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Conspiring Against Your Employer? Watch What You Email

michael posted more than 9 years ago | from the 0wnz0red dept.

Privacy 420

Eric Giguere writes "In a story that has Bay Street (the Canadian equivalent of Wall Street) in a kerfuffle, the Globe and Mail writes that bank employees defecting to set up a rival investment firm didn't realize that their employer could easily track the emails and messages they sent and received, even when they're sent via a nominally-secure system like RIM's BlackBerry. In particular, the employees were assuming that the messages they sent via direct PIN-to-PIN communication (a PIN uniquely identifies a BlackBerry device) weren't trackable. But if they're on the device, they're available to the employer to see. The employees may also have thought that PIN-to-PIN messages are encrypted, though RIM has always said that they're not -- it's only the connection to the corporate email server that is secure. A lot of damning information pulled from those emails and messages has made its way into a lawsuit."

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Can I be the first to say "duh"? (4, Insightful)

the_mad_poster (640772) | more than 9 years ago | (#11274938)

Honestly now, any communication that passes through any computer controlled by your company can be seen. Even if they were encrypted, if, at any point they are EVER stored outside of volatile memory unencrypted, they're available.

If you're doing something with their resources like plotting against them... well...

Re:Can I be the first to say "duh"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11274973)

Thats the nature of the beast. :o

Re:Can I be the first to say "duh"? (0, Offtopic)

lucabrasi999 (585141) | more than 9 years ago | (#11274982)

any communication that passes through any computer controlled by your company can be seen

OOOOhhhhh, I wondered why my boss knew how many posts I made to /. yesterday....

Agreed (3, Interesting)

log0n (18224) | more than 9 years ago | (#11274988)

I can't believe that this isn't even common sense for a lot of people.

People are either getting dumber, or too trustful - either way, one is a sure sign of another.

IM's too. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275143)

People will say the darndest things over IM clients...

"I want to probe your cavern" I mean come on .. I was laughing over that one for weeks.

** everything you do on my network will be monitored and laughed at **

Re:Can I be the first to say "duh"? (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275179)

I don't understand why it's not simple for people to understand. it's not your computer, it's not your network, it's not your e-mail: you are NOT protected.

Re:Can I be the first to say "duh"? (2, Insightful)

Honig the Apothecary (515163) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275210)

Because people are fucking dumb?
I mean seriously, how dense to you have to be to realize that there is no expectation of privacy at work. It is usually spelled out in the policies. If they own or pay for the computer, the network, or whatever other methods your connect with, they are going to be able to know what is passing between those devices.

Duh.

Re:Can I be the first to say "duh"? (1)

gcaseye6677 (694805) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275253)

Hello, moderation abuse! How the hell can the first ON TOPIC post be redundant?

Re:Can I be the first to say "duh"? (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275293)



Wait for /.'s lawyers to get into the corp email:
michael: 503 again? Taco doesn't know shit from clay.
neal: Mmmm... clay...

Re:Can I be the first to say "duh"? (2, Interesting)

Errtu76 (776778) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275294)

*can*, yes. But is it legally allowed? I know for a fact that in the Netherlands (where i live) it's illegal to 'spy' on your users, and then use that obtained information. Even if we saw an email from one of our users that contains illegal/damaging information we can't do anything as this would be a violation of the user's privacy.

Looting != protected concerted activity under NLRA (3, Informative)

holt_rpi (454352) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275328)

If you're acting with others for the mutual aid and protection of yourself and other coworkers, in the US you're protected by Section 7 of the National Labor Relations Act. A somewhat recent case highlights the NLRB's deference to email as well as other forms of communication:

In one case, the NLRB held that email communication may qualify as "protected concerted activity" under the NLRA. In
Timekeeping Systems, Inc., 323 NLRB 244 (1997) [nlrb.gov] , the NLRB reversed the discharge of an Ohio computer programmer who criticized a new company vacation policy via e-mail. The NLRB concluded that because the employee's email message primarily sought the assistance of other employees in getting the old vacation policy reinstated, it qualified as a form of concerted activity.

The NLRB agreed that the tenor of the employee's message was derisive, but it did not feel the message was offensive enough to lose the protection of the NLRA.


I don't think "hey, let's blow this popsicle stand and take all of its business with it" qualifies as "protected concerted activity" under the act, even if it had occurred within the US NLRB's jurisdiction.

However, don't let this dissuade you from working together to improve your workplace under the protections of Section 7. You should, however, try to avoid using company-owned computer systems for obvious reasons. (They own them, they can read whatever they want on them, you have no expectation of privacy on them.)

Who cares? because... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11274956)

I got first post!

Wait er, i'd better AC just incase my boss views slashdot.

Re:Who cares? because... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11274989)

edit: Second post :

To my employer, screw you.

Re:Who cares? because... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275081)

You're so fired.

Re:Who cares? because... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275214)

I've had enough of this shit, you're all fucking fired.

ffs when will people learn? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11274963)

www.gnupg.org

Re:ffs when will people learn? (1)

grub (11606) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275099)


Is it available for the RIM? That's how these people were nailed.

Re:ffs when will people learn? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275220)

But this RIM insecurity information was available. A lot can be said of due dilligence

Re:ffs when will people learn? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275265)

That doesn't address the GP's suggestion of using gnupg. A simple "Yes" or "No" would suffice.

Silly Rabbits, its too late (5, Funny)

Momoru (837801) | more than 9 years ago | (#11274975)

"A lot of people on the Street are going to have a few sleepless nights, going through loads of e-mail to delete them when they hear about this case"

Although an employer sometimes can go through the emails on your harddrive, I think what the people in this article don't realize is that it sounds like emails are being intercepted at the server level. Who is stupid enough to use company email to conspire against the company? Setup a freakin gmail account and talk about it at home!

Re:Silly Rabbits, its too late (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275018)

Setup a freakin gmail account and talk about it at home!

Yes. But, how many idiots would set up a gmail account and then use their companies computer to access that account?

Re:Silly Rabbits, its too late (1)

gcaseye6677 (694805) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275438)

Does anyone know the legalities of an employer accessing a person's gmail account using a password they sniffed from the network? I know it's perfectly legal for an employer to monitor their own network, but if they use information they obtained to access someone's private email, I would think there might be some legal liability issues here.

Re:In the US..... (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275083)

Investment firms must catologue all emails for compliance and SEC inspection, in fact they must be kept for years. All transmitions including company issued handheld devices are monitored by this automated system at most firms. So if their canadian counterparts have to do similar things this is to be expected and they have a record of all of your emails for years probably.

Companies reading emails (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11274984)

Depends on how clued up the Techies are. Over here, they wouldn't even know I was on Slashdot...

We know.. (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275234)

We know, Dave, that it's you.

Re:Companies reading emails (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275235)

Bob, please report to the IT office for a little confrence on proper computer usage while at the office/HR firing your ass.

Re:Companies reading emails (1)

WormholeFiend (674934) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275239)

Here, the techies must know about slashdot. I have the "trusted site" icon on the frame of my browser... ;)

gratitude (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11274987)

They deserve what they get. How is that for repaying your employer? He writes you a check, puts bread on your table, and you pay him back by using his own property to steal his business. Ridiculous.

Loyalty used to mean something in this country. I guess loyalty has gone the same way as traditional family values and faith in God.

Things are going to have to change, people.

Steve

Re:gratitude (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275097)

They deserve what they get. How is that for repaying your employer? He writes you a check, puts bread on your table, and you pay him back by using his own property to steal his business. Ridiculous.

Nobody talked about "stealing". It's "setting up a competitor". Or do you think competition is not good?
And what about opportunity? Is an employer supposed to stay forever as an employer?

Loyalty used to mean something in this country. I guess loyalty has gone the same way as traditional family values and faith in God.

Sure. Be loyal. If you boss screws up and does all kinds of shit, keep loyal to him. Great way to see things.

Re:gratitude (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275215)

Nobody talked about "stealing". It's "setting up a competitor". Or do you think competition is not good?

It's no more competition when you are fucking someone with his own resources in order to compete with him. You're supposed to work with your bosses on a common project, not stealing them when they're not looking.

Re:gratitude (0, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275116)

Unfortunately, the employers are just as, if not more than, guilty of betraying loyalty. Employees put in 80 hours per week for months on end, "because the company is hurting". Then at the end of the year, the executives take bonuses and fire large portions of the staff.

Re:gratitude (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275121)

RTFA, it was in Canada. American loyalty is still completely intact. /blindly assumes that submitter is in America //knows what happens when you assume.

Re:gratitude (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275133)

I think loyalty disappeared when people who worked hard for a living and gave their company everything got laid off for cost cutting measures and had their pensions mismanaged into nothing.

While the CEO got a several million dollar bonus, natch.

Loyalty is earned. When employers start treating people well and don't lay them off at a moment's notice, then we'll think about being loyal to a company.

I think it's you who may have got your priorities the wrong way around...

Re:gratitude (1)

I8TheWorm (645702) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275148)

Quite honestly, being as developer in Houston, I knew several loyal employees of Enron.

Re:gratitude (1)

BigHungryJoe (737554) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275219)

Did any of those Enron execs ever see any jail time, or are the trials still ongoing?

Incidentally, according to MSNBC this morning, Houston is the fattest city in America.

bhj

Re:gratitude (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275152)

Things have already changed. It used to be that you worked hard and you eventually retired. Then companies started kicking out people when they had a bad year. Then a bad quarter. Now they pitch out people on a whim.

That doesn't justify stealing from an employer. On the other hand, don't talk about loyalty that only goes in one direction.

Re:gratitude (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275159)

a few years ago, some former colleagues of mine left the firm i worked with them at and jumped to another.

in the process, a database got copied to a disk and loaded in the new form. very public case; all over the globe and mail.

it never ceases to amaze me the incredible stupidity that exists on bay street, particularly as it relates to technology. in this case, we were talking about vice president level people who didn't realize that this database dump could be logged and tracked.

greed is good, but not when its paired with stupidity.

Re:gratitude (4, Insightful)

jridley (9305) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275191)

I don't condone what they did, but there's no loyalty on EITHER side. Sure they write you a check, but most employers won't think twice about firing you if it suits their financial interest. If you're not getting loyalty, you tend not to give it back.
I admire loyalty, but there are situations where it's not warranted. Most corporations have chosen not to give or reward loyalty, so they get back in turn.

Re:gratitude (1)

danheskett (178529) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275302)

There is a lot more loyalty than you can imagine.

Laying someone off, especially someone you know, is a vicious nasty thing to do, and to have to do.

A former boss and friend of mine who was in business for himself had to make a choice once: reduce pay and benefits for everyone, or layoff two people and eliminate their positions.

At first he thought, I'll just cut everyone's pay by 10% and increase the deductible on the company insurance plan from $100 to $250. That'll keep everyone in a job, and everyone will share the burden of reduced business.

The employees went apeshit when he called a meeting to discuss this proposal. One of the biggest whiners was one of the people who was to be laid off under "plan B" (which I knew of at the time). What a sad situation. No one would think about taking the "plan A" approach. So the two people got laid off and everyone else got their 100% pay and slightly less sucky health insurance.

Three months later business was down again, another big percent, and the boss completely stopped taking pay checks. Three months from then it was back to the employees to discuss furlows and reduced hours.

Everyone bitched. And then turned on him for his "extravagent" lifestyle. Even after he told of his lack of pay for several months they bitched. One employee noted that the bosses wife was wealthy, she should finance the companies losses until things picked back up again.

Big surprise that he shut the whole thing down and essentially retired a few weeks later.

The bottom line is that loyalty is very real, but it requires a lot of mutal trust and respect. The decision to lay people off is a heart wrenching one, but often it is totally necessary.

There's loyalty, and there's loyalty... (4, Insightful)

rah1420 (234198) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275195)

Loyalty still means something, but it may not be what you think it means.

Look, these people were dumb, that much can be argued. They were dumb for using a monitored service to do this, and they were dumb for (ostensibly) stealing their company's resources for the purpose of setting up a competitor.

However, you need to decouple this from the loyalty argument. The loyalty you need to have is not to your company any more. Are they loyal to you if business turns sour and they have to start slashing the payroll? Hell no. The corporate sinecure is dead. "Ma" Bell doesn't evince the image of a benevolent mother any more.

The kind of loyalty you should have is to your projects, to your work, to you as an individual and to your Rolodex (or electronic equivalent.)

If you live every day as if you might be laid off, working on projects that will escalate your worth and making sure that lots and lots of people know what kind of value you contribute, then you'll be better off; your customers (those who are the beneficiaries of your projects) will be better off, and your company will be better off.

And if things should turn sour, then you shrug your shoulders, get your Rolodex out and start calling.

So instead of "Logo Loyalty" you should cultivate "Rolodex Loyalty" (thanks, Tom Peters. [tompeters.com] )

Re:There's loyalty, and there's loyalty... (1)

GoofyBoy (44399) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275427)

Nice. Thank you.

Loyalty != Blind slavery to a corporation.

Re:gratitude (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275217)

Your comments expose your prejudices.

Yes, traditional family values and faith in gods have changed. That's a GOOD thing, in many ways. Tolerance and ecumenicism are good things.

In many ways, employer-employee loyalty has changed too. Neither feels much to the other nowadays, and employees who act loyally rather than rationally are often (though not always) being naive.

Come to think of it, rational thinking is generally good when considering gods and family as well.

These people were guilty of being stupid. That's all.

Re:gratitude (4, Funny)

XMyth (266414) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275242)

Yea, damn Canadians. At least loyalty still means something in America.

Re:gratitude (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275276)

RIIIIIIIGHT.... Cause corps never, ever, ever repay their employers with layoffs, firings and various mass distruptions? I work with people for CIBC that have not received a pay increase for over 5 years. Why? Wage freeze. Now, our "bonus" has become an Annual Incentive Plan, which is PART of your salary expectation when you get hired.

Gratitude, like respect, is earned on both sides.

Re:gratitude (1)

jidar (83795) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275292)

Uh.. coporations through loyalty out first and established the precedent of dog-eat-dog years ago. Now it goes two ways.

Re:gratitude (1)

potus98 (741836) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275316)


I agree that it's pretty lame to use a company's resources to steal their business, but I've never understood the notion of deep company loyalty. True, a company may "write me a check" but the company does NOT "put bread on my table", I do. The check was in exchange for the services I provided -nothing more, nothing less. Don't get all sentimental about company loyalty. It's a business. When times get tough, you might get a pink slip just as fast as the next guy.

Loyalty does mean something nowadays, it's just that it's often grossly mis-placed. People apply loyalty to their employer, but not to their family. They apply loyalty to a brand of drink or jeans, but not to their community. Loyalty abounds, it's just used in silly ways.

Re:gratitude (1)

Errtu76 (776778) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275324)

Funny. Last time i posted a similar comment it was modded offtopic/troll. Oh, but that was with EA, and i guess it's okay then ...

Re:gratitude (2, Insightful)

Sophrosyne (630428) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275361)

...what ever happened to that tradition where men would get married to women, then "go out for milk" to sleep with other men.
Or the traditional family value of basically owning your wife and children... People miss "teaching others lessons" in the family.
If you pull back that blind nostalgia those traditional family values are no different than the ethics of Victorian England.... most of the time they were all a facade.
As intelligent people we should challenge tradition instead of complacently accepting that as good.

Re:gratitude (4, Insightful)

silverbax (452214) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275377)

"I guess loyalty has gone the same way as traditional family values and faith in God."

Ahem.

Over 80% of the nation's population is Christian.
The are blue laws to prevent the sale of alcoholic beverages during certain days (Sunday) or completely in roughly 80% of the United States.

There are over one hundred cable channels nationwide devoted entirely to Christian programming.

Nearly very company in the U.S. is closed on Christmas.

"In God We Trust" is printed on all U.S. money.

And yet, every day someone claims religious persecution of the Christian religion.

Re:gratitude (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275385)

First off, employers (but there are exceptions) are the parasites that feed off the folks with the skill. The employer does not write the check and put bread on the table. What earns me my pay check and feeds my family is the years I've spent in college and working. The knowledge I have acquired researching my own interests. These skills is what an "employer" needs to survive. This is what he pays me for. He gives me nothing. He pays me to do something he can't. He pays be for services which I provide him, services that he needs to put bread on his own table. I provide him those services for a small fee and allow him to feed off me. Don't every forget that.

Re:gratitude (2, Interesting)

maxpublic (450413) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275411)

Bullshit. These people were idiots for using company resources to talk about setting up their own firm, but loyalty of any kind doesn't enter into the equation. Capitalism relies on the exchange of goods and services, in this case labor for pay - NOT some stupid, pathetic "company uber alles!" mindset.

Businesses pay me for my skills. They don't get my loyalty as a freebie on top of that. Companies aren't nations, aren't friends, aren't family, and they sure as hell don't deserve my devotion as a matter of course. If this is a problem for some people, they can haul their anti-capitalist asses off to some fascist shit-hole that's more to their liking.

Max

No pity, no new violation (5, Insightful)

dreamt (14798) | more than 9 years ago | (#11274993)

I'm sorry, but I feel no pity for people being caught this way. Its very clear when you start working somewhere that the computers you use are the property of the employer, and you should expect no privacy from these machines. They used company owned BlackBerries because they thought it would be secret (implying that they knew other company computers were not). If you use something company owned because you think it is secure, while other company propery is not secure, it just shows you dumb enough to be caught. If they were so concerned about their privacy, they should not have used any company property.

Umm... how is this YRO? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275045)

I thought it was already pretty clear that if you work for someone and use their messaging systems, whatever you right is fair game for them?

Re:No pity, no new violation (1)

grub (11606) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275119)


Yup, if the employer is paying for the email service then the employer can go through your email. Hopefully the ship-jumpers greed will cost themselves "tons of moula". Like the old saying goes "dogs don't shit where they eat."

Another question, (1)

NoTheory (580275) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275000)

You'd think somebody trying to commit corporate espionage would be smarter wouldn't you? I mean, communication is a two party interaction, you'd think the coporation on the receiving end would provide a slightly more secure method for communication, if they were looking for secrecy :p

Re:Another question, (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275050)

You'd think a group of people with enough assets to set up an investment banking firm could afford their own set of blackberries.

Re:Another question, (2, Funny)

lucabrasi999 (585141) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275052)

You'd think somebody trying to commit corporate espionage would be smarter wouldn't you?

You would, but these folks were EXECUTIVES. Just by the nature of their job, they are pre-disposed to idiocy.

Re:The should rename (1)

atomicbirdsong (789926) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275387)

The Darwin awards after these people. I just finished working on a small investigation of some county employees in a North East state who were doing some funky business, and man, they said just the most damning things in regular email! Things like, "The systems has flaws, and we circumvent it all the time." No joke. They do get what they deserve. Using a black-berry?! Jesus!

encryption (1)

Apreche (239272) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275002)

Thunderbird + Enigmail
gaim + gaim-encryption
or use gpg or equivalent.

If you're sending messages that could be harmful to yourself unencryptedly, its your own fault. Especially if its at work and you know they are spying on you.

Conspiring to kill the fucktard who posted this (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275006)

Think twice before posting shit Above Average Nerds on fucking slashdot already know!

OMFG (2, Funny)

Bif Powell (726774) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275007)

Can we please add 'kerfuffle' to the profanity filter. I don't find it profane, but I would prefer to see !#%$@#$#!@ instead.

Well the guy is a moron (1)

hsmith (818216) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275012)

If i am sending anything personal I do it through my webmail that has SSL, why would I want my employer knowing what I am saying on off business or to my g/f?

basic fact is, he deserved to be caught for being a moron.

Re:Well the guy is a moron (1)

guillebot (541194) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275176)

This can be seen easily using a transparent proxy and man in the middle techniques.

Re:Well the guy is a moron (1)

hattmoward (695554) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275262)

Huh? Maybe, but not if he has a certificate from a major CA or a self-signed cert whose thumbprint is known on that server. If he set up webmail and SSL, I hope he has enough clue to know how those attacks can be avoided.

I'm a knee-jerk privacy freak, BUT (3, Insightful)

Lonesome Squash (676652) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275020)

the company did right here. If they DIDN'T record all employee communication, the regulators (at least those we deal with in the US) would have demanded that they do so. Not only that, but they would be leaving themselves open to customer and shareholder lawsuits. I'm sure that somewhere in the mammoth stack of forms anyone working in securities must sign when they're hired on was one saying, "No facility is provided for private electronic communication."

The really shameful thing (aside from working on company time to screw your employer) is that these people didn't know this already. Looking at the list of those being sued, I see IT people who should have known better. Perhaps the company would have punished them more effectively by letting them go form their own company without understanding the basics of ethics, law (including allegedly trying to steal customer databases), or security.

Karma (1)

Albinofrenchy (844079) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275028)

"Many of the e-mails revealed in the CIBC court documents offer an embarrassing portrait of greed and corporate rebellion, with executives boasting about the "tons of moula" they would make by moving to Genuity.

I guess it turns out, greed and stupidity don't mix.

Re:Karma (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275090)

Well can you blame them for trying?

If you're an executive, and you get any money before you get caught for doing this sort of thing, you do get to keep most of it.

Greed and stupidity only crap out if you're poor, or you don't make it Phase 3.

Conspiracy of Idiots (1)

White Roses (211207) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275059)

What kind of moron sends questionable e-mails relating to plans to start a competing company through his employer's e-mail server!? You might as well print your entire plan and leave it sitting on the personal printer of the C*O. There are hundreds of free online e-mail systems, and GMail even allows connections over https, which makes the communication between the browser and the mail server less prone to snooping. Better yet, don't even do it from work! It's just . . . astounding . . . how stupid some people are.

Re:Conspiracy of Idiots (1)

Spangston (797206) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275273)

Or they could have just faxed it around like the CIBC was doing, to random numbers, with customer info.

Idiots**2 (5, Interesting)

Deep Fried Geekboy (807607) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275061)

These people are in charge of your money, folks.

They are idiots for two reasons.

First, because they clearly acted unethically, which is the really big idiocy. I run my own company and rule number one is due diligence. I am not going to screw myself by doing something that could bite me in the ass further down the line.

It's astonishing how many investment guys simply don't get this. I have literally had my own investment guy sit there and tell me that a particular investment 'cannot lose', in the presence of his lawyer -- who looked very uncomfortable and was forced to intervene by saying "Look, you cannot say that".

Second, anyone who uses unencrypted email on a server they do no control, ESPECIALLY if it belongs to someone they are screwing, deserves to spend the rest of their productive years flipping burgers, or possibly stamping licence plates.

They're idiots for being unethical? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275193)

How so? Even breaking major laws seems to pay pretty good. Michael Milken didn't die in prison, he's not living in a card board box.

The only one who's significantly lost out recently is Martha Stewart who's down, aww heck, let's call it an even billion.

Lying, cheating on taxes, outright stealing are par for the course now. Hell, they can't even take your multi-million dollar mansion away from you. The corruption and graft are the harvest of sophistry that exists everywhere.

Re:Idiots**2 (1)

Anne_Nonymous (313852) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275252)

This is a great screening technique for employing finance guys. Just ask "Can I lose money in this?". If they say "No", then don't hire them. The guy who lays out *all* the risks is the guy to hire. Smae ditto for network security employees.

Re:Idiots**2 (1)

rbolkey (74093) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275267)

I have literally had my own investment guy sit there and tell me that a particular investment 'cannot lose', in the presence of his lawyer

Investment bankers are salesmen, akin to car dealers. If unable to avoid them, they should be handled with care and suspicion.

You are all Masters of the Obvious! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275063)

Congratulate yourself you self-centered comment-addicted scum-sucking slashdot nerd for posting shit everyone already knows!

Pardon my French... (2, Funny)

dmuth (14143) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275067)

...but what the hell is a "kerfuffle"?

you don't want to know... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275111)

From Merrian-Webster Online...

Etymology: alteration of earfuffle, from Scots ear- (probably from Scottish Gaelic cearr "to place one's penis", awkward) + fuffle to "into another's ear".

Re:you don't want to know... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275266)

I thought it was more like ruckus: a loud painful bowel movement?

Re:you don't want to know... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275308)

woah, slow down there cowboy..

what about phone conversation? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275068)

my prior employer had a system to track call destinations and keep tabs on long-D. i think they had the ability to log phone conversations too... or was I just trippin'?

Moula? (2, Funny)

jbrw (520) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275163)

Anyone who refers to money as moula is not getting their hands on my moula.

Re:Moula? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275271)

i refer to my money as my "sexpince".

Blackberry SMIME (1)

PsyKotyk4Real (820293) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275182)

Blackberrys do support SMIME... you just have to buy the $10000 BES (BlackBerry Exhange Server) and commit to using yukky MS exhange.

"Kerfuffle" is all fine and good (5, Funny)

skyshock21 (764958) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275185)

... but when you start using RIM and job in the same story, that's when it starts setting off my company's content filters.

Re:"Kerfuffle" is all fine and good (1)

AndroidCat (229562) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275350)

Dinna fash yersel ower muckle.

Re:"Kerfuffle" is all fine and good (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275364)

good job on training the company's web-filters.

Re:"Kerfuffle" is all fine and good (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275376)

Obligatory South Park quote:

Cartman's Mom "Oh, a Rim Job is when you put your legs behind your head and someone licks your ass!"

For this very same reason (1)

InodoroPereyra (514794) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275189)

It is for this very same reason that people in financial institutions are not allowed to use most internet ports, login to web-mail services, etc.

Now, you really have to be an ass if you try to fsck with the hand that's feeding you. And we are talking about people making tons of money anyways !

decent crypto, properly used (2, Insightful)

Frogg (27033) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275237)

sorry, but if i was trying to pull a fast one on my current place of employment (or otherwise rip someone off, or carry out some kind of espionage), i'd be a total fool to think any existing comms channels were secure -- /without/ having put in my own layer of encryption, to which only i have the key/passphrase.

install gpg, or worse than nothing, use s/mime - but if you need to ensure privacy, you need to have (put) your own privacy layer in place.

(it's no good hoping and relying on magic pixies)

Lesson in stupidity (2, Insightful)

Matey-O (518004) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275248)

Rule #0: If you're planning on screwing over your employer (an ethical conundrum all by itself), try not to use the employers resources to do so.

That means: keep the bits off their infrastructure. ALL of it.

ssh and silc via blackberry (2, Interesting)

gmailflows (787787) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275249)

It is quite silly to think that Email is secure in today's day and age, however what none of these bankers considered was using ssh [idokorro.com] and then say something like silc [silcnet.org] to have a secure conversation. Most large institutions with RIM have the BES and thus using ssh is an option. which is certainly more secure than email, but is it totally secure? Or still prone to eavesdropping?

Encrypt it. (1)

holzp (87423) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275278)

I encrypt my mails in ROT-26.

Short and sweet (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275287)

People used to think I was an idiot IT schlep because of my harsh IT Security policies. Now they just think I'm a dick after 1 incident, and watch what they do because they know I'm watching:

Putting a bumper sticker on my car (from thinkgeek) that reads: "I READ YOUR EMAIL"

All that cutesy forwarded forwarded forwarded forwarded crap stopped in its tracks. Problem solved. What they don't know, however, is that every email sent and received is archived for legal reasons, per the Big Boss' instructions.

That said, if you're going to go behind your employer's back, do it from home, not from within the company, and especially not from company issued equipment. Common sense, really.

Just like my workplace. (2, Insightful)

rayd75 (258138) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275290)

To use a cliché, I'd be rich if I had a nickel for every time I've seen an employee frantically clear his or her browser cache or send an email then delete it from the sent items folder. Surprise! The device on your desktop is not the center of the universe! Maybe abiding by policies and staying away from any shady dealings is a better way to cover your ass.

Just desserts (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11275321)

They shouldn't be RIMming on company time...

Stupid is as stupid does (1)

spotteddog (234814) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275339)



(Really all there is to say)

This happened to my old ex-boss! (2, Interesting)

Sethseekstruth (599784) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275353)

This exact thing, getting caught in a conspiracy to leave the company, happened to my boss and a coworker. I was working away, and they were both told to clear out thier desks, and I was then called into the HR office. I was told that my boss and co-worker sent emails back and forth on company machines that said things like "we are going to rip these morons off so bad". They actually discussed inviting me and a secrty. to join the company they were going to start up, but decided to not take because I would not go along. They also defraued the compny by faking orders and ended up in criminal cout last I heard. the fired boss was the one who hired me, and the atmosphere was poisioned and I eneded up getting canned myself a few months later, but with a nice severance package.

Not to be trusted (2, Interesting)

canuck57 (662392) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275356)

In reading the replies to this post it is clear there are two camps. One which says they were stupid to get caught and the other that has no pity.

Remember, these turncoats gladly accepted a pay cheque to be a representative of their company. Their actions could cause the company to lay off people, perhaps you if it causes financial harm.

I for one would not look forward to calling one of these turncoats a friend. It would only be a mater of time before they framed me for their own gain.

Let these turkeys fry

PGP is the way to go (1)

ambrosine10 (747895) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275362)

Heh. Most people don't know how email works at all - they somehow think their password protects people from snooping in.

Speaking of which, GnuPG [gnupg.org] is at 1.4.0 now. For Windows users, GPGShell [jumaros.de] is a good (closed-source) frontend for it.

Are Slashbots Commies? (1)

Migraineman (632203) | more than 9 years ago | (#11275436)

You post information on a public forum? without IP protection? without compensation?

Damned commies ...
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