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ESR Responds to Sun's Claims of Being a Better Bazaar

CowboyNeal posted more than 9 years ago | from the cathedral-calls-basilica-cold dept.

Sun Microsystems 310

UnixSphere writes "Sun has been quoted to have said, 'Sun's Java is developed more in the mode of the bazaar than Linux is,' which has prompted OSI President Eric Raymond to correct Sun's view of what open source really is."

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Not sure about Bazaar, but it seems Bizarre (3, Interesting)

mfh (56) | more than 9 years ago | (#10930920)

Why are they quibbling? It's all really bizarre to me! (The two are on the same side, right? Or did Microsoft's settlement with Sun change things?)

Execs Getting Noticed (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10930942)

This is just high-level banter from high-up execs trying to create controversy to get themselves and their companies and products noticed. All publicity is good publicity, just like when the Sex Pistols swore on TV back in the '70s or when Mick Jagger got busted for smoking weed back in the '60s.

Nothing more nothing less.

Re:Not sure about Bazaar, but it seems Bizarre (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10930968)

"The two are on the same side, right? Or did Microsoft's settlement with Sun change things?"

Woud they have done a settlement if all would remain the same?

Re:Not sure about Bazaar, but it seems Bizarre (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10930974)

Look, Microsofts settlement with Sun would never include anything about VM's considering the patented VM and class libraries Microsoft wants to infect the computing world with. Anybody who says otherwise is a tinfoil hat wearing freak who second guesses a reformed organization that never really broke competion laws.

Re:Java (4, Insightful)

ShieldW0lf (601553) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931032)

I for one am glad that they don't open the possibility of a fork for Java. It would be a stupid move. Just look at all the bullshit that went down with Microsoft, their attempts to do so, and the resultant chilling effect that had on Java on the desktop.

If I was an American (god forbid) and Sun WAS to open source Java after spending all that time in court with Microsoft regarding their aforementioned forking, I'd say the appropriate thing to do would be to chase them down with pitchforks and torches for wasting so much taxpayer money.

Re:Java (3, Insightful)

Sunnan (466558) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931250)

It's because java isn't free (open source) software that it has to be forked (with GCJ, Kaffe, et al).

A nice, DFSG-compliant, GPL-compatible license would make all of our lives easier and a fork wouldn't be necessary.

Re:Java (4, Insightful)

maw (25860) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931404)

gcj and kaffe aren't forks; they're new implementations. But you're right that java's unfreeness is a large part of why they exist.

Re:Java (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931350)

> If I was an American (god forbid)

God is an American, you insensitive clod!

Re:Not sure about Bazaar, but it seems Bizarre (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931039)

It's happening because what nobody has suspected is going to happen.

Sun will not open source Solaris in the manner everyone is thinking|! They will open up the code for review, but nobody will be allowed to use the code in their own software without paying money to sun.

I dont see why everyone blindly trusts Sun. This is purely a publicity stunt. I repeat and let me make this clear .. Sun will not allow people to freely modify and/or re-use portions of the solaris code in their own products.

Solaris will be "open sourced" so that people can browse the code (maybe having clicked through or signed an agreement essentially barring the signer from helping to make any competing operating system. Ever.

There will be serious problems with Sun's license.

Read my lips:

SUN WILL NOT MAKE SOLARIS AVAILABLE UNDER AN OPENSOURCE.ORG APPROVED LICENSE.

Re:Not sure about Bazaar, but it seems Bizarre (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931183)

OpenSolaris will be based on the JCP model.
The OpenSolaris committee (uncertain as to what its name will be) will determine what's in Solaris.

Nobody will be permitted to use source code from Solaris in any commercial or free products without paying a fee.

This model will be marketted as being better because it ensures that contributors to Solaris dont have to worry about other people using their contributions and calling it something else (like Linux?). Also it will be claimed that
Sun will maintain initial control of OpenSolaris in order to bring it stability and ensure it's viability.

Someone who views the Solaris code will never be allowed to work on Linux or other operating systems.

Initial control of course will really mean "forever control".

This posting is of course an opinion .. i dont have insider info .. I'm just speculating based on what I read from public news stuff.

OSS and Sun are on different sides (1, Interesting)

jeif1k (809151) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931094)

If there are two sides to this at all, the two sides are proprietary control over software and the freedom to modify software. While Sun has done some good for the OSS community in the past, wtih Java, Sun is firmly on the same side as Microsoft, since Java is under complete proprietary control. That's also no accident, since Java is the only major software product Sun has that is still of any relevance to the market.

Sun likes to cast these issues as "Sun+OSS vs. Microsoft" because it's good marketing, but that is an illusion and a lie. Sun helps OSS in some areas (which is nice), but with Sun Java, they have attempted an assault on open source and open standards. But Sun's assault is failing. The "cathedral" model under which Java is being developed is failing in the same way cathedral models have failed before: it's resulting in a bloated mess.

Re:OSS and Sun are on different sides (4, Insightful)

wwwillem (253720) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931187)

That's also no accident, since Java is the only major software product Sun has that is still of any relevance to the market.

Do you think the acceptance of 'Linux on the Desktop' would have been on the level it is now, without OpenOffice / StarOffice? None of the attempts (do I hear Munchen) to wipe MS from the typical office desktop would have had any success without Sun's StarOffice or OOo. In my book that is relevance to the market.

The same can of course be said about Ximian (Novell) or Mozilla (Netscape/AOL), but what are HP's or IBM's contributions to the Linux world, without which Linux wouldn't have made it? Still, the /. community always mentions IBM and HP as the companies that embrace and understand Open Source and Linux. I don't get that .....

Re:OSS and Sun are on different sides (1)

jeif1k (809151) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931262)

We aren't talking about what great things Sun has done for open source in the past, I was making a comment about Sun's motivations.

Sun management must be asking themselves: where are we going to be five years from now? I think they see their hardware business failing, they don't control OpenOffice anymore, and they realize that few people care about Solaris. In fact, if StarOffice/OpenOffice showed them anything, it showed them that when they release something as open source, they won't be able to keep up with a proprietary version of it or make any money off it (duh!). So, what product is the money going to come from? What does Sun still own that people will want?

Well, basically only Java. And that's the reason they aren't giving up control over the standard or open sourcing their implementation. If they did, Java would immediately be snapped up by an open source consortium involving IBM and a few other companies, who would fork it, beat it into shape, and release a version that was so compellingly better than Sun's that Sun would lose control.

By holding on to Java, they at least have the illusion that they can somehow build a business around it if they only think hard enough about it.

Re:OSS and Sun are on different sides (1)

DerFeuervogel (136891) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931456)

Sun management must be asking themselves: where are we going to be five years from now?
Not an independent company if they don't get their house in order and FAST.
Personally I think they should have dropped Solaris 4 years ago, but that option may now be too late to persue. Whatever they do, they had better get MOVING.

Re:OSS and Sun are on different sides (1)

westlake (615356) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931347)

I don't get that .....

You have answered your own question:

None of the attempts to wipe MS from the typical office desktop would have had any success without Sun's StarOffice or OOo.

Sun's software was certainly bazaar originated (2, Informative)

ehack (115197) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931120)

Sun's software was originally Stanford's and the various utilities were deveoped by whoever was hanging round the computer rooms - it might be better if ESR etc stopped trying to teach the Unix pioneers what Unix is.

Why was this moderated as flamebait? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931479)

This is an insightful comment. It does not deserve to be moderated as flamebait. Shame on whomever descended into pettiness to do so.

Re:Not sure about Bazaar, but it seems Bizarre (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931135)

The two are on the same side, right?

Here's how the concerned sides act to each other in a very simplified manner:

Open Source community about Microsoft: Shared Source isn't Open Source, but thanks for the instaler. Your closed source sucks because there are too few eyes.

Open Source community about Sun: It would be nice if you would decide where you really stand, but thanks for OpenOffice.org. Your closed source could be better with more eyes.

Sun about Microsoft: We would like to get some of the money you are getting from your monopoly-like marketshare, but you have shown that you can not be trusted.

Sun about Open Source: Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Microsoft about Open Source: We like the BSD, we don't like copyleft.

Microsoft about Sun: Buzz off or we will crush you.

Sun = 3rd World Bazaar (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931179)

The point here is that Sun is a 3rd world bazaar. The majority of its workforce is former or current H-1Bs from India, Taiwan province, and the rest of China [tibet.org] .

When Sun management was talking about bazaar, the management was being truthful. OSI and Sun are simply talking about two different kinds of bazaars. Sun is referring to its disinclination to hire American employees. OSI is referring to the technical setup of it software.

Re:Sun = 3rd World Bazaar (0)

kin_korn_karn (466864) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931371)

The point here is that Sun is a 3rd world bazaar. The majority of its workforce is former or current H-1Bs from India, Taiwan province, and the rest of China.

When Sun management was talking about bazaar, the management was being truthful. OSI and Sun are simply talking about two different kinds of bazaars. Sun is referring to its disinclination to hire American employees. OSI is referring to the technical setup of it software.

See parent for link.

Sun = 3rd World Bazaar (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931299)

The point here is that Sun is a 3rd world bazaar. The majority of its workforce is former or current H-1Bs from India, Taiwan province, and the rest of China [tibet.org] [tibet.org].

When Sun management was talking about bazaar, the management was being truthful. OSI and Sun are simply talking about two different kinds of bazaars. Sun is referring to its disinclination to hire American employees. OSI is referring to the technical setup of it software.

Re:Not sure about Bazaar, but it seems Bizarre (1)

BlueWonder (130989) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931337)

The two are on the same side, right?

Nope. In reality, there are no sides; this either white or black, either good or evil view doesn't apply.

Most companies which behave friendly towards the free software community in one way, for which they should be applauded, also are hostile towards the same community in another way, for which they should be criticized. For example, the laudable fact that Sun has given us OpenOffice shouldn't stop us from criticizing the not so friendly things they also do.

obligatory 1st post (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10930924)

HAHA!

Bazaar or .... (2, Funny)

ralphart (70342) | more than 9 years ago | (#10930928)

I think he may have meant to say "Bizarre." Having dealt with support, I would agree with that statement.

Enough already! (1)

Lifewish (724999) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931146)

I'd just like you all to know that I'm waiting with a cattle prod for the next person to make that joke. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind...

Re:Enough already! (1)

ralphart (70342) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931465)

Sorry...too much turkey....brain fogged by cornbread dressing; cheap stupid joke too hard to resist. Put the prod away!

Time (0, Offtopic)

Claire-plus-plus (786407) | more than 9 years ago | (#10930943)

I would have thought they could both find more productive ways to spend their time. "I love mummy more! no I do! no i do" etc.

Re:Time (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931009)

heh, should they post to slashdot instead?

You're the expert.

Well there's a shocker (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10930947)

Say anything even remotely related to something ESR has spouted about in the past and you are guaranteed your very own personalized 8-page response. He's the most trollable man in the history of the Internet.

"Why is this?" you might ask. It's governed by the simple fact that ESR has nothing better to spend his prodigious amounts of free time on than the literary equivalent of listening to himself speak. I really wish Slashdot wouldn't encourage this guy by posting a story about him, because he really doesn't matter.

Re:Well there's a shocker (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931321)

I really wish Slashdot wouldn't encourage this guy by posting a story about him, because he really doesn't matter.

Oh God no, ignore him too much and he might resign from being whatever it is he thinks he is again. Or promise to resign. Or whatever that whole thing was supposed to be about.

I'm not sure who to support here. (1, Funny)

GeorgeMcBay (106610) | more than 9 years ago | (#10930951)

I'm not sure who to support here....because Sun really sucks these days (and this is coming from someone who was a huge fan back in the olden days of SunOS), but ESR is a huge twat as well...

Ah well, screw both of them.

really.. (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10930963)

..i hate these zealots.

ESR has no credibility (-1, Troll)

Dancin_Santa (265275) | more than 9 years ago | (#10930973)

I think it's time to put to rest this idea that because you wrote some obscure piece of software that you have some sort of cachet with the community. The biggest abuser of this myth is ESR. After writing Sendmail, perhaps the biggest security threat to Unix-systems evar, he tries to take advantage of his notoriety by making bland proclamations which disturb no one at all.

The fact of the matter is that only those companies with real money backing them are making serious contributions to large open source projects. Yes, there are a million and one open source "Hello World" projects on Sourceforge, but there is only one Linux, only one Apache. The companies behind those two projects are flush with cash and not staffed by "open source volunteers".

ESR needs to cash in his worthless stock and buy himself some coffee. He has long since faded into irrelevance and his current blatherings show more the bad side of the Open Source movement (the zealots, the true believers, etc) and does nothing to help the good side (realists).

Re:ESR has no credibility (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10930988)

Excellent troll, sir.

Re:ESR has no credibility (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10930992)

Eric Raymond didn't write Sendmail, it might explain alot if he had but I suspect you're thinking of the equally sucky fetchmail ( which he didn't write either IIRC ).

Re:ESR has no credibility (1)

GeorgeMcBay (106610) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931017)

More likely, assuming he wasn't trolling, he confused Eric Raymond with Eric Allman. So hard to keep the Erics straight these days...

Re:ESR has no credibility (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931042)

What makes you think the OP was male? Perhaps s/he's a female, you insensitive, sexist bastard!

Re:ESR has no credibility (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931124)

Hehe. Or maybe he doesn't know and decided to use proper English, instead of politically correct crap. Pffffft.

Re:ESR has no credibility (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931219)

We assume the OP was male because if it was a woman we wouldn't give a shit about her and would hope her feminist bitch ass would get hit by a bus.

Re:ESR has no credibility (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931073)

Eric Allman. So hard to keep the Erics straight these days...


unintentional pun I'm sure?

Re:ESR has no credibility (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931101)

I did a "man fetchmail", and lo and behold ...

AUTHOR
Eric S. Raymond . Too many other people to name here have contributed code and patches.
This program is descended from and replaces popclient, by Carl Harris ; the internals have
become quite different, but some of its interface design is directly traceable to that ancestral program.

Re:ESR has no credibility (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931195)

That's what I meant, he maintained and renamed an existing codebase, he did not write it from scratch.

Re:ESR has no credibility (1)

blueminder (573456) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931269)

But Eric S. Raymond did write The Cathedral and the Bazaar. If the Sun execs didn't want to hear anything from this man, they shouldn't have made their comments using such a metaphor he made famous in the community Sun is attempted to appeal to.

Re:ESR has no credibility (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931008)

Sendmail was written by Eric Allman, not Eric Raymond. You have become confused by Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs. [catb.org]

Re:ESR has no credibility (0, Troll)

320mb (590888) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931418)

I trust ESR MORE than I would ever trust RMS........RMS is a whinning crybaby-- and I refuse to give RMS any credit for anything........

JCP is anything but open (5, Interesting)

jeffphil (461483) | more than 9 years ago | (#10930980)

I wanted to get the JSR 168 compatibilty toolkit [jcp.org] for research. Note the text on the page for getting this toolkit:
The TCK will be available to Qualified
Not-for-Profits and Qualified Individuals for no
charge as per Section F.III of the JSPA 2.
So I sent an email off, and got a very quick response saying I had to complete this huge form and fax it back and then I may qualify.

Certainly a cathedral model.

Re:JCP is anything but open (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931292)

I think I can summarize this whole argument thusly: *wank* *wank* *wank* *wank* *wank* *wank*

Re:JCP is anything but open (5, Interesting)

Kunta Kinte (323399) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931410)

So I sent an email off, and got a very quick response saying I had to complete this huge form and fax it back and then I may qualify. Certainly a cathedral model.

Ok, let me get this straight...

Sun's model is cathedral like because you had to fill and fax a form?!

Am I the only one... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10930994)

who is sick and tired of all these Open-Source buzzwords? "Free... AS IN BEER (lol)", "Bazzar", etc. etc. It grates my nerves just as much as crooked IT marketing types talking about "Service-Oriented Paradigms" and "Integrated Solutions". Seriously, shut the fuck up. No one thinks that you're funny or insightful when you use these terms, you just come off as a pretentions dumbass.

Free Forking? (5, Insightful)

cervo (626632) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931004)

Didn't Microsoft try to make their own Java implementation(J++) and didn't sun go after them for it because it didn't stick to the java standards? Is that open source?

If you don't like the linux kernel you can take the code, make your own kernel, and even break whatever standards you want....Linus isn't going to drag you to court for breaking the POSIX standard or something.

Can the same be said or Java? In fact parts of it are still under a propietary license as the article states...so people who live in glass houses.....

Re:Free Forking? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931116)

You can fork the kernel but no one will use your version...

Re:Free Forking? (1)

shufler (262955) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931206)

Yes, no one will use it, however the point is that you CAN do this is you want.

If you go to the mall (I suppose this is the modern equivalent of a bazaar) you will see some stores that are less popular than other stores. It doesn't mean they have any less right to be there than other stores -- as long as they pay their bills on time, mall management probably couldn't care less.

Re:Free Forking? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931147)

Sun went after Microsoft because Microsoft didn't follow the rules they set down. If Microsoft forked Linux and didn't release their changes under the GPL, the open source world would have a huge knot in their panties.

Re:Free Forking? (4, Informative)

SHEENmaster (581283) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931302)

The difference is that Microsoft did it maliciously. If Sun forked an ancient version of Redhat, and sold it as Sun Redhat/Linux, Redhat would be rightfully pissed when people assumed that their modern software is crap because of it.

When Microsoft implemented J++, they touted it as Java, but it lacked many features that became standard in Java, like Swing. Including their own VM with Windows made users think they had Java, when they didn't, such that Swing applets couldn't be generally deployed for years.

I'm not defending Sun's claim that Java is more open than Linux, just that they had every right and every duty to keep Microsoft from fucking Java up for all of us.

Re:Free Forking? (1)

BlueWonder (130989) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931397)

When Microsoft implemented J++, they touted it as Java,
[...]

... which only confirms that Java should be protected from forks in the domain of trademark law. Additionally protecting it in the domain of copyright law seems stupid.

Re:Free Forking? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931482)

forking application = good
forking language = very bad

Re:Free Forking? (2, Interesting)

Kunta Kinte (323399) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931503)

Didn't Microsoft try to make their own Java implementation(J++) and didn't sun go after them for it because it didn't stick to the java standards? Is that open source?

Sun went after Microsoft because they had a contractual agreement which stated they had to produce a product with certain attributes before they can call it "Java".

Sun has never prevented alternative Java implementation, there are many [java-virtual-machine.net] .

As far as open-source there is Kaffe [kaffe.org] , GNU Classpath [gnu.org] , GCJ [gnu.org] , Jikes [ibm.com] and others.

All those projects need help. And I am sure Sun is not the reason they are not getting it.

Put your money and time where your mouth is and support open-source Java

Semantic Pissing Contest (0)

onyxruby (118189) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931014)

This is exactly the kind of semantic pissing contest that turns people off of open source people. Don't give this thing the wings it so richly doesn't deserve.

And here I thought the whole hacker v cracker debacle was silly. Be grateful for what comes and stop looking gift horses in the mouth.

Silly people.

Re:Semantic Pissing Contest (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931062)

Look it's not a semantic pissing contest, is simply clearing bovine excrement off the highway. If company officers talk bullshit, it's healthy for society that they should be ridiculed in public. Just look at the exposure given to Ballmer/Gates, the press never questions the lies and we all suffer as a result. We need more of this, dressing down business leaders, correcting doublespeak and promoting integrity.

Re:Semantic Pissing Contest (2, Funny)

k98sven (324383) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931102)

Yes, it's semantical in the sense that 'open source' means something specific, and that Sun is trying to use that term to describe something as 'open source' which is not 'open source' by anyone else's definition but Sun's.

I don't like semantical debates at all. (see my latest journal entry?)

Hacker vs. cracker is silly. Because that's a case of someone trying to replace common usage of a word with a less-common (but still valid) usage.

This is not silly. This is Sun trying to subvert the term 'open source' for their own PR purposes.

What most people are referring to when the mean 'open source' is fundamentally different from what Sun is calling 'open source'.

Re:Semantic Pissing Contest (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931156)

What a moronic journal post!



Consider this:

1!=2
Copyright infringement is not stealing.


People with valid arguments have no difficulty using the correct term! Without semantics language is meaningless.

Re:Semantic Pissing Contest (1)

k98sven (324383) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931340)

People with valid arguments have no difficulty using the correct term! Without semantics language is meaningless.

And using what you consider to be the 'incorrect' term does not invalidate the argument.

Everyone knows perfectly well what is meant when someone refers to copyright infringement as 'stealing'.

Re:Semantic Pissing Contest (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931237)

'open source' means something specific

Want to control the defintion of a term? Invent it and then trademark it. ESR did neither with "open source".

Re:Semantic Pissing Contest (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931336)

The fact that it isn't trademarked only means that Schwartz can use the term without fear of getting sued for trademark infringement; it doesn't grant Schwartz or Sun immunity from criticism when they say something false or misleading.

Every time Schwartz lies or misleads people, the OSS community will respond. I think this sort of thing is ultimately bad for Sun, but that's for Sun to decide.

Re:Semantic Pissing Contest (1)

Ralph Yarro (704772) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931385)

This is not silly. This is Sun trying to subvert the term 'open source' for their own PR purposes.

Would you like to explain why that is different to the MPAA trying to subvert the term "theft" for their own PR purposes?

Re:Semantic Pissing Contest (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931406)

I don't like semantical debates at all. (see my latest journal entry?)

And when I see you whining about misuse of words that you care about I know that you're a paedophile (by which I mean hypocrit, but let's not argue semantics).

Mod Parent +5 funny (1)

Hope Thelps (322083) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931505)

Yes, it's semantical in the sense that 'open source' means something specific

"In the sense that..."???

I LOVE this. The self proclaimed hater of semantic debates is getting in a sideways quibble over the meaning of SEMANTICAL.

Tell us in what sense you like to use the word 'semantical', K98sven.

there are real issues at stake (4, Interesting)

jeif1k (809151) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931129)

This is exactly the kind of semantic pissing contest that turns people off of open source people. Don't give this thing the wings it so richly doesn't deserve.

Sun is trying to market their products by taking advantage of the good will and trust that open source licenses have and misrepresenting their proprietary products as being associated with open source, and you blame "open source people" for it? You should be blaming Sun marketing and management. Their behavior has been reprehensible.

Open source people have better things to do than to worry about every single proprietary product out there. Get Schwartz and Sun to shut up about open source and cathedrals and bazaars and nobody will waste a second thought on Sun anymore. But as long as Sun keeps misleading people, open source advocates will respond because Sun's behavior is threatening the future of the open source movement.

Re:Semantic Pissing Contest (4, Insightful)

cgreuter (82182) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931131)

Don't give this thing the wings it so richly doesn't deserve.

Unfortunately, that approach doesn't work. If you don't vigorously deny an accusation, people tend to assume it's true. It's just like the way corporations handle rumours about them (e.g. the one about Proctor and Gamble being a Satanist organisation). They deny them any chance they get and that's the only effective way of dealing with something like that.

If ESR doesn't respond, a lot of casual readers will just sort of assume that Schwartz's claims are true.

Re:Semantic Pissing Contest (2, Insightful)

westlake (615356) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931487)

The point is that no one gives a damn. The analogy between the cathedral and the bazaar has become so twisted, stretched, and debased as to become meaningless. To me it has the same flavor as the much abused quote from Gandhi ("first they laugh at you...") posted ad nauseum on Slashdot

Re:Semantic Pissing Contest (4, Insightful)

Sunnan (466558) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931294)

Be grateful for what comes and stop looking gift horses in the mouth.
If that's your philosophy, my friend Ulysses has a giant wooden horse he wants to give you...

Ok, where is it? (1)

jaymzter (452402) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931018)

Was this response an open letter or from an e-mail interview? I've checked out catb.org and OSI's website and can't seem to find any in depth response from ESR

ESR is a whiny bitch! (0, Flamebait)

BradlyLane (314200) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931028)

Film at 11!!

Sun will not truly open source solaris (0, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931046)

Sun will not open source Solaris in the manner everyone is thinking! They will open up the code for review, but nobody will be allowed to use the code in their own software without paying money to sun.

I dont see why everyone blindly trusts Sun. This is purely a publicity stunt. I repeat and let me make this clear .. Sun will not allow people to freely modify and/or re-use portions of the solaris code in their own products.

Solaris will be "open sourced" so that people can browse the code (maybe having clicked through or signed an agreement essentially barring the signer from helping to make any competing operating system. Ever.

There will be serious problems with Sun's license.

Read my lips:

SUN WILL NOT MAKE SOLARIS AVAILABLE UNDER AN OPENSOURCE.ORG APPROVED LICENSE.

Eric Raymond (1)

0x54524F4C4C (712971) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931071)



is a Crystal Meth [urban75.com] addict [tinyurl.com]

what's good about bazaar anyway (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931078)

you end up with halfass clunky junk and shitty documentation. after seeing what *BSD had to offer i was like: hells yeah gimme da cathedral mon!

What Happened in Holland (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931096)

Rob stirred in his sleep, having felt a light tickling on his cheek. He moved his hand sleepily across his face and stopped when he felt warmth at his fingertips. As he slowly began to wake up a lamp flicked on, flooding Rob's bed with red light.

"Huh? Who's there? What--" Rob said, slurring his words.

Again he felt a tickling on his cheek and opened his eyes. He jerked his head back.

"Motherfucker!" Rob yelled as his eyes went wide.

ESR's hairy erect penis, thin and crooked and pulsing with each heartbeat, hovered centimeters from Rob's jaw. His bushy red pubic hair bearded his red scrotum which hung low between his pale thighs.

"Hi Rob, I just got off the bus from Kansas City and decided to make a pit-stop in Holland. Hope ya don't mind!" ESR said with a childlike grin. His drooping orange mustache fluttered as his breath came in gasps.

"You sick fuck! How did you get in my house? And where's Kathleen? What did you do to my wife?"

ESR crawled closer to Rob as he took his softening shaft in his hand and began slowly jacking himself.

"Kathleen's fine, Rob!" ESR said, producing a half-full green bottle of Jaegermeister in one hand and a .44 Magnum in the other.

"Motherfucker! I'll fucking kill you!" Rob shouted.

"Now now, Rob, that will never do. You'll suck my penis to erection and then take it in your sweet little anus until I it's time to dump a load of Uncle Eric's special sauce down your slick throat, and you'll like it!" ESR said.

With this ESR cocked the hammer of his gun and pointed it at Rob's mouth and began forcing his jaw open with the barrel as he poured the Jaegermeister, thick and dark and brown, into Rob's mouth. He trickled some onto his bush and penis for good measure and jammed his thin cock into Rob's mouth. Rob took it to the hilt.

"That's a good little faggot. You take all of Uncle Eric's junk and you like it!" Eric said as he began pumping his cock in and out of Rob's mouth. ESR's bulbous white gut hovered menacingly over Rob's face like a full moon and his ruddy pubes tickled Rob's nose. The gun barrel wavered at Rob's eyes.

Rob moaned as ESR grunted his pleasures into the back of Rob's throat.

"Now Rob, I want you to look me in the eyes. Look at me, Rob, look at Uncle Eric while he rides your face like a six-wheeled ATV!"

Rob's beady eyes connected with Eric's pale blue irises, tears welling in his eyelids as ESR's crotch continued its assault.

"I have with me a funnel, Rob, and you're going to take it in your ass. This old cock of mine needs a little lube and we're going to pack your rec-room full of something quite slippery!" ESR said as his eyes grew wide. He shook his bottle of Jaegermeister again as he helped Rob pull his pants off.

With a pop Eric removed his pulsating cock, slick with spit, from Rob's hungry mouth as Rob turned over onto all fours, his back arched and ass swaying in the air. ESR's little orange funnel entered Rob's anus without complaint as he began pouring the brown fluid. Rob shivered.

"Good boy, Rob. Good boy. Uncle Eric's gonna feel real good in a second. Oh!" ESR moaned as he rammed his dong home into Rob's familiar rectum. "Reeeal goooood..."

Rob cried out in pain as ESR put his full weight into each and every thrust, Rob's hairy ass-cheeks spread further and further apart with every push.

"OK, Rob, I want you to say hello to my little friend!" ESR said with a maniacal laugh. Rob hissed as he felt something cold and metal begin to enter his asshole right beside ESR's rigid cock. "What's the barrel of my .44 feel like up there, Rob?"

"I can't take this anymore! I was done with this when I moved from Ann Arbor! I just want to have a normal straight life with Kathleen, I just--" Rob said through sobs and grunts as Eric continued his battering ram assault. "I just want to live a straight lifestyle and leave my gay days behind!"

Eric grunted one last time, withdrew his gun and cock from Rob's bloodied anus, and shoved Rob onto his back.

"Get ready to take my load, boy!" Eric yelled as he jacked his crooked cock into Rob's mouth. He kept his .44 focused on Rob's forehead as he began pouring the brown liquor into Rob's mouth. A few drops of the spirit hit ESR's dick and he lost control. His butt cheeks tightened and his hips thrust forward and backward like a piston as his scrotum tightened.

"You little fucking Linux faggot, take my load!" ESR shouted at the top of his lungs. Spurt after spurt of sickly yellow hacker semen erupted from ESR's straining purple cockhead into Rob's gullet, the Jaeger splashing Rob's face and mixing with the cum into an infernal homosexual cocktail. Rob gagged and flailed his arms.

Rob laid gasping and spitting after ESR climbed off of his spent form.

"Thanks there, Robbie. Old Uncle Eric better get the fuck out of hear now before the cops come. I'm sure someone heard you crying like a little girl!" ESR said, laughing again.

Rob turned and looked at ESR as if in a trance. Blood and semen and Jaegermeister leaked from his sullied lips and collected in his goatee. Sweat and more Jaegermeister covered his brow. His eyes, bloodshot from the alcohol, strained to make out ESR's pudgy form shuffling in the darkness.

"Oh, and by the way, Rob, I didn't kill Kathleen. She's probably going to need some medical attention though," Eric said. "I pistol-whipped her and injected her with about a pint of this Jaeger. She's duct-taped face-down on the futon next door, just so you know."

Rob started but then cried out in pain as his ass spasmed. His hand went to his sore, puffy anus and he rolled around in his soiled sheets. His eyes were glazed over, almost catatonically. He began crying again, his whole body wracked in weeping.

Eric stuffed his .44 in the waistband of his pants, freshly pulled up, and grabbed his bottle of Jaegermeister as he made a beeline for the door.

"You take care now Rob, I have a bus to catch back to Malvern! You have a sweet, sweet anus and a hot little mouth there! I'll be back around to command your taco again some other time, faggot!" Eric said with a cackle as he vanished into the darkness.

A few seconds later a door slammed and the house was silent except for Rob's quiet sobbing and Kathleen's faint coughing in the next room over.

Source [trollaxor.com]

I'm not sure how I feel about this (1)

acidrain69 (632468) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931123)

I'm sure this has been discussed to death up until now, but how does open-sourcing an API work?

If there is a fork, doesn't that present huge problems for the development community?

And since Java is an interpretted (kind of) language, doesn't that pose a problem with compatibility?

At least with C, you have the benefit of compiling. With Java, you are compiling to java bytecode, which is still interpretted, and still prone to problems between the forks.

I guess you kind of experience this problem with shared libraries under *NIX, but at least you have the possibility for static compiling. You are stuck with the JRE for Java, no?

Mod parent up (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931161)

Fragmentation is a huge problem if Java were to be open sourced and forked.

Re:I'm not sure how I feel about this (1)

PigleT (28894) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931171)

> If there is a fork, doesn't that present huge problems for the development community?

Why should it?

You use a library that implements an API, you use the library. You decide the library's not quite the way you want it, you implement the diffs you require and send them back upstream for potential inclusion; alternatively, you fork it and go.
And here's the crucial bit: if enough other people think your fork is worthwhile, they'll follow you.

And why on earth would we want to compile anything statically? List an application's dependencies properly and there'll never be a problem.

Re:I'm not sure how I feel about this (4, Interesting)

jeif1k (809151) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931177)

I'm sure this has been discussed to death up until now, but how does open-sourcing an API work?

Up to now, very few APIs have been proprietary. Sun has broken new ground by successfully asserting a high level of control over the Java APIs (not just their implementation).

If there is a fork, doesn't that present huge problems for the development community?

Languages like C, C++, Fortran, Perl, shell, and Python have all thrived in the absence of the level of control that Sun is trying to exercise. The reason is simple market economics: implementations that don't provide the features that users want disappear on their own.

Sun is trying to substitute their own interests for the wisdom and preferences of their end users. They are churning out one API after another, but users have no choice but to build on what Sun ships; even if there were alternative implementations, users would still be forced to accept whatever garbage Sun and the JCP dream up.

At least with C, you have the benefit of compiling. With Java, you are compiling to java bytecode, which is still interpretted, and still prone to problems between the forks.

Modern C programs have numerous shared library dependencies; Java's byte-code based system would, if anything, be more robust.

I guess you kind of experience this problem with shared libraries under *NIX, but at least you have the possibility for static compiling. You are stuck with the JRE for Java, no?

You are only stuck with the JRE for Java because Sun keeps you from having a choice. If Java were an open standard, there would be dozens of different implementations, and those implementations would work out amongst themselves what features were important core features and what features were vendor-specific extensions.

Re:I'm not sure how I feel about this (4, Insightful)

Zeinfeld (263942) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931363)

Sun is trying to substitute their own interests for the wisdom and preferences of their end users. They are churning out one API after another, but users have no choice but to build on what Sun ships; even if there were alternative implementations, users would still be forced to accept whatever garbage Sun and the JCP dream up.

The reason many people don't equate this with Microsoft tactics is that Microsoft hatred is all about protecting the value of guild crafts and nothing about principle. Windows hatred is simply the modern equivalent of the hatred the Cobol and Fortran camps had of C. The future really hurts when it threatens to make your own skills obsolete.

On Java it was Sun who were being the evil proprietary monopolists. Their objective was to reduce every platform to the level of Solaris, leveling down, not up. Suns approach was "If you dare do anything that I can't I'll sue you."

Java could have been the future of computing but there is no way that any company, let alone a declining company like Sun can be trusted with the complete control they demand. The chances of Sun ending up in a SCO like position in five years time are significant.

Re:I'm not sure how I feel about this (2, Interesting)

jeif1k (809151) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931435)

Windows hatred is simply the modern equivalent of the hatred the Cobol and Fortran camps had of C. The future really hurts when it threatens to make your own skills obsolete.

I think the analogy is apt, but backwards. The Cobol/Fortran and C camps had mutual dislike. Cobol/Fortran represented entrenched, well-paid, proprietary interests. It was the analog of Microsoft today. C represented the slightly chaotic, open, non-proprietary alternative, like Linux today. And today, the dislike between Microsoft developers and OSS is also mutual.

Microsoft hatred is all about protecting the value of guild crafts and nothing about principle.

Yes, and that sums it up: people are tired of paying a premium for the Microsoft guild crafts, in particular since VB/VC++/.NET developers in general just aren't very skilled technically. That is why OSS has taken off. And OSS will beat Microsoft Windows and .NET for the same reason C/C++ effectively beat Cobol/Fortran.

On Java it was Sun who were being the evil proprietary monopolists. Their objective was to reduce every platform to the level of Solaris, leveling down, not up. Suns approach was "If you dare do anything that I can't I'll sue you."

Java could have been the future of computing but there is no way that any company, let alone a declining company like Sun can be trusted with the complete control they demand. The chances of Sun ending up in a SCO like position in five years time are significant.


I fully agree with those points. I think Sun is worse than Microsoft: Microsoft represents a particular approach forcefully, but at least they are honest about it (wrong, and doomed to failure, but honest). Sun, on the other hand, is just misleading people about what they are doing. And I also see the danger of an SCO-like meltdown. However, I think people are wising up to the threat and Java is becoming less and less popular for OSS.

What about GCJ and Kaffe and others? (4, Informative)

Kunta Kinte (323399) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931387)

You are only stuck with the JRE for Java because Sun keeps you from having a choice. If Java were an open standard, there would be dozens of different implementations, and those implementations would work out amongst themselves what features were important core features and what features were vendor-specific extensions.

Yeah right! Magical open-source developers will come out of nowhere right?

If you want open-source Java, and feel serious about helping out, then you have GCJ [gnu.org] and Kaffe [kaffe.org] .

Sun has allowed alternative JVMs for a long time and there are now many other JVMs [java-virtual-machine.net] to choose from.

You have your opportunity you develop Open-source Java, put your time and money where your mouth is, support Kaffe [kaffe.org] today!

Or do you just want to freeload off Sun's investement in their JVM?... Even if they already provide it for free.

More debate! (1, Interesting)

31415926535897 (702314) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931127)

Okay, after everybody decides to fight this one out, let's move on to some more important topics, like:

* windows vs. linux (vs. mac)
* vi vs. emacs
* creation vs. evolution
* republican vs. democrat (vs. independent)

I mean, that's all this kind of article can boil down to, so let's get the rest of today's arguments out of the way right now.

Re:More debate! (1)

kfg (145172) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931284)

You left out

*Vanilla vs. Chocolate (vs. Cherry Garcia)

Oh, wait, no, that was first on the list, wasn't it?

KFG

Re:More debate! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931498)

I use vi on Windows (ok vim), don't believe in creation (shit just happened), but vote republican.

I have done major projects in Java, but don't anymore. I use c# now. It will be something else later, then, hopefully decades from now, I'll be dead.

Time to trademark Open Source (1)

Rares Marian (83629) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931149)

Every F/OSS wannabe is diluting the notion of Open Source. And they're getting away with it.

Re:Time to trademark Open Source (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931247)

Time to trademark Open Source

It already has. It's called Gnu/open source

Neither is really a bazaar (3, Insightful)

fireboy1919 (257783) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931155)

I think calling one a cathedral and the other a bazaar really requires that any developer who wants to actually can create code for other people to use, and that they'll use it if it's good.

There are large barriers to doing that from both the Linux kernel and from Sun. A more bazaar like example is CPAN or sorceforge. Anybody who creates something coherent can have it published there for everyone to use.

Java and Linux are much more limiting. You can't "hawk your wares" in either case. That said, I don't think this should be absolute...more like a scale. Linux is closer to the bazaar than Java, I think.

Java is not Open Source and this is a good thing (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931168)

God I'm sick and tired of this debate. Java is not Open Source and this is a good thing. Honestly. It means that, on the whole, I can write a program in Java and have it work on anything that supports my JVM; if it we OS I'd have to worry the whole time about what bloody flavour of Java you were working with and the software wouldn't quite work the same all the time (basically what Microsoft tried to do with J++ and which Sun sued them for eventually. Much of Java's undeserved reputation for unreliabability can be traced to this). Java is open in the sense that both the source is open (I can download it and read it), and I can also modify it and send the results in to the JCP to have the accepted in a future release of that API (which I've done - I fixed a bug in the Servlet API which was very annoying to me personally). Sun manages and controls this process and I'm quite relaxed about that. If you can separate this from "but it isn't open source because its not an open source license" for a minute then its really not so very different from the way lots of other OS initiatives work (you can download the code, modify it, and send your mods in for someone to include in a future release. The difference here is that you have to do this to get the code out there but that enables Java to maintain compatability, hence it being a good thing).

Sun has also made some major donations to Open Source - Open Office, which is dull but works, and Tomcat, which (if you need a servlet/jsp server) rocks, are two theat spring to mind. Solaris will also be open sourced in due course.

Sun is doing OK - they're digging themselves out a large hole with some success. The CEO may not have much of a clue but I wouldn't write them off just

ESR should respond (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10931189)

To those that are bad-mouthing ESR for responding, I think he should since Schwartz used ESR's reference in making his points.

And Sun doesn't get it completely. I applaud them for everything they have done, but if 'realists' look at whats going on, it seems to me that SUN is in bed with MS and will attempt to push Linux into obscurity if not out-right kill it if it can.

Maybe a third model can be added called Markets and it would more accurately describe SUN. They want to be the store you come to and you pick from the wares they choose to carry, from suppliers they choose, not you. They don't like small distributers and will undercut them until they go under, form unions you have to join to practice, and make laws so the little guy can't compete.

Re:ESR should respond (1)

ShieldW0lf (601553) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931261)

And Sun doesn't get it completely. I applaud them for everything they have done, but if 'realists' look at whats going on, it seems to me that SUN is in bed with MS and will attempt to push Linux into obscurity if not out-right kill it if it can.

And the Linux community isn't trying to do the same to BSD?

Glass houses...

I don't believe that ESR (2, Interesting)

thammoud (193905) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931251)

speaks for the majority of Java developers. Most of us are happy with Sun's stewardship of Java. The platform is solid and feature rich with huge thirparty support. The JCP seems to work albeit slowly. The quality of the specs are very high.

Most Java developers have no intention of modifying or fixing the VM and are simply happy with the wonderful set of libraries available to them (Open source or otherwise).

As of 1.4, the quality of the Java VM has been ver good. JDK 1.5 rocks and the platform is alive and well. Thanks to Sun, IBM and mainly Apache.

Are things perfect? Not by any means. I just can not name one platform that I would substitue Java with to write my business applications.

Re:I don't believe that ESR (1)

16K Ram Pack (690082) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931309)

The debate isn't whether it's better or worse. It's whether it's following a "cathedral" or a "bazaar" model.

Re:I don't believe that ESR (1)

rca66 (818002) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931359)

speaks for the majority of Java developers.

The point is not whether the JCP works well or not, But Schwartz said, Java were more truly Open Source than Linux. And to that ESR answered, especially as his created notion of cathedral and bazaar for describing different approaches for (open) software development were used.

frist, uh (-1, Offtopic)

Knights who say 'INT (708612) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931282)

56th psot!

Honesty (3, Interesting)

Shambhu (198415) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931303)

Things goes to something that has been bothering me recently. This isn't something that is new, I'm sure it's been around as long as we've had intelligent (hah!) expression. But it seems a bit more prevalent recently. I'm talking about presumably basically honest people being willing to misrepresent something to their (perceived) advantage as long as some loose interpretation of their words can be considered to be true. And by 'some' interpretation, I mean an interpretation other than what they hope the majority of their audience will make.

I don't know the first thing about Schartz, so maybe he's just a slime ball or maybe he just didn't understand the underlying concepts of The Cathedral and the Bazaar, but this sort of behaviour seems to be considered fair ball play these days. And I think it is something that should be left behind on the playground. Heck, it wasn't that common on most the playgrounds of my childhood, outside of certain particular types of debates (where it was understood that different rules of conduct held sway).

Am I right? Is there more of this in the public sphere these days? Or is it just the same-old, same-old?

This exactly matches democracy vs free markets (5, Insightful)

Julian Morrison (5575) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931353)

The essence of the bazaar is not voting--a concept I never mentioned in The Cathedral and the Bazaar and don't endorse--but the right to fork.
Democracy: you get a vote, there's a central point of control which, at the culmination of all the votes, ends up bossing people around, and nobody has a legal alternative. Result: if the democracy screws you over for populist causes, or the central point of control gets corrupted, tough luck. Result also: if you're in a numerical minority, your desires will be met coincidentally if at all.

Free markets: nobody has a right to vote how you may or may not act with your own stuff - but if they don't like it, they can get their own stuff and do as they please instead, or go to someone else they prefer. Result: egregious misbehaviour causes a "fork" where customers move away. Also result: not only is the majority happy, but also all profitable minority niches of the market are served.

Not surprising ESR thinks this way considering he's a libertarian and possibly an anarchist :-)

Sun's Decreasing Relevance (-1, Flamebait)

Baldrson (78598) | more than 9 years ago | (#10931373)

Ever since Scott McNealy said [nyud.net] :
I am fighting with our government to allow H1B visas cap to be raised. I was in at the White House talking to the chief of staff to get the H1B visa cap raised. We already half way through the fiscal year, capped out on the number of really bright Israelis and Indians.
It has been downhill for Sun as well as the entire computer industry.

Oh, yes, McNealy and the rest of the computer industry execs did succeed in corrupting Congress with hundreds of millions of political contributions, but they also succeeded in destroying the computer industry and betraying their own stockholders.

What we have now is a jobs program called "Java" for hoards of "programmers" who are a consequence of the political movements in India to dismantle the caste system via their equivalent of affirmative action. After all, you can't give a significant fraction of 1 billion people academic degrees in computer science without giving them "jobs" matching their "skills". So we get lots and lots of Java oozing from organizational structures that do increasingly look like something out of the middle east -- be it a Bazaar or a religious cult.

I'm just wondering whether Sun's executives will be assassinated by international terrorists or by their own stockholders?

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