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gEDA (GPL'ed Electronic Design) In EE Times

timothy posted more than 9 years ago | from the beyond-world-domination dept.

GNU is Not Unix 170

Stuart Brorson writes "At long last, today's EE Times published an article about the gEDA project. The gEDA project has developed a mature, GPL'd, Linux-based suite of tools useful for electronic design. Using the gEDA tools, you can take a circuit design from schematic capture, through simulation, to PC board layout and fab. Some example PCBs done using gEDA include the Darrell Harmon's single board computer, and the 'free hardware' Ronja Project. Happily, the advantages of open-source for electronics design were well presented in the article. It's good to see that gEDA is getting some well-deserved press for the excellent work which has been going on from over six years now!"

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170 comments

What the big . . . (-1, Troll)

deacon brown (733444) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088035)

deal about "First Post", anyway?

Re:What the big . . . (1)

bryan986 (833912) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088174)

Watching people get trolled, thats what

Hardware should be free! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088037)

/ obligatory

Actually... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088152)

...that should be Free as in "Piece of shit". Also, please refer to it as GNU/Hardware.

Yarrghhhh (0, Flamebait)

darth_MALL (657218) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088047)

Acronym Overload!...My eyes!

Re:Yarrghhhh (0, Offtopic)

grub (11606) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088273)


Just think if this was in the IT section [slashdot.org] . There'd be a critical mass of ugly and the end of life as we know it would result.

Re:Yarrghhhh (1)

Vaevictis666 (680137) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088463)

what, you mean like this [slashdot.org] ?

Re:Yarrghhhh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088506)


Fool! Do you know how much damage that could cause?

!_! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088051)

!_!

gEDA is still lacking a PCB editor... (4, Interesting)

Lisandro (799651) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088070)

... which, for me, it's a showstopper and forces me to use EAGLE (which is excellent and available for Windows and Linux, but not OSS). PCB [sourceforge.net] seems to be powerful, but i simply cannot get accostumed to it's interface.

The rest of the package is quite good though, and i have to agree, they've come a long way in these six years. Kudos to the developers!

Hey asshole, (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088150)

never bitch about GPL software. The source is there, so either submit some patches or shut the fuck up. That's the GPL way.

Re:Hey asshole, (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088198)

sorry, but please format your reply in the form of an easily reprodicible bug report / feature request with a patch attached, then we'll address this asshole issue you speak of...

Re:Hey asshole, (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088223)

sorry, but please format your reply in the form of an easily reprodicible bug report / feature request with a patch attached, then we'll address this asshole issue you speak of...

Problem Report: Here's a screenshot of your asshole you fucking faggot:

*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_
g_______________________________________________g_ _
o_/_____\_____________\____________/____\_______o_ _
a|_______|_____________\__________|______|______a_ _
t|_______`._____________|_________|_______:_____t_ _
s`________|_____________|________\|_______|_____s_ _
e_\_______|_/_______/__\\\___--___\\_______:____e_ _
x__\______\/____--~~__________~--__|_\_____|____x_ _
*___\______\_-~____________________~-_\____|____*_ _
g____\______\_________.--------.______\|___|____g_ _
o______\_____\______//_________(_(__>__\___|____o_ _
a_______\___.__C____)_________(_(____>__|__/____a_ _
t_______/\_|___C_____)/______\_(_____>__|_/_____t_ _
s______/_/\|___C_____)_YUO!__|__(___>___/__\____s_ _
e_____|___(____C_____)\______/__//__/_/_____\___e_ _
x_____|____\__|_____\\_________//_(__/_______|__x_ _
*____|_\____\____)___`----___--'_____________|__*_ _
g____|__\______________\_______/____________/_|_g_ _
o___|______________/____|_____|__\____________|_o_ _
a___|_____________|____/_______\__\___________|_a_ _
t___|__________/_/____|_________|__\___________|t_ _
s___|_________/_/______\__/\___/____|__________|s_ _
e__|_________/_/________|____|_______|_________|e_ _
x__|__________|_________|____|_______|_________|x_ _
*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_


# Please try to keep posts on topic. # Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads. # Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. # Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. # Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page)# Please try to keep posts on topic. # Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads. # Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. # Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. # Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page)# Please try to keep posts on topic. # Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads. # Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. # Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. # Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page)# Please try to keep posts on topic. # Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads. # Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. # Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. # Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page)

Re:Hey asshole, (4, Interesting)

Lisandro (799651) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088209)

never bitch about GPL software. The source is there, so either submit some patches or shut the fuck up. That's the GPL way. I don't, i'm just pointing it out. I've used gEDAs' schematic capture and SPICE simulation and found both to be very mature (and useful). Like i said, it has evolved quite a lot. But a PCB designer is an integral part of a electronic design software; it's pretty sure anything you'll design on a computer will end up on a PCB. Sadly, gPCB was abandoned. I would like a PCB designer well integrated to the suite rather than a separate program, no matter how good.

Re:Hey asshole, (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11089077)

When I call you a stupid fuck I'm only trying to help, because if more people called you a stupid fuck maybe you'd sort the problem out.

If no one has ever called you a stupid fuck then it's about time, stupid fuck.

Additional reviews of Mod Parent Up AC's to follow.

Re:Hey asshole, (2, Insightful)

fossa (212602) | more than 9 years ago | (#11089450)

This a very prevelant attitude, or perhaps prevelant within a vocal minority. It is however, a terrible attitude. True, we should be very grateful to those who pour their time and heart into the volunteer work that is most free software. If all developers hear is "oh that sucks", they will get discouraged. However, authors should welcome and encourage constructive criticism from users. A large part of designing an [interactive] tool is to observe people using it in an attempt to identify and understand the reasons behind common problems and design flaws so that the flaws may be eliminated. True, this is neither the domain nor the desire of every free software developer nor should it be. But to deride any criticism with the argument "well, it's free and open; fix it yourself" is pointless at best and extremely harmful at worst. When users are too discouraged or fearful to complain, bad software that is difficult to use is the result.

To developers: If you are not interested in user complaints that is fine. Please state this in your program documentation. We still thank you for your generous gifts as you give them. If you are interested in user complaints, please make this clear so as to not discourage potential insight from the users.

To designers: Please observe users and listen to and understand complaints; design usable software. We will thank you for your contributions.

To users: Be grateful, but do not let us go on in ignorance. We want to understand your problems.

13 year old attitiude destructive on /. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11089679)

/. readers should know that acting like a 13 year old, such as telling someone to 'go write code a-hole' will not help anyone switch to open source software.

Re:gEDA is still lacking a PCB editor... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088253)


They're shooting themselves in the foot by not offering a windows binary for download.

Which means they're idealogically-driven dickheads. Therefore I'm not at all tempted to jump through hoops to look at what they've produced. It may be free but my time isn't.

(Eagle? Always found it too buggy, crashed often. Using the Protel demo is always a good option. Of course if you have Protel full version even better.)

Re:gEDA is still lacking a PCB editor... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11089226)

You're out of your mind. Jump through hoops? What hoops?

apt-get install geda

How the fuck hard is that, dipshit? You must be some kinda retarded fool.

Re:gEDA is still lacking a PCB editor... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11089837)

It starts with choosing a distribution... because if you require EDA you're not running Linux now.

Oh, I guess it's you that is the fool.

Re:gEDA is still lacking a PCB editor... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088654)

To be fair, I learned and used commercial Protel PCB layout software in 1995. I am a whiz with the interface and know many of it's problems and have a sixth sense for when to save because the program is about to crash. Flash forward to nearly 10 years later and I have access to modern Orcad....

But I simply cannot get accustomed to it's interface...

Re:gEDA is still lacking a PCB editor... (5, Informative)

dj.delorie (3368) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088771)

PCB seems to be powerful, but i simply cannot get accostumed to it's interface.

As one of the few people actively working on PCB, I can only say this: If you don't tell us what you don't like, we can't make it better. As with all open software, YOU the user are an important part of the development process, even if all you do is [constructively] complain.

Recently, I added user-customizable menus. Have you tried changing the UI to do what YOU want? That's why I added it.

Re:gEDA is still lacking a PCB editor... (2, Interesting)

Lisandro (799651) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088902)

Didn't mean to diss, sorry.

My main quirk is the lack of integration with the rest of gEDA - on interface and other issues; for example, on EAGLE i can modify a schematic on the capture program and have the changes reflected automatically on the PCB design, and viceversa.

Having said that, i've just emerged PCB v1.99 (i can't recall the last version i've tried, but it was a while ago). It seems to have got quite better. I have some single-sided boards to design and will give it a shot - complete with feedback from the user experience. I was planning to dicth the EAGLE schematic capture part anyway, so gEDA seems like a good starting point.

PS: Don't mind assholes like me. I've said it before: this is a powerful program indeed; thank you for working on it for free.

Re:gEDA is still lacking a PCB editor... (2, Interesting)

dj.delorie (3368) | more than 9 years ago | (#11089281)

i can modify a schematic on the capture program and have the changes reflected automatically on the PCB design, and viceversa.

Funny you should mention that, we were recently pondering how to do that. If you've got ideas or experience with annotation files, we could use the help ;-)

Re:gEDA is still lacking a PCB editor... (1)

Lisandro (799651) | more than 9 years ago | (#11089586)

Well, i don't know how integrated is PCB with gEDA (under the hood, that is), but what could be done is to save a hash and name of the netlist file that originated the PCB file with it (if any), and, if the hash changes, between saves or during editing, adapt the PCB file accordingly. That would work if the schematic capture and PCB have no other way of comunicating with each other.

I know it's easier said than done, and in any case, it's not a perfect solution, but it could work. I would help with the coding but lately my free time amounts to near-zero, and i'm re-teaching C myself to boot (writting a compressor, which will become GPL if it happens to work).

Re:gEDA is still lacking a PCB editor... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088915)

Hey cool - YOU provide a windows download please. I'm not interested in installing Linux just to try your software. My compiler is too busy with actual work to be used to dick around with building it myself.

Re:gEDA is still lacking a PCB editor... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11089202)

Whoa!! You're telling me that are people out there still using Windows?

How utterly 1990s.

Get with the program, man, or the program's gonna pass you by.

Re:gEDA is still lacking a PCB editor... (3, Insightful)

goodie3shoes (573521) | more than 9 years ago | (#11089146)

Thanks to Mr. Delorie for his many improvements of PCB. I use very expensive proprietary schematic and PCB software at work, but am quite happy with PCB and gschem at home on my Linux box, where I make DIY projects. I'd like to reinforce that it's easy to whine (whinge) about features and capabilities, but a bit harder to code them.

Mature tools my ass (4, Funny)

raider_red (156642) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088085)

We payed millions and didn't get a set of mature tools from the major EDA vendors. How are they expecting to develop the same with no budget?

Never Underestimate... (4, Funny)

Kjuib (584451) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088123)

Never Underestimate the power of Geeks who are bored out of their mind!!

Never Underestimate...Idle Minds. (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088157)

"Never Underestimate the power of Geeks who are bored out of their mind!!"

It's called "The Slashdot Effect".

Re:Mature tools my ass (2, Interesting)

RealAlaskan (576404) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088126)

We payed millions and didn't get a set of mature tools from the major EDA vendors. How are they expecting to develop the same with no budget?

Sounds as if the bar has been set pretty low. If the major vendors are giving you immature crap, these guys might be able to do better, even with zero budget.

It's sort of like the story of the software monopolist with the multi-billion dollar budget and the zero-budget, GPL operating system which might yet out-compete the monopolist's amazingly expensive OS.

Re:Mature tools my ass (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088297)

The most tools used for EDA are quite frankly quite more complex than the standard set of applications you find on most computers. So it does no good trying to compare with most other types of software. Take a office suite as an example. It takes lots of code to make one, but it's not very advanced coding. Some of the hardest to do right are the typesetting, but as long it looks good the accuracy are not that important. EDA tools on the other hand needs at least 1/10-1/100 mm accuracy's. And consider what it takes to write an multilayer autorouter, think of it as a traveling salesman problem with 10 thousands of nodes and collition avoidance. Basicly a whole different ball game:-)

Re:Mature tools my ass (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088334)

"It's sort of like the story of the software monopolist with the multi-billion dollar budget and the zero-budget, GPL operating system which might yet out-compete the monopolist's amazingly expensive OS."

It's sort of like the story that DC Comics used when they wanted to have Superman lose his powers and memory and preface it with "a story that may or may not ever happen".

Re:Mature tools my ass (3, Insightful)

rewt66 (738525) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088355)

No, the problem is that users set the bar very high.

See, OS kernels, compilers, word processors, and that kind of stuff are old hat now. There aren't any staggering breakthroughs being made in proportional-spacing algorithms these days. So OO.o, for example, has not too hard of a time creating a word processor that does just about anything anyone will ever need a word processor to do.

EDA is a whole different ball game. The leading-edge designs that people want to do are beyond the capabilities of the current software, even the software from the major vendors. Users need staggering breakthroughs, just to make the tools adequate for handling the user's current designs.

I'm not saying that open source can't compete here. But it's very different from "yeah, open source can build an OS that doesn't crash." That was a low bar that one particular vendor's stuff had a lot of problems with due to very bad design; OSS cleared that bar quite handily.

Re:Mature tools my ass (1)

mollymoo (202721) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088428)

It's sort of like the story of the software monopolist with the multi-billion dollar budget and the zero-budget, GPL operating system which might yet out-compete the monopolist's amazingly expensive OS.

It may become like that if, as happened with GNU/Linux, some companies get in on the act. Zero-budget is completely wrong. A fair bit of the funkiness in the Linux kernel has been provided by the likes of IBM and Red Hat. They are not zero-budget companies.

If some company with a vested interest in EDA software thinks "hey, let's see what we can get if we spend that million bucks employing half a dozen geeks to work on the GPL stuff" then we might see gEDA improve by leaps and bounds in the way the Linux kernel and other open-source software has.

Don't get me wrong, open-source software written in an ad-hoc way produces some decent results and I use it a lot, but sometimes you need full-time people with a sense of direction to add the refinement and polish and provide the support needed to convince the beancounters it's worth investing in.

Without the likes of IBM and Red Hat contributing code and offering support I bet you wouldn't have a single blue-chip company running a Linux box.

Re:Mature tools my ass (2, Informative)

SagSaw (219314) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088588)

The bar has been set pretty low, especially for basic usage. I use OrCad Capture and Layout at work for fairly simple circuits (Generally small circuits for test fixtures and one-off projects). Way too often, I find myself wondering how Cadence manages to get close to $10,000 for two programs with as many bugs and quirks. For example, there is only rudimentary copy-and-paste functionality in Layout, and Layout doesn't always recognize a disconnected pin as a design-rule error. Capture insists on writing to the installation directory when options are changed, rather than a per-user configuration file.

To be fair, you get some good features for that price, except that the casual user probably doesn't make extensive use of high-end features like autorouting or the ability to route on an extreme number of layers.

Re:Mature tools my ass (1)

Lisandro (799651) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088237)

There are mature EDA packages indeed; notably Protel [protel.com] , which is quite expensive but powerful and let's you cover almost every aspect of electronic CAD.

I think such quality can be achieved with OSS; in fact, the working parts of gEDA are quite mature indeed, like the schematic capture and SPICE simulator. OSS tends to move slower though, but given enough time gEDA could be there.

Re:Mature tools my ass (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088558)

You'd you say the same thing about Linux???

Re:Mature tools my ass (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088879)

So, another Cadence user, huh?

FINALLY! (5, Funny)

Thunderstruck (210399) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088086)

The last time I had to design a circuit board, the boss told me to find a way to do it for free. We found some demo software on the internet that would print out samples of the board overlaid with a grid. (To remove grid, buy the software.) We then had to print to plastic and scrape the grid off with an exacto-knife.
While I no longer do this kind of work, I am pleased to see future generations will never have to worry about irrational demands from the boss. (right?)

FINALLY!-Back in the day. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088140)

"The last time I had to design a circuit board, the boss told me to find a way to do it for free. "

Kids these days. We didn't have software in my day. We had to hand-crank our designs, and tape them out onto a piece of plastic.*

*Basically laying bits of plastic out onto a plastic grid, including wires.

Then there was the wirewrapping, and the heavy metal chassis. God, I miss the old days.

Re:FINALLY!-Back in the day. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088244)

Then they invented the train.

I had to walk to school in 27 feet of snow with temperatures to -57, bare foot, up hill both ways.

Then back in my day, in Vietnam....

Re:FINALLY! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088282)

Download the protel demo. Fully functional. DUH!!!!

I hope your boss doesn't find out you were too stupid to find the protel demo, or you're fucked.

Re:FINALLY! (1)

mollymoo (202721) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088475)

The last time I had to design a circuit board, the boss told me to find a way to do it for free.

And the buy wouldn't even give you a pen and a pad? That really is tight...

Re: FINALLY! (1)

Alwin Henseler (640539) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088529)

The last time I had to design a circuit board, the boss told me to find a way to do it for free. We found some demo software on the internet that would print out samples of the board overlaid with a grid. (To remove grid, buy the software.) We then had to print to plastic and scrape the grid off with an exacto-knife.

Why not use paper & pencil for the design, take copper-plated circuit board, and scrape off the copper directly? Ah, anyway, just think of those poor folks in China that recycle some of our electronic trash. At least you get do the creative end of the work. So stop whining! You should be grateful to have a boss that empowers you to do such high-tech work!

Back in the days... oh never mind

You laugh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088706)

But I actually have to deal with a jerk-off boss in academia who does expect us to design circuits without a budget to speak of.

They are some pretty crappy managers out there.

Re:FINALLY! (1)

HermanAB (661181) | more than 9 years ago | (#11089097)

Protel Demo, Orcad Demo, Eagle Light, PCB Express...

Maybe next time, use Google and look for "Free PCB Design Software"...

Mixed-Up. (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088092)

So how well do the OSS tools do with mixed-signal designs?

Re:Mixed-Up. (3, Informative)

Lisandro (799651) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088312)

gEDA has a mixed mode simulator program called Gnucap [seul.org] . I haven't tried it, but seems to be quite powerful, even while it's still work in progress.

Clay Aiken is G... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088111)

...athering steam with high album sales.

Oh and he is a cock sucker.

Re:Clay Aiken is G... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088288)

Aint that a fact

Ellen DeGeneres is a L... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088148)

...ively entertainer.

Oh and she licks box.

Hmm! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088178)

Blah blah fucking blah.

first kumquat? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088225)

Have I gotten on the lameness filter already?

Oh well, just in case... First kumquat [slashdot.org] !!!

Give it time... (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088240)


(emphasis mine)
dubbed gEDA for short -- has become, much to the delight of engineers who would rather go their own way than rely on commercial tools. It won't replace commercial software packages, but it does provide an alternative.

... yet. Every desktop converted to open source means one less commercial package has been sold.

Re:Give it time... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088492)

No, it means some cheap-ass loser who is happy with poor imitations of the real thing can use software that he otherwise would not, or can avoid having to rationalize copyright violation (with the same tired old sophistry).

the "gimp sux" argument applied to gEDA (0, Troll)

bani (467531) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088272)

omg gimp sux because it doesnt do everything photoshop does, everything gimp produces is amateurish and will never be as professional as anything made with photoshop, gimp is free only if your time is worthless, etc. kthxbye

omg gEDA sux because it doesnt do everything (some commercial product does), everything gEDA produces is amateurish and will never be as professional as anything made with (some commercial product), gEDA is free only if your time is worthless, etc. kthxbye

Re:the "gimp sux" argument applied to gEDA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088299)

Uh, yeah actually! Everything you said applies to both.

Re:the "gimp sux" argument applied to gEDA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088990)

Sounds about right. Professionals don't use either for the most part because they're not competitive.

Re:the "gimp sux" argument applied to gEDA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11089255)

Sounds about right. Professionals don't use either for the most part because they're not competitive.

This is completely false. I guess the people that use Film-GIMP are not professional.

Besides, the GIMP is not trying to compete with anything, and it is a useful tool in its own right.
I know a professional photographer that uses the gimp for everything that it is capable of doing for him because he enjoys its well designed script interface. He also has Photoshop of course and other software because gimp doesn't really work well for CMS and prepress, but most digital sources start out as sRGB and it is fine for working with that; you know (well, you probably don't) it is possible for rational people (especially successful professionals) to use more than one tool to fulfill their needs.

He is a professional; he makes his living off of it, which is by definition all professional implies. I don't see how one using the gimp or any one tool would disqualify a person from being professional.

PURE FUCKING RAGE GODDAMN I HATE SLASHDOT! FUCK U! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088278)

FUCK FUCK CUNT FUCKITY SHIT DAMNIT FUCK I WANT TO SEE BLOOD YOU COCKSUCKING FUCKS!
*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_
g_______________________________________________g_ _
o_/_____\_____________\____________/____\_______o_ _
a|_______|_____________\__________|______|______a_ _
t|_______`._____________|_________|_______:_____t_ _
s`________|_____________|________\|_______|_____s_ _
e_\_______|_/_______/__\\\___--___\\_______:____e_ _
x__\______\/____--~~__________~--__|_\_____|____x_ _
*___\______\_-~____________________~-_\____|____*_ _
g____\______\_________.--------.______\|___|____g_ _
o______\_____\______//_________(_(__>__\___|____o_ _
a_______\___.__C____)_________(_(____>__|__/____a_ _
t_______/\_|___C_____)/______\_(_____>__|_/_____t_ _
s______/_/\|___C_____)_______|__(___>___/__\____s_ _
e_____|___(____C_____)\______/__//__/_/_____\___e_ _
x_____|____\__|_____\\_________//_(__/_______|__x_ _
*____|_\____\____)___`----___--'_____________|__*_ _
g____|__\______________\_______/____________/_|_g_ _
o___|______________/____|_____|__\____________|_o_ _
a___|_____________|____/_______\__\___________|_a_ _
t___|__________/_/____|_________|__\___________|t_ _
s___|_________/_/______\__/\___/____|__________|s_ _
e__|_________/_/________|____|_______|_________|e_ _
x__|__________|_________|____|_______|_________|x_ _
*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_

# Please try to keep posts on topic. # Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads. # Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. # Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. # Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page) # If you want replies to your comments sent to you# Please try to keep posts on topic. # Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads. # Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. # Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. # Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page) # If you want replies to your comments sent to you# Please try to keep posts on topic. # Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads. # Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. # Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. # Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page) # If you want replies to your comments sent to you

Re:PURE FUCKING RAGE GODDAMN I HATE SLASHDOT! FUCK (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088365)

Hate to say it but this is the most constructive comment posted in response to this subject thus far

Re:PURE FUCKING RAGE GODDAMN I HATE SLASHDOT! FUCK (0, Offtopic)

upsidedown_duck (788782) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088690)


To be an effective AC, you should omit your picture next time.

Great for hobbyists maybe... but... (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088304)

... not yet ready for prime time. As a former engineer who's done work on many multi-signal, multi-layer boards, I can tell you there are reasons why "professional" design/cad software costs what it does. My congratulations go out to the developers, but let's not kid ourselves. No one's going to be jumping on this bandwagon unless they "have to." Just as only a handful of professional web designers would use notepad or vim for web page design, only a handful of hobbyists will use something like gEDA for serious designing.

Re:Great for hobbyists maybe... but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088458)

Wow, can I ask you why you're a 'former' engineer? Did you get tired of the abuse and go into another field?

Re:Great for hobbyists maybe... but... (2, Insightful)

808140 (808140) | more than 9 years ago | (#11089116)

I haven't used gEDA but I do work in semiconductors and the design software we use is pretty complex; frankly given the small user base gEDA has, it wouldn't surprise me if it were rather behind (you need a fairly large base of developers and users to get a complex open source project going well, I think). That of course is no reason to be disparaging -- the better it gets, the more users it'll have, the better it'll get, etc.

However, I think your bit about using vim or notepad to write webpages is a bit silly. While I agree that notepad would be pushing it, and being an emacs user myself, I'd like to say that vim is also pushing it, but let's get real. Real, professional web designers don't use stuff like Frontpage or its ilk. That's what unprofessional folks use. The typical web development flow is photoshop (or the GIMP, I guess) for design, which is then handed off to the implementor (who might be the same person) who typically writes all the HTML/CSS by hand (that is, with a plain text editor) and tweaks it until it displays properly on all supported browsers. We'd all love a program like Composer that produces clean, portable HTML/CSS, but unfortunately, these don't exist.

People that use Frontpage or Dreamweaver are almost exclusively non-professional folks. Professional web design companies (at least, all the ones I've worked with) have people that know design (these use photoshop) and people that know web development (these use a text editor). And that's how it's essentially always been.

I'm going to assume you don't know this. But you might be trolling...

Re:Great for hobbyists maybe... but... (2, Interesting)

Long-EZ (755920) | more than 9 years ago | (#11089385)


...only a handful of hobbyists will use something like gEDA for serious designing

That may be true... this week. But many people said the same sort of thing about Linux, and it's running tons of servers now and is rapidly making inroads on the desktop. Firefox is currently devouring Internet Explorer market share. OpenOffice.org is a great alternative to M$ Office. There are plenty of other examples.

You may be missing the point of open source software. By empowering users, any code that is used is inevitably improved. A critical mass phenomenon occurs where the more users there are, the faster the improvements occur.

EDA is a market that is definitely large enough to prosper as open source, especially given that a large percentage of the EDA users are geeks willing to add to or improve the code. gEDA seems poised to be THE open source EDA solution.

I use the Linux version of Eagle [cadsoftusa.com] , and I like it. I particularly like the autorouter. But it won't be long until gEDA will have an improved user interface, integrated PCB layout, an autorouter, etc. In other words, it'll be a full featured open source alternative to commercial EDA software, with none of the annual update fees and licensing hassles.

I expected open source software would be free, but I was most impressed by the way open source felt. It's hard to describe, but when I wasn't forced to scroll through a 140 KB end user licensing agreement and then suffer through a lot of copy protection crap during the installation, I felt like the programmers were on my side. I'm not opposed to people making money from software, but open source is a lot friendlier to the user, and that attitude carries over into everyday aspects such as open file formats that make it easier to export and translate data or share my work with other people, as opposed to proprietary data formats designed to lock in customers and ensure a steady revenue stream by maintaining a de facto software standard based solely on marketing.

There are too many advantages of open source for it not to be a dominant force in the immediate future of computing.

Clue alert (1)

Roadkills-R-Us (122219) | more than 9 years ago | (#11089570)

``Just as only a handful of professional web designers would use notepad or vim for web page design, only a handful of hobbyists will use something like gEDA for serious designing.''

Far more pros use vim than you might expect. Many of the tools available for web design have only recently become useful, and there's still not much that's very good for *nix. And yet, gazillions of web sites run on *nix, and many of those are built on *nix as well. Not all by a long shot, but lots.

VHDL + FPGA (1)

forsetti (158019) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088311)

I am lazy and don't want to look this all up myself if someone else already knows, so here is a question: Left over from my undergrad project, I have a FPGA (XC4010XL from Xilinx [xilinx.com] ) plus prototype board (XS40 from XESS [xess.com] ), and have used the Xilinx foundation tools to code up some nice VHDL designs under NT. How can I do similar design work under Linux? Will gEDA suffice? Or, will I need a slew of other tools? Any VHDL environments? Or maybe Verilog? Something else? Are any of you super-smart /.-ers doing this purely under linux?

Re:VHDL + FPGA (4, Informative)

russh347 (316870) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088372)

Last time I looked, gEDA had no support for VHDL. There is a GHDL project that is sort of useful, for simulation only. For FPGA synthesis, you're pretty much stuck with the Xilinx (or other commercial) tools. Xilinx webpack is available for free (though it's limited), and I've heard that the command line utilities can be made to run under wine. There are also linux versions of the tools, but I don't know if they have the same availability as Webpack.

Re:VHDL + FPGA (1)

ma++i+ude (580592) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088835)

There seems to be a kind of a geographical divide between VHDL and Verilog, the latter being more popular in the US. There are many more Verilog tools than VHDL. Sure, you can get some VHDL to Verilog converters but that doesn't really solve the problem.

For my course in VHDL [ic.ac.uk] last year, I completed the courseworks using GHDL [ghdl.free.fr] for simulation and GTKWave 2 [man.ac.uk] to view the waveforms. The combination was fine for my purpose but I can imagine it failing with more complex projects. For synthesis I can choose from tools by Altera, Xilinx and Synplicity, although that wasn't necessary for the coursework.

I was actually thinking of simply switching to Verilog. One language doesn't really offer any advantages over the other anyway.

Re:VHDL + FPGA (1)

Arjuna Theban (143564) | more than 9 years ago | (#11089225)

I was actually thinking of simply switching to Verilog. One language doesn't really offer any advantages over the other anyway.

Yea.. the only difference is that one (Verilog) is actually used outside of government/military projects and academia.

Re:VHDL + FPGA (1)

runderwo (609077) | more than 9 years ago | (#11089093)

The Linux version of the Xilinx Web Pack will be available (finally) in the spring, said a Xilinx guy who I recently contacted.

Re:VHDL + FPGA (2, Informative)

auraleyes (201856) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088399)

B4. What tools are frequently requested but are not going to be developed?

These tools are frequently requested, but will not be developed unless somebody steps up for the challenge.

o IC/ASIC designer.
o A VHDL/Verilog simulator.
The FreeHDL project will create a free VHDL simulator which gEDA will use.

Re:VHDL + FPGA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088916)

Good luck on that IC designer tool. That sphere is very rarefied, and the costs very high, I doubt that anyone in charge of ordering a batch of ICs from a foundry will trust the output of an open-source package... Just the way it is, I'm afraid.

Re:VHDL + FPGA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088420)

Icarus verilog (part of gEDA) is capable of synthesis to xilinx. However, only verilog.

Re:VHDL + FPGA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088796)

Xilinx has a version of Foundation that runs under Linux - one of the mags did an article about it. There is also a free, web-based tool called ISE from Xilinx.

You might also want to check out www.veripool.com for Verilog stuff

Re:VHDL + FPGA (1)

rcorlan (840426) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088869)

The newer versions of the Xilinx tools (after 5.2 or so) run natively under linux. They're not free, but reasonably priced. This takes care of place & route. For simulation, there is a VHDL front-end to gcc which works pretty well (or you can fork some serious cash for ModelSim which is also available for Linux).

Re:VHDL + FPGA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11089795)

Uhh, depends on what you mean by "reasonably priced" IIRC it's in the range of $2-3K. Cheap, by EDA standards (look at Mentor or Cadence or Symplicity), but for an individual, it's still out of reach.

Re:VHDL + FPGA (1)

Megane (129182) | more than 9 years ago | (#11089180)

I'd just be happy with an open-source program that can generate a fuse map for any of the three common GAL chips from some high-level description, whether PALASM or VHDL or something else. As far as I know, the only "free" software out there is closed-source and is only available in a DOS version. (Maybe there's something for Windows too now, but that still doesn't help if you don't use an x86 CPU.)

Re:VHDL + FPGA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11089286)

I hate to tell you but the best program to use to XC4010 devices is Xilinx Foundation 3.1 or 2.1. It comes with a few digital design books(search for Xilinx at Amazon,Fatbrain etc) and has VHDL/Verilog synthesizers and simulators for like $50. You can't use other synthesizers such as Synplicity unless they have the libraries for your device. In the case of the 4000 series devices, your only choice is FPGA Express(which comes with Foundation). There is a webpack version for 4000 series devices but I uninstalled it as it didn't come with FPGA Express. I don't know if you can even get a license for it anymore.
I've used the XS40 boards for many projects and I don't believe you will ever get the device programming tools working under Linux. Getting them to talk to a non-standard address parallel port was trouble enough.

BLOOD GUSHING FROM ANIMAL ANUSES MAKES ME HARD! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088313)

I WANT TO SHOVE KNIVES UP THE TENDER ANUSES OF BABY FERRETS THEN LUSTFULLY DRINK THAT RECTAL AMBROSIA!

*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_
g_______________________________________________g_ _
o_/_____\_____________\____________/____\_______o_ _
a|_______|_____________\__________|______|______a_ _
t|_______`._____________|_________|_______:_____t_ _
s`________|_____________|________\|_______|_____s_ _
e_\_______|_/_______/__\\\___--___\\_______:____e_ _
x__\______\/____--~~__________~--__|_\_____|____x_ _
*___\______\_-~____________________~-_\____|____*_ _
g____\______\_________.--------.______\|___|____g_ _
o______\_____\______//_________(_(__>__\___|____o_ _
a_______\___.__C____)_________(_(____>__|__/____a_ _
t_______/\_|___C_____)/______\_(_____>__|_/_____t_ _
s______/_/\|___C_____)_______|__(___>___/__\____s_ _
e_____|___(____C_____)\______/__//__/_/_____\___e_ _
x_____|____\__|_____\\_________//_(__/_______|__x_ _
*____|_\____\____)___`----___--'_____________|__*_ _
g____|__\______________\_______/____________/_|_g_ _
o___|______________/____|_____|__\____________|_o_ _
a___|_____________|____/_______\__\___________|_a_ _
t___|__________/_/____|_________|__\___________|t_ _
s___|_________/_/______\__/\___/____|__________|s_ _
e__|_________/_/________|____|_______|_________|e_ _
x__|__________|_________|____|_______|_________|x_ _
*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_g_o_a_t_s_e_x_*_
# Please try to keep posts on topic. # Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads. # Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. # Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. # Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page)# Please try to keep posts on topic. # Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads. # Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. # Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. # Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page)# Please try to keep posts on topic. # Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads. # Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. # Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. # Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page)

Re:BLOOD GUSHING FROM ANIMAL ANUSES MAKES ME HARD! (-1, Offtopic)

grub (11606) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088485)


hahahaha! Thanks for the laugh :) "RECTAL AMBROSIA" oh man...

Uh "mature" might be stretching it a bit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088343)

For digital designs there is as yet no SystemC integration for Icarus verilog or a half way usable digital debugger/waveform viewer.

I know, you can use GTKwave but seriously, that tool is insanely slow and buggy and featureless. Their site got vandalized like two months ago and it never even got fixed (maybe in the last couple days). Icarus verilog is also slow although really surprisingly usable otherwise. Anyone who has used a professional environment would rather jump off a cliff than use these tools.

I also know that for Icarus you can use vpi to integrate systemC but that is just way too much work compared to what it takes to make these things work in other tools.

Very nice work but no where near good enough for real design. Hopefully in a couple years gEDA will really mature to where giant monopolies like Cadence will shrivel up and die (as they and their products deserve)

Honestly there is a real opportunity for either small companies or OSS efforts to rip the belly out of cadence and synopsis because their tools are not great either. However, they do everything you need to them to do in their own painful way. gEDA just isn't there yet.

Ronja (2, Informative)

Libor Vanek (248963) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088455)

Just some info about Ronja - it has inspired a lot of similar projects in Prague (it's all developed by quite small group of ppl in Czech Free Net - www.czfree.net) and there are already running some prototypes of Ronja or derived (non-GPL) projects on 100 Mbit optical data link!

Unfortunately, main Ronja HW developer - Karel Clock Kulhavy - is very "hard to communicate" man...

Not very good and not so popular (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088461)

A CD distribution I know includes scripts to download gEDA from the net: they surely have more than 800 users.. so 800 downloads seems a pretty lame number.

Two things that bug me... (4, Insightful)

SagSaw (219314) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088462)

about gSchem:

First, the developer's insistance that power pins on logic IC's be hardwired, in the symbol, to the nets 'VCC' 'VDD' 'VSS' 'GND' as appropriate. Heaven forbid I have a mixed voltage design or have multiple ground nodes.

Second, there seems to be no concept of scale to the components, or agreement as to how large a resistor should be relative to a transitor relative to the connection spacing on an IC. Capacitors and resistors appear larger than inductors, while all the descrite components, IMHO, are way to large compared to the connection spacing on IC's. This makes it hard to create a schematic that is clear and easy to read.

While the interface is really pretty good, they need to put quite a bit of work into the symbol library to make it especially useful.

Re:Two things that bug me... (1)

dpilot (134227) | more than 9 years ago | (#11089224)

I looked into gschem a few years back, and haven't had time, since. At the time, it didn't have what it took for VLSI schematic capture, since it really didn't work well with circuit hierarchy. It really seems to be oriented toward schematic capture for printed circuit boards.

On the other hand, on any given design I'll have many layers of hierarchy, circuits in circuits in circuits, etc. I need the ability to take any arbitrary circuit and create a symbol for it, so it can be used in another circuit. Further, I'd really like to parameterize some of those symbols, so I can tell an inverter or nand gate what the device sizes of the FETs inside will be. I mentioned this type of thing on the list at the time, and though they were interested in the VLSI problem, they were more focused on PCBs.

I can accept the VLSI design is a very small market, and that PCB is an appropriate focus. But looking at the page, I see that they may well support hierarchy.

Shy of emerging gschem (and dependencies) to try it out has anyone used it with hierarchical designs, and can comment?
(anything about translators for mainstream tools?)

Re:Two things that bug me... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11089326)

I hacked out all the implicit power and grounds in the design of my single board computer. It has 6 power suppply voltages (12V, 5V, 3.3V, 2.5V, 1.8V, 1.2V). Not a big deal at all.

Darrell Harmon

It's a good project (2, Interesting)

jd (1658) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088544)

No question about it. I've been following it for a while. There are some hiccups (ngspice died for a few years, had one update in January, then seems to have died again) but that's easily fixed by getting it some publicity, so people know it's out there.


I would like gEDA to talk with the University of Manchester, who have some excellent electrical design software for asynchronous systems. They've a huge pool of software resources which nobody ever sees because there's no reason to think it might be out there. (There's a Freshmeat entry for one of their packages - guess who added it! - but half of those who last saw it on the front page have died of old age.)


There's a lot out there that could be used, pooled, collected and gathered. And, damnit, it should be. gEDA is doing a great job, but electrical engineering is a vey big field and gEDA doesn't cover more than a tiny fraction of the problem-space.

Re:It's a good project (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11088890)

FYI, ngspice [sourceforge.net] issued a release on September 5, 2004. When did Berkeley Spice have a last release? Oh, maybe 5 or 6 years ago (it's officially dead--no more updates from Berkeley).

Ngspice is a vast improvement its predecessor in at least one important area: Ngspice is eminently hackable and fixable because it uses normal makefiles and GNU configure. (Try fixing Berkeley Spice for a real pain in the ass. It has the most asshole make system you have ever seen).

Open Source in EDA (5, Interesting)

wannasleep (668379) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088582)

Just few comments to clarify what we are talking about here

First of all, EDA (Electronic Design Automation) is a 30+ years old industry (maybe even 40+, but I wasn't born then). It spans tools whose cost goes from hundreds dollars to few hundred thousands dollars per license. It also spans several fields, from computer science, to systems theory, to physics, to micro-electronics, to chemistry, etc. etc.

The typical flows for a successfull tools are:
  • a PhD student or his advisor has an idea, writes papers about it and maybe even implements it. Then he starts a company and they make milions with it. Synopsys and Cadence (the two biggest players of the market) were started like that.
  • The same people have an idea and actually have a full implementation and they sustain the basic research. The tool is put in open source fashion (rarely is GPL'd) and every company can modify it. The shiniest example is SPICE [berkeley.edu] . The first version was written more than 30 years ago. Berkeley still owns it and everybody implements variants that are more or less compatible. Either Commercial eda tools (HSPICE, spectre, eldo, adssim) or proprietary implementations that are used within a company (TI spice, ST spice, motorola own spice, etc.). Analog design wouldn't exist without spice.
  • Companies try to dominate the market. They figure out that they need to develop and control a platform. They make it open source (of course all its products work on it, more or less). An example is Cadence with open access [si2.org] . The idea of course is opposed by competitors who try to pass their own platform. Eventually they will reach an agreement

Of course, there are plenty of others, like magma's case and also plenty of unsuccessfull ventures, but in general EDA has benefitted a lot from open source, and some of the biggest names in the university are still open source fans.

Also try Electric (2, Informative)

hexghost (444585) | more than 9 years ago | (#11088584)

Don't forget Electric, an open source VLSI tool written in java. Sun recently interviewed the author about the challenge of rewriting it in java. Here's the article (with download) [sun.com] .

I still prefer OrCAD SDT/PCB 386 (1)

tzanger (1575) | more than 9 years ago | (#11089310)

Protel, OrCAD 9, Eagle... none of these can hold a candle to the ease and simplicity of SDT/PCB386. Pretty much everything has dumped the use of FAST keyboard use to pointy-clicky insanity.

It ain't a word processor or spreadsheet, guys, it's electronic design. I can route by hand with a keyboard faster than I can with a mouse. pwb,cursor,cursor,cursor... piece of cake. Autorouters are getting better but still suck, IMO. And yes, I do new, modern designs (TSSOP, BGA and all the latest part forms, 6 layer boards, you name it.)

I did have PCB386 working under DOSEMU but I've since forgotten how I did it. SDT was working fine but PCB was giving me all kinds of issues. I wish I'd written it down, now I'm gonna have to go back and try to figure it out again. :-)

I haven't checked out gEDA in a long time, I wonder if they're following the path of the big boys (WIMP systems) or if they've come to the understanding that keyboard driven designs aren't dead, nor are they dying.

Open source KVM hardware and software (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11089356)

These guys [opengear.com] are working on a linux based KVM-over-IP project with software and the hardware design being made available as open source. They have a Sourceforge project site [sourceforge.net] too.

Good definition of the GPL.. (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11089369)

[The GNU Public License] lets users download source code and do anything they want with it. But there are some ground rules if people start to distribute software commercially. For one, they have to make the source available.

That's not a bad way to describe the GPL. Just delete that word "commercially" and you've got a nice FUD-free synopsis... better than what I read in a lot of magazines like InfoWorld, etc.

Used it back in the day (1)

The_Wilschon (782534) | more than 9 years ago | (#11089801)

I used gEDA (mostly gschem at that point) back in my sophomore year in high school, (what 4 years ago I guess) and I thought it worked well, very very well considering that it was in alpha at that point I believe. I was designing a fairly simple board to produce some basic square wave output to a speaker for a creative problem solving organization called Destination ImagiNation [destinatio...nation.org] .

Of course, I wasn't designing a PC board to be etched, but just drawing the schematic up real nice. And it was by no means a professional project. But for my (extreme low-end) (we had a cost limit of about 100$ for the whole deal, of which my sound board was a very small part) use, it worked excellently, and there have been four years of development since!

Way to go!

Now we only need... (2, Insightful)

gremlins (588904) | more than 9 years ago | (#11089805)

Now we only need some place that can print the circuts once we design them, mabey even make your own custom pci cards, or opensource card designs
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