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Sun Unilaterally Revokes the FreeBSD Java License

CowboyNeal posted more than 9 years ago

Java 186

ravenII writes "The FreeBSD foundation has announced the news of Sun terminating the SCSL OEM-like license given to FreeBSD foundation. The foundation's attempts to contact Sun to renegotiate the license have gone unanswered. Javalobby.org also carries the news." It would seem that Sun has terminated all SCSL licenses across the board in preparation for the release of Java 5, and while the renegotiation process may be a bit bumpy, it's likely that Java will continue to be ported to FreeBSD.

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Alternatives? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11273566)

OK. I'm going to ask the obvious. Why not go with another JVM, such as say the Blackdown version?

Oh, and FP. :)

I never understood (5, Interesting)

miyako (632510) | more than 9 years ago | (#11273589)

I never understood how it's good for Sun to prohibit the redistrobution of Java with BSD or Linux.
It seems to me that any benefits there might be would be lost because they are opening themselves up to having an open source, or at least more easily re-distributable JVM become the most common, and therefore standard, VM.
Besides, if they are giving it away for free anway, what benefit is there to forcing anyone who wants it to get it from Sun?

Re:I never understood (2, Interesting)

swdunlop (103066) | more than 9 years ago | (#11273661)

One of the last standing feature points for Solaris has over most other OS's is first tier support by Sun's JRE's -- it is Sun's best interest to confuse and cripple any efforts to make ports of the VM that make good use of the host operating system's strengths, to protect what is becoming the last good reason to use Solaris in the datacenter.

Sun's SCSL was originally a poorly considered defense against a licensee trying to pull the same embrace, pervert and promote strategy that Microsoft employed with their JVM, but it has become a way for Sun to try to make some money off its competitors with convoluted license issues.

Re:I never understood (1)

michaelggreer (612022) | more than 9 years ago | (#11273844)

Apple distributes their own, with features that have only now made it into the Sun JVM for other OSes (shared memory, etc). It is most definately first tier, and has been done with Sun's full support.

The FreeBSD issue was a licensing mistake, and is now cleared up. It shows the weakness of non-free Java for the community, but it is not evidence of a vast conspiracy to make Java slow. Could you provide such evidence for your argument?

Point being... (1)

hummassa (157160) | more than 9 years ago | (#11273929)

The FreeBSD issue was a licensing mistake... that with Sun's current licensing scheme, you are at the mercy of their mistakes, because the license is revokable (in other words, because Java is not Free Software).

IRT Apple, Sun did not Give support, they Sold support :-) because OSX is Not Free Software either.

Re:Point being... (1)

michaelggreer (612022) | more than 9 years ago | (#11274477)

That is an excellent point (which I think I also made), but not the one I was refuting. The parent claimed Sun was doing all this to keep Solaris the best Java platform. I simply think that idea had no merit.

Re:I never understood (2, Interesting)

Sunspire (784352) | more than 9 years ago | (#11276362)

One of the last standing feature points for Solaris has over most other OS's is first tier support by Sun's JRE's

Which is kind of funny considering the Solaris JRE is pretty much widely considered to be the worst version available. As anyone who has had the "pleasure" of working with said version will know, it has had a whole slew of issues and is to this day not on par with the Linux or Windows versions.

Re:I never understood (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11273757)

FreeBSD is distributing it. They call it Java(tm). Anyone who uses the VM sees it called Java(tm) and knows that Java(tm) apps will run on it.

However, FreeBSD has not actually paid up to have the JVM branded as Java(tm). So Sun says, that's not branded Java, and if you keep saying it is, we will revoke your distribution license. And they did.

It's still dumb, because you can still get Java(tm) directly from Sun.

Though Java(tm) is available free, if you want to distribute it and you aren't Sun, you're going to have to pay to have a TCK (certification test) performed. That costs a lot of money that a volunteer project like FreeBSD probably isn't interested in fronting.

So no more Java(tm) for FreeBSD users, unless they go get it themselves from Sun.

Re:I never understood (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11274029)

No, the FreeBSD Foundation actually paid the cash to get FreeBSD certified for Java. This means the jdk/jre package has to pass a series of tests. Then, and only then, you can distribute java and have your OS approved. The problem is that Sun has changed the licensing for Java5 and a new agreement hasn't yet been reached.

--
HawkinsOS [hawkinsos.com] , kick Smorgrav in the ass.

Re:I never understood (1)

SunFan (845761) | more than 9 years ago | (#11279114)


So...basically this whole Slashdot article is one big troll. People will bash Sun at every opportunity while not realizing that Sun is 1000% friendlier than Microsoft, HP, and IBM, especially with regard to OSS. HP and IBM's Linux efforts are more of the "me too" category, while Sun releases OpenOffice.org, Tomcat, Netbeans, Grid Engine, provides Java on Linux, is open-sourcing Solaris, they are major GNOME supporters, and they are major Mozilla supporters.

The Slashdot trolls really need to think about who their enemies are. They may suprise themselves.

Re:I never understood (4, Informative)

arivanov (12034) | more than 9 years ago | (#11273850)

This means that you do not understand the meaning of java as far as Sun marketing strategy is concerned.

Java as far as Sun is concerned is a method of pushing a large number of customers onto Sun's native *sparc/Solaris platform and the associated software and support contract. The only reason for the existence of ports to other platforms is to bait people into switching.

  • It is the only platform with first tier support and the only platform whose scheduler is continuously updated and optimised specifically to match the Java current threading model.
  • Java is a big-endinan platform. All internal data representations must be big endian (this is in the standard) and execution on any small endian platform like x86 will always incur a performance penalty. This is similar to what MSFT is doing with .NET. It is specified as little endian for the exact same reason.
  • And if performance fails to help the fledging sales (Sun is having a really bad quarter), licensing comes to the rescue.

Re:I never understood (1)

mwvdlee (775178) | more than 9 years ago | (#11274505)

Uhm... I kinda think the big endian/little endian thing is due to CPU's used. .NET is primarily designed for x86 CPU's which are little endian and Java is designed to be platform agnostic, meaning using the most common (as in models, nog numbers) format for CPU's; big endian.

Please remember that practically every CPU architecture besides x86 is big-endian; Mac's, 99% of UNIX (AIX/HPUX/Solaris) machines, Z/OS machines, etc.

At some point in the distant future x86 will cease (as all things must come to an end) and we'll most likely be left with the superior big endian format.

If you were to design a platform agnostic virtual machine, would you nog make it big endian?

Besides; with recent JVM's the performanc penalty is neglicable at best, it's mostly recompiled to the native CPU at run-time anyway.

ARM and MIPS endianness in game consoles (2, Informative)

tepples (727027) | more than 9 years ago | (#11280364)

Please remember that practically every CPU architecture besides x86 is big-endian; Mac's, 99% of UNIX (AIX/HPUX/Solaris) machines, Z/OS machines, etc.

ARM7 and ARM9 can be set to big-endian or little-endian, but they're frozen to little-endian in every Nintendo Game Boy Advance and Nintendo DS handheld video game system. The MIPS processor in Sony's PS1 and PS2 video game consoles is configured little-endian as well.

Re:I never understood (3, Informative)

dtfinch (661405) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275033)

All external data representations must be big endian. For internal data, they just go with the endianness of the machine, and endian conversion is done when serializing/unserializing data.

Re:I never understood (0, Troll)

urlgrey (798089) | more than 9 years ago | (#11280047)

Well, actually, no one understands the meaning of Java as far as Sun's marketing strategy (or any other) is concerned. ;-)

Better alternatives to Java (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11273590)

There are now much better alternatives to Java for many programming tasks.

I've switched over to Ruby and my productivity has skyrocketed. Anyone who's done object-relational mapping using Java for example, should take a look at how Ruby does it using ActiveRecord.

I still use C++ for some programming tasks but find the need to do so less frequent each year. Thank God for smartpointers (boost library).

I might take a look at OCaml in the near future. Heard great things about it.

Re:Better alternatives to Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11273623)

And lest anyone think I've never used Java, I made a career of it for a few years. And even went through the hassle of getting 3 Java-related certifications from Sun (this was before we could find lists of test questions online or in books).

It served its purpose. Time to move on.

Re:Better alternatives to Java (2, Insightful)

davegaramond (632107) | more than 9 years ago | (#11273669)

Actually I'm glad that Sun restricts JDK/JRE distributions. It allows other (and better!) languages to flourish in Linux/BSD environments. Perl, Python, Ruby... I'd hate to hack Java OSS (but I fear in the future we will be seeing more and more C# OSS).

Re:Better alternatives to Java (2, Informative)

bhurt (1081) | more than 9 years ago | (#11274818)

And if you think Sun is bad, just wait until Microsoft starts playing with you.

My recommendation: learn Ocaml.

Re:Better alternatives to Java (1)

hey! (33014) | more than 9 years ago | (#11276499)

I've been looking at Groovy, and its very promising.

Right now the documentation is very poor and tools are rudimentary, but it seems to bring a lot of the benefits of scripting languages like Python or Ruby the the Java VM. The ability to use the Java libraries is huge; even huger is the ability to compile to class files, which allows you to use it every place you can use java. By that I'm not talking just about operating systems but things application servers and database triggers.

Re:Better alternatives to Java (1)

Archimboldo (847057) | more than 9 years ago | (#11278698)

I vaguely recall performance comparisons between Ruby and Java, and that Java was significantly faster. True or no?

Re:Better alternatives to Java (1)

utlemming (654269) | more than 9 years ago | (#11280958)

The big problem is getting to work on a browser. That the main reason that I don't surf the web in FreeBSD -- getting a Java plugin to work is less fun than going over to the dentist. And I hate the dentist.

Re:Better alternatives to Java (1)

boelthorn (711135) | more than 9 years ago | (#11282568)

I surf this site with Firefox on FreeBSD. I have no problem with plugins (Java, mplayer, flash (via linuxpluginwrapper). I did nothing special. FreeBSD has improved a great deal in this area the last year.

Re:Better alternatives to Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275902)

I use Perl and C myself. The interesting thing is that Perl is more portable than Java. It runs on a lot more archs. :)
The only place I think Java has an edge over Perl is multithreading. The Perl threads are "iffy". They seem to work ok for me, but they're known to have problems, and one should never try to use more than a handful of them at a time.
But then only on platforms that don't have fork() does this make any difference to me...

Better alternatives to Java-Scheme-ng. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11277038)

"There are now much better alternatives to Java for many programming tasks."

Like Scheme.

Re:Better alternatives to Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11278656)

There are now much better alternatives to Java for many programming tasks.

I agree. Even if you need to target web browsers, you can compile Python to JVM bytecode. I hadn't used Python in years, but I picked it up again about a year ago, and I was surprised just how quickly I could put together a working program. Python really is a productive language, but you really don't believe it until you are working with it on a regular basis.

Re:Better alternatives to Java (1)

SunFan (845761) | more than 9 years ago | (#11279160)


Java is probably the most mature and complete cross platform environment in existence. People should not look upon this lightly.

Re:Better alternatives to Java (1)

cmad_x (723313) | more than 9 years ago | (#11279763)

So are you suggesting that the Java products be rewritten in some other language, or just stating something off-topic?

Either way: you can't compare Java to, say, Ruby... Their goals are different.

Re:Better alternatives to Java (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11279979)

There were then much better alternatives to Java for many programming tasks when Java first came out. Now it's too late. Java is entrenched, and we're stuck with it. At least, some of us are.

Re:Better alternatives to Java (2, Insightful)

boelthorn (711135) | more than 9 years ago | (#11282493)

Take a look at Common Lisp (see: http://www.common-lisp.net/ [common-lisp.net] or http://www.cliki.net/ [cliki.net] or http://sbcl.sf.net/ [sf.net] ).

It is a language supporting every paradigm you'll ever need. And if not you can (portably!) code it. The hacker's language of choice.

Re:Better alternatives to Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11283517)

Anyone who's done object-relational mapping using Java for example

Does it using Hibernate and then wonders what all the fuss is about.

About the money. (-1, Troll)

Perdo (151843) | more than 9 years ago | (#11273591)

Open source...

Solaris, Open Office, Danese

http://slashdot.org/interviews/02/01/10/1245221. sh tml

All bs.

Makes money?

Iron fisted grip.

Looses money?

Open source, twist the knife in MS's ribs

No better than Apple or SGI.

Sun:

The 15bn dollar market cap company that was able to parlay Java into a 3bn dollar settlement with MS over virtual machine.

1/30 the size of Microsoft, 1/20 the size of their primary competition, IBM.

"More linux desktops" than any company in the world (in china).

Supports the open source community at their convenience. So much for "write once, run anywhere. If it ever was the case with effectively 5 forks in their own code.

Well, BSD is dieing anyway right?

And their java web server runs better in a non-SPARC, non Solaris enviroment anyway.

BSD is dieing?

Sun is dieing!

Re:About the money. (3, Funny)

Tet (2721) | more than 9 years ago | (#11273624)

Oh for a -1 Inarticulate Rambling modifier...

Ah, I understand now. (1)

iainl (136759) | more than 9 years ago | (#11273594)

There was me trying to figure out: How do you revoke a BSD license? Surely someone can just take the code already?

BSD the OS, not BSD the license; it's a fairly oddly worded title...

Re:Ah, I understand now. (4, Informative)

Homology (639438) | more than 9 years ago | (#11273670)

The SUN Java is NOT under a BSD like license! Of course, OpenBSD will never agree to the terms offered by SUN, so here you must manually fetch the relevant files from the SUN and agree to their obnoxius license. On OpenBSD the port tells you where to download the relevant files as part of installation : Java 1.4_2 Makefile [openbsd.org]

My guess is that FreeBSD has to something similar.

Re:Ah, I understand now. (1)

setantae (103317) | more than 9 years ago | (#11274140)

The normal ports already do that.
This license was for precompiled binaries.

What's this 'SUN' you speak of? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11278824)

Oh, maybe you meant 'Sun'. My bad.

Re:What's this 'SUN' you speak of? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11283202)

Old name; Stanford University Network. They're called Sun Microsystems nowadays, short form: Sun.

Re:Ah, I understand now. (1)

molnarcs (675885) | more than 9 years ago | (#11281021)

The licence FreeBSD had extended to JDK 1.3.x binary distribution only. If you wanted a higher version, you had to do what apparently OpenBSD users have to: download the sources manually and put them in /usr/ports/distfiles/ .

Re:Ah, I understand now. (1)

lisaparratt (752068) | more than 9 years ago | (#11273846)

By being the copyright holder. Yes, you can take the code, but if the license has been revoked, then you're breaking the law.

FreeBSD... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11273617)

also gets pretty soundly demolished by NetBSD in basic performance measurements too. http://www.feyrer.de/NetBSD/gmcgarry/ [feyrer.de]

that's why java should be gpl'd (0, Flamebait)

dukeinlondon (745717) | more than 9 years ago | (#11273632)

If anyone needed an answer

Re:that's why java should be gpl'd (2, Interesting)

BoomerSooner (308737) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275716)

Actually it's why Java should be ignored. You're just as safe using an MS product as you are a Sun product. Actually with Sun's bleek future I would say being a MS shop is significantly more secure. I love Tomcat but this is one more reason to be wary.

1/2 my companies applications run on Tomcat the other half run on IIS. They both are behind firewalls and are both very stable (you don't have to reboot for every windows update, just stop and restart the services the same way you do in Unix-based OSes).

I'm a big fan of the new .Net architecture and the VS.Net tools that now allow you to step through ASP.Net code and SQL Stored Procedures. I guess I'm one of the rare people who like almost every platform available to develop on. ASP/SQL Server & JSP/PostgreSQL are my favorites.

Re:that's why java should be gpl'd (1)

TheLink (130905) | more than 9 years ago | (#11276992)

"They both are behind firewalls and are both very stable (you don't have to reboot for every windows update, just stop and restart the services the same way you do in Unix-based OSes)."

You sure? I think one problem on most Windows O/Ses is you can't remove/overwrite a file whilst it is in use. Whereas with Unix stuff - you can. So on windows the update software has to either rename any file/executable that is currently in use, copy in the new file and then remember to delete the renamed stuff AFTER everything restarts and the old stuff is nolonger in use... OR postpone the overwriting till some other time.

AFAIK I don't think the typical windows update method does the first method - often (not always) it appears to put the updates somewhere else, and the files are copied in during the boot up (overwriting the old stuff) - so you need to reboot in order to update.

I suppose if it is really supported by the update - you probably have to stop the relevant service THEN update the necessary files (windows update, hotfix etc), THEN restart the service.

This involves a lot more downtime AND tends to be more error-prone given the style of the way things are done in Windows - the joy of "seamless integration" = you might miss out one service that you are to stop and start.

So unless I see real evidence, I'd just reboot if the update requires it - hopefully stuff is in running a cluster or something.

Re:that's why java should be gpl'd (1)

BoomerSooner (308737) | more than 9 years ago | (#11278270)

So you install a new version of Tomcat over a running copy?

How hard is it to (in Windows):
1. Stop the Service (10-15 seconds)
2. Update Files (1-2 minutes)
3. Restart Services (10-15 seconds)

SQL Server is the same way except it does those things for you.

If you want evidence simply test it out for yourself. All you need to do is check the dll/exe/etc versions that are being updated.

Personally I generally do reboot because I'm lazy. But if you're really concerned with up-time it can be done.

BTW Here is a link to a longest up time on netcraft [netcraft.com] . It's doubtful that they have installed no patches on #15 (Windows running Apache).

Re:that's why java should be gpl'd (1)

Homology (639438) | more than 9 years ago | (#11280870)

Personally I generally do reboot because I'm lazy. But if you're really concerned with up-time it can be done.

Reboot has the nice property of actually testing that the server works after a power outage. Now, Microsoft Windows is a bit excessive on the need for rebooting, but that's another story .-)

Story is wrong (5, Informative)

cperciva (102828) | more than 9 years ago | (#11273636)

I'm not directly involved here, so I don't know all the details, but I talk to people from the FreeBSD Foundation on a regular basis. Hopefully they'll forgive me if I get some of the details wrong here.

Basically, the story can be summarized as follows:

1. Sun dropped the ball by mistake.
2. FreeBSD Foundation didn't know what was going on, and mentioned the problem in their newsletter.
3. People at Sun realized that they had dropped the ball.
4. Sun picked up the ball and put it through the goal posts (or whatever the right sports analogy is).

This whole story is really just a misunderstanding. Sun wasn't trying to be evil, they just made a mistake, and as soon as they realized that there was a problem they started doing all that they could to fix it.

The new license should be announced Real Soon Now.

Re:Story is wrong (1)

endx7 (706884) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275141)

So (trying to get this straight), has the FreeBSD Foundation gotten a hold on the Sun licensing people yet (since the newsletter was posted)?

Re:Story is wrong (1)

endx7 (706884) | more than 9 years ago | (#11278068)

Nevermind, phk clarified. :)

A case of bad communication (5, Informative)

phkamp (524380) | more than 9 years ago | (#11273654)

Justin Gibbs, The foundations founder and financial officer said yesterday that this was just a case of bad communication and that it was already resolved. Poul-Henning

Re:A case of bad communication (5, Insightful)

Homology (639438) | more than 9 years ago | (#11273684)

Justin Gibbs, The foundations founder and financial officer said yesterday that this was just a case of bad communication and that it was already resolved. Poul-Henning

But a very nice reminder of what SUN can do to those using Java.

Re:A case of bad communication (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11274178)

But a very nice reminder of what SUN can do to those using Java.

What - make every effort to solve issues as quickly as they can? Man, better be careful, they might start fixing bugs too, and then where would we be?

Seriously, so Sun can screw you if they get a bad case of corporate madness and decide to become Evil(tm), so what? Nobody is safe from "evil". If Linus ate a bad sausage and turned into Dark Linus, he could easily introduce a subtle backdoor into the Linux kernel and use that to do untold damage. We trust him not to, because it's simply not worth worrying about something so unlikely. Likewise, it's not worth worrying about Sun turning evil. Even if they did deliberately start revoking licenses for their Java implementation, which they won't, there's nothing stopping anyone from moving to a Free implementation...

Re:A case of bad communication (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11276088)

But a very nice reminder of what SUN can do to those using Java.
Several re-reads of this, in context, convince me that 'SUN' was capitalized not for emphasis but because the author thinks it's an acronym.

And I thought the dufuses on Slashdot who write 'MAC' instead of Mac were idiots.

So... what does SUN stand for? Stanford User Network? Silly Urchin Napkins? Ah yes: Synthetic Upgraded Neohuman [cyborgname.com] .

Re:A case of bad communication (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11276566)

*** yawn ***

Re:A case of bad communication (2, Funny)

SunFan (845761) | more than 9 years ago | (#11279217)

But a very nice reminder of what SUN can do to those using Java.

So...what do you think about .NET?

Free .NET clone vs. free Java clone (1)

tepples (727027) | more than 9 years ago | (#11280450)

The .NET framework has a free implementation [mono-project.com] . The Java platform has a free implementation in the combination of GCJ [gnu.org] , Kaffe [kaffe.org] , and GNU Classpath [gnu.org] . Which is more complete in practice?

Re:Free .NET clone vs. free Java clone (1)

SunFan (845761) | more than 9 years ago | (#11281229)

Which is more complete in practice?

Java is 100% on Window, Linux, and UNIX. .NET is 100% on...Windows.

Re:Free .NET clone vs. free Java clone (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11283233)

s/Fan/Zealot/g

1) We're discussing free clones.
2) Free .NET/C# implementations exist.
3) I assume GP wanted to discuss the completeness of these free clones. Your post doesn't address that at all.

Re:Free .NET clone vs. free Java clone (1)

SunFan (845761) | more than 9 years ago | (#11283508)

Your post doesn't address that at all.

Okay. Of the free ones, NONE are complete. However, the Java ones at least have a chance, given that Microsoft is in a position to leverage patents and trade secrets against Mono and Rotor. At least certain versions of Java (e.g., 1.3.x) provide a fixed target and Sun allows complete implementations and encourages them. Sun is a hardware company and considers Java an enabler, Microsoft is a software company and considers .NET part of their only source of revenue. Only people completely committed to the Microsoft platform should ever consider .NET. Mono and Rotor are for entertainment purposes only.

Re:A case of bad communication (1)

Homology (639438) | more than 9 years ago | (#11280551)

But a very nice reminder of what SUN can do to those using Java.

So...what do you think about .NET?

Someone modded you as "+1 Funny" :) On the more serious note, Microsoft does not claim .NET to be Open Source Run Everywhere(TM) like Sun. They do have some patents that are troublesome for the Mono project. Appart from the patents issue, Mono is GPL and thus less risky. I don't use Mono myself, though.

Re:A case of bad communication (1)

TravisWatkins (746905) | more than 9 years ago | (#11283692)

Only the compilers and 'tools' are GPL. The majority of the work (the class libraries) is licensed under the X11 license. See here [myrealbox.com]

MOD PARENT WAY, WAY UP (0)

captnitro (160231) | more than 9 years ago | (#11273687)

Please, mods, mod parent up. This is phk -- read yo' code. He knows what he's talking about, not to mention that everybody else agrees.

Re:A case of bad communication (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11274055)

Fuck off Poul, and fuck that Smorgreff [www.des.no] asshole as well.

--
HawkinsOS [hawkinsos.com] , enterprise ready today.

Re:A case of bad communication (1)

Homology (639438) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275354)

Fuck off Poul, and fuck that Smorgreff asshole as well.

--
HawkinsOS [hawkinsos.com] , enterprise ready today.

I've seen your immature post here on /. now and then. You are representing that company, perhaps started it? In case you are part of that company, it's clear that your posts is only doing damage to it. Perhaps that's your point?

Re:A case of bad communication (1)

csokat (547215) | more than 9 years ago | (#11279566)

HawkinsOS, enterprise ready on June 15th 2004

Re:A case of bad communication (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11283269)

Ay, give me that vaporizer man!

Who is the rambling, raving lunatic now, uh? (4, Insightful)

hummassa (157160) | more than 9 years ago | (#11273662)

Disclaimer 1: I have READ the Fine Article.

What it is: Sun licenses the JVM to the FreeBSD community under the SCSL. Sun unilaterally has the right to revoke it. Sun DID revoke it, albeit in preparation to negotiate terms for new community license. Guys at FreeBSD do not know who to ask right now. E-mails from non-revenue-generating FreeBSD got unanswered.

What it really is: RMS is right. Anyone deploying Java apps under FreeBSD for a reason or another is now a hostage in this situation. Why? Because Sun *can* (and, depending on shareholders $$$ desire, *will*) pull the plug at any time. Why? Because the JVM and standard classes are NOT FREE SOFTWARE. Free Software is about freedom, not about price.

Oh, come on, everyone with prospects of starting their first Java projects, especially governments going the Free Software way, should DROP it and go to other platform.

Re:Who is the rambling, raving lunatic now, uh? (1)

Ibn al-Hazardous (83553) | more than 9 years ago | (#11273866)

Now, will you take to browsing at 1 before you post too? (RTFAing does not seem to be enough.)

Your point is valid - Sun can revoke the license unilaterally. However, when you shot off this post you already had a couple of factual errors: Sun revoked it by mistake, the guys at FreeBSD knew who to ask, and their emails did get answered.

In short, for not having done your research (there are not that many comments here yet, and they were fewer when you posted), you look at least a bit raving IMHO.

No need to attack me... (5, Informative)

hummassa (157160) | more than 9 years ago | (#11273992)

A) I was reading at -1. The "this was a mistake and we cleared it up" post had not showed up when I started posting.

B) It is not relevant that the revoking was by mistake. Eventually, it can be done on purpose, too. And that is the problem.

C) No, they did not knew exactly who to ask, and at least when the FreeBSD foundation report was done they did not receive any answer. It's irrelevant for the discussion of this piece, IMHO, that they eventually cleared up the situation. Had the climate at Sun WRT FreeBSD been different, Sun could stall this and caused a lot of damage. And they still can, at any time, because Java is not Free Software.

D) I am not raving and nor is RMS, which is whom I was referring to. Java is not Free Software. If you are considering Free Software (as a lot of governments are doing nowadays with a lot of good reasons to do so... see http://www.gnu.org.pe/resmseng.html [gnu.org.pe] ) you should not consider Java as a good option for software development (unless Kaffe [or other Free JVM] + GNUClassPath is good enough for you). And this was my conclusion in the end of my post.

E) As an aftertought, disclaimer, etc: I started to post my piece as soon as I saw the blurb (when I woke up this morning) and it had only 9 posts at -1. When I finally organized those three short paragraphs, and clicked Submit, it had 20+ posts, with some (3?) of those under the "A case of bad communication by phkamp (524380) (#11273654)" post. I took good 10-15 minutes to write this answer up, because I don't troll. I believe that RMS is right and that proprietary software is a legalized scam. And I really like J2EE (technically) as a platform but I really dislike the power that Sun exerts over it and the MS-like lock-in that it represents.

--
And this is not a sig.

Re:No need to attack me... (1)

cculianu (183926) | more than 9 years ago | (#11276409)

I completely agree with this quote:

I don't troll. I believe that RMS is right and that proprietary software is a legalized scam. And I really like J2EE (technically) as a platform but I really dislike the power that Sun exerts over it and the MS-like lock-in that it represents.

Actually.. if you take this point of view truly seriously, it becomes obvious that many laws that protect corporations and eliminate competition can be viewed as legalized scams. I strongly believe this but convincing people in a culture where so many people are dependent on their 'corporate masters' (to use a cliche) is very difficult. So many of us are either involved in the scam or strive to be (eg we are in college and would really like to be employed by a scammer) that convincing people that software patents and much of copyright law is a scam is really rather like convincing a person that his wife is a whore, or his brother is a liar, or that his country sucks or that his family is retarded. It is difficult for a person to accept negative truths about something they are emotionally involved with.

People make excuses for those close to them or those things on which they depend.

The cognitive dissonance is too much for some people and they choose to look the other way...

However, if one can be impartial -- copyrights and patents on software are legalized scams. Any arguments that they 'benefit society' in some way are just regurgitations of the scammer's lie.

If you think I am too extreme in my views, perhaps I am. Perhaps you are right and I am wrong. However consider at least the question of whether we give the scammers too much power over the marketplace and whether we unnecessarily protect already-successful companies that have long since stopped actively contributing to the benefit of the market or the economy in general (I am thinking in particular of giants in the music industry or giants in the software industry that try and patent software techniques, etc).

Re:No need to attack me... (2, Insightful)

i_r_sensitive (697893) | more than 9 years ago | (#11277819)

People make excuses for those close to them or those things on which they depend.
Like perhaps their dearly held views that patents and copyrights are just legal scams?

So, copyright and patents are just legal scams perpetrated by the scammers, or the man, or whitey, or whatever to keep you down are they? So when the patent office opened all those years ago it was just to keep you down? Oh, sorry, I forgot about feeding your over-weaning paranoia...

No, in point of fact the raison d'etre for the patent office and the origins of patent law is quite the opposite. This is called history, and it is fact.

So you may abhor what that body of law has become, and you may abhor the gross abuses of the spirit of that body of law, but at least do yourself the courtesy to stop propogating lies to yourself. Arm yourself with some facts so that when dawn's battle arrives you at least are oriented in the the direction of the true enemy, and not flailing at his pawns and surrogates...

Now, copyright law, I agree is nothing but a scam, designed to keep the poor on the bottom and the rich on top. Copyright law is the reason we have no cure for cancer, it is a mechanism designed by the illuminati for the sole purpose of stiffling creativity, preventing the free flow of ideas and information. And you "know" you must be right because your prophet RMS made no use of copyright law when he drafted the GPL to protect F/OSS software...

There ought to be a new class of logic error for this. Fallacious Appeal to Misquoted Authority or something along those lines...

The point is, without copyright law, the GPL is just high grade toilet paper. Without patent law, Edison never has the means to realize the inventions of his later years.

It's called throwing the baby out with the bath water, and it is widely recognized as a sub-optimal choice. Perhaps if we can learn to seperate the abuse of process from the process, we can treat the abuse of process in a meaningful fashion. However, such a goal is nearly impossible to realize when otherwise rational, well-articulated folk refuse to identify the real issue, and consequently dilute and confuse the issue for the rest.

The real problem, to me is that ... (2, Interesting)

hummassa (157160) | more than 9 years ago | (#11278928)

As I said in another post (#11167772 [slashdot.org] ), I believe every producer of what lawyers call "Intellectual Property" should be remunerated mainly by producing it and less by generating a lot of copies of it.

This is, mainly, what happens today to the real *producer*: programmers get salaries, journalists (who are the *real* writers in terms of quantity) get salaries... while Britney/Eminem gets a lot of $$$ for ... well ... being themselves, and Sony/EMI/*AA-affiliate gets the REAL $$$^$$$ for copying and distributing it. Do you get the difference?

Re:No need to attack me... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11279115)

There are two problems with patent laws. They are both easy to remedy.
1) Patents are given for the all too obvious - Revoke patents that are just implementations of the truly novel idea. Make much stricter guidelines for awarding patents. Allow much easier revocation of patents wrongfully given out.
2) Patents for Corporations - Patents should only be rewarded to the individual and by law, the individual can only sign away his rights to the patent through death. Patents were made so the little guy can prosper in a land of giants. These giants should not be able to use these patents to protect themselves by keeping competition stiffled.

Re:No need to attack me... (1)

Joey Vegetables (686525) | more than 9 years ago | (#11279206)

We live in a world that we would like to believe is largely free, but, because of various systems of power and control, including those you mentioned and many more, it is not.

The book linked to in my sig contains many additional examples, and a strategy for overcoming them.

Re:No need to attack me... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11276657)

you should not consider Java as a good option for software development (unless Kaffe [or other Free JVM] + GNUClassPath is good enough for you). And this was my conclusion in the end of my post.

That's RMS opinion, but as a Classpath contributor I don't quite agree with that. I/We aren't as unrealistic as to expect everone to develop towards our implementation. I'd rather see developers refrain from using undocumented behavior or relying on bugs. (which any developer worth their salt should be avoiding anyway) Also, avoiding the latest-and-greatest features if possible is good too. (Another thing a good developer will do anyway, since you shouldn't create dependencies on a higher version than necessary)

At the moment, Classpath is undergoing quite rapid development. A 1.0 release is scheduled for soon. (Which aims to be fully Java 1.0/1.1 compatible. I'm aware that probably sounds very lame, but rest assured that substantial parts of 1.2, 1.3, 1.4 are already in place, and there's a fork workign on Java 5/1.5 too)

The main missing parts are in Swing and CORBA at the moment.

Re:No need to attack me... (1)

0racle (667029) | more than 9 years ago | (#11278587)

B)It is not relevant that the revoking was by mistake. Eventually, it can be done on purpose, too. And that is the problem.
Its only a problem if your an idiot and didn't read the licence that Java is distributed under. Also did you know that your 'right' to GPL software can be revoked as well if you don't follow the terms of the GPL? Is that not also a problem by your statement here?

It was relevant that Sun revoked FreeBSD's license to Java since it was a mistake. Mistakes happen.

you did not articulate your argument well. (1)

hummassa (157160) | more than 9 years ago | (#11278770)

Have *you* read the SCSL? can *you* quote what you're talking about?

Re:you did not articulate your argument well. (1)

0racle (667029) | more than 9 years ago | (#11279111)

I don't use Java on *BSD's so no, I have not read it since I have not agreed to it.

So, just to clarify: (1)

hummassa (157160) | more than 9 years ago | (#11279659)

A. the SCSL can be revoked at any time by Sun (sections 6, 7, and 8).

B. this applies IIRC to other JVMs for Linux and Windows too.

C. those facts (A and B above) permit that Sun exerts enourmous pressure on the Java Free Software Comunity, because...

D. (surprise, surprise)Java is not Free Software.

E. (conclusion) Thou Shall Not use Java to build Free Software.

Got it?

Re:So, just to clarify: (1)

0racle (667029) | more than 9 years ago | (#11280684)

A, B and C are irrelevent because you had to agree to it to to work with the Java *SOURCE* not the not the JRE or the SDK, used to deploy and write Java apps. The license for the JRE and SDK clearly state that if you do not abide by the licence then you no longer have the right to use it, not simply because Sun is having a fit. You do not have to agree to the SCSL to use Java or write Java applications.

You must feel like a real genius to be able to point out that Java is not FOSS, your only the millionth or so person to do so.

I will use whatever language I want to write software, free or otherwise, when I want to do something in Java, I will.

Re:So, just to clarify: (1)

hummassa (157160) | more than 9 years ago | (#11282716)

I will use whatever language I want to write software, free or otherwise, when I want to do something in Java, I will. AND you can jump off a cliff without any ropes or equipment too.
What I wrote and you refused to read is: once you develop under Java, you are under Sun Microsystems' reign. I would not recommend it. There are options. Especially if you want to develop free software. You are trolling. End of transmission.

Re:No need to attack me... (1)

Homology (639438) | more than 9 years ago | (#11280679)

Its only a problem if your an idiot and didn't read the licence that Java is distributed under. Also did you know that your 'right' to GPL software can be revoked as well if you don't follow the terms of the GPL? Is that not also a problem by your statement here?

Far from it, really. Sun can, more or less, at any moment revoke the license at their own discretion. This is not the case with BSD or GPL license.

The duplicity of Java (2, Insightful)

breakbeatninja (846922) | more than 9 years ago | (#11273828)

Sun's Java, a programming language aimed for all platforms and operating systems, supposedly ubiquitous in any computing environment. So, let me ask, why would they, with that goal in mind, revoke *any* license for *any* operating system? They simply limit their potential users and the potential of their language as being widely adopted.

Migration (1)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 9 years ago | (#11277234)

Its can make Sun's OS's more attaractive to people that have bought in, and sold their soul on Java applications..

Expert reveals What Killed FreeBSD (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11273889)

The End of FreeBSD

[ed. note: in the following text, former FreeBSD developer Mike Smith gives his reasons for abandoning FreeBSD]

When I stood for election to the FreeBSD core team nearly two years ago, many of you will recall that it was after a long series of debates during which I maintained that too much organisation, too many rules and too much formality would be a bad thing for the project.

Today, as I read the latest discussions on the future of the FreeBSD project, I see the same problem; a few new faces and many of the old going over the same tired arguments and suggesting variations on the same worthless schemes. Frankly I'm sick of it.

FreeBSD used to be fun. It used to be about doing things the right way. It used to be something that you could sink your teeth into when the mundane chores of programming for a living got you down. It was something cool and exciting; a way to spend your spare time on an endeavour you loved that was at the same time wholesome and worthwhile.

It's not anymore. It's about bylaws and committees and reports and milestones, telling others what to do and doing what you're told. It's about who can rant the longest or shout the loudest or mislead the most people into a bloc in order to legitimise doing what they think is best. Individuals notwithstanding, the project as a whole has lost track of where it's going, and has instead become obsessed with process and mechanics.

So I'm leaving core. I don't want to feel like I should be "doing something" about a project that has lost interest in having something done for it. I don't have the energy to fight what has clearly become a losing battle; I have a life to live and a job to keep, and I won't achieve any of the goals I personally consider worthwhile if I remain obligated to care for the project.

Discussion

I'm sure that I've offended some people already; I'm sure that by the time I'm done here, I'll have offended more. If you feel a need to play to the crowd in your replies rather than make a sincere effort to address the problems I'm discussing here, please do us the courtesy of playing your politics openly.

From a technical perspective, the project faces a set of challenges that significantly outstrips our ability to deliver. Some of the resources that we need to address these challenges are tied up in the fruitless metadiscussions that have raged since we made the mistake of electing officers. Others have left in disgust, or been driven out by the culture of abuse and distraction that has grown up since then. More may well remain available to recruitment, but while the project is busy infighting our chances for successful outreach are sorely diminished.

There's no simple solution to this. For the project to move forward, one or the other of the warring philosophies must win out; either the project returns to its laid-back roots and gets on with the work, or it transforms into a super-organised engineering project and executes a brilliant plan to deliver what, ultimately, we all know we want.

Whatever path is chosen, whatever balance is struck, the choosing and the striking are the important parts. The current indecision and endless conflict are incompatible with any sort of progress.

Trying to dissect the above is far beyond the scope of any parting shot, no matter how distended. All I can really ask of you all is to let go of the minutiae for a moment and take a look at the big picture. What is the ultimate goal here? How can we get there with as little overhead as possible? How would you like to be treated by your fellow travellers?

Shouts

To the Slashdot "BSD is dying" crowd - big deal. Death is part of the cycle; take a look at your soft, pallid bodies and consider that right this very moment, parts of you are dying. See? It's not so bad.

To the bulk of the FreeBSD committerbase and the developer community at large - keep your eyes on the real goals. It's when you get distracted by the politickers that they sideline you. The tireless work that you perform keeping the system clean and building is what provides the platform for the obsessives and the prima donnas to have their moments in the sun. In the end, we need you all; in order to go forwards we must first avoid going backwards.

To the paranoid conspiracy theorists - yes, I work for Apple too. No, my resignation wasn't on Steve's direct orders, or in any way related to work I'm doing, may do, may not do, or indeed what was in the tea I had at lunchtime today. It's about real problems that the project faces, real problems that the project has brought upon itself. You can't escape them by inventing excuses about outside influence, the problem stems from within.

To the politically obsessed - give it a break, if you can. No, the project isn't a lemonade stand anymore, but it's not a world-spanning corporate juggernaut either and some of the more grandiose visions going around are in need of a solid dose of reality. Keep it simple, stupid.

To the grandstanders, the prima donnas, and anyone that thinks that they can hold the project to ransom for their own agenda - give it a break, if you can. When the current core were elected, we took a conscious stand against vigorous sanctions, and some of you have exploited that. A new core is going to have to decide whether to repeat this mistake or get tough. I hope they learn from our errors.

Future

I started work on FreeBSD because it was fun. If I'm going to continue, it has to be fun again. There are things I still feel obligated to do, and with any luck I'll find the time to meet those obligations.

However I don't feel an obligation to get involved in the political mess the project is in right now. I tried, I burnt out. I don't feel that my efforts were worthwhile. So I won't be standing for election, I won't be shouting from the sidelines, and I probably won't vote in the next round of ballots.

You could say I'm packing up my toys. I'm not going home just yet, but I'm not going to play unless you can work out how to make the project somewhere fun to be again.

= Mike

--

Emulation (1)

the real darkskye (723822) | more than 9 years ago | (#11274129)

Well i guess its time to find out how well the svr4/sunos emulation in freebsd holds up and run the native version

Netcraft confirms: BSD trolls are dead. (3, Funny)

AtariAmarok (451306) | more than 9 years ago | (#11274240)

What? a BSD news item with only 1 out of 31 messages modded down? What is the world coming to?

fuck off - BSD is dead.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11282839)

..and you know it.

Note to moderators: you have just wasted one point.

A personal opinion (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11274645)

I would just like to say that I hope Java dies. I do not like it, I do not use it, I do not approve of it, I do not like other people using it, it should just shrivel up and die. I will start a company called The Universe so I can engulf Sun and make Java a bad memory.

There is absolutely no need to freak out... (3, Insightful)

pmike_bauer (763028) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275055)

The maner in which most people use Java on FreeBSD is not affected by this. Here is why
  1. This only affects binary distributions.
  2. The only binary distribution available is JDK 1.3
  3. Most FreeBSD Java users (myself included) build JDK 1.4 from source.
  4. Most FreeBSD Java users do not use the 1.3 binary distribution.

This confirms it (1)

one9nine (526521) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275901)

Java licences are dying ...

Re:This confirms it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11280708)

**** JAAAAAAAWNNNNN * be a bit more create please.

WTF? (2, Insightful)

nurb432 (527695) | more than 9 years ago | (#11276719)

While its their product and their choice, the attitude they are expressing makes me want to NOT continue with Java ( or sun ) in any form.

Revoking existing licenses is just uncool. It also is bad business.

Some people need older versions of software.

Strange Plan ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11276973)

This seems like an odd thing to do - increase restrictions on Java's use. Especially with increasing competion from C#... Maybe not though considering their bedfellows wonder if there was a push from redmond here - and what might the alteriour motive be. Sun just seem to make mistake after mistake. They will be assimilated or simply die.

My personal experience in the FreeBSD world (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11279047)

I've been an avid follower of the developments in FreeBSD for around 5 years now, so my overview of the entire history of "glue that binds" FreeBSD together isn't complete. That said, I've come to be a bit disappointed at how events in the last 18 months or so seem to be pushing the project in a direction that has made things more difficult, instead of more successful, that has shown distain for experience and quality and made FreeBSD a platform for large ego's to push their personal projects down everyone's throat.

The statistics sample from over a year was a cheap attempt to minimize Matt's contribution to the project. The reason why he has been mostly silent is probably one of the most prominent signs of his superior maturity. The fact that the official defense (mostly fronted by Greg, atm) he wasn't such a substantial committer is crap, for the most part. If one wanted to go by the stats, Jeff Robertson (sorry if I munged the spelling) would be one of the key committers, and his UMA system isn't even entirely ripe yet, it's just been committed within the sample timeframe. That suddenly phk is at the top of the list, is simple a result of his newest attempt to add another large chunk of bit rot to the project that he can later claim not to have time to maintain "unless someone is willing to pay for my time" (like the atm bits, the half-finished devd monster, et.al.) One can hardly get him to look at his malloc bits, that put his name in lights at some point in the long past.

Matt didn't contribute because he was convinced that that the smp development direction that was chosen (my impression at least from the archives and my fading memory) was overly complex, too complex for the number and talent level of the contributers involved, and that it would delay a release from the -current branch significantly. So he was right. I'll almost bet that that was a constant sore for John, who still hasn't gotten his long-promised, but little delivered re-entrant work done, but he always had time enough to object to any other commits that might help along the way. Strangely Julian and Matt could work together. One might attribute certain commits to both Matt and Julian (if that would matter anyway, since -core is interested in proving the opposite statistically).

If the issue here had anything to do with IPFW, then you all better get out your C-coder hats and take a little more time to fix that rotting pile of muck that has been the standard broken packet filter interface for FreeBSD long past its possible usefulness. A packet filter with no central maintainer which is subject to once yearly random feature bloat through some wild university project from Luigi. The brokenness that Luigi introduced (and the repository bloat through backing out and recommitting, ad absurdum) was probably no less a threat to security than anything Matt did. If the security officer was to be blatantly honest with himself, ipfw would be marked broken for either a full audit or full removal (just port obsd's pf or something that someone actually actively _cares_ about).

You've alienated Jordan, Mike, Bill Paul (for all I can see), Greenman, you constantly rag on Terry, even though he's seen and done more with FreeBSD than most of you, O'Brien is on the verge of quitting (since he, like I, am not convinced that GEOM is anything more than an ego trip that will never be completely maintained or usefully documented). There are certainly others, too, that have attempted to make technically correct contributions, but didn't fit into the sort of paranoid "glee club" that core would like to have around them. You guys lack the talent to steer the positive from Matt into the project and let the crap fall by the wayside. I'm not saying Matt's rants are the most intelligent thing he's done, but he's sat by the wayside and watch the superstars beat up the code to a point where it's less stable, slower, and more bloated than it ever was. I, for one, can understand his frustration (as I can with Mike's, Jordan's, and a few others), although I find his method of expressing it extreme, I often wished he'd have just visited the offenders personally with a clue bat.

All in all, history will judge if -core has made the right decision. I personally believe it was a decision made in weakness. The loss the project as a whole will suffer is greater than the bruised ego's the -core has had to deal with in its communications with Matt. Matt was an extremist, but he put up or shut up. I wish I could say that for most of -core. This is a personality confict in a technical project. I'd say that most of you take this just as personally as Matt did, but instead of insulting him in a moment of anger, you shoot off your own respective feet, lose a good deal of experience and embarass the man publicly. You talk the talk of respect, but you aren't walking the walk. I'd say most of you need thicker skin. In the end, FreeBSD folk will walk smiling though the streets, but the project will become a cult of likeable people, instead of one that achieved technical excellence. That will, imho, be what history says of the current -core. Hint: lose the touchy-feely, hack the code.

PS: if I've offended anyone (yeah, I singled a few out), prove me wrong, but spare me your insultedness. It's become a pathetic hobby in -core. By the way, NetBSD smokes FreeBSD in all the meaningful benchmarks. FreeBSD has become a floater in NetBSD's toilet.

Linux ABI runs Linux JDKs on FreeBSD (1)

ewg (158266) | more than 9 years ago | (#11279481)

I have run Linux JDKs on FreeBSD/i386 using the Linux ABI. Not in a production environment, but it's what I would consider if the native port ever went away.

Re:Linux ABI runs Linux JDKs on FreeBSD (1)

Brandybuck (704397) | more than 9 years ago | (#11280390)

That is until Sun revoke's Linux's license...

Re:Linux ABI runs Linux JDKs on FreeBSD (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11282784)

Unlikely. IBM has made a huge investmen in Java (to fight .NET). If that would happen, IBM would buy Sun, take Java, and kill their hardware services. Sounds like win-win to me :)

License?? The "make install" is poisonned!!! (1)

relaxrelax (820738) | more than 9 years ago | (#11283008)

Simple end user here.

License pull. Like it's gonna make any kind of difference!!!

I've been trying to have java in mozilla for browsing for weeks, but freeBSD 5.2 and linuxbase 7 won't cooperate and sun's instructions are a mess.

Who needs to use a license to pull in order to sterilize innovation when you can poison the "make install clean" process instead?

Anyone who knows better than me should visit the FreeBSD wiki [freebsdwiki.net] and leave documentation proving mozilla CAN run java at all.

Or linux-mozilla. Or thunderbird. Whatever. I'm getting less picky every week about which browser to run java on. I may even downgrade my FreeBSD to run java if I can't find a solution in the next two weeks. *shudder*

I'm putting Sun on my no-buy list, next to Microsoft and Ron Hubbard's fiction books!

P.S.: The FreeBSD wiki won't pull license on the documentation or be hard to use. This proves Sun is not involved. (-;

Bones tells all (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11283506)

When I think about FreeBSD, I'm reminded of
DeForest Kelley's prescient observation:
It's dead, Jim.
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