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Windows Longhorn to make Graphics Cards more Important

CowboyNeal posted more than 9 years ago | from the eye-candy-overkill dept.

Windows 714

Renegade334 writes "The Inquirer has a story about MS Longhorn and its need for better than entry level graphics cards. This is due to the WGF (Windows Graphics Foundation) which will merge 2D and 3D graphics operations in one, and 3D menus and interfaces that require atleast Shader 2.0 compliant cards. Supposedly it will really affect the performance of the new Microsoft OS." This has been noted before in the system requirements for Longhorn, but it would seem the full impact is slowly being realized.

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714 comments

Welcome to the Present (4, Insightful)

Oculus Habent (562837) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355534)

Mac OS X uses the graphics card heavily for much of its interfaces. All Macs sport at least a Radeon 9200 (Mobility in the iBook G4), and Apple takes advantage of those cards in plenty of apps... note the multi-person video chat layout & details in iChat AV, or the compositing

That's not a knock on Windows - just an aside, really. The consumer graphics of PCs have been steadily improving, and there's little reason to not make use of that power. The only problems could be in the low-end motherboards offering cheap integrated video. Inevitably, some people are left out in the cold. Time to start moving to nForce or Radeon IGP, PCChips!

I wonder if they'll have a cool Genie effect for minimizing... ;)

Re:Welcome to the Present (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355578)

Sure, and Mac users don't mind the few extra bucks for the whole Mac look & feel. You buy a Mac, you get a complete package.

Re:Welcome to the Present (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355601)

Do you like the smell of STeve "b10' Jobs' asshole, Fanboi?

Re:Welcome to the Present (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355604)

Yeah, if you use Java apps with Java 5.0, you can get OpenGL-acceleration for everything. It's not the default yet, but it probably will be in Mustang (6.0).

This won't work for SWT or AWT, though (which would get acceleration from the native graphic system, if any) - only Swing and other Java2D-based libraries.

Re:Welcome to the Present (1)

themysteryman73 (771100) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355748)

in case you haven't noticed the Radeon 9200 IS an entry-level card... They're saying that you'll need a BETTER than entry level card to run Longhorn... And you'll need a PC too :P

Re:Welcome to the Present (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355752)

At least I'll still be able to use twm on X. Fuck Apple and fuck Microsoft. If I were a big game player, then maybe I'd want to shell out money for a high end graphics card, but I'm not, and I don't. Those minimum system requirements are ludicrous, moreso for Microsoft than for Apple because the Mac users will buy whatever Apple tells them to, anyway, but Windows is in a lot of places where games don't get played.

Some secretary working on a memo or letter doesn't really even need Windows. LaTeX could do what Word does for those tasks much better and much more efficiently. Raising the bar on what graphics card her machine has, just so that menus can be rendered, is moronic. Think about sitting in a computer lab using Matlab. Windows already eats shit when any serious number crunching program gets fired up. Longhorn is going to want to make it harder to render the menus? Even if the rendering gets performed by the GPU, it's going to fuck your simulation in the ass.

Serious scientific computing isn't performed on Windows, of course, but some programs are expensive and must be installed on only the machines where the most people can use them, and no others. Microsoft is fucking a lot of people on this one.

Shocking.. (5, Funny)

Gorffy (763399) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355535)

Using Windows as a way to sell more hardware!

Re:Shocking.. (1)

Trejkaz (615352) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355761)

Yeah, in that respect, this really isn't news. ;-)

Yeah, but today's high end (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355539)

Will be low-end by the time it actually gets released.

FIRST POST (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355541)

Wow I got first post

FAILURE ALERT!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355753)

Wow you got A FAILURE. The magnitude of your failure is so great that it caused that fucking huge tsunami that killed everybody TWO WEEKS IN ADVANCE! That's right; your failure was so huge that it ripped apart the fabric of space and time and went back two weeks and to the other side of the planet causing a huge earthquake to strike. CONGRATULATIONS! YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATHS OF 150,000+ PEOPLE!

First post (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355542)

First post w00t !!!!

Wow... like shooting fish in a barrel (1, Offtopic)

agraupe (769778) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355543)

How can anti-MS people *not* insult Microsoft when Microsoft seems so very intent in giving them every reason? Although, I must say that it has become so easy it's no fun anymore.

Re:Wow... like shooting fish in a barrel (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355624)

Yeah, cause if they didn't have fancy menus, people would make fun of them for being ugly. And if they didn't tell about the graphics cards, people would complain about bad warning.

I hate MS, but in this instance give them a fucking break.

How silly (5, Interesting)

grub (11606) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355546)


This is due to the WGF (Windows Graphics Foundation) which will merge 2D and 3D graphics operations in one, and 3D menus and interfaces that require atleast Shader 2.0 compliant cards.

That's just plain stupid. Grandpa & Grandma want to check their email and pics of the grandkids, why on earth should they require a Radeon MegaXP293823-XtremeSLI+ to do that? I hope there's an option to disable all that cycle-wasting crud or MS may be shooting itself in the foot: how many offices will spend a few hundred dollars on individual video cards just to upgrade the OS? What about those machines with onboard video (ala Dell?)

Re:How silly (1)

malfunct (120790) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355571)

I'm sure that by the time longhorn releases there will be a large number of sub $100 (actually there are now I believe) video cards that support this technology.

Re:How silly (5, Funny)

grub (11606) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355633)


Having 10-20% of the price of your PC being in a bare minimum graphics card just seems ridiculous. What's next? Requiring 5.1 digital sound with multichannel reverb so Longhorn can tell the user "You've got mail!" ?

Re:How silly (1)

stratjakt (596332) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355675)

There already are. You don't need anything fancy.

Mac's already do this with a Radeon 9200, which retails at best buy for 80 bucks. Which means you can find 'em online for much less. Pricewatch lists them starting at 40. In a few years, you'll be looking at maybe a 20 dollar upgrade to your GeForce MX (actually if your computer is that far out of date by then, Longhorn probably won't be an option for you)

Why is it eye candy is so amazing and impressive if it's in OSX or KDE, but it's just bloat and a terrible violation of "your rights online" if Microsoft plans it for an OS that's at least two years away?

Re:How silly (2, Insightful)

EvilSporkMan (648878) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355705)

Well, eye candy may or may not be bad in OSX - if I had the money to waste, I'd get a Mac and dual boot with Linux. As far as KDE goes, you may be able to turn this "eye candy" off, and KDE isn't forced on you if you just want to use Linux.

Re:How silly (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355710)


Why is it eye candy is so amazing and impressive if it's in OSX or KDE, but it's just bloat and a terrible violation of "your rights online" if Microsoft plans it for an OS that's at least two years away?

Mac users expect the eye candy and don't mind paying for it. Many *nix users I know, myself included, don't use KDE or Gnome. Personally I love WindowMaker [windowmaker.org]

Re:How silly (5, Funny)

stratjakt (596332) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355760)

So what do unix users have to do with Windows?

Noone's threatening your Korn shell. Text mode isn't going anywhere. You can keep your CGA monitor. Relax.

Re:How silly (1)

AKnightCowboy (608632) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355683)

I'm sure that by the time longhorn releases there will be a large number of sub $100 (actually there are now I believe) video cards that support this technology.

Except those integrated Dell units don't have an AGP slot so I guess you throw them away.

Hey grub, (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355658)

your post got modded "Troll" before my "NIGGER BABY RAPE" post which is right after yours. LOL

Re:Hey grub, (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355682)

yeah, but it's still early on the west coast (Redmond). MS doesn't mind "NIGGER BABY RAPE" as much as questioning their authority to dictate machine specs.

Re:How silly (5, Interesting)

Tasy (410890) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355712)

I think something most people don't realize is that by using the GPU to render, you are actually taking load OFF of the CPU, not adding to it. Bravo to Microsoft for this.

Now all we have to do, is pray they don't leave some loop hole open that lets someone burn your video card. Can you imagine, built in Windows overclocking?

*shudder*

Re:How silly (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355727)

Current machines don't need to use the GPU for the 2D window work (unless you like eye candy crap)

call me crazy... (2, Interesting)

dAzED1 (33635) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355716)

but who says grandpa and grandma need to move to longhorn as soon as it comes out, when MS is just nowending support for WINNT4.0, as reported recently here on /.?

Grandpa and grandma will be just fine on 2000 or xp, or...and here's the crazy part...even 98. My father in law still uses win3.freaking-1 on a 486, for Christ's sake. Grandpa and grandma will be just fine.

Re:call me crazy... (1)

Feyr (449684) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355763)

windows 3.1 is definately still used, altough not much. i know of 1 (out of ~3000 customers) that still use it (along with a 14.4k modem). it does the job, why should he bother upgrading?

Re:How silly (1)

PhraudulentOne (217867) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355728)

Mom and Pop don't need longhorn if they just need to check mail and surf the web. Also, by the time the OS is released, perhaps these graphics standards will be, umm... standard. Mom and Pop have no need to buy a new OS if they just need the basics. OTOH, if they do need Longhorn, then it will probably have come pre-installed on the computer they buy.

Re:How silly (1)

Capt'n Hector (650760) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355756)

That's just plain stupid. Grandpa & Grandma want to check their email and pics of the grandkids, why on earth should they require a Radeon MegaXP293823-XtremeSLI+ to do that?

I think you've touched on one of the more hilarious parts of the computer industry. It's not about what people NEED, it's what you can require them to need. Want the new security features of Longhorn? Want to do email faster? You'll need a better graphics card.

MICHAEL SIMS ANALLY RAPES NIGGER BABIES DAILY (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355547)

Rob "CmdrTaco" Malda, head honcho at Slashdot (a newborn baby rapist support and advice website), approves of NIGGER BABY RAPE.

Re:MICHAEL SIMS ANALLY RAPES NIGGER BABIES DAILY (0, Offtopic)

rstidman (711726) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355617)

Daily? Cmdr Taco told me he was cutting back to once a week...

Re:MICHAEL SIMS ANALLY RAPES NIGGER BABIES DAILY (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355628)

As long as the nigger cubs are killed in the process and the nigger population is thereby reduced, what's your complaint?

Let CmdrTaco rape nigger cubs for civilisation, I say.

Re:MICHAEL SIMS ANALLY RAPES NIGGER BABIES DAILY (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355632)

I can't imagine that. He has never done anything useful.

*ahem* (0, Offtopic)

soricine (576909) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355549)

OS X?

Re:*ahem* (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355608)

if your implying using OS X requires beefy video think again, I have a Radeon 7000 and Rage 128 pci cards in My B&W and video is just fine

Re:*ahem* (1)

spac3manspiff (839454) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355627)

huh?

Re:*ahem* (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355699)

Yes, but we're discussing color computers, not your Macintosh.

Obviously, *at least* 256 colors will be needed for 3D displays. The days of your B&W Mac are numbered, pal.

The end of cheap computers (1)

travisco_nabisco (817002) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355550)

Well, I think this is the first post!!! Okay, anyhow, I guess this will be the end of cheap computers from mass manufaturers. Everyone is going to be wanting to see if their system runs the Word menus better than their friends computers. Hey, Microsoft can release a graphics benchmark for windows and office.

Re:The end of cheap computers (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355611)

agreed!

what happened to the 100 dollar PC Ballmer was ranting about???

100 bucks wont even buy the video card M$FT is wanting to push this on...

End of the world! (4, Funny)

CoolMoDee (683437) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355656)

It's the end of the world I tell ya. End of cheap PC's, an affordable mac. What's next? 100 dollar iPods?

GDI? (1)

WilyCoder (736280) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355552)

Will the GDI still be present in its current form, or is Microsoft porting the GDI to Direct3D?

Re:GDI? (1)

lachlan76 (770870) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355732)

Avalon (is it still going to be in Longhorn?) uses DirectX for its graphics.

As if windows wasnt slow enough (3, Insightful)

TouchOfRed (785130) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355553)

I really fail to see how this will be useful, and help productivity. Personally, i dont think an operating system needs to be that fancy. Just like those who use the console now, "back in my day, we had to use 2d interfaces"

Re:As if windows wasnt slow enough (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355733)

As if Windows wasn't slow enough? This will speed up Windows by offloading some of the GUI work ontothe GPU instead of it being done by the CPU. Mas OS X does this today.

As if windows wasnt slow enough-The Seers Way. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355743)

Well well, the fates pervail.

Remember this [croquetproject.org] ? That's what's coming to Linux. Here's a summary [itwales.com] for those who haven't seen the video, and explains the environment better. Couple that with this [tu-harburg.de] or this [cincom.com] environment. And you begin to see the future of working with Linux. Collaboration is the OSS way, and with such a foundation. Everyone will be able to participate. Programmers, and non alike.

Funny (1, Interesting)

spac3manspiff (839454) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355555)

"Windows Longhorn to make graphics card important"
Translation: Microsoft inserts knife in back.

People are not going to buy longhorn if they need to buy a graphics card too. They will look for something else and find linux!

Re:Funny (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355576)

Most people (not companies) don't buy new versions of Windows. It either comes with their PC, or they get it through other sources. The few people that buy new versions are probably the same people that have no problem buying a new graphics card or just a whole new computer.

Re:Funny (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355606)

People are not going to buy longhorn if they need to buy a graphics card too.

Are you joking? Were you even around when Windows 95 came out?

Hell, with Windows 95 people were more likely to just buy the upgrades and pirate windows than they were to risk being left behind.

The "but if you don't pay the Microsoft tax this year, you won't be able to use Microsoft Word.DOC and your grandkids won't be able to open your emails and the computer will get the viruses!" FUD machine is probably far, far more ready to go than the OS programmers are.

Re:Funny (2, Insightful)

stratjakt (596332) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355701)

Yeah, a Radeon 9200 costs what, 36 dollars according to pricewatch.

THOSE BASTARDS!

I'm sure lots of people will switch to linux to save that 44 bucks. Even though they'll probably have to buy new wireless cards, modems, or whatever other miscellaneous hardware linux doesn't support.

Re:Funny (2)

tomstdenis (446163) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355750)

"whatever other miscellaneous hardware linux doesn't support."

That's awfully backwards thinking. I'd say the hardware manufacturers don't support linux.

I remember back in the day when DOS moved into Windows 3.0 and it was a question of whether the [mostly sound cards] device manufacturer supported windows and not if windows supported the device. It was understood that hardware alone isn't the only responsibility.

But let's not forget that Windows barely supports any recent hardware [graphics/sound/tv tuner] anyways. In my windows install at least I had to install the nvidia and hauppage drivers manually.

Do I now say "Windows doesn't support bt848 cards!!!"?

Tom

Re:Funny (1)

gkuz (706134) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355720)

People are not going to buy longhorn

Nobody's going to buy Longhorn. They're going to buy a computer, which will have Longhorn on it whether they want it or not.

This will boost the market (4, Interesting)

KalvinB (205500) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355765)

There's been a slump in the computer sector due to the massive roll out around 2000. Not too many people buy a new computer within a couple years. It wouldn't surprise me if most people were still using the systems they bought 4 years ago. If they're using XP, it's a software upgrade only.

When XP came out my dad, a programmer for a large corporation, eventually bought a new computer from Dell with XP on it about a year ago. His previous system was a 350Mhz Dell. A programmer myself, my top system is a 1.2Ghz Duron running Win2K. I've had it for a couple years.

When Longhorn comes out it's time for an upgrade anyway and most people are going to buy prebuilt systems. Those prebuilt systems will have a (barely) sufficient graphics card.

GeForce FX 5500's are well under $100 already. In a couple years when Windows needs that kind of card to run, they'll be dirt cheap and onboard.

And it'll be just in time for when people are looking to upgrade their computer hardware anyway.

Complaining that MS is forcing upgrades is as silly as claiming ID Software forces hardware upgrades. I still use 2000, could use 98 if I wanted. I could also play Wolfenstein 3D and stick to a 386. Something needs to drive the market. If there was no need for better hardware, there'd be no better hardware. It's all artificially driven anyway. There's no objective reason why we need fancy pants graphics in any software. There's no objective reason we need high quality, drive space/CPU/Memory eating, audio/video.

In short, who cares that MS is making greater graphics demands for it's OS? They've done this with every release. Even Linux is making greater and greater demands. If you want the all the graphics pizzaz of Windows 3.11, use Windows 3.11. Some of us like an OS that looks "pretty."

If you want a plain text OS, then use DOS or ditch the GUI of Linux and have fun.

Quartz (1)

FFON (266696) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355559)

Quartz Extreeemmmmme anyone?

KDE should use this in their advertising (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355562)

"KDE: Gets 5000% performance out of your graphics card by using our patented 'It Doesn't Use Fucking Pixel Shaders Just To Display A Fucking Menu' technology!"

Re:KDE should use this in their advertising (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355664)

"KDE: Gets 5000% performance out of your graphics card by using our patented 'It Doesn't Use Fucking Pixel Shaders Just To Display A Fucking Menu' technology!"

That would improve KDE so it will only be like 50 times slower than Linux then.

Re:KDE should use this in their advertising (1)

cyberfelon2k5 (849302) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355768)

Your graphics card is barely being used while you're not playing games or watching videos. It won't slow anything down because it's simply making use of something that just sits there waiting to be used. Companies jazzing up their GUI is far from a new thing, and it's as much about keeping the OS modern as it is about actual innovation.

Cool (2, Interesting)

the_Bionic_lemming (446569) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355567)

Finally a move into using hardware to speed stuff up.

I know we'll see a bunch of folks protesting bloat and other fud - but it'll be cool to see what they come up with with a home UI that strains a vid card.

When Longhorn is released... (1)

Biff Stu (654099) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355568)

I'll need a high end graphics card to play Duke Nukem Forever.

No biggie. (5, Insightful)

stratjakt (596332) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355570)

You can get a card today for ~80 bucks that fit the bill. Even PCI models, if you're that far out of the loop. By the time longhorn is released, they'll be commonplace.

Frankly, I can't wait to see this. All that GPU power of my 9800 is basically being wasted 99.99999999% of the time right now.

Re:No biggie. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355731)

That's 10 9's. That means you use your graphics card for about 36.5 nanoseconds per year?

So? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355572)

By the time Longhorn is released in 2007 or 2008, will anyone really care?

But... (3, Funny)

rune2 (547599) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355579)

Can it run Longhorn? oh wait....

I can't wait! (1)

DanSolo (752246) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355584)

I can't wait until my start menu uses bump mapping and takes 10 seconds to animate into view. This is going to be awesome!!

not so much impact (4, Informative)

diegocgteleline.es (653730) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355585)

IIRC, longhorn installer will check your graphics card (if it's lower than X fps then...) and will enable or disable 3D functions depending on if you've a good or bad graphics card

In short: the "3d mode" it won't be the one available. There will be a much lighter desktop available (somewhat like current XP or something like that, you'll miss all the 3d stuff but...)

Lobby (1, Insightful)

FiReaNGeL (312636) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355589)

Honestly, do we NEED a 3d-accelerated interface? I'm sorry, but the "cute" factor vanish rapidly, and if it's gonna cost me a 200$ video card, I'll pass my turn. So basically, we will be required to buy a 3d card if we want to upgrade past Windows XP?

Anyone else think that Nvidia and ATI might have lobbied aggressively for this? I can't justify this... if it was an option, sure, no problem, but a necessity...

Re:Lobby (3, Insightful)

stratjakt (596332) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355740)

Oh shut the fuck up. 200 dollars my ass. I seriously am sick to fucking hell of "computar linux exparts" spouting such nonsense. Mod me down, call me a MSFT astoturfer or whatever. I absolutely hate intellectual dishonesty.

A Radeon 9200 is 36 dollars.

And no, you don't need it. Don't buy longhorn.

I don't know if you'd noticed, but you can't buy anything BUT a 3D card new these days. By the time longhorn is out, if you don't have a 3D card with PS2.0 support, that would make your PC about 5 years old. If you want the latest software, sometimes you have to upgrade.

I like the idea of using it for something other than games.

Re:Lobby (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355746)

Crappyish video cards (Fx5200) are available for, say, $60. Decent video cards are around $120-170 (Radeon 9600 Pro, etc). By the time longhorn roles out, it shouldn't be that difficult to afford a video card that can support at least some of its 3d features. The rest will be disabled by Longhorn so that you lose no performance (eyecandy, yes).

Yes Fisher Price in 3d!!!!!! (1)

Obliviously (846787) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355590)

so will the msn messenger guy in longer be a true 3d little fisher price guy?

Other effects (1)

Datasage (214357) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355600)

I frequent several diffrent gaming forums. I have noticed that there are always people trying to play games on intel integrated graphics. Since intel just barely supports standards, its not a suprise that many games dont run at all or hardly on those cards.

Hopefully it will encourage intel and other intergraded graphics makers to make decent video chipset or get replaced by demand. On the other hand, intel might make it just good enough for longhorn but not games.

Re:Other effects (1)

magarity (164372) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355649)

there are always people trying to play games on intel integrated graphics

But... but... the sticker on the front of the case says 'Intel Extreme Graphics! How can anything beat 'Extreme'?
But don't worry, by the time Longhorn hits the market, I bet we'll have 'Intel Excessive Graphics' and be all set!

3D (1)

tuxter (809927) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355603)

So this gives us more driver issues, more crud, bloat, shit, bluescreens, and generally more of a way to slow down our computers. Once again microsoft, cheers.

Re:3D (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355642)

But think of all the 3D whiz-bang you get! Word menus in THREE DIMENSIONS that spin around! Lens flares!

Re:3D (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355714)

Nice work trollboy. Have you ever used Windows since Linux was released? Newsflash - it's been stable since 1996 so long as you don't install poorly written third party apps.

Driver issues? If you don't want driver issues, use Windows (more drivers and compatibility than any other OS on the planet) or Mac (No driver problems because you can't use anything but what Steve Jobs says you can). Whatever you do, don't use Linux, of those three big OS's, Linux has the most driver problems and the least compatibility.

Crud - define crud? Nowadays Windows comes with less bundled stuff than before. You can use program defaults to obscure MSIE, Outlook and MS's Java knockoff. Windows server doesn't do anything out of the box, you need to manually allow every server function before it can be used.

Bluescreens - clearly you're not very experienced or skilled with computers. You can't use MSIE to go browse those russian pr0n sites because you get the spywarez installed, understand? The only reason you'll suffer bluescreens today is because you did something stupid like that.

Slow down your computer - You make a tradeoff between functionality and performance. You don't want bells and whistles? Replace your windows shell with cmd.exe. Go on, I dare you. What? You don't want the sheer performance that a CLI gives you, but you complain that such a tradeoff between graphics and performance exists? Put your computer back in the box and send it back to the Dell dude.

Your computer license is revoked, get off our internet.

I dont see a problem (1)

SteveXE (641833) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355607)

By the time Longhorn is out im sure all low end graphics cards and integrated solutions will support pixel shader 2.0. And chances are those who upgrade will have better then crap hardware.

needless (rant mostly) (1)

potpie (706881) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355614)

The idea of an uberpretty 3d enhanced desktop is completely unnecessary. Unless it allows for tilting windows and using screenspace more effectively (since they never figured out the multiple desktop idea =), this is a complete waste of system resources and....

the sad thing is how many people will buy it, run it at a choppy frame-rate, and flaunt their new purchase (it's gotta be at least a few hundred bucks right? this is MS) as though it were the latest in gaming technology. No karma bonus for this rant...

Re:needless (rant mostly) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355686)

You do know that Windows NT has always had multiple desktops, right? An infinite number of them which can each run their own shell. Oh yeah, you wouldn't know that because you don't actually know the first fucking thing about Windows, you're just happy to toe the line. Fanboi.

Re:needless (rant mostly) (2, Interesting)

Knight2K (102749) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355704)

My first thought was: "Gee how original! Hadn't heard of a good idea like that since.... Mac OS X maybe."

I'd be surprised if they really went wild with 3d interfaces like the 'Jurassic Park' file browser, or the cube with web pages mapped on it that was posted here awhile ago. I think they are just going to do what Apple has already done and what Keith Packard is working on for X-Windows.

You are probably right. Microsoft will only use it for flashy effects. At least Apple eventually got to arguably useful things like Expose. But they had to put Quartz Extreme in place first before they could do it.

I'm not inclined to be charitable, but hopefully this is Microsoft laying the groundwork for interesting and useful user interface ideas.

Naaaah, that is too nice.

Start menu - loading please wait (4, Funny)

g0dsp33d (849253) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355623)

In other news, Microsoft issues critical security warnings about bugs that let hackers run 3D viruses and worms natively in windows.

Great, but. (5, Interesting)

PenchantToLurk (694161) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355629)

I've used Windows since 3.0. I'm a Windows (.Net) developer. And I agree that the gee-whiz factor will be great. Animations, depth to menus... it'll be gorgeous.

But... It doesn't matter how fast computers get, Windows Explorer Shell always seems to become less snappy, even on fresh installs. XP made the start menu slower than ever as it retrieves nonessential metadata on the shortcuts. Myriad Shell extensions, over time, bring the Explorer UI to a crawl.

Sexy is great, but I have to use it every day. It's just not worth making the UI dog even worse.

Re:Great, but. (1)

emjoi_gently (812227) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355721)

And I feel the same way about MacOS X. Too much wizbangery detracts from the purpose of the computer. Widgets start to take up too much screen real-estate, and eat up too much RAM and CPU time.

With Windows 2000, MS got it's UI about right. But plain and functional doesn't sell upgrades.

OS X Anyone? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355638)

This is exactly the same sort of visual eye candy that is currently in OS X. Why is it when Apple does this sort of thing (and several years ago, when entry-level video cards much less powerful), nobody complains, but when Microsoft tries to do it once pretty much every graphics card will support it (probably all cards will by the time Longhorn is released), they get bashed?

Oh, right, Slashdot. I forgot.

3D Interfaces? (1)

NoodleSlayer (603762) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355644)

... Really. How much 3D are you going to stuff on a display that except in a very few rare cases isn't able to display more then two dimensions?

Mac OS X makes use of some 3D hardware for slight tricks when the hardware is there (on a G4 or G5 it will use a rotating box effect when logging in or switching users, on a G3 it won't) and I'm sure there's some acceleration used in Expose to move windows around although that works on all the macs I've tried it on, but what exactly could they possibly do 3D wise that would make me want to switch from the classic interface circa Windows 2000 that I use on every box with WinXP on it that I have and will most likely use on any longhorn box I get in the future.

Re:3D Interfaces? (4, Informative)

akac (571059) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355696)

No, not 3D interfaces in the way you're thinking. Think of it this way: every window is now an DirectX object. No need for redrawing by an app. Since every window is now a 3D object (one with only one pixel depth), you can do simple things like moving all the maintenance of a windows' DC from the app itself to the OS.

That's what Quartz Extreme does on OS X. This is just Quartz Extreme on PC.

Re:3D Interfaces? (1)

CoolMoDee (683437) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355715)

It cubes here on a 900MHz g3 iBook. It isn't cpu that the cube effect is concerned with, but rather the gpu. It runs smooth here with a Radeon 7500 (massive old).

Microsoft has given out more specific requirements (1)

aceh0 (646013) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355648)

Back at WinHEC in May (and before I believe) Microsoft gave out some more specific details about what the graphical requirements for Longhorn would be. Here's a summary [neoseeker.com] of the what they were expecting hardware requirements to look like. There is a more detailed version buried on their site somewhere but I'm too lazy to dig it up

Is this necessary (2, Insightful)

digitalgimpus (468277) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355651)

Am I one of the only ones who prefers usability, stability, and performance... to eye candy?

I'd rather it work on an old ATI Rage PRO.

Why?

Simply because that means good performance for modern computing. If the minimum is "latest and greatest"... Ugh.

Nor do I like the idea of upgrading hardware around my OS. If anything I want to upgrade because I need it for my job. Not because of some 3D glitter covered start menu.

Call me crazy... but performance is much more important.

Why doesn't Microsoft invest this effort in security?

If they said getting a new more powerful computer would make me more secure (perhaps some integrated trojan detection... integrated tightly)... yea, I could see that being beneficial.

But do I really need to get new hardware... for eye candy?

Come on Microsoft. Less is more.

Re:Is this necessary (1)

Obiwan Kenobi (32807) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355742)

There are these things called video games. Look real sweet on your PC. They need good video 'cards' (get it? video games, video cards, its all video related), and if MS wants to give me a pretty desktop in pseudo-reward for blowing $300+ on a NVideo Deathbringer 5k, then I'm happy about that.

Call me crazy.

Re:Is this necessary (1)

ThisNukes4u (752508) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355754)

I completely agree. Having a desktop that is not great on eye candy but usable is far preferable to an eye candy filled desktop that is even a bit less useable. I'd much rather see the desktop get more responsive and feel quicker as hardware speed increases rather than have the look improve but the "snappiness" stay the same or go down. It is always nice to be able to have an eye candy filled desktop, thats for sure, but there needs to be a way to get rid of it when not needed. Microsoft did it in XP, and I have heard people say they get a fairly big performace boost by turning of the lunar interface and going to classic, but I don't know if they will be smart enough for Longhorn. For me, Linux and BSD give me the best of all worlds: twm and blackbox for pure speed, fluxbox, icewm, enlightenment, xfce, etc.. for speed and usability, and GNOME/KDE for raw features and still being reasonably quick even on slightly underpowered hardware. And as soon as 3D acceleration drivers get better and stabler under linux, we have X extensions such as compositing for even more eye candy.

Prices (2, Interesting)

Sophrosyne (630428) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355665)

Watch those PC prices go up for a little bit... then potentially drop- but ATI and Nvidia would be smart to cash in on this-- maybe bundle Longhorn with video-cards and extra ram.

Big Deal. (2, Insightful)

huber (723453) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355667)

How is this different from Apples Quartz Extreame or soon to be realeased Core Image? Its not. It the natural evolution of things. While naysayers will shout "idont need this" and " Its not productive" , When you have several CPU Intensive apps open and running, wouldn't it be nice to know that your otherwise unused gpu is taking care of your windowing?

But what about the high end audio cards???? (1)

EnronHaliburton2004 (815366) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355679)

and 3D menus and interfaces that require atleast Shader 2.0 compliant cards

What about the high end audio cards so my computer can say "DooWeeeeeeeeeeooooooooOOOOO! BOOP!" as the cool 3-D Start Menu pops up when I hit the Start button and then another "BOOP! OOOOOooooooooeeeeeeewwwwDooo..." when I close the Start Menu?

Dude! That would be so cool!

DooWeeeeeeeeeeooooooooOOOOO! BOOP!
BOOP! OOOOOooooooooeeeeeeewwwwDooo...
DooWeeeeeeeeeeooo oooooOOOOO! BOOP!
BOOP! OOOOOooooooooeeeeeeewwwwDooo...

Why do I suspect that every time I log into a Longhorn machine, it's going to take me 10 minutes to turn off the green & blue start menu, SHOW all icons on the desktop, turn off personalized menus, and all this other stupid anti-productivity shit ... just to get a decent, usable desktop ...

BSOD (4, Funny)

datafr0g (831498) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355681)

Wow! A 3D Blue Screen of Death? That would look really cool with Shader 2.0

Why spend $200-400 on a new card? (4, Insightful)

csoto (220540) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355691)

Just plunk down $500 for a Minimac.

Quartz Extreme makes good use of the graphic hardware of any Mac. Many applications use this to their advantage.

The new Inactive Desktop? (1)

localroger (258128) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355702)

I suspect this will just be another thing I have to turn off in order to use a new computer. The list is already getting pretty long:
  • Start menu --> Classic Mode
  • Screen --> Themes --> Windows Classic
  • Background --> anything simple and non-distracting
  • Appearance --> Effects --> disable transition effects, font smoothing, shadows, and alt-underline hiding (this is the kind of "enhancement" that most likely requires the video extravagance in Longhorn)
  • Screen Saver --> NONE (ain't LCD monitors wonderful?)
  • In Explorer, Tools --> Folder Options --> View --> Don't hide the fucking file extensions, show hidden and system files
  • Search --> turn off animated character
That's the start -- not counting all the shit I have to turn off in MSoffice and various other applications to make the computer an environment for work that is not constantly annoying and distracting. Sounds like I'll have to turn off even more crap when Longhorn comes out, if our company is still stuck in Windoze land (which, alas and for good reasons, it probably will be).

Not the end of UI evolution (1)

Neo-Rio-101 (700494) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355706)

A command line is good enough for me, but I suppose that when you think about it, a 2 dimensional graphical user desktop display is not really the be all and end all interfacing with a computer. It was as good as it was going to get when hardware was more expensive and slower... but to think that the GUI desktop is the end of computer evolution is very premature IMHO. We have the technology....

There are so many ways that the technology can be pushed, that Microsoft actually *may* end up innovating something here.
OK, they have a really poor track record at innovation so far, but MS has more money, expertise, and will than anyone else to throw around on evolving the GUI. Something interesting may come out of it.
Whether ordinary PC users can benefit from it remains to be seen....

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for my fully-featured DOOM UI so I can blow up old log files, and camp near the ethernet ports and cover my team engineer from while he switches the default gateway to the new firewall appliance.

Microsoft never was good at copying Apple... (5, Interesting)

Dominic_Mazzoni (125164) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355707)

Is this going to be another case of where Microsoft tries to copy Apple, but misses the point?

Mac OS X 10.2 introduced "Quartz Extreme", which uses your graphics card to composite your screen. This meant that dragging windows around now required almost no CPU power at all. In 10.3, they introduced several 3-D effects to enhance the interface - most notably a rotating cube when you switch users.

There are two key points that Microsoft seems to be missing, though:

* Mac OS X looks exactly the same if you don't have a powerful enough graphics card, and screen redrawing is not too slow. Having a graphics card just makes the system more responsive because the CPU is doing less of the work.

* The system degrades gracefully - if you don't have a powerful enough graphics card or run out of video RAM, certain 3D transitions may be skipped. But everything will still function, and everything will look the same.

It's too early to tell, but it is starting to sound like Microsoft may be creating a new interface that requires a super graphics card, leaving those with only cheap integrated video with a completely different interface. To me that sounds like a recipe for tech support hell - novice users won't understand why their screen doesn't look like someone else's.

Okay, but... (1)

geekfat (848401) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355736)

Will graphic card companies make Longhorn a priority? I have an Emachines M6809 laptop with an ATI Mobility Radeon 9600 video chip. This is a 64-bit machine. A week ago, I gave the XP 64 bit pre-release a try, with the beta ATI drivers. The drivers did not offer a 1280x800 resolution, which works best (for me) on this laptop. I went right back to Linux, as Xorg has supported this resolution for a long time....

who cares anymore? Linux is taking over (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11355759)

I don't think this will be still relevant. If things continue at the current pace the Windows OS will be dead by end of this year and the planned Longhorn version will not be able to change this. Linux is taking over our desktops and I am happy to see this happening.

Windows Longhorn to make Linux more important (0, Troll)

Eric Smith (4379) | more than 9 years ago | (#11355762)

Enough said.
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