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Microsoft Compares Windows And Linux

timothy posted more than 9 years ago | from the horses-for-courses dept.

Operating Systems 468

Halcyon-X writes "Microsoft is hosting a discussion on Windows and Linux between its two top Linux consultants. Martin Taylor and Bill Hilf talk about the various OSS licenses, focus on the open source development model, competing implementations of administration tools, TCO, and risk assessment. Also available in offline formats, doc (which looks fine in OpenOffice.org) and wma as well."

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Linux users... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11208281)

Check your IQ [dijialbum.com] with WINE. (windows users can do it natively)

Same old, same old... (5, Insightful)

FyRE666 (263011) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208282)

"...For example, one thing that normally comes up is that Microsoft is anti-open source, and they've used some of our activities as Microsoft versus open source. This is definitely not the case. Yes..."

And that's the point at which Martin Taylor (the MS talking head) confirmed that this discussion was yet another dull FUD exercise and I stopped reading. Seriously, this is getting very old now. They need some fresh new script-writers over at MS, otherwise they're in danger of losing even their most avid fans!

Re:Same old, same old... (3, Funny)

savagedome (742194) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208296)

Windows is open source. Its unbelievable but true [slashdot.org]

Re:Same old, same old... (1)

JollyFinn (267972) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208377)

Windows results open source by a glass cut.

Re:Same old, same old... (3, Insightful)

Twanfox (185252) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208405)

Windows is not Open Source as most people use the term. Windows even goes so far as to call it's program Shared Source, which means you can look, but you cannot touch. I imagine there are even provisions in there that forbid you from working on competing open source projects such as Linux.

Of course, Windows is only Open Source once you pony up some dough, or have significant buying power in order to make Microsoft feel it's worth it. Joe Schmoe developer isn't going to be seeing Windows' source any time soon. If you doubt that, go download the source for us so we can see how easy it is.

Re:Same old, same old... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11208460)

Personally I would not want to be working on a competing project if I know the code to a closed source alternative (or any alternative with an incompatible license, etc.). The reason is very simple: I may copy parts into the OSS project without realizing it and that just creates problems down the road.

Re:Same old, same old... (2, Interesting)

Dogers (446369) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208418)

I know loads of people are going to whinge at this, so like Martin says at the end - LET THEM KNOW!

He gives his email address, martinta@microsoft.com - email him and let him know why you use linux. Get chipping!

Re:Same old, same old... (1)

Richard_at_work (517087) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208443)

The thing is, Martin Taylor is right, and your post proves that. MS has proven very willing to deal with opensource, and indeed the GPL, several times - case in point the Services for Unix toolkit, which has the added benefit of being able to download various GPL licensed tools from Microsoft servers. Over the past year MS has released several old and new projects under None GPL compatable but OpenSource licenses (GPL isnt the only opensource license - live with it). The thing that people cannot understand is that opensource is not best for Microsofts core business from Microsofts point of view, so when Microsoft wont release the code for windows or office, people assume that its an all or nothing scenario.

Re:Same old, same old... (2, Funny)

deaddrunk (443038) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208493)

We know the only way we win with customers is by having a much better solution to offer our customers.

Hahahahahahahahaha

Re:Same old, same old... (5, Interesting)

brad-x (566807) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208671)

"yet another dull FUD exercise"

I'm finding it amusing how easily everyone is dismissing this rather than paying attention to it and gleaning important points.

Martin for example quite rightly points out that IBM, Oracle etc. are not throwing their lot in selflessly and wholeheartedly with Linux, they're augmenting a customer solution with open source products where their own proprietary software is lacking (they need an OS stack on which to run websphere, for example).

These kinds of points are strong, not because they're obvious, but because they indicate that in a lot of respects, adopting an open source operating system does not mean embracing free and open software. There is always cost and propriety.

Another point which isn't often raised and which Microsoft is hammering on is yes, their solutions are at times more expensive, but do they provide more value to the customer, and this is the point which is most often dismissed as FUD, although it's valid.

Objectively speaking (objectivity being in short supply in this environment) some Microsoft products do provide better value in terms of functionality. From my point of view, Server 2003 is an excellent turn-key workgroup server, Office 2003 is an excellent collaboration suite (spare me the Linux banter about samba and OpenOffice.org, it's not the same). Whereas for enterprise level services such as public web services, e-mail, border security, I'd place more value in UNIX-based systems.

The foregoing is not FUD. It's "the right tool for the right job". Microsoft doesn't strongly compete in top-level enterprise services like border security, and it doesn't do a great deal of business replacing UNIX systems or placing itself in environments where UNIX would ordinarily be. Why? Because it doesn't provide as much value. But at the workgroup level, they're a competitor and everyone just has to deal with that.

FIRST POST (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11208287)

FiRST PoST YEaH!!!!! SuCK mY BaLLS CmdrTeaBagger....

A real hoot! (1)

BlackMesaResearchFac (593320) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208289)

Does anyone think there will be real conversation taking place or will it simply be a FUDfest?

Re:A real hoot! (2, Insightful)

AviLazar (741826) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208370)

Actually I think there will be some insightful talks. The reason is because whenever a company hosts a talk about their product vs another product - they have the burdeon to make the discussion fair and informative. People (i.e. /.) will be looking for MS to say "Windows rules, Linux sucks" and MS knows this. While they might slant it a bit in their favor - it would be very bad for them to rip up Linux w/o justifying each and every insult.

Re:A real hoot! (1)

cHiphead (17854) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208532)

it would be very bad for them to rip up Linux w/o justifying each and every insult

Well that certainly hasn't stopped them yet, haven't you been paying attention?

Cheers.

Re:A real hoot! (1)

AviLazar (741826) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208616)

In the media, doing interviews, etc sure. In a debate - there are different rules and guidelines. They want people to watch and listen to these debates, and they probably want people to either convert from Linux to Windows or if they are Windows fan-geeks to re-affirm this notion. They will not accomplish either if they do not make each argument qualified and give the Linux side a strong fighting chance.

But only time will tell what really happens.

Re:A real hoot! (1)

pe1rxq (141710) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208398)

I thought that usually in a discusion you are supposed to discuss oposing viewpoints.....

This read like:

drone1: blah

drone2: exactly and blah blah

drone1: yeah! blah!

Hasn't this been tried before (2, Interesting)

screeble (664005) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208293)

Wasn't there an idiotic TCO sheet running around the internet a while back?

I didn't RTFA but ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11208298)

I didn't RTFA but ... I can guess their conclusion: Windows is better than Linux.

Next Slashdot story: Linux enthusiasts come to the conclusion that Linux is better than Windows!

Re:I didn't RTFA but ... (5, Funny)

Mjlner (609829) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208378)

"I didn't RTFA but ... I can guess their conclusion: Windows is better than Linux."

MOD PARENT UP +1 Psychic!

MS doing a linux convo? (2, Insightful)

jimius (628132) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208299)

Why do I feel like these "consultants" will favour Windows anyway, and bring examples like how Linux infringes on a ton of stuff and throw in some SCO as well.

Re:MS doing a linux convo? (1)

Flaming Foobar (597181) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208709)

Why do I feel like these "consultants" will favour Windows anyway, and bring examples like how Linux infringes on a ton of stuff and throw in some SCO as well.

In that case, I hope they are paying for their corporate licenses (from TFA):

Bill Hilf: [...] Having run large Linux environments before, and now I run a lab here in Redmond with about 200 servers, we run over 40 different types of Linux distribution. We also run a lot of Unix and a lot of Windows, of course. We use SMS Vintela [Management Extensions] here to manage that heterogeneous system. It's a good example of how we've taken a Microsoft technology, SMS, and built it in a way that's open and allowing our partners, such as Vintela, which is a Microsoft partner, to build on top of our software stack to enable management in a heterogeneous environment. So it's a nice proof point of both: how do you do interoperability across different types of systems, but also how do you build software that other people can build upon.

Am I really the only one who thought it was absolutely delightful to read relatively unbiased information about Linux from MS consultants. They do mention that when choosing a Linux distribution for a mission-critical system, it's good to keep SCO's claims in mind and see what kind of indemnification is needed and what HP, IBM et al are offering. I agree that Bill & Martin are slightly tilted in the Microsoft direction, but it could be much much worse.

General Manager of Platform Strategy (1)

necromcr (836137) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208301)

"As General Manager of Platform Strategy, I'm responsible for ensuring that our customers understand the benefits of the Microsoft platform."

Does that mean he from the marketing department?

more publicity (1)

adeydas (837049) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208308)

another publicity stunt, ignore them...

Microsoft compares Windows and GNU/Linux (5, Funny)

PtrToNull (742886) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208327)

Please use the correct title, RMS is rolling in his grave right now.

Oh wait.. he's not dead yet.



-- this sig is a speck of your imagination, enjoy it.

Re:Microsoft compares Windows and GNU/Linux (1)

Anarke_Incarnate (733529) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208393)

RMS is not dead, he just smells that way

Reminds me... (4, Funny)

djupedal (584558) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208328)

,,,of when my GF compared herself to the x-wife. I knew the outcome from the beginning...who wouldn't?

Re:Reminds me... (5, Funny)

savagedome (742194) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208388)

x-wife

X-wife?? I bow to your geekhood. You truly are a geek Sir. And I mean it in a good way.

Re:Reminds me... (2, Funny)

SpongeBobLinuxPants (840979) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208462)

x-wife

What is this x-wife program that you speak of? Does it work with Gnome?

Re:Reminds me... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11208476)

Program? I thought x-wife was some new email header.

Re:Reminds me... (3, Funny)

djupedal (584558) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208490)

Actually, she was more of what I recall as being the 'Y' wife....why did I marry you - why don't you wash the car - why don't you shut up - why don't you drop dead - why don't you go to hell - why don't you get lost - why don't you get a life...that sort of thing :)

Re:Reminds me... (1)

Taladar (717494) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208496)

He married one of the female members of the X-Men?

Gotta love 'em... (3, Funny)

mogrify (828588) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208339)

.../2/d/4/2d4d387b-97af-4923-897d-320fe070e864/...

...friendly URLs.

Re:Gotta love 'em... (1)

NetNifty (796376) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208358)

That's obviously the digital signature!

Re:Gotta love 'em... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11208362)

Yeah, that's what those dashes are for

Since when does Linux compete? (5, Interesting)

parvenu74 (310712) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208341)

Someone just got finished telling me in another thread (the speil on Vadalia Desktop [slashdot.org] ) that the linux community is all about choice and is not interested in competing with Windows. If that is the case and the truth, why do you even care about a story like this, or care that M$ thinks they are competing with you? After all, it's all about freedom of choice isn't it -- or it is only about choice as long as the choice is Linux?

Re:Since when does Linux compete? (2, Insightful)

gl4ss (559668) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208363)

because ms has a nasty way of 'competing'?

linux community!= linux companies, which ARE in direct competition with windows(anyone who would say that a companies producing an operating system, spreadsheet and writing applications weren't in competition with microsoft are idiots ).

Re:Since when does Linux compete? (2, Insightful)

SuperQ (431) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208461)

You're right. I don't give a rats ass that my next door neighbor runs XP on their computer. That's their choice. I personaly run Linux, at home and at work.

Linux was started becuase _we_ the community wanted it. Then it was realized that Linux could replace windows. Sirens sounded at Microsoft. We became their cometition.. but that's not something Microsoft is used to.. a non-profit community was now competition. Sure, they can slam some linux companies into the ground and feel satisfied they took care of the competition. But there are a dozen companies that will take their work and sprout up in their place. Then there are groups like Debian, who no PR department in their right mind would attack.

Re:Since when does Linux compete? (1)

nickname225 (840560) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208569)

Victor Laszlo: And what if you track down these men and kill them? What if you murdered all of us? From every corner of your Republic, thousands would rise to take our places. Even Nazis can't kill that fast. Major Strasser: Herr Laszlo, you have a reputation for eloquence which I can now understand. But in one respect you are mistaken. You said the enemies of the Reich could all be replaced. But there is one exception, no one could take your place in the event anything unfortunate shoudl occur to you while you were trying to escape.

Re:Since when does Linux compete? (2, Insightful)

mogrify (828588) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208491)

It's not entirely about free (as in speech) choice, although that's part of it... among other things, it's about raising the standards of software practices. It would make the 'Net a more secure, more stable system if more standards and software were subject to the most rigorous scrutiny possible. At this point, the open source model is the best thing there is for knowing that everything is as bug-free as possible. Two (or thousands of) heads being better than one. Except for improving the general quality of systems on a network, I could care less whether people I don't know want to use MS. But the MS vs Linux debate does affect everyone, ultimately, because we're all on the same network.

Ass Backwards Fan Boy (1)

elementary_penguin (810388) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208584)

The reason Martin Taylor has a job is because MS can't compete with Linux. MS lost the server market, IE is losing market share at an alarming rate, even MS's own magazine Slate had an article telling IE users to switch to FireFox for their own safty. Entire countries are switching. The EU is even taking action against MS and software patents are being questioned in the EU. The point of the article and the redicule it recives is to point out that MS can't compete. Martin Taylor bull shit is all they can produce, not better software. ;) Have a nice day.

Re:Since when does Linux compete? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11208595)

Because it's compete or die. MS =does= care about choice. It cares about ensuring that there =isn't= one. MS has to be fought to ensure that a choice remains legal and viable.

Re:Since when does Linux compete? (1)

Rakishi (759894) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208642)

The concepts of "competing" and "choice" are not mutually exclusive. It all depends on how you compete, if you try and have people switch to your product but don't lock them in or otherwise force them to switch then you are both competing and giving them a choice.

YOU ARE PISSING ME OFF /. EDITORS! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11208348)

The amount of garbage like this post about Microsoft has grown beyond anything I can stomach. For Christ's sake get some fucking editorial standards and stop approving every single piece of shit some walking Microsoft ad decides to send in!

Whew (4, Funny)

mrpuffypants (444598) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208349)

Finally, an impartial review of Windows vs. Linux. I have no doubt that at the end of this article the Microsoft engineers will recommend the clearly superior Linux OS over Windows Server 2003.

/me goes to RTFM and weep in the corner.

"Linux consultants"? (3, Insightful)

Mjlner (609829) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208350)

That is not entirely correct, since their objectives are to help people migrate away from linux. A linux consultant is an expert that consults on the topic of linux.

And yes, I did RTFA, so I know that neither Taylor or Hilf, nor Microsoft use the term. They are, in fact, more accurate and honest about what the do. Taylor "[ensures] customers understand the benefits of the Microsoft platform" and Hilf "[leads the] Linux and Open Source Technology Analysis Center" at Microsoft.

Great marketing (3, Insightful)

OwlWhacker (758974) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208356)

It ends with a great piece from Martin Taylor on how fantastic Windows Server 2003 is. Then it points to www.getthefacts.com [getthefacts.com] .

That's not really comparing Windows and Linux, it's issuing more FUD, and another attempt at pushing those NT users to 2003 rather than an alternative OS.

Re:Great marketing - Set phasers on "ignore" (1)

Progman3K (515744) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208474)

It's simple really;

I've known and used Windows since 1989.
I've known and used Linux since 2000.

And for the last year, I've used linux exclusively.

Linux is better, pound for pound.

Marketing BS won't change that.

Re:Great marketing - Set phasers on "ignore" (1)

TeraCo (410407) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208522)

PS: Your opinion is not fact.

Re:Great marketing - Set phasers on "ignore" (4, Funny)

zarr (724629) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208573)

In my opinion his opinion is fact.

Re:Great marketing (1)

dtfinch (661405) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208581)

It's not even new FUD. They're just regurgitating old information and misinformation from their Get the Facts campaign.

Re:Great marketing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11208661)

In other news, Osama Bin Laden hosts a conference comparing the merits of Liberal Democracy and Theocratic Islam, Fidel Castro's representatives openly discuss the merits of capitalism and communism, and the RIAA hosts a seminar for debating the merits of fair use.

Nobody believes this dog and pony show is anything other than preaching to the converted. There are a lot of people who have bet their career on the Microsoft Way and they love this kind of reinforcement.

Alright... as you say (5, Insightful)

savagedome (742194) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208360)

From the article

We believe the way to integrate software, and the way to get software to work in a heterogeneous environment, is through promoting open standards

Does Microsoft Office ring any bell Mr. Bill Hilf?!
Put your actions where your mouth is and open up .doc

Re:Alright... as you say (1)

shwouchk (834020) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208426)

does Microsoft Internet Explorer ring any bells?

Re:Alright... as you say (1)

chain_from_hell (599670) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208433)


to work in a heterogeneous environment

assuming you want to create a heterogeneous environment. He is in fact right. To establish a monopoly, you have to create a homogenous environment, and lock everybody out with closed standards.

Hey its Bill And Marty from KBBL (5, Funny)

fireman sam (662213) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208364)

After reading that I couldn't get the image of Bill and Marty from KBBL out of my head.

Marty: Hey, thanks Bill. Yes having access to the source code or the "building instructions" is evil. And we at Microsoft will keep you save from all the evil stuff.

Bill: That's right Marty. And the next person who rings in will win a months supply of IE updates.

Marty: Watch out Bill, that slashdot crowd is trying to take us off the air.

Bill: That's ok Marty, we have the latest IIS, we are as safe as... NO CARRIER

Decouple the OS from the apps? (5, Insightful)

jacobcaz (91509) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208366)

  • So to give you an example, like I said I've run a lot of Linux shops in the past, I run a lot of commercial Linux here. If we have a particular problem in a certain piece of software, anything from let's say from a Kerberos library to Apache to Samba to any other application that might be on that distribution when we go through that chain of support with our commercial Linux distributor, there is a gap between what they're able to supply and what they have to go back to the open source community to get an answer for to get it resolved. In many cases the response is we need to stick with the version that's available at the time that we purchased that distribution, so for example if I'm running Apache 1.3 on my Red Hat Enterprise server, although I may want Apache 2.0 because it might have new features or it might have some new capabilities, I'm outside of my support model now with Red Hat. This is just an example.
Interesting he talks about this, but don't you usually have seperate support contracts for the OS and your core apps? I have a beast of a box that runs Windows 2000 Advanced Server but I'm free to run any RDBMS or web server I desire on it. I don't like IIS? Fine, I install WebLogic or WebSphere and I don't lose my support of the OS from Microsoft. I am currently running MSSQL Server 2000, but that could just as easily be Oracle 10g and I don't worry about support for either the app or the OS.

In fact I don't want to worry about whether my OS vendor will support my web suite - it should be decoupled so I can run the apps I need to run my business whether it's IIS 6.0, Apache 2.0 or WebLogic 6.1.

Re:Decouple the OS from the apps? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11208489)

This is true, but say you have an authentication problem between the OS and the Database. If you are running Oracle, you have to call Oracle to help and hope you are talking to a support guy that understands the issue. If you are running SQL Server, you can call up MS and get support for the entire stack at once. To me, thats the main advantage of being a homogenious shop and what I think they were talking about in the article.

Re:Decouple the OS from the apps? (4, Insightful)

FreeLinux (555387) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208608)

Well, look at it from another angle. One that more closely parallels their example.

Suppose I am running Windows 2000 and it comes with IIS 5.0. I'm tired of all the security problems and it lacks a couple of new features that IIS 6.0 has and I really want. So I install IIS 6.0, from a Windows 2003 CD, onto my Windows 2000 system. Surprise, surprise, it doesn't work. There are all sorts of library issues and other problems.

So, I call Microsoft for support. Their support tells me that IIS 6.0 on Windows 2000 isn't supported. They say that I need to stay with IIS 5.0 or, better yet, upgrade everything to Windows 2003 which comes with IIS 6.0

How is this example any different than the one that they gave?

What an utter crock o' SHITE! (2, Insightful)

Safety Cap (253500) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208688)

Back in another age, I worked in tech support for several well-known companies. On page 'one' of every tech support manual every written, it says

In the event that the user is having a problem with our software and another company's, never attempt to fix the problem. Instead, insist that the problem lies in the other software. Tell the user to disable the other software and the problem should go away <g>.

If the user says that he called the other company's tech support and they told him to disable our software, tell him that doing so will not fix the problem.

In the unlikely event that the user is conferencing in someone from the other company's tech support, insist that the issue lies with either an API or the other software's int21 handler. The other tech will deny the charges. Continue to volley back and forth for a while (remember, the user is probably calling long-distance to two numbers, so it is in his interest to get off the phone quickly), then finally get the other company's tech research number and tell them that you'll have our tech research contact theirs. Make a note in the customer db that the problem is closed: research, and end the call. Do not give the user a timeline for resolution. Under no circumstances admit or imply that the problem might lie with our software. You can offer again to the user to disable the other software with the assurance the problem will go away.

Oh, and the point of TS is not to solve problems. It is an arm of marketing, to help PHBs think they're getting value for the money and pacify users. Over 95% of the calls are invariably showing users how to do something. About 4% are because the user doesn't know what he's doing at all and screwed himself, and 1% is due to low-grade bugs that will never be fixed because they don't happen to enough people.

Unbiased (3, Funny)

Stiletto (12066) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208372)


This should be as unbiased as "Slashdot hosts a discussion between the RIAA and the MPAA".

Hi. I'm Troy McClure (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11208373)

Hi. I'm Troy McClure. You might remember me from hosting videos of other impartial Microsoft seminars as "Apple: A Scourge or a Mere Annoyance?" and "*BSD: If It is Not Dead It Should Be"

Please mod parent up! (1)

TrollBridge (550878) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208572)

Spending some karma to get parent modded up. That was some funny shit, man!

Spoiler Warning! (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11208380)

They found Window's was better.

Fair and Balanced! (1, Insightful)

Luscious868 (679143) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208381)

Microsoft is hosting a discussion on Windows and Linux between its two top Linux consultants

I bet that will be about as fair and balanced as a typical Al-Jazeera broadcast.

Re:Fair and Balanced! (0, Flamebait)

deaddrunk (443038) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208512)

Or any US media outlet.

Re:Fair and Balanced! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11208541)

as fair and balanced as a typical Al-Jazeera broadcast
... or perhaps a Fox news item?

Microsoft (0, Redundant)

Shulai (34423) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208382)

I don't think any Windows/Linux discussion from Microsoft worth anything.
Too much FUD already. Why caring about this?

Re:Microsoft (3, Interesting)

savagedome (742194) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208441)

It's not about caring. It's about the fact that they are recognizing it as big enough force to start swatting away the arguments in their own way.

What is that quote from Mahatma Gandhi that I keep reading on /. pretty often. It goes something like 'First they ignore you. Then they make fun of you. Then they fight you. Then you win'.

Its at 'Then they fight you' stage.

Just the latest MSFT attack (4, Interesting)

HangingChad (677530) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208394)

Before it was paid for TCO studies that...shockingly...showed MSFT products with the best TCO. This is just a new tact to smear OSS. As illustrated by this recent article [boston.com] .

Some of those efforts are legitimately aimed at making sure a proprietary code base isn't inappropriately using open source code. But it doesn't take much tweaking to try and make OSS look like some kind of virus. An image based on ignorance, but when has MSFT ever hesitated to promote an uneducated view when it suits them?

They're really turning into a sad, pathetic company. It's bad enough they produce bloated, insecure, DRM crippled, overpriced software, but to magnify it by being such low class PR whore is just embarrassing.

MSFT is living proof that no good deed goes unpunished.

They still don't get it. (3, Insightful)

corporatemutantninja (533295) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208399)

I quote: "...promoting open standards that can allow companies like Microsoft, IBM, Oracle, Sun, as well as other types of software and other types of technologies to work together and still co-exist in a competitive environment."

What seems to be missing here is "...and small, new companies that challenge the assumptions of these established players."

Re:They still don't get it. (1)

brad-x (566807) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208518)

Small new companies that can't afford to purchase more expensive, perhaps more useful (to them) solutions?

It took my company 4 years of Linux use before it grew to the point of needing to adopt a Windows solution internally.

Makes About As Much Sense As... (2, Funny)

JohnPerkins (243021) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208414)

Herr Goebbels investigating issues of journalistic integrity in 1940s Germany.

Re:Makes About As Much Sense As... (2, Funny)

uradu (10768) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208481)

Reminds me of the comfy fireside chats between Hitler and Mussolini regarding the relative merits of representative democracy and genocidal totalitarianism. Ah, those good old Telefunken sets made you think you were right there next to them...

Impartial (1)

datadriven (699893) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208423)

You mean Microsoft produces promotional material that's biased towards themselves? What's the world coming to?

Synopsis Anyone? (1)

MicroBerto (91055) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208428)

I'm all for "reading the article", but this is far too long and I have a bit of work to do. Can anyone post a brief synopsis of what they're saying?

Here ya go (3, Funny)

FunWithHeadlines (644929) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208629)

"I'm all for "reading the article", but this is far too long and I have a bit of work to do. Can anyone post a brief synopsis of what they're saying?"

Sure:

FUD
Corporate-speak FUD
Slick FUD
Unbelievably clumsy and obvious FUD
Laughable FUD
Bone to the FOSS community
FUD
Conclusion: FUD

This says it all: (4, Insightful)

rabbit78 (822735) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208430)

As General Manager of Platform Strategy, I'm responsible for ensuring that our customers understand the benefits of the Microsoft platform. I also spend a fair amount of time doing a level of comparative analysis, making sure our customers understand the differences between Microsoft and some of the key alternatives in the marketplace, specifically Linux and open-source alternatives. Today, Bill Hilf and I will be spending time talking about that. Welcome, Bill.

We both work for Microsoft... (4, Insightful)

DarkRecluse (231992) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208431)

But hey, we're just technologists talking about the best solutions for customer issues...we just happen to agree on everything and lead eachother from one issue to the next.

Discussion = earnest conversation.
Propaganda = The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause.
( ref. www.dictionary.com )

Give me the notes! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11208442)

Someone want to post the cliffnotes to that damn thing? I've got ADD you know.

Unbiased? (1)

Jungleland (65157) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208450)

I bet this will be as unbiased as the IE6 v Firefox comparison a few weeks back:-)
And the results are posted in nice open formats like wma and doc ;-)

Misunderstanding (5, Funny)

Decaff (42676) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208451)

It's obvious that Microsoft still does not 'get' key aspects of open source:

"I always ask the question of customers and yes, there's always a free version, there's Debian, there's Gentoo, there's different distributions that they can pull down and use in a different environment, but when you really want to deploy it in a mission-critical way, when you really want to have something that's broader from an infrastructure perspective, they want something that has support"

The freeness of the version has nothing whatever to do with the support. I use a server that is Debian but has commercial support.

I also found the following comment very amusing:

"in Windows Server particularly, some of the things that struck me as innovative were some of the server management tools. The ability to take a Windows server and literally dynamically change it from a DHCP infrastructure server to a streaming media server, or more importantly, taking a file/print server and adding a variety of other services, maybe make it a domain controller, maybe also make it a Web server."

Wow! How 'innovative'! Maybe he should look at a tool like 'dselect' under Debian. I can also 'literally dynamically' add and remove services from my server. Anyway, the idea of having a single machine that is nothing more than a DHCP infrastructure server suggests Windows is not the most powerful system.

Re:Misunderstanding (3, Funny)

Rakishi (759894) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208525)

Maybe it's "innovative" to them since their previous versions needed a reboot.

I guess Microsoft doesn't accept something as existing unless they do it themselves so everything they do is "innovative" to them.

Re:Misunderstanding (4, Interesting)

Decaff (42676) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208588)

I guess Microsoft doesn't accept something as existing unless they do it themselves so everything they do is "innovative" to them.

Yeah. Reminds me of a description on their website of Object-Oriented features in VB.Net as 'innovative'. Considering those features were in Simula 40 years earlier, I found this amusing.

Re:Misunderstanding (1)

Taladar (717494) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208551)

Not to mention that it is pretty hard to do so with Windows on a hundred (or thousand) machines at a time without expensive additional software.

What did you expect? (3, Interesting)

tomstdenis (446163) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208455)

Honestly. That they would conclude "OSS sure smells sweeter than pushing this ungodly overstuffed OS on people"???

Get Gates and Torvolds at the same table. Then I would be listening. Short of that it's just one-sided banter [same goes if it was say Linus and another developer at a table]

Tom

Re:What did you expect? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11208552)

Actually I'd prefer Bill Gates and RMS doing some mud-wrestling to decide once and for all which one is the best.

Re:What did you expect? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11208618)

Indeed. Linus Torvalds didn't write the Linux kernel to compete with Microsoft. He seems rather non-confrontational.

RMS is a different story. I'd love to see him and Gates in the ring.

Please... (2, Funny)

b166er_zeroone (814319) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208463)

This is like listening to two Microsoft employees bashing Linux... Oh wait...

Nazi Vs USA (1)

Shadow_139 (707786) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208499)

All I have to say is
http://www.furnitureforthepeople.com/actpat.htm/ [furnituref...people.com]
-----
"Martin Taylor: Yeah, and I'm hearing more and more customers say that that's one of the biggest reasons why they've continued to use Microsoft and continued to use Windows Server, contrary to what you might read in the media, Windows Server is continuing to grow, and is a very healthy rich platform, both for IT professionals as well as ISVs, to build solutions on top of, and we also offer an incredible level of rich scenario enablement, scenarios around secure identity management, secure mobile access, communication collaboration, application platform, just a variety of different scenarios."

How are they going to compare the two if MioSüKz does not run any other software, only there own...?!?!?! http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/12/14/189 214&tid=109&tid=218/ [slashdot.org]

----------
"Clutch my testes, bloody squirrel humpers!!" -Happy Noodle Boy

Fud, fud, glorious fud (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11208513)

I find the whole MS response to Linux really rather funny. It seems to me that they had an opportunity to start making inroads into the Data centre around 1998-2002 when lots of companies were looking for cheaper alternatives to AIX, Solaris et al. They were lacking an enterprise development platform and a secure, scalable version of Windows. But they could have concentrated on improving the security and scalability of Windows and used Java/J2EE to give them the leg-up they needed on the development side. Instead they decided to attack Java and launch their own imitative, which hasn't been a particularly great success, and have missed the opportunity to get into the Data centre shipping the closest thing they've so far produced to a worthy OS in 2003.

In the mean time Linux has set itself up as the low cost data centre OS of choice (thanks in part to backing from IBM).

In this context Microsoft is now trying to tell everyone that Windows is cheaper than Linux. Not better, really, not more secure, but cheaper. There are lots of weak points to attack on Linux (it's a pain in the neck when trying to get it to work with very new hardware, for instance), but its primary strength is that it is very, very cheap. As in free.

Don't complain, write a lucid response. (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11208514)

The linux community needs to write a lucid response. Calling them names does not win the marketing battle.

Re:Don't complain, write a lucid response. (1)

skillrod (555920) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208711)


Recently I needed to burn an .ISO image file to CD-Rom. Seemed like an easy task for a simple/modern Operating System like Windows XP.

Hmm, my Windows XP (professional) can't burn an .ISO file to CD!?!?

I can do this from my iMac, but that only has one mouse button which is another story all together.

Why did I need to burn an .ISO file? For my new AMD 64 bit mobo. Can my windows XP run Blender under 64 bit? Last I saw Windows XP 64 was still in beta.

Not sure if this is lucid but Linux, for me, is just does way more, better, faster, cheaper.

Perhaps I'm missing something but... (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11208515)

From the article "...Microsoft Windows, over a five-year period, offered anywhere from 11 to 22% greater TCO.."

TCO stands for Total Cost of Ownership, right? Surely an 11 to 22% greater TCO would be a disadvantage, right? :P

And tomorrow.. (1)

Turn-X Alphonse (789240) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208540)

Microsoft claims TTs are not good for watching, and everyone should use Windows media player instead.

www.getthefacts ? (1)

psychoandy (797773) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208562)

The link in the article points to http://www.getthefacts/

Article breakdown (2, Funny)

scorp1us (235526) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208575)

#include //indemnification, etc

#include

#include

#include

#include

#include

#include // Note: I did agree with them in that nearly all migrations will require not just an admin, but probably several developers. They did correctly state that this is not what people want to do (pay developers and have to maintain something). I think this is a valid migration cost, and a good point. However, once enough migrations are done, and the developed migration tools realeased, the impact should be nil.

#include // An obvious lie, because it happens everyday in Linux. Fact: MS can never have the QA testing that linux has, bu virtue of their development models. It was stupid for MS to pick a fight here.

If this discussion was so open, why not invite some outside people in?

Re:Article breakdown (fixed) (1)

scorp1us (235526) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208611)

#include <rhetoric about what customers don't know wha tthey get with microsoft> //indemnification, etc

#include <rhetoric about what you don't get with linux>

#include <disproven and slanted statistics>

#include <(and here's where it gets good) a personal case about a time when one of t he men tried to contribute to an open source app. He got complaints that it broke a particular platform. He was not happy that he was asked to fix what he broke>

#include <blurb about some MS Exchange wizard where he askes how could this ever be done in sendmail and his staff laughs. [Note: they were lauging AT you, not with you]>

#include <plug more MS products>

#include <more rhetoric about mystical TCO. Notibly, include the migration costs in the Linux side, and little or no migration costs for windows side. Quickly Declare windows is cheaper in the first few years, before migration costs are recouped> // Note: I did agree with them in that nearly all migrations will require not just an admin, but probably several developers. They did correctly state that this is not what people want to do (pay developers and have to maintain something). I think this is a valid migration cost, and a good point. However, once enough migrations are done, and the developed migration tools realeased, the impact should be nil.

#include <testing 4 year old USB drivers is impossible> // An obvious lie, because it happens everyday in Linux. Fact: MS can never have the QA testing that linux has, bu virtue of their development models. It was stupid for MS to pick a fight here.

If this discussion was so open, why not invite some outside people in?

well, it's obvious.... (0, Troll)

fuck_this_shit (727749) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208580)

isn't it? LINUX SUCKS! IT DOESN'T HAVE IE! and no Active X either. Bunch of Loonix losers.

Obviously... (1)

b166er_zeroone (814319) | more than 9 years ago | (#11208687)

"Obviously, Microsoft is incredibly focused on security."
So "incredibly" doesn't mean that much in Microsoft vocabulary!
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