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Opera Claims Microsoft Has Poor Interoperability

Zonk posted more than 9 years ago | from the tit-for-tat dept.

Microsoft 316

Noksagt writes "Opera CTO Hakon Lie has countered the claims that Bill Gates made regarding Microsoft's superior interoperability last week. He points out their invalid webpages, MS's unwillingness to serve the same content to different browsers, IE's poor CSS support, tardy documentation and limitations of their XML format, and more." From the article: "You say you believe in interoperability. Why then, did you terminate the Web Core Fonts initiative you started in 1996? You deserve credit for starting it, but why close down a project which could have given you yet much good will? (Verdana sucks, but Georgia is beautiful!)"

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You Dad Sucks Syndrome (5, Interesting)

fembots (753724) | more than 9 years ago | (#11654992)

After .Net sucks [slashdot.org] and Solaris, JVM suck too [slashdot.org] , I believe we're entering a new era in 2005, where litigation is a past tense.

It's just so much easier, and more importantly cheaper, to attack competitors like this.

Re:You Dad Sucks Syndrome (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11655004)

you really meant to say

First post!

Re:You Dad Sucks Syndrome (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11655118)

If you think IE sucks, then be loud and proud about it. But don't bitch here, go over to the IEBlog [msdn.com] and give them a piece of your mind.

No Shit (-1, Troll)

Alan Partridge (516639) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655000)

Sherlock

Re:No Shit (-1, Offtopic)

Alan Partridge (516639) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655084)

I like a nice troll as much as the next man, but that wasn't one. I think the moderators of this story need a bit of a sit down.

Re:No Shit (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11655162)

mods on slashdot have gone downmarket as of late, same with the editors and quality of the comments. its become quite frankly little more then a " we hate ms " club , caring very little about anything else. its like 12 yr olds have taken over and are very very angry with the world

Tomorrow on slashdot (-1, Offtopic)

Phil246 (803464) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655006)

leading scientists reveal that water is ... WET!

Seriously - is this a suprise to anyone here?

I'm tired of Microsoft bashing (0, Flamebait)

OccidentalSlashy (809265) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655009)

Let's PRAISE Microsoft instead.

Re:I'm tired of Microsoft bashing (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11655021)

For what?

Re:I'm tired of Microsoft bashing (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11655042)

They're the best spin doctors in town, you have to admit that much...

Re:I'm tired of Microsoft bashing (1)

Jugalator (259273) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655023)

Let's PRAISE Microsoft instead.

Wouldn't that be off topic if done as comments to this article? ;-)

Re:I'm tired of Microsoft bashing (5, Funny)

NanoGator (522640) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655170)

"Let's PRAISE Microsoft instead."

I'm so glad Microsoft brought Opera to my attention! Go Microsoft!!

Re:I'm tired of Microsoft bashing (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11655187)

How about we stop trying to attach Microsoft to every Slashdot article? Dear god this is getting old. It is a form of flattery to need to mention that company all the time.

Re:I'm tired of Microsoft bashing (2, Funny)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655222)

Nah ... it's free advertising. Why else do you think Microsoft has let Slashdot live?

Re:I'm tired of Microsoft bashing (1)

gotr00t (563828) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655342)

then stop reading slashdot... geez, what easier solution do you need?

Really... (0)

Sabathius (566108) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655012)

Ya Think?

SELECT obvious
FROM news
WHERE isATroll = 'TRUE'

I have to see this one! (5, Funny)

bigtallmofo (695287) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655018)

I'm not much into the fine arts, but someone's written an opera about Microsoft's poor interoperability?!

I can't wait to hear the fat lady sing in this one!

Re:I have to see this one! (5, Funny)

Sabathius (566108) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655033)


The "fat lady is hoarse form singing, my friend.

Re:I have to see this one! (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11655052)

Strange, I only knew there was this song...

What a Microsoft World

Don't know much about my CPU,
Don't know what a DIMM's supposed to do,
Don't know what a hard disk is for,
Don't know how to overclock my core;
But I do know that Microsoft rules,
'cuz that's what they taught us all in school,
Oh, What a Microsoft world it must be.

Don't know why my screen is always blue,
Don't know what these damn exceptions do,
Don't know why my modem runs so slow,
What it's sending out I just don't know;
But I do know what the salesman said,
Once I save enough to finally upgrade,
What a wonderful world it will be.

What would the BOFH do?

Re:I have to see this one! (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11655099)

If you get bored of fine arts, and prefer hearing something funny, check out some of the trolling done by IE developers at the IE Blog.

IEBlog [msdn.com]

It makes for great comedy.

WARNING: Could cause serious coffee splurtage.

Re:I have to see this one! (3, Funny)

magic_finale (858891) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655108)

sorry can't help it :P Ballmer: Bill, i've got a good news and a bad news.. Bill: what's it? Ballmer: Opera just bitched about our poor interoperability on slashdot... Bill: ... what's the good news? Ballmer: i just saved money on my car insurance...

Re:I have to see this one! (1)

value_added (719364) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655132)

Err, I'll bet you're not into the "performing arts" either.

Re:I have to see this one! (5, Funny)

Xeo 024 (755161) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655255)

I can't wait to hear the fat lady sing in this one!
If by fat lady you mean Steve Ballmer, then I can't wait either.

MS interoperability (2, Informative)

Rosco P. Coltrane (209368) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655024)

MS's unwillingness to serve the same content to different browsers

Well I can vouch for that: there is just no way I can access my Hotmail account with Mozilla, and it seems a dicey affair with Konq. However, for some reason (ahem...), it works just great with IE :-)

Oh well, nothing new here. Remember the DRDOS case against Microsoft? They claimed Windows couldn't interoperate without MSDOS 7 too, yet it could. It's a classic case of Microsoft trying to maintain its monopolies by messing with standards to its advantage.

Re:MS interoperability (4, Informative)

dicepackage (526497) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655050)

I have had no trouble getting Hotmail to work in Mozilla Firefox. You might want to try using a more recent version of Mozilla if you aren't already using the most up to date version.

Re:MS interoperability (2, Informative)

Rosco P. Coltrane (209368) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655096)

I use Mozilla 1.7.5 and it doesn't work. If you point out to me what I might be doing wrong, I'd appreciate. I've try enabling cookies and whatnot, to no avail.

Note that it's not much of a problem really, since I use Gotmail to redirect stuff coming to my Hotmail account to my main POP3 account :-) The Hotmail one is just to subscribe to annoying spam-prone internet services.

Re:MS interoperability (1)

dicepackage (526497) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655198)

That is really odd. It might be something configured wrong but I can't think of anything offhand. I have been able to get it working in Suse, Mandrake, Fedora, and Gentoo.

Re:MS interoperability (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11655298)

Since when is browsing a site a sign of interoperability? That's compatability.

Re:MS interoperability (1)

cyberformer (257332) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655217)

Works for me too. The only non-spyware site I've found that won't work with Firefox is WIndowsupdate. (On the public Internet, at least. Intranets have all kinds of horrible IE-only or MS-JVM apps.)

The issue is that, according to Opera's CEO, some MS sites are deliberately serving broken HTML if the browser identifies itself as Opera. When Opera tells the site it's IE (or Firefox, or anything else), the sites work fine.

Re:MS interoperability (1)

Penguinoflight (517245) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655270)

walla.com hasn't worked in mozilla for sending email for a while. As a whole, mozilla still provides better compatibility. Microsoft pretty well set a precident that monopolizing is ok with their netscape crashing back in the win9x days, so I dont see how they'll get stuck with anything now.

Re:MS interoperability (1)

peeon (743159) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655285)

You should try downloading an attachment through hotmail. It requests me to always re-login.

Hotmail in Moz, etc. (2, Informative)

Noksagt (69097) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655082)

Hotmail works for me in Firefox on win32, OS X, Linux, and FreeBSD. Using Opera on all of the same platforms, I could not use the new delete messages feature that is touched on in the article:
You say you believe in interoperability. Why does the Hotmail service deny Opera access to the same scripts as Microsoft's own browser? As a result, Opera users can't delete junk mail.

Re:MS interoperability (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11655087)

I used to have the problem getting into Hotmail with Mozilla. No problems, however, with the newer versions.

I don't have problems getting in with Firefox 1.0 either.

Still, you have to ask the question why any version would have an issue.

Re:MS interoperability (1)

Lisandro (799651) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655100)

I wouldn't be surprised - Microsoft already did this with Hotmail and Opera. [slashdot.org] . I can't find a link for it, but i'm pretty sure they ended up settling it.

Re:MS interoperability (5, Informative)

Lisandro (799651) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655208)

And more info here [opera.com] , where the Opera crew explains how M$ deliberately cripples www.msn.com pages.

Re:MS interoperability (-1, Troll)

AnonymousCactus (810364) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655269)

Or maybe it's a case of them being lazy and not bothering to support other browsers because they realize (correctly) that this will allow some 60-70% of users to access Hotmail. If you're not one of them then support other free email providers that do display correctly on your browser. Microsoft runs itself as a business (and I argue that's good...) and there's little reason for them to spend money catering to your wishes if there's no reason for them to...not to mention the fact that your argument can be reversed, as in Mozilla is trying to exclude MS fans by not displaying Hotmail's page correctly. Ludicrous and far-fetched? Yes, but only a little more than your claim.

What about google? (2, Insightful)

ad0gg (594412) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655330)

Last time i checked maps.google.com doesn't work in opera. I don't see the guys from opera or anyone else complaining about this.

I speak for people *everywhere* when I say ... (2, Insightful)

phoxix (161744) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655030)

Verdana rocks

Sunny Dubey
(not a technical font person etc etc)

Re:I speak for people *everywhere* when I say ... (1)

jbarket (530468) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655049)

Thank god somebody said this already.

I do web application development, and I'm pretty anal about text formatting, and I tend to use Verdana for the majority of my content areas.

Verdana for the win!

Use sans-serif, don't hardcode fonts (5, Insightful)

Velmont (846689) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655252)

I'm quite frustrated when people hardcode in fonts - even linuxsites code in font's that really look awful on a (my, at least :p) linux system. Use the css attribute font-family: sans-serif instead of font-family: Arial, Verdana, sans-serif! Then we (who actually browse the pages) can choose our favourite fonts. I like Bitstream Vera Sans for sans-serif fonts.

Re:I speak for people *everywhere* when I say ... (2)

KillerDeathRobot (818062) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655088)

Though Georgia's nice enough (and seems awful trendy), I have to agree that Verdana is nice.

Re:I speak for people *everywhere* when I say ... (1)

BladeMelbourne (518866) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655172)

Indeed, it is very readable and looks pretty good on screen. As a web developer it's usually one of the first fonts to appear in my CSS, along with Arial and Helvetica.

Although, being Slashdot, I feel compelled to mention Gnome's Bitstream Vera fonts. Bitstream Vera Sans looks great on a web page, and Bitstream Vera Sans Mono is a good choice to code with. You can get them as TTF files at the following URL: http://www.gnome.org/fonts/ [gnome.org]

Re:I speak for people *everywhere* when I say ... (1)

Tet (2721) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655303)

I feel compelled to mention Gnome's Bitstream Vera fonts.

Sadly for me, they fall into the "so close, and yet so far" category. Vera Serif[1] is probably the most readable font I've ever seen on a screen. It is a thing of beauty. But the lack of italics makes it lack viability for common uses. I really hope this will be addressed soon.

[1] No, I don't understand the obsession with using sans-serif fonts on web pages. It hinders readability. The serifs are there for a reason, to help guide the eye, and assist the brain to pattern match. They didn't work on low resolution screens, but on today's displays, using sans-serif fonts just doesn't make sense for prose.

Re:I speak for people *everywhere* when I say ... (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11655169)

Verdana is a good screen font (what it was designed for in fact), but sucks for print. Georgia is nice too though, both on screen, and in print. I prefer Microsoft's bastardisation of Helvetica, Arial, however.

Re:I speak for people *everywhere* when I say ... (1)

PerlDudeXL (456021) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655261)

I, for one, disagree.

the characters look a little too wide.

The default font in Windows looks really nice and is very readable for such a small font. The way fonts are rendered in windows is not that bad and in some ways better than under X11.

(did I just say that I like Microsoft for something?)

Actually (1, Funny)

baryon351 (626717) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655032)

(Verdana sucks, but Georgia is beautiful!

Actually verdana is the better font, and georgia is weak & problematic.

Re:Actually (2, Informative)

buro9 (633210) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655062)

Except Verdana was designed for lower resolution, to replace small fonts.

I love the way Verdana looks, but when I make pages using it and switch from a Windows environment to my home Linux environment, all the fonts are the wrong size!

Verdana does suck because of they way in which it is disproportionately sized relative to other font sizes... which is why it is great when small, but it does indeed suck when increased in size.

Re:Actually (2, Informative)

moresheth (678206) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655284)

I think you have the right idea about it. Fonts have to be made for specific purposes, and it often takes some careful thinking about which ones to use when, and at what size.

I'm something of a TypeNazi, so I thought it was funny seeing "Verdana sucks, but Georgia is beautiful!" in the story. What most people probably don't know is that they were created by the same designer.

Say hello to Matthew Carter [google.com] .

Re:Actually (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11655066)

Actually verdana is the better font, and georgia is weak & problematic.

I'd say... [vocaboly.com] Where is Verdana again though?

Verdana is so aught-one (2, Insightful)

commodoresloat (172735) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655282)

Lucida Grande is the new Verdana.

Re:Actually (4, Informative)

JimDabell (42870) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655290)

Verdana is a better font, but not for the web. The problem is that it has a higher aspect value than most other fonts. This means that at a smaller size it still remains legible where other fonts may not. It also means that at a normal size, it appears to be quite a bit larger than other fonts.

The problem is that web designers can't specify any particular font and assume that the web browser will honour that request. There are lots of different reasons why a different font may be substituted for the originally requested one.

This means that if a web designer specifies Verdana for small text, another font could be used in its place, resulting in unreadable text. If a web designer specifies Verdana for normal text, people will think that it's ugly because it's too big. There really aren't that many situations where Verdana is an appropriate choice for web designers.

None of this is to say that it isn't a nice font; I personally use it throughout most of KDE. But it's not a good choice for the Web Core Fonts collection.

Opera has had first-hand experience with Microsoft breaking interoperability. At one point, Microsoft were deliberately serving broken CSS to Opera that would cause it to mess up the layout for that one particular browser [opera.com] .

Re:Actually (1)

krunk4ever (856261) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655297)

I love Verdana! It's one of the better fonts overall (better than Arial imo) and I even have it as the default font for all my menus and icon text.

I can't believe that you said Verdana sucks (besides the fact maybe microsoft owns it).

Microsoft is not about using standards (0, Flamebait)

Joelphil (846067) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655036)

thats why proprietary software is bad. there is no way for the consumer to benefit from the software.

Re:Microsoft is not about using standards (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Brave Guy (457657) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655114)

there is no way for the consumer to benefit from the [proprietary] software.

That is simply not true. From a customer perspective, I would rather have one good proprietary solution that serves my needs than a dozen mediocre but interoperable ones. I only need one at once!

Re:Microsoft is not about using standards (4, Insightful)

^Case^ (135042) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655312)

Right... until one day your favourite proprietor goes out of business or simply decides there's not enough money to be made on your piece of software. Soon after you're going to need to move your data to some other piece of software because it has this new killer feature. That day you will start wishing you opted for something just a little more interoperable.

Re:Microsoft is not about using standards (4, Insightful)

NanoGator (522640) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655138)

"thats why proprietary software is bad. there is no way for the consumer to benefit from the software."

It's also why ambiguous standards are bad. Anybody else read the little blurb a few years ago about how no browser (Netscape, IE, etc....) passed the standards test completely?

At last the truth is told (2, Informative)

toby (759) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655055)

Verdana does suck. Especially on paper - it should never, ever, be seen off the screen.

Re:At last the truth is told (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11655305)

It's interesting that people try to compare a sans-serif and a serif font, when they are designed for different purposes.

Sans-serif fonts are good for reading things on screen, for slides in a conference and such. Big letters are easier to read if they're sans-serif too. Serif fonts are good for small size and large amounts of text.

Usually newspapers use sans-serif for titles and serif for the rest of the text. Some of them only use serif fonts for everything, but I do think sans-serif is better for big text.

Bill 2.0 For President (-1, Redundant)

Space_Soldier (628825) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655074)

I think that William Henry Gates III should run for president because he surely talks like a politician. He talks the talk, but he does not walk the walk!

Re:Bill 2.0 For President (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11655093)

sure, if you want to see mandatory use of windows and office ( insert other microsoft products here ) written into law :) oh , and of course it would be illegal not to *buy* it at some outrageously bloated price

Of course they terminated Web Core Fonts (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11655078)

Now you can only get them with Windows. Just like a drug pusher... the first one's free, then you pay, and only from them.

Re:Of course they terminated Web Core Fonts (4, Informative)

nuclear305 (674185) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655120)

Fortunately for us, there actually is a way to get Windows fonts on Linux.

http://corefonts.sourceforge.net/ [sourceforge.net]

Long Live Verdana!

Re:Of course they terminated Web Core Fonts (1)

Jorkapp (684095) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655331)

...and they make you pay multiple times for the same product. Case-and-point: Windows.

Windows 2000 (NT v5.0)
Windows XP (NT v5.1)
Windows Server 2003 (NT v5.2)

I payed for Windows 2000 and pirated Windows XP when I lost my Win2k CD's. No way in hell am I paying for the NT 5 kernel twice/thrice. Bring on the NT 6 kernel and I'll consider shelling out some dough.

Georgia (1)

bayerwerke (513829) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655080)

Georgia is beautiful? Ick!

Profit, profit, profit.... (0, Troll)

MMaestro (585010) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655086)

Why then, did you terminate the Web Core Fonts initiative you started in 1996? You deserve credit for starting it, but why close down a project which could have given you yet much good will?

Because Microsoft is out to make money first, establish standards for its own purposes second and do acts of good deeds somewhere down the line... if they feel like it. Quit barking up the money tree. There are movie stars, politicians, and other millionares who practice the same type of anti-competition methods. I can hardly see how this news 'matters'.

Re:Profit, profit, profit.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11655195)

Out to make money... what, just like Opera?

Verdana (4, Insightful)

twistedcubic (577194) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655104)

Maybe verdana does suck, but reading serif fonts on a computer screen causes a lot more eye strain than reading sans serif fonts. Of course, serif fonts like Georgia look good on paper, but on a computer screen, I think sans-serif fonts are much better.

Serif vs. sans-serif (4, Informative)

Anonymous Brave Guy (457657) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655154)

I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about what makes fonts easy to read. The reason both Verdana and Georgia are easier for most people to read on a screen has more to do with being well-hinted, being designed to avoid warts at the relatively low resolutions in use, and having a large x-height. None of these is particularly true of obvious alternatives like Times Roman and Helvetica/Arial on most of today's systems. The presence or absence of serifs has relatively little to do with it.

More surprisingly, some research has suggested that serifs don't actually help much on paper either, at least for shorter works. They do seem to boost reading ease in long, blocky works like novels, but for something like a magazine article or a short paper, reading ease isn't much of an indicator one way or the other.

Dave Hyatt on IE ruining Web coding (5, Informative)

bonch (38532) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655107)

Dave Hyatt, who writes a blog about his development on Apple's Safari [mozillazine.org] , has an amusing anecdote about developing CSS2 support in Safari, and how IE's piss-poor support of standards forced him to remove it in Safari.

From the blog:

"Sometimes trying to support the standards can be a real pain.

While trying to improve our CSS2 compliance, I recently did a big cleanup of our block layout code, including the code for handling floats. I made what I believed to be a fairly innocuous correction to follow the CSS2 specification. Here's the scenario.

Lets say you have a div that is set to 300 pixels in CSS. You then put a 250 pixel wide float inside that div. Immediately after that you have a 100 pixel wide overflow:hidden div. All sizes have been specified in CSS.

Now here's the pop quiz. What do you think the layout should be? Should the overflow div:
(a) Be on the same line with the float and spill out of the enclosing 300 pixel div
(b) Be placed underneath the float, automatically clearing it because there is insufficient space for
the overflow div next to the float

Before I give an answer, lets see what the CSS specification has to say on this issue. Section 9.5 on floats, fifth paragraph.

'The margin box of a table or an element in the normal flow that establishes a new block formatting context (such as an element with 'overflow' other than 'visible') must not overlap any floats in the same block formatting context as the element itself. If necessary, implementations should clear the said element by placing it below any preceding floats, but may place it adjacent to such floats if there is sufficient space.'

My interpretation of this language is that there must be sufficient space for the table or overflow:hidden element to fit within the containing block. If not, you should clear. That's what I implemented. So in my opinion the correct answer to the question above is (b).

I decided to see what other browsers did. I started with Gecko. Gecko chose (a). Gecko always does (a). It is at least consistent if - in my humble opinion - incorrect. Gecko chooses (a) regardless of whether you pick strict, almost strict or quirks mode.

Next I tried WinIE, and this is the part that blew my mind. Depending on whether the float was an image or a table, the float was left or right aligned, the table specified that it floated via the align attribute or the float CSS property, and on whether or not the normal flow element was declared as a sibling or not of the float, I could get completely different results! The level of inconsistency was astonishing.

I was able to watch WinIE do clipping in one case, to wrap in a second case, to not wrap in a third case, to overwrite content in a fourth case, all by just tweaking the parameters outlined above. It's no wonder Web designers have no idea how to code a page to standards when they have to deal with a layout engine that is so horribly inconsistent and buggy.

Naively I opted to implement (b) and to hope for the best. Unfortunately the bugs immediately started pouring in. finance.yahoo.com was broken for example because it used an old-style align table and relied on it not wrapping underneath the float. Undaunted, I simply added a strict mode/quirks mode check and opted to do (a) in quirks mode and (b) in strict mode.

The bugs kept coming in though. Next was versiontracker.com, a page that is actually in strict mode and relies on an overflow:hidden div to spill out of a containing block rather than wrapping.

So now I really have no choice. This is an example of where the CSS2 standard simply can't be followed because buggy layout engines have set a bad precedent that the rest of us have no choice but to follow.

It's a shame that Gecko does not do the right thing in strict mode at least, but I suppose they had no choice in the matter either."

Microsoft is dead meat (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11655125)

Bill Gates knows exactly that Microsoft has peaked and is going downhill since end of last year: http://abcnews.go.com/Business/print?id=88655 Now he is resorting to blatant lies in the hope of delaying the fate of his sinking ship. I am just glad I sold my MSFT stocks in time...

Re:Microsoft is dead meat (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11655150)

you had shares in MSFT in the first place?
SHAME ON YOU

Re:Microsoft is dead meat (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11655152)

Darn right, buddy. I should have done the same last week already and my broker called me promptly AFTER(!) closing time yesterday. You surely know what's the first thing I am doing on Monday morning.

LMAO, AGAIN (4, Interesting)

TK2K (834353) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655137)

LMAO
I have to say, i really wasn't expecting that hostel of a letter to be put out by opera, but its funny as hell.
This is almost as bad as when Microsoft made IE part of your operating system. before (in win98 ) you could remove IE and get it to still work, now, if you remove it you virtually kiss your OS goodbye.
Its all part of their strategy, like donating computers to schools, your not being nice, your getting kids hooked on MS word at age 8! I have to say, Microsoft is one of the best companies ever if you just look at what they do as a business, but their products are crap.
unfortunetly, its the only crap that will play half life 2 ^_^

Re:LMAO, AGAIN (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11655274)

Nope, got it to work with cedega under gentoo (flame away), with no effort. Installed cedega, opened terminal, CD'ed into steam directory, ran cedega STEAM.exe. tata... runs like a charm. so does battlefield, doom3, neverwinter nights & ut2k4 (no cedega, native), warcraft III, halflife 1 & cs, WoW, and anarchy online.

But whatever...

Opera Compatibility (1, Interesting)

Capricous (847089) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655145)

I would like to see some compatibility of Opera with the standards of new sites like gmail. I use Opera myself and the browser is known for its great compatibility. I am still waiting for MS to release the NTFS format for those who do Dual Booting.

Re:Opera Compatibility (1)

peeon (743159) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655310)

Gmail support is in 7.60 beta and later version. Beta versions [opera.com] I just don't know why the beta phase is taking so long, maybe since 8.0 is coming soon.

Heh (1)

NanoGator (522640) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655158)

What's funny is that this is the same company that released a 'Bork [opera.com] ' version of their browser.

Blah BLAH BLAH (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11655167)

Boo hoo Microsoft Boo hoo.. blah blah.

Can we talk about something else?

Georgia? (2, Funny)

MostlyHarmless (75501) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655171)

Quoth the summary:

"Verdana sucks, but Georgia is beautiful!"


The author obviously has never been to Atlanta. :-p

Re:Georgia? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11655334)

Hey, there are some VERY HOT women in atlanta. If I'm paying attention to the geographic and non-female scenery, I'm in the wrong place.

MS vs /. (5, Interesting)

the_mighty_$ (726261) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655181)

...He points out their invalid webpages...


It looks like MSN's markup [htmlhelp.com] is more valid then Slashdot's [htmlhelp.com] is.

Re:MS vs /. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11655318)

Um, Hardly...MSN's page crashed their validator, I suggest you look at the results again...

AC

Marketing (0, Redundant)

northcat (827059) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655183)

It's just Opera's dirty marketing tactics. Even when it's against a company you hate, it's still a dirty marketing tactic.

Exactly (1)

Rui del-Negro (531098) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655314)

This is Opera abusing its position as a market leader to try to lock poor Microsoft into those evil open standards!

RMN
~~~

is the shit going to hit the fan? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11655185)

I am becoming increasinly concerned about one of the two investment funds I got last year. The larger one has a fair share of Microsoft stocks in the fund portfolio. Any reason to worry yet?

Microsoft has 'McInteroperability' (4, Interesting)

Foktip (736679) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655210)

i remember the good old days. opera died after firefox showed up - but whenever you used opera, you could just tell by the feel of it, that Windows had bad interoperability... Netscape and early mozilla had the same feel. it felt like it just didnt belong, as if it was a tresspasser compared to IE. Microsoft has 'McInteroperability'. Thats like interoperability only it only goes one way. Eg: -DirectX ONLY runs on Windows (TM), and is the industry standard. -NTFS _was_ only useable by windows. -MS Office only runs on windows -MS programs inherently run 5x faster than any competitors programs (something to do with APIs) Overall, microsoft doesnt really understand what interoperability means in the first place - they probably think it means "capability to run under MS Windows(TM)" - like Apache, PHP, Mysql, Firefox, Openoffice, etc.

Re:Microsoft has 'McInteroperability' (0)

Osty (16825) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655316)

DirectX ONLY runs on Windows (TM), and is the industry standard

(Assuming the industry you're referring to is the gaming industry.) I think id and any developer licensing id's engines would disagree with you. Of course, DirectX is more than just 3D rendering, but there's competition in that space as well from SDL, OpenAL, Apple's Quick* framework, etc.

-NTFS _was_ only useable by windows.

NTFS has been readable by Linux for a very long time. That it's not writeable is questionable, but we're also talking about a very small usage scenario -- the need for a dual-booter to access their NTFS volumes from Windows. At the same time, ext2 also has write problems under Windows, so this isn't a one-way street.

MS Office only runs on windows

Actually, MS Office runs perfectly well on Macs, and has done so for years (before it ran on Windows, even).

MS programs inherently run 5x faster than any competitors programs (something to do with APIs)

Bullshit. Yes, there are undocumented kernel-level APIs. I really doubt most Microsoft apps use those, however. If you mean "start up" when you say "run", that's partially true. IE starts up quickly because it's part of Explorer, the Windows shell, and thus already resident in memory. Office doesn't start up quickly the first time you run it, but it does on subsequent runs because it doesn't fully close when you stop it. For example, run Outlook, set it to use Word as the email editor, and send an email. Now, look at Task Manager. Winword.exe is still running, even though there's no window open. There's nothing stopping other applications from doing this same trick. For example, Mozilla can be configured to start a stub at boot, which makes starting the app that much faster. None of this affects how well the applications run post-startup.

Re:Microsoft has 'McInteroperability' (2, Informative)

cnettel (836611) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655350)

Many good points, but I simply can't agree on this one: -MS programs inherently run 5x faster than any competitors programs (something to do with APIs)

What kind of APIs do you really think they use that give such a great speed boost and still are unavailable to everybody else? You know, it's not that hard to track down what the software actually does with debuggers and monitoring tools. Yes, some Microsoft products use some undocumented calls, but they are mainly insignificant. On the other hand, many true performance hogs on Windows systems do absolutely outrageous things, like reading a multi-MB file in few-byte chunks (bad if you do it often), polling the registry constantly even during idle operation, writing to the registry constantly during idle operation, Plain Stupid(TM) painting code doing things like re-enumerating all fonts, rereading all settings and then redrawing the whole window to a off-screen buffer, to then transfer the whole bitmap to screen, preferably with a different color depth so it's not a simple bit transfer operation.

Ok, I've generally not seen all of these in the same application, but if you see one, you're likely to meet some of the other ones. Some of them are in MS applications, most are not. Outlook Express is generally an example of how you should not write a well-performing Windows application, while ICQ, for example, is far, far worse.

I've yet to see that wonderous user-mode behavior that I've no idea how they could implement and which simply must be filled with "illegal" hooks. I take it this is more about of user applications and not stuff like SQL Server and Exchange, but on the other hand I've not seen Oracle crying that high over this, although Windows is not a main platform for their offerings.

Off Topic (0, Offtopic)

zephc (225327) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655216)

I think the Slashdot IT section's caption should be "Whats IT? IT is it!" as a most excellent homage to Faith No More.

The smell of rot... (5, Insightful)

Jahuti (323700) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655219)

It was previously commented that Microsoft is going down the tubes because of several factors, like IE not being updated in years (except for security patches), and Longhorn being way late. This is just another example. The smell of rot from the direction of Redmond is getting stronger.

The free MS fonts live on... (4, Informative)

Col. Bloodnok (825749) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655232)

...in a state of suspended animation here [sourceforge.net]

I prefer Bitstream Vera myself.

For terminals though, I *love* non-smoothed Lucida Typewriter 9 point. Not the Xfree version though (the 'm' and 'w' look wierd), I like the one which comes with Solaris (the standard font used by OpenWindow's cmdtool).

Mmm, functional :).

whine (1)

black mariah (654971) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655263)

The Opera people, people that DEVELOP A FUCKING BROWSER, should know that many websites serve different CSS because NO TWO BROWSERS RENDER THE SAME, and that's just one way around it. Bitching about that is idiotic and smacks of kindergarten age whiny-assing. Do you want interoperability in browser rendering, or do you want web standards that actually do what they were initially intended to do? You get one or the other, not both.

Actually... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11655332)

Actually, if a page is properly coded, it will render almost exactly the same on any standards-compliant browser (this means pretty much every browser _except_ MSIE). Of course, a lot of "professional web developers" wouldn't know legal XHTML / CSS if it shot up their ass.

My Dog... (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11655264)

My dog's better than your dog...

Verdana != Suck! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11655277)

I happen to LIKE Verdana, thankyouveddymuch! I agree that Georgia is gorgeous though.

A little Opera-centric (2, Insightful)

Dorsai65 (804760) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655317)

but that's understandable. He still has a lot of valid points, and does a *fine* job of raking Bill G. over the coals :-)

an opera about microsoft (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11655321)

it's not over until the fat nerd passes out from frustration...

The man's mad ! (0, Offtopic)

Axoiv (747887) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655322)

Seems like it isn't about putting an easy-to-use computer on every mans desk anymore. No no, now it's about putting _his_ windows computer on every mans desk, in every mans hand, mobile phone, game, and god knows what's coming up the abyss next. Can't you all see? The man's gone completely mad!

It is nice to see Opera on the offensive (3, Insightful)

QuietLagoon (813062) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655324)

With the increasing popularity of Firefox, Opera needed to do something to try to reverse its shrinking marketshare of the browser market. It is good to see Opera getting a little of the publicity it so desparately needs.

Opera vs IE (0, Offtopic)

peeon (743159) | more than 9 years ago | (#11655328)

Comparsion [opera.com]
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