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359 comments

Interesting (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262107)

Very interesting

Re:Interesting (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262113)

boring parent post

Re:Interesting (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262117)

boring parent post
*wink*

Re:Interesting (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262123)

boring child post

Best logo (5, Interesting)

Uukrul (835197) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262116)

NI think that the project is good enough to try to get a new design (and a new logo).
This project with a more professional look can be a great success.
Any thesigners out there?

Re:Best logo (5, Funny)

keesh (202812) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262127)

If you're going to abuse them for lack of professionalism, why not just point out that they use <blink> elements?

Re:Best logo (2, Funny)

Diabolical (2110) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262356)

Hey.. that's to attract all those Windows/IE users...

Re:Best logo (4, Informative)

Zone-MR (631588) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262376)

Yeah, but <blink> elements aren't supported on IE :)

Re:Best logo (0, Troll)

Diabolical (2110) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262391)

Mod this down!!! This idiot doesn't know what he is talking about!!

So now it's ok to like VB? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262118)

Ok, so when you have all the features you laughed and belittled in Visual Basic on linux, there ok all of a sudden?

Re:So now it's ok to like VB? (5, Interesting)

RenatoRam (446720) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262144)

I guess VB is belittled not because of features, but because of the horrid quality of common vb apps.

And for the poor quality of the language.

And 'cause it tends to change and be incompatible from version to version ...and so on...

Will gambas apps be better than vb apps? If they are written by the same monkeys I don't think so.

The release of gambas IS great news, however, simply 'cause now we can reply to the endless "there is no simple RAD solution under linux" rants with "then use gambas, you fool!"

Code monkey (2, Funny)

Uukrul (835197) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262202)

Code monkeys do the best that they could as you can see graphically [frmb.org] .

Tcl Tk (1)

DavidNWelton (142216) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262207)

We already have a nice, cross platform language and graphical toolkit - Tcl combined with Tk. Or Python, if you like that.

Re:Tcl Tk (1)

RenatoRam (446720) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262214)

I know perfectly well.

I use python to develop even on windows.

But people are normally whining for an integrated suite with drag and drop UI building... ...don't know, i program in vim only (even on win, obviously)

Re:So now it's ok to like VB? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262265)

I want to clear up any misunderstanding immediately. Gambas does not try to be compatible with Visual Basic, and will never be. I'm convinced that its syntax and internals are far better than the one's of its proprietary cousin ;-) ... I dislike the very bad level of common Visual Basic programmers, often due to bad pratices imposed by the bugs and strangeness of this language. So I will try to make Gambas as coherent, logical and reliable as possible, and I hope that Gambas programmers will make effort in return ! ;-)

Does one really need to say more?

Offcourse (1)

Uukrul (835197) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262153)

This is slashdot [wikipedia.org] .

Re:So now it's ok to like VB? (1)

noselasd (594905) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262171)

Well, with VB you can atleast release your program under whatever license you want without paying fees to a Norwegian company :-)

Re:So now it's ok to like VB? (2, Interesting)

Lussarn (105276) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262190)

with VB You have to pay to an american company to release under ANY licence.

Re:So now it's ok to like VB? (4, Interesting)

danheskett (178529) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262389)

That's not true. You have to license the software if you wan't the IDE. You can develop very happily from the command line and compile and distribute or sell till your heart is complete via the .NET SDK. You get free compilers and headers and access to 100% of the features of the .NET runtime.

Plus there are *never* any runtime or distribution royalities.

Ohh, one more thing. If you are a VB programmer or a C# programmer, you should investigate Mono with GTK#.

Re:So now it's ok to like VB? (2, Insightful)

onion2k (203094) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262189)

VB was only ever meant to be a rapid prototyping tool. You knock up a quick'n'dirty VB version as a proof of concept, then you write the proper version in a more robust language. Unfortunately the management/lazy coders almost always step in with "but we have a working version there.. lets release that".

If people used VB in the way it was meant to be used noone would have any complaints about it. (well, fewer complaints at least..)

Re:So now it's ok to like VB? (4, Interesting)

Spacejock (727523) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262282)

I can never understand this attitude towards VB.

The reliability of apps written in VB has nothing to do with the language, and everything to do with the programmer. If you slap some code together, run it to make sure there are no syntax errors and then release it as version 1.0 how is that a fault with Visual Basic?

Without wanting to blow my own trumpet, I get many emails thanking me for my useful, stable programs, every one of which is written in VB. They're not simple apps, either - my major project is over 6 megs of source code.

VB allows me to code efficiently, quickly and with a minimum of errors, and until I come across something which allows me to code even quicker, even more efficiently and with even less errors I'm sticking with it.

I'm not claiming to be some guru level programmer, I'm just pointing out that it's a bit hard blaming VB for bad software just because beginners can dash in and code the World's Best Program in their lunch break.

Anyway, look on the positive side: If all those beginners started out with C# you'd have thousands of crappy, bug-ridden programs written in that language, and the 'VB generates crap' argument would go up in smoke.

Re:So now it's ok to like VB? (2, Insightful)

onion2k (203094) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262309)

You missed the point in my post. Coders write quick'n'dirty VB apps with the intention of redoing them in (for example) C++ later. The management then come in and want to release the quick'n'dirty version. I'm not suggesting you can't write robust VB code, I'm saying lots of people don't.

Besides which, Microsoft realised people use VB as a proper language instead of a RAD tool now, and they smartened it up a lot a few versions ago. Go back to the mid 90s and VB was NOT a stable dev platform.

Re:So now it's ok to like VB? (1)

wertarbyte (811674) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262313)

The reliability of apps written in VB has nothing to do with the language, and everything to do with the programmer. If you slap some code together, run it to make sure there are no syntax errors and then release it as version 1.0 how is that a fault with Visual Basic?

There is one simple solution to all problems of your VB app: On error resume next; YEEHA!

Re:So now it's ok to like VB? (1)

Orgg (3764) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262338)


There is one simple solution to all problems of your VB app: On error resume next; YEEHA!

Try structured exception handling (at least in VB.Net)

Re:So now it's ok to like VB? (1)

pdc (19855) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262362)

Except that VB.NET isn't really the same language as VB; it's more like C# with the keywords changed to resemble VB6.

Some of the VB Developer Studio features that make VB 'user-friendly' are not present in Visual Studio.NET or in the VB.NET language. (On Error being just one of them.)

VB.NET is not all that bad a programming language, especially if your keyboard lacks Shift, '{' and '}' keys. But I don't think we can use VB.NET features to justify the VB6 language... :-)

Re:So now it's ok to like VB? (1)

alba7 (100502) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262205)

All-encompassing integrated development environments are an invention of the 1970ies, nothing new. Smalltalk and Emacs come to mind. So you got to distinguish a few aspects.

  • IDE vs. plain shell, also known as Emacs vs. vi.
  • Bunch of separate source files vs. single opaque repository
  • Implementing the language-specific IDE in the language itself (elegant, proof of concept) vs. providing the fastest implementation (easily detoriates into a hack)

In some kind this is all a matter of taste. But then Smalltalk, Emacs, Oberon and Eclipse are written in their respective languages. Visual Basic is too weak a language to accomplish the same feat. And instead of fixing the language Microsoft used the IDE to compensate, adding hack after hack.

Re:So now it's ok to like VB? (1)

PerlDudeXL (456021) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262305)

I messed around with Gambas and I have some VB experience, but I never enjoyed programming with
VB. Gambas may have some nice concepts and I could write simple apps with it, but its BASIC syntax scares me.

I wrote my first programs with BASIC, but with growing age and more exprience with other
languages I couldn't see any advantage in using BASIC-like languages. I think that I prefer languages with a C-like syntax.

VB with source (2, Interesting)

oliverthered (187439) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262311)

Well I have two problems with VB.

1: It's slow and easy to write bad code in so it shouldn't be used for anything other than a UI in a multi-tear system and shouldn't be used for large(anything more than a few hundred function points) systems.

Gambas is still slow, so no wins there.

2: VB was incredibly buggy, even for the things it was good for (rapid prototyping, simple to maintain UI's) it would sometimes crash for no apparent reason bot adding an extra hidden text box or a random print seemed to fix things.

With Gambas you have the source so all bugs are shallow.

Having said that there are plenty of good free Java tools out there like JBuilder foundataion or eclipse, so maybe basic has had it's day.

Re:So now it's ok to like VB? (3, Insightful)

juhaz (110830) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262314)

No, it's not ok.

I wonder how tightly this is tied to the Basic implementation, and if it would be possible to switch the underlying language to something decent - say, python - without basically rewriting the whole mess?

Re:So now it's ok to like VB? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262368)

That was my first thought as well. I actually quite like the look of the IDE, but Basic? I've found something to like in almost every language I've tried, with the single exception of Visual Basic. More power to anyone who does like it, but I still find it amazing that anyone not forced into it would actually choose something VB-like when something, anything, is available.

Re:So now it's ok to like VB? (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262365)

Alright, slow down, here comes some hard to grok stuff:

Everything cool? Ok, let's go on...

Do you think that it's possible that the Linux community consists of DIFFERENT personalities with DIFFERENT opinions? Just maybe? And that the people who hate VB still hate VB and others who didn't think VB sucks to start with started this project?

I know, I know, this was too hard for you, but maybe try to sleep a few nights over it, maybe one day you will be able to understand such difficult concepts...

Hmmmmmm (1)

KLP-2002 (548875) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262119)

Totally crush VB? Hmmmmm...

Killer Application (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262121)

Rant and hiss all you want. This application has the potential to move an entire generation of mid-40ish "Windows and VB4 still works for me" people - who are basically stating the truth - to Linux / OSS enviroments.

And no Blahblah about Eclipse Basic being somewhere close to RAD or QTDevelop being a sort-of half way kinda RAD tool and "whats all the excitement about, I only need Perl and a few bazillion extra libs and dependency resoltions to write nice TK-Apps that are ugly as hell" will change that.

As for me, I'm sold. Congratulations to the Gambas team.

Re:Killer Application (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262161)

Wow you cut and pasted post 10636412 from the linked /. article, congratulations.

Tk getting a makeover (4, Interesting)

DavidNWelton (142216) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262244)

It's called "tile" and the goal is to make Tk look native on all platforms, in a 21st century sort of way.

http://tktable.sourceforge.net/tile/ [sourceforge.net]

Combine that with starkits [equi4.com] , and you have 0 dependencies. Just distribute one file.

Re:Killer Application (1)

DrXym (126579) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262259)

Well it does and it doesn't. Certainly it has the potential to move simple VB apps over, but apps that use OCX / ActiveX controls? Forget it.

And that's part of the problem. VB was until VB6 such a hopelessly shitty language that it was impossible to extend it in interesting ways. Either you resigned yourself to using the meagre toolkit that it came with or you supplemented it with 3rd party controls (written in C++) that you bought elsewhere. Consequently only toy VB apps stand a chance of porting easily, unless of course GAMBAS could somehow invoke WINE to host native controls.

By VB6 you could finally produce your own ActiveX controls and apps in VB that you could embed in other apps but even so most controls were still produced native binaries in C++.

In fact I reckon that only VB.NET stands the chance of smooth porting to Linux (via an IDE and Mono), but even that would not be plain sailing since the shortcomings in Windows.Forms mean many .NET apps are already infested with PInvoke calls and hooks to other proprietary libraries.

Looks Good (3, Interesting)

ibentmywookie (819547) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262122)

I haven't used it for a while, but back then it didn't have an MDI interface, which I didn't like.

I prefer all the windows to be under the control of a single parent window. I guess it's the same reason why the GIMP interface is kind of annoying.

However, on Linux, if you give the app it's own desktop to sit on, it's manageable.

Re:Looks Good (1)

91degrees (207121) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262284)

It's been a whilke since I've seen any IDE with an interface I like. I marginally prefer this splattered all over the screen format over the Visual studio interface. Simply close windows when you're not using them and usually you'll only have a project and editor window.

I simply find the MDI a little cluttered. What I really want is two windows - one for the editor, and one for all the other stuff. Multiple windows with their own icon bars that components can be shuffled between would be nice.

Re:Looks Good (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262335)

It's pretty simple.

Single parent MDI windows in Linux suck ass.

Why?

Because there is no reason for it. In windows it's nessicary because you have to dumpall your windows into the same space. With Linux you have multiple virtual desktops.

Say you have Gimp. You setup 2 virtual desktop windows, one for artwork and toolbar, the other to contain all of the dialogs. (like for brushes, layers, selections, patterns, etc etc)

That way you quickly switch back and forth (I use a simple keycombo).

This arrangement is much more superior then what is possible if Gimp used a single window-parent style like Photoshop does, and it is the reason people design applications like they do.

In Windows you need this because all the windows occupy one space. If you have more then one app open all the different windows get mixed up together and it's a huge pain in the ass to keep them all sorted.

People who heavily multitask have to do things like move the task bar to the side of the screen and make it so that they can read the names of the windows. Total usability crappiness.

Photoshop does what it does because it was originally a Mac OS application and the MDI window emulates the actions of the Mac OS desktop.

in Mac OS each application has it's own virtual desktop. When you click on a Window it brings the ENTIRE application to the front, instead of just the particular window you clicked on.

That's one of the major reasons why Gimp has such a bad rap. Because it's designed to be used in a enviroment that has superior window handling capabilities instead of the still-stuck-in-the-early-1990's style that Windows uses.

Beleive me. Single window-parent MDI interfaces SUCK. Especially when you have multiple monitors. They just introduce severe limitations on the user.

much better to have a bunch of secondary windows on one or two desktops on either side of your main workspace and you switch to them when you need them, then keep the main area were you work constantly in the front and pretty much full screen.

That way you don't have to dick around with searching thru a bunch of menus and crap to find what you want. Go left of current screen you have everything you are looking for right in front of you and were you left it.

Go left, go right, go up, go down. Each direction can have not only the windows associated with the MDI app your working with, but other related applications or things you need to keep a eye on, such as irc-clients or Mozilla open on slashot.

Also reduces the need for massive expensive monitors, too.

Once you get used to it it is very intuitive.

Of course if your coming from a Windows background with only a single workspace to operate in I can see how it's a bit confusing at first.

project's aims (from site) (5, Informative)

mincognito (839071) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262126)

This project aims at making a graphical development environment based on a Basic interpreter, so that we have a language like Visual Basic(TM) under Linux(TM). The phenomenal quantity of bugs and inconsistencies that makes Visual Basic so delightful persuaded me to start this project ;-) It seems that Microsoft is aware of the poor quality of its language, as VB .Net is not backward compatible with older versions of Visual Basic. I think they have thrown away the Visual Basic interpreter source code, and that VB .Net is just a .Net runtime compiler whose syntax looks like the Visual Basic one. Well, it's just my own opinion... ;-) I want to clear up any misunderstanding immediately. Gambas does not try to be compatible with Visual Basic, and will never be. I'm convinced that its syntax and internals are far better than the one's of its proprietary cousin ;-) I took from Visual Basic what I found useful : the Basic language, the development environment, and the easiness to quickly make programs with user interfaces. But I dislike the very bad level of common Visual Basic programmers, often due to bad pratices imposed by the bugs and strangeness of this language. So I will try to make Gambas as coherent, logical and reliable as possible, and I hope that Gambas programmers will make effort in return ! ;-) At the moment, I'm looking for programming help. The kernel of Gambas is now stabilized, if not well documented. There is a component example to help people learning how to write components. I hope other people will join me to help to increase the possibilities of the language. There is so much to do !

Re:project's aims (from site) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262145)

Have you used enough winkies there?

5 years too late (1)

elfin_spectre (838439) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262152)

I've been a VB programmer since version 1 and have had to move to web-based programming to get work over the past 5 years because hardly anyone was writing new desktop applications.

Re:project's aims (from site) (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262162)

But.. why not improve eclipse and python (or some other)?

I have installed eclipse(1) and the plugling for python(2) and i it works really good. Why not improve funtionalities of projects that are working instead of begin another one?
Is a real question, I want not to bother you.

(1)-> http://www.eclipse.org/
(2)-> http://pydev.sourceforge.net/

Re:project's aims (from site) (1)

bramez (190835) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262240)

I notice you wink a lot. Is there something in your eye?

Re:project's aims (from site) (1)

JamieF (16832) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262281)

>(TM)

Show-off.

REALbasic (1)

dadjaka (827325) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262131)

REALbasic [realbasic.com] almost beat you to it, with an IDE for Mac and Windows, and building for Mac, Windows and Linux.

Pity it's not free.

Re:REALbasic (1)

Spacejock (727523) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262216)

I've evaluated it twice, and it's not close enough to VB for me to use. Just stupid things like having to press TAB to autocomplete instead of space (which is right under your thumb)

I took a real good look at it, I love the idea of cross-compiling but the environment is too alien. (I write and release most of my apps freeware: www.spacejock.com [spacejock.com] so I'm not going to spend big bucks on an IDE I won't use.)

Anyway, Gambas is no use to me unless it will either:
A) run natively on Windows too or
B) compile VB6 projects unedited on Linux.

A is more likely, in my opinion.

Re:REALbasic (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262366)

If you're looking for a free, cross-platform Basic, have a look at wxBasic [sourceforge.net] . It's based on wxWidgets [wxwidgets.org] , an excellent cross-platform C++ library (yes, the widgets are native on Mac, Windows and Linux).

It's still beta, the IDE is only now being developed, and the Mac port doesn't exist yet (any volunteers?), but it fits the "free" criteria...

Netcraft confirms... (0, Offtopic)

KLP-2002 (548875) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262136)

It is now official - Netcraft has confirmed: GNU/Hurd is dying

Yet another crippling bombshell hit the beleaguered GNU/Hurd community when
recently IDC confirmed that GNU/Hurd accounts for less than a fraction of 1
percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of the latest Netcraft
survey which plainly states that GNU/Hurd has lost more market share, this
news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. GNU/Hurd is collapsing
in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last in
the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.

You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict GNU/Hurd's
future. The hand writing is on the wall: GNU/Hurd faces a bleak future. In
fact there won't be any future at all for GNU/Hurd because GNU/Hurd is dying.
Things are looking very bad for GNU/Hurd. As many of us are already aware,
GNU/Hurd continues to lose market share. Brown ink flows like a river of
shit.

Let's keep to the facts and look at the rumors.

Cum laude Theo states that there are 7000 users of GNU/Hurd. How
many users of Caldera are there? Let's see. The number of SuSe versus
Caldera posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there
are about 7000/5 = 1400 Caldera users. Connectiva posts on Usenet are about
half of the volume of Caldera posts. Therefore there are about 700 users
of nig cum. A recent article put TurboLinux at about 80 percent of the GNU/Hurd
market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 TurboLinux users.
This is consistent with the number of TurboLinux Usenet posts.

Due to the troubles of SCO, abysmal sales and so on, TurboLinux
went out of business and was taken over by SCO who sell another
troubled OS. Now SCO is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet
another charnel house.

All major surveys show that GNU/Hurd has steadily declined in market share.
GNU/Hurd is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If
GNU/Hurd is to survive at all it will be among OS hobbyist dabblers. GNU/Hurd
continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this
point in time. For all practical purposes, GNU/Hurd is dead.

Fact: GNU/Hurd is dead

Re:Netcraft confirms... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262170)

Ha Ha, very funny (not).

Why dont you crackerz and trollerz go get a 'real life' - you scum!

-disappointed.

Re:Netcraft confirms... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262179)

Bloddy GNAA strikes again... you guys are so.... ummmm.....well.....you're just a pack-a-khunts.

Cluttered IDE (5, Interesting)

Osty (16825) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262137)

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I don't like the "spread-out" IDE layout they've got going on here [sourceforge.net] . It reminds me too much of the GIMP, and not in a good way. Perhaps it's my Windows background, but I want a single window with toolboxes and sidebars inside that window (see Visual Studio or KDevelop [kdevelop.org] ). This "Let's have a bunch of floating windows with nothing tying them together" approach just makes me think the developers are trying to copy Mac apps rather than Windows apps, with the main drawback of not having a single app menu across the top of the screen to tie everything together (yes, I know that various desktop environments can optionally move app menus to the top of the screen, but how consistent are they? Will they keep the menu from the "Project" window up top when I have the "Toolbox" window focused? Do they know that the "Properties" window and code window are related, and should raise together?). I'm not saying that copying from either is bad or wrong, just that if you're going to do it, do it right.

Re:Cluttered IDE (3, Insightful)

Lussarn (105276) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262209)

I don't think they are copying either windows or mac, they are merely following what have been the unix way for the last 10 years. On unix we have virtual desktops and they are there to be used.

BS (3, Insightful)

brunes69 (86786) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262373)

Loads of top-level tool windows is a usability nightmare. It os not intuitive at all, and a new user has a hell of a time figuring out what things are in what window.

There is a reason both the Gnome and KDE projects have HCI guidelines. And this app doesn't follow either of them.

Re:Cluttered IDE (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262254)

I have to agree with you. Why not have it programmed so you can set it as an option: Willy Nilly windows everywhere for people who want that, a parent window for the rest :).

Re:Cluttered IDE (1)

JamieF (16832) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262277)

Argh. It's the old "why make decisions when you can just add yet another preference pane" cop-out. See also: Mozilla.

Re:Cluttered IDE (1)

Khazunga (176423) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262271)

"Let's have a bunch of floating windows with nothing tying them together"
Wrong! The Virtual Desktop is there to tie them together.

So, yes you're right. It's your windows background...

Re:Cluttered IDE (1)

oliverthered (187439) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262299)

Well I hate MDI It reminds me of trying to move large bits of furniture in and out of the house and grazing my knuckles on the wall.

Personally I like Borlands 'menu bar at the top, everything else floating and dockable'.

They should give you a choice though.

Re:Cluttered IDE (1)

linebackn (131821) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262331)

Well, I like MDI :)

True some programs use it inappropriately, but in cases where you have many windows that are part of the same application it can be very useful. A good example of a good use is a paint program where you may be working with dozens of pieces of images, the MDI form works kind of like a clip tray and makes it easy to manage all of the images at the same time.

Ideally in most apps, yes it should be an option. (In VB 6 it is)

Re:Cluttered IDE (1)

oliverthered (187439) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262370)

As a 'bad' example.
KDevelop in Ideal mode, try putting two windows side by side. Say I'm doing a translation from french to English, or trying to code to a spec.

Re:Cluttered IDE (3, Insightful)

Tarwn (458323) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262319)

I agree with your sentiments, despite what other may say. That is/was the biggest turn off for Gimp for me. I actually find it to be an obstacle in using the program because there is nothing tying them together (maybe it's a coneptual gap, I don't like having to think about it every time). I don't necessarally need my applications to all have slide-out tool panes like Visual Studio, but a background container with the option to dock windows on the sides or toolbar does wonders for keeping all the various bits of the application together, allowing me to focus on doing what I am doing without accidentally switching focus to a browser or terminal I left open.
Sure once I get everything shuffled to another window I don't worry as much, and some people might be comfortable "outside the box" with their applications, but I would prefer to stay inside the box, thank you. I don't think this is a revolutionary interface design concept, I think it is an interesting one that doesn't quite work as well as was expected.

If I am going to work on an application then my preference would be to siomply work on it, without pausing every 5 seconds to think about where to find a toolbox i sent to the background. Now in window 3 of 4 and crap, did I lose 4 somewhere?
That's one of the elements I liked about Paintshop Pro: the floating, dockable, collapsible menus. Everything was kept in the one application area and you could pretty much put the boxes anywhere you wanted, but being inside that window made the toolboxes naturally belong to the application. Plus I could get more screen acreage simply by allowing them to collapse, without losing them into the background.

Re:Cluttered IDE (1)

Kjella (173770) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262332)

Perhaps it's my Windows background, but I want a single window with toolboxes and sidebars inside that window (see Visual Studio or KDevelop).

Agreed. But some of these let you undock windows so you can essentially make it look like a bunch of windows anyway. Personally, I want a single full-screen background saying "now I'm in the IDE", since I usually have a dozen other programs running. And that makes it natural to place stuff on the "edges", be they separate windows or not.

Kjella

if you want VB on Linux why not just use REALBasic (2, Interesting)

GK_2002 (557045) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262142)

Consider that already REALBasic 5.5 is loads ahead of this project in that much of the syntax is VB like, yet you can release one app simulataneously on Mac OS 9, OS X, Windows and Linux.

I don't see the advantage here... sure it's not free software but it works DAMN well. I have created a few small utilites internally for my company as well as a little CD Cataloging program just to teach myself the ins and outs of the language, but for those times I want to make something run as a non-web based application for a Mac, this is how I plan to develop the software.

Re:if you want VB on Linux why not just use REALBa (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262180)

Have you ever actually tried to use RealBasic to develop linux applications?

Re:if you want VB on Linux why not just use REALBa (1)

kormoc (122955) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262273)

Why have linux? Minux was good enough for me, it's not free software but it works damn well...

The point is, another player on the field, which means others have more compitation, and maybe one day Gambas will be even better then Realbasic is.

Also, the dude likes writing compilers and stuff, which is why he did the project, it's his hobby that others might want to use, it's cool.

So don't use it if you don't want to, but don't say it shouldn't be...

Re:if you want VB on Linux why not just use REALBa (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262296)

I don't see the advantage here... sure it's not free software

I guess a beliver in free software would se an advantage.

Re:if you want VB on Linux why not just use REALBa (2, Informative)

anagama (611277) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262345)


  • Consider that already REALBasic 5.5 is loads ahead of this project in that much of the syntax is VB like, yet you can release one app simulataneously on Mac OS 9, OS X, Windows and Linux. ... sure it's not free software but it works DAMN well.

You're right it ain't free - It's $600 for the version that will work for all three OSes, or a grand if you want a 12 month subscription. Kind of steep for those of us who just fool around with computers for fun rather than work.

OO language (1, Interesting)

Underholdning (758194) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262155)

I finished university just before everything had to be object oriented, so I have my base in procedural languages. Granted, I can see a lot of advantages in OO, but why does everything has to be OO these days? Both Gambas and Visual Basic are now OO languages. If I wanted OO I'd chose Java or C++. But what if I don't want OO?

Re:OO language (2, Interesting)

Vo0k (760020) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262210)

'cause OO is way easier for team writing and huge projects. It's way easier to split the project into many "single man" or "single small team" tasks, then bind them all together through an easy to use and strictly defined methods with well defined "responsiblity" areas. The difference isn't all that big, except of some "protectionism" (private, public), simplification of some processes (inheritance instead of notorious evil "copy&paste") and strict defining of "responsiblity areas" (objects), instead of guessing whether convert_hostname_to_lowercase() belongs to hostnameconv.h or tolowercase.h :)

Re:OO language (1)

Jonti (795505) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262276)

If you don't want OO, there's nothing to stop you from using an OO language like Python in the traditional procedural way.

Actually, I'd argue that's the "right" way to code some problems. I'm thinking particularly of the read-a-record; process it; write a record kind of processing that lies at the heart of much business computing. But that model of processing sucks badly when you try to write interactive applications. It's *much* easier to model or describe an interactive system in OO.

It's not so much that *everything* has to be OO. It's more that Python and the ilk have the advantages of OO available if needed.

Re:OO language (0, Troll)

lisaparratt (752068) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262323)

You could always get your trusty hole punch out and continue handcrafting those cards?

I don't believe... (5, Insightful)

Vo0k (760020) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262168)

I don't believe any open source solution in any near future could crush the Microsoft alternatives in the software development field.
The problem is that HERE marketing matters. Home users are free to pick a web browser or operating system of their choice. But when a big system for some business/industry is being developed, the platform decisione are made by the middle-to-upper management. And these guys really -believe- what Microsoft marketing people tell them. So the programmers, people who actually know a thing about the options don't really get the voice in most of the projects. "So... This guy at EXPO told me Visual Basic would solve all these problems. So we write the application in Visual Basic." There is no way the majority of the "big fishes" in programming could accept a hardly known free software language instead of the "famous, widely used Microsoft product" without the right marketing, and without some large funding behind the marketing...

Unless Sun, IBM or someone else with enough $$$ and not too much love for Microsoft backs up the project and takes care of marketing and promoting it. But the chances are very slim.

Re:I don't believe... (1)

Lussarn (105276) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262239)

A search for asp on google reveals 557 000 000 hits
A search for jsp on google reveals 115 000 000 hits
A search for php on google reveals 864 000 000 hits

Yet the big players promote jsp and asp. Google is in no way scientific but php is very big without industry support from the big players.

Re:I don't believe... (1)

Vo0k (760020) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262358)

ASP 1.0 - end of 1996.
JSP - Sun's response to ASP.
PHP/FI 1995, PHP3 - 1997.

And of course dubious fame of ISS which was the only supported platform for ASP until recently and similarity of PHP to Perl which was the language of CGI for ages.

Re:I don't believe... (1)

aled (228417) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262375)

quantity != quality

t/ubgiryl (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262169)

ToO, can be a of o4en-source. Writing is on the a change to

Worse than INTERCAL (2, Interesting)

KiloByte (825081) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262175)

The last time I used BASIC was 20 years ago, when I was six -- and I'll be damned if I ever come back.
We got so many programming languages -- good ones and bad ones, that is simply doesn't make any sense altogether to use a Cobol-lookalike. Repent, folks!

It may start here... (2, Insightful)

wcitechnologies (836709) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262182)

I think VB is a doorway for programmers who eventually get serious. Anybody who knows anything knows that VB isn't the language to program enterprise-class software. Still, VB is a good way to get the kids interested, and some of them grow up to be engineers. If this language really is the Linux equivelant to VB, you OSS guys should be happy, considering how this, (or something like this) may affect Linux's future.

Re:It may start here... (1)

Netsensei (838071) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262292)

What about JAVA? At university, I learned OOP in java at university. For me, the step to C(++) from java wasn't that big. And my knowledge of PHP helped me a great deal to understand those basics in JAVA. Going from Java to VB: now there's a big leap! I bought me some VB.net books (discounts!). By golly! I'm glad I started of in java and PHP. Feels like I'm all starting over again in VB. Besides, even though JAVA isn't strictly GPL, at least it's platform independent. I don't have to port my crap Jabber IM cli client to work in either windhose or lunix.

Welcome (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262186)

I, for one, welcome our new Gambas overlords.

DOA (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262187)

One glance over the screenshot tells me i'm not going to use this. Windows cluttered all over the place. It's a pity. Please, OSS developers, even if you hate MS Windows, a few things in there are actually done quite good...

Re:DOA (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262249)

One glance at your post tells me you are trolling. So one look at a screenshot that is probably meant to showcase as much of the application as possible tells you that it is cluttered and unusable?

I'm impressed.

I'm also getting tired of this constant whining about not doing it the MS way. Interestingly I never see these kind of complaints about OSX software, though even MS products are not using an MDI interface on OSX. So not doing it the MS way certainly doesn't say anything about the usability of an app.

Re:DOA (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262262)

"Windows cluttered all over the place."

A better word may have been strewn (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=strewn):
1 : to spread by scattering
2 : to cover by or as if by scattering something

I agree with you, why not program an option in so we can have a parent window if we so wish. I have enough problems keeping track of my passwords without keeping track of program windows ;).

Single Document Interface? (1)

Zephiris (788562) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262196)

Having the windows 'spread out' like that reminds me of one thing in particular, the Delphi/C Builder IDEs. They too had a similar interface and were insufferable on Windows (probably just as bad with Kylix on Linux. While nice UNIX-based RAD tools are possibly a good thing, "bad" interface design (possibly the worst offense of which is not making SDI/MDI a configurable option) won't really help developers or for "open source" to gain better mainstream acceptance for users not interested in any amount of complexity.

Re:Single Document Interface? (1)

marcovje (205102) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262310)


I prefer it, at least the delphi way.

As in being able to quickly increase and decrease the editor area surface (by maximizing the editor window so no others are visible except window bar with menu) for e.g. some major edit

Funny wallpapers ... (3, Funny)

invi (198857) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262204)

Oh well ... but they *do* have funny [sourceforge.net] wallpapers [sourceforge.net] ... and notice the clever placement of the windows, guess MDI has its advantages after all :)

Crush VB for database apps? (2, Insightful)

Jugalator (259273) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262215)

Now, if it ran in Windows too, it would truly crush VB for database applications.

Hrm.. Like the Windows flag is burnt [sourceforge.net] ?
I wonder if it was really that necessary to be so childish, right on their front page.

It doesn't help their cause anyway, or defeat generalizations about "Linux being for childish basement geeks".

Oh well... To my question: Why would it crush VB .NET 2003 for database apps? Do you mean db apps in general? Or just a specific kind of db apps? What's so revolutionary about this package in that area? I couldn't find anything on their Gambas feature list even mentioning databases, except:

"Finish and clean the database component."

Oh, the irony!

Re:Crush VB for database apps? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262234)

i need to wank off now

Re:Crush VB for database apps? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262247)

Leave it to an apparent expert to get hung up on the wallpaper.

Re:Crush VB for database apps? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262364)

Offtopic here but VB.NET is totally different from VB. I think VB.NET was shoehorned in to .NET because it's so much more what VB should have been.

This is nice, but corporations employing developers want someone to blame if the environment fails. This will not give them that and it will therefore never gain any significant market share against Microsoft. On the other hand universities might take to this in their computer science departments, but I don't see it being anything more than an intellectual curiousity for students and faculty. Besides, the VB/VStudio IDE is the best I've seen. You'd have to go really far to beat it in its current iteration.

Should I plunge my cockerspaniel into her bum? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262227)

I am here to solicit your opinions. My sex trip to brazil will begin in a few weeks. I truely enjoy exploiting women living at the poverty level. Should I plow my manmeat into her sweet round ass?

http://hotside.com.br/shara.htm [hotside.com.br]

Linux' REAL reply to VB (1)

SlashdotMeNow (799901) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262232)

HAHA! (In a Nelson voice)

Wow (2, Informative)

md81544 (619625) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262269)

Purists may smirk at this, being VB-like and all, but I just compiled this from source and had a play... it's incredibly well done. I'm really impressed. I'd love to see something like this which builds proper executables and allows C or C++ for the language.

I haven't had a chance to investigate further (should be working, after all!) but does anybody know what you need to distribute to get an app working on another box? Does the RPM it creates install all the required libs etc or do they need Gambas installed too?

Is it just me... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262289)

or does Gambas sound a lot like Dumbass?

Bob: "So, Jim, what are you using for your new project?"
Jim: "Gambas."
Bob: "Oh you dumbass!"
Jim: "Excuse me?"
Bob: "I said Oh, that Gambas? How interesting..."

Flashing Text (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262290)

Jesus Christ that crap is annoying. Knock it off right now. Right now!

A better alternative (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262293)

For those who don't want to mess with ugly languages such as BASIC or horrendous GUI builders like Glade, there's a much better alternative: WideStudio [widestudio.org] .
It's complete, fast, small, supports multiple OSes, hardware platforms (Zaurus included) and languages (C, Ruby, Python, Perl and Java).

Can't even create the project... (2, Interesting)

WWWWolf (2428) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262324)

Okay, I installed 1.0 off Debian. I can't even create a new project, because the directory browser window in that step makes it very unclear what directory I'm trying to pick right now as the project directory. And, it won't even work otherwise: either it tells me to pick a valid directory (umm, I suppose I did?), won't let me pick a valid directory (I can choose it all right, but clicking on Next won't do anything!) or randomly picks "/" as the project directory, and it obviously fails because it can't create project there...

And on top of that, when I just started it up, tried to create a new directory in home directory, it actually created "New directory", then said it couldn't use that. Clicking on directories almost randomly didn't make things show up.

Then I had a bright idea: There were examples. I copied one off to a directory of my own. Tried opening it. It couldn't find the project from this directory at all.

At which project dpkg -r mysteriously nuked the whole thing and I just got back waiting for 1.0.2 or 1.1 or something.

I really hate to say this, but this experience sucked. This sort of lack of usability is completely inexcusable. The directory browing window was one of those horrible excuses of directory browsers stolen from Motif and nightmares.

I'm pretty certain the project looks good, and there's definitely a need for a good Basic-based RAD tool, but based on this horror story of mine, there's still some way to go before I can even try it.

This should have been python (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11262360)

When I switched to linux, I started writing in python because it works across platforms. Python was supposed to be simple, quick and effective. Every time I write something in python it seems like I find another 'issue' to deal with. Granted, I am doing stuff with python that I couldn't with vb but still it is a pain. If these guys produce something simple and robust and useful then more power to them.

Cluttered IDE (2, Insightful)

Quixadhal (45024) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262378)

I have to agree. I abhorr interfaces like the Gimp (which is a fine program, shackled with a not so fine UI), and find it far too easy to lose the various toolbars under other things. It might not be so bad if clicking on any one UI element would bring the entire thing to the top...

--off topic--

This just reminds me that Linux peope STILL can't develop their own breakthroughs. We STILL feel compelled to try and mimic whatever comes out of Redmond, or those fruity mac people (*grin*, my Mom has one so I feel justified in that jab).

What's the number one complaint people have with Microsoft's GUI? Inconsistancy. What's the one thing Linux (or any Open Source movement for that matter) will never really have? Consistancy. Yeah, call me a doomsayer, but as long as everyone clings to the adage of allowing everyone to code whatever they like, there will never BE a consistant standard interface on the Linux desktop.

Shoot, X is almost (more than?) 20 years old now and we still can't get a single consistant cut-and-paste buffer that works across every X application!

Sorry for the rant, but I'm just horrified that the desktop movement has made so little progress since I started using Linux back in 1994. Back then, an X11R5 desktop on a 486/66 with 16M of ram using TVTWM as a window manager would run circles around the equivalent win95 box. Now, every time I pull up X with KDE and type "free", I cringe seeing how much memory it sucks up. I use linux for my servers, and love it... but I use that other OS for my desktop as I don't have to fight with it every day.

http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org (1)

DigitalTechnic (822530) | more than 9 years ago | (#11262394)

Need I say more? Maybe Kylix( yes somewhat dead but the Open Edition is still free ) along with FreeCLX.
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