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Mitch Kapor Warns Against Firefox Gloating

CowboyNeal posted more than 9 years ago | from the he-says-other-stuff-too dept.

Mozilla 257

An anonymous reader writes "Mitch Kapor, Lotus co-founder and president and chair of the Open Source Applications Foundation, says open-source advocates should be relatively cautious and avoid making claims and predictions despite the huge success of Firefox. He also briefly touches on Chandler in a ZDNet interview. Chandler is OSAF's personal information manager which will offer e-mail, calendaring, address and task management. The goal for Chandler, Kapor says, is to make it as successful and popular as Firefox."

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first post? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11354685)

almost? i bet i'm the 299th post..

Re:first post? (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11354716)

I like Windows XP Home Edition.

It is the most powerful operating-system for Pee Cees. It looks not as gay as Mac OS X by Steve B10 Jobs and has 1,0000,0000 times more softwares that the Linus-operating-system.

Plus, it comes with every Pee Cee for free. People who have grown acusstomt to paying RatHat 699 $$$ or more can hardly beleive this when I consult them with my proffesional Internet- and Network-Service-Center-Bureau.

Wehn I have a new customer, I take him to the back-room to show him the "alternative" to XP Home, which is Suse Linux 9.0.
I have set-up an old Pentium 133Hz and a small monochrome monitor to show teh customer what Linux looks and feels like.

I have it set-up so it runs a fullscreen-Flash-splash-screen on the KDE3.3beta-desktop. It takes 13 min until the mouse cursor responds.

The customer will them make a sound like: "BAH!"

Then I tell them: "See, this is how it is if we let the communists make software."
Then we have a good laugh, wich is psycologicallish valuable for the customer-relatively.

I always tell them:
"Windows XP Home Edition is all you can do to embiggen the producationality of your human resourcers and empower to leverage the outcome-bottomlime of your stickholder ... plus even more!"

My customers usually are like: "OMG!"

You should really try it one day; it has a very nice light-reddish color theme to hit your tastes.

Thank you!

No Gloating?!? (3, Funny)

drsmack1 (698392) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354688)

What, they want to take the joy out of life? What about all past gloating; surely there is enough of that - enough to more than make up for any future gloating deficit.

Re:No Gloating?!? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11354755)

I doubt Firefox is going to "fizzle" out. I think the only thing that the developers need to keep an eye on is security.

As Firefox becomes more popular it is going to become a bigger target for exploits. I think it has really yet to be seen how secure Firefox is and how quickly fixes will be released.

I know of several "exploits" that at the very least crash FF 1.0, so it isn't the be-all end-all of browsers quite yet. It is however the best browser out there right now, in my opinion.

Just my 2 cents.

Re:No Gloating?!? (2, Insightful)

Refrozen (833543) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355346)

Firefox will not fizzle out as long as the developers keep on their toes and change. If you do not innovate you lose, we are in the technology world now, innovation is everything, see Google? Look how fast they became successful, and for what? Innovation. Microsoft, same thing: Innovation.

The FF devs need to balance innovation with security (something, I must say, Google does perfectly and Microsoft fails at) because that is Firefox's strong promotional point: Security, and because innovation is simply key to the tech world.

All I can say is, keep on promoting Firefox, donate, support them, and most of all, REPORT BUGS... Granted, they get a sh*t load of bug reports, so, only report the good/not already reported ones.

Re:No Gloating?!? (1)

Tackhead (54550) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354772)

> What, they want to take the joy out of life? What about all past gloating; surely there is enough of that - enough to more than make up for any future gloating deficit.

Yeah. I mean, if we can't gloat, how are we supposed to talk about Firefox/Thunderbird's UI versus that of Bloatus notes. Unless Mitch Kapor's around.

There's a joke in there somewhere, and if I could only get goddamn window focus back from this rogue application, I'd type it up and send it to someone. And if they were using the same email client as I was, they could see my witty one-liner buried between several dozen kilobytes of "stationery" attachments in .BMP format.

Not that I'd want to gloat or anything, Mitch.

Re:No Gloating?!? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11354855)

Yes, I'm gloating intolerant.

But, but, but... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11354694)

...Slashdot so wants to.

Thanks for the advice... (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11354696)

Mitch Kapor, Lotus co-founder ... says open-source advocates should be relatively cautious and avoid making claims and predictions

This from the guy who helped bring us Lotus Notes? Perhaps YOU should be more cautious about ignoring the requests of your user base.

/me hits F9 to refresh

Re:Thanks for the advice... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11354828)

Ahh, Notes. The longest-running (and I don't mean stable) Windows 3.1 application in history.

Re:Thanks for the advice... (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355085)

Check your history: Actually, Kapor left Lotus when they failed to realise the full potential of his "Agenda" PIM. Agenda was too powerful and general for the people lotus wanted to sell to (PHBs), and Lotus released "Notes" instead.

Agenda was personal information management the way it was meant to be (except for clunky DOS textual GUI interface) - GMail's interface is clearly influenced by it, for example.

irony? (4, Interesting)

comwiz56 (447651) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354704)

Oh the irony:

He says not to gloat about firefox's success, then he uses it is a standard he wants to meet.

Re:irony? (5, Insightful)

Stevyn (691306) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354775)

That's not necessarily gloating, just being proud of your accomplishments. He also said how there is no guarantee that Firefox will increase in popularity. I think he's just being "cautiously optimistic" as people like to say now.

Re:irony? (1)

gonzo-wireless (847083) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354869)

This is a classic tactic. He wants to meet the Firefox standard, so, he plays the standard down. Now "meeting the standard" has become considerably easier. Not only that, but, by limiting the hype over firefox, there may be room left for his own ideas.

Genius tactics.

Re:irony? (2, Informative)

X43B (577258) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354916)

"by limiting the hype over firefox, there may be room left for his own ideas" Uhh...since he is the chairman of the Mozilla Foundation board what makes you think his own ideas aren't in Firefox? Chandler is not another browser.

Re:irony? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11354939)

He says not to gloat about firefox's success, then he uses it is a standard he wants to meet.

Should you gloat about winning the lottery? No.
Would I like to win the lottery? Yes.

Re:irony? (2, Insightful)

Antonymous Flower (848759) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354966)

As long as this project doesn't settle for a 'new standard,' I say gloat away. Keep firefox worth gloating about by continuing commitment to openness, security and functionality. Make THAT the standard.

Re:irony? (1)

fm6 (162816) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355074)

That's "ironic" only if you insist that Firefox is total failure or a total success. Nothing's like that in the real world.

In any case, Kapor isn't criticising FireFox. He's just cautioning against the surreal optimism that always seems to surround open source projects.

hmmm (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11354711)

1. Fifth post?
2. I for one welcome our new Internet overlords??
3. ????
4. Profit!!!

wow, that is saying a lot (0, Troll)

kLaNk (82409) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354712)

The goal for Chandler, Kapor says, is to make it as successful and popular as Firefox

Didn't read the article, but seriously, how is this worth mentioning? Who wouldn't want to start a project that was as popular as Firefox?

Re:wow, that is saying a lot (4, Interesting)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354756)

Our product (code-named "Chandler" after the great master of Information Retreival, Chandler Bing) is a Personal Information Manager (PIM) intended for use in everyday information and communication tasks

What's not to like?

Re:wow, that is saying a lot (1)

syrinje (781614) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355066)

Now, thats a half-way decent troll ; luckily I pretty much know the Friends seasons backwards and couln't think of a single instance involving Chandler and Information retrieval.

The Chandler PIM is named after one of the all-time great detective novelists - Raymond Chandler. Check out the OSAF site [osafoundation.org].

Re:wow, that is saying a lot (1)

standsolid (619377) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355144)

For moderators who don't like the TV show, Friends:
Besides the poorly-written, long-running, overly-syndicated, abomination of a TV show that features a self-serving, insecure, superficial, lazy male lead character who's biggest claim to fame is a simple on-liner of, "Could I be any more [fill in the blank]?"
Nothing. There is nothing else not to like.

And for the moderators who do like the TV show, Friends:
Could "Chandler" be anymore of a rip-off of Outlook?

Re:wow, that is saying a lot (2, Interesting)

Gherald (682277) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354790)

> >The goal for Chandler, Kapor says, is to make it as successful and popular as Firefox
> Didn't read the article, but seriously, how is this worth mentioning? Who wouldn't want to start a project that was as popular as Firefox?
Perhaps some would rather their product be as "unsuccessful and unpopular" as Internet Explorer? ;)

Re:wow, that is saying a lot (1)

kLaNk (82409) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354893)

The goal for Chandler, Kapor says, is to make it as successful and popular as Firefox

So this story could make one think.

Great, somebody modded me a troll. Honestly, another thing to whine about! (And I don't need help finding things to whine about)

Re:wow, that is saying a lot (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355025)

Have you looked at your posting history lately? You are a troll. And you're not even a half decent one, most moderators don't even pay attention to your bullshit. I guess that would make you an ineffective troll, or less than useless by Slashdot standards.

Chandler (0, Flamebait)

grub (11606) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354721)


If it doesn't integrate with Exchange it will die. Sad but true.

Re:Chandler (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11354771)

I don't integrate and I still lUGH!*)?=kl#o;

Re:Chandler (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11354809)

Chandler? It'd rather us sol.exe to check my e-mail.

No claims and predictions about OSS? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11354722)

Where am I again?

Firefox? bleh. (2, Interesting)

Gherald (682277) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354730)

I want his opinion on Thunderbird-Sunbird [mozilla.org] integration.

Re:Firefox? bleh. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11354759)

I want his opinion on Thunderbird-Sunbird integration.

Does it run on Lotus Notes?

Sincerely,
Mitch Kapor

Re:Firefox? bleh. (1)

marvin2k (685952) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354795)

I think you really want to link to project Lightning [mozilla.org]. That's the one that brings Sunbird and Thunderbird together.

Re:Firefox? bleh. (1)

Gherald (682277) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354864)

Right, but everyone already knows Thunderbird is a killer email client. Sunbird is much more obscure by contrast.

Re:Firefox? bleh. (-1, Offtopic)

kaustik (574490) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354915)

On a whim, I checked out the link in your sig. The first article reads:
Possible Age Related Hearing Loss Abatement Breakthrough

I think you should re-phrase it: "Slashdot for old fogies. What was I typing?"

Re:Firefox? bleh. (1)

lachlan76 (770870) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355222)

It's a fairly good email client. I still prefer Evolution though.

What we need is a Windows port, that way more people are going to get a chance to try it.

HOWTO: Free Vaporware Product Ad On Slashdot (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11354731)

Jeez, and you thought the endless dupes was bad! Now we are getting ads for vaporware products masquerading as news items by simply throwing in some open source flamebait in the title and description.

Is it really gloating (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11354735)

when the person is posting from Internet Explorer on ME?

Oh My (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11354737)

My anus flutters like a JEALOUS SELF PROMOTING butterfly!

Firefox rules, fuck the nay sayers.

Be careful... (2, Insightful)

sidepocket (817256) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354744)

I think the main thing Firefox has to worry about is bloating itself up too big like Opera did. I remember when Opera was nice and streamlined, now it's too bloated for its own good.

Re:Be careful... (1)

Rits (453723) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355217)

I'll bite... Opera has never been bloated bytewise, it is still significantly smaller than Firefox for example. The Opera 7.2 release might be considered to be the culmination of 'feature' bloat. After that, Opera didn't stop adding features, but the interface cleanup in 7.5 and now 8beta show that the package can be streamlined and goodlooking while it still offers lots of features out of the box.

Re:Be careful... (4, Interesting)

jp10558 (748604) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355284)

Well, I keep seeing people claim Opera is bloated, but how are you measuring bloat?

I generally think of bloated applications based on a few criteria:

1) Big download/space takes up: Is Opera a big download?

No, it's 3.5MB, including a flash plugin. FF is 4.7MB at my last check.

2) Slow to use: Is Opera slow?

No, it's far faster than IE, and at worst the same speed as FireFox on my machine.

3) Memory use: Does Opera use a lot of memory?

Not in the release versions on my machine...

Opera uses on average 22MB of RAM - not much on modern desktop machines, and I can of course turn off the "Use all available RAM" setting.

4) Has so many features they get in the way: Does Opera have so many features they get in the way?

Maybe. The level of customization lets me pare Opera 7.54 down to the way 5.12 looked, just a browser.

For others however, they might use some of the features I don't, or all.

The issue here is that the features don't get in the way - you can quickly turn them off, or move them around.

Frankly, #4 is all I can figure people mean when they refer to Opera as bloated, and it's really a misleading statement. It's at least as easy to remove things from Opera's interface as it is to find, download and install extensions to FireFox.

Good Luck (5, Funny)

krough (771131) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354776)

"The goal for Chandler, Kapor says, is to make it as successful and popular as Firefox."

It's healthy to have goals.

Re:Good Luck (4, Insightful)

dbc001 (541033) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354940)

Popularity is absolutely the wrong goal. How about Effectiveness and small footprint? How about Easy-to-use without intrusive "value-added" bloat? How about standards compliance and a powerful, open plugin interface? Any of those would make great goals. But popularity? I sincerely hope that popularity isn't the primary goal of most open-source projects.

Re:Good Luck (2, Interesting)

amerinese (685318) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355271)

But um, don't you think that if this is an open-source project that has plenty of proprietary competition, that a sign of being easy to us and all those other metrics you mentioned would be popularity? I mean, easy-to-use is pretty subjective. Easy-to-use such that lots of people would bother downloading and adopting Chandler is real and measurable.

Let's take a step off that pedestal. Sure, sophisticated minorities may choose better products some of the time, and monopolies can severely limit the choices that most people can make. But all the more, if they slay Outlook/Exchange the way that Firefox has started to really gain more than marginal acceptance against Internet Explorer, isn't that evidence that most people really do find Chandler to be better?

Mitch Kapor is basically running a charity with the fortune he's made. He wants to help as many people, create a useful product for as many people, as he can. Do you think the American Redcross sits around and says, oh boy, we sure do have really good accounting procedures, our transparency is good, and we have top notch volunteers and says to hell with how many people we're actually helping?

pot, kettle? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11354806)

relatively cautious and avoid making claims and predictions .... The goal for Chandler, Kapor says, is to make it as successful and popular as Firefox.

Perhaps Mitch should be cautious about making such extravagant goals for Chandler, at least until he has a significant fraction of Firefox's installed base.

Sour Grapes but with a cautionary note (3, Insightful)

ashitaka (27544) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354824)

He owned the spreadsheet market and saw it lost to Microsoft through no fault of his own. (He'd left Lotus by then)

However, he was never able to experience the same success. No matter how much hype and support his subsequent projects had, they never panned out in the long run.

FireFox could very much be the same thing. It's a long way from 2% market share to 98%.

Re:Sour Grapes but with a cautionary note (4, Interesting)

gad_zuki! (70830) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354944)

>It's a long way from 2% market share to 98%.

I'd say the longest way is from 2% to 10% or 15%. At that point its not "weird software I never heard of" if 1 in 10 people are using it. Right now its still "well, my brother in law recommened it and I installed it, but havent used it much" stage in general, but it is doing a great job of infiltrating MS/IE only shops. The university I work for has it on all their lab computers in the CS departments, I see the laziest professors use it or even recommend it, etc. This was certainly not the case last semester.

Like the old saying goes - your first million dollars is always the hardest.

Roght now things are looking up for a healthy IT market. The Mac Mini is predicted to bring a lot of windows users over to the mac side, people understand the concept that the browser is not the "internet" and you can run other browsers, etc.

Dont get me wrong, the MS monopoly is still incredibly strong, but if they lose enough marketshare then it will be a win for standards and competitors will have a better chance of delivering better and more innovative software. It will also get people thinking that they dont have to use office or outlook and just like IE there are alternatives. Viva competition.

Re:Sour Grapes but with a cautionary note (1)

Colonel Angus (752172) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354962)

No one expects 98% market share.

I would be elated to see it hit 20%. A respectable percentage of marketshare that would force web designers/developers to acknowledge its existence and to code for cross-browser compatibility.

Anything over whatever that critical mass percentage may be is just gravy.

Re:Sour Grapes but with a cautionary note (1)

CrackHappy (625183) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355348)

I'm a web developer, and have been forced to use certain Microsoft technologies simply because of our 100% Windows shop.

ALL of the stuff I code I attempt to standardize to HTML 4.0, XSLT 1.1, XML 1.0, etc. The nice part about it is that I don't have to do much to make it cross-platform, just mess about with the client-side JS that gets sent over, as all the transformation and real crunching happen server side.

It sucks having to deal with IE sometimes though, as some pretty standard JS stuff breaks in IE. As I use Firefox as my development broswer, I'm always sure it works well there.

From my experience, it is overall easier to code for FireFox compatibility, as you really don't have to do anything to make it work, as long as you KISS.

Re:Sour Grapes but with a cautionary note (2, Insightful)

Jeff DeMaagd (2015) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355001)

I don't want anything to have 98% market share. I'd say a split between four major browsers, hovering around 25% each would do the most good. Hopefully they would all be standards compliant and worth supporting and should a serious vulnerability be discovered, there are three alternatives to use while a patch is made.

Re:Sour Grapes but with a cautionary note (1)

lachlan76 (770870) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355008)

It's a long way from 2% market share to 98%.

I don't really want it to have 98% marketshare. It would be better for security and web standards if there was an even split between Gecko, KHTML, and MSHTML.

Re:Sour Grapes but with a cautionary note (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355054)

Thank you. It's not that we want Firefox to win, it's that we want WEB STANDARDS to win. If IE adopted better support for CSS I wouldn't be as against it. Yeah, it would still suck, but at least it would affect us web developers.

GoC site (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355220)

It's a long way from 2% market share to 98%.

I'm doing stats for a quite busy Canadian government site, (50,000 "unique" visitors per day) and last month, 5.67% were using Mozilla. (I know... more than just Firefox, but most of them are Firefox users) IE was 86.58%.

I agree. (-1, Flamebait)

wviperw (706068) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354825)

I think I agree. Firefox is great, but it is not like it is the Second Coming (tm).

For instance, my reasons for not switching to Firefox have dwindled down to the following:

1) Firefox doesn't allow me to open multiple browser windows by using a bound keyboard shortcut (CTRL+ALT+E) (yes I know about CTRL+T..)
2) Just as MSIE has the annoying, hard-to-get-rid-of "Links" folder in its Favorites menu, Firefox has its own required "Bookmark" directory which it will not let you delete.
3) Firefox still renders many pages oddly. Yes, I know this is because a lot of web pages have been developed with MSIE's bugs in mind. Regardless, it is still annoying.
4) I've got buttons on my Logitech keyboard that are bound to launch certain websites. However, when I make Firefox my default browser and I try to use these buttons nothing happens. I know this is related to how IE is intertwined with Windows, but still, it is another reason why I am sticking with IE for now.

Re:I agree. (1)

Vaevictis666 (680137) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354892)

1) Try CTRL+N. You know, just like every other windows app out there.

2) I'll give you that one. Live with it. Turn off the bookmarks toolbar, rename the folder, and just pretend it's a normal subfolder of root. If you don't have enough bookmarks to require some sort of organization, I call this a moot point.

3) True. Also unfortunate. I've learned to cope - I know of a grand total of 2 websites I need to use IE on. And one of them is just for a bit of extra functionality, the brunt of it works fine in Firefox.

4) Odd... Can you cange the buttons to launch a program instead of a website? If so just have them launch Firefox with the website as an argument.

Re:I agree. (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11354895)

1. CTRL+N opens new windows.
2. That's for the Bookmarks Bar.
3. Use web standards.
4. Logitech's drivers suck. Please use the open source drivers. If none exist, write some and use those.

Re:I agree. (1)

reverius (471142) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354898)

1) what do you mean? I can open a new window in Firefox at any time by pressing CTRL-N. is that not what you're referring to?

2) if you're on IE now, that's not a reason not to switch, since they're the same. understandable, though, if you use Opera or something else that isn't so clumsy with it's bookmarks.

3) not any more oddly than Opera or Safari, in my experience. i'd say it's the best of any non-IE browser. i only come across one site every few months that can't be browsed with firefox, and never anything essential... some look a bit off, but the web was never about presentation, just information. if you like presentation, ask people to design websites in flash (*shudder*) and use the flash plugin on firefox...

4) I see you do use IE. that makes 2 a moot point. it's not a reason to switch, but like i said, it's not a reason not to.

Re:I agree. (1)

MHobbit (830388) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354905)

I use a Logitech Cordless MX Duo set w/keyboard and mouse, and I bounded the iTouch button (I'll soon set it as the "My Home" one) to open FireFox and it works perfectly everytime. However if you're talking about one of the standard keyboards with the small rubber buttons near the top, it should be easy to change by finding the keyboard software that came with your vanilla computer. I agree that we shouldn't gloat about FireFox's success too much for various reason, though I do admit that FireFox is obviously better than its competing products. Don't say I'm insane or stupid just because I'm not saying we should gloat all we want about FireFox.

Re:I agree. (1)

digitalgimpus (468277) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354906)


1) Firefox doesn't allow me to open multiple browser windows by using a bound keyboard shortcut (CTRL+ALT+E) (yes I know about CTRL+T..)

Why not CTRL+T?


2) Just as MSIE has the annoying, hard-to-get-rid-of "Links" folder in its Favorites menu, Firefox has its own required "Bookmark" directory which it will not let you delete.

Ok, I've got to ask why you would want to delete that directory. It's the top level. ROOT. You have to have a top level. This is like saying "I don't like having a monitor. I want to read right off the Hard Drive.


3) Firefox still renders many pages oddly. Yes, I know this is because a lot of web pages have been developed with MSIE's bugs in mind. Regardless, it is still annoying.

This will be toppled soon...
- New release based on trunk, will have many improvement to gecko rendering engine.
- Reporter tool will allow you to report broken/blocked websites to the evangelism team with ease. Were hoping to land it soon.


4) I've got buttons on my Logitech keyboard that are bound to launch certain websites. However, when I make Firefox my default browser and I try to use these buttons nothing happens. I know this is related to how IE is intertwined with Windows, but still, it is another reason why I am sticking with IE for now.

There are a dozen hacks to get it working. It's more a Logitech issue. Your friend google [google.com] will fix it for you.

Re:I agree. (1)

conteXXt (249905) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355105)

"Ok, I've got to ask why you would want to delete that directory. It's the top level. ROOT. You have to have a top level. This is like saying "I don't like having a monitor. I want to read right off the Hard Drive."

not accusing but he/she may be a Windows user. the concept and assumtions of / (root,chrooting,etc) may not be second nature.

It's never really bothered me though.

Re:I agree. (1)

imsabbel (611519) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354907)



1). What du you mean? alt+N opens a new window, or do you mean something else?)
2) dont understand what you mean... but if its in MSIE,too why does it hinder you from switching?
3) maybe, but i never noticed it. some pages are badly looking, but that could be by design (either lacking html or estethics skillz)
4) ask logitech. They surely can fix this bug in their utility. this has nothing to do with firebirg.

Re:I agree. (1)

lukewarmfusion (726141) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354911)

I'm not going to try and persuade you (there are plenty here that will give it a shot, I'm sure) but I'm wondering what you mean by #1... I hit CTRL+N and it opens a new browser window. CTRL+T is a new tab...

Do you mean that you want to set that action to that specific keyboard shortcut?

Re:I agree. (0, Redundant)

mopslik (688435) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354926)

Not to be a pain, really, but...

Firefox doesn't allow me to open multiple browser windows by using a bound keyboard shortcut (CTRL+ALT+E)

Ctrl-N works fine in my FF 1.0 here...

Just as MSIE has the annoying, hard-to-get-rid-of "Links" folder in its Favorites menu, Firefox has its own required "Bookmark" directory which it will not let you delete.

If this is the case, then FF and IE are on equal footing, wouldn't you say?

Firefox still renders many pages oddly.

I'll give you this one, but only to an extent. Unless I'm visiting some random "kewl d00d" FrontPage-generated GeoCities page, I have no troubles with any of the sites I use on a regular basis. Not my bank, not online merchants, not any major news site. The only one close to troublesome is /. itself, and someone had an AdBlock solution posted somewhere that has fixed it for me.

I've got buttons on my Logitech keyboard...

I can't argue that off-hand, so in all, I give you 1 1/2 points for IE, and 2 1/2 for FF. Start talking about security and whatnot, however, and I think that FF will easily pull ahead.

Re:I agree. (NOT) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11354975)

Could you give some *real* reasons?

1) New Window (Ctrl + N)
2) Why do you want to delete the bookmars folder? you could delete all of its contents and place your new bookmarks there. Even so for IE
3) Don't complaint about an annoying thing if you know why it happens (Buggy IE)
4) im pretty sure that your keyboard can be programmed to change the behavior if not, check the registry values for those bound keys

Some people complain about the silliest things...

Re:I agree. (NOT) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355242)

First of all let me say that I use Firefox, but posts like yours (and the 4 or 5 above this one) are just ridiculous.

1) I think he was saying that he could rebind 'new window' to whatever keystoke he chooses, which as far as I can tell can't be done in Firefox.
2) He wants to delete the bookmarks folder, who cares why, it IS rather silly that you can't delete it.
3) This isn't really 'buggy IE' this is a matter of web pages written without the W3C in mind, only IE.
4) I don't have any extra buttons on my keyboard so I can't comment on this. But...

All of his complaints are completely valid, and it isn't like he was bashing Firefox or anything. I don't understand why people don't take these points more seriously rather than getting all defensive and putting people down.

Re:I agree. (0, Redundant)

sepluv (641107) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355141)

1) Ctrl+N works for me. 2) There's one called "Personal Toolbar Folder" not "Bookmark" though; but you can rename it to whatever you like or just ignore it. File it as a bug if it annoys you that much. 3) Not for me. URIs please... 4) Try changing the buttons to launch Firefox in the drivers somewhere.

Re:I agree. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355266)

Don't any of you tards read the replies to the post before you blather the exact same thing 10 times in a row?

Re:I agree. (3, Insightful)

telemnar (68532) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355270)

1. As previous posters pointed out, CTRL-N works. It's even listed in the menu with the rest.

2. The "Bookmarks Toolbar" folder can be removed by manually editing bookmarks.html in your profile directory.

Someone really should gin up a menu item in the bookmark manager to designate an arbitrary folder as the toolbar, and allow removal of the default.

That said, I have recently started using the bookmark bar after years of dispassionately ignoring it - and you know what? it's actually very useful for keeping commonly used links (i.e. webmail, ticketing system and admin pages at work) and RSS feeds. Give it a shot, you might even like it.

3. IE-specific sites are broken, not firefox. complain to the people that spit out the poor markup.

4. two options- either change your keyboard to launch firefox with the URIs as arguments (firefox.exe -remote "openURL http://foo") or complain at logitech to fix their software to pass the URIs to the OS' default handler. The blame here lies solely with them.

GPL: Intellectual Theft (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11354830)

Hello,

Consulting for several large companies, I'd always done my work on Windows. Recently however, a top online investment firm asked us to do some work using Linux. The concept of having access to source code was very appealing to us, as we'd be able to modify the kernel to meet our exacting standards which we're unable to do with Microsoft's products.

Although we met several technical challenges along the way (specifically, Linux's lack of Token Ring support and the fact that we were unable to defrag its ext2 file system), all in all the process went smoothly. Everyone was very pleased with Linux, and we were considering using it for a great deal of future internal projects.

So you can imagine our suprise when we were informed by a lawyer that we would be required to publish our source code for others to use. It was brought to our attention that Linux is copyrighted under something called the GPL, or the Gnu Protective License. Part of this license states that any changes to the kernel are to be made freely available. Unfortunately for us, this meant that the great deal of time and money we spent "touching up" Linux to work for this investment firm would now be available at no cost to our competitors.

Furthermore, after reviewing this GPL our lawyers advised us that any products compiled with GPL'ed tools - such as gcc - would also have to its source code released. This was simply unacceptable.

Although we had planned for no one outside of this company to ever use, let alone see the source code, we were now put in a difficult position. We could either give away our hard work, or come up with another solution. Although it was tought to do, there really was no option: We had to rewrite the code, from scratch, for Windows 2000.

I think the biggest thing keeping Linux from being truly competitive with Microsoft is this GPL. Its draconian requirements virtually guarentee that no business will ever be able to use it. After my experience with Linux, I won't be recommending it to any of my associates. I may reconsider if Linux switches its license to something a little more fair, such as Microsoft's "Shared Source". Until then its attempts to socialize the software market will insure it remains only a bit player.

Thank you for your time.

Re:GPL: Intellectual Theft (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11354902)

OMG TEH GPL is on TEH SPOKE!!!!111111```oneone

-1 TeH GHeY WeAK TRoLL

Re:GPL: Intellectual Theft (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355098)

Alright, this looks like a troll (although points, if it is it's at least a clever one), but I'll bite regardless.

The GPL, for one thing, does not REQUIRE you to release your source code. If I modify a Linux kernel for my own use, or any other piece of GPL software, I challenge you to find ANYTHING in the GPL which requires me to release my source code to anyone, anywhere. What the GPL does state is that IF you choose to distribute the program, you MUST release the source code to those it is distributed to. There is NOTHING, however, in the GPL which -requires- such distribution and I challenge you to show me otherwise.

Further, it is patently false that "anything" compiled with gcc would be required to be released under GPL. Of course, if you choose to use a GPL'd library, you are bound by the terms of the GPL, but simply using gcc/g++ does not bind the resulting program under the GPL any more than using OpenOffice to produce a document binds that document under GFDL.

From the GPL:

The act of running the Program is not restricted, and the output from the Program is covered only if its contents constitute a work based on the Program (independent of having been made by running the Program).

Of course, you would have to give the source code for the project to the company you developed it for. That is the entire point of the GPL. The premise of the GPL is very simple: Those who develop proprietary, closed solutions certainly do not offer their code up for free use by the open-source community, so why should we offer our code up for free use by them when they do not reciprocate?

As to your assertion that it is "nearly impossible" for companies to use Linux, I know of a good few companies who would certainly beg to differ. If you were depending on a program to provide security for sensitive data worth millions or billions of dollars, would you prefer that 1. You buy closed software product A, whose vendor charges you however much they wish that day in exchange for an assurance that "It'll work. Really." Or 2. Download a well-known, peer-reviewed opensource program, which thousands of programmers have looked through and found to be secure, or, when found to be insecure, have fixed it. If you or your own team of programmers wishes to look through the code, check it for flaws, fix them if found, and/or modify and tailor it to your specific needs, that's fine. If you find a flaw and want to fix it at once rather than wait for the vendor to do something, that's fine.

I could certainly go on about the benefits of using opensource software, but I think I've had my daily dose of feeding the trolls and it's been covered thoroughly here. What I do have to say to you is, if you do want to develop proprietary, closed software, you are free to do so. But I'm very glad that you are NOT free to do so with code which was designed with the good of the community, not your personal enrichment, in mind. If you are unwilling to contribute, you may not take. Good riddance.

So, basically what he is saying is ... ? (2, Insightful)

YankeeInExile (577704) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354877)

Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall. Proverbs 16:18 KJV

Re: So, basically what he is saying is ... ? (1)

Black Parrot (19622) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355250)


> Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall. Proverbs 16:18 KJV

Yeah, that's why Gates and Rumsfeld are living in the gutter these days.

gloating? unlikely... (1)

jxyama (821091) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354899)

the basis, and the strength, of open source is the fact it's almost a hobby for many involved...

you may take "pride and joy" in the hobby, but as long as there are passionate developers out there who consider open source development very much his/her hobby, i don't see the open source as a whole "gloating" no matter the success.

Why are users and developers seperate? (5, Interesting)

QuantumG (50515) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354901)

Even when I speak to people who do development all day long they still talk about users and developers as if they're two different people. Even when they're talking about themselves they do it. I'm guilty of it myself: I use Mozilla, but I work on Boomerang [sourceforge.net]. Fact is, no matter how much I value my freedom to modify Mozilla, I've probably done it once in the whole time I've been using it. (My Mozilla doesn't have "Close All Other Tabs" right below "Close Tab" cause I accidentially clicked it one too many times.) Why is this? It's because it's just too much hard work to go-and-get-the-source-code that it's easier to just put up with bugs and poor ui decisions, and just hope it gets fixed in the next release. This is especially funny for Mozilla and FireFox cause a large part of them is written in Javascript, meaning you already have the source code. Unfortunately, the effort required to get from noticing an annoyance to finding the right file:line to make a change is still too much. Can anyone think of any way to ease this translation? It'd be really cool if I could hold down alt and middle click on a menu to get a javascript editor focused on the bit of code responsible for the thing I want to fix. Then we can add to that editor a button that says 'email patch'. How many millions of developers-as-users would contribute to projects like Mozilla if this was the case?

Re:Why are users and developers seperate? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355339)

Such a development environment exists...it's called Delphi [borland.com]. Was outstanding in versions 2-4, but now it's becoming more and more M$-ish.

He's missing the key element of software success.. (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11354920)

...like basic PR. Try picking a name for your software that doesn't suck ass.

Cool: Firefox, Thunderbird, Mozilla
Gay: Chandler, Bob, Opera

Re:He's missing the key element of software succes (1)

Refrozen (833543) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355326)

Opera was a good name in my opinion. Windows has been successful, and has a horrible, and completely irrelevant (other than the fact they call boxes windows) name... same with all other Microsoft products. Windows Calculator is an immensly successful product... err... uhh... never mind.

Firefox too famous need some way to get some fame (1)

Rares Marian (83629) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354930)

Yeah the best way to promote a product is to reduce the clout of the product that makes yours worthwhile.

Good luck.

the guy is not dismissing firefox's success... (5, Insightful)

Kunta Kinte (323399) | more than 9 years ago | (#11354968)

He is on Mozilla's board for crying out loud. He is simply saying that the battle is far from over. A valid observation.

Kapor's put a lot of time, money, and probably other resources into open source. They are many who just talk a good game, and then there are others like Kapor who put millions into open source.

But hey, don't let that get in the way of a perfectly good lynching.

Don't be proud, but... (1)

Jameth (664111) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355016)

Don't be proud about your success, but we dream of being as successful as you are.

Those in glass houses should throw no stones (1)

Orion Blastar (457579) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355065)

Putting down Firefox fans for gloating, all the while gloating over one's own OSS product that competes with Thunderbird and other email clients like Novell Evolution and Microsoft Outlook.

You also have to explain to suits why your OSS product will work better for them than the Outlook bundled with MS-Office for free. Don't try to tell them that the security is better, because they have developers exploiting those security flaws to automate email processes and also spy on what their users are doing to make sure they are productive. ;)

Re:Those in glass houses should throw no stones (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355155)

"Those in glass houses should throw no stones."

Thanks for the sweet title, Confucius. Can I at least get a fortune cookie next time you decide to wax philosophical?

Firefox and Ofoto... (1)

BTWR (540147) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355096)

It's really annoying that there's no drag-and-drop uploading for ofoto now that I'm using Firefox (which I love) and I now have to upload the pics in IE (and get 15 popups for my trouble)

Re:Firefox and Ofoto... (1)

jp10558 (748604) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355357)

You know, I'd say that's an ofoto problem, not FF.

I use a service called streamload to store files, but like to use Opera with it.

I still have full menus, full functionality, full batch uploads via drag to the window (granted they always had more than one upload styles, so batch was a different page than one up).

How does it work? It's a Java app. That is one of the things Java is good for IMO - the whole thing is even more professional looking IMO than IE's because you have a java box that pops up with a nice clean gradually moving bar (upload status) vs a pop-up window that is periodically reloading and has one of those bunches of boxes bars that jerkily moves up.

lost to microsoft by no fault of his own (0, Offtopic)

Grommet - Space Cade (775072) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355107)

umm not that i think the fault was his or anything but the phrase is flawsed...

Microsoft TOOK the spreadsheet market...microsoft never win wars they buy the opposition or pay them off later...

office lockins forced lotus out..

Vaporware? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355311)

I can't remember when the project to create Chandler was first announced. But it seems like we've been hearing about this forever, and I'm starting to wonder if Chandler is going to be the Duke Nukem Forever of open source applications.

Chandler: How not to start an open source project. (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355353)

I respect Mich Kapor and I liked the initial concept, but Chandler is an exercise in how NOT to build an open source project. Most successful open source projects I've seen fall in to two main categories:
  • 1. OSS Developer writes code in spare time to scratch an itch, other developers join in the fun.
  • 2. A Company decides to open source an existing commercial product, open source developers join to build on the existing code.
While paying developers to work on an EXISTING open source project does work, paying developers to CREATE an open source does not. What happens? Millions of dollars in foundation money and feature creep at an unimaginable scale.

I hope Chandler overcomes these odds, but the future doesn't look bright unless their is a major turnaround. Firefox 0.1 was 10x more usable than Chandler 0.5.

misleading news again (2, Informative)

imr (106517) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355360)

Why? To attract attention on him? The article was interresting in itself, it didnt deserve that kind of tricks.
He barely talk about cautiousness in ONE sentence in ONE paragraph in a 2 PAGES article!
Nobody knows what's going to happen. It's certainly not inevitable that Firefox's market share will continue to increase. I think open-source advocates would do well to be relatively cautious and avoid making claims and predictions.
He isnt even talking about gloating!!!
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