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KOTOR II Pushed To Retail Too Soon?

Zonk posted more than 9 years ago | from the a-time-not-so-long-ago dept.

Role Playing (Games) 96

Gamespy has a Resident Cynic column, detailing his opinion that Knights of the Old Republic II was released prematurely. He has some good points to make, and interesting "could have been" details to share. From the article: "I'm not going to spoil the ending for you, nor even dwell too much further on what exactly the issue is, but believe me, it's there. I'm not talking about leaving the story open-ended in order to facilitate sequels. That's fine and I can thoroughly understand it. The problem is that they waste one of the creepiest bad guys in recent history, then promptly send your character off on a series of solo missions, and actually forget to even explain what's happening to the sidekicks you've spent so much time training and equipping."

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96 comments

I think you are confused (4, Funny)

MyLongNickName (822545) | more than 9 years ago | (#11715674)

The problem is that they waste one of the creepiest bad guys in recent history, then promptly send your character off on a series of solo missions, and actually forget to even explain what's happening to the sidekicks you've spent so much time training and equipping."

Obviously, this guy is talking about my job, not some silly game.

I agree... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11715701)

I haven't even finished the first one yet.

Sounds like Star Wars... (4, Funny)

EnronHaliburton2004 (815366) | more than 9 years ago | (#11715816)

they waste one of the creepiest bad guys in recent history, then promptly send your character off on a series of solo missions, and actually forget to even explain what's happening to the sidekicks you've spent so much time training and equipping."

Sounds like a true "Star Wars" product... they had to stay true to the Genre!

But I bet there were alot of cool special effects, and a cute robot or two.

Re:Sounds like Star Wars... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11722549)

No my friend has it. It didn't crap all over my childhood.

Re:Sounds like Star Wars... (1)

jtcm (452335) | more than 8 years ago | (#11739664)

and a cute robot or two.

I think HK-47 is adorable...but I wouldn't say that to his face.

HK-47: Explanation: There is a 98% probability that that this Jawa meatbag is searching for his missing companions.
Jedi: What about the other 2%?
HK-47: That he is looking for trouble and should be blasted right away. But that is just wishful thinking on my part.

HK-47: Advisement: Evisceration works well. Electrocution, blunt trauma, and decapitation are also effective, I understand.

HK-47: Would you shut up? I am not a dangerous psychopath!

Now _that_ is cute!

Ati video cards (4, Interesting)

phoenix.bam! (642635) | more than 9 years ago | (#11715860)

My roommates bought the game, crashes and freezes on his ati card. Forums are saying it is happening quite a bit on ati cards. Seems like the developers didn't take into account half the video card market.

Re:Ati video cards (4, Informative)

The Other White Boy (626206) | more than 9 years ago | (#11716152)

ive been having pretty massive issues on my new setup, and its an nvidia card.

the most irritating being that everytime it plays an ingame cinematic it changes to 640x480x60hz from the 1600x1200x75hz i'm playing at, which isnt so irritating (except everything on my second monitor gets shifted). the problem is that when it returns to the game engine after the movie its locked at about 5fps. i have to go into graphics settings and change something so it 'resets' and i get my full 75fps back.

if that bug would be fixed i could almost overlook the fact that conversations seem to break occasionally, people i have high influence with occasionally start hating me for no reason (mainly the handmaiden), and party members start referencing things ive never done.

almost =/

Re:Ati video cards (1)

redivider (786620) | more than 9 years ago | (#11716842)

the most irritating being that everytime it plays an ingame cinematic it changes to 640x480x60hz from the 1600x1200x75hz i'm playing at...

The same thing happened to me on KOTOR I, although I think I was running at 1024x768. Either way, it's just kind of annoying that all the cinematics look horrible because they're at such a low resolution. I don't remember having any framerate issues after the cinematics, but the resolution definitely changed.

And I have an ATI card, so its obviously not an issue with a particular card or driver or something.

Re:Ati video cards (1)

obeythefist (719316) | more than 9 years ago | (#11742488)

The cinematics look awful because they were written for the X-Box, although surely the X-Box could handle higher resolution playback. The wonders of console development, lowering the quality of a computer game near you!

Re:Ati video cards (1)

redivider (786620) | more than 9 years ago | (#11767665)

Yeah, actually that sort of makes sense. But you would think they could just re-render them at higher resolutions. It's pretty lame to use 640x480-only video in a PC game. It would have looked better if they were redone with the game engine.

Re:Ati video cards (1)

Worminater (600129) | more than 9 years ago | (#11730293)

i'm 20 hours in (i play in all the dialogue boxes) and have had the game crash once so far... I use 1600xwhatever w/ max everything (3000+ winni, 6800gt) the one crash was cause i alt tabbed like 20 times in 10 minutes cause i was having an irc concversation with someone while trying to play... We need dual monitor support where u can use like a kvm still switch to change screens for gaming; it wrecks havok at times:p (and i know, i use one big stretched screne w/ bblean, but there should be a way to run 2 mon and switch between em w/ out fucking games up...)

Re:Ati video cards (1)

obeythefist (719316) | more than 9 years ago | (#11742472)

I had serious issues with my 6800, but then I updated ForceWare (aka Detonator) to 66.93 and it is all running smoothly and without any problems.

Also, a patch is forthcoming shortly (already released for the European versions).

The game itself is okay so far but I haven't played through to the end so I can't confirm or deny what the reviewer had to say. It would be a shame because it's a nice enough game, although I enjoyed the original game immensely.

This game uses the same engine however, so should be sold as an expansion or add-on instead of a completely new game. I don't think games deserve a 2.0 unless they're based on a different engine.

Re:Ati video cards (1)

bucket74 (712690) | more than 9 years ago | (#11716159)

My roommates bought the game, crashes and freezes on his ati card. Forums are saying it is happening quite a bit on ati cards. Seems like the developers didn't take into account half the video card market.

I find that to be utterly insulting. They had the same problem with KotOR I & ATI cards. Bioware consistently blamed it on ATI's catalyst drivers but I always thought that was a weak failure to accept responsibility. Now granted the sequel has a new developer but that's garbage to not fix what is essentially a known, existing bug.

Re:Ati video cards (1)

Beyond_GoodandEvil (769135) | more than 9 years ago | (#11716307)

I had the occasional problem with KOTOR I with the drivers the card shipped with, but usually the VPU would recover, except the one time I won a swoop race and it crashed hard. Now, trying to run GTA Vice City with the drivers shipped w/ the card, that was an exercise in futility.

Re:Ati video cards (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11716357)

Now granted the sequel has a new developer but that's garbage to not fix what is essentially a known, existing bug.

The bug being that ATI's drivers suck ass? I mean, if you change the application and the developer and you still have problems, I'd start looking elsewhere for the reason.

Re:Ati video cards (1)

snuf23 (182335) | more than 9 years ago | (#11718743)

They changed the developers but the code base for KOTOR 2 was based off of the source from the original hence without additional bug fixing it suffers from similar problems.
One possible source of the problem could be that the engine was built with the Xbox graphic architecture in mind (nvidia based).

Re:Ati video cards (1)

obeythefist (719316) | more than 9 years ago | (#11742499)

I played the original KOTOR with a 9600XT with no problems.

I had problems with KOTOR2 on my LeadTek 6800, but updating the driver fixed all the issues.

Things to do if you experience issues with your ATI card:

1) Check LucasArts website. They have a list of specific video cards that have known issues.
2) Make sure you are running the latest drivers for your mainboard/GPU.
3) Make sure you aren't forcing FSAA/Aniso/etc through the ATI drivers - this can interfere with some games, especially games like KOTOR that like to control those features from within the game.
4) Switch off those features or try running the game with the bare minimum of detail. I have some issues with some games with certain graphics features enabled - for instance, MOHAA:PA doesn't work with Pixel Shader 2.0 enabled on my system.
5) Wait for the patch. LucasArts are releasing a patch for KOTOR2 very soon (europe patch is already out)

Re:Ati video cards (2, Interesting)

gl4ss (559668) | more than 9 years ago | (#11716480)

ok, but even if it was totally bug free..

it would still feel like a rushed, hacked on sequel with a WEAK ending.

seriously, when you get to the cool looking dark jedi.. just stop playing there and don't continue to the ending planet, and pretend that the endgame was worth it.

A Useful Fix (1)

Alaren (682568) | more than 9 years ago | (#11716862)

Ditto.

I eventually managed to get it to work smoothly on my 256MB Radeon 9600 (it started off freezing every five minutes, usually needed a cold reboot...).

But I had to make sure triple-buffering was enabled, and step my card down to 4X AGP instead of 8X. Thank goodness the Catalyst drivers let me do this.

But come on. An Athlon 64 3000+ with a Radeon 9600 should handle this dated engine without problems... especially since this is the same basic error all us ATI users had the first time around.

I'm enjoying the game, but it is very disappointing to have such issues, and will make me think twice about getting their less developed games.

Re:A Useful Fix (1)

obeythefist (719316) | more than 9 years ago | (#11742514)

Funny you should say that. There's a known issue with NForce 3 chipsets and certain versions of the 9600XT card. Once I set myself down to 4x, all the issues went away. Could this be related to the issues you're experiencing? I have a 3000+ at home and had all the same problems until I lowered the multiplier. Now I'm running a 6800 and everything is perfect.

The Catalyst drivers don't have a choice if you set the AGP multiplier to 4 in your BIOS.

Re:Ati video cards (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11733280)

Works fine on my built by Ati X800 pro...

xbox version (1)

fluxrez (844819) | more than 9 years ago | (#11715947)

I purchased the xbox version I love it I havent gotten to the ending yet but Im not really that interested in my sidekick's stories

Re:xbox version (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11718328)

"I purchased the xbox version I love it I havent gotten to the ending yet but Im not really that interested in my sidekick's stories"

OMG I dont know why Xbox fanboys write like this Im going to ask my brother but anyway good luck on trying to get hooked on phonics I hear its really good everybody says so but Im not interested so maybe Ill stop talking about it now and play some Xbox because it has extreme graphics and extreme grammar but people should try it and please tell me about it when youre finished OK thanks

(xbox version and Re:xbox version have been brought to you by fluxrez and Anonymous Coward. Thank you.)

Re:xbox version (1)

nomadic (141991) | more than 8 years ago | (#11737255)

Well you'll be able to be interested in them for years because you'll never find out what happens to them. I loved the game, I thought the ending was cool, definitely play to the end, but it's like they skipped a few dozen cutscenes.

Re:xbox version (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11747478)

I just wanted to get a light saber. If I want stories, I'll read a book.

A massive letdown - it's unfinished (5, Interesting)

diseasesofseamen (816416) | more than 9 years ago | (#11716091)

I just finished it the other night. Without a doubt, the ending was vastly simplified at some point. It's ruined for me, almost completely. It's not what was advertised, certainly. All the complex interactions between characters, the careful building up of influence, the moral issues raised - it is all simply frittered away. It's one of the worst endings to any RPG I've ever seen, and I've played a ton. This regrettable state of affairs does lend heavily to one of three conclusions:

1) there was a major disagreement among the creators in the coding or script writing that led to a bad compromise with the ending;

2) time constraints forced a rush job that cut out anything deeply non-essential to shipping;

3) they just couldn't deliver on the ambitious nature of the plot.

It might have been all three. I certainly don't want to think the last, but this was a new studio doing the sequel. They certainly delivered a great game right up to the 'end sequence', then dropped the ball in a way that KOTOR certainly did not.

Spoilers to follow...

In the first KOTOR, the endings left the state of the party more or less known, as most of their tales were resolved before the final battle.

But here, save for perhaps Visas, none of the side characters' stories are resolved. (I played a light-side Jedi, BTW). Why bother putting HK-47 back together, or awakening the Force in anyone? No one save Kreia plays a significant role in the endgame, and I can't even sway her fate. It just turned into a Sith kill-fest and completely lost the questy, thoughtful nature that had been developed for 20+ hours of play.

And in the end, the Ebon Hawk just soars off. To where? Why? Who's at the controls? Did anyone survive the crash? My entire party just evaporated save for Mira and that annoying floating droid.

Kriea's whole plan is the height of Bizarro logic; she makes Malak in the first game look alarmingly sane. Her buddies Sion and Whatsits-with-the-mask were anticlimatic pushovers, also; they folded too easily and served no greater purpose than speed bumps.

When Kriea says, 'there is no great revelation' in the end, I knew I'd been screwed. Because there needed to be one. I expected some classic Star Wars drama - "I'm Balista/Revan/someone-other-than-an-insane-preachy -witch, looking for redemption by destroying everything, starting with you." and I didn't get it.

This was not the kind of story that needed a Patrick O'Brian-style adrupt ending. It needed an epilogue at the very least, beyond Kriea's musings before the main character is set off into the void.

Re:A massive letdown - it's unfinished (4, Interesting)

savagexp (531372) | more than 9 years ago | (#11716644)

The Dark-Side ain't any better, my friend.

***SPOILERS***

Something for anybody to try: Before you go into your final battle with Kriea, Save your game (you've probably done this anyway, since you've just defeated Sion and you're expecting some great kick-assery to be coming). Before/during/after your battle with Kriea, there will be obvious light/dark dialogue choices. Stick with one or the other and you'll be able to see either light or dark ending.

The build-up is pointless. The influence gained is pointless. The whole freegin' game up to the final "battle" is pointless! When you can literally select your good guy/bad guy ending just with two dialogue choices at the end, you know there's a problem.

Oh, and here's the only real difference between light/dark: Dark Side, you don't find out SHIT about the sidekicks. You just assume they died because the Ebon Hawk fell into oblivion at some point. Then, the final shot has the camera panning away from the planet, there's just no Ebon Hawk flying in it.

Re:A massive letdown - it's unfinished (5, Informative)

taion (304184) | more than 9 years ago | (#11717030)

If you dig around on the forums, you'll see signs of the original ending, which was very PS:T-y. Apparently it was even in some preview builds, which was what was referenced when the previewers talked about influence mattering and absolutely heartrending endings. The stuff was all written, too. No clue why it didn't make it in --- maybe LucasArts decided that having an ending that actually tugged on anybody's emotional strings would've been too much?

The stuff is here [obsidianent.com], but you'll need to go to the second page to see that formatted in a way that's really readable. If you dig around in the proper directories, you can actually find the freaking recorded dialogue for those scenes. It really rather annoys me that they lobotomised what would've been a spectacularly touching ending.

Re:A massive letdown - it's unfinished (2, Informative)

th3walrus (191223) | more than 9 years ago | (#11716653)

From what I understand there were differences depending on how you played through the game.

I played Dark Side Sith Lord class and got a really lame ending. After I finished the last battle it just sorta zoomed out into space and cut to game over. No Ebon Hawk flying away even. I believed it had crashed down into the depths of the planet killing all the side characters. The cut scene before the endgame portion made it seem that way.

My wife, on the other hand, played through Light Side Jedi Knight and apparantly Kreia explained the fate of all the side characters to her. Not sure her final ending cutscene was any better than mine, but at least she got told what happened. I just had to assume...

And at the end of the game I still had no idea what the story was about. What Scion and mask dude had anything to do with besides being bad guys for you to beat? I just didn't get it. I still don't.

Re:A massive letdown - it's unfinished (1)

FozzieCDN (798889) | more than 9 years ago | (#11717581)

I can confirm that you do indeed get to see the future of your sidekicks if you play the game right. I have done it as a light side character and had enough influence with her that there you are able to offer her redemption, she is touched but declines offering to destroy herself as well but before she does she will tell you of the future. Kreia will tell you what happens to each person as well as other key items and objects in the game world that you have encountered before you redeem her. I agree that it was a bit wierd to not interact with the rest of your party at the end, but the story was never about them.

As for her goal/purpose for the whole thing. She was the Master of Scion and Maskdude until they both teamed up to overthrow her (as revealed in her backstory if you get enough influence with her). As for her involvement with your character, its more of a 'one last chance' to teech a pupil who is worthy such as Revan was when she trained him/her.

As for the game itself, think of it like Empire Strikes back, because its how the guys at Obsidian looked at the game. Sure the ending is very much open, but it was done intentially to foreshadow that there is more of a story to come here. Sure we all wanted more, but you have to admit what they delivered was a far better story, role playing game and star wars themed product than its predicessor gave out.

Re:A massive letdown - it's unfinished (1)

th3walrus (191223) | more than 9 years ago | (#11717672)

I suppose the influence system was a large problem then. I missed out on much of the game story because I wasn't nice or agreeable to my sidekicks. Seems kind of unfair to say "We'll let you play a mean character, but then you don't get to know what's going on in the game". Couldn't they just as easily allowed you to intimidate or even beat the information out of your sidekicks?

Re:A massive letdown - it's unfinished (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11718249)

My wife, on the other hand, played through Light Side Jedi Knight and apparantly Kreia explained the fate of all the side characters to her. Not sure her final ending cutscene was any better than mine, but at least she got told what happened. I just had to assume...

You can get Kreia to explain the fates of your characters even if you're Dark Side (trust me, I was a right bastard and I still got them). It's just that the conversation options you have to choose to get her to mention them aren't the most obvious choices for a Dark Side character.

Re:A massive letdown - it's unfinished (1)

mbourgon (186257) | more than 9 years ago | (#11719224)

Why bother putting HK-47 back together, or awakening the Force in anyone?
  • It's cool to know that you're making Jedi. I had 2 or 3 members of my party "go Jedi", and there was (I think) at least one more. Pretty cool - you're essentially helping restart the Jedi Order, by "creating" all these Jedi.
  • For the HK-47s, I got the feeling (played the Xbox version, fwiw) that there was a missing encounter/planet. You run across the other HKs a couple of times, and get a "tracking beacon" - my suspicion was that there was supposed to be some sort of "area" (be it a planet, an area, a map, etc) where you got to take out the HK factory. Never happened, though, and I was curious why. Now I have an answer - LucasArts is greedy.
Overall, I thoroughly enjoyed the game, especially the jedi explanation about levelling up. Very clever. But yes, the end-game needed a bit more work. I'm still awaiting KOTOR III.

Re:A massive letdown - it's unfinished (3, Insightful)

Rallion (711805) | more than 9 years ago | (#11719917)

More spoilers here

I can't agree more. Some things to add, as a fellow light-sider.

There MUST have been more planned to the Mira sidestory. I mean, come on, she just meets Hanharr again, kills him, and that's the end of it? And it still never made any sense as to why Kreia saved him in the first place, really.

NONE of the characters side-stories were fleshed out as well as it seems they were supposed to be, HK-47 especially. Mandalore, and the mechanic guy, Atton...MAYBE they're good enough. But not really even them. Even the astromech droid could have used a little more plot behind him -- they do hint at more.

As for wasting the creepiest villian I've seen lately...uh...yeah. Seriously. None of that made ANY sense to me. They rushed it so that it didn't even seem IMPORTANT that you were killing him, because the game was never clear on how evil he was. The whole end of the game was just very confusing, with big gaps in it. I compare that to the first game, where you know pretty damn well what Malak's up to by the end of the game, everything is very well explained, and so you have some sense of purpose.

The game had HUGE potential. The improvements over the first one in gameplay were nice, really very nice, if minor. But the sorry state the game released in threw it all away.

Re:A massive letdown - it's unfinished (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11768837)

If you comb through the dialogue files using KOTOR Tool, you can find the "cut" ending, including a bit more stuff with Krei/Hanharr/Mira. What's interesting is that while it's slightly longer (four or five sentences, maybe), it makes no more sense. I can only assume that the Mira sequence would have seemed less absurd when a number of characters got to have their own special scene (e.g., Atton's with Sion, Handmaiden vs. Visas, etc.).

With the XBOX 2 out by Christmas... (1)

SetupWeasel (54062) | more than 9 years ago | (#11716101)

they probably had to release it this past Christmas if they wanted a decent profit.

Re:With the XBOX 2 out by Christmas... (1)

Taladar (717494) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729948)

Nice!

You found a way to blame the ruining of this promising game to MS!

Bugs? We've got bugs! (5, Interesting)

Ahnteis (746045) | more than 9 years ago | (#11716166)

Bugs I've found:

1) Incredibly bad pathfinding. Even the character you control sometimes has trouble walking over to that container 3 feet away to open it.

2) Impossible quests. Sometimes your actions will render a quest impossible to finish. Not such a problem except they will haunt your quest journal for the rest of the game.

3) Buggy quests. DO NOT FIGHT THE HANDMAIDENS. This scripted arena-style challenge seems to work fine. However, if you do it, the next level will not load correctly and you'll be stuck staring at a black screen. Hooray!

4) Rushed scripting. (First game had similar problems.) I've almost given up on using any sort of stealth in the game because you will be sneaking along in solo mode (rest of your party hiding behind a rock) and suddenly you'll hit a script spot. Magically, all enemies can suddenly see you (and converse with you) AND the rest of your party will be conveniently teleported (isn't that a Star TREK thing?) to your location. Hooray! WHY don't they check to see if the NPCs can see you?!

5) Low FPS in areas. I have an AMD 2700+, 1.5GB RAM, and a geforce 6600GT. There are STILL certain areas where the framerate just gives up and dies. (It's not just *my* computer if that's what you're thinking.)

I'm not to the point the article mentions where storyline is thrown out the window yet. So far the story is fairly compelling although there are a few items they seem to hint at and then abandon.

Re:Bugs? We've got bugs! (1)

superpulpsicle (533373) | more than 9 years ago | (#11716250)

K, you shouldn't bring up the graphics card part. All PC games have some degree of problems with Nvidia and ATI cards, that's assumed.

When the plot's missing, that's a real bug. When the graphics card display half the pictures, that's just the norm.

to quote chris morris (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11719248)

"You're wrong, and you're a grotesquely ugly freak."

And to make this a useful post rather than a random flame, I cite Grand Theft Auto, the original, in software mode. You NEVER get graphics glitches if you don't enable hardware acceleration :)

Re:Bugs? We've got bugs! (1)

nomadic (141991) | more than 8 years ago | (#11737288)

3) Buggy quests. DO NOT FIGHT THE HANDMAIDENS. This scripted arena-style challenge seems to work fine. However, if you do it, the next level will not load correctly and you'll be stuck staring at a black screen. Hooray!

My favorite was the time I had a conversation with the handmaiden, then when it ended we went to the loading scene and suddenly I was by myself in the handmaiden base with no NPCs around, an ebon hawk I couldn't board, and nothing else. I wasted time there for an hour running around trying to do stuff before I figured it was a bug and restored.

Re:Bugs? We've got bugs! (1)

Creepy (93888) | more than 8 years ago | (#11739443)

I knew I was going to see a lot of bugs when I found the Pazaak tutorial had problems (as I recall, there's a choice where you can't go against the dialog, even if it means you're going to lose, which happens a lot if you're using cards with negatives).

Then there's the lack of hints/tips - like the next to impossible swoop races (I've only done the first, spent 8 hours trying to win and my best time was 42 seconds - still 1 sec off from beating the game's top time). I can't imagine how someone that didn't play the first would ever win - heck, they don't tell you how to start, speed up, jump - nothing - you have to figure it out. In the first at least you'd win the first few races by missing a few of the boost points - not in this - you need to hit something like 10 of 12 to win while dodging an obstacle course that made the first game's hardest track look easy. Most XBox owners I know just used the cheat, which doesn't work on PC as far as I can tell (or my timing was bad).

Re:Bugs? We've got bugs! (1)

aurum42 (712010) | more than 8 years ago | (#11739614)

Well, you're lucky you managed to get the game to acknowledge you won a race. There are a couple of bugs that I've encountered with swoop racing on Telos (I've basically stopped playing at this point, due to complete dissatisfaction with the product, not just bug related - the story isn't cohesive at all).

  • If you happen to ever forfeit a race (by hitting escape then F, as I recall), the PC version of the games gets into a state where it thinks you've forfeited all races..even if you happen to score the top score.
  • Even if you don't forfeit a race, the current state of my game is that a winning time is never acknowledged. I got a time of 44 seconds on my second try (I didn't try for the top score, but 44 seconds wasn't too hard), and the very bland (compare to the Hutt on tattoine in KotOR1, for instance - all the KotOR2 characters seem quite 2-dimensional in comparison) swoop racing official says "nice try but you didn't beat any records"; however, when you ask him to list the track records, your name comes up. Which is nice and all, but you don't get any reward for winning, or the adulation of the masses (if they bothered to code any of that..I tend to doubt it).
Also, see this thread [slashdot.org] on the game

Re:Bugs? We've got bugs! (1)

Creepy (93888) | more than 9 years ago | (#11805628)

Yep, forfeiting (pre-patch) has that bug. There is now a patch out, but I haven't had a chance to test it to see if the problem is solved. I avoided it by saving before the swoop and reloading if I forfeited. Getting 44 sec times wasn't hard, but 41 seemed impossible - I think I missed two of the boosters, and those near the end, and still ended up with 42 seconds. I missed 2 boosters in the staged race on a different planet (Dantoonie?) and still beat the top time in about an hour of play, so I'm glad I gave up - the 500 credits aren't worth it. Not to mention that the track was more interesting.

I agree, though, something seems skew with the view perspective making the characters look kind of flattened. It may be a byproduct of using a certain resolution, though, so I plan to test a different resolution and see if it fixes things (I'm currently at 1024x768 and I think the "base" of the PC version of the game is 800x600)

I've also been disappointed with most of the planets - very bland and not a whole lot to figure out on them. The exception is probably the Exchange homeworld, aside from combat on that world has been far too easy, especially after the Sith homeworld (I suspect it wasn't meant to be played in that order, but you can do it).

Re:Bugs? We've got bugs! (1)

aurum42 (712010) | more than 9 years ago | (#11807136)

I don't see a patch (just tried the auto-updater), and neither obsidian's site nor Lucas Arts's page mention a patch - obsidian's site says something about a "patch coming soon". Obsidian's support forum has an interesting thread about the audio in the game - apparently the music in the game is 10kHz Mono, encoded at 48kbps, which is a travesty. This might have been because of xbox constraints, but feh - couldn't they have supplied quality stuff for PCs? And apparently the xbox can handle higher quality streams as well, so perhaps it was just sheer incompetence.

Ok Story just way too many bugs (1)

pboyd2004 (860767) | more than 9 years ago | (#11716289)

I didn't think the story was all that bad. It didn't quiet live up to the plot twist of the first story but then again what were they going to do manke Revan your father or mother depending on the first game?

The biggest problem i had were with the numerous bugs in the game at its release. Timing issues where entire conversations would fly by without ever pausing for me to read, numerous crashes, and several quests that had no apparent tie to the story or even an end where my biggest problems.

Why can't software developers ever just wait to release a product until it is actually ready?

Re:Ok Story just way too many bugs (1)

Tepshen (851674) | more than 9 years ago | (#11716383)

Why can't software developers ever just wait to release a product until it is actually ready?

when you say things like this you only encourage duke nukem and starcraft ghost developers to take longer.

Re:Ok Story just way too many bugs (1)

AsbestosRush (111196) | more than 9 years ago | (#11716640)

You make it sound like this is a problem...

Well, OK, Daikatana had 5 years and still sucked...

But I'll chalk that one up to "poor management". :)

Re:Ok Story just way too many bugs (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11717756)

Does anyone really care about either of those?

Re:Ok Story just way too many bugs (1)

UberChuckie (529086) | more than 9 years ago | (#11716449)

"Why can't software developers ever just wait to release a product until it is actually ready?" It's called business. It's important to release a product at the right time to get marketshare. For games, the publisher decides when a game is shipped and not the people who are actually making the game.

Re:Ok Story just way too many bugs (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11718375)

I'd argue that they have no idea what the "right time" is. Otherwise, every bleeding company on the planet wouldn't be trying to get all of their games out in the month before Christmas.

I only have so much time (and money), fellas. There's no way in hell I'll be able to buy and play all the games I'd like to if you release them all at the same time.

So glad (5, Interesting)

TheAdventurer (779556) | more than 9 years ago | (#11716483)

I am so glad this came up.

I was an enormous fan of KOTOR I. I beat it multiple times and loved everything about it.

KOTOR II is one of the most pointless, frustrating, and boring games I've ever played.

It suffers from multiple bugs. (I had to restart my game at one point because of a fatal crash... on the xbox). It has horrible slowdowns and stutters during battles. The load times are on average 4-5 seconds longer than KOTOR I load times. (In computer time, 5 seconds is a LONG time.)

And the story was a total lump of bullshit. It barely made sense, it never inspired me to complete the game (even though I did, out of pure frustrated desire to see something coherent happen), and the characters were useless and paper thin.

Shame on Obsidian for taking such a royal shit on this game, and what could have been an enduring franchise.

God damn that game was disappointing.

Re:So glad (1)

snorklewacker (836663) | more than 9 years ago | (#11717068)

And the story was a total lump of bullshit. It barely made sense, it never inspired me to complete the game (even though I did, out of pure frustrated desire to see something coherent happen), and the characters were useless and paper thin.

Sounds like George Lucas had a hand in it.

Re:So glad (1)

sammaffei (565627) | more than 9 years ago | (#11718777)

Totally Agreed. I felt like I was punished for choosing the dark side with that ending. Went to eBay the day after I finished. Dark Side killing got to be ho-hum after a while.

Re:So glad (1)

startled (144833) | more than 9 years ago | (#11719416)

I am so glad this came up.

I was an enormous fan of KOTOR I. I beat it multiple times and loved everything about it.


I think this is part of the reason they thought they could get away with it. Kotor 1 was rushed out the door, with some ridiculous bugs that would never have made it out of MS certification if they hadn't needed it to pump up XBox sales.

Crashes, corrupted save games, save games in areas you couldn't get past-- I had to completely abandon my character 30 hours in, right near the end, because something I did made the game uncompletable an hour or so later (at which point I'd already saved over those slots). Those are just the rare, really big problems. The minor ones happened for everyone-- camera in the middle of someone's head, random guys standing in front of the camera for an entire cutscene so you can't see anything, etc..

Still, the rest of the game was so good, and the savegame corruption was infrequent enough, that people forgave it. Perhaps justified, but then they rushed Kotor II out the door the same way, but even worse this time.

Finally, someone's calling them on it, though I don't know if it'll be enough to stop them from doing it a third time.

Re:So glad (1)

dougmc (70836) | more than 9 years ago | (#11720764)

The load times are on average 4-5 seconds longer than KOTOR I load times. (In computer time, 5 seconds is a LONG time.)
Even so, KOTOR2 has some of the fastest load times I've seen in a long time. Seriously, I can take a breath, click on the KOTOR2 icon, click through the movies/logos, load a game, and be up and playing (wiht a saved game even loaded) before I needed to take a breath again. (And no, I can't hold my breath terribly long. Less than a minute, though I think the entire procedure only takes about 25 seconds.)

Compare to HL2, which took like six minutes to get loaded if my computer had just started (time to start Steam, though it did get better later on) or Doom3 which still took a few minutes.

I'm still playing through KOTOR2, and I'm really enjoying it. I've noticed some quirks -- I'm done with Nar Shaddah, and all of the bounty hunters are still hanging around the place, even though I've killed them all, and one is now part of my party. Lots of little scripting things too -- I've beat some bad guy, and now I can talk to him and have the exact same discussion as before, then we fight again, but it's a very short fight as he's out of hit points ...

I hope the ending isn't as disappointing as everybody has claimed ... I haven't really read those posts carefully. But so far, the game is rocking. My wife is threatening to leave, my children haven't been bathed in days ...

Re:So glad (2, Interesting)

FortranDragon (98478) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729904)


Don't blame Obsidian, blame LucasArts. Many of the promo videos stated that the game for both XBox and PC would be out in February. LucasArts was the one that moved the XBbox release date up by a couple of months. When a chunk of your schedule is ripped away from you something has to give. :-(

My feelings (4, Interesting)

mfterman (2719) | more than 9 years ago | (#11716811)

KOTOR II had a lot of stuff that should have been in KOTOR I. For example, the upgrade system was much improved, as well as being able to have two weapon sets to switch between instantly and in some cases, automatically.

I also liked the concept that your Light/Dark choices would have an impact on who you got for a companion, and to a lesser extent your gender would as well. If anything, I thought that they didn't go far enough with this angle.

They were also doing an amazing job, up until the Jedi Enclave on Dantooine of building up an incredible sense of atmosphere and tension. There were all sorts of hidden angles going on there between all of the characters. Even nice little T3-M4 was prone to even creepy behavior at various points.

And it all fell apart after that. One of the reasons I'm so terribly disappointed with the ending of KOTOR II is that they had such a powerful setup and they fell short of that. It could have been a truly mind blowing game and in the end they weren't able to sustain it.

i thought the first one was lame... (0)

araczynski (265221) | more than 9 years ago | (#11716815)

so am not surprised that they made the second one even more so. i guess i'm just old school and consider rpg's only to be based on knights and dragons/orcs and crap like that. SW is only good for FPS material. or RTS.

Re:i thought the first one was lame... (3, Informative)

Xner (96363) | more than 9 years ago | (#11718172)

That is not oldschool, that is just plain ignorant.

Historically, the very first batch of pen-and-paper contained a good section of fantasy representation. All from most likely well before you were even born. Gamma World, RIFTS, the original star wars RPG, all jewels from teh golden age of roleplaying. And by roleplaying i mean rollplaying.

The reason is simple.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11717075)

Bioware was not involved in the sequel. Someone else picked up the code and churned this game out.

Any improvements that would have went into this sequel will end up in Bioware's Jade Empire.

http://jade.bioware.com/

To bad it's only for XBOX. I hope it's released for the PC because it sure looks like a cool game.

I've heard it was ex Black Isle people (1)

rsilvergun (571051) | more than 9 years ago | (#11719274)

which makes it all the more non sensical that it would suck. I mean, these are the guys who brought us Planescape:Torment (go play it, right now, don't even finsh reading the comment!). I didn't have high hopes for Kotor II, Kotor I sucked for everyone but Starwars and Xbox fan boys (weak graphics in later levels, totally linear leveling up, 2D characters who don't give a shit if you're evil or good. Tacked on Side quests, etc, etc. Yes, I have reasons for disliking it. Hell, I bought a new Graphics Card so I could play it). Some part of me hoped Black Isle could save it, but I'm sure with the production schedual they were on it was hopeless. I've read some good things about it (light side characters leaving when you go Dark Side, better leveling, etc). Oh well, The Witcher is on the way, and without a big license maybe it'll get proper treatment. Damn though, Torment was so good, I really want another game from these people.

Re:I've heard it was ex Black Isle people (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11720977)

Ex Black Isle?

Could people finally stop to put nonsensical praise on everyone who happend to live in the same building as the few people that did Fallout?

Frankly, even Black Isle produced more shit than good titles and had been living of BioWare's infinity engine for years. Everything remotely successful (and no, PS:T was not commercially successful) after Fallout was created either by BioWare (Baldur's Gate) or by taking BioWare's Engine and squeezing it for cash (Icewind Dale)

Troika is a good example of "Ex Black Isle". Three ambitious PC games, bug infested and commercially not successful and people still blame the publishers for their demise, even if, miraculously, a lot of developers can work just fine with these publishers.

Stop it!

Re:I've heard it was ex Black Isle people (1)

Taladar (717494) | more than 9 years ago | (#11730002)

Taking a working engine isn't bad. In fact less developers should try to develop a new engine and more should concentrate on story. I would have loved to see more games with a story like Baldur's Gate I and II or Planescape Torment and the same engine. Icewind Dale I and II were not that good IMO but that isn't the fault of the engine, the linear storyline is more to blame for that.

IWD (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11733088)

>Icewind Dale I and II were not that good IMO

They're both great when you play them multiplayer. Get your friends online, roll a character each, have a hack'n'slash ball.

That way you take the weak part (story) and turn it around into a feature. When you MP you don't care about the story anyhow, it's just about doing combat and finding strategies together with your friends.

Re:I've heard it was ex Black Isle people (1)

harrkev (623093) | more than 9 years ago | (#11730524)

There is nothing wrong with using an existing engine. I am not an expert, but I can imageine in my mind how a game is made, and I imagine two different types of people:

1) Creative types. These people come up with the plot and story. These people make or break a game.

2) Programmer types. These guys code the whole thing. They do not have to know about plot, just how to play sounds and throw stuff on the screen. If they do not do their job, the games can be unplayable due to bugs. However, no amount of effort on their part can make a game great if the creative types have not done their job.

Of course, a game also needs people to paint all of the pretty pictures and make up the sounds, as well as cast voice actors, handle the sound, etc. But by using a proven, debugged engine, you decrease the risks.

And I do not play RPGs for the graphics. I still find the Fallout series to be some of the best gaming ever, and that game will run on a Pentium 120 with a 2D graphics card. Eye candy is nice, but give me a nicely-developed plot and great playability any day!

Re:I've heard it was ex Black Isle people (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11736307)

welp, im neither a starwars fanboy or own an Xbox and i loved the game..

thanks for speaking on my behalf though, i'll try and do the same for you one day

This bodes ill for NWN2 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11717126)

Considering that Obsidian Entertainment is also developing Neverwinter Nights 2, their bungling of KotOR II worries me.

Re:This bodes ill for NWN2 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11717985)

Can't help but agree there, and unlike KoToR, NwN doesn't have that strong of a back story to build off of. If they did this poorly with a universe as well understood and played out as Star Wars, how the heck are they going to deal with what amounts to their own IP?

Bioware (1)

king-manic (409855) | more than 9 years ago | (#11717235)

Goes to show, never trust a major Starswars franchise RPG with anybody except Bioware. Those canucks knows thier starwars and how to make an ending.

Re:Bioware (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11717567)

There is your reason why Bioware said No when Lucasarts asked them to do KotOR 2. It is not possible to create a decent RPG in 12 month, even with EA like crunch.

Re:Bioware (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11717716)

Sorry, I thought the ending to KOTOR was pretty crap too, in that you could take a particular action without gaining ANY dark side points, an action that is CLEARLY against the star wars mythos....

SW is *not* about cutting off the head of your defeated enemy. That sort of wrecked the ending for me. (Why did I do it? Well, I was playing a more neutral character, who was holding a grudge against that particular enemy for the whole lying thing. Taking that action should have been proof that I wasn't so goody-goody after all.)

Just like the movies! (1)

happyhippy (526970) | more than 9 years ago | (#11718295)

Darth Maul, a brilliant answer to replacing Vader as the main baddy. And so evil and menacing he could have been the main enemy of all the triology.
BUT WAIT A MINUTE LETS HAVE HIM KILLED TO RUIN THE HYPE AND IN A STUPID AND RETARDED WAY! WE NEED MORE JAR JAR!.

So disappointed (1)

urikkiru (801560) | more than 9 years ago | (#11718299)

I went through, like many others thinking of the nice story setup. I even ignored insane scripting bugs, pathfinding problems, and the occasion fps or crash. Then I get to the end of the game, and it immediately falls to pieces. I just stopped playing, it was the most disappointing game in years, with such a great beginning. Honestly, regardless of whether or not it's obsidian's fault directly, you won't see me purchase anything of theirs in the next few years. Voting with your wallet is the best way, frankly.

Holiday games suck. (1)

supabeast! (84658) | more than 9 years ago | (#11718511)

There's a simple rule of thumb to follow when it comes to games released from Mid-November through the third week of December - unless you have already played it enough to know damned well that the game is done and good, don't buy it, because it was probably rushed to pick up holiday sales. The best example that comes to mind is Gran Turismo 2, which had to be recalled because unfinished features (Such as a drag racing mode) described in the manual and advertisements had to be dropped at the last minute to get the game out.

Just got it (1)

Parabolic Photon (860814) | more than 9 years ago | (#11718745)

Well. It sounds like I'm in for quite a ride with this game. I've only just started it. So I guess I'll just have to hope and pray that the glitches I've read about stay to a minimum for myself.

It's Not a Bad Game (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11719202)

I was a fan of KOTOR I, and I have to say that this game is not bad. People complain about crashes, but they don't matter if you save often. In addition, this crappy ending is not the fault of Obsidian but LucasArts. Dialog has been found in the pc game files for unseen cutscenes. This forum describes the left out stuff: http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic= 29764&st=15 [obsidianent.com]

Like we haven't seen this before (1)

aztektum (170569) | more than 9 years ago | (#11719474)

Why this got posted, I dunno. This happens all the time with video games. Especially sequels that are slated for release so soon after the original.

Second, this game was out on Xbox 2 months ago and yeah I'm sure the PC audience is more the /. type of crowd, however it's the same frickin' game contentwise, yet we didn't have a rant fest back in December.

Sign The Petition to Have the Content Restored! (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11720601)

There is a petition in need of sigs to have the missing content (the endings at least) restored to the game.

http://www.petitiononline.com/kotor2/ [petitiononline.com]

It may be a futile hope, but it's all us mere mortal consumers can muster these days.

Taking a butcher knife to the ending of an RPG is (3, Interesting)

Kaorimoch (858523) | more than 9 years ago | (#11722045)

..an absolutely unforgiveable sin.

Do it to a FPS and no one will notice though :)

Anyway, I'm still trying to play it despite having to reboot my computer every 5-35 minutes.

By the way, did you read the bottom of the readme.txt?

"Intermittent Crashes

The game may freeze or crash to a blank screen if you play in one level for extended periods of time. This was typically seen when playing the game between thirty and forty minutes without transitioning to a new level or movie. We recommend that you save the game often to avoid losing progress if you encounter this issue."

Is this supposed to be a game ready for retail?

Re:Taking a butcher knife to the ending of an RPG (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11724302)

Memory Leak. KotOR II reboots the Xbox between areas and when longer movies are played which wipes out leaked memory. If you don't change levels every once in a while, the Xbox 64Megs memory limit is reached and dies in flames.

Re:Taking a butcher knife to the ending of an RPG (1)

Astatine (179864) | more than 8 years ago | (#11735296)

Yes, it is, according to LucasArts.

The general consensus on the Obsidian forums is that Obsidian was forced into rushing it out in time for Christmas, no matter what; they can't comment, but it's likely not their fault.

Re:Taking a butcher knife to the ending of an RPG (1)

mo^ (150717) | more than 8 years ago | (#11736372)

i dont think i've had a single crash in over 20 hours of playing. have even left the game on pause whilst gone drinking, returned 5 hours later and picked up where i left with no hint of slowdonw. not to mention easy back-to-desktop - also glitch free.

my system is only a 2.4 Athlon with 64mb ti4200.

guess i know how to maintain a system that works.. kinda surprised that more people dont

I had high hopes.... (1)

FirstNoel (113932) | more than 9 years ago | (#11722316)

I have made it to the surface of Telo, that's as far as I've gotten. (sorry there's sork, wife and house duties to attend to, right now I should be doing laundry).

All I can say is that it has been rushed. When I first opened the box I could tell. Look at the manual, compare it to KOTOR1. Sure KOTOR 2's manual is in color, but the level of detail is terrible. I like reading the manuals to get all the details about the weapons and armor etc etc. The fact that it wasn't in there told me the skimped in the game.

Maybe I'm anal about my critiques, but so far whenever I have judged a game by the manual I haven't been wrong.

It took me about 5 hours to install this game, I have a athlon XP 3000+ with 512MB of ram, 9200se ATI Radeon, blah blah blah. The installer wouldn't copy the swkotor2.exe or the language file over to my PC. I did that manually. I think it kept puking on the installation of the DX9.0c , I already had it installed thanks to Pirates!.

The fit and finish of the game is lacking, to many quirky bugs, plus I feel like most of the time there's only one way of doing something, even if you try to be evil.

It took Valve 3 years to do Half-life 2. (I'm guessing at the 3 years, I can't play FPS, motion-sickness). They rushed this, KOTOR 2 should have had atleast a 2 year Dev cycle. They stuffed it into 1.

Who do you blame? I'd put my money on Lucas Arts, they rushed Obsidian so that they could get the Xbox version out before Christmas.

I just hope there's a patch on the way. No one from LA or Obsidian has confirmed that there is yet, to my understanding.

Sean D.

Re:I had high hopes.... (1)

Richard_at_work (517087) | more than 9 years ago | (#11725433)

It took Valve 3 years to do Half-life 2. (I'm guessing at the 3 years, I can't play FPS, motion-sickness). They rushed this, KOTOR 2 should have had atleast a 2 year Dev cycle. They stuffed it into 1.

For what its worth, HalfLife2 has a totally meaningless, wtf type ending, with a definate feeling that someone got bored writing the storyline at that point or something. It just ... ended. Crap.

Vampire? (1)

Mukaikubo (724906) | more than 9 years ago | (#11728791)

Sounds a fair amount like what happened with Vampire: Bloodlines. Incredibly engrossing story if you can get past the legions of near-gamestopping bugs and code that is so far from optimized it makes my bleeding edge computer scream for mercy at a simple thing like rain... but once it hit the endgame, the story went out the window and became a killing grind.

Do-Over! (1)

Databass (254179) | more than 8 years ago | (#11738990)


I wonder what the odds are that they could ever put this game back into development, finish it like they were supposed to, and re-release it? Call it KOTOR 2B. People who already bought 2 get 2B for free.

Sadly, approaching zero odds they'd ever do that, but I wish they could just admit it was a mistake to release it like this, go back, and actually allocate resouces to finish it right. Release it as a patch if possible. As long as they got to the end result of KOTOR2 being awesome, I'd forgive them.

Opposing view (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11750012)

The trade rags gushed how good it was. Amazon water-cooler reviews said it was horrible, the plot sucked, but that I should buy it anyway.

My wife and I rented it Friday and we played it all weekend. It was worth every penny. We might even keep it late, but I won't buy it. That's not the way with RPGs. Rent it, play it for a week, then return it and forget about it for 6 months. Rent it again, play it as evil this time, return it and forget about it for 6 months. See the PC version in the bargain bin for 10$, get it, patch and hex edit it, get ridiculous, then trade it in or ebay it.

When you buy a RPG you buy *1* story. (No, non-linear doesn't work, you get sick of the common elements the second time through.) When you buy a head-to-head FPS you buy as many stories as you like. Who do you think wrote the script for KOTOR II, Shakespeare? How much would you pay for the dreck in one of the new Star Wars paperbacks? Spend no more than that on KOTOR II and you will be happy.

New games show up on the Internet every day. Most can be played for free. Think about it.
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