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Beating Roulette With Computers & Lasers

CmdrTaco posted more than 9 years ago | from the games-people-play-for-cold-hard-cash dept.

The Almighty Buck 219

MeerCat writes "The BBC are reporting that a group of gamblers who won more than £1m at the Ritz Casino by using laser technology have been told by police they can keep their winnings. A laser scanner linked to a computer was allegedly used to gauge numbers likely to come up on the roulette wheel. Of course this could be Labour spin to try and get people excited about the idea of cheating at mega casinos"

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heh (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11001600)

you said *beat it*

www.fark.com (1)

Fecal Troll Matter (445929) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001649)

Had this story first.

Gimme! (-1, Offtopic)

bryan986 (833912) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001603)

I want free money!!! GIMME GIMME!

money's not free unless (0, Offtopic)

oliverthered (187439) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001667)

With the current cost of copper is costs more to make euro coins that there worth, unless you sell them on as copper.

Re:money's not free unless (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11001679)

> With the current cost of copper is costs more to make euro coins that there worth, unless you sell them on as copper.

Can I ask what fucking post you where replying to? it certainly wasn't his.

laser fp! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11001607)

this fp was achieved using lasers and computers!

MIT (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11001612)

Didn't a bunch of MIT kids a while back use computers to count cards in several Vegas casinos? They ended up being banned from every casino's blackjack table.

Re:MIT (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11001671)

No

The famous MIT story is that teams didn't use any kinds of computers. You don't need to use computers to beat blackjack either. But they did get kicked out of casinos since they're private property and they dont like cardcounting. The fact it's legal is irrelevant.

Re:MIT (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11001733)

The plus side of MIT's operation was that they worked as a team. Teams are much harder to spot by the casino staff than a single card-counter, so they managed to make a lot before being spotted. Wired's story. [wired.com]

Re:MIT (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11001686)

You don't need computers to count cards. The MIT guys sure didn't. Hell, whipping out a PDA in the middle of a blackjack game would be an excellent way to tip off the casinos as to what you're doing. One of the hardest parts about counting cards is making it look like you and your accomplices are just a bunch of unrelated people playing a normal game of cards.

Re:MIT (1)

Hognoxious (631665) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001763)

I once heard of some guys who had a computer inside a shoe, but I think that was for roulette. Maybe that's what you're thinking of?

Re:MIT (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11001873)

No, there is a computer card counter that fits in the sole of a shoe that is made for blackjack. You tap your heel to input what cards you are played, but I'm not sure how it works beyond that.

The MIT story he is talking about was actually a bunch of mathematicians who counted the cards in their heads, and won a great deal of money but the casinos still banned them despite the fact that they weren't using any mechanical cheats.

UCSC, not MIT (3, Interesting)

Hognoxious (631665) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001975)

The roulette shoe computer is here. [wearcam.org] . UCSC, MIT ... that's near enough for government work.

Re:MIT (1)

geggibus (316979) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001940)

That was in an episode of CSI..

(Might have happened for real too. I don't know)

Re:MIT (1)

kd5ujz (640580) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001775)

I think you are speaking of the computers used by Ken Uston's black jack teams. This computer was named George. You can stil buy them from these guys Casey Computer [casey-computer.com]

Re:MIT (4, Interesting)

Ayaress (662020) | more than 9 years ago | (#11002138)

I'm banned from Soaring Eagle Casino and Resort for card counting. Just basic deck-weighting, nothing fancy. Usually if they think you're card counting, they offer you free drinks. They always watch gamblers who aren't drinking (espeically if the drinks are comp) extra closely, and they will at the very least take away your notes or calculator, if not ask you to leave.

Re:MIT (3, Interesting)

matth1jd (823437) | more than 9 years ago | (#11002225)

One should also note that Soaring Eagle Casino and Resort is notorious for not paying out much as they should for their slot machines. I wouldn't be suprised if they ask anyone trying to get a leg up to leave.

Even though they are fined by the feds for not paying out they just eat the fines and come out on top anyways.

I spent a part of my collegiate career at that casino since it was right down the road

--J

Didn't break the law! (-1, Redundant)

Jim Starx (752545) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001614)

Haha, guess the casino's gonna need to rewrite their rules now.

Re:Didn't break the law! (2, Funny)

boldi (100534) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001672)

But until they rewrite the rules, are we allowed to take the lab equipment (with trypods, industrial laser sources, generators and the home-brew linux-cluster for calculations) to a casino with the
white coat stuff and funny glasses?

Re:Didn't break the law! (5, Insightful)

radish (98371) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001731)

Casino rules != The Law

They probably did break casino rules, and they have almost certainly been banned from going back. But, that doesn't mean they broke the law.

Re:Didn't break the law! (2, Insightful)

TobyIRC (582495) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001759)

funny how casino rules aren't the law, but mpaa/riaa/gnaa says something and it somehow becomes the law.

oh, america.

Re:Didn't break the law! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11002084)

oh, america.

England is not part of America you dumbass American dick!

And yes, in America, the casinos will pass laws for their sole benefits, just like your beloved mpaa/riaa/gnaa. You live in a fucked-up country controlled by corporations and you're so fucked-up yourself you don't realize the rest of the world isn't so fucked-up.

Re:Didn't break the law! (1)

geoffspear (692508) | more than 9 years ago | (#11002213)

No, Title 18 is the law whether any trade group ever mentions it.

Funny how you can say something completely moronic and it gets modded down, but if you mention RIAA you're suddenly "insightful".

Re:Didn't break the law! (1)

dustman (34626) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001788)

Casino rules != The Law

I'm pretty sure this would have been against the law in Vegas.

Re:Didn't break the law! (2, Informative)

Deadstick (535032) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001761)

Don't know about the UK, but American casinos won't need anything rewritten: the courts have long since held that a casino can ban anyone it sees fit. That would include people waving lasers.

rj

what unfair moderation (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11001949)

parent post gets modded down. Reply that misconstrues the parent gets modded up. wtf

That's a sophisticated scan (1)

fussili (720463) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001620)

On a par with Number 2's Eye Patch X-ray thing in Austin Powers: IMM

Labour spin? Huh? (3, Interesting)

PHPgawd (744675) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001624)

Of course this could be Labour spin to try and get people excited about the idea of cheating at mega casinos.
Can somebody tell me what this means? Why would Labour (which I assume to mean the UK Labour Party) want to get people excited about cheating at mega casinos?

Re:Labour spin? Huh? (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11001635)

The UK Labour party intends to legalise large "American style" casinos, which are currently illegal in the UK. The bill faces stiff oposistion.

Re:Labour spin? Huh? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11001642)

1. "Bread and Circuses" (See also "National Lottery")

2. All that lovely tax money they can rake in from the idiots who read this story, and then go and lose their wages.

Re:Labour spin? Huh? (5, Informative)

happyhippy (526970) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001652)

They are planning to allow the opening of several Las Vegas style super casinos around the UK which dont exist here. Currently casinos are limited to small rooms and crowds and are overly regulated. Funnily enough its the Las Vegas casinos who lobbied the idea in the first place.

Though recently they backed off from the idea by reducing the number of initial casinos to about six (I cant remember the original number) as there are fears here that they'd cause more crime and more poverty in the surrounding area due to the envitable rise in gambling addiction.

Re:Labour spin? Huh? (4, Interesting)

StateOfTheUnion (762194) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001700)

. . . as there are fears here that they'd cause more crime and more poverty in the surrounding area due to the envitable rise in gambling addiction.


Why would mega-casinos cause gambling addction to rise in the UK? . . . a country where there are bingo parlors, casinos, slot machines and bookmakers (bookies for you yanks) already legal and seemingly found throughout the country.

Are we somehow to assume that the siren's call of a megacasino is somehow more compelling than that of the bookmaker and bingo parlor located round the corner?

Re:Labour spin? Huh? (4, Insightful)

Dizzle (781717) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001754)

IANAGAE (I am not a gambling addiction expert) but to me, it would seem far more likely that someone could get addicted to a megacasino with it's flashing lights, sounds, atmosphere, progressive jackpots, everything. They're just much slicker than anything else that people are used to and as such, it's far easier to become addicted. So yeah, I guess that would be a safe assumption.

Re:Labour spin? Huh? (2, Interesting)

Garak (100517) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001837)

Here in NF, Canada we have problems with gambling addiction and VLT's in the back of bars. The VLT's are goverment regulated cash cow for all parties except the people playing them ofcourse.

Every bar has a few video lottery terminals in the back and they are very accessable for people to use day to day. Rather than going to a big mega casino which usually requires a special trip its right there. And thus it the VLT's are easy to get addicted to.

I've only ever used them once, I put in $2 and pulled out $20 and I haven't used them since. I'm not going to push my luck.

Not to be negative, (2, Interesting)

mindstrm (20013) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001994)

but stories about how "the only time I played I put in $2 and made $20" help fuel that gambling addiction.

It's the few people who win at casinos that give the rest hope.

Re:Not to be negative, (1)

b00m3rang (682108) | more than 9 years ago | (#11002226)

So, you're saying that an anecdote about playing a few times and then stopping is going to promote problem gambling more than one about playing every day?

People don't need to hear other people's sucess stories to get hooked on anything. Trust me.

Re:Labour spin? Huh? (1)

RonnyJ (651856) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001699)

As others have said, that comment is because of upcoming changes in gambling laws in the UK, which may mean big casinos being built.

However, saying that this report is Labour spin is like saying that reports on suicide bombings in Iraq are 'Democratic spin'. It's not, it's news.

Re:Labour spin? Huh? (4, Informative)

mikael (484) | more than 9 years ago | (#11002140)

Can somebody tell me what this means? Why would Labour (which I assume to mean the UK Labour Party) want to get people excited about cheating at mega casinos?

Gambling in casino's in the UK is restricted to private casinos, where you have to register as a member 24 hours before being allowed to make any bets. There are betting shops (bookies) which allow people to make bets on races, but they have to keep the inside of the shop obscured (usually by posters) to avoid anyone falling to temptation. Many pubs and nightclubs have the odd slot machine (fruit machine) with the spinning reels, but they don't really rake in more than maybe 300 pounds a week, and have to have the theme changed every 4-5 weeks, otherwise the punters lose interest. There's also the traditional beach arcades, where you could play various skill games for a pound coin.

The Labour party was caught out with some dodgy visits to and from the Los Vegas casino owners, over the "tightening of gambling laws". The argument goes that since the Internet is allowing people to gamble from home or work, they need new legislation to ban the slot machines from pubs/night clubs, and that these should be replaced by dozens of new super-casinos able to set up all across the UK, especially in deprived areas. The Labour party spin is that this would allow the average UK member of the public to share in the glamour of high society gambling (image of men in tuxedo's and women in elegant evening gowns), although in reality the casinos would simply have hundreds of electronic slot machines linked up for national prizes.

Given the land shortage in the UK, there are far more practical uses for regenerated industrial sites. These include health and fitness centres, shopping malls, conference centres, office blocks, mixed-income housing, with casinos right at the bottom of the list. Especially since there is no real public demand for more casinos.

And there is also a growing public suspicion that New Labour seems to disregard anyone or any business who atttempts to earn a basic living (let alone make a fortune) from honest hard work, but is only interested in people who are prepared to recklessly gamble their own money eg. the obsession with getting "young people" to become entrepeneurs, or getting experienced senior managers to remortgage their homes in order to set up their own companies, or having multi-millionaires buy out companies with declining sales, and simply rebrand everyone and everything with uniforms and company logos.

Of course no law was broken! (5, Funny)

bigtallmofo (695287) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001627)

Unless they were using a laser to shoot the ball into the number they wanted, there's nothing at all illegal about this in the U.S., and I'm heartened to read the U.K. either.

"No more bets... And the number is 7... ZAP! I mean 19... ZAP! I mean 22... ZAP! I mean 13... ZAP! I mean 3... The winner is 3! You win again."

Re:Of course no law was broken! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11001655)

Actually I think it is.

There are regulations against using computerized devices. When they first got arrested that was the crux of the debate at least - that the laws hadn't been updated in Britain.

Plus you can't make monolithic statements about U.S. gaming. There are different gaming commissions for each state and for each reservation.

Of course no law was broken!-Broken Spirit. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11001691)

" Unless they were using a laser to shoot the ball into the number they wanted, there's nothing at all illegal about this in the U.S., and I'm heartened to read the U.K. either."

Well the spirit of the game was broken (Game of chance) and it's not fair to those not similiarly equipped (unfair advantage).

But then taking shortcuts to an easy buck, instead of doing the honest work appears to be todays social mantra.

Re:Of course no law was broken!-Broken Spirit. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11001740)

"But then taking shortcuts to an easy buck, instead of doing the honest work appears to be todays social mantra."

When the casinos have been rigging the odds in their favour for hundreds of years, I think turnabout is fair play.

Re:Of course no law was broken!-Broken Spirit. (4, Insightful)

mindstrm (20013) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001874)

Sorry, BS.

It's a game of chance, yes, however, saying "it's not fair to those not similarly equipped" is irrelevant. You are not competing against other players at the table in any way. You winning or not has no effect on their ability to play, or to win. You are competing against the casino.

The "spirit" of the game is guessing what's going to come up next based on the information available to you and everyone else at the table. If I am smarter than the guy next to me, is that an unfair advantage? If I count cards at blackjack, is that "unfair"? (No, it's not, but will likely get me asked to not play blackjack anymore at that particular casino)

This is not about fairness or anyhting like that, it's purely about profit. Odds are in favor of the house. This device shifts the odds in favor of the players, therefore, the casinos cannot afford to operate the game if these devices are permitted on the premesis. Plain and simple. The same reason they do not allow card counters to play blackjack for too long, becuase they would continuously lose money.

If there was no law on the books against this, then rightly so they should walk away with the money. The casino should do more to protect itself from this.

Re:Of course no law was broken!-Broken Spirit. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11001991)

Thats probaly why they did walk away witht he cash. But try this in vegas, and there is a law aginst it. They've had people using micro camers to try and 'peak' at dealer cards... and a host of other high tech things... so they have the laws in place. On top of that... even if there wasn't a law... 1 mil is a nice reason for them to bury you in the sand.

Re:Of course no law was broken!-Broken Spirit. (1)

rhakka (224319) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001932)

I love this, like taking shortcuts to an easy buck hasn't been the 'social mantra' since we first attached value to anything whatsoever, including food.

You sound like someone yearning for the "good old days". they never existed, tough guy, never ever.

Re:Of course no law was broken!-Broken Spirit. (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 9 years ago | (#11002049)

Huh. So in other words ... gambling is honest work? The whole point of gambling (from the gambler's perspective) is to find a shortcut to an easy buck. If some happen to be a little too efficient at achieving that, well that's too bad for the casinos. No difference in principle.

Re:Of course no law was broken! (4, Informative)

mindstrm (20013) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001791)

Except in Nevada where using electronic calculating devices to assist casino play is illegal.

Re:Of course no law was broken! (5, Insightful)

DNS-and-BIND (461968) | more than 9 years ago | (#11002052)

Well...in Nevada, winning is pretty much illegal. If you're in a game with a guaranteed negative outcome (which Roulette certainly is), and you win, that's prima facie evidence that you're cheating. Just try to leave the casino with your winnings. They'll keep you in a back room and review the tapes until they can figure out what you were doing.

Ask anyone who's worked in the "gaming" industry. There are NO winners. Sure, the occasional jackpot or lucky player, but that's just advertising.

Re:Of course no law was broken! (1)

daeley (126313) | more than 9 years ago | (#11002092)

Put all your money on black, did you?

Re:Of course no law was broken! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11001967)

"there's nothing at all illegal about this in the U.S"

Nevada casinos will throw you out with our without a reason, and Indian joints can be even more arbitrary. It's not about "law", except for the one that says they can refuse service to anyone at all.

Others... (1)

Tiberius_Fel (770739) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001629)

I suspect it will encourage others to try new plans. I also suspect the vast majority of them will fail, which probably turns out well for the casinos in the end.

Re:Others... (1)

wooby (786765) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001704)

The technology to accomplish this has existed for some time. I suspect that the vast majority of those pulling this are not failing.

I think this group just "got greedy." If they would have walked away with their 100k (what they won the first day), the elaborate sting which was prepared to bring them down the second day (when they won 1M) would have been a vain effort.

Re:Others... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11001747)

I suspect you grossly underestimate the number of people who are out to make a quick buck, and how little encouragement they need (i.e. none) to try anything and everything towards that end.

Re:Others... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11001894)

For every succesful card counter there are probably at least 50 who only think they can count cards.

It will be no different for this. The casinos will not lose any money over this.

Previous Article (2, Informative)

Stubtify (610318) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001636)

I do believe this is in the same con which slashdot reported a few months ago:

Roulette Scam [slashdot.org]

Amazing that they did get to keep the cash, at least slashdot kept up on a story for once.

Re:Previous Article (3, Funny)

dont_think_twice (731805) | more than 9 years ago | (#11002101)

at least slashdot kept up on a story for once.

yea, like that SCO story. slashdot really dropped the ball on that one.

Re:Previous Article (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11002151)

Amazing that they did get to keep the cash, at least slashdot kept up on a story for once.

I assure you it was by chance. Cmdrtaco probably never read the first article and just happened to present something related to it. How do I know this? He didn't bother to mention the original article in the summary.

U.K. Gambling perceptions (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11001641)

As an American living in the U.K. I can say that Britain's perception of their gambling is distorted. Sure poker's big in the U.S., and the last few decades have had a dramatic increase in casinos but, the U.K. seems to think that the rest of the world's addicted to gambling and they're responsible. Blair's mega-casinos; case in point.

The truth is there are slots machines in tons of roadside stops, sports betting shops (ladbrokes, etc) on busy corners, and national lottery ads [adverts] pervasive on t.v. America, (nevada aside) treats gambling much more as a kind of entertainment; in the U.K. it's more about gambling.

I don't doubt there're gambling problems across most cultures, just, I see very little legitimate entertainment in roadside slot machines. It seems to be preying on those with problems.

Re:U.K. Gambling perceptions (1)

happyhippy (526970) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001687)

UK resident here.
I think its about who'll run them, not of the consequences. The Las Vegas casinos were the ones who started this bill in the UK, and so itll be them who'll get the money.
Most people are seeing that the money will flow out of the UK areas and leaving behind increased crime, poverty and more gambling addicts.

U.K. Gambling perceptions-Math Failures. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11001723)

Gambling is for those who failed at math. Even if the odds were 1:4 that doesn't mean that the fourth ticket would be a winner.

Re:U.K. Gambling perceptions-Math Failures. (1)

Hognoxious (631665) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001785)

One, in the UK it's maths. Two, it's not maths, it's statistics.

Re:U.K. Gambling perceptions-Math Failures. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11001833)

> Gambling is for those who failed at math. Even if the odds were 1:4 that doesn't mean that the fourth ticket would be a winner.

That's what they would like you to believe:

Imagine four doors, one leads to the prize jackpot, the other three lead to an empty space.

- You open door #1: empty -- your chances are now 3:1
- You open door #2: empty -- your chances are now 2:1
- You open door #3: empty -- your chances are 1:1
- You open door #4: jackpot

Can you see how they are intentionally misleading you? They would would like you to believe that on opening door #4, your chances have remained 4:1, but this is incorrect; you know the last door will contain the jackpot, you know this because evidence tells tells you the other three are empty. But, if you know this, and it was the inevitable conclusion, how could your chances have ever been 4:1, the answer is they weren't, they always were 1:1, it's the only logical explanation. The fact they are keeping this knowledge from you, is the only reason you will lose, once you understand the fallacy in what they have conditioned you to believe, you will always win.

Re:U.K. Gambling perceptions-Math Failures. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11001977)

Huh? Is this some new math? Or is it because the jackpot is always behind door #4?

I know of no casino game where you get 4 chances like that, so I don't know if that applies to what we're talking about here.

Theoretically, the casino has no idea what the roulette spin is going to do, and can't predict what people will bet. Why would the odds change like you're suggesting?

Re:U.K. Gambling perceptions-Math Failures. (1)

Timmmm (636430) | more than 9 years ago | (#11002041)

Huh? Is this some new math? Or is it because the jackpot is always behind door #4?

Yeah you only get one chance, and that chance was always 4:1. They just show you some empty doors in order to get you to increase your bet.

Re:U.K. Gambling perceptions (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11001777)

You haven't been to Quebec, have you? Same problem. And lottery ads are all over Canada, all the time, all obnoxious. Here, we get taxed a lot so it's next to impossible for an employee to become rich through hard work only, so the money-lovers turn to lotteries and gambling to feed their millionaire dreams, and the government knows it too.

Re:U.K. Gambling perceptions (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11001781)

Gambling is always about gambling.

Just like drinking alcohol is always about consuming alcohol. You are just one of those "I only drink socially (except when I'm alone)" excuse makers.

Easy fix (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11001647)

Just use hermit crabs as roulette balls.

Woohoo!

Crab skitters unpredictable over to another number....

Doh!

Re:Easy fix (5, Funny)

The Ultimate Fartkno (756456) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001707)

Yeah, but then you have the problem of the "ball" jumping up and biting into some poor guy's head. The next thing you know you've got a casino full of zombies running around and eating the cocktail waitresses - and have you ever tried to bludgeon a zombie with a croupier's rake? It's no crowbar, that's for damned sure.

Oh... wait.

"Hermit" crab?

Never mind...

more facts in hungarian press (2)

boldi (100534) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001653)


check my old comment:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1019 59&cid=869 1466

"
Actually their said one beutyful girl was from Hungary with two serb guys. They said they used a mobile-shaped laser-scanning device, but they don't know if it is prohibited.

http://index.hu/tech/tudomany/ritz040323/
in hungarian.

Later they said, that this device cannot exist, as such a device would be least a pc large and needs a calibration of some hours and at least NASA technique to make it.

So at last, they said, that there are a number of people who actually can figure out what is the winning number from the spinning of the wheel by her own eye.

The article also mentions, that after all, they don't really need to now the EXACT target of the ball, if they can close out 2 numbers, they can earn an average of 3% per round.

So anyway, it's a weird weird story with SCI-FI elements..."

New articles, like
http://index.hu/politika/bulvar/kaszcs041205 /

say, they had a laser-scanner build in a phone, the results were sent back to a bigger computer for calculations, finally the results arrive on the phone, play & profit.

(player) "Hey! He's cheating!" (0, Redundant)

Sensible Clod (771142) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001670)

(policeman) Nothing to see here. Move along.

Cheating? Bah! (4, Insightful)

standards (461431) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001681)

Casino marketing manager:

"There is a portion of the population that think that casinos are stupid waste of time because the odds say that the players CAN'T win.

"Well... time to put a stop to that! Let's tell these smarties that very smart people that study the roulette wheel a lot can predict where the ball will land with some kind of accuracy. We'll suggest that people can tilt the odds in their favor! Haha!

"But we all know that the steps to winning are:

1. Get out casino mentioned in the news and in faux "cheating vegas" documentaries.
2. Encourage these smarties to get themselves to the casino and play some roulette. Those smarties will think they are "honing their predictive capabilities."
3. Profit!

Heck, it worked for Blackjack... let's get them into roulette too!

lasers! (0)

roman_mir (125474) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001697)

So how come the security allowed sharks into the casino? ;))))

By the way, the same effect can be achieved with just a camera (in glasses?) taking multiple pictures of the wheel.

So you have 'magic' glasses on, that take pictures, and show to you the most likely numbers to bet on.

Re:lasers! (1)

roman_mir (125474) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001705)

By the way, you should mode the above post as either 'Funsightful' or 'Funformative' :]

Re:lasers! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11002026)

FUN? You want FUN? You've stupidly stumbled onto our system. Now we have to pay you a little visit.

The Mafia

Not the first to try (4, Informative)

DrSkwid (118965) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001709)


see
The Eudaemonic Pie [thomasbass.com]

or "The Newtonian Casino" as the UK print was called

How (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11001715)

Does anyone have any information about how this works?

Getting banned (2, Insightful)

anothergene (336420) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001737)

Sounds like a good way to get yourself banned from every Casino on earth. The house ALWAYS wins, just ask the MIT blackjack team.

Re:Getting banned (1)

Ithika (703697) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001813)

I don't think I'd be too bothered if I couldn't go back into a casino if I knew we just earned 1.3m in two days to be split between 3 people tax free.

In fact, if you have any intelligence at all, once you made that kind of money you wouldn't play another game of chance for high stakes again. Just enjoy life...

Re:Getting banned (1)

GigsVT (208848) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001848)

Gambling winnings in the UK are tax free?

Re:Getting banned (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11002280)

Yes.

Re:Getting banned (1)

really? (199452) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001939)

Err ... except that 1.3m split three ways is only 400 thou plus change. Here in Vancouver, B.C., that wouldn't even get you a decent house. :-(

Re:Getting banned (1)

TheGavster (774657) | more than 9 years ago | (#11002117)

However, you won't actually have to work for 8-10 years, or you could have a low-stress, part time job while still living decently for a long time.

Re:Getting banned (1)

YrWrstNtmr (564987) | more than 9 years ago | (#11002297)

The house ALWAYS wins,

No, just most of the time. If players never won, the casino would soon find itself out of patrons. They need to have a few BIG winners, and a somewhat larger number of very small winners, and a larger number of losers.

51%(house)-49%(players) is enough, given enough volume. I've seen this sign "Our slots pay 98%!" That means they keep 2% overall.

Those flashing lights and bells when you win are there to generate desire to win. "Hey...he did it..maybe I can." And sometimes someone does. Just not you, usually.

Damn... (1)

jonasw (778909) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001787)

it's those frickin' lasers again!

This is probably pure ignorance but (3, Interesting)

panurge (573432) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001809)

Isn't the whole point that this would not be possible if the house had a completely fair wheel? It could not be beyond the wit of engineering to produce a roulette wheel whose outcome, if not random, had such a small deviation from randomness that it would take a very long time to detect it. In any case, provided the non-randomness is below a quite high level, players will lose in the long run. They will lose faster in the US, land of the double-zero, but they will still lose.

If it is possible to win by detecting non-randomness then the wheel, or the process for using it, is bent.

My main objection to casinos is not that they provide a place for gambling - people will do this, and it is probably better that they do this in a way subject to some sort of regulation - but that reported incidents suggest they do not run fair games, and that the stacking of the odds on e.g. fruit machines is probably intended to fuel gambling addiction. It's like the alcohol industry producing alcoholic fruit drinks to get kids hooked, or just about any strategy of the tobacco industry. If the casino gets caught by someone using statistical analysis, the law should not protect them from their own dishonesty.

Re:This is probably pure ignorance but (1)

Superfreaker (581067) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001919)

It could not be beyond the wit of engineering to produce a roulette wheel whose outcome, if not random, had such a small deviation from randomness that it would take a very long time to detect it.

Shhhh! They did, it's called the 0. (you did actually reference it also)

Re:This is probably pure ignorance but (1)

rhakka (224319) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001950)

they don't have to guess the right slot via this mechanism to win. They just have to narrow down the possible choices in order to tilt the odds in their favor.

Re:This is probably pure ignorance but (2, Informative)

bigbigbison (104532) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001976)

I can't speak for casinos in other areas, but the casinos in Indiana, where I worked for 2+ years, are heavilly regulated. The only industry in Indiana that has more regulations is the nucular industry according to the casino. As you note, it is impossible to have a completely random wheel. I mean, Indiana casinos are on boats and even though they stay docked, they still are actual boats and I'm sure the weight of 2-3 thousand customers and employees is enough to shift the boat ever so slightly, so it is impossible.

Slot machines and card games, however, while stacked in the favor of the house because if they weren't it wouldn't be hard for employees to figure out how to beat the system and if a casino is afraid of anything, it is the employees cheating either to help a friend win or to get money themselves. At a casino the cameras are looking at the employees just as much as the customers. More than once surveilance called us up asked us what we were doing.

And again, at least in Indiana, if you aren't tampering with equipment, there is no law against using gambling aides. However, if you get caught you will get kicked out and probably banned.

Re:This is probably pure ignorance but (4, Informative)

MyNameIsFred (543994) | more than 9 years ago | (#11002012)

...Isn't the whole point that this would not be possible if the house had a completely fair wheel?...

Your preception of what they did is wrong. What makes the roulette wheel work is that no one, with the naked eye, can measure the initial conditions well enough to predict the outcome. From the articles discussed in various links, the group apparently used a laser to measure spin rate and other variables when the roullette wheel was set in motion. Then a computer estimated the final position of the ball. They had a brief window in which to do this. Bets must be placed before the wheel spins three times. If the reports are true, they could do this on a completely fair wheel.

In other words, they were NOT looking at long term averages and saying, for this wheel, the ball lands an unusual number of times on 6. They were looking at the initial conditions of the spin and used to physics to say on the spin, the ball will likely land here. They reduced the odds from 1 in 32 to 1 in 6.

Idea for a Casino Royale Modern Update Scene (1)

Matarick (566397) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001842)

Q: Double O Seven, here is your ring and watch.
Bond: Why on earth would you want me to wear such a bobble? You know red isn't my color and this watch looks like something from a crackerjack box.
Q: Commander Bond, this is no ordinary ring and watch.
Bond: What does this ring act as a glass cutter and this watch emits fatal eletrical shocks. Are you really running out of ideas?
Q: No, since this mission is gambling and you are our best gambler. This ring and watch makes the task of winning the 50,000,000 Euros a whole lot easier. This ring acts as a faint lazer while this watch is actually an LCD screen. Both are connected to a highly specialized radio signal. While most people only see the watch from aside (turns the watch left and right with a slight 90 degree tilt); at only your viewpoint you are able to see the scanner at work. This calculates the speed of the roulette spin and you can place constant and certain bets all the time.
Bond: Do you think my keen gambling sense is wearing down by age?
Q: Heavens no, I just want to make sure that you will win the 50,000,000 Euros and breaking Le Chiffre's bank. SMERSH needs to feel the agony of debt and you are the man to do it.
Bond: What if they find out that I am 'cheating'. You know that I have a repuation to keep up.
Q: You went through kidnapping, torture, and even the loss of your wife. You can certainly handle the Casino Royale's security.
(I already know that Bond and Le Chiffe faced off each other at baccarat instead but I want to make it revelant to the story)

Re:Idea for a Casino Royale Modern Update Scene (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11002123)

Huh? Oh. Ok.

BTW, it's crackerback jox, you clod!

Re:Idea for a Casino Royale Modern Update Scene (1)

Tim Browse (9263) | more than 9 years ago | (#11002189)

Q: And one more thing, Bond. Take a look at this chair with a hole in the seat we've been working on...
Bond: I hardly think I'll need to know about that, Q.

Re:Idea for a Casino Royale Modern Update Scene (1)

iggymanz (596061) | more than 9 years ago | (#11002195)

Surely you remember the 1971 "Diamonds are Forever" scene at the Whyte House Casino as Q is testing his "Slot Machine Decoder Ring" and drains the jackpot out of a few machines with a smile on his face?

I want one (1)

sodul (833177) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001890)

Anyone selling this scanner on Ebay ?
I would need to receive the item before my next trip to Vegas.
Also does it come with the beautiful hungrarian girl ? It might help with security when the casino realize you can actually win.

Read the "Eudaemonic Pie" by Thomas Bass (2, Informative)

JT27278 (589969) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001893)

This approach to beating roulette was first approached back in the 1980s. The Eudaemonic Pie is a classic hacker tale and should not be missed if you can find a copy.

Now if only .... (2, Funny)

bizitch (546406) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001968)

they would let me keep my slot machine winnings I got with that HERF gun ....

Sick of scum (1)

Retep Vosnul (663388) | more than 9 years ago | (#11001996)

I'm sick of those shows about how ppl get caught by the brave security folks at casinos, and how they are a bad thing.
The ppl who run those sjithole casino's are pure scum, who deserve who be "cheated" out of there money.

Down with them bastards.

My opinion? (2, Insightful)

Gothic_Walrus (692125) | more than 9 years ago | (#11002177)

Good for them. They were intelligent enough to make it work, and they've earned what they won.

Was it fair? No. But it's theirs now.

Spin (2, Funny)

6Yankee (597075) | more than 9 years ago | (#11002299)

Of course this could be Labour spin...

Spin. Roulette. Heh.

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