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Pentium 4 6XX Sequence and New EE P4s Launched

timothy posted more than 8 years ago | from the james-bond-stole-this-stuff-in-1963 dept.

Intel 198

Mojo-Dog writes "Today Intel took the wraps off their new Pentium 4 Processors with EM64T extensions for 64-bit computing. The Pentium 4 6XX Sequence and Pentium 4 3.73GHz are based on Prescott 2M cores with a full 2MB of on-chip L2 cache as well. HotHardware.com has a full review with benchmarks posted of these new P4s, many of which also offer Intel's SpeedStep technology for power savings and improved thermals, which has been available in Pentium Mobile CPUs for some time now."

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198 comments

'lagging a bit' (5, Funny)

Eatmorecake (858982) | more than 8 years ago | (#11727825)

"It's no secret that Intel has occassionally been playing a bit of catchup this year in the desktop and workstation processor arena"

No kidding. Nintendo had a 64 bit processor back in like, '96.

Re:'lagging a bit' (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11727843)

YOU ARE DENSE

Re:'lagging a bit' (2, Insightful)

lord_rob the only on (859100) | more than 8 years ago | (#11727861)

> No kidding. Nintendo had a 64 bit processor back in like, '96. Do you mean the Nintendo 64 ? So the PS2 had a 128 bits processor. NO all those consoles had only a 32 bits processor, but a 128 bits bus, because in consoles, there are many processors dedicated to a special task. So the bus could transport datas to the various processors ...

Re:'lagging a bit' (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11728008)

You are so dumb. Please do us a favor by hanging yourself from the nearest rafter.

Yes, the N64 was a 64-bit processor. Does that make your penis feel small now?

Re: here in India... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11727883)

I am Habib from India. This is old news since Intel jobs tens of thousand Indians. So we had advance unit. I just build new system with P4 so I can online kiss woman. :~)

Re:'lagging a bit' (1)

bestadvocate (816742) | more than 8 years ago | (#11727925)

Some feel that the N64 actually wasn't really 64 bits though http://www.emulator-zone.com/doc.php/n64/ [emulator-zone.com] for instance and they were not even the first to make the claim as Atari had claimed that for the Jaguar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Jaguar [wikipedia.org]

Re:'lagging a bit' (3, Informative)

jizmonkey (594430) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728067)

You don't know what you are talking about. The Jaguar used funny math to get the "64-bit" number. Everybody knows that a 64-bit blitter does not a 64-bit system make, and so the only people to bring it up (like you) do so to build strawmen. The CPU of the Jaguar was a Motorola 68000.

The page you link to, by making this analogy, shows that its author doesn't know jack about shit, either.

The Nintendo 64 had an R4300i CPU. It was fully 64-bit. It addressed 64 bits (40 physical), the same as high-end SGI workstations. It had 64-bit integer registers and 64-bit floating point registers. The system had a 500MB/sec bus to the Rambus memory. There is only one "32-bit" part about the R4300i, and that was the system interface. But the memory connected to the RCP, not the CPU (and the RCP, obviously, had heavy bandwidth requirements of its own to do the graphics rendering and sound), and so it would have been wasteful to run the same wide bus between the CPU and RCP.

The RCP was another 64-bit processor, also a customized MIPS chip.

It is true that the R4300i had a 32-bit compatibility mode which was often used in games, but that is irrelevant. Most people run 32-bit software on their Athlon 64, too.

Re:'lagging a bit' (1)

CelticLo (575344) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728170)

Ian Mapleson of the SGI Depot has a subsite on this... http://www.future tech.blinken lights.nl/n64.html Although a lot of her external links are now dead, he does keep the info upto date.

Re:'lagging a bit' (1)

The Tyrant (472050) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728372)

The bitness of the Jaguar has been contended for a long time, and as with many of the attacks directed against it, the words get repeated endlessly almost by rote, without thought or research. I will thusly correct your mistakes.

The Jaguar consists of 5 main units: 3 processors, a blitter, and the object processor (an advanced sprite engine in effect). They all share a common 64 bit wide data bus. The "CPU" is a 68k yes, which has 32 bit instructions and registers and a 16 bit bus, but it is the CPU in name only, as its so slow most games use the risc chips exclusively. They are the GPU and DSP, each of which is primarily a 32 bit chip with 32 bit registers and instructions, but can perform 64 bit load/store operations.

The blitter and object processor are both entirely 64 bit engines, but they are not turing complete processors.

Because the main bus is 64 bit wide, and because some of the processing units are 64 bits wide, it is generally considered that the system as a whole is 64 bit, in so much as the bit-ness of systems matters. It was mostly a marketing thing back "in the day" as to how many bits a system has, much in the way that the number of polygons a system can push around now is touted as a comparison between systems that really means very little.

If you really want to bash the Jaguar, for whatever personal reasons you may have, please, do so about some of its real failings, like the way the two risc processors are limited to running from their internal cache because they will crash on a jump or branch instruction into or out of main memory, or some of the bizare behaviours of the A1 clipping flag of the blitter, and stop dragging up the old flawed arguments.

We're going widely off topic here but as a jaguar homebrew coder I feel the need to set the facts right.

Stallman Feeds Self Whole Chicken (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11727826)

Richard Stallman stunned a conference on Open Source Software and the FSF movement when he took the stage with what appeared to be a whole rotisserie chicken. As shocked attendees watched, he then proceeded to eat the entire chicken with his bare hands pausing only to wipe the grease on his shirt while mumbling "microsoft wants you to use a fork and napkin". Upon completion of his one-man chicken eating demonstration he demonstrated the features of EMACS to an audience that could only be described as disguested.

1st !! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11727829)

YAYYAYAYAY I DID IT!!!!!!!!!!!
i idd it
iidiiti it
iudihiahs
fuck you
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At least (4, Interesting)

reassor (817660) | more than 8 years ago | (#11727832)

"older" P4 will have a price drop,which will be good for People saving 50$ on a new System.

Re:At least (1)

Breakfast Pants (323698) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728049)

Let me ask... does this pentium support DMA in 64 bit mode.. I've heard the xenon's don't.

Re:At least (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11728239)

I've heard the xenon's don't.

I've heard that xenon's are best for illuminating scenes to be focused onto film or a CCD via a lens, illuminating a screen through developed film (thus projecting an image) or even illuminating the road ahead of your vehicle.

The gas becomes much more conductive if excited by very high voltages (around 6kV) and will emit a very high amount of light if a large current is allowed to pass through it while it is in this highly excited and conductive state. It will even emit some x-ray radiation under these circumstances.

It is an inert gas.

What does DMA stand for, with respect to xenon?

; )

Re:At least (1)

Breakfast Pants (323698) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728322)

Ah, with respect to xenon.. Well to ask that question you must first ask this one: what does xenon have to do with Intel releasing 64 bit p4's? Well you see intel has a chipline, Xeon, that is one letter away from xenon the element. Using a bit of deductive reasoning you might infer that a mistake was made and the post actually referenced Xeon. So, with respect to xenon with respect to intel launching a 64 bit p4, DMA stands for Doctor of Musical Arts, but there is a decent argument to be made that it might actually be a reference to Direct Memory Access. Anyway, check here [engadget.com] and look at comment #3.

Um (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11727837)

And how much did intel pay for this story on slashdot . It reads like a marketing blurb

Re:Um (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11727849)

And how much did intel pay for this story on slashdot . It reads like a marketing blurb

I think you misunderstand the way stories work on Slashdot. The first one is free. Intel has to pay for the duplicate story six hours from now.

Re:Um (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11727942)

I think you misunderstand the way stories work on Slashdot. The first one is free. Intel has to pay for the duplicate story six hours from now.

You forgot the bit about Roland collecting the revenue.

2MB Cache? (1)

daskalou (815182) | more than 8 years ago | (#11727845)

Today's technology never ceases to amaze me...

Re:2MB Cache? (5, Informative)

Grounded0 (703575) | more than 8 years ago | (#11727988)

MIPS R12000 system that's sitting on my desk has 8MB of L2 cache. And yes, it's circa 2000.

Re:2MB Cache? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11728086)

It's how much you can fit in the cache that matters, not the sheer size of it. Your 64 bit CPU will need larger cache to have same amount of information. (Assuming associativity and other specs are the same).

Re:2MB Cache? (1)

CelticLo (575344) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728176)

well my R10000 with its 2mb L2 cache I reckon is sitting in the same circa 2000 machine as his R12000 with its 8MB of L2 cache. I for one welcome our 8Mb L2 cache overlords.

Re:2MB Cache? (3, Interesting)

photon317 (208409) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728220)


RISC processors always have more cache than CISC processors, it's part of the design tradeoff. RISC takes less silicon to implement the core than CISC, which leaves more room to dedicate to the cache. Also the same complex operation requires more instructions on a RISC than a CISC, thus you need more L2 to keep the same amount of functional code in cache.

Re:2MB Cache? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11728401)

One of the biggest factors is that RISCs usually have fixed-length opcodes, where as CISCs tend to have variable-length opcodes. That means groups of simple instructions on CISCs take up much less memory/cache than on RISCs (which, in such cases, waste most of the opcode space). On the other hand, fixed-length opcodes make decoding much easier, so it's all down to memory/cache speed/size.

Windows XP 64-bit (5, Funny)

AnimeEd (670271) | more than 8 years ago | (#11727848)

and just in time for Windows XP 64-bit!
how lucky!

Re:Windows XP 64-bit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11727952)

Actually, 64 bit windows won't be ready but Microsoft will release it anyway.

Re:Windows XP 64-bit (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11728381)

I've used the beta/RC versions of 64-bit Windows XP on my Athlon 64, and the OS itself seemed 'ready' ages ago (at least as 'ready' as the released 64-bit Linux/BSD OSes I've tried). The only problem is the lack of 64-bit drivers for some of my hardware (Linux and BSD are even worse there, of course). Hopefully that will be rectified before XP 64-bit officially ships. I'd still like a good Linux/BSD OS too, but it looks like it will be a long, long time before the driver support gets there.

Re:Windows XP 64-bit (4, Funny)

CastrTroy (595695) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728278)

But that version will cost you twice as much. Since 64 bits is like 2 32 bit processors, you'll have to get a 2 processor license.

Non-dupe certification (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11727850)

I certify that I, anonymous coward, have reviewed this article in comparison to other recent articles and have found it to NOT be a dupe.

This certification provided 'as is', all guarantees and warrantees are disclaimed.

This has been a public service posting.

Re:Non-dupe certification (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11727870)

Wait a few hours.

Oy! (3, Funny)

ggvaidya (747058) | more than 8 years ago | (#11727941)

Get out and get a LIFE, man! Slashdot isn't so important! Sheesh, with the number of posting I see by you, it's obvious you haven't left your computer in years.

Re:Oy! (2, Insightful)

nuclear305 (674185) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728391)

"Get out and get a LIFE, man! Slashdot isn't so important! Sheesh, with the number of posting I see by you, it's obvious you haven't left your computer in years."

I'm sure you see the irony here [slashdot.org]...

Erm Wait . . . (5, Funny)

OverlordQ (264228) | more than 8 years ago | (#11727857)

Shouldn't they of released their space heaters at the *beginning* of Winter?

Re:Erm Wait . . . (1)

mattjb0010 (724744) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728017)

Shouldn't they of released their space heaters at the *beginning* of Winter?

I come from a land down under,
Where Intel's glow, and Winter begins in June.

Re:Erm Wait . . . (1)

ciroknight (601098) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728317)

Hey, it's a joke, but at least Intel took a really good step: Including SpeedStep by default on their DESKTOP processors. This was a move I predicted would happen in 1999-2001, back when the Pentium 3's were running into thermo problems as well, and then the Pentium 4's were just getting out of the gate. Even though it can be argued AMD doesn't need to take this extra step, such a step would be great if not for power savings alone, but also a possible boost in durability of the processor.

My negative statement: Intel should have used SpeedStep2, and had an adjustable multiplier down to 8x or 10x. If they could drop the temp down to around 35dC, and around 1.5GHz, and people won't really notice a huge performance hit. I really love the way the Pentium M and Pentium 4 are working together for Intel.

Maybe I'll get one... (1, Funny)

Eatmorecake (858982) | more than 8 years ago | (#11727868)

Will it help my '1st' comment on slashdot show up '1st'???

I know I'm dense, but I'm competitive, too.

hahahaha (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11727892)

Thank you for allowing me to mod you down twice in less than 10 minutes. I usually don't care for mod points, preffering to act out with offtopic yet relevent posts like my "Stallman Feeds Self Whole Chicken" work. Still, your persistance has allowed me the enjoy my mod points for once. Now I've jost got to find somewhere for my last 2 modpoints... Time to look for Free Ipod Sigs.

An additional reference (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11727874)

The Tech Report also has an excellent writeup <URL:http://techreport.com/reviews/2005q1/pentium4 -600/index.x?pg=1>

Compatibility with AMD64 (4, Insightful)

chefren (17219) | more than 8 years ago | (#11727877)

"EM64T is nearly completely compatible with AMD64 technology"

Wow, nicely said. Is this close enough to make binaries interchangable or are they two separate platforms? Either way I am 100% sure that things are exactly as they are.

Re:Compatibility with AMD64 (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11727953)

Binaries are interchangeable. The only differences are certain platform features which have always been different between AMD and Intel.

In other word, you could say it's 100% compatible. Or 100% ripoff. :-)

Re:Compatibility with AMD64 (1, Troll)

frakir (760204) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728208)

... and few instructions separate enough to make icc (intel C compiler) produce code which won't run on AMD64...

I don't see much of an improvement. (1, Redundant)

Celestial Avenger (826964) | more than 8 years ago | (#11727879)

Especially in encoding. Is it really worth the extra several hundred to shave 6-10 seconds off of rendering a model or enconding an MP3?

Re:I don't see much of an improvement. (3, Funny)

agent dero (680753) | more than 8 years ago | (#11727912)

or enconding an MP3?

Why do you want to know?

Sincereley,
Your Friendly Neighborhood RIAA Agent

Re:I don't see much of an improvement. (1)

Tim C (15259) | more than 8 years ago | (#11727921)

That really depends on how much of it you do, doesn't it?

If you spend a significant amount of time waiting for that sort of thing to complete then it could well be worth it, especially if you're rendering more complex models.

If you're just ripping the occasional CD to mp3/ogg for your media player, then what do you think?

Re:I don't see much of an improvement. (2, Interesting)

Celestial Avenger (826964) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728028)

"If you spend a significant amount of time waiting for that sort of thing to complete then it could well be worth it, especially if you're rendering more complex models." If I did that, I'd be better off with an Intel Xeon processor or two, not this.

still (3, Insightful)

Foo2rama (755806) | more than 8 years ago | (#11727881)

Runs hot, still going to be a cooling nightmare... And we all knew intel was putting a 2mb on die cache to speed up the proc. The only mysteries are why the 64 but extensions which look to prove pretty worthless in the long run, have been added (lic from AMD). And what took Intell so long to put the speed step tech on the desktop p4's? I mean come on it is a great way to cool those p4 heat pigs, people have been screaming for it for about a year, kinda a no brainer.. gg Intel still catchup. Not being a fan boy or anything but I will still save my money and get the AMD chips, and deal with slower excel benchmarks, since that extra 4 seconds I waste every few hours will really add up.

Re:still (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11727894)

Maybe you should read a few other reviews before jumping to conclusions (perhaps some reviewers who actually tested temperature and power consumption levels?)

Re:still (1)

Foo2rama (755806) | more than 8 years ago | (#11727959)

your right.. since an idle temp of

The new Pentium 4 Extreme Edition at 3.73GHz, again with out SpeedStep capability, idles at around 56oC with stock cooling in our open-air testbed. When loaded up with our Folding client, we see similar high-end temps at 73oC.

Your right idleing at 56 is not indicative of a heat pig since most amd 64's idle at 34 and max at 48 under load.

The new Pentium 4 6XX Sequence and Pentium 4 Extreme Edition 3.37GHz CPUs offered a bit more performance in gaming scenarios but not enough to catch AMD's fastest Athlon 64 chips at what they do best. And again, when it comes to media encoding or conversion, 3D rendering and modeling, and most new standard business applications,

Does this not state that amd's are still in the lead, except for some business benchmarks

On the 32 and 63 bit gameing bechmarks the cost per fps is still in AMD's favor, as well as showing the p4's have incomplete 64 bit execution.

So yes I did read the tests thank you come again...

Re:still (1)

Dashing Leech (688077) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728316)

"Does this not state that amd's are still in the lead, except for some business benchmarks"

No, you didn't finish the quotation:

"And again, when it comes to media encoding or conversion, 3D rendering and modeling, and most new standard business applications, the Pentium 4 extends it lead today with these new additions to the Intel lineup. Especially in common multitasking workloads and usage models, with an OS that supports Hyper-Threading, the Pentium 4 obviously is at its best."

What the report says is that the AMD 64 still wins in 3D gaming where it is best, but for median encoding/conversion, 3D rendering & modeling, business apps, and multitasking, the new Pentium 4 6XX wins. This is exactly what the plots show too. So it's only gaming that the AMD 64 wins.

Of course the binary decision of win/lose shouldn't really be the metric. Winning by 1% at a 300% increase in cost and 80% more heat doesn't cut it for me. (No, these aren't the real numbers, I'm giving an example.) I'd rather see some ratios of performance to cost and/or heat produced along with the absolute performance specs. I can do this on my own, except they didn't report the cost point of the AMD FX-55 or 4000+. I guess I'll have to look them up.

Re:still (1)

Henk Poley (308046) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728136)

Ehm, though not exactly "SpeedStep(TM)" all Pentium4s can be throttled by software. My MythTV system -running a Celeron 2.4GHz- drops to 300MHz when idle. Support for this has been in the Linux kernel for some time now, though not that long. It is called "Intel Pentium 4 clock modulation".

Basicly you set an upper bound to the hardware throttling built into the Pentium 4.

Re:still (1)

bani (467531) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728183)

there's little advantage to speedstep/clock modulation though, at least on desktops. it doesn't really save you any power.

why? because if you use linux or similar OS which halt the processor in idle, you're already placing the CPU in the lowest power state it can possibly be in -- totally halted in most cases.

and when you're using the processor, you're going to want to run it 100% speed anyway -- there's no point in running it 50% speed because it will take 50% longer and thus the same (or more) power to compute the same task.

for desktops you'll generally find that running cpufreq or whatnot will simply result in a slower desktop, and virtually no power savings.

for laptops you're better off using a cpu which is power efficient to begin with, eg the pentium-m or mobile amd64.

Re:still (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11728530)

Actually, most computing activity isn't CPU bound. I've got a mobile Athlon 64, for example, and with obvious exceptions like games or media encoding, the CPU usually runs in the slowest mode, with low utilisation. On the other hand, with all the stuff I run (ssh sessions, email client, web browsers, media players) it's relatively rare for the CPU to be doing nothing at all.

Among other things, running the CPU in the slowest mode saves power because it reduces cooling pressure, so the fans and whatnot can run at lower speeds. This is on a laptop, but my desktop has ACPI-managed fans too.

Re:still (1)

Cthefuture (665326) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728240)

I can't understand why Intel doesn't do more with the Pentium-M. I mean, if they would crank up the clock and add 64-bit support, they would be very close or better than the Athlon64/Opteron line in terms of heat and performance.

The Prescott core sucks. It always has. They need to dump that thing and move on.

The most intriguing part... (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11727886)

... of this new CPU is how little power it uses compared to older Prescotts:

http://www.hardcoreware.net/reviews/review-263-11. htm [hardcoreware.net]

http://www.techreport.com/reviews/2005q1/pentium4- 600/index.x?pg=16 [techreport.com]

Load temperatures are the same levels as idle temps on the old prescotts!

Re:The most intriguing part... (1)

DrMrLordX (559371) | more than 8 years ago | (#11727935)

Erm . . . if load temps on these processors turned out to be as low as the old Northwoods, I'd be impressed. The fact that they still suffer the same temps as the old Prescotts is not impressive.

Re:The most intriguing part... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11728029)

The 6xx Prescotts have a load temp that is around the same as the IDLE temp of the 5xx Prescotts. ;)

Not sure where the Northwood fits in anymore though...

EM64T Extensions - 64-bit computing? (1)

bestadvocate (816742) | more than 8 years ago | (#11727889)

What do these things do? Emulate?

Re: EM64T Extensions - 64-bit computing? (5, Informative)

Grounded0 (703575) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728012)

Basically they're just IA-32 architecture without it's most worst design errors.

1. 8 registers increased to 16 (it still sucks compared to SPARC's 128).

2. Larger addressing width (eg. can allocate more than 4GB of memory limited by 32-bit architectures). Alpha and MIPS had this capability in 1992.

3. NX bit (can prevent buffer overflows). Has been available for ages on good CPU architectures.

Re: EM64T Extensions - 64-bit computing? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11728066)


1. 8 registers increased to 16 (it still sucks compared to SPARC's 128).

Intels have many more internal registers and use register renaming. Basically that means you don't optimize by using a bunch of registers but instead try to keep the processor pipeline full enough so the out or order loads and stores from memory, which is hopefully in cache, have zero cost. But you do that naturally when you program, don't you?

Re: EM64T Extensions - 64-bit computing? (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11728103)

Item 2 isn't a "design error", it's a trade-off at any moment in time whether you support 64-bit addressing, doing so means a lot more transistors, and if (as with Intel) most of your customers are buying mid-range desktop machines that's a bad trade in 1992, in fact it was still a bad trade as recently as 5 years ago.

Item 3 is an improvement, but you mis-described NX, it doesn't "prevent buffer overflows" at all. It's a _marginal_ defense again deliberate stack smash attacks in which executable code is written during a buffer overflow. Buffer overflows have been used by Black Hats quite happily on Alpha, MIPS etc all these years despite non-executable stacks. It remains to be seen whether the development cost for this feature pays for itself in terms of raising the bar for black hats.

Item 1 is a trade-off again, but one that Intel should have made years ago, perhaps when they designed the 386. 128 registers means a lot more silicon, yet many inner loops will never use more than a dozen or so registers, meaning you either make price/performance worse, or you sacrifice something else (maybe vector instructions) to keep costs down. Every designer makes their own decisions here, and they're validated in the market. Eight wasn't enough, Sixteen is definitely closer to the sweet spot.

AMD made good trade offs with x86-64, they were rewarded in the marketplace and Intel are jumping on the same bandwagon now with EM64T.

Re: EM64T Extensions - 64-bit computing? (1)

gloth (180149) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728241)

3. NX bit (can prevent buffer overflows).

It does not prevent buffer overflows, it just makes it harder to exploit them, because things that one might manage to write past the allocated buffer will not be readily executable.

Re: EM64T Extensions - 64-bit computing? (1)

owlstead (636356) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728277)

Yeah, it is still IA-32, so this means:
- it's compatible
- it's fast
- it supports more (important) instructions
- larger address space
- additional security feature
- it's relatively inexpensive

So in my view there is little wrong with it. Too many processors claimed to be better, but were slower and more expensive instead - and that's what counts. The compilers will compile for it without too big a fuss, so what's your point?

If it can keep up with AMD on performance, power/heat requirements and compatibility is another matter, my vote still goes to AMD, especially since I suspect foul play by Microsoft on 64 bit support. Windows 64 bit will be released as soon as enough chips are available from Intel.

Warez check (1)

trezor (555230) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728320)

  • Windows 64 bit will be released as soon as enough chips are available from Intel.

According to some *ahem* backup-sites I've seen, Windows 64 is allready out on the internet and has SP1 embedded.

/FYI

Re:Warez check (1)

fruity_pebbles (568822) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728448)

RC2 is out and available from Microsoft. It has roughly the equivalent of SP2 included (i.e. the SP2 firewall is there).

Re: EM64T Extensions - 64-bit computing? (1)

trezor (555230) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728297)

  • 8 registers increased to 16 (it still sucks compared to SPARC's 128).

Wow. I guess the IA-32 platform really does suck. Even my Amiga 500 with an old Motorola 68k CPU way back in the nineties had this.

Not being a troll or anything, but back in the days, any Motorola-based computer with a similar speed of an Intel-based machine beat the crap out of the Intel-based machine since most of the instructions was actually processing data and not loading and unloading registers. If the compiler supports the additional registers, this does way more for performance than adding a few 100 MHz every now and then. I just can't believe Intel still haven't made anything better than this.

Re: EM64T Extensions - 64-bit computing? (1)

ciroknight (601098) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728347)

The fact is, AMD and Intel have BOTH been better than this for years (I believe they started Out-of-order operations and register renaming with the original Pentium, but don't quote me on that), but to maintain compatibility, Intel really didn't want to budge on this original spec. In fact, Intel really didn't want to budge on ANY of the spec, so the ISA got really old, really fast. Of course, through multiple layers of obsfuscation, AMD and Intel have gotten around most all of the lagging bits. The last problem that really couldn't be snuck around was the memory address space, which AMD fixed with their spec, and Intel stole.

Re: EM64T Extensions - 64-bit computing? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11728343)

Basically they're just IA-32 architecture without it's most worst design errors.

IA-32 worst design errors were not those, IMO. x86 ABI is a "register-memory" type of CPU, I wish AMD would have designed a pure register-register CPU like RISC processors did a few years ago. Instead, AMD just added 8 registers more (crappy, VAX had 16 too, PPC has 32 like most of RISC processors, if AMD were adding more registers why not add upt to 32 at least) and made the registers 64-byte wide. They haven't fixed anything, the instruction set is the SAME with the same semantics except for 2 new instructions. In fact, they have condemned us to live with the x86 ABI (except for the 64 bits) for another 20 years.

I wish AMD had failed with x86-64. Intel at least did have a clue and redesigned the whole CPU with the itanium. Itanium may not be great either but at least they designed it from the ground. AMD has just patched a crappy architecture, which makes x86-64 be...a crappy architecture.

Still catching up to Athlon wrt games (5, Insightful)

aendeuryu (844048) | more than 8 years ago | (#11727904)

Quick summary for gamers:

This P4 still lags behind the Athlon FX-55 and 64 4000+ for Doom3, HL2, UT2004, and the general 3dMark benchmark. Pricewatch has the FX-55 at 900$ US and the 64 4000 at 620$, which is cheaper than the best chip of the bunch at 999$. Granted, video cards are probably the biggest system decision for gamers, but if CPUs figure into your decision, you might want to consider the comparisons.

Re:Still catching up to Athlon wrt games (1)

ciroknight (601098) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728323)

Games like Doom3, and HL2 were practically DESIGNED around the Opteron, so Intel's lagging behind because of optimization at this point.

But, gamers, if you really want to save some money, please buy the AMD. At this point, I'd wait for the next release of the 6XX line before buying one.

Nothing really about 64 bit performance (5, Insightful)

GreatDrok (684119) | more than 8 years ago | (#11727934)

I have been trying to find out what the performance of the AMD and Intel chips is really like with 64 bit apps on a 64 bit OS and have yet to find anything that covers it. This article as usual goes on about 32 bit apps on a 64 bit OS which really doesn't help. I want to know if the Intel implementation is as efficient as AMDs and this would be easy enough with Linux but none of these reviews ever consider running on Linux. Just saying that 64 bit support isn't an issue at the moment doesn't cut it, I want to know now!

Re:Nothing really about 64 bit performance (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11728004)

When going from 16 to 32 bits, the performance more than doubled because virtually nothing was done in 16 bits even then. However, pretty much nothing requires more than 32 bits now, besides programs with large datasets. Since most things now do not require more than 32 bits (and likely never will), moving to 64 bits just means more cache misses and page faults, both of which reduce performance.

In other words, do not expect performance to improve for any 64-bit app aside from those that require multiple GB of memory.

dom

Re:Nothing really about 64 bit performance (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11728035)

Gentoo has some nice benchmarks on this. You can find it in the AMD 64 FAQ found here [gentoo.org] . Where also they link to another forum post containing some very interesting performance differences, found here [gentoo.org].

Emulated 64 bit processing (-1, Troll)

payr0k (861155) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728019)

come on. If you look into it, these are 64bit extensions not a 64bit processor core. They're trying to doop the masses. They're emulating 64bit. It's a waste of money.

Re:Emulated 64 bit processing (1)

Sarojin (446404) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728034)

Actually, the Prescott core is 64 bit, even in the Prescott chips that don't support the X86-64 ISA.

Re:Emulated 64 bit processing (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11728048)

The inner workings of most CPUs bare little or no resemblence to their functionality. Look up 'microcode'.

Intel fanboys? Biased Journalism? (5, Informative)

inflex (123318) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728041)

Normally I don't pay much attention to these reviews, but damn this review smacked of Intel fanboyism and anti-AMD'ism. In summary, the comments fell into two catagories:

1. If Intel beat the AMD in a test
"Once again it's game over for AMD"

2. If AMD beats Intel in a test
"AMD struggles to keep ahead of Intel in this test"

I thought at first it was just a one off comment - but the almost all of the evaluations were like that.

Obviously we each tend to have a preference for one brand over another but please can we have consistent commenting.

Paul.

Signifcantly (1)

birder (61402) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728253)

He also used the word 'signifcantly' a signifcant amount. I guess that was part of keeping things consistent.

Intel the leader in 64 bit extensions? (3, Insightful)

diegocgteleline.es (653730) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728062)

Sure, AMD invented those extensions, but Intel has 80% of the desktop processor market (amd only stole them a 2% in the last 6 months). This should mean that soon most of the desktop processors with 64 bit extensions will the ones from intel, not the ones from amd.

Clarification ? (1)

ultranova (717540) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728095)

From the article:

"Certain viruses that compromise a system can create buffer overflows by swamping a system processor with code."

Does this refer to a standard buffer overflow attack of giving longer input that the program expected, or does it describe another type of attack ? I really can't tell :(...

Re:Clarification ? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11728290)

It's okay because viruses are usually written for intel procs and so they dont run on amd procs

I've been waiting for this for some time now... (1)

karlandtanya (601084) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728236)

Been planning a new system for a while. Got a dual PIII from 1998 right now, and waiting for the prices to drop.
Just needed the next "trendy new marketing development that really adds nothing" from Intel or AMD to push down the price of the chips I really want.

Re:I've been waiting for this for some time now... (1)

Graemee (524726) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728255)

...and waiting for the prices to drop.

Sh*t or get off the pot.
If you've really been waiting for the prices to drop, you'll be the one obsolete by the time you get a new model. Buy what you can afford now and worry about the next great model later when you think it's time to get a new one.

Re:I've been waiting for this for some time now... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11728294)

This is why you probably have a house/apartment full of useless toys and he probably has a descent savings account.

Guess what kiddie, its the same computer weather you buy it for $3,999 now or $1,500 in a year.

How to pronounce "EM64T" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11728250)

"AMD"

64-bit GPUs (2, Interesting)

G3ckoG33k (647276) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728254)

If I'm not totally incorrect we may see 64-bit GPUs in the next few years (2007?). IIRC, there was some remark from some ATI/nVidia guy somehere. Perhaps it was relating to the upcoming Unreal 3 technology, I really don't remember. Or, was it 128-bit colours? Hrrrmmm...

Re:64-bit GPUs (2, Insightful)

fgb (62123) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728333)

IAPWATB (I am probably wrong about this but...) I thought most GPUs were 64-bit and even 128-bit processors.

toms hardware (1)

bird603568 (808629) | more than 8 years ago | (#11728373)

i cant believe i cant find it there. unless there hiding it, they normally ahve all the new hardware news.

Intel President Paul Otellini said... (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 8 years ago | (#11728474)

Intel President Paul Otellini said on Jan 10th in his blog-
"While I hate losing share, the reality is that our competitor has a very strong product offering"

Further details on the story can be found here [siliconvalley.com]

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<ecode>    while(1) { do_something(); } </ecode>
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