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Zend Taking PHP In the Wrong Direction?

Zonk posted more than 9 years ago | from the php-it's-dynamite dept.

PHP 155

dvanatta writes "Is Zend taking PHP in the wrong direction? Ian Felton asks 'Why is PHP become more like Java, when the PHP developer community seems to want anything but that to happen? What is Zend thinking?'" From the article: "Data from a Zend survey completed in June 2003 (when PHP5 was still in major development) showed that the characteristics of the PHP community didn't necessarily match up with what was developed in PHP5. For example, with the ability to list three primary programming languages, only 18% of respondents named Java."

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I don't get it (2, Insightful)

digitalchinky (650880) | more than 9 years ago | (#11689601)

I use PHP across a whole bunch of websites, including version 5 - how is it anything like java? Maybe I'm missing the obvious, but all the 'old' scripts I have still work pretty good - without stopping any browser for 15 seconds (java) while it does its thing.

(I did read the article too)

The future isn't here yet. It might not be all gloomy.

Re:I don't get it (2, Informative)

drdink (77) | more than 9 years ago | (#11689648)

I believe the article is talking about the zoo of new OO features in PHP5. Unless you have or would like to have OO code, you really don't notice it other than some of the PHP internal functions being moved into classes. Take a look at the object oriented parts of the PHP Manual [php.net] .

Re:I don't get it (3, Interesting)

hey! (33014) | more than 9 years ago | (#11690072)

Unless you have or would like to have OO code, you really don't notice it other than some of the PHP internal functions being moved into classes.

Yes, this article struck me as a relgious rant. For example:

Zend has maneuvered PHP so that other companies who are in the enterprise software business consider it a legitimate language...

Surely, this is a good thing for PHP users, at least for their employment prospects. In any case, it sounds to me like they're following the "make simple things simple, make complicated things possible" philosophy.

WRT to Java, I'm not sure at all what the author's dislike of Java has to do with anything at all. It seems to me that having PHP as a presentation layer choice for hypertext processing in a Java system would also be a good thing.

Re:I don't get it (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11690423)

Maybe I'm missing the obvious, but all the 'old' scripts I have still work pretty good - without stopping any browser for 15 seconds (java) while it does its thing.

You are an utterly clueless shithead.

They are talking about server-side Java, you fucking assclow.

Re:I don't get it (3, Insightful)

ERJ (600451) | more than 9 years ago | (#11690750)

without stopping any browser for 15 seconds (java) while it does its thing.

Just to clear up what seems to be a more common misconception then it should.

The author of the article is not referring to client side java (applets) but instead to server side java (jsp, servlets, j2ee). Server side java returns html just like php, perl, asp it just uses java as the processing language.

Re:I don't get it (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11690794)

Which I believe is exactly his point. Or have you not visited a .jsp url and waited a while?

Re:I don't get it (3, Insightful)

'The '.$L3mm1ng (584224) | more than 9 years ago | (#11691293)

Once compiled, a JSP may actually respond faster than PHP without a compiler cache. A delay should only occur when the file is accessed for the first time. Which is usually done by the developer, though that surely makes me favour PHP over JSP. Having to wait a couple of seconds everytime you make a change sucks.

Re:I don't get it (3, Informative)

snorklewacker (836663) | more than 9 years ago | (#11692792)

> Having to wait a couple of seconds everytime you make a change sucks.

Solution: use jikes instead of javac to recompile your JSPs. It's blazing fast. I know resin makes this dead simple, but it should be doable on tomcat. Heck, resin will even automatically recompile your servlets and EJBs, deployment descriptors and all (if you use xdoclet for them). You hardly ever have to manually rebuild. It's almost as nice as using ASP.NET.

Re:I don't get it (2)

Tet (2721) | more than 9 years ago | (#11695142)

Having to wait a couple of seconds everytime you make a change sucks.

Just having a compiler installed on your public facing production machine is a huge faux pas in the first place. Yes, it's possible to procompile everything before you deploy it, but it's a pain in the ass...

Re:I don't get it (2, Insightful)

eyeye (653962) | more than 9 years ago | (#11691046)


I use PHP across a whole bunch of websites, including version 5 - how is it anything like java? Maybe I'm missing the obvious, but all the 'old' scripts I have still work pretty good - without stopping any browser for 15 seconds (java) while it does its thing.


Java is not only something that runs as an applet in your browser - its a programming language that can run server side too, ever heard of JSPs or tomcat?

Re:I don't get it (1)

PickyH3D (680158) | more than 9 years ago | (#11691707)

What is your point? JSP is insanely slow compared to anything other than ColdFusion.

Re:I don't get it (1)

VultureMN (116540) | more than 9 years ago | (#11692891)

Bull. I've done a lot of PHP, and am currently doing a lot of Java (JSP, Servlets). Once the JSP is compiled for the first time, the response time is not noticably different than using PHP or Perl or anything else.

Re:I don't get it (2, Insightful)

caseih (160668) | more than 9 years ago | (#11692253)

No you don't get it. When people say "java" they mean programming the web sites in java on the server, not using java in the browser. You probably have used many java-driven web sites without knowing it, since the java runs entirely on the server and simply serves up web pages. The arguement is over whether php's feature set is becoming too much like java and thus pushing us into java-style techniques and frameworks for app design.

Re:I don't get it (2, Insightful)

CoolCat (594452) | more than 9 years ago | (#11693077)

How the hell does serverside java make your browser load for 15 seconds??

Re:I don't get it (2, Insightful)

angel'o'sphere (80593) | more than 9 years ago | (#11693301)

I don't get it either ....
Maybe I'm missing the obvious, but all the 'old' scripts I have still work pretty good - without stopping any browser for 15 seconds (java) while it does its thing.


How can a browser be stopped for 15 seconds when you use Java on the server, like PHP?

Ah, you probably mean Java as Applet on a client?

But .... Java on the client and PHP on the server? Thats not the same league, granted .... but IMHO its not even the same game.

angel'o'sphere

Re:I don't get it (1)

digitalchinky (650880) | more than 9 years ago | (#11695806)

Thanks for all the replies, I did mean java applets - am now enlightened on the internal workings of PHP.

Re:I don't get it (2, Insightful)

chaves (824310) | more than 9 years ago | (#11696758)

how is it anything like java? Maybe I'm missing the obvious, but all the 'old' scripts I have still work pretty good - without stopping any browser for 15 seconds (java) while it does its thing

Are you talking about Java applets (and the time the VM takes to be loaded by the browser)? Java applets play a *very* minor role in today's Java picture. Java is used much more often on the server side, running in the web server (generating web pages as PHP does), or in application servers (implementing business logic and doing database transactions). Java has got a lot of momentum in the last 5-6 years. Making PHP more easily integrated with Java will enable it to fit into that picture, probably being a better choice than using Java itself for generating web pages. Not mentioning the huge number of Java libraries (for every application you can think of) - if PHP could call Java code without compromising performance, all those libraries would be readily available for use in PHP scripts.

--
Lose your sig in two weeks - ask me how!

Bad writing (5, Informative)

musselm (209468) | more than 9 years ago | (#11689617)

Come on..
FTFLOTFA (From the first line of the ...):
"Why is PHP become more like Java..."

Give me a break. When this site links to articles as badly written as this one, it makes lots of people feel bad. Why can't devshed and other sites (including this one) do any damn proofreading or editing?

Thanks!
Andrew

Re:Bad writing (1)

drdink (77) | more than 9 years ago | (#11689668)

The worst part was the What would Linus do? section. Apparently everybody now has to model their life and business model after Linus Torvalds.

Re:Bad writing (3, Insightful)

drakethegreat (832715) | more than 9 years ago | (#11689718)

Exactly. For a good example, take spreadfirefox.com for instance. Currently there is an article about cnet's take on IE 7 and Firefox and Asa asks people to state their opinions for the media or others who might be reading this to get an idea about what the Mozilla Community is like. Well I was reading most the comments and every single one had a HUGE grammatical mistake. Now in most situations I don't proof read my comments such as a case like this but when someone tells me my comments will be read by a great number of people and influence the way Firefox looks to others then I would be a little bit more serious.

Neways ya PHP is nothing like Java. I've been using it for 7 years and if they mean by OOP that its more like java then they aren't too clever because PHP isn't making OOP the required way of programming or anything. They are simply providing people with more options to program and they still allow people to choose what they want. People still find OOP scary it would seem and although there are arguments for an against it, I think its up to the individual if they want to use it and that seems to be the way the PHP development is taking it.

Re:Bad writing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11689756)

Maybe you should proofread your comments. That was awful.

Re:Bad writing (3, Insightful)

0x461FAB0BD7D2 (812236) | more than 9 years ago | (#11689864)

Because content is far more important than grammar.

In any case, for those mistakes that have been corrected, you wouldn't know about them. It's only the mistakes that stand out, which skews the viewpoint.

Humans are imperfect. Even Clippy can't help sometimes.

Re:Bad writing (1)

musselm (209468) | more than 9 years ago | (#11689973)

Because content is far more important than grammar.
But good content with excellent grammar is far superior to so-so content with lame writing.

In any case, for those mistakes that have been corrected, you wouldn't know about them. It's only the mistakes that stand out, which skews the viewpoint.
But when mistakes stand out so boldly, it would stand to reason that more proofing/editing could have helped.

Humans are imperfect. Even Clippy can't help sometimes.
Aha! That explains it: Clippy is an editor for Devshed and Slashdot!

Re:Bad writing (1)

0x461FAB0BD7D2 (812236) | more than 9 years ago | (#11690119)

But when mistakes stand out so boldly, it would stand to reason that more proofing/editing could have helped.
I suppose it has to do with getting the stories out asap.

Clippy is an editor for Devshed and Slashdot!
If that were true, all news articles would be in the form of letters.

Re:Bad writing (3, Funny)

musselm (209468) | more than 9 years ago | (#11690254)

Clippy is an editor for Devshed and Slashdot!
If that were true, all news articles would be in the form of letters.


"It looks like you're trying to bitch about grammar on slashdot again! Do you want some help?"

:)

Re:Bad writing (1)

gallen1234 (565989) | more than 9 years ago | (#11690465)

Bad grammar interferes with content. When I read a malformed sentence like the one mentioned by the grandparent it's jarring. Having to stop and try to recreate the author's meaning completely disrupts the flow of the content. If it happens repeatedly I usually end up not even finishing the piece.

Re:Bad writing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11692826)

That reads more like English isn't the native language of the speaker. I run into that idiom a lot with non-native speakers (mostly latin-language speakers ... Russians and Japanese speakers have their own common grammatical errors).

Don't get me wrong, the article is still trash, but that's not a very good reason why.

Popular direction != right direction (5, Insightful)

sfjoe (470510) | more than 9 years ago | (#11689623)

In the Zend survey, 93% of respondents listed PHP as a primary language and 69% listed HTML.

People who think HTML is a programming language really have no business setting the direction of PHP.

Re:Popular direction != right direction (2, Insightful)

drakethegreat (832715) | more than 9 years ago | (#11689747)

My guess is that a lot of them are people who got into PHP because they ran a simple static site so they went to PHP to make it dynamic and they don't know what programming is. Thats my take but I wouldn't expect the php community (at least not the development part of it) to know what true programming is like. Well at least not a majority of it for sure.

Re:Popular direction != right direction (3, Insightful)

Nos. (179609) | more than 9 years ago | (#11689859)

Thats my take but I wouldn't expect the php community (at least not the development part of it) to know what true programming is like. Well at least not a majority of it for sure.

I don't think categorizing a group of people's knowledge of programming based on a language they use is fair or in any way accurate. I know a lot of people who use a lot of different languages, including PHP. Just because someone uses PHP to create a dynamic webpage does not imply that they are not capable of writing incredibly complex and bug free programs in PHP and/or other languages. I could make a statement that C programmers don't program with security in mind since we've seen so many buffer overflows. It doesn't make it accurate or even remotely true.

Re:Popular direction != right direction (1)

angel'o'sphere (80593) | more than 9 years ago | (#11693453)


I don't think categorizing a group of people's knowledge of programming based on a language they use is fair or in any way accurate.

Yo are right, but I dont think the post you refer to wanted that to imply. (The rest of your comment is quite fine as well)

IMHO the poster ment: typical first step programmers (some guy with a computer and basic HTML knowledge) probably chooses PHP because he has heared it is dead simple.

So, now consider one is writing a software to sell tickets for a collage sports stadium (football or something).

Probably pretty easy to start in PHP, probable even manageable to get it set up that you can sell some 5000 tickets over a weekend.

Now you have very likely a guy or team who abused everything they could to just get the work done, because they likely hav no clue about enterprise application design.

But that is no problem so far.

Imagine now the application is "successfull".

Successfull means: it works, people like it, more people see it, more people want it, it spreads, It spreas into markets where it is not designed for, it fails. People want to adapt it and make it more successfull.

Example, the whole NBA likes to buy the application and use it for their ticket selling. Wow, now yo have a problem ....
Instead of some 500 or 5000 tickets every weekend (or over the week before) you have now probably some 10000 visitors every hour and some 5000 sells every hour.

Now, the big question: what would YOU do now? Rewrite it from scratch in Java, Perl, Python? Stick to the PHP and redesign it or writing it from scratch?

I think the ZEND people want you to stick to PHP. So they offer ways how you hopefully can evolve a "hacked" suit of scripts into an enterprise application.

All people out there trashing about Java I only can say: In an enterprise application, like amazon.com, you have far more issues to think about than on your dynamic Star Treck fan site.

Java simple is made by people who do "Enterprise Computing" on "hard iron" since 25 years.

Definitely it has some "strange" areas in its design, but a lot of those areas are NEEDED because a lot of stuff is not that plain simple as you think.

angel'o'sphere

Re:Popular direction != right direction (1)

ErikZ (55491) | more than 9 years ago | (#11696351)


Are you trying to sell PHP? I'd label the first program "Ticketseller basic". If you want "Ticketseller Advanced" you'll have to pay me a lot more money. And with the experence I've gotten from writing the first program, the second one should be a snap.

So, it looks like PHP is the gateway to riches, using your example.

Re:Popular direction != right direction (1)

ShieldW0lf (601553) | more than 9 years ago | (#11696417)

IMHO the poster ment: typical first step programmers (some guy with a computer and basic HTML knowledge) probably chooses PHP because he has heared it is dead simple.

Was that a mistake or an insult?

Re:Popular direction != right direction (1)

ErikZ (55491) | more than 9 years ago | (#11696327)

I used PHP for my dynamic site because Perl is a pain in the ass unless you're a perl programmer. JAVA? I had no interest in picking up a book because all the people I taking JAVA classes were saying "I just can't get my program to work!"

I picked up a book on PHP and had functional website in 3 days. Took me a year to make it look good though...

Re:Popular direction != right direction (0)

Leroy_Brown242 (683141) | more than 9 years ago | (#11689784)

Well, it's writing code to invoke a responce. So, in a way it's programming. But, yeah . . . .

Re:Popular direction != right direction (2, Insightful)

JimDabell (42870) | more than 9 years ago | (#11690182)

Well, it's writing code to invoke a responce.

No it isn't. It's marking up text to describe the document structurally and semantically.

An HTML tag is merely the start of a structure, it isn't an instruction to a browser. Think "this is a paragraph", not "leave a vertical space"; think "this is a heading", not "increase the size of the text".

Re:Popular direction != right direction (0, Troll)

Leroy_Brown242 (683141) | more than 9 years ago | (#11690310)

Main Entry: pedantic
Pronunciation: pi-'dan-tik
Function: adjective
1 : of, relating to, or being a pedant
2 : narrowly, stodgily, and often ostentatiously learned
3 : UNIMAGINATIVE, PEDESTRIAN

Re:Popular direction != right direction (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11690434)

Pointing out the different between a program and a document is hardly pedantry.

Re:Popular direction != right direction (1)

haluness (219661) | more than 9 years ago | (#11690447)

Actually its not pedantic - you might want to call it subtle. But markup is *quite* different from instructions.

Essentially markup tells the browse what type of thing some text is - it says nothing as to what should be done with the text.

Of course, you can call this some form of instruction, but that would muddy the definitions.

Precision is nice

Re:Popular direction != right direction (0)

Leroy_Brown242 (683141) | more than 9 years ago | (#11690558)

"but that would muddy the definitions."

Verbing weirds language!

Re:Popular direction != right direction (1)

haluness (219661) | more than 9 years ago | (#11690678)

Muddying is considered a transitive verb - but in general you're right :)

Sorry for the nitpick

Re:Popular direction != right direction (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11690606)

Main entry: inaccurate
Pronunciation: 'lih-roy-braun-'too-foah-'too
Function: adjective
inaccurate
1: not accurate
2: not precisely accurate [syn: inexact]
3: containing or CHARACTERIZED BY ERROR [syn: erroneous]

Hint: words have meanings, and requesting people to use them with generally accepted meanings permits this wonderful thing called "communication". Using words with the wrong meanings causes an unpleasant thing called "misunderstandings". Calling something a programming language when it is not a programming language falls into this latter category.

Re:Popular direction != right direction (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11690288)

Why does it not surprise me that you have a livejournal?

Re:Popular direction != right direction (1)

Khazunga (176423) | more than 9 years ago | (#11691125)

Well, it's writing code to invoke a responce. So, in a way it's programming. But, yeah . . . .
Is it Turing-complete? No? Then it isn't a programming language in any way.

Simple enough...

Re:Popular direction != right direction (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11691687)

Turing-completeness isn't a definition of a programming language, it's something a language can be. There are a lot of useful languages that aren't Turing-complete. For example, languages that are used in modelling for formal verification usually aren't, because some verification problems are unsolvable for Turing-complete languages.

Re:Popular direction != right direction (1)

hazah (807503) | more than 9 years ago | (#11696765)

Markup, not programming.

Re:Popular direction != right direction (1)

fm6 (162816) | more than 9 years ago | (#11690524)

I don't understand. PHP turns web pages into little programs. If you're not happy with that idea (I admit I'm not), why do you use PHP at all?

Re:Popular direction != right direction (1)

Hard_Code (49548) | more than 9 years ago | (#11691247)

If one doesn't understand that idea then it's possible one isn't dissatisfied with it. I suspect a lot of PHP is isn't even by /programmers/ per se, but merely people who want a "dynamic web page" and discover they can add some PHP snippet and off they are on their programming careers.

Re:Popular direction != right direction (1)

fm6 (162816) | more than 9 years ago | (#11691618)

I guess I agree with your statement. But it does nothing to answer my question.

Re:Popular direction != right direction (2, Interesting)

aled (228417) | more than 9 years ago | (#11692143)

I guess I'm going to flamed/modded down but...

Isn't PHP the Visual Basic of this age? it's easy, it's dirty, it's quick to do simple apps.

Re:Popular direction != right direction (1)

hazah (807503) | more than 9 years ago | (#11696783)

No, I can read PHP, Visual basic distracts me from my code.

Re:Popular direction != right direction (2, Insightful)

Fletch (6903) | more than 9 years ago | (#11690919)

"In the Zend survey, 93% of respondents listed PHP as a primary language and 69% listed HTML."

People who think HTML is a programming language really have no business setting the direction of PHP.


The article says 93% listed it as a "primary language." Not, as a "primary programming language." You do know what the L in HTML stands for, don't you?

Re:Popular direction != right direction (1)

sfjoe (470510) | more than 9 years ago | (#11691165)

The article says 93% listed it as a "primary language." Not, as a "primary programming language."

The article is addmittedly poorly written, however, they do use the phrase, "primary programming language". From the 4th paragraph:

"For example, with the ability to list three primary programming languages, only 18% of respondents named Java. It was named a primary programming language, on average, 18 times out of 300 possible chances. "

No, I don't know what the 'L' stands for. Please tell me.

Re:Popular direction != right direction (1)

MammyNun (61659) | more than 9 years ago | (#11691176)

IMHO there is a big difference between "language" and "programming language". And there is a reason its not HTPL instead of HTML, right?

Re:Popular direction != right direction (1)

anarxia (651289) | more than 9 years ago | (#11694575)

I wonder why they didn't list XML or SGML? They have an 'L' in the end so they pass your programming language test unlike PHP, Java, C and several other so-called programming languages

I *like* the OO. (4, Interesting)

drdink (77) | more than 9 years ago | (#11689627)

This article was a bit vague on the survey used to justify the entire article. Who were the people surveyed? Are they just people throwing up private websites, or are they people designing applications and featureful sites in PHP? I have written and currently maintain a fairly large project that uses PHP5's OO features quite extensively. The object oriented features are what makes PHP5 so great. It is easy to design and reuse code. I look forward to it being extended and expanded, assuming it maintains compatibility.

Re:I *like* the OO. (2, Insightful)

ignatzMouse (447031) | more than 9 years ago | (#11689905)

Exactly... and just as importantly it's easy to not use them if you don't want to. PHP used to have a pretty clunky object model. They improved it. So?

Re:I *like* the OO. (2, Interesting)

kawika (87069) | more than 9 years ago | (#11690085)

PHP is seductive because it does let relatively inexperienced users generate dynamic content without too much of a learning curve. But from the description you give I think you are part of a very small minority of PHP developers at the other end of the spectrum.

My own PHP experience is more like this [ukuug.org] . Perhaps that's because I had come from Perl, and as this comparison [tnx.nl] makes clear the two certainly don't have the same ideas about how builtin functions should be designed.

As it evolves, PHP isn't solving the higher-level problems. It is merely reinventing functions, object models, and syntax. Zend's focus on things that real users don't care about may reflect that as well.

For example, PHP makes it trivially easy to insert dynamic content here and there into a page. If you want to separate business logic from presentation, which is almost manditory on a large site, you will want some sort of templating package. You will have to write your own. This is a common need, why shouldn't the core language address it? Because they are too busy reinventing object oriented programming?

Re:I *like* the OO. (1)

JimDabell (42870) | more than 9 years ago | (#11690280)

If you want to separate business logic from presentation, which is almost manditory on a large site, you will want some sort of templating package.

Not really. It's perfectly acceptable to put business logic in included classes and simply use simple PHP embedded in the page to do nothing more than output the results of that business logic.

You will have to write your own.

You're kidding, right? That is flat-out wrong. There are loads of template engines freely available to everybody. Nobody has to write their own.

This is a common need, why shouldn't the core language address it?

It does. PHP is a template language itself. Furthermore, there are PEAR packages that add additional capabilities.

Re:I *like* the OO. (1)

ClippyHater (638515) | more than 9 years ago | (#11690724)

Speaking of PEAR, would you know of a good site that delves into PEAR usage? I haven't found anything significant yet, so haven't made the leap into using it.

Re:I *like* the OO. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11691388)

which is almost manditory on a large site

"mandatory" (think "mandate").

Re:I *like* the OO. (1)

ciroknight (601098) | more than 9 years ago | (#11691739)

One of the reasons PHP doesn't integrate their own logic for building templates is very simple; it's a programming language, not a content designer.

PHP has done everything within their power to make it easy for anyone to build their own templating engine; They've made it so prints can be inlined, they've made it so it has great database access including support for a core database (SQLite), they've made it so error reporting can be customized and everything can be sugar coated as deeply as you want.

The fact is, when you add more to the language, you add to the bloat of the beast. This is one of the problems I have with Perl (though, I have many more significant problems with it); there is literally a module to do everything. And since the language has built in modules to do it, nobody bothers to write code anymore.

I think PHP is still sans-template-engine out of the nature of it. Many companys thrive off of selling their PHP-page templates (Movable Type being the best example I can think of, also look at Invision Forums, etc), and this is how it should be. People should write the code so that it does what they want it, not have the language dictate how it should be done.

As for PHP's move into Object Orientation, I embrace it. I think that in order for PHP to even be considerable as a language, it needs to have an Object subsystem so that it's easier to maintain and to allow programmers to quickly write programs that will last in the language. PHP once was "Scriptable C", which is great and fast and enough for 80% (arbitrary number, not quotable) of the users, and that's why those 80% still use PHP4, but for those who want/need OO, they've upgraded.

So why are you bitching about not having some common facility in the language, and the fact the language is now OO? The two arguments counteract each other. The fact it's now OO makes it EASIER to design those facilities in the language, thus, keeping them out of the implementation of it.

Re:I *like* the OO. (1)

Captain Nitpick (16515) | more than 9 years ago | (#11696027)

For example, PHP makes it trivially easy to insert dynamic content here and there into a page. If you want to separate business logic from presentation, which is almost manditory on a large site, you will want some sort of templating package. You will have to write your own. This is a common need, why shouldn't the core language address it? Because they are too busy reinventing object oriented programming?

Because PHP is a templating package. You just have to have the discipline to use it as such instead of slapping your database code willy-nilly into the HTML.

Re:I *like* the OO. (1)

tehshen (794722) | more than 9 years ago | (#11693816)

I have felt some of the extensions and expansions they have added do not improve the language at all. For example, to put the contents of a directory into an array in PHP5, I can do this:
$files = scandir("/tmp");
However, scandir() is only in PHP5, so in older versions I must do this:
$dir = opendir("/tmp");
while (false !== ($filename = readdir($dir))) $files[] = $filename;
sort($files);
And to ensure backwards-compatibility I would have to check if scandir is a function and use the right method. Or I could just use the second method, not using scandir() at all, which is simpler.

If you want more examples, see the changelog.

Re:I *like* the OO. (1)

drdink (77) | more than 9 years ago | (#11693914)

So? You will get this with any language, product, or service that evolves over time and adds features. You either say "My app only works with PHP5 and newer" or you support older PHP through compatibility tests. This is what programming is all about.

Re:I *like* the OO. (2, Interesting)

lphuberdeau (774176) | more than 9 years ago | (#11694280)

They survey was open to public a few months ago. There were no requirements to participate. I guess anyone seeking around the PHP world at that time could have participated. Are the results representative? Maybe.

With a better object model, PHP 5 does not only bring the capacity to do OOP, but also to have better interactions with other OO libraries and languages. Interoperability really is the keyword to remember for PHP's future and Zend is putting a lot of efforts that way. Other than the object model, the key features of PHP 5 are:

  • New XML library, fully DOM compliant
  • New SOAP extension
  • New XML-RPC extension
  • Unified database API (PDO)

An extension to use Java object has been available for quite some time but it seems they are improving it and .NET extension is experimental too.

These features sure don't aim the average PHP user who simply uses include and a few conditions. I don't think it means it's bad to have em. They simply bring PHP at a higher level and offer a more complete solution to the developpers.

olds for nerds (-1, Flamebait)

DrSkwid (118965) | more than 9 years ago | (#11689817)

This article originally appeared in the September 2004 issue of Plug-in

Zend wants to make money? (4, Insightful)

Ieshan (409693) | more than 9 years ago | (#11689825)

I'm always puzzled by technology "insiders" writing about groups that are "destroying products" that "mainstream developers" want to use.

Reality check: "Mainstream developers" are people who a) pay nothing to use the software and b) have no product alliegiance whatsoever.

People are using PHP because it's useful and it's free. But being free doesn't help Zend in any way. They're changing the direction of the product slowly so that they'll eventually make some profit off of either PHP itself or PHP-addons using their server language / server engine.

My Philosophy: Unless you're paying for a product, or actively developing for the product, don't bitch when the people who *do* need money because they're the ones making the product decide they want to change it.

By the way, I use PHP quite a bit, and haven't really noticed that much of a difference from PHP4 to PHP5. Some small things, but nothing earth shattering.

Some points... (5, Insightful)

cmad_x (723313) | more than 9 years ago | (#11689872)

In the Zend survey, 93% of respondents listed PHP as a primary language and
69% listed HTML.

Since when is HTML a programming language?

why would they put so much effort into making PHP a
complex, object-modeled language

I haven't written anything in PHP5 yet, but from what I've seen, I wouldn't call it "complex". If they find it "complex", they should just stick to HTML.

As a matter of fact, 85% of PHP users were running Windows
as their desktop operating system.

Yeah, they may run Windows as their desktop OS, but that doesn't stand for anything. Sure, they might usually check out their newest scripts in their desktop, but they all pretty much end up in their server, which is probably running some *NIX.

A hypertext preprocessor doesn't require an object model as complex as Java, especially when hardly any members of the community use Java

So? As long as the engine doesn't become slow or very resource hungry, more features are always welcome; the new OO model might help someone write better (e.g. cleaner) PHP code. If you don't like the new OO model, then just don't use it.

What would Linus do?

What does Linus have to do with PHP? Why would be care what Linus would do, seriously? Also, about that section mentioning all Zend people driving fancy cars and stuff, and the company trying to profit. Of course it's trying to profit; it's a company! I don't know of any companies that don't have profit in mind. They make a good engine, so PHP is based on it. Are you telling me that that shouldn't have happened because Zend is a company? Think again..

My $0.02

Re:Some points... (3, Insightful)

T-Ranger (10520) | more than 9 years ago | (#11692820)

HTML == Hypertext Markup Language
The question diddnt ask for "primary programming language" it asked for "primary language". There are (apparently, from the survey) pleanty of web designers whose primary langage is HTML who use PHP. Or, there are pleanty of PHP users whose primary system is HTML. The point is that a large chunk of the userbase of PHP are not "programmers", but web developers. Making PHP more like Java makes PHP easier to pick up and use for Java developers. Which is great, if you a Java developer, but most of the PHP users are first HTML hackers.

What's with the hate.. (3, Insightful)

sporty (27564) | more than 9 years ago | (#11689927)

People hate java 'cause it's overly verbose, but complain that languages like perl look like line noise.


People hate OOP, but complain about organization of code.


People hate writing the same things over an dover again themselves, but java has APIs for lots of things, so you don't have to do so.


So php is being pushed into an OOP direction, not a clean implementation, the APIs are being provided, ugly as they may be, and things were never unverbose/cryptic... so what's the problem again?

Re:What's with the hate.. (3, Interesting)

afd8856 (700296) | more than 9 years ago | (#11690130)

I nice choice is python. Really easy to learn, really powerfull, runs on jvm (jython), has extremely powerfull web development tools (zope & plone, that's what I'm using, but there are more), is a general purpose language, meaning you won't get stuck to just webdevelopment, and is "mainstream" enough to have bindings to any major library.

I love it, so I fully recommend it. Actually, I was programming PHP for my websites until I've realized that my knowledge and experience of PHP will not be usefull in most other cases. So I've switched to python & zope and now I'm already on my 3d contract (I work for myself) using these tools. I didn't knew about drupal or xoop back then and I was dizgusted with postnuke and phpnuke (I don't remember which one is supposed to be GPL but you're not allowed to remove the credits at the bottom. Haha!)

So, if you're doing webdevelopment, do yourself a favor and visit plone.org . It might be tough learning it the first 2-3 months, but from there life is easy :)

Sorry for my "Engrish", I'm not native speaker.

Re:What's with the hate.. (1)

sporty (27564) | more than 9 years ago | (#11690231)

While I appreciate the value of Python, I would hate having to use it. I'm not fond of indent based block languages. Space-to-tab conversions would drive me nuts. :) But hey, if you like it, more power to you.


osCommerce has some ugly code if you are hunting.


Ruby all the way. Or perl. Or java. ;)

Re:What's with the hate.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11690541)

While I appreciate the value of Python, I would hate having to use it. I'm not fond of indent based block languages.

Neither am I. I would love it if Python used curly braces and semi-colons instead of indentation. Using it in web development in particular drives me nuts because it doesn't cope well with the indentation already present for the HTML. But I still use it because I'm much more productive in Python than anything else. Give it a try.

Re:What's with the hate.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11692934)

I used to hate the indent thing, but you really do get used to it. It's still often a pain, but there are actually worse things about the language than the indent (brokenness of super(), schizophrenic "old-style" vs "new-style" object model, etc). Just use the proper editor modes in emacs or vim. If you're forced to use it without either present, you may find that idle was installed with python, or on Windows, pythonwin.

To embed python inside web pages, however, is still madness. The indent thing will indeed drive you crazy. Infoseek did that, and it was horrible. However, most server-side python solutions use alternate syntaxes, either using brackets or if/endif for conditionals (webworks), or an outright new syntax (cheetah, which uses velocity syntax).

Ruby's definitely nice. I'd still be partial to lisp if its stream syntax wasn't so damn verbose.

People Hate Java (0, Troll)

mabu (178417) | more than 9 years ago | (#11690272)

People hate java 'cause it's overly verbose, but complain that languages like perl look like line noise.

People hate Java because it's a language that was born of an advertising campaign and not a specific need in the technology field.

People hate Java because the technology has been caught in the middle of several commercial interests and platform wars, which has crippled the promise of Java's stability and reliability.

People hate Java because it's a lie. Java promised a new generation language that was to be cross-platform compatible, but it's actually less cross-platform compatible than C/C++.

People hate Java because it's slow as molasses. Need an example? Take a look at Puzzle Pirates [puzzlepirates.com] , a very clever multiplayer online game, that because the developers were foolish enough to use Java, runs ten times slower than it should and is painful to use as a result.

People hate Java because it sucks. I'm sorry to those of you who are Java programmers and are finding less jobs, but no sane company wants to use this technology when there are other systems available that offer better performance, reliability and longevity.

Re:People Hate Java (1)

sporty (27564) | more than 9 years ago | (#11690563)


People hate Java because it's a language that was born of an advertising campaign and not a specific need in the technology field.

People hate Java because the technology has been caught in the middle of several commercial interests and platform wars, which has crippled the promise of Java's stability and reliability.



It's a language similar to cobol in purpose, w/o a lot of the features of cobol that make it harder to work with. One of the main purposes of java is to provide a more OOP like language, though it does fail in some resepects in comparisons to true OOP languages like python and ruby. It's very clear to read vs something like perl due to the simple language rules.


Over the years, the 10 or so years, the language has become quite stable and what not. Scalability is an issue due to the garbage collector, but just like any language, you learn not to do things in an odd/bad way, you can work with it well.


People hate Java because it's a lie. Java promised a new generation language that was to be cross-platform compatible, but it's actually less cross-platform compatible than C/C++.


It's cross platform on the largely used platforms. Not as an excuse for sun. It's just so. It does suck. Uh.. the end :)


People hate Java because it's slow as molasses. Need an example? Take a look at Puzzle Pirates, a very clever multiplayer online game, that because the developers were foolish enough to use Java, runs ten times slower than it should and is painful to use as a result.


Don't go looking at the graphics aspect. It's an anomoly of slowness among the things it does fast. It's also slow in object creation. But it is fast on execution of code. Stuff like the HotSpot feature in JVM can optimize on the fly..

People hate Java because it sucks. I'm sorry to those of you who are Java programmers and are finding less jobs, but no sane company wants to use this technology when there are other systems available that offer better performance, reliability and longevity.

Re:People Hate Java (1)

aled (228417) | more than 9 years ago | (#11694187)

It's a language similar to cobol in purpose, w/o a lot of the features of cobol that make it harder to work with.

What?? do you have any idea of Cobol and Java or you just trolling?
Let me ask:
a) What features of Cobol does suposedly Java has?
b) why do you say they are similar in purpose?
c) harder to work than what?

Re:People Hate Java (1)

sporty (27564) | more than 9 years ago | (#11696526)

1. Simplicity of language. The constructs are simple and straight forward. I don't know cobol in depth, but i can read it easier than /some/ other lanuages. ruby and python use a lot of dingbats in interesting ways, but i'd have to learn them.


2. They are more business like languages than practical languages for other purposes.. i.e. C for OSs and embeded systems, glue/expressive languages like perl, ruby and what not. This is not to say that languages like ruby and perl can't be used for other reasons, they can work well for other things.


3. OO has its strengths, and its the way the world is headed for business like function. It's not the end all of everything, but people like OO. Java also has a huge backer, Sun. c++ came in between somehow, but people are moving away from c++. due to the pointer stuff you can do? due to writing more hybrid stuff? the lack of standards for c, the underlying language? who knows. But it's great to be able to blame someone when something goes wrong. Sun is a good company to blame and have support contracts with.. at least it used to be...

Re:People Hate Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11690765)

People love Java because of Spring, Hibernate, Eclipse, JUnit and countless other open source tools and frameworks. Sure, there is a lot of ugliness surrounding Java, but there is a whole lot of good stuff that is getting used more and more these days.

Re:People Hate Java (1, Informative)

jilles (20976) | more than 9 years ago | (#11691314)

People who hate Java generally don't understand much of Java. You're an excellent example. You hate Java for the wrong reasons. That's dumb.

There are actually quite a number of valid reasons to dislike Java and to prefer php. You don't list a single one. At least hate it for the right reasons. As to explaining why you are wrong is a waste of my time. Sorry, I'm not in the idiot reducation business.

Re:People Hate Java (1)

curunir (98273) | more than 9 years ago | (#11693412)

Wow...you know nothing about Java, do you? I'd be willing to bet that you've never done any significant development in Java. As others have said, there's plenty of valid critiques of Java to be made, and you've made none of them.

People hate Java because it's a language that was born of an advertising campaign and not a specific need in the technology field.

This couldn't be more wrong. Java was created as a means for allowing platform-independant application development. Sun was doing fine in the server arena, but wasn't able to break into the desktop market because of the inertia that Microsoft had when it came to developers. We (developers) built software that ran on their (users) computers, and that was DOS/Windows. When it launched, Sun marketed it like crazy for obvious reasons, but that doesn't in any way mean that it wasn't addressing a specific technical need.

People hate Java because the technology has been caught in the middle of several commercial interests and platform wars, which has crippled the promise of Java's stability and reliability.

No, people hate applets because of Microsoft's successful resonse to Sun's attempt to position its product between developers and MSIE. Microsoft's non-compliant JVM and the resultant incompatabilities essentially killed applets (which weren't the greatest idea to begin with), but they did nothing to kill Java's prospects as a whole.

People hate Java because it's a lie. Java promised a new generation language that was to be cross-platform compatible, but it's actually less cross-platform compatible than C/C++.

Really? I find that I rarely have to make *any* modifications to the wars I develop for them to be deployed on whatever platform I'm switching to. Far more often, the modifications I have to make are due to deploying on a different AppServer. When I develop desktop applications, it's trivial to make them work on any platform supported by Java. Oh, and I don't have a single #ifdef in my code. Since I can't think of a single type of program that would be difficult to program in way that the jar file would run unedited on any of Java's supported platforms, would you mind providing an example?

People hate Java because it's slow as molasses.

Umm...1999 called, they'd like their argument back. Seriously though, for most of the desktop apps I write, users have no idea that its written in Java. Swing is a bit slower than native widget calls since it renders each component itself. But Java GUI != Swing. SWT apps are almost indistinguishable from native apps speed wise. People who judge SWT by Eclipse's performance ignore the fact that Eclipse is a huge application which introduces a ton of bloat above the SWT level.

In the server arena, there's just nothing better suited for building large, enterprise-scale web applications. .NET may emerge as a worthy competitor, but all the scripting languages are poor substitutes that perform significantly slower than Java.

Need an example? Take a look at Puzzle Pirates, a very clever multiplayer online game, that because the developers were foolish enough to use Java, runs ten times slower than it should and is painful to use as a result.

Ooh...a single example of a (probably) badly-coded java game. That really shows that Java is slow. I've got Azureus running right now and it doesn't seem slow. I must have just proved that Java is fast, right?

People hate Java because it sucks. I'm sorry to those of you who are Java programmers and are finding less jobs, but no sane company wants to use this technology when there are other systems available that offer better performance, reliability and longevity.

Ok, name one. Make the argument that it is better suited for a certain purpose than Java. Aside from game programming and perhaps AI or number crunching type applications, I can't see how you'd be all that successful. And if you want to believe that no one's hiring Java programmers, that's fine. But the last time I looked for a job (about 3 months ago), I posted my resume and had 6 interviews lined up by the end of the day.

As I said before there's plenty of critiques of Java that can be made. I hate AWT. I wish half the Java API wasn't deprecated in favor of some clunky replacement. And I wish that Java (the language spec) could be separated from Java (the VM) and Java (the API). But even despite all my gripes (and I have plenty more), it's usually the right tool for the job. If you want to consider me a Java zealot, that's your choice, but it has made my life as a programmer easier and has made it extremely easy for me to find work, so I'm not complaining.

Re:People Hate Java (1)

aled (228417) | more than 9 years ago | (#11694102)

People hate Java because it's a language that was born of an advertising campaign and not a specific need in the technology field.
Wrong. It was born to a specific need (to be used in settop boxes) but it overgrown it quickly.
Actually it fits very nicely in my work for a good language, safe, portable, binary compatible, with lots of libraries and high level.
If you have other requeriments good for you. Lots of people find it useful.

People hate Java because the technology has been caught in the middle of several commercial interests and platform wars, which has crippled the promise of Java's stability and reliability.
Lots of people use it without stability problems. Do you have any actual, real problem?

People hate Java because it's a lie. Java promised a new generation language that was to be cross-platform compatible, but it's actually less cross-platform compatible than C/C++.
Do you use a platform that doesn't have a Java implementation or are you just trolling?

People hate Java because it's slow as molasses. Need an example? Take a look at Puzzle Pirates, a very clever multiplayer online game, that because the developers were foolish enough to use Java, runs ten times slower than it should and is painful to use as a result.
While some Java applications, usually desktop, may be slower than native ones, server applications don't. In my P4 PC I don't really see any difference between native and Java.

People hate Java because it sucks. I'm sorry to those of you who are Java programmers and are finding less jobs, but no sane company wants to use this technology when there are other systems available that offer better performance, reliability and longevity.
"suck" is not an argument. Most probably means that you are a troll.

Re:What's with the hate.. (2, Insightful)

JimDabell (42870) | more than 9 years ago | (#11690333)

So php is being pushed into an OOP direction

That's just it - it isn't. PHP has made significant improvements to their object model in the 4.x and 5.x versions for those people that choose to use it. Everybody who doesn't like object-oriented programming can simply carry on using their own style and it doesn't affect them at all.

PHP programmers (4, Insightful)

InsaneCreator (209742) | more than 9 years ago | (#11689956)

Why is PHP become more like Java, when the PHP developer community seems to want anything but that to happen?

That's because most of the PHP programmers are uneducated writers of throw-away code. They are people who use PHP because they can make dynamic pages without needing to really learn anything; people who mix HTML and SQL; people who never bother to check for errors; people who think register_globals was a great idea, because they didn't have to type "complicated statements" like echo $_POST['somevar']; and the list goes on and on.

The most common argument I hear against PHP becoming more like Java is that now there are so many new things you need to learn. But this is not due to changes in the language making it harder to write crappy code - that's just as easy as it was before. The main reason for needing to learn new stuff seems to be the increasing number of competent programers in the PHP community who put pressure on the incompetent ones, who in turn pound their little fists on the table and cry that PHP is acquiring too many features from other languages. I'm sorry, but knowing the difference between "if" and "for" statements does not make you a programmer.

Ripping off Java is probbably the only real chance for PHP to be taken more seriously in the business world. After all, it worked for C#. ;-)

Zend broke latest version of PHP (2, Interesting)

mabu (178417) | more than 9 years ago | (#11690162)

When we upgraded to the latest version of PHP, which also required a Zend upgrade, several of our applications wouldn't work. I have reason to believe there's a serious bug [php.net] in the Zend engine which has crippled some functionality of PHP. We're still waiting for a fix so we can upgrade to a more secure version of PHP.

New Math? (-1)

BigLinuxGuy (241110) | more than 9 years ago | (#11690196)

In the Zend survey, 93% of respondents listed PHP as a primary language and 69% listed HTML.

only 18% of respondents named Java

OK, is it me not understanding the "new math" or does 93% + 69% + 18% = 170%, i.e., greater than 100%? Must be that electronic voting thing again....

Also, HTML is a markup language not a programming language.

The dot-bomb is dead. Long live the dot-bomb.

Sheesh!

No, multiple choices (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11690271)

Which fruits do you like?

Apples
Oranges
Bananas

You can choose all three, or two, or one or none.

First Perl, Now Java (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11690334)


Meh.

First they rip off Perl, then they rip off Java. Just another day in the PHP camp.

Something to consider (4, Funny)

Laxitive (10360) | more than 9 years ago | (#11690484)


If a piece of shit flies west at 60 miles per hour, is it going in the wrong direction?

-Laxitive

The Driving Force (2, Interesting)

Ridgelift (228977) | more than 9 years ago | (#11690716)

If such a small number of PHP users were involved with Java, what was the motivation to mimic Java's object model and move toward making PHP coupled to Java?

The Answer: MONEY.

PHP has become popular because it's easy to get started. Just cut and paste some scrap code in your HTML and you're in business. However, that same approach to building the language has led to a rat's nest of functions, without a whole lot of consistency. Although PHP's got one of the best documentations free on the web, in the long run if you scale your applications up you're going to need to put in a lot more elbow grease to make changes and maintain your code. Zend will be creating a market where maturing web applications will need the performance gains of their products.

So what's the alternative? I've been learning Ruby and the webframe work Ruby on Rails after reading a recent /. article [slashdot.org] . I'd be lying if I said it's been easy to learn. It hasn't. I'm not used to object oriented programming, and Ruby is pure OO. But even I can see at this stage of the game that Rails apps will be far easier to develop, maintain and make changes than similar code in Java or PHP. Rails still has performance hurdles to get over, but it's developing so fast that I'm sure it will match Java & PHP's speed (the framework's only been around for less than a year). Because Rails takes full advantage of the Ruby language, it's not something that will be ported to PHP or Java.

"Give 'em the razor, then sell 'em the blades" That's PHP and Java. Magically remove facial hair so you never have to shave again, that's Ruby and Ruby on Rails.

Ruby on Rails (1)

parvenu74 (310712) | more than 9 years ago | (#11691034)

Is there really that much of a chance that Zend will offend enough PHP'ers that this could be a big boost for Ruby on Rails or any other open source alternative to PHP?

Also, would it be accurate to presume that ASP.NET on MONO is not something of interest to PHP developers, but more of an alternative to J2EE folks?

Re:The Driving Force (2, Funny)

sribe (304414) | more than 9 years ago | (#11692892)

"Give 'em the razor, then sell 'em the blades" That's PHP and Java. Magically remove facial hair so you never have to shave again, that's Ruby and Ruby on Rails.

I for one do not want to program in a language that feels like having my beard waxed ;-)

(I am about to take a look at ROR myself, but your analogy made me cringe and cover my face with my hands.)

Re:The Driving Force (1)

pjay_dml (710053) | more than 9 years ago | (#11693283)

[quote] (I am about to take a look at ROR myself, but your analogy made me cringe and cover my face with my hands.) [/quote]

Quite the contrary with me! I was like "Thought so, now I know I'm switching". And I believe you missed the point. It is not about a waxing procedure (that would be nothing but an advanced PHP solution).

Ruby is a genetherapy, that makes sure, you will never have to shave again, by removing the folicals from the facial area. The best, you can even choose, if you want to keep the hair on the top of your head, or if you want to keep those handy eyebrows.


I have also started to look at Ruby and Railz, and I have been 'dreaming' ;) about creating my own CMS with it, as I haven't seen any project yet, that cought my attention. Any one know of any ?

Re:The Driving Force (1)

NullProg (70833) | more than 9 years ago | (#11695682)

PHP has become popular because it's easy to get started. Just cut and paste some scrap code in your HTML and you're in business.

You could not be closer to the truth.

Recently, our proffesionally paid VB programmer turned PHP wannabe copied and pasted the XML parser samples from php.net into our supposedly proffesional product. Needless to say, it got past QA, clients started using it. When they added additional XML entities not tested by QA, the Web Server crashed (this is an embedded Linux Box).

When I finally traced down the problem, I went to said VB/PHP programmer and asked what he was doing in the section of code in question (He was accessing a child array/tree that didn't exist in the XML file which caused a memory leak). He couldn't answer and looked at me dumbfounded. That led me to the documentation on php.net for the function call and low and behold. He copied the source line by line from the sample code.

For the same product, I've written a parser/validator in 'C' from scratch, but this guy doesn't have the brains or talent to understand XML/PHP or what it takes to be a proffesional programmer. I didn't say anything to the Boss. But it makes you wonder about ethics, and the lack of design/learning skills of the people coming out of universities these days.

As far as Ruby? When it's an ANSI or ECMA standard product provided by more than one vendor then come talk to me. As of now, its not cross platform or vertical (Java is, handhelds to Mainframes).

Good post,
Enjoy.

i think so (1)

pizza_milkshake (580452) | more than 9 years ago | (#11692250)

i used to be big into php4, i used it as my primary programming language for over 4 years. i don't like where zend is taking the language and have never used nor am i interested in 5. instead of making the language better they're just adding more junk onto it.

Re:i think so (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11692972)

Nothing's stopping you from continuing to use PHP4.

Try learning a real language sometime. You'll be amazed what simple things like modules can do for you.

Re:i think so (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11695898)

I cringe when people like you post statements like yours.

FUD (4, Interesting)

gabe (6734) | more than 9 years ago | (#11693096)

This article is FUD, pure and simple.

Everything added in PHP 5 has no effect at all on the casual or professional PHP programmer. They can go about writing their code exactly as they did with PHP 4, and PHP 3. That's because the PHP Group (the folks that develop the PHP product, not Zend) work very diligently (to some peoples' dismay) on ensuring as much backwards compatibility as possible.

All of the (very useful) OOP technology added in PHP 5 will help to push PHP into the enterprise market and allow business to build large apps using PHP. It's certainly not everything the enterprise will need, but it's a start. NONE of these additions make it any more complex for a PHP 4 user. ALL of the additions help make it possible to create well-designed web applications, though.

I used to have some respect for devshed.com because they always had interesting articles. The articles were a useful resource and quite helpful. I just don't understand why they're posting whining rants like this which do not help anyone in any way. Let this guy post it on his blog and be ignored like he should be.

Sadly, this is not the first time [devshed.com] Mr. Felton has written an article like this.

PHP: Now with room to Grow. (1)

danielDamage (838401) | more than 9 years ago | (#11696538)

I write PHP for a living, and started out as a basically 100% incompetent scripter who just knew HTML. I took a couple of programming classes at a community college (including a Java class) and then leveraged my minimal programming training to use PHP to do useful things with my weblog.

I went from being able to hardly even be able to put together a minimal Java program, to being able to do a huge amount in PHP. It was great, I got to write little referrer aggregators and blog quizzes, I even used register_globals! Ahhhh, those were the days.

Now I write some fairly robust applications in PHP, and sometimes it's useful for me to take a portion of the most complex business logic and have a more feature-rich object model to create it in. No options have been taken away from me, however, and there's not a single thing I can't do in PHP5 that I used to be able to do in PHP4.

Only now I have some things I always wanted: a better XML handling library, file and directory iterators, try/catch if I want it...

In a way, PHP was ALWAYS modeled after a C/Java-like syntax, and for me it felt very natural for it to move a little more in this direction. I can't understand what direction people would be hoping it went in? Perl?
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