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Miguel de Icaza Talks About Mono

Hemos posted more than 9 years ago | from the it's-a-necessary-element dept.

GNOME 596

Matthew Revell writes "Miguel de Icaza defends Mono and talks about its future relationship with the Gnome desktop, in the latest LugRadio. The leader of the open source implementation of .NET says no one is forced to use Mono but he hopes it will make life easier for open source developers. "

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596 comments

well.. (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668203)

we can be sure he didn't getting from kissing anyone, ugly bastard...

Re:well.. (4, Funny)

suso (153703) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668250)

Shouldn't mono be a story for the day after Valentine's day?

Re:well.. (1)

geomon (78680) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668479)

Actually there is a GPL software package released under the name "Herpes" that will debut tomorrow.

Just in time!

FP! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668207)

FOIST POST

frost post (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668208)

lolz # Please try to keep posts on topic. # Try to reply to other people's comments instead of starting new threads. # Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. # Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. # Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page)

Miguel de Icaza Talks About Mono (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668223)

Claims "a couple of penicilin shots and it all cleared up."

(Yes, yes, I know. Mono is a virus, anti-biotics are useless, and many of them are actually dangerous to mono sufferers...)

I had mono once. (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668241)

...was tired for two weeks.

Is he really a big cheese (0)

WillerZ (814133) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668256)

And, since I can't listen to this at work, would someone like to summarise why mono needs to be defended from anything (and what).

Phil

Re:Is he really a big cheese (5, Informative)

Trigun (685027) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668363)

Miguel is the lead developer for gnome, and his pet project was creating a .NET framework for linux. It has since grown to be more than a pet, gaining the backing of Novell. It is not the easiest thing to get running on your system, but by far not the hardest.

It needs to be defended for a number of reasons. Linux zealotry (why would people move from Windows if all the software is cross platform?), laguage zealots (IMHO, C# is a nice language to program in, but the java guys scream bloody hell) and people afraid of MS putting the legal smack down on Linux over API issues,just to name a few.

Personally, I think that Miguel's reliance on WINE is a mistake, but we have discussed this here, and it does have immediate benefits for the windows.forms and directX stuff. I know people who are programming frontends on both Windows and Linux, using a combination of the GTK interface and Windows.forms, and they love it.

Re:Is he really a big cheese (5, Informative)

wizbit (122290) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668425)

WINE support was abandoned in favor of their own SWF implementation, and it's been that way for a while in the development releases. They're developing their own implementation because, yes, it makes things less portable and less stable.

Re:Is he really a big cheese (1)

Trigun (685027) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668640)

Thanks for the update. It's been a while since I played around with it. The last time I spoke to Miguel about it, I was under the impression that the wine libs were there to stay. I guess that I'm a little bit out of date.

I haven't done much mono development lately, and when I did, it was only command-line apps. Maybe it's time to get back into it.

mono (3, Informative)

relluf (722817) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668266)

Mono is a great programming tool, I hope that it manages to find its way into mainstream gnome. It shows alot of promise anyway. I do belive that CLIs are the way to go.

Well, that's a relief. (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668273)

The leader of the open source implementation of .NET says no one is forced to use Mono but he hopes it will make life easier for open source developers.

I thought he was planning on jamming it down our throats and making things harder for us.

Appropriate name (-1, Offtopic)

cybersaga (451046) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668276)

At least it's appropriate that an inplementation of .NET be named after an incredibly contageous virus.

Re:Appropriate name (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668322)

Parent is redundant at worst, it's definately not a troll because it's true!

Patent issues? (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668279)

he hopes it will make life easier for open source developers.

I thought the problem was that Microsoft told everybody that they didn't have any patents on C# or .NET, but they are actually a licensee of somebody else who has patents on it? Miguel dodged the question on this one by simply stating that it was a reimplementation rather than licensing .NET from Microsoft.

Listening to the audio, the things on the horizon are Windows Forms and incremental improvements (tuning). People are porting applications today, usually you can just copy the binary, but ignorant Windows developers do things like screw up path separators, assume case-insensitive systems, etc.

Re:Patent issues? (1)

Morphix84 (797143) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668460)

I'm a .NET Developer during my Coop terms, I'm confused as to what you mean by your statement, as C# is Case Sensitive, so I don't know how you can assume a case insensitive system to port to, if you're not porting from one. Can you clarify please?

Re:Patent issues? (1)

cnettel (836611) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668516)

File system. Just think about assembly names specified inconsistently.

On the other hand, I think that the number of Linux applications relying on a case-sensitive file system and a "/" path separator (which, of course, is accepted in most places in Windows) is also quite high, so this is more the general hassles of porting for an application where it wasn't intended. Hey, you can even put in file system assumptions in a Java-only Windows application.

Re:Patent issues? (3, Informative)

geordie_loz (624942) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668571)

He is referring to the location of files, paths and files in windows are Case Insensitive, but in most other os's it's case sensitive, so:

/C/Windows/AnotherDir/
is not the same as
/c/windows/anotherdir/

see? Not the language but the platform, so path/library locations relying on case insensitivity is the issue..

Re:Patent issues? (1)

Omega1045 (584264) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668616)

As a C# coder I always pay attention to case in the FS. I also use "/" instead of "\\" (or @"\") because windows will understand both. However, there is a lot of code at my company that is not written this way, which is really wierd because all of our programmers also program on Unix.

Patent issues?-Hemophiliac Code. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668477)

"he hopes it will make life easier for open source developers."*

One could argue that Java does the same thing. Of course we all hate Java, right?

*Me, I just use a non-mainstream langue and avoid the whole mess.

Re:Patent issues? (1)

MartinG (52587) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668535)

C# and the CLI are both ECMA and ISO standards. As such, any patents have to be licenced under reasonable and non-discriminatory (RAND) terms.
In this case though, microsoft etc. have gone further and said that they will be made available royalty free in addition.

more info here [archive.org]

Re:Patent issues? (2, Insightful)

alext (29323) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668623)

But he didn't say CLI, he said .NET. .NET is the 90% of the API that's not standard, remember?

Mono Logo = Miguel de Icaza (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668675)

Maybe I'm a little off topic, but:

Don't you think that the Mono logo is a little bit like Miguel De Icaza?

I remember him from Comdex 1999 or 2000, and I think he looks like a chimp. (No offense)

SWF (2, Insightful)

wizbit (122290) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668286)

Mono rocks, and the latest 1.1 branch has support for System.Windows.Forms, the only (that I know of, anyway) cross-platform implementation of the GUI calls from .NET - native calls made on Windows, GDI+ and Cairo for other platforms. Truly a godsend for developing cross-platform apps in C#.

I wish the Mono project and Miguel the best - they have done some excellent, excellent work and deserve to be commended.

Re:SWF (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668389)

Mono sucks, if I wanted .exe and .dll files littered at random throughout my filesystem I'd use windows.

Re:SWF (1)

cortana (588495) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668445)

If you are unable to keep track of the files installed on your system, why not use a package manager like dpkg or rpm?

Re:SWF (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668506)

I don't use package managers because I don't need to. I don't need windows file extensions to tell me what's executable and I don't need a patented managed runtime either.

Re:SWF (4, Informative)

Burb (620144) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668446)

Just FYI, the portable.net project has some kind of System.Windows.Forms implementation. Don't know how good it is, though.

Re:SWF (1)

ohyedoggies (859303) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668607)

I want to see this C# SWF app run on Linux: www.filescope.com. They claim it will "partially" run with the 1.1 branch. Should be interesting if it did, cause it looks like it's massively graphical (System.Drawing).

.NET is a litigation nightmare waiting to happen (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668291)

The prospect of GNOME becoming dependant was the straw that broke the camels back and made me switch to XFCE, keep the .NET patented API out of GTK!

Re:.NET is a litigation nightmare waiting to happe (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668472)

Here is Miguel's answer to GNOME becomig depentdant on MONO: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-hackers/2002- February/msg00031.html [gnome.org]

Re:.NET is a litigation nightmare waiting to happe (1)

menkhaura (103150) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668674)

From your link: " we wanted to empower developers"

Hm... Developers... C#... Mono (monkey?)... All that sounds vaguely familiar.

MONO is a disaster. (0, Flamebait)

furry_wookie (8361) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668302)


Mono is a scourge on the Open Source community.

All it does is to legitimize microsofts attempt at monoplizing another market with yet another windows-only product exactly similar to an exsisting multi-platform product....it's their modus-operandi.

I can't imagine how GNOME which was FOUNDED strictly because of the POSSIBILITY of some licensing problems with Qt(KDE), would go head-long into this licensing minefield created by Miguel.

GNOME has certainly lost its way.

Re:MONO is a disaster. (3, Insightful)

goldspider (445116) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668383)

I thought competition was good for the market. If OSS is always superior to Microsoft offerings, why do you feel so threatened by Mono?

Re:MONO is a disaster. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668531)

>I thought competition was good for the market. If
>OSS is always superior to Microsoft offerings, why
>do you feel so threatened by Mono?

We all know that OS/2 was better than Windows. Guess who won?

Re:MONO is a disaster. (3, Insightful)

mr. marbles (19251) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668399)

All it does is to legitimize microsofts attempt at monoplizing another market with yet another windows-only product exactly similar to an exsisting multi-platform product....it's their modus-operandi.

Right cause if we ignore it, then it will go away. It doesn't matter if the industry decides to use it or not.

Re:MONO is a disaster. (1)

furry_wookie (8361) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668448)


Good idea, lets promote and assist the "industry" in deciding to use this tool by NOT POINTINT OUT there is a better cross-platform tool out there but BY HELPING to legatimize this propietary toolset by allowing Microsoftzilla to say "see its multi-platform too" in their marketing materials.

What don't you people see about that??? Can't you see the fools your playing?

Re:MONO is a disaster. (4, Interesting)

mr. marbles (19251) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668508)

Good idea, lets promote and assist the "industry" in deciding to use this tool by NOT POINTINT OUT there is a better cross-platform tool out there but BY HELPING to legatimize this propietary toolset by allowing Microsoftzilla to say "see its multi-platform too" in their marketing materials.


Fact is there are no better cross-platform tools out there for development, or at least that is the opinion of the users and developers of Mono. People develop and use Mono not because they think to themselve "Hey man, It's Microsoft! They've got to know better," they used it because the same cycle of C/C++ plus a bunch of toolsets are painful to use. Use whatever you want, I like Python myself. What I don't like is this negative FUD campaign against Mono.

The Unsinkable MONO. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668612)

"Fact is there are no better cross-platform tools out there for development, or at least that is the opinion of the users and developers of Mono."

I agree that that's their opinion.

"People develop and use Mono not because they think to themselve "Hey man, It's Microsoft! They've got to know better," they used it because the same cycle of C/C++ plus a bunch of toolsets are painful to use."

So the best solution we could come up with is to pull a QT (at least with Trolltech, we knew they were on our side)?

"Use whatever you want, I like Python myself. What I don't like is this negative FUD campaign against Mono."

Saying it's FUD is basically saying YOU ALL ARE A BUNCH OF LIERS!. Care to go through point, by point and show us why we are wrong. Else you're no better than the FUDsters you claim to be against.

Re:MONO is a disaster. (4, Insightful)

Lysol (11150) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668617)

What I don't like is this negative FUD campaign against Mono.

Dude, it's not so much against Mono & co. - they're our peoples. I think they've done a great job. However, it is against M$ and their history and mindset. Until they start acting like there's a world where many types of languages and platforms can exist on their own merit, instead of wanting to own everything, then I won't trust them and I'll have to cast a skeptical eye towards anything berthed from Redmond. When was the last time Guido pronounced <insert Ballmer or Gates soundbite of the week here>?

Besides, I speak not from the typical /. zealot perspective, but someone who left the M$ camp years ago after being continually burned by the platform and development environment. They haven't changed and if anything, have only extended their reach increased their lock-in. I'll never go back.

Re:MONO is a disaster. (4, Interesting)

Frymaster (171343) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668418)

All it does is to legitimize microsofts attempt at monoplizing another market

wrong. mono is about "embrace and extend"... the same technique that microsoft has been using for years to swallow or crush competing technologies.

it's nice to see redmond on the receiving end of this formula for once, don't you think?

Re:MONO is a disaster. (2, Insightful)

axle_512 (199903) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668512)

That's sort of silly though, doesn't it? The only one that seems to win with the "embrace and extend" is the guy with the monopoly.

Re:MONO is a disaster. (1)

axle_512 (199903) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668537)

doh!
what sounded silly was my first sentence.
Mean "That sounds sort of silly though, doesn't it?"

Re:MONO is a disaster. (1)

mr. marbles (19251) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668592)

When the alternative is "innovate and be copied out of existence" I don't think you have much choice.

Re:MONO is a disaster. (2, Insightful)

alext (29323) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668546)

Except that Mono has been trying for 3 years to embrace Dotnet 1.0 without getting there, and for Dotnet 2.0 "only a subset [mono-project.com] of the total framework will be available".

Looking at the pace of change and who's in the driving seat, I don't think it's MS on the receiving end here.

Re:MONO is a disaster. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668556)

> mono is about "embrace and extend"

this works only if you have the majority of developers by your side. this is not the case for mono.

Parent NOT Troll! (4, Interesting)

Lysol (11150) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668510)

While very, er, direct, parent has a point.

It is 100% true that GNOME was founded that way. And I believe, more than anything, that the plunge into .NET by the Mono team steers straight into a darker and deeper pit than anything that would have been experienced in Qt.

I've said it over and over that Miguel and crew have done a remarkable job. Really. But the biggest flaw in their tower is the fact that it's a spawn of Microsoft. I can completely understand their target of a langauage/platform that they know will succeed. But we all know Linux/FOSS to M$ is all about FUD, embrace and extend, etc... How many times has anyone from M$ talked about working with the GNOME/Linux community vs. destroying or crushing it? Plus, now that Miguel is part of Novell who do you think is going to prevail in court? On that one, I'm gonna put my bet on the company with $40bln in the bank (and that ain't Novell). Anyone up for the 'M$ pummels Novell again' show?

Until M$ comes out with an open source license for .NET, Miguel and the Mono guys are walking on really thin ice.

For myselft, years back I started dabbling in C# thinking I'd broaden my programming knowledge. But I have to say that I prefer Java over C# as C# is just too Microsoft and there's something about the feel of it that gives me goosebumps. Like my old, really old, yukky VB days.

Plus, while most people don't care, I can't separate the poilitics from the code on this one.

Why I love mono (4, Informative)

adolfojp (730818) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668305)

C# is one of the best ECMA compliant languages today. When used with open source libraries it is a very powerfull developement tool. It is only quasi ilegal when you use the microsoft libraries wich you DON'T need to use.

For rapid application developement under Linux I'll take C# and mono any day.

Cheers,
Adolfo

Re:Why I love mono (2, Interesting)

hsmith (818216) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668355)

I am a java fanatic, but c# has really pulled me away. It is a breeze to build enterprise web applications in C# compared to the counterpart in java. Java missed the ball with J2EE IMO, they made it more difficult than it needed to be. MS got it right with ASP.NET...

Re:Why I love mono (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668386)

C# is one of the best ECMA compliant languages today.

This is an utterly nonsensical statement. ECMA is a standards body, you can't "comply" with an organisation.

ECMA has published a number of specifications, such as ECMA-262 (Javascript/JScript/QtScript), ECMA-334 (C#) and ECMA-335 (CLI).

Even if you were to take your original statement as referring to ECMA-334 rather than ECMA itself, it's still nonsensical. C# is "one of the best" at implementing its own spec? Duh! In other news, green is the greenest of all colours.

Re:Why I love mono (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668523)

Why is C# the best and Java suck? C# is a copy of Java with very minor changes.

I used to think the same thing! (1)

adolfojp (730818) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668614)

Java does not suck! Java is good.

C# is more of a descendant of c++ than a JAVA clone. Even if it were a Java clone (no one can deny the influences) the improvements are vast.

On windows, on the enterprise level, the .NET libraries make it incredibly easy and consistent to make applications. Of course, those libraries have (and never will) be submitted to the ECMA standards, so, although MONO has them, using them will still be on a gray area.

Cheers,
Adolfo

Re:I used to think the same thing! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668683)

Please leave Linux alone.

Dumbfucks like you are destroying the computing world's best chance in many, many years to move to something better.

Just fucking go away. Please!

I'ts NOT a .net it's C# (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668307)

IMHO .NET is just an implementation of C#
As Mono is an C# implementation.
It's a BAD error.

Re:I'ts NOT a .net it's C# (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668453)

I wont even bother replying to you.

oops

Nice to hear. (1)

notany (528696) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668308)

The leader of the open source implementation of .NET says no one is forced to use Mono

Good news.

R: Well, we mused, you could hardly expect The Beast to come up with a LISP
machine, could you, ha ha?
G: No, but they could have been more creative than that.
-- www.theregister.co.uk interviewing James Gosling about C#

And it does (2, Interesting)

MajorDick (735308) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668312)

I played with Mono when it was first in Beta as I love the .Net CLR, no its not perfect, but its pretty damm good.

Mono was a way for me to extend my growing .Net knowledge againt Unix and non MS plattforms.
I just downloaded 1.3 (Beta) and I am VERY Impressed with how far they have come I converted a small web app about 10 pages to run under mono, and it does perfectly, I only had to steer clear of a few of my more ecclectic .Net shortcuts, (I should have in the first place)
Mono is and has been self hosting for quite some time, Its a full real language development enviroment not some hodge podge interpreted scripting hack
Congrats to the Mono team, I am looking forward to you .Net 2.0 implementation (some is already part of the 1.3 release)

I can write code 5-6 time faster in .Net than I can in C++ , that me , but if there is no appreciable difference then why in the heck would I write it in C++ ?
ESPECIALLY when its a WHOLE lot easier to move a Mono app around plattforms,
The next project that needs cross platform capablity I will write in Mono, (Writing in Mono its almost sure to work out of the box in MS land)

Re:And it does (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668356)

1996 called, they want their Java back!

Re:And it does (2, Insightful)

Sheetrock (152993) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668407)

It's probably the next stage in computing. Mono (and .NET) are lambasted by folks who are rooted in the past; much like Java, it will have an uphill battle to win mindshare amongst people who believe we should continue to concern ourselves with type safety, buffer overflows and memory leaks when we can design or use a system that takes care of such problems for us.

Fortunately, this is not a popularity contest. If it works best I'll use it, and if it becomes the patent minefield that others suggest I'll use something else. But I think people just don't want to admit that Microsoft came up with something better than the rest of us, even if it's implemented by a open-source friendly developer.

Re:And it does (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668574)

A little punctuation would sure make your post easier to read.

Mono And Linux (4, Informative)

WombatControl (74685) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668340)

I've tried Mono, and while I've little desire to move from Python over to Mono, it's a very well done project. The GTK bindings are quite nice, and C# as a language is much, much, much easier to work with than Java.

The big "if" is whether or not Mono can become to popular without Microsoft trying to pull the plug. However, even if that does happen, C# is an ECMA standard. There are plenty of native Linux libraries that can be used in place of the Microsoft classes. For developing GUI applications under Linux, you're not going to use the Windows.Forms libraries anyway, you're going to use GTK. Mono can stand on its own as a good RAD language for developing graphical applications for GNOME.

I know it's fashionable to bash MS at every turn (and as a Mac/Linux user I do all the time), but C# is a nice language and the .NET libraries are infinitely better than the cruft of Win32/MFC and the other mess of libraries that Microsoft used to shove down programmer's throats. Mono has done an excellent job of taking those libraries and making them work on Linux.

Even without the Microsoft libraries, Mono still provides a good framework for RAD under Linux and GNOME. If we can make it as easy as possible to transition between Windows programming and Linux programming it only helps propagate Linux.

Re:Mono And Linux (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668420)

Out of curiousity, what exactly makes c# easier to work with than Java?

I see many comments on Slashdot to this effect, whenever mono comes up, but nobody ever says how or why they find it easier to work with than java.

Re:Mono And Linux (3, Insightful)

alext (29323) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668598)

C# as a language is much, much, much easier to work with than Java

Not just interesting, more like astonishing given that the languages are practically identical.

The libraries are why you use it (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668604)

Your handwaving about MS pulling the plug and not allowing use of their libraries isn't a trivial issue. It's a critical problem.

The class libraries are what make .NET valuable, the same with Java. A virtual machine based programming environment is all well and good, but the standard set of base libraries in the runtime are what make it useful. Sure, you use GTK to replace windows.forms. Now, what do you do when MS decides to assert copyright over the layout of the base libraries in .NET? That stuff ISN'T standardized.

LugRadio (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668347)

My god LugRadio is shit. They just keep on laughing at themselves, non stop. At the beginning of this episode they just keep on saying "adult themes!" in a whole load of stupid voices for like forty seconds.

Mirror for ogg files (3, Informative)

mjmartin_uk (776702) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668359)

I've put the high and low quality recordings of Season 2 Episode 9 - 14 February 2005 in Ogg format up here:

http://www.gobisoft.net/tmp/ [gobisoft.net]

Just in case the Slashdot effect takes hold.

Re:Mirror for ogg files (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668470)

Where can I get the wma version?

How Much .NET Can I use? (3, Interesting)

zoomba (227393) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668371)

I understand that I can compile C# code across any platform that either has .NET or MONO installed on it. Or any major .NET language. My question is, does MONO extend to ASP.NET and integrating in some way with Apache?

I ask this because I do ASP.NET development where I work, and would like to be able to do some of it on my Powerbook or Linux desktop at home if I need to. I know PHP is the better solution under Linux, and I would prefer to be doing it but it's not a supported product where I work so it's out.

Re:How Much .NET Can I use? (2, Informative)

Zhila the Great Z (852771) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668565)

Yes, Mono supports ASP.NET. It has an XSP application (mini ASP.NET webserver), and an apache module mod_mono (basically sends requests to XSP via named pipes). I currently have an ASP.NET website completely run by Apache/Mono, and it works perfectly.

Re:How Much .NET Can I use? (1)

highcon (857286) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668593)

There is an Apache module that allows you to run ASP.NET stuff under linux here [go-mono.com]. You need the mod_mono, the XSP server, and all of Mono. If you're using a distro with packages you're in luck. I compiled and installed on Slackware, which, although time consuming, was not difficult. Works pretty well once you get it configured.

Re:How Much .NET Can I use? (4, Informative)

Adhemar (679794) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668615)

On Linux, you can use the Apache module mod_mono [mono-project.com] .

It is available on the Mono project's download page [mono-project.com].

It allows Apache [apache.org] to serve ASP.NET pages by proxying the requests to a slightly modified version of our XSP called mod-mono-server that is installed along with XSP.

It doesn't work on the Windows version of Apache yet, but work is in progress to make that work, too.

Interoperability Potential (3, Interesting)

qwerty55 (858835) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668402)

I think Mono may actually be a good think for Linux. One of the things that keeps many people using Windows is that they don't want to give up their current application set to learn the open source equivalents. A project like Mono has the potential to to allow developers to simultaneously target both Windows and Linux, which may lead to more Windows apps running on Linux and in turn more people willing to consider running Linux. Also, C# is a nice language to program in.

Re:Interoperability Potential (1)

xotx69 (571221) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668526)

Exactly. There are so many good programmers out there developing in the Windows environment, but are not taking the plunge to do some Linux development because it's just a foreign world. With this, they can use the langauge they are comfortable with and feel as though they are developming regular windows apps, but at the same time, learn some things about GNU/Linux.

We have to think of the big picture. Mono can draw windows developers over to Linux, and this can produce more applications for Linux. The more the merrier, especially in this phase of the game where Linux trying to attract more users. About the Patents/Licenses...I don't know much about that, so I won't comment on that.

Mono perspective (-1, Troll)

JamesP (688957) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668422)

Here's why I like Mono

1 - GTK plainly sucks for development. No, really, I tried, and it's worse than MFC.

2 - Windows.Form is THE thing that will allow true Linux WIndows portability. And it's a good widget library.

3 - .NET is better than Java in my opinion.

Re:Mono perspective (1)

Quattro Vezina (714892) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668469)

GTK plainly sucks for development. No, really, I tried, and it's worse than MFC.

That only really applies if you're coding in GTK's native C, and that's because writing GUI code in C is a braindead idea. Sadly, most GTK apps are written in C. GTK's C# bindings are actually decent, and I believe that its Python bindings are also decent.

I'm no GTK fan, but GTK# has really cleaned up the API.

Re:Mono perspective (3, Informative)

DrXym (126579) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668658)

  1. GTK plainly sucks for development. No, really, I tried, and it's worse than MFC.
    GTK is a C API. If you don't like it, use a binding such as gtkmm or wxWidgets. Basically it can live underneath any API you care for it.
  2. Windows.Form is THE thing that will allow true Linux WIndows portability. And it's a good widget library..
    It's good but many apps end up PInvoking Win32 because Windows.Forms doesn't do something they need. Thus it isn't that portable. Even a full implementation of Windows.Forms won't do you much good for a program that makes a single call to Win32, or which drags in some "safe" C++ compiled native DLL. But getting back to Windows.Forms, it exposes some particularly non-portable things such as WndProc, windows messages etc.
  3. .NET is better than Java in my opinion.
    The CLR & core are architecturally cleaner, but Java kicks seven shades of shit out of .NET when it comes to sheer breadth of implementations, platforms, 3rd party libraries, enterprise level specifications and so on.

I'm in no doubt that Mono is a good thing, but neither .NET nor Mono offer anything remotely as compelling as Java at the moment at least in the enterprise domain. Let's see Mono go through a birth of fire on the desktop first.

Speaking of which, I see a lot of potential there (after all half the system tools in most dists are python / perl etc. with bindings). But Mono really has to start encouraging people other than Linux users to use the open source stack - even .NET users. That means producing an installer containing the stack with some wizards & designers so that Visual Studio .NET users can use them with ease.

Hope for ex-Java and Linux Developers (3, Interesting)

lowvato (68700) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668431)

Many of us have taken jobs at shops that are Microsoft only shops. I hope that Mono takes off in a big way since that would give us a chance to easily port our apps over or at least develop on something other than fucking windows xp. It really sucks to get stuck in the MS world and not have the time to work in other environments and not be able to have other platforms run at the place that you work. Maybe Mono can be a bridge from the dark valley of MS purgatory.

Mono - stands for Infectious mononucleosis (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668441)

Mono [wikipedia.org] is an infectious disease, learn about it and fight it in order to prevent it from spreading.

Please don't hit me... (3, Funny)

alext (29323) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668450)

defends Mono by saying no one is forced to use it

Awww, I bet those of you that have been beating him up for the last 3 years feel really mean now!

Don't worry, it will pass.

Leaving out half the community? (4, Insightful)

m50d (797211) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668480)

Don't get me wrong, I think mono is a great idea. But I'm worried about how closely tied it is to gnome. Not because of it taking over gnome, but because of it ignoring KDE. I think they should try and get more of the Qt stuff in there, Qt# at least should be in the standard mono dist. Otherwise you just split everyone.

No mindshare for Mono (0, Troll)

amightywind (691887) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668497)

It is pretty obvious that Mono is not making significant inroads into the free software developer's toolbox. Free software is still dominated by C, C++, and to a lesser extent scripting languages like Python, Perl, and Ruby. I should think most real hackers would be embarrased to program in C# as they are to program in Java. Because of their proprietary taint, whether real of imagined, they will never be considered the right thing. Miguel made a terrible career mistake by going the Mono route. His reputation continues to decline.

Re:No mindshare for Mono (0, Flamebait)

geomon (78680) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668603)

Real hackers?

Shit, what does that mean?

Language jihads really annoy me. The arguments used to support them generally have no basis in reason but instead rely on emotional outbursts.

C# vs. Java, C vs. C++, Fortran vs. ....

Okay, so Fortran is abysmal, but if there is a good reason for using a language, then it is the CORRECT choice for the programmer. That reason may include the author's familiarity with the language.

If the author isn't any good at using a language they aren't familiar with, despite its benefits, the program won't be written! Or it may be written poorly!

This is open source, folks; if you don't like the language/implementation, then get the source and rewrite the application!

His reputation continues to decline.

I agree, but not for the reasons you gave.

PARENT IS NOT A TROLL! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668642)

Sooner or later fanboys are going to have to admit that the CLR sucks. Mod parent up, Miguel has been monkey see monkey doing Micro$oft for far too long. The guy is a talented coder no doubt about that, it's a real pity he doesn't put his skills to better use.

".exe" has incredible ick value (1)

Ars-Fartsica (166957) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668668)

While I appreciate what the mono folks are doing, I have to admit a cringe when I see ".exe" and ".dll" files on my system. Of course its just an extension i could symlink to anything I want...and whats in a name? Enough apparently to make a difference.

I think the key issue for mono is that most open source programmers are not overly concerned with Windows interoperability. Its not that they don't see the value of migrating Windows users to new open code...its that they just don't seem to care.

In any case mono is just one more Gtk binding as far as I am concerned...and there will never be an "official" Gnome language beyond C since there are too many powerful advocates in the various camps. Python would likely make the most sense (even though I am not a Python coder), but you have people still rooting for "open" Java (that which is supported by gcj) and C# via mono.

No Single Person Has Done More Harm To Linux (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668507)

If you can think of someone worse I'd love to hear who.

Choice of GUI toolkit (4, Interesting)

HogynCymraeg (624823) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668545)

I remember hearing that GTK# was the way to go WRT the default mono toolkit. Bad idea. GTK on windows is pretty bad. However, I found this [sourceforge.net] project which makes wxWidgets available to mono. Why oh why would you want to use gtk# over wxWidgets (which in turn uses native UI)?

Why Mono is a big win for linux (1, Interesting)

Zachary Kessin (1372) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668596)

The real thing that mono buys linux is a lot of application developers. A lot of people have put a lot of time and money into learning .net and its tools. They don't want to throw that away if they don't have to. So now we can say to all those folks hey you can use your .net skills on linux (or bsd etc) and poof instant linux applications.

Now if you're in love with C# ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668630)

So you need to install linux, use wine, install mono and hope none is going to sue you or mono eventually? Why not just use java to start with instead of playing ms x-plattform beta tester?

Patents: ASP.NET, ADO.NET and Windows.Forms (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11668644)

From the Mono's FAQ:

Question 131: Could patents be used to completely disable Mono (either submarine patents filed now, or changes made by Microsoft specifically to create patent problems)?

The controversial elements are the ASP.NET, ADO.NET and Windows.Forms subsets. Those are convenient for people who need full compatibility with the Windows platform, but are not required for the open source Mono platform, nor integration with today's Mono's rich support of Linux.

The patents do not apply in countries where software patents are not allowed.

Hopefully, the patents will fail in the US too; not many applications can be developed without ASP.NET, ADO.NET and Windows.Forms packages.

The test for Mono (0, Flamebait)

Dr. Bent (533421) | more than 9 years ago | (#11668682)

When I see the .NET version of Microsoft Office (or any other Microsoft bread and butter product), running just as well in Linux as it does in Windows, then I'll consider Mono to be ready for prime time. Until then, Mono will always be the bastard stepchild of the .NET universe, with solutions that "kind of work, most of the time".
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