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HD-DVD Wins Support of 4 Studios

CmdrTaco posted more than 9 years ago | from the start-clearing-landfill-space-for-dvd dept.

Movies 355

An anonymous reader writes "Looks like HD-DVD has won the latest round in the Blu-ray/HD-DVD format war. Toshiba announced today that 4 major studios (Warner,Paramount,Universal, and New Line) have endorsed the HD-DVD format. Toshiba also said it will use AACS for content protection, which is basically just CSS with better crypto & no ability to recover from security failures."

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Plus Minus (5, Insightful)

fembots (753724) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945001)

Since both HD-DVD and blu-ray are using the same blue lasers, will this 'war' eventually turn out to be HD/BR-DVD similar to the DVD+/-R standards.

Toshiba Wins Battle But Loses War to Chinese (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10945095)

Toshiba may have won the battle but is destined to lose the war to the Chinese. Once the format is decided, the Chinese will pirate all the technologies needed to make the new HD-DVD discs. Further, the Chinese will simply pirate all the technologies for building the HD-DVD read/write players [phrusa.org] . Toshiba will receive no royalties from the Chinese. Indeed, Toshiba may be forced to pay royalties to the Chinese when Toshiba sells related products in the Chinese market, for the Chinese companies (with the implicit approval of Beijing) will actually steal Toshiba's American/Japanese patents and apply for Chinese patents on the exact same technology.

The evil mind is capable of almost anything.

Re:Toshiba Wins Battle But Loses War to Chinese (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10945226)

They've been part of the fight to lock us out of fair use of the movies we purchase and use on their players. Now it turns out they've got almost no protection against real intellectual property theft, as the Congress that has been busy figuring out how to sell us out on fair use rights was just as busy selling them out on free trade agreements with countries that don't seem to hold as much stock in intellectual property rights.

Seems like just desserts to me. Especially when you figure the Chinese media players probably won't kowtow to CSS next generation.

Re:Plus Minus (4, Insightful)

gosand (234100) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945143)

Since both HD-DVD and blu-ray are using the same blue lasers, will this 'war' eventually turn out to be HD/BR-DVD similar to the DVD+/-R standards.

Which is fine, provided that commercial equipment can play both formats. It is a bigger deal now because they are talking about releasing content on those formats. That was never an issue with DVD+/-R, where compatability was left to the consumer to figure out. If I am burning my own DVDs, I can stick to whatever format I find works best. If I am buying a DVD from the store, it had just better work.

Re:Plus Minus (1)

magellen (770417) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945326)

slashdotter prepare yourself for the Austin Powers laser jokes :(

Re:Plus Minus (2, Interesting)

magellen (770417) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945352)

so based on this news the PS3 won't be able to play HD discs...ie no dvds on the PS2

Re:Plus Minus (4, Interesting)

Spy Handler (822350) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945472)

I don't think there will be "dual-format" drives that play both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD due to the technical differences between them. (for instance the large disparity in storage size)

In comparison, DVD-R and +R are nearly identical formats... there is almost no difference distinguishing the two. Basically the +R format is a slightly hacked version of the official -R specification to circumvent licensing fees. Note that +R discs do not display the official DVD logo with the circle image.

MS (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10945008)

MS Rules!

How strong is it (4, Interesting)

stecoop (759508) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945014)

Is the format security architecture flexible enough to handle...

A guy using a camcorder while watching his TV

Someone plugging in the composite video to a capture card

Brute Force Attack

To stop me from buying your DVDs

Alginate the Movie Industry

Re:How strong is it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10945063)

Salt the movie industry????

Re:How strong is it (4, Funny)

mblase (200735) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945118)

Alginate the Movie Industry

Alginate [google.com] ? You want to cover them in medical dressings? Or possibly make them thicker and more tasty....

Screen-Scraping to the next level (5, Insightful)

davidwr (791652) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945170)

I predict in 10 years you'll see 3rd-world pirates using fully-digital screen-scrapers to bypass otherwise-unbreakable encryption.

Scrape. Store. Burn. Sell on the street corners.

The studios will never "win," they'll only be able to manage their losses.

In the USA, it will be less of a problem as most middle-class people move to a subscription model, where they can watch what they want when they want to for a fixed monthly fee. This will take away most people's economic incentive to buy bootleg copies.

Sure, you'll still have some domestic piracy, but if the studios price things correctly, it will be drawfed by legitimate users.

Re:Screen-Scraping to the next level (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10945412)

how does subscription allow me to watch a movie on my laptop when I'm on the train travelling to/from work ? Xvid is still the way to go for this at the moment

wireless or crippled DVDs (2, Interesting)

davidwr (791652) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945499)

In 10 years, you'll either be able to d/l it through the either, or make a "crippled" DVD that only works on PCs that can verify your subscription as you watch it.

Alternatively, you'll be able to burn a time-bombed or player-specific version, one that will work FOR 2 DAYS ONLY or one that will work ON YOUR LAPTOP ONLY.

Of course, someday, they'll just beam it straight into your head complete with commercials, a la Futurama [tvtome.com] .

I can't spell ether either (1)

davidwr (791652) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945540)

Either you get your movies through the ether, or you don't.

ETA & MSRP? (0)

glrotate (300695) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945022)

Does anyone know?

Re:ETA & MSRP? (1, Informative)

igny (716218) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945054)

Someone does.

Re:ETA & MSRP? (4, Insightful)

Lumpy (12016) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945520)

it does not matter. the past few days here in the USA DVD player sales were through the roof.

those people are not going to simply cast aside their players and huge DVD collections for the new shiny thing that will force them to buy all their movies yet again.

Unless they wait 5 years so that the consumer doesn't get all pissy when they spend $129.95 on their 7th linited hyper digitally remastered editions of the star wars hexilogy with yoda bouncing first and then have to re-buy it again for the new format.

I do not see any HD DVD content catching on very fast. DVD-audio and sony's offering of higher def audio formats are failing horribly to attract buyers, and with most homes not even considering buying HD televisions soon It looks pretty dismal.

Yes, I own a HD tv, and if they demoed the cable TV signals and off the air signals to me instead of their perfect 1080i DVHS example material I would not have been suckered into it.

I'm just glad I only spent $5500.00 on mine, I'm betting the guy that spent $13K+ on his HD plasma is insanely pissed at the quality of programming available in the real world right now.

the cable company compresses the hell out of the signal to the point that everything looks wierd with the background almost completely still most of the time and artifacts around the actors.

I'd want a high-capacity DVD (1)

davidwr (791652) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945586)

When they break $100 I'll buy a high-capacity DVD, but only if I can get a full season of my favorite TV show all on 1 platter for only $19.95.

Until then, I'll stick to my BetaMax.

Whyyyyyyyyy?! (2, Insightful)

MooseMuffin (799896) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945045)

It seemed like blu-ray was doing so well, and that maybe the winner would be clear cut and consumers wouldnt have to put up with this 2-format crap. Damn you competition, damn you!

Re:Whyyyyyyyyy?! (1)

dgp (11045) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945146)

amen! I was not happy about it, but I was ready to swallow the idea that blu-ray had won the format war. when I read this i thought no!!! just let one format win. one format will win, but it hard to say which one. I think Sony has an ace up its sleeve with the PSP using blu-ray discs.

Re:Whyyyyyyyyy?! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10945178)

u mean PS3, not PSP.

Re:Whyyyyyyyyy?! (1)

MTgeekMAN (700406) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945219)

I think Sony has an ace up its sleeve with the PSP using blu-ray discs.

I believe that the PSP will be using Sony's UMDs or universal media disks.

Re:Whyyyyyyyyy?! (1)

Orgazmus (761208) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945158)

You COULD try a competitionless system. You would only get 512k on the disc, and it would explode when in contact with air, but it would be universal :)

Re:Whyyyyyyyyy?! (1)

shepd (155729) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945538)

Why?

Because Blu-Ray is made by Sony. Like all Sony formats they are almost 100% destined to be ignored and reviled by consumers. The only exception is MiniDisc, which I heard was slightly popular in Europe for a short while. In North America, MiniDisc was as popular as DC electricity to the home.

If there's one thing you can do and never go wrong on, it's "Don't buy the Sony media alternative".

how soon... (0)

Erik Soderstrom (727264) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945050)

... 'til Mr Norwegian hacker cracks the copy protection?

More and more we see (5, Insightful)

slycer9 (264565) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945062)

That instead of competition leading to advancements and improvements for the consumer, it's more often competition AGAINST fair USE for the consumer.

Re:More and more we see (1)

JaffaKREE (766802) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945124)

Also nice how they have decided to endorse the format with 20GB less per disc - If anything this seems like a massive selling point, at least from my perspective. 40-50GB vs 30GB is not a small difference.

Not on your life. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10945078)

"The AACS Licensing Authority has proposed the use of subset-difference trees with AES encryption, which provides strong player revocation and key management, but does not include system renewability. Cryptography Research has proposed Self-Protecting Digital Content(TM), which provides system renewability and forensic marking, but does not include key management. A complete solution that includes strong key management and a well-designed security virtual machine is crucial; an incomplete approach provides little or no value because attackers will simply exploit the missing links."

Yeah, tell ya what, how about i *not* ever buy any of this and you ditch that idea. Sound good?

Re:Not on your life. (2)

CaptnMArk (9003) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945216)

I'll buy these only after DE-AACS

(I don't have a non-computer DVD player).

Re:Not on your life. (4, Interesting)

Coryoth (254751) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945263)

The AACS Licensing Authority has proposed the use of subset-difference trees with AES encryption,

That sounds nice because AES is strong by most standards (there is a theoretical attack that is faster than brute force, but only very marginally better - in reality it is jst as impractical). The catch is that you still have to decrypt the content at the client end for viewing. Unless you include unique serial numbers in the packaging that the user has to input each time (yeah right), or require the DVD player to be internet connected and download keys, the key has to be on the DVD. From there it's just a matter (okay, not simple, but still) of reverse engineering the unlocking procedure to find where/how it gets/decrypts the necessary key, and we're back where we started.

Personally I loathe DVD encryption just for the region encoding alone. I used to travel a lot (and may well do a lot more travelling in future), so my DVD collection is a hopeless mess of different regions. Worse, when living in the Asia-Pacific region there were any number of interesting DVDs that simply weren't released there (usually more obscure art-house films). The only solution was to order them from overseas...

region encoding is silly. It's supposed to protect film distributors who distribute their films at ifferent times to different markets - but with the ever growing popularity of simultaneous worldwide releases (or releases separated by weeks at most) that isn't a very relevant argument. Instead it is being used to provide regional DVD distributors with a monopoly so they can price gouge.

Jedidiah.

Re:Not on your life. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10945591)

No one cares if you buy it or not. Whiny slashdot server room nerds are not anyones target market.

So, what's next? (2, Interesting)

mblase (200735) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945080)

Seriously. HDTV is on its way to taking over whether the market likes it or not; I can live with it, I acknowledge its advantages, I just wish that capitalism had been allowed to govern its adoption instead of Congress.

At least the need for a HD-DVD format is consumer-driven. I forget whether this particular format is compatible with existing DVD players or not, though.

But what's next? Is there even industry talk about a post-HDTV video format? 3D video, maybe? Lossless video compression? What will the industry R&D teams do once they've got HD-DVD out the door and China's manufacturing players for US$30 again?

HDTV != DTV (5, Informative)

The Cisco Kid (31490) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945169)

The mandate makes absolutely no requirement that broadcasts be HD (High Def) - only that they stop using analog transmission and go to digital. The FCC's motiviation is to get a lot of spectum back, and MPAA/broadcasters motiviation is they get the 'do not copy' concept.

While I wouldnt mind if the spectrum was freed so that there could be some unlicensed bands to enable 802.11 style equipment for consumer use, I'm sure licenses for the newly freed TV bands will be auctioned off to megacorps instead. I'm just hoping that they dont just sit on them to prevent competition for high speed services.

Why do so many people confuse High Def and Digital - they are *NOT* the same thing, nor do they always go hand in hand.

You *CAN* broadcast HighDef in analog, and you *CAN* broadcast digital, and still be using standard definition (and if stations are forced go digital, it isnt all that likely that they will switch to HighDef)

3 Reasons (0)

Overzeetop (214511) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945378)

1)
HDTV != play on my tv
DTV != play on my tv

therefor HDTV=DTV

2)
RIGHT$("HDTV",3)="DTV", the H is irrelevant, and only used by geeks

3)
Everybody pumped up HDTV for its digital basis, and the marketers knew that digital sounded better than analog to consumers. When broadcasters (incl satellite and cable) realized that "digital" was a more powerful a marketing tool then "high definition" (shorter, more understandable), and that they could provide marginal-quality, but acceptable, digital signals with less effort/money and higher ROI, it was just a CEO stamp away from throwing HD out the window and overnight the mantra "HDTV is coming" to "Digital TV is here."

Re:So, what's next? (1)

Pope (17780) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945486)

"Capitalism" was allowed to guide the adoptio: lobbyists from the Tv networks and film studios bitched and moaned that they didn't want Congress to force a single HDTV standard on them, and Congree agreed. That's what there are 420p, 720p, and 1080i standards, all out competing with one another, and all incompatible with each other. Versus, you know, the rest of the world, who simply picked ONE and used it.

Remember, competition is "good," LMAO.

Re:So, what's next? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10945611)

Lossless video compression?
No. Even most efficient "lossless" compresion will be order of magnitude worse than lossy one. For the same bitrate you can get much higher resolution etc. Remember: "Lossless" is lossy as well: it approximates to the quantitized spatial coordinates and color levels/depth. Very unefficient level of compression.

lossless = lousy lossy compression

HD and BR both have entertainment value (5, Insightful)

Fr05t (69968) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945091)

or at least the monkey poo fight we will see in the next few years. Anyone know which one the porn industry is backing? I'll put my money on that format.

Re:HD and BR both have entertainment value (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10945166)

> Anyone know which one the porn industry is backing? I'll put my money on that format.

I don't think I want to see porn in high definition. Seeing all the blemishes, pimples, and imperfections will detract, not enhance, the experience.

Re:HD and BR both have entertainment value (2, Insightful)

WormholeFiend (674934) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945242)

I don't think I want to see porn in high definition. Seeing all the blemishes, pimples, and imperfections will detract, not enhance, the experience.

I disagree.

The "home-made" segment of that industry has become very popular in the face of plastic-surgerized actresses and actors to make them look "more perfect".

Hopefully this is what will also result in cheaper massmarket HD camcorders, for, uh, home use. And stuff.

Re:HD and BR both have entertainment value (1)

Fr05t (69968) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945449)

Yes the home grown stuff on the web is definately getting popular.. so popular in fact they are putting out DVDs and joining the main stream porn industry.

However that aside mainstream porn is a billion dollar a year business
(http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/ 21/60minut es/main585049.shtml)
and has lots of political and corporate clout.

Although I can't confirm it I've been told one large factor in VHS winning out over Betamax was the porn backing VHS.

Re:HD and BR both have entertainment value (1)

jkujawa (56195) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945623)

Anyone know which one the porn industry is backing

Does it matter? It'll all be mastered from something camcorder-quality anyway. I don't know if I've ever seen a porn DVD that had decent quality, other than Andrew Blake stuff.

blasphemy (1)

poningru (831416) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945102)

getting an article from a desi website. The US nerd gods will be there shortly to punish you. ;) Even though this will help HD in the fight against Blue-Ray, it certainly will not win the format war.

Re:blasphemy (1)

JaffaKREE (766802) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945145)

well, technically HD-DVD *is* blue ray. The competing format is called "Blu-Ray", which is sort of confusing (not to us, to other people) because they both use a blue ray (laser).

Windows Media 9 (5, Interesting)

bm17 (834529) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945130)

Just a reminder: Both HD-DVD and Blu-ray now require the implementation of Windows Media 9 (now VC-9, or VC-1 depending on who you ask). This means that anyone using a computer to play DVDs may be subject to Microsoft licensing restrictions. Current DVDs use MPEG2 and the there doesn't seem to be much of a problem with non-profit use of it. I don't know that Microsoft is going to be so benevolent. Have they made any statements about open-source usage? They do seem to be a bit down on that lately.

Also, anyone know how the decision is made to encode a DVD using MPEG2, MPEG4 or WM9?

Re:Windows Media 9 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10945218)

Good, that means I won't have to pay for WinDVD or other unnecessary crap software just to play a DVD.

Re:Windows Media 9 (2, Informative)

the_2nd_coming (444906) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945222)

umm, actually, no. HD dropped it because MS lied about its abilities.

Re:Windows Media 9 (1)

protohiro1 (590732) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945259)

Really? That is good news. Where did you hear that?

Re:Windows Media 9 (2, Informative)

PeeCee (678651) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945610)

HD dropped it because MS lied about its abilities.
Where did you hear that?

Here [slashdot.org] . But it says they were considering dropping the WMV format... who knows what'll happen in the end.

Proprietary codecs in a standard are nothing new. (5, Insightful)

Hobart (32767) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945344)

Just a reminder: Both HD-DVD and Blu-ray now require the implementation of Windows Media 9 (now VC-9, or VC-1 depending on who you ask). This means that anyone using a computer to play DVDs may be subject to Microsoft licensing restrictions.
Just a reminder: DVD and ATSC (American digital television spec, mandated by law) require the implementation of Dolby Labs AC3. This means anyone using a computer to play DVDs, or using a computer to watch broadcast television may be subject to Dolby licensing restrictions.

Just a reminder: VideoCD (MPEG-1) requires the implementation of The Fraunhofer-Gesellschaft Layer 3 algorithm. This means anyone using a computer to play Video CDs or listen to .MP3 music files may be subject to Fraunhofer licensing restrictions.

At the moment, Fraunhofer, for example, realize the futility of prosecuting implementations of software-only MP3 decoders. This does not mean they do not have the right to file lawsuits against the users and producers of such, even, should they so desire, to the point of requiring per-use license payments.

The ogg / vorbis / theora solutions that the industry is paying no attention to are the only specs that are free of this insanity. But don't get all worked up just because Microsoft was the company whose codec was chosen instead of one of the other evil companies in mpegla.com [mpegla.com] 's portfolio, unless you want to be thought of as this guy. [penny-arcade.com]

None of the others have $50 billion in the bank (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10945539)

Nor were they willing to use it to protect and extend a monopoly found by law to be illegally obtained.

Anyone who thinks giving Microsoft the keys to any digital content is anywhere in the same universe as a good idea is either totally brain dead or on the Redmond payroll - and those two are not mutually exclusive.

Re:Proprietary codecs in a standard are nothing ne (3, Insightful)

crow (16139) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945584)

As to AC3, can't you just pipe the raw stream out a digital port from your computer to your sound system? If you have a surround sound system, they've already paid for a patent license to decode the AC3, so your computer can let it do the work and avoid the patent issue.

DVD Don (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10945155)

Just wait a month and DVD Don will post a bypass to the new encryption.

Re:DVD Don - Oh yeah! I've heard of him. (1)

Weaselmancer (533834) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945423)

That's DVD Jon's [nanocrew.net] hi-definition brother.

WTF? (3, Insightful)

sahonen (680948) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945198)

From TFA:
Revocation can help contain some attacks by preventing future titles from playing on a pre-chosen set of players. For example, if studios learn that pirates have hacked a player with a specific serial number, revocation makes it possible to author future titles so they will never play on that player.

So just because you own a DVD player that was hacked, you won't be able to play future DVDs? That's a load of crap.

Re:WTF? (1)

Trick (3648) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945467)

Disclaimer: The MPAA Sucks! Screw 'em!

Now that that's out of the way... they're saying that if your *specific* DVD player was used to create illegal copies of a DVD, that were later distributed, they can make sure later DVDs don't work on it, so you don't illegally distribute those, too.

While I think this whole proposition sucks, this is one of the few parts of it I don't have a problem with. If they can confirm that you're doing illegal stuff with the DVDs they sell you (see the sections on forensic marking to see how they plan to figure out your serial number), I don't have a problem with them doing what they can to make sure you don't do it again.

Re:WTF? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10945471)

If you read the next paragraph it says that damage to the normal consumer makes that option unacceptable.

Re:WTF? (2, Insightful)

Josuah (26407) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945487)

If you read further, you would see that they declare this approach not acceptable for that very reason.

Re:WTF? (1)

k98sven (324383) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945494)

So just because you own a DVD player that was hacked, you won't be able to play future DVDs? That's a load of crap.

Yes, it's a load of crap. First because it's not an article.. It's a marketing piece which is about to contrast this situation to Their Solution(TM).

Re:WTF? (2, Informative)

shades6666 (657396) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945516)

So just because you own a DVD player that was hacked, you won't be able to play future DVDs? That's a load of crap.

I'm not sure if you're trolling for people who haven't read the article or posted before you finished reading it yourself, but the paragraph you quoted was arguing against revocation. It's quite clear from the next two paragraphs and the first requirement listed.

From TFA: Revocation is completely ineffective, however, if pirates develop tools or instructions for hacking a popular player model. This is the most common kind of security failure in consumer devices, because attackers who have figured out how to compromise one device can repeat the same technique against others with the same design. While some revocation technologies could shut off all players in an entire model line, the harm caused to legitimate consumers makes this unacceptable.

SPDC and Format Security Formats with Self-Protecting Digital Content(TM) solve this problem by enabling discs to carry their own security software that runs in a tiny security interpreter (VM) in each player. This software can identify and correct security problems in the player, re-establishing secure playback without revoking legitimate users' players. This capability is called system renewability or true renewability.

Requirement #1: High-definition disc formats must support renewable security logic.

Re:WTF? (2, Interesting)

windowpain (211052) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945616)

The statement is ambiguous. The term "pre-chosen set" certainly appears to mean a particular model. But that would be insane.

The article also uses the term "serial number" which would seem to me to indicate one particular player in the whole world. Your kid hacks your player and through revocation it can no longer play disks. That's reasonable. You slap the kid upside his head, make him pay for a new player and you're back in business.

I'd like them clarify what they mean.

AACS Encryption questions. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10945201)

Has anyone else had problems with the AACS crack not playing the first minute of a film?
They play fine on my HD-DVD player, but when I rip it, it's missing a bit at the start. It's not always a minute, but more than 30 seconds are missing every time.
Are there any other cracks around other than the first one that came out? I hope this gets fixed soon.

Re:AACS Encryption questions. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10945306)

You need to use the modified DirectShow filter tap replace, with overlay emulation and macrovision feedback spoof on vid end, else the decoder path refuses to setup video stream end-to-end to the render filter (video card spoof layer).

Regardless the HD content is still POSSIBLY watermarked and needs recompress to hide your GUID and ultimately your IP address, plus the data is uncompressed when presented to the video layer anyways.

But it works for the content, no such 30 second drop for me on terminator 2 for example.

I'd post the code but then MS would just add it to the banned filter list in WMP/directshow and newbies that allow the machine to connect to MS would kill my tool. you can get it to work, its trivial.

Re:AACS Encryption questions. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10945408)

Thanks! worked like charm!

Very misleading (3, Insightful)

JoeShmoe (90109) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945204)

I rarely take the time to criticize a Slashdot editor, but this posting is terribly confusing.

Which is it?

Is the format using "CSS with stronger encryption" in other words...once some company makes a mistake and puts the key in the clear (like Xing did with the original CSS key) then it's game over, have a field day with HD content...

Or is it some kind of improved system that uses any of the principles in the cryptography.com article? The stuff in that article would scare the pants off anyone who believes in fair use rights and using any tactics necessary to secure them. Thankfully, it sounds like this articles is merely pointing out the dream and there doesn't exist such a magic bullet.

But judging by the replies to this articles, it already looks like people are bemoaning and wailing the lost of fair use rights thanks to this unbelievably draconiam new system.

My reading leads me to believe that we should all be very very quiet, wait for HD to reach a nice sizeable market penetration, then wait for the key to appear and bring about DeCSS round II.

-JoeShmoe
.

Re:Very misleading (2, Interesting)

k98sven (324383) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945357)

Or is it some kind of improved system that uses any of the principles in the cryptography.com article? The stuff in that article would scare the pants off anyone who believes in fair use rights and using any tactics necessary to secure them. Thankfully, it sounds like this articles is merely pointing out the dream and there doesn't exist such a magic bullet.

Of course it does.. it's not an article! It's marketing from Cryptography Research pushing their 'solution'.

And I must say, I'm not convinced. They propose having security oftware on the discs, running on a little virtual machine in the player. Supposedly, this would help against compromised players.

I can't exactly see how that would work if the VM was compromised.

Re:Very misleading (1)

IamTheRealMike (537420) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945450)

It wasn't so much Xing leaking a key that undid CSS, it was the fact that the keys were mathematically related and so could be brute forced in about a week with a fast computer.

If the key generation algorithm had been done correctly, DeCSS may not have been possible.

Re:Very misleading (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10945483)

AACS is a candidate for protecting HD DVD and Blu-ray. It is CSS on steroids and you are right that it has the exact same problem you mentioned. Once key(s) are released, it fails. SPDC is also a candidate and it is more flexible. It involves putting code on the disk in addition to the movie and running it in a VM. The code does all or part of the decryption so it is not just key based like AACS.

I found this technical overview of SPDC [cryptography.com] that explains this and other things.

Sony formats more expensive? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10945214)

arent sony's formats always more expensive and proprietary instead of standards? e.g. Compact Flash vs the Memory Stick, or thier use of Atrac.

its fine to use your own formats, but against standards and cheaper ways is just foolish.

sony could always go with blu-ray in the next gen console (ps2 was the cheapest dvd player in japan). and make a split like vhs/betamax, dvd/divx (that was so stupid), dvd-r vs dvd+r and countless others.

i just hope, whoever wins, that the outcome is cheaper price, easy to manufacture, good quality, and easy to crack/non-existant encryption :)

This is how you create a vast pirate market (4, Insightful)

SuperKendall (25149) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945224)

By deciding to split the market asunder, the companies that cannot agree on one standard are instead creating a huge group of people that will just say "screw it", not buy either player, and download rips of HD-DVD/Blu-Ray DVD's that they can play on a computer hooked to the TV (becoming more common and certainly more comon in a year or two).

Who is going to buy either kind of player when there's such an open question as to which will succeed?

Re:This is how you create a vast pirate market (2, Interesting)

d_strand (674412) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945340)

I agree. Only in this particular case the war will end with all players being able to play both HD and Blu-ray. Blu-ray wont die because Sony and pretty much every electronics company except NEC and Toshiba backs it, and Sony owns several movie studios and is the worlds largest home electronics producer, and also the ps3 will use Blu-ray ensuring a decent installbase.

And (important) the movie companies that just announced HD-DVD support hasn't made their support exclusive, meaning thay can also support Blu-Ray at the same time if they want (which they will).

Pirates or users? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10945249)

Unfortunately, pirates will attack high-definition disc formats.

It should be noted that the DVD content scrambling system failed not under the attack of pirates but due to legal owners of encrypted media striving to play them on an open source operating system. I think there's a lesson to be learned from that.

Too Little,Too Late (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10945261)

BRD has the format war won long ago.

But, hey, nock yourself out, and pick up a HD-DVD player. Maybe you can ebay it someday.

Makes me feel dirty (4, Interesting)

Overzeetop (214511) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945299)

That article from cryptography.com, should it's seggestions come to pass, would prevent me from making copies of my discs so that my 2 year old wouldn't trash the originals. It would even prevent me from ripping all discs to a server, and making a special remote interface for her.

What's most interesting is that "real" pirates (pressing discs for mass distribution) would likely be able to circumvent all these measures with a bit-accurate re-press. *shrug* At least we know who the industry is really worried about when they talk about pirates...you and me.

BTW, yes, my 2 year old knows how to load a DVD player, and I print the discs so she knows which is which. I reauthor them so that the movie starts immediately without user interaction. I haven't figured out how to make her understand that the top-loading CD player in her room won't play three discs stacked like records, though. ;-) (On a side note, I was impressed/suprised to find out that it will function just fine with two discs in the player at once.)

Where's the problem? (2, Insightful)

HarveyBirdman (627248) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945447)

would prevent me from making copies of my discs so that my 2 year old wouldn't trash the originals

By the time this format is the standard, your kid will be, like, twelve or something. :)

Upgrades? (1)

antdude (79039) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945303)

Does this mean people will have to upgrade their current DVD players/drives to use this new DVD technology?

Yes! But it will happen automatically!! (1)

HarveyBirdman (627248) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945416)

Does this mean people will have to upgrade their current DVD players/drives to use this new DVD technology?

Sure. It'll just be a firmware patch automatically downloaded to your DVD player through the, um, power cord by, um, the Department Of... uh... The Interior.

Re:Upgrades? (1)

Carbonite (183181) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945432)

Doubtful. There won't be a market for DVD player upgrades because the upgrades couldn't cost much less than a brand new HD-DVD player

Re:Upgrades? (1)

Overzeetop (214511) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945446)

Uh, yes.

But more importantly, with the first suggestion on c.com, you'd be expected to upgrade your player every few months, after the last one was hacked. (This is suggested as a problem in the article, but - suprisingly - is only considered undesirable when applied to either a very popular model or an entire manufacturers line. So make sure you get a really, really popular HD-DVD player, just in case. Actually, I see class action written all over this, even for low-moderate number players)

DMCA vs "Conventional Copyright" (4, Insightful)

Trillian_1138 (221423) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945314)

My favorite quote from the last link in the summary (on format security) would have to be the following:

"In the U.S., the Digital Millennium Copyright Act prohibits unauthorized circumvention. Outside the U.S., however, many jurisdictions only have conventional copyright laws that only protect creative works. Normal decryption keys do not include any obvious creative element."

Now, jumping to the Constitution ("To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries") it is not clear that copyright must *only* be granted to works with "obvious creative element." But I liked the fact that the above comment on future security requirements acknowledged what seems to be much of Slashdot (and the tech community's) beef with copyrighting algorithms and computer software, but from the assumption that it's a GOOD thing, rather than a BAD thing.

Just an example of how you can agree on the issue while still having mutually exclusive views on the sollution.

-Trillian

firs7 post (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10945322)

Even if... (1)

Searinox (833879) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945334)

the encryption is as powerful as they claim it to be, there will always be someone who breaks it.

Re:Even if... (2, Informative)

elfezzer (344320) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945470)

The author(s) of the cryptography.com article agree with you (though it seems likely that the encryption itself will not be the primary subject of attack):

Unfortunately, pirates will attack high-definition disc formats. Due to the large number of different player designs and usage scenarios, some attacks will succeed. As a result, long-term format security depends on having the ability to recover effectively.


Revocation can help contain some attacks by preventing future titles from playing on a pre-chosen set of players. For example, if studios learn that pirates have hacked a player with a specific serial number, revocation makes it possible to author future titles so they will never play on that player.

I give up... Video on Demand or nothing. 8) (1)

Not_Wiggins (686627) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945362)

For computer use, WHO CARES which format gets adopted? Personally, I'd go for the one that lasts longer and has better error recovery (ie, I don't have to worry about my 50G of data going bad too quickly).

But for the consumer movie market, I'm just about ready to give up on this whole thing. One has to ask: do you want to keep buying movies over and over as a new format comes out? VHS? Then DVD? Then Blu-Ray? We keep updating... jumping as a new format comes out. And part of the reason they keep coming out with a new format (outside of the obvious marketing benefits listed above... resale of the same art again and again) is to override pirating concerns.

I give up. You want control? Great. Give me video on demand so I can watch what I want when I want and pay a nominal fee to do so. Then they can upgrade the quality of the copy "behind the scenes" to their heart's content.

WSJ Article (1)

Flave (193808) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945373)

More detailed article in the Wall Street Journal. Note that the article states that this deal is non-exclusive. There is nothing preventing these studios from also announcing support for Blu-ray in future.

Studios Strike HD-DVD Deals For Holiday 2005

By SARAH MCBRIDE and PHRED DVORAK
Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
November 29, 2004; Page B1

With holiday shoppers gobbling up millions of popular DVDs over the weekend, Toshiba Corp. and three major movie studios are expected Monday to announce plans to make new high-definition DVDs available by Christmas 2005.

According to people familiar with the matter, the studios -- including Viacom Inc.'s Paramount, General Electric Co.'s Universal Studios, and Time Warner Inc.'s Warner Bros. -- are planning to release up to two dozen titles each in time for next year's holiday season in the so-called HD-DVD format that is backed by a group of Toshiba-led partners.

The move shows that Hollywood is getting serious about moving ahead with the "next generation" DVD format, which it so far has been reluctant to embrace. The new discs promise super-sharp resolution and bonus interaction features when played on high-definition televisions and via new high-definition DVD players. But the discs are especially appealing to the studios because they use super-secure copy protection that makes them less vulnerable to piracy than today's easily copied standard DVDs.

Today's announcement gives the Toshiba group a leg up, for the time being, in a burgeoning format war over the next-generation of DVDs. Sony Corp. has spearheaded a rival technology called Blu-ray, which it is pushing hard in part because its technology for the current generation of DVDs mostly lost out to Toshiba's -- with very little Sony technology winding up in today's standard DVDs. And in the early 1980s, its Betamax technology for videocasettes lost out to Victor Co. of Japan Ltd.'s VHS format.

Hoping to avoid another failure, Sony has been aggressively lining up partners for its Blu-ray format. At this point, the earliest that movies could be issued in the Blu-ray format would be 2006. Still, Blu-ray has far more manufacturers and consumer-electronics partners on board than the Toshiba group. And Blu-ray discs can hold far more material than HD DVD, allowing studios that distribute TV shows, for example, to pack more episodes on a single disc, or to throw in more bonus features.

Despite today's announcement by Toshiba, Blu-ray remains a strong contender. Firmly in its camp: Sony's powerhouse Columbia Pictures, along with the studio it is in the process of acquiring, Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Inc. And the deals Toshiba is making with studios aren't exclusive -- the same studios could also make software deals with Blu-ray.

All studios are anxious to avoid another Betamax/VHS-style format war, however, because they don't want to confuse consumers by releasing their movies in many similar-looking disc formats -- or annoy them if the format they choose is off the market in a couple of years. Studio executives say it would be best if one technology scored a clear win over the other or if the two camps could compromise so both new versions could play on the same player.

Although millions of Americans have yet to buy even a standard DVD player, Hollywood has been plotting the next generation of DVD for years. Until recently, studios figured they should delay the next generation for as long as they could, maximizing sales in the current format. But the studios have been speeding up their plans lately as sales of standard DVD players have tapered off. Amid signs that piracy is cutting into sales far more than predicted, the studios also reason that they should move more quickly toward the new technology because of its superior antipiracy features.

Thus, the studios want to get started making next-generation DVD a hot product for next Christmas and beyond. Such efforts are typically slow to bulid; the first year DVD players came out, only 300,000 players sold; studios anticipate a similarly slow pickup for next-generation DVD.

To get things going next year, the studios plan to offer what they expect will be top-selling new releases. That means special-effects packed movies aimed toward affluent men, perhaps films like Paramount's Steven Spielberg-directed "War of the Worlds," Universal's "Doom," and Warner Bros.' "Batman Begins." Those are expected out next summer, in plenty of time to get on DVD by the holidays.

A holiday rollout is key, studios say, because that's the time when people are most likely to drop the big bucks needed to switch over to the new format. By next Christmas, an HD-DVD player should cost around $1,000. To work properly, it needs a pricey high-definition TV. By Christmas 2006, the prices are expected to drop to $500 for a player.

The next-generation players also are expected to play current DVDs; players ready in the U.S. market by the end of 2005 could include Blu-ray players from Sony; Blu-ray DVD drives for computers from Hewlett-Packard Co.; HD-DVD players from Toshiba; and HD-DVD drives from NEC Corp. as well as a joint venture of Toshiba and Samsung Electronics Co.

Both Sony, Toshiba, and their respective allies are also furiously working to win over companies that make the players -- and particularly businesses that etch and stamp the discs themselves. Both sides claim they have lined up the parts -- such as lasers, drives and lenses -- that they need to make players next year. Indeed, major DVD-drive maker Sanyo Electric Co. was showing both Blu-ray- and HD-DVD-compatible parts at a recent Tokyo-area electronics show.

More technology companies, however, are hedging their bets as Blu-Ray and HD DVD duke it out. Samsung Electronics, a member of the Blu-ray camp, may make HD-DVD players next year, people familiar with the situation said. Microsoft Corp. is providing its video compression technology to both HD-DVD and Blu-ray formats. And disc makers are already readying production lines on the assumption that they will have to make both formats.

Proving that the discs can be manufactured easily and cheaply will also be extremely important to Hollywood, as they start taking a hard look at bottom lines for the new business. If Hollywood is going to order up large numbers of high-definition discs in time for next Christmas, the disc makers have to start buying new equipment and running trials in the next few months.

Toshiba's HD DVDs are very similar to existing DVDs, and could use much of the same equipment to make them. That means it's quicker and cheaper, for now, to make HD DVDs than Blu-Ray discs." It's all a matter of [disc-making] infrastructure," says Kanji Katsuura, chief technical officer at Memory-Tech Corp., a Japanese disc maker that's supporting the Toshiba-led effort. "If the infrastructure is in place, Hollywood won't be able to ignore it."

For the past few months, Memory-Tech and Toshiba have been promoting a manufacturing line that can make both DVDs and HD-DVD discs, changing between the two in only five minutes. The companies argue that such dual-purpose equipment will make it easier for disc makers to invest in a brand-new technology, especially when nobody can predict how fast high-definition discs will actually catch on. When HD DVD demand picks up, the dual-purpose machines can press high-definition discs; until then, they can be used to make DVDs, which are still seeing strong demand.

"If you're going to add new DVD lines anyway, why not add ones that can make HD DVD discs too?" says Mr. Katsuura.

Sony, on the other hand, has been trying to land orders for Blu-ray-specific manufacturing machines from big disc pressers or equipment makers. It's trying to sell disc makers a special machine it developed to etch the data on a master disc used for stamping -- though it hasn't clinched a sale yet.

And this week, Sony is expected to announce an agreement to work on Blu-ray disc-making equipment with Germany's

Singulus Technologies

AG, one of the world's biggest manufacturers of machines that produce CDs and DVDs. The two companies are planning to have prototype Blu-ray production lines ready by the middle of 2005 -- meaning mass production of Blu-Ray discs could start around early 2006.

These formats won't take off... (4, Insightful)

vectrex (16314) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945388)

There was a big leap between VHS and DVD that really added to the migration and the adoption of DVD by the consumer.

My guess is that HD-DVD and Blu-ray will go the way of Minidisc. They don't add anything remotely interresting for the average consumer. The average consumer is still buying Full-Screen edition of the movies. They won't put any money on those new formats any time soon.

Unless they pull the plug on the DVD format. Which won't happen anytime soon.

Holy Lock-Out, Batman (1)

GMFTatsujin (239569) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945397)

The question-and-answer section on this page [cryptography.com] are certainly informative. It looks like the security technology will be self-updating so that after a particular player's key is gained and resultant piracy detected, future HD-DVDs will not play on that model.

There are a lot of states SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS to address that problem.

However, at no point (that I could detect) does the Q&A bring up a SYSTEM REQUIREMENT for the following scenario: What happens to legitimate purchasers of a given player that gets hacked, and therefore locked out, by somebody else?

In other words, is the locking out of particular players specific to a particular player (by serial number or whatever) thereby locking out only one person, or does the entire set of like models get locked out thereby locking out everyone who purchased that model?

Re:Holy Lock-Out, Batman (1)

Trick (3648) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945525)

They address this in TFA:

"Revocation can help contain some attacks by preventing future titles from playing on a pre-chosen set of players. For example, if studios learn that pirates have hacked a player with a specific serial number, revocation makes it possible to author future titles so they will never play on that player.

Revocation is completely ineffective, however, if pirates develop tools or instructions for hacking a popular player model. This is the most common kind of security failure in consumer devices, because attackers who have figured out how to compromise one device can repeat the same technique against others with the same design. While some revocation technologies could shut off all players in an entire model line, the harm caused to legitimate consumers makes this unacceptable."

Self-Protecting Digital Content? (1)

Ajmuller (88594) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945448)

from
http://www.cryptography.com/technology/spdc/ format Requirements.html#Question_1

Formats with Self-Protecting Digital Content(TM) solve this problem by enabling discs to carry their own security software that runs in a tiny security interpreter (VM) in each player. This software can identify and correct security problems in the player, re-establishing secure playback without revoking legitimate users' players. This capability is called system renewability or true renewability.


This sounds like the software they put on some audio CD's that would autorun and silently install itself preventing you from copying the CD. And, let's not forget we defeated that by pushing the shift key, no doubt the fix for this will be somewhat more complicated than that, but probably not by much.

Dear Hollywood (3, Insightful)

AnalogDiehard (199128) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945465)

I have left the upgrade treadmill on the sidewalk. My VHS player was displaced only two years ago with a DVD/VHS player and I am not going to repeat my investment in media in order to perpetuate your business model.

HD DVD has no significant features that are of value to me. Instead of focusing on new technologies, perhaps you should divert your precious R&D resources to providing better content.

With love,
The Consumer

Yeah! Another reason to buy Mac (1)

DebianDog (472284) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945479)

AVC/H.264/MPEG-4 part 10/HD DVD format - whatever you want to call it... built in to Tiger [apple.com]

Now we can only hope M$ does not fuck it up like they did with old MPEG-4 format.

Acronym Collision (5, Funny)

HarveyBirdman (627248) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945496)

CSS with better crypto

I started at that for a full twenty seconds thinking, "What the hell kind of crypto is involved with cascading stylesheets?"

Missing the mark? (2, Informative)

GoRK (10018) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945500)

SPDC and Format Security

Formats with Self-Protecting Digital Content(TM) solve this problem by enabling discs to carry their own security software that runs in a tiny security interpreter (VM) in each player. This software can identify and correct security problems in the player, re-establishing secure playback without revoking legitimate users' players. This capability is called system renewability or true renewability.


Who thought this up? Emulation of a player's security VM in software would eliminate the renewability of the security anyway, just as a comprimised key would. You'd have to resort to revoking the ability of a certain hacked or emulated VM to decrypt the content anyway.

This whole thing is asinine. With the right equipment you can make bit-for-bit copies of CSS-protected DVD's, thus "pirating" them withouth having to break any security whatsoever. It would be reasonable to assume this may be possible with any HD disc format as well. With any HD player, unless you integrate the codec processor into the security processor, you can probably build some hardware to get at the decrypted datastream too (169time.com [169time.com] does this type of hack).

DirecTV and digital cable and all that use this same model, only this replaces the smartcard with essentially a more limited type of smartcard on each disc. The model works with directv because to hack it you must be able to decrypt the live stream for immediate viewing. With a DVD this is not the case - you only need to be able to decrypt it once then distribute the decrypted copy. Only one person need have a hacked piece of hardware to accomplish this. This is where the true "priacy" is taking place anyawy. All this new junk does is just make players more expensive and discs harder to watch.

favorite quotes (1)

fsterman (519061) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945517)

"Revocation can help contain some attacks by preventing future titles from playing on a pre-chosen set of players. For example, if studios learn that pirates have hacked a player with a specific serial number, revocation makes it possible to author future titles so they will never play on that player."

Yeah, so they can one by one stop the hackers, who can just spoof the serial number on their computer. And of course $30 HD-DVD players will come about.

Doh! REFA (1)

fsterman (519061) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945608)

Didn't Read the Entire Fucking Article

A Spensive (2, Funny)

Eric Coleman (833730) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945552)

How many times are we going to be forced to buy Star Wars? Laser Disk, VHS twice (original and updated versions), DVD, and sometime in the future HD DVD. And by that time it will be a 6 movie set. Lucas sure does dig deep in the pockets.

OT: 'clearning' (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#10945580)

Hmm... so Taco uses a Dvorak (or similar) keyboard layout... (note that the 'r' and 'n' keys are vertically adjacent under the standard Dvorak layout).

it's time for (1)

Morph233 (744764) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945581)

A new star wars to be released on newer super duper HD quality DVD's then a BLUE version. As George Lucas would say... the force is here and damn I'm going to be rich again after the last 2 (maybe 3) movies sucked.

DVD quality sucks (1)

oexeo (816786) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945594)

Really, I watch any DVD, despite the supposed "high-quality" I should be getting everything on screen seems strangely artificial, to be honest the quality is vial, the image on-screen senseless jumps around, always the obnoxious wooden noises painfully forcing themselves through the speaker holes, and often everything on-screen is completely unintelligible to the human eye.

The the sound and picture quality is awesome though.

pirate (1)

spottedkangaroo (451692) | more than 9 years ago | (#10945597)

I read some of that stupid spdc q&a... I eventually had to just stop though.

My mind rejects the term pirate. At what point did they run their boats up along side the MPAA and take something from them?

It's not piracy. It's something else. It may be a crime, but it's not piracy.

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