL and to not only hyperlink it, but not to break it either in the hyperlink (but still in the render as we still don't want wide pages).

Re:mirrordot not quick enough (1)

Eythian (552130) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886735)

Google cache linkified [66.102.9.104]

Re:mirrordot not quick enough (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10886844)

The problem is it is now hanging on various non-cached page elements...

Here is the google cache of just the text of the article [216.239.57.104] , if you don't require the pretty formatting.

In which world? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10886722)

Not to start another PHP vs. Java flame war, but it looks like LAMP is starting to grow up, and that it is much better suited for next generation applications than J2EE.

What the hell do you base that peice of tripe on? Why lets compare an incomplete system cobled together on top of PHP to a mature Java based solution which is currently being used in hundreds of thousands of enterprise sites daily throughout the world. Yeah, I can see how LAMP just kicks J2EE's ass on that one.

Seriously, overhype much?

Re:In which world? (1)

odyrithm (461343) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886738)

incomplete system cobled together on top of PHP

What the hell do you base that peice of tripe on? :P

Re:In which world? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10886748)

While I agree with your comments, I don't think there are "hundreds of thousands" of J2EE enterprise sites. A few thousand maybe.

Any one have any figures?

Re:In which world? (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10886764)

Begun this flame war has.

Re:In which world? (1)

BJH (11355) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886928)

Foresee can I its end not.

Re:In which world? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10886931)

Oh, PKP on this PHP
For off it pisses me.
A further pox on J2EE,
May a python strangle ye.

"Not to start another flamewar BUT..." (5, Funny)

rleyton (14248) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886724)

...LAMP is much better suited for next generation applications than J2EE?

Not provocative at all that. No. Not in the slightest.

I'm sure the flamewar that no doubt follows is merely a figment of our collective imaginations.

Re:"Not to start another flamewar BUT..." (1)

krymsin01 (700838) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886732)

Psh, I write backends in ASSEMBLY. Java/PHP/Perl/Python suck.

Re:"Not to start another flamewar BUT..." (2, Funny)

timbloid (208531) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886736)

It's the Slashdot equivalent of saying "No offense" after doubting someone's parentage to their face ;)

Summary (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10886730)

To summarize TFA:
"Here is a new application server, that is not really an application server, but that does not matter as noone really needs an application server"

- Frist psot

What the? (5, Funny)

Prophetic_Truth (822032) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886731)

Not to start another PHP vs. Java flame war, but it looks like LAMP is starting to grow up, and that it is much better suited for next generation applications than J2EE."

Thats like me saying, "Not to offend you, but check out goatse.cx!"

ITS JUST NOT POSSIBLE TO HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!

Re:What the? (1, Informative)

dylain (816413) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886775)

Who said goatse was offensive? Philistine.

Re:What the? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10886877)

Actully, the only people that're offended by goatse.cx now are people that're offended due to censorship...

Re:What the? (4, Insightful)

IO ERROR (128968) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886879)

Not to offend you, but check out mysql.com!

LAMP is great for what it does, but MySQL has no place in the enterprise. There's way too much important stuff that it lacks. I'm sure the nice folks who run /. can tell you of their many misadventures with MySQL, if they chose to...

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go find my asbestos suit.

Interesting (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10886733)

Could not RTFA ... site is jammed...
But I guess to each his own. Only time will tell which architecture was worth its own salt.

Meanwhile, I do confess that I have more experience with a LAMP stack, which IMHO is easier to install and develop on.

Your Opinion Will Vary

Let me get this straight (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10886742)

So you are basically saying: Throw more hardware at an inherently slow platform (LAMP) than to use highly optimized J2EE-servers with s state-of-the-art hotspot compiler?

Re:Let me get this straight (1)

jedidiah (1196) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886754)

You are simply on crack.

In this discussion, it is what you are shilling that is the inherently slow platform.

Re:Let me get this straight (1)

Tim C (15259) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886774)

Well, I write web-based applications in J2EE for a living, and we have no problems with it being an "inherently slow platform".

Re:Let me get this straight (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10886834)

Well maybe if you used something other than J2EE than you'd see a difference.

J2EE isn't inherrently slow, just inherrently bloated and over engineered.

New /. business model? (4, Insightful)

dr_d_19 (206418) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886751)

Seriously, is the flame war the new source if income? I mean, it sure increases the number of banner views. Let's report on a new emacs-version, citing it as "far less potent than the newer VI. also notepad K1CK$ aSS".

The War on Flame (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10886791)

are we going to win this one too? Just like we have with the War on Terrorism, War on Drugs, etc.

Re:The War on Flame (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10886820)

Everyone knows that Bush is going to make you all use Java. You lost your chance to have a good alternative in John Kerry who would have supported your PHP/Perl/Python. But, NoOOOooOOOo: Abortions and anal sex are more important that CODING!

Where to go ? (4, Interesting)

KingRamsis (595828) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886755)

Slashdotters help me with this; on the right I have an over-engineered J2EE with a dozen of work arounds that are over hyped like EJB facades and dozens of frameworks that are difficult to learn and slow (..and kinky, every one and their mom developed a framework), and there are no free (as in beer) quality servers (I know JBoss but good luck without the documentation), on the extreme left I have LAMP, a loosely coupled system, PHP is popular but lets admit it is an ugly hack just looking at PHP5 reconfirms my believe that PHP didn't handle it fast growth properly, in the middle there is Microsoft which I hate and don't want to consider., I want a decent middle ware, that is cross platform, fast, and well documented, free as in beer (and preferably as in speech also).

Re:Where to go ? (5, Insightful)

Enygma42 (301776) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886797)

Java is well suited for middle-ware too. You don't have to install a big heavy duty J2EE server and enterprise level DB server. Tomcat & MySQL does the job just fine for smaller operations.
Take a look at O'Reillys "Better, Faster, Lighter Java"
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/bfljava/

IMHO Java scales very well, from small prototype projects right up to enterprise level apps. PHP is fine for the smaller stuff but I'd rather poke my eyes out with a white hot needle than develop and enterprise app with it.

Re:Where to go ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10886823)

JBoss is extremely easy to set up! Who the hell needs the documentation? It is just a bonus for "dummies".

J2EE != EJB (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10886848)

Do you need all those EJBs? What for? In some environments it makes sense to use EJBs but in most Servlet Container + POJOs is a better and simpler way to go, IMO.

Consider replacing your EJBs with POJOs. Should not be a difficult task.

Re:Where to go ? (4, Insightful)

LarsWestergren (9033) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886864)

Slashdotters help me with this;

Allright then...

and there are no free (as in beer) quality servers

Apache Tomcat.

(..and kinky, every one and their mom developed a framework)

Doesn't mean you have to use them all.

I want a decent middle ware, that is cross platform, fast, and well documented, free as in beer (and preferably as in speech also).

That's Java.

he said quality servers (nt) (1)

muyuubyou (621373) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886902)

(nt stands for no-text)

Re:Where to go ? (1)

Kingpin (40003) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886865)

If you don't need EJBs (which you obviously don't as you mention PHP as a viable alternative to J2EE), then stick to Tomcat or Resin. The servlet API is as elegant as any. Make your own stuff instead of using available frameworks if that's what works for you.

Plone. Zope. Python. (1)

hummassa (157160) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886870)

There you have it. Enjoy.

Re:Where to go ? (1)

daBass (56811) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886873)

JBoss is not a quality server, with or without docs. If you are doing a free project, orionserver.com is not only free to use, it probably is the best J2EE server, period.

As for all the frame works: stay away from them. Use XDoclet to automate your EJB generation (bit of a learning curve) and the incredibly simple SiteMesh to make layout a bit easier if you are doing a web app.

That's it, stay away from frameworks and you are laughing at how easy J2EE really is to develop in.

Re:Where to go ? (1)

timbloid (208531) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886921)

> JBoss is not a quality server, with or without docs.

Or apparently, justification...

Re:Where to go ? (3, Interesting)

CountBrass (590228) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886940)

You do realise that J2EE is not a synonym for EJB don't you? And that xdoclet is one of the worst villains when it comes to meta-data hell?

Do yourself a favour, stick with J2EE, dump that p-o-s EJB and use Hibernate [hibernate.org] and Spring [springframework.org] and you'll do fine: and be amazed how much you can achieve if you don't tie yourself to the EJB dead horse. Seriously: you'll thank me.

Use Lisp (4, Interesting)

RAMMS+EIN (578166) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886874)

Use Lisp. Seriously. It's one of the oldest languages out there, but it has features that other languages can only dream of (in fact, when other languages improve, they almost invariably get closer to Lisp).

The language is well-documented. Implementations range from simple interpreters to complex, optimizing compilers (they are on par with C, and sometimes outperform it). It has packages for many purposes, enough to implement Yahoo! Store at any rate.

People complain about the parentheses (some say LISP is short for Lots of Irritating Superfluous Parentheses). That's a valid point. In C syntax, at least there's variation. Besides parentheses there are curly braces, straight brackets, commas, semicolons, etc. Seriously, the parentheses make for a very simple and consistent syntax.

Lisp allows you to program in whichever paradigm suits you best (pick the right one for the task at hand). Functional, object oriented, imperative, it's all there. It's macro system is so powerful it lets you basically generate programs, rather than writing them. Add garbage collection, higher order functions, dynamic typing (although static typing can be used for performance), arbitrary precision arithmetic (integers are not limited to 32 bits), multiple inheritance, and tail call optimization (recursion in constant space), and you have a language that blows all others out of the water.

Why does nobody use it? Fear, uncertainty and doubt. People think it died with AI. People think its old, so it won't be up to modern tasks. People can't get over the parentheses. The boss won't approve it. Nobody else uses it, so it's hard to get support. Any number of reasons.

Re:Use Lisp (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10886897)

Why does nobody use it? Fear, uncertainty and doubt. [...] People can't get over the parentheses. The boss won't approve it. Nobody else uses it, so it's hard to get support.

You know, I think those were all pretty valid reasons. ;-)

Re:Where to go ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10886876)

Zope v2 with Plone is quite nice, and the new ZopeX3 is really neat, but no compatible Plone at the moment.

Re:Where to go ? (1)

Erik from Breda (244388) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886934)

Go to Erlang [erlang.org] . It is intended for robust and concurrent (as in webserver) applications. Use yaws [hyber.org] as your webserver.
Erlang is free as in beer and in speech. It comes with a distributed database, CORBA and many other goodies.
Everyone I know that tried it, liked it and prefered it over Java and PHP. The participants on the Erlang mailing lists are very supportive, too.

Re:Where to go ? (3, Insightful)

Eric Savage (28245) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886938)

Your assessment is unfortunately a common one. Class, repeat after me, J2EE does not mean you have to use EJB. The "dozens of frameworks" is a growing problem, caused by picking bad/inappropriate ones and/or weak architectural management.

In my experience, as a developer and as a web user, a simple non-EJB java webapp running a relatively mature framework (or not), on something like Resin is capable of tremendous performance, but I'll state that as opinion to try and avoid baiting some PHP flametard into posting how many views his anime forum can handle.

If you are developing for something that isn't going on a server you run, with a nice simple Java webapp all of a sudden you (or more often someone else) can choose your OS (Windows, Mac, Linux, Solaris, etc), your DB server (MySQL, PostreSQL, Oracle, etc), AND your web server (Apache, IIS, none, etc). Thats something that MSFT and LAMP-heads don't offer (without compromising their acronym) and something that client IT departments will very much appreciate. A "pure" admin (i.e. one who doesn't consider him/herself a developer), HATES being told by some outside developer to patch their systems, or run something they don't know or don't like.

Get a fucking grip (2, Insightful)

Timesprout (579035) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886765)

Some muppet posts a blog and immediately hundreds of millions of dollars investment and countless man hours of work on a mature, strongly adopted platform become irrevelevant. This is pure flamebait.

The only thing this indicates to me is that Grid/LAMP is going to struggle to gain acceptance in the enterprise because it proponents are idiots.

Re:Get a fucking grip (1)

timbloid (208531) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886796)

I'm glad I don't have mod points, as I'd have a hard choice deciding between Funny and Insightful ;)

Re:Get a fucking grip (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10886806)

Mod grandparent post +1.5 Funsightful!

Re:Get a fucking grip (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10886825)

Welcome to Slashdot, were a sad teenager with a laptop can register a SourceForge project and declare that he's going to take over the world within 12 months, and the mindless idiots which infest this place eat it up. I wouldn't be surprised if some fanboy hasn't already rushed off to draft a memo to his boss on why they need to dump their J2EE platform right now in favour of Grid/LAMP. He read it on Slashdot, it must be true. Look, it even has a SourceForge project page!

No one needs to do the hard work any more, oh now. Just come up with any old idea and the world is yours. The implementation is a mere derail.

I blame Gentoo myself. It's turned a bunch of clueless but previously harmless idiots into a bunch of clueless but deluded "hackers" who think that copying someone elses CFLAGS from a forum post makes them a compiler engineer and Open Source Guru. Bah.

Re:Get a fucking grip (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10886861)

Ha ha! Class!!!

I'm not a lover of J2EE but I think you've hit the nail squarely on the head.

Re:Get a fucking grip (1)

BJH (11355) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886889)

And thus flamefests breed new flamefests.

Please don't bring the Gentoo riceboys into it - next thing you know, we'll have the NRA gun-nuts in here with us.

Re:Get a fucking grip (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10886914)

The Gentoy ricers are nice squishy targets and I'm in a bad mood. I need to draw them out of the bushes.

For you, look on the bright side. It could have been, I could have mentioned Unbuntu, another prime breeding ground for lame little kids with delusions of grandiur.

Oh, whoops.

Re:Get a fucking grip (1)

jokumuu (831894) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886835)

In most cases today it seems that the actual technical merits of some systems have low bearing, instead you go with someone's opinnion. For that you need thing called marketing...

Regadless how good something new is, people are not going to abandon it as said above. (This is not meant as comment on the relative merits of the two systems)

Re:Get a fucking grip (1)

ceeam (39911) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886936)

The only thing this indicates to me is that Grid/LAMP is going to struggle to gain acceptance in the enterprise because it proponents are idiots.

Generalization - a sure sign of an intellectual. Or not.

Still no TPC (5, Interesting)

dras (153525) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886767)

For the majority of enterprise projects I've worked on, we wouldn't event consider a platform that didn't perform Two Phase Commits (MySQL) nor supported distributed transactions. This stuff still has a long way to go before it's to be taken seriously.

Re:Still no TPC (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10886790)

not to mention Views, Triggers, Stored Procedures, Referential Integrity, etc., etc.

Re:Still no TPC (1)

dras (153525) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886798)

Heh, make that 2PC. But while we're onto TPC figures...

LAMP (5, Insightful)

slittle (4150) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886894)

Substitute Postgres or whatever to taste, but that just fucks up a perfectly good acronym, so we'll pretend MySQL is a placeholder for $REAL_DATABASE of your choice.

J2EE? (-1, Flamebait)

should_be_linear (779431) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886768)

Kicking ass of J2EE does not yet impose any technical quality of LAMP except that it actually works.

Re:J2EE? (1)

aled (228417) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886788)

Works in that you can build slashdot on it OR in the sense of building enterprise applications?

I haven't RTFA, but... (2, Insightful)

Zangief (461457) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886778)

Can you use Postgres instead of MySQL in LAMP, without extreme pain?
--
Wiki de Ciencia Ficcion y Fantasia [uchile.cl]

Re:I haven't RTFA, but... (3, Funny)

dave420 (699308) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886793)

No, 'cos then you have LAPP.

ba-DING.

Re:I haven't RTFA, but... (3, Funny)

NickeB (763713) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886821)

Which is the swedish word for patch... It's a sign I tell you!

Re:I haven't RTFA, but... (1)

dave420 (699308) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886841)

they're watching us right now! run!

Re:I haven't RTFA, but... (1)

aled (228417) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886805)

Better yet: could one use Firebird, Oracle, Informix, DB/2, Derby, MS SQL, Ingres, etc without extreme pain?

Re:I haven't RTFA, but... (1)

sverrehu (22545) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886818)

You can use Linux, Tomcat, PostgreSQL and Java with no pain, except for the pronounciation of the acronym.

Re:I haven't RTFA, but... (1)

aled (228417) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886893)

That's what I mean.

Re:I haven't RTFA, but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10886920)

JLPT? Japanese Language Proficiency Test [thejapanesepage2.com]

Re:I haven't RTFA, but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10886838)

It's a sliding scale:

  1. MS SQL: Death preferable, no release
  2. Informix: You'll eventually manage to commit suicide through an elaborate plan involving the manuals.
  3. DB/2: You'll eventually kill the person who made you use it to obtain release.
  4. Oracle: Extreme pain but many Oracle DBA's escape and hide amongst the programmers, bringing anguish and torment to others as payback.
  5. Ingres: If you've had a heart attack you'll know the feeling you get in your left arm. Like that.
  6. Derby: I think my arms gone to sleep. Ooh, pins and needles.
  7. Firebird: That tickles.

Re:I haven't RTFA, but... (0, Redundant)

buro9 (633210) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886833)

Can you use Postgres instead of MySQL in LAMP, without extreme pain?

Yes, but then it would be LAPP, and that doesn't sound as good in meetings... you can't use puns about the light coming on, illumination, brilliance, etc then... or dazzle the CEO with tech-babble along the lines of "LAMP outperforms J2EE because it has more Lumens".

Re:I haven't RTFA, but... (1)

ChaosMt (84630) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886863)

Heck ya. I do so all the time. I don't favor MySql except for quick and sloppy stuff. Heck, I do OpenBSD, Apache 1, PostGresql, php/perl. You want extreme pain? Trying doing any thing simple with oracle. Never try and do anything simple with oracle - NEVER.
However, the "extreme pain" your are probably reffering to is most of the free server software we all install is mainly for LAMP. Using another db is probably the least tested item. In addition to so MANY of these projects are haphazard in documentation and are only mostly portable. So, you end up becoming a co-developer instead of simple user. That is painful, but it's not the fault of the db so much as the cost of free software.

Re:I haven't RTFA, but... (1)

ceeam (39911) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886905)

I tend to use FirebirdSQL these days. I've used it (IB in fact) before w/ standalone apps and was reasonably happy. But it was some time ago. Then when PHP/MySQL schism hit I tried it w/ PHP and to my amusement it is as fast as MySQL if not faster. Plus - you have transactions and stuff, minus - some syntactic peculiarities (no "SELECT" without "FROM" for example), and autoinc->explicit_generators issue. Otherwise - it rocks! Now I can hardly see a reason to go with MySQL instead of FB. Oh! And if you want to use it elsewhere, not from the web server only, there's no licensing bullshit about that. Nice. Don't forget to try IBExpert for "post-CASE" DB management.

Re:I haven't RTFA, but... (1)

Ingolfke (515826) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886927)

Can you use Postgres ... without extreme pain?

Since this post is clearly just a breeding ground for flamewars... the answer is NO.

Do not equate JAva to J2EE (4, Interesting)

Trinition (114758) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886786)

Not to start another PHP vs. Java flame war, but it looks like LAMP is starting to grow up, and that it is much better suited for next generation applications than J2EE

(emphasis mine)

Remember, folks, Java is more than just J2EE and J2EE is only a part of Java. There are many enterprise applications written without the cancer that is J2EE. There a great number of alternative frameworks for building enterprise applications.

Personally, I feel that J2EE justifies itself because the bloat of a J2EE server means you have to have multiple instances to support an equivalent load a non-J2EE solution could handle on a single server.

Re:Do not equate JAva to J2EE (1)

dras (153525) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886887)

And consider all the lightweight containers that are moving into that middle ground. For example Spring with hibernate, OpenJMS, Quartz, and a mass of open source options is very simple to use (once you've sorted out all your options) without the J2EE baggage. And using Eclipse to pump out code greatly reduces the code to deployment cycle, as fast as with any scripting language.

Java versus PHP? (1)

Rollie Hawk (831376) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886789)

What in the hell do these two have to do with each other?

Re:Java versus PHP? (1)

dave420 (699308) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886807)

In case you HAVE been on mars for the last 6 years, two programming languages.

Re:Java versus PHP? (1)

Rollie Hawk (831376) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886930)

Thanks for stating the obvious. I just don't see where they can really be compared in their application.

sorry, dont remember my login (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10886802)

first: i'm not a coward... ;)
I'm miojo (at) javafree.com.br

second: Is this blog hosted at a LAMP suite? Because I'm not getting the site openned here in my browser... ;)

where is the scalability ?

BTW, i'm a Java/J2EE programmer... ;)

RTFA (2, Funny)

aled (228417) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886814)

"Of course, calling its platform an application server is something of a marketing ploy since, as Peter has explained, an application server is the last thing you need. What ActiveGrid is really providing is a highly tuned "text pump" to occupy the fabric/bus space in a transaction-intensive enterprise data center."

Translation? (2, Funny)

Jacques Chester (151652) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886816)

I tried every online translator I could, however the article still comes out as absolute gibberish.

What with the concurrent text pump synergies, next languages, impedance mismatches and grid quantum antipolarity trilithium subspace continuums, I got a bit lost.

Anyone understand what they're peddling?

Re:Translation? (1)

aled (228417) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886917)

I understud the problem with trilithium subspace continuums after watching 213 episodes of star trek. The rest is a mistery to me but seems to be related to trilithium causing a subspace disruption in the computer core grid.

Re:Translation? (1, Funny)

Jacques Chester (151652) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886945)

I knew it! Bloody proprietary Enterprise-class designs!

LAMP may be fine for web-based applications... (5, Insightful)

altgrr (593057) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886819)

...but doesn't it seem a little silly to base computational applications on what is essentially a glorified webserver? Sure, use LAMP for your shopping cart, but enterprise applications are more than just shopping carts.

"There is no impedance mismatch, everything talks SOAP/HTTP" - well, yes, that's great, but you shouldn't be talking SOAP/HTTP internally. There are faster means of communication, so use them.

"Apparently what is needed is a language/environment that is loosely typed in order to encapsulate XML well and that can efficiently process text" - only on input and output. In intermediary stages, you should be using a much more efficient format. If you're doing something clever, it's going to involve much more than just plain old text.

"J2EE and .NET applications were never designed with grids in mind" - well, I can't speak for .NET, but J2EE is designed for clustering and distribution. Have you seen EJBs? EJBs are designed for interaction across computers.

RTFA and you'll see that LAMP is being pushed for "text-pumping". Why aren't they saying it's any good for anything else? Because it most likely isn't.

Scripting languages suck (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10886822)

Can any fan of the Perl, PHP, or Python explain why they are better than java or C# for LARGE applications? Strict type-checking is extremely useful, and I believe essential, for large applications. With strict type-checking and OOPS, the compiler does a lot of the work to ensure that the correct objects are passed to functions and that they are initialized, etc.

But with any scripting language, you have to run the application to catch even trivial bugs like misspelled methods and incorrect argument types.

I'm sure scripting languages have their place, but I've NEVER written a large script, without eventually wishing that I'd originally used a strict language. Scripts are great for fast turnaround, but only if you don't mind chasing trivial bugs that a compiler should have caught. I want a language that's tighter than a straightjacket.

Re:Scripting languages suck (1)

/ASCII (86998) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886856)

To each his own. Some people prefer dynamically typed langages, you know. Not just for developing websites either.

Re:Scripting languages suck (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10886888)

>> Can any fan of the Perl, PHP, or Python explain why they are better than java or C# for LARGE applications?

I suspect not. Many of the LAMP proponents grew up hacking shell scripts rather than doing real software engineering.

If you can't see why strong typing isn't a good idea then stick to writing shopping carts and let the real developers write enterprise applications.

I just got myself some new asbestos underwear (-1, Flamebait)

RAMMS+EIN (578166) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886827)

So I'll start.

Of course LAMP is better suited for next-generation applications than Java. Java is comparatively heavy, forces you into an object-oriented paradigm, has static typing, and doesn't lend itself well for rapid prototyping and development.

The P languages are dynamic, flexible, light-weight and pretty much designed for rapid prototyping and development. They also lead to more concise programs than Java.

All this is obvious to people who have actually studied these languages and evaluated them in an open-minded way. Only people who don't really know anything besides Java and those who have been brainwashed by the hype machine that think otherwise.

Not to say that Java is all bad and the Ps are all perfect, but Java is a flawed language, and people are slowly waking up to this.

Re:I just got myself some new asbestos underwear (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10886906)

I just got myself some new asbestos underwear. Of course LAMP is better suited for next-generation applications than Java.

And your karma whoring panties I see.

Re:I just got myself some new asbestos underwear (4, Insightful)

iBod (534920) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886911)

Of course LAMP is better suited for next-generation applications than Java.

Why "of course"?

Am I alone in wondering exactly what a "next-generation application" is anyway?

What qualities or requirements define a "next-generation application", other than it not having been developed yet?

Anyhow, it was my take on the article that the use of 'P' languages was incidental, it was the grid concept and the horizontal scaling. The 'P' languages just happen to be part of a readily available set of tools for implementing this idea.

Forced into and OO "paradigm"? (3, Insightful)

TheConfusedOne (442158) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886918)

Ummm, last time I saw that I called it development.

The reason for using an OO language is to get you to work with objects and encapsulation. There's a really good reason to do any large enterprise level application using objects. That is that the app is being designed to last longer than one year. That means that during it's life back-end systems are going to change, customer requirements are going to change, and new requirements are going to be introduced.

If you haven't properly separated out all of the portions of your code then when they come back and say "can you give us these two functions running on PDA's?" you're gonna be SOL.

(I spent a year building a system and they promised to transition one of the back-end systems to a whole new platform by the end of the job. They never succeeded but we developed against the old system and the new so it didn't slow us down one bit. THAT'S why you take the time to do OO work.)

Re:I just got myself some new asbestos underwear (1)

lottameez (816335) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886926)

There are all sorts of "flawed" technologies that win in the marketplace over aesthetically superior rivals.

The question would be:

Is the PHP solution such a sufficient improvement that IT shops world wide will throw away millions of hours of J2EE training, development, and maintenance in order to satisfy the purists?

I seriously doubt it. How many more ways do you need to solve the same problem?

I don't mean to start a Flame War... (1, Funny)

Galapas (155864) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886829)

but Emacs kicks the crap out of vi...

-G

Sigh... (4, Insightful)

LarsWestergren (9033) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886846)

Ok, I had already spent a modpoint in this topic, but I realized it is better to speak up to defend your position than to stand on the sides and give out points to "your" team.

Article is Slashdotted, so I can't comment on the content, but just to reply to some of the posts that will defenitely come up, because they ALWAYS come up when Java is discussed-

EJB are bloated etc:
J2EE is does NOT equal Enterprise Javabeans. J2EE contains classes for lots of things. XML processing, messages, web servers, database connectivity, etc. You don't have to use EJB. Lots of Java developers don't like EJB because they are too cumbersome, and there are plenty of alternatives. Check out for instance O'Reillys recent book Better, Faster, Lighter Java [oreilly.com] .

Java is slow:
Startup time for the JVM is still slow yes. This rarely matters for a web/application server. When it comes to running, it is plenty enough.

It isn't open source:
So what. It's close enough.

Ok, that over with, was this darn topic necessary? I like both LAMP and Java. They have their uses, why did the poster and the article have to turn this into a confrontation?

More marketing hype (2)

standards (461431) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886849)

Check out this blog entry in Loosely Coupled about ActiveGrid's new open source Grid Application Server based on the LAMP (Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP/Python/Perl) stack.

I love marketing hype like this.

One sure sign of marketing hype is to quote a venture capitalist on technology. That's why we all don't own a Segway, despite its claimed "future".

Second of all, a technical paper shouldn't be based around a press release that quotes the same venture capitalist. Not too many technologists will take that seriously.

Next, don't bring the NetDynamics CTO near me. Maybe he's a good guy and all, but in my experience, NetDynamics was one fucked up product. And this was before AND after Sun gobbled them up. It was like the Marketeers and Experimentationalists got into it, forgot that it was supposed to be an enterprise product, and screwed it to hell.

Finally, a combination of Perl, PHP, and Python for a complicated enterprise app isn't going to win any awards - damn, how many specialists does one need?

Finally, I'm not going to be running my payroll on a core of MySQL, PHP, Python, and Perl. And which version of Apache? 1.3 or 2.0? Perl 6? Why isn't ksh in there?

I love people that seamingly have ZERO large, enterprise-class application experience telling those who do how to do it.

Apples and Oranges (1)

daBass (56811) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886857)

While I like Java, I have never been the greatest fan of J2EE for web applications, it's just over engineered.

But J2EE does more than just web apps. It's strength is being a business application server with Swing GUI front-end, the only competition in that field is .NET, and we know what platforms, or rather platform, that is supported on. The added bonus in that case is that it is dead easy to create a web application accessing the same systems. Try that with LAMP!

A fairer comparison would be LAMP and JSP/JDBC pure web apps. In which case in terms of number of instalations LAMP will always win because JSP doesn't play well in the $6.95/month massive multihosting game. But for business users, this is a moot point.

Flamewar (4, Funny)

pigeon (909) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886916)

"Not to start a flamewar, but you java developpers are a foul smelling, foul tasting bunch!"

Let's settle this once and for all... (1)

lauterm (655930) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886924)

Why don't we have the good guys here at /. find some enterprising J2EE coders to redo /. as a J2EE application. If it takes more servers to run the J2EE app then LAMP wins. If it takes less servers to run the new /. then J2EE wins. End of discussion.

Laughing all the way! (4, Insightful)

tod_miller (792541) | more than 9 years ago | (#10886937)

I didn't even know there was a PHP and Java flamewar going on! Where do I enlist?

No seriously, it is like comparing apples and oranges. PHP and the wonderous LAMP stack (I have just heard about it, so that is the first stumbling block for its adoption! many companies like to be fast followers) might be able to do what Java does if you look at output, it might even be quick, but that has nothing to do with the costs and development and staffing that real people with real money care about.

Java has a huge demand in industry that is being met with huge interest in terms of capable candidates which is proven by the number of successful and *bearing in mind this isn't a flamewar!* well written open source project out there.

The level of Java competency in the industry is growing enormously as a result, which is a good thing. PHP is also good, and I like PHP, lets not get things mixed up here.

[snip = list of reasons why people choose java, which was boring even me]

Also J2EE is *the* platform for applications running for thousands of users, on machines with 90+ GB of ram, and 24 processors just to handle the data requirements.

Oracle love J2EE. Oracle is a fairly decent enterprise (not just performance, but support and board level confidence) db to say the least.

Now, LAMP might be lovely, but why even pitch it against anything, dear LAMP community, just be, don't try and compare it against anything.

FUD et al.

PS: erm, nerr nerr? u sux0r? pwned? I am loosing my touch at this internet name calling gaff, time to retire.
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