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Can India Become A Knowledge Superpower?

CmdrTaco posted more than 9 years ago | from the something-to-think-about dept.

Technology 568

krsmathews writes " New Scientist, in its latest issue, has a special report on India. It provocatively calls India the next knowledge superpower, though in a introductory story the caveats are laid out. It's a reasonably comprehensive look at India's high-tech research, pharma, bio-tech, space, and nuclear industries. The U.S. R&D expenditure is bigger than the next five countries put together, and India is nowhere in the picture. "

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first post (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729080)

first post all the way

Re:first post (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729333)

India sucks.

Bunch of ugly dickheads.

Can It? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729082)

No.

India R&D (4, Funny)

Fred_A (10934) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729085)

Hah ! I'm sure Indian researchers had personal history deletion patented *years* ago.

Re:India R&D (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729202)

Oh, they did. Thats why amazon was able to innovate personal history deletion that lied to you!

Not Funny: Sweden vs. India (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729264)

Being a knowledge powerhouse is not correlated with a high standard of living. Sweden is low tech, and India as a whole probably has more scientific achievements than Sweden. Yet, Sweden is a much better society than India. I prefer to live in Sweden.

What is wrong with India? The big problem is a culture that breeds a supremacist attitude. Consequently, the government of India wastes billions of dollars on programs that show how "impressive" Indian culture is but that fails to help the average person. Consider the billions of dollars invested in the nuclear program, the space program, etc.

India is a failure because its people made the wrong choices. I consider Sweden a huge success even though it is low tech.

Just look at Japan and compare India to Japan at the same point in development. The Japanese never wasted huge sums of money on a nuclear weapons program and a space program.

Things are happening in that region ... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729089)

India and china are making progress while america and europe is harming itself with kyoto and antitrust

Re:Things are happening in that region ... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729105)

America didn't sign Kyoto, therefore America will not experience any of the detrimental economic impacts it would have otherwise experienced.

Re:Things are happening in that region ... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729164)

Yeah, what a bargain: a decade or two of magnificent economic growth accompanied by more and more extreme weather. I hope you and your kids will enjoy category 6 storms, tsunamis, arctic Europe and severe flooding of all coastland.

Re:Things are happening in that region ... (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729186)

Hint: Just becuase you saw it in a movie does not make it true.

Re:Things are happening in that region ... (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729234)

What do you mean? Did I refer to a movie anywhere?

I am talking about scientific facts. Atlantic conveyor belt effect is what keeps Europe warm. It's driven by a saline gradient that WILL change when the polar ice melts. Hence, the conveyor belt effect would change and Europe would get as cold as Siberia. It's science, but you seem to be hell-bent on burying your head in the sand and go for the short-term economic gains - it will be our children who'll have to pay the price for our greed.

Hell, even in the extremely unlikely case that we'd later find out that the global warming was not caused by human activities, acting now is just common sense: emissions are bad in other ways too (health issues) and reducing them results only in economic loss. In fact, I don't understand how anyone would put economic gains first over loss of human life and environment.

Re:Things are happening in that region ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729244)

What you say is NOT supported by scientific facts and reflects the inane hysteria supported by movies put out by Hollywood. Whether global warming exists or not, Kyoto is not going to do a damned thing about it - read it and weep [junkscience.com]

Re:Things are happening in that region ... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729276)

What you say is NOT supported by scientific facts a

And you're a scientist? It's a well known fact that every "scientist" who says that global warming is not caused by human action has ties to oil and gas corporations. On the other hand, the evidence [bbc.co.uk] supporting human induced climate change is mounting.

But you're absolutely right about Kyoto. It alone is not going to save us from global warming. We need much more drastic action and NOW, but Kyoto is a good start. Shame on America for putting economic growth first.

Re:Things are happening in that region ... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729289)

Are you a scientist? Don't quote crap to me when you aren't going to follow your own logic.

If we stopped all pollution now, just what do you think would happen? How do you think the world's population would survive? Hint: people will starve and die.

Kudos to America for putting its livelihood ahead of junk science and bogus environmentalism

China .vs India, China Wins... (1)

Saeed al-Sahaf (665390) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729267)

I think China will eclipse India. While both will be taking top spots as the Western world continues to focus on financial dominance rather than technology research. But China will pull ahead simply because of numbers of brains and the fact that China is doing basic research while India is taking advantage of existing technologies, with very little basic research.

Re:China .vs India, China Wins... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729320)

Number of brains? Get one yourself! China and India are similarly populated.

off-shoring (4, Interesting)

kloidster (817307) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729095)

What I've been saying all along. We are telling brain-power to stay over there in India, rather than come over here to the United States. I wonder what it would be like if people like Vinod Khosla were told to work over there and don't come here to innovate.

Re:off-shoring (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729130)

Who?

Re:off-shoring (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729196)

You know, the guy who invented shredded cabbage with mayonnaise, Khosla.

Re:off-shoring (1)

trusteR (860575) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729275)

Never heard of him :?

Re:off-shoring (0, Offtopic)

goodzilla (814324) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729328)

We are going to colonize all of you all
hahahahah :)

A country so smart.. (-1, Troll)

floridagators1 (726469) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729096)

Yet they think cows are sacred. Logic:1 India: 0

And the U.S. is so smart (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729117)

that the population believes that a supernatural being being created man by pointing a finger and created woman from a rib of that man.

Much better.

Red States (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729183)

Note that you're talking about the Jesusland (aka. Red States) - some of us (a minority, I admit) stopped believing in fairytales a long time ago.

Re:Red States (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729201)

Tell that to the large communities of African Americans who believe in God and vote Democrat in their blue state homes.

Tell that to John Kerry, Bill Clinton, and Joe Liberman.

Hint: the party of the blue states are as much religious zealots as the party of the red states.

Re:And the U.S. is so smart (3, Funny)

djplurvert (737910) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729205)

That's only in indiana where they tried to get a law passed for a more sensible definition of pi [faqs.org] . Every other american is WELL aware that man was made by aliens [strayreality.com] .

Re:A country so smart.. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729118)

ever had a nice juicy steak? isn't that sacred?

What about China? (5, Interesting)

mOoZik (698544) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729097)

It has everything going for it. Growing economy, a collection of research labs of U.S. and domestic companies, and a desire to pace with and outdo anything the West can throw at it. I'd put my money on China before I put it on India.

Re:What about China? (4, Interesting)

aacool (700143) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729141)

Democracy and free markets seem to be better, in the long run, at fostering growth than totalitarian regimes, IMHO

Re:What about China? (1)

buxton4 (849144) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729193)

Hitler didn't think so, and his country seemed to grow quite well...

Re:What about China? (4, Insightful)

mOoZik (698544) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729195)

You are forgetting that China doesn't fit in the traditional Communist model, at least not economically. How many Communist governments have had economies growing at the pace that China is experiencing at this time? Maybe the Soviet Union in the first couple of decades, but clearly China is an exception, in that it mixes a Communist government with a quasi-capitalist economic system. And trends seem to indicate that China will increasingly become more democratic and capitalistic.

Re:What about China? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729211)

Hong Kong, Tibet, and Taiwan are all waiting for their share of a more democratic China indeed.

Re:What about China? (4, Insightful)

antifoidulus (807088) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729318)

You are ignoring the fact that yeah, things are going great now, but what is going to happen when things start to go south? They cannot grow forever, and nobody knows how the system will work when things aren't so rosy. Also, if you look at Chinese history, you will see a dizzying cycle of amazing highs where China really is the "Middle Kingdom" and dominates the region, and then almost instantaneously crashes and looks only inward.
Time will tell if this government is any different.

Re:What about China? (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729170)

China is already a super power... They are just fooling you Americans to believe they are not a super power :P

Ha! you got to be kidding. (0, Flamebait)

twoslice (457793) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729241)

In China R&D stands for Rip-off & Deploy...

Nothing to see here, move along

Both India and China has quite a long way to go... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729249)

They

... don't innovate (copy is the norm in China).
... got social problems (a lot of poor people)
... got cultural problems (both countries have problems with terrorism). The U.S. has these problem too, but the U.S. tries to deal with it instead of trying to put the lid on the kettle.
... are not as materialistic as the Americans, so their domestic market is not as dynamic.

Sure, China and India are marching on to prosperity, but people tend to overstate things.

Re:What about China? (4, Interesting)

kaalamaadan (639250) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729255)

In the absence of any corrective measures, I am sure even India can be like China. It has been acquiring a steady 6-7% growth rate for the past 5 years. That may not sound impressive next to China, but it is impressive when you consider that it is the *consensus* growth rate - not the huge urban-rural divide that China touts as progress.

As a case in point, In Andhra Pradesh [wikipedia.org] , the previous Chief Minister, Chandrababu Naidu [wikipedia.org] transformed Hyderabad from nowhere to one of the centres of the tech glitz in India. Meanwhile, in the villages, Andhra farmers were in miserable condition - 3000 farmers [bbc.co.uk] committed suicide in the past four years. The farmers never forgave; Come election time, they did not forget to cast their vote. Out went Chandrababu. It was beautiful to see democracy triumph over J.P. Morgan. The same thing happened in the neigbouring Bangalore.

There cannot be glitzy progress ignoring 75% of the people.

Of course, this means that in the eyes of the financial analysts, India is not as lucrative as China. But, I am proud of the progress that my country is making. At least, we don't have to sweep unpleasant facts under the carpet.

Re:What about China? (4, Interesting)

sfjoe (470510) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729266)

I'd put my money on China before I put it on India.

That remains to be seen. China's healthcare system is collapsing and, along with massive pollution, threatening to put a damper on much of the expected growth (this is Morgan-Stanley speaking, not me). China's problems reallly have no precedent so it's too soon to say whether they will be able to become anything more than a massive consumer.

Re:What about China? (1)

Taladar (717494) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729330)

Sure you are not talking about the U.S. concerning the health care system and pollution problems?

Re:What about China? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729303)

Do you have any idea what's really going on in China right now, or are you just spewing what you hear?

China not really 1 big block of anything. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729312)

I think India would be less splitered culturally than China. While to most westerners China is just one nation it's really a huge mish-mash of cultures and languages - it's no gross exaggeration to say that in many instances somone living there can't understand the local language of someone who's only like an hours drive away.
Imagine someone from Detroit being totally unintelligible to someone from Chicago? (Ok, bad example).

Some questions... (5, Insightful)

aendeuryu (844048) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729099)

The US R&D expenditure is bigger than the next five countries put together, and India is nowhere in the picture.

Granted, that's impressive spending, but how much of this has to do with a higher overall cost of living in the US, and therefore, higher salaries for your workers? Also, how much of that spending is directly related to the military?

Just wondering how much overall dollar output directly relates to one's place on the R&D totem pole.

Re:Some questions... (1)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729126)

Military spending often comes down to Earth in commercial ventures, so I don't really have a problem with that (BMDO spinoffs, etc.) But here's the kicker: prior to outsourcing and the "global economy", R&D investment generally went to benefit U.S. businesses and consumers. I don't really see that happening anymore. Sure ... money gets spent on research but foreign interests seem to be reaping the rewards.

Good question (1)

SparklesMalone (623241) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729226)

And not just how the military factors, but also how the number is derived. Are US dollars expended on an outsourced project still counted as US dollars? I gotta believe that Indian corporations are only a tiny fraction of the revenue into those outsourced jobs. I RTFA but (typically) it didn't describe its sources, nor did I see that reference about the US R&D budget being bigger than the next 5.

Re:Some questions... (1)

Dagowolf (646208) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729242)

Granted, that's impressive spending, but how much of this has to do with a higher overall cost of living in the US, and therefore, higher salaries for your workers? Also, how much of that spending is directly related to the military?

Add to that how much of the money is spend researching how to abide by asinine rules and regulations put in place due to the scientific communities inabiity to effectively communicate with the US public. Not to mention scientists are often constrained by those very rules. Stem cell research for instance.

maybe we should be buying Indian stocks (-1, Troll)

Cryofan (194126) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729107)

I heard their stock exchange crashed some time ago. I wonder if it is back up....

Re:maybe we should be buying Indian stocks (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729147)

Yes, we know how much science and technology innovations socialist countries in the EU are making.

LOL.

I think not ... (1, Interesting)

puiahappy (855662) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729108)

Maybe is just another mistake, like many that we have seen in the world`s history, as industry India could make progreses but as a superpower ... i don`t think so.

R&D expenditures (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729119)

The only reason "India is nowhere in the picture" is because the USA R&D is going towards the likes of making teeth whiter, and the 4 hour erection insted of "high-tech research, pharma, bio-tech, space, and nuclear" research.

Re:R&D expenditures (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729181)

The only reason "India is nowhere in the picture" is because the USA R&D is going towards...

Don't worry, your investments in American R&D are going straight to hiring Indians to staff the new R&D labs being built in India.

Maybe...not. (5, Funny)

coKestar (859984) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729120)

No nation where cows do not fear Ronald McDonald cannot be trusted!

Re:Maybe...not. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729157)

No nation where cows do not fear Ronald McDonald cannot be trusted!

Too...many...negatives...my...head...asplodes.

Re:Maybe...not. (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729161)

No nation that re-elects Bush can be trusted.

Re:Maybe...not. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729229)

You and your lying liberal commie Kerry lost the election. Get over it.

Re:Maybe...not. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729257)

Bush lied...and many soldiers have died.

And Kerry actually went to Vietnam, whereas Shrub apparently thought the Viet Cong might try to invade Texas.

Re:Maybe...not. (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729271)

Interesting that the same libs who protested Vietnam are now praising Kerry for actually participating in it and demeaning Bush for not!

Hypocrisy abound!

The diaspora already is (4, Interesting)

lazzaro (29860) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729121)

The Indian diaspora, like the China diaspora, is already a knowledge superpower -- as a look at the nationalities of the IEEE Fellows, the US NAS and NAE, and the equivalent academies in other countries will attest. All we're discussing here is the current mailing address of the talent.

Re:The diaspora already is (4, Insightful)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729251)

Talent knows no geographical boundaries. The key is that it is a diaspora, not an Indian or Chinese institution. For example, despite the vast talent pool in the Chinese population, no Chinese citizen has ever won a Nobel Prize, Those prizes have gone to members of the diaspora working in western institutions.

Until India and China build institutions comparable to the best in the west they will never become true knowledge superpowers.

Krishna, Another India Thread (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729123)

I wish the incredibly insecure Indians would just lay off. Let's see them do something instead of hyping their moonbase or whatever pretentious garbage they talk about to deny their poverty.

Nope (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729134)

They're not white enough.

Innovation as well as knowledge?? (4, Insightful)

sfjoe (470510) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729150)

The one area where the USA has excelled over the decades is in cooking up innovative ideas and turning them into profitable businesses. The basic model of education in the USA has been based in large part on creative thinking. As tax-cut mania takes over and US schools do less and less educating, we can expect to see other countries start catching up in the area of innovation. However, since most places, India included, prize rote memorization as the best way to educate, I can't see them ever turning out large numbers of innovators the way the US has.

Re:Innovation as well as knowledge?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729166)

I don't see what tax cuts have to do with anything. The reason why countries like India are succeeding at such fast paces if becuase the majority of their people are economically depressed and they have a bigger reason to value knowledge and ability to do highly technical things, so it becomes a bigger economic advantage for them to become scientists, mathmeticians, and programmers than it does for the average American to do these things.

Re:Innovation as well as knowledge?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729279)

I don't see what tax cuts have to do with anything.

Huh? Who do you think funds schools? The tooth fairy ?

Re:Innovation as well as knowledge?? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729311)

We pour billions and billions more into education every year. Tax cuts aren't affecting the schools (and schools in the US are largely funded at the local and state levels, not at the federal level).

If you haven't noticed, the billions we pour into our schools aren't really helping. The test scores are continuing to drop. The issue here is a cultural one, not an institutional one. The kids who really want to learn have the oppritunities to do so (though they end up learning far more on their own than they do through a public school system)

Innovation as well as knowledge??-A Risky Affair. (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729191)

"The one area where the USA has excelled over the decades is in cooking up innovative ideas and turning them into profitable businesses."

That's because we have the legal base to allow people to take the risks involved in being innovative. Hate IP all you guys want. Results speak for themselves, and countries that don't have the base (lacking or no enforcement) are less prosperous.

Indians and higher education (1)

Andy Dodd (701) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729230)

The biggest flaw with your argument is that many Indians come to the United States for higher education.

ESPECIALLY in graduate programs. I would say that around half the students in Rutgers' graduate electrical engineering program are Indian (and I don't mean of Indian descent.) Over 80% of the students in the program are Asian (Indian, Chinese, or Korean), and nearly all of them are foreign and not just of Asian descent.

It says a lot of sad things about American attitudes towards education that almost all of the graduate engineering students at a state-funded school are not only from out of state, but from out of the country.

Re:Indians and higher education (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729260)

Why is it sad? It shows that Americans can live a prosperous life without spending years and much toil in a graduate program. Asians come here becuase it is a way for them to come out of poverty and live a better life.

Re:Innovation as well as knowledge?? (3, Informative)

rsidd (6328) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729252)

However, since most places, India included, prize rote memorization as the best way to educate,

Rubbish. While US school boards are still arguing about whether to teach evolution in schools, US school students are being creamed in science and math competitions worldwide. Where the US scores is in university education, especially at the graduate level. As you go up the educational ladder in the better universities in the US, the proportion of foreigners steadily increases, exceeding 50% in many departments at the postdoc and faculty level. People are still going to the US for graduate study and postdoctoral work (though even there, reportedly numbers from Asia have fallen over 25% in the last year or two). What's changed is they're not hanging on in the US after that: they're going back home.

Re:Innovation as well as knowledge?? (1)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729269)

US school students are being creamed in science and math competitions worldwide.

THe US is punished in these tests by the diversity of it's population. If you compare the top 10% of US students vs. the rest of the world, the numbers are very different than a comparison of the average students. That top 10% of US students is absolutely competitive with the top 10% from any other country in the world.

Re:Innovation as well as knowledge?? (1)

NewbieProgrammerMan (558327) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729273)

The basic model of education in the USA has been based in large part on creative thinking.
And what in the world do you base that on? Is this from your particular experience, or is there a study somewhere that shows that US schools teach creative thinking? I've never seen such an emphasis, so my anecdotal evidence cancels yours out. :)

It's a cultural thing. (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729321)

I agree with you totally.

We have a culture where anybody can innovate. Look at all the companies that started out in someone's garage. There is the idea that anyone can do anything, the idea that a kid from the worst ghetto might someday become the president. Other cultures don't have that idea. It's a precious idea. The greatness of our culture and economy are based on it.

Having said the above, innovation requires certain conditions. People need enough economic surplus to be able to devote their time to something that may not pan out. People need a good enough education to be able to innovate. If we have a society where you go to school and then have to work two jobs to pay off your student loans, you don't have the surplus (time, money) to innovate; you have become a wage slave. If you have to sell your business to pay your doctor, you can't innovate. If you can't get a decent job because you grew up in a ghetto and the cops made sure that everyone had a criminal record, you can't innovate. If the Microsofts and Walmarts crush your budding business, you can't innovate.

The bottom line is that while I agree that we out-innovate the rest of the world, I sure wouldn't take that for granted in the future.

And? (5, Interesting)

mindstormpt (728974) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729152)

The US R&D expenditure is bigger than the next five countries put together, and India is nowhere in the picture.
Money != Brains.

It does seem that Money = Arrogance though.

Re:And? (2, Funny)

NegativeFX (814039) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729236)

You Americans with your huge expenditures. Japanese expenditure so, so small.

Re:And? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729245)

Money != Brains.

It does seem that Money = Arrogance though.


On the other hand, Arrogance != Ignorance.

The US R&D expenditure is bigger than the next (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729158)

"The US R&D expenditure is bigger than the next five countries put together, and India is nowhere in the picture."

Yeah, but how much of this money is going to find itself in Bangalore?

What about europe (3, Insightful)

Shadez666 (736779) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729160)

"The US R&D expenditure is bigger than the next five countries put together, and India is nowhere in the picture." If you consider Europe as a country like entity then i am not sure the U.S. are so superior.

Forward Capiltalism! (1, Interesting)

ObsessiveMathsFreak (773371) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729169)

India appears to be doing incredibly well under the American Model. It's developing new technologies and expanding its industry and developing nuclear missiles at a huge rate while much of its population still lives in third world conditions, like Detroit.

I'm just wondering if gross inequality is a nessessary or sufficient condition for a country to undergo economic growth.

Re:Forward Capiltalism! (1)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729204)

much of its population still lives in third world conditions, like Detroit.

If you think Detroit is 3rd world, I suggest you visit Bangladesh.

I'm just wondering if gross inequality is a nessessary or sufficient condition for a country to undergo economic growth.

It seems clear that there has to be a reward for hard work and talent for a country to undergo economic growth. However that is only necessary, not sufficient.

Re:Forward Capiltalism! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729243)

Reminds me of North Korea. Building up their military and producing nukes. Meanwhile their population lived under third world standards. The only difference is North Korea isn't building an economy at the same time.

Sandniggers are not capable of development. (0, Flamebait)

NessusRed (710227) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729178)

Science has proven time and time again that the "mud" races are incapable of complex thought. I just saw a piece on 20/20 that had interviews with numerous well respected scientists explaining the difference between sand niggers brain makeup and white brain. The scientists claimed that that sand nigger brains did not have necessary neuro-pathways for complicated thought like math and engineering. This study was published by Harvard and is widely accepted by the scientific community. Sand niggers will never surpass white cultue because they are genetically inferior. That is a scientifically proven undisputable fact.

No (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729179)

No. They just think they can. It's only a matter of time before their own poor choice of cultures starts working against them and takes them down.

Nope! They are not! (-1, Troll)

HeavyMS (820705) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729200)

Paa at my swedish UNI we had some Indians that did a mayor in embedded system and dude i tell you they knew NOTHING! Thay where suposed to be Undergraduates ( i belive that is the correct term IE Batchelor of xxx) and they had never ever programed a microcontroller! They destroyed all the equipment in one of the lab rooms forcing the Proffesor to rebuild most of the stuff for the students that came next year(me). No i DO NOT fear India! paaa what a bunch of noobish fuckwits!

Re:Nope! They are not! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729232)

Is this supposed to be an example of irony? It sure seems like you fit the description very people you claim to be describing.

Re:Nope! They are not! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729246)

I can say that every bit of code I have seen from an Indian programmer (even those in the US) has been sub-standard (and typically re-written because of never decreasing bug counts). Sure they do excessive amounts of technical work. But very little of that work is as ingenous as work done by other cultures.

And you can deny it all you want. Culture has an immense role in the kind of technologies its people produce. A ridgid society will produce ridgid, uncreative engineers. America may have its faults, but the lifestyle and culture of Americans produces some of the most productive and creative people ever.

Re:Nope! They are not! (0, Troll)

Morgahastu (522162) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729254)

And apparently your class can't spell.

Newsflash c1630: Cheap Russian Labor for Gustav II (2, Interesting)

SparklesMalone (623241) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729291)

So Sweden paid to provide a valuable learning experience to Indian undergrads?

Corporate funding for R&D in school (5, Interesting)

1tsm3 (754925) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729216)

As long as the corporate funding for R&D in schools is as low as it is now in India, I don't think India (not Indians) will ever become a Knowledge superpower. I'm an Indian who is now in the U.S. It's just amazing on how many new things the undergrads in the US can work on when compared to how little the grads in India can work on. The difference is in extremes. Here in the U.S, even small univs undergrad team builds solar cars, in India, even the grads don't get enough money to work on something useful. Most of it is theory in India. Sad, but true. I wish corporates in India put enough money into R&D in Indian schools.

cost of doing business (5, Interesting)

freshfromthevat (135461) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729220)

In my experience (USA working with OEMs doing high tech products) the cost of doing business with Indian Engineers is too high. They have a long (45 day) import delay for prototype hardware. The engineers who hire with companies I'm familiar with stay for training and then jump jobs. The communications difficulties (time shifted from USA offices) and language/cultural difficulties (different holidays, different work culture) make doing business awkward and less efficient than working with rural Americans (for instance).

Eventually Indian companies will run their own engineers and see some efficiencies that way. Then USA OEMs could see some serious competition. The only thing that would hold Indian OEMs back is internal costs of doing business, duties, taxes, crime, limitations on cooperation due to secrecy, government corruption, etc.. . Like here in the USA. The top dog world wide is going to be the country with the greatest efficiencies of doing business. Time will tell.

The knowledge base will be distributed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729228)

If you look at a global corporation like General Electric, they've distributed the R&D to pull the best talent/resources from each region. They have research facilities in the US, India, China and Germany, and they are expanding all facilities including the US. I think this will be the trend for the future as opposed to total offshoring of R&D talent to one country.

I liked this one... (5, Interesting)

bogaboga (793279) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729261)

[...]The US R&D expenditure is bigger than the next five countries put together, and India is nowhere in the picture."

This I should mention includes inflated costs and bribes for bureaucrats. The Russians do much more and produce very durable space and nuclear equipment for less than one-third of our cost as Americans. This same reasoning presumes that if an individual lives on less than a dollar a day, they must be very badly off. I visited Uganda where a meal costing 4 US dollars was more than enough for me for two days!

Yes, India can and will be superpower whether we like it or not. It's not how much money one spends guys. The latest Russian aircraft costs less than half as much as our most advanced one, yet delivers more power and is even easily maintained. I wish our politicians get this into their heads.

Sucess isn't garanteed (4, Informative)

FiReaNGeL (312636) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729262)

From what I'm seeing, it seems to me that India WANTS to be a knowledge superpower. Following the massive outsourcing of IT to their country, they are seeking for ways to do it again in other hot fields, such as bioinformatics, drug development, etc. As the poster suggested, I think they are spreading their resources too thin. Will they succeed? Only time will tell. But from what I'm seeing on most bioinformatics related boards, most young Indians wanting to get in the field are not enough informed; most of the time, they want to study in bioinformatics without knowing anything about it, just because they've been promised jobs (it's a hot topic, you know?). Most of them don't speak English fluently too, which doesn't help us informing them.

Typical example taken from the Bioplanet [bioplanet.com] forum:

"hi everybody,
i did my b.sc. in biotechnology(with 78%) from India & presently doing PG diploma in bioinformatics, but i confuse what will better for me, shall i do m.sc.. But i want job,so please help me by sending information about biotechnology & good colleges for doing m.sc. in Biotechnology & finally give me your valuable suggestion. ................Thankyou."

Tons of posts like this one on bioinformatics boards, daily. I hope this represent a minority and that most Indians are better informed. There's a difference between outsourced tech support, where what you answer to the client or whether you fix his problem doesn't really matter, and being a 'knowledge superpower'. Now don't get me wrong, I hope that they'll succeed; developing fields like bioinformatics (and R&D in general) can always use more brainpower, and I don't care where it'll come from. But R&D needs money too... and tons of it.

It's a gamble India is taking with this. No guarantee of success, but at least they're trying, investing in the future.

One word (1)

mattboston (537016) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729265)

NO!!!

Best of both worlds? (4, Insightful)

Doc Ruby (173196) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729285)

But how much of that US R&D expense is being spent in India, and how much of the produced knowledge will stay in India?

India's Mafiosos are a real Problem (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11729290)

This will never be true until India gets out of the Mafia power structure mentality. Just google for stories of extortion in India. Unfortunately the USA is moving towards the Mafia direction with an attendent drop in it's productivity (ie MPAA, RIAA, Software Patents, etc).

A growing kid (4, Interesting)

argoff (142580) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729299)

I like to look at India like my precious daughter. She is growing 5 times faster than I am now, but she will likely not grow taller than I for quite awhile. The fundamental things holding back the USA are taxes, regulations, intellectual "property" restrictions, and just plain too much restrained freedom.

Eventually India will reach these barriers too, and so will the rest of the world until someone finds out how to persue and implement the "next generation" of freedoms. So even though they might eventually outsize the US because of sheer population - they will probably not surpass it per/capita until the next frontier of freedom is reached. (it will probably be ocean based communities in international waters)

Four words (1, Insightful)

Billobob (532161) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729301)

The Indian Institute(s) of Technology.

India = CMM5 (2, Interesting)

hacked (838690) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729308)

Most companies in India are certified CMM level 5 (the highest level) using the Software Engineering Institute (SEI) conceptual maturity model. Most companies in the US are certified CMM level 3. This says a lot.

What happened to buy "Made In America" (1)

HockeyPuck (141947) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729310)

Y'know we used to take pride in "Made In America" whether it be clothes or cars. Odd how we'd rather outsource to another country employing 1000s in the foreign country so a few (read: execs) in American can prosper.

If the US is turning into more of a consumer based economy by importing more and less of a producer/exporter, then where does our income come from? What will these countries by from us besides food?

-HockeyPuck-> .

The time has come... (1)

devadutta (843797) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729314)

Indians, according to me, were attracted to U.S because of the kind of opportunities(and pay scales) they got there. But now, the Indian politicians are finally showing some maturity and are waking up to encourage Indian talent. This is partly because of our president, who is a missile scientist himself. With a full fledged effort from both the civilians and the leaders,India will become a knowledge superpower very soon.

As Someone who just came back from India... (5, Interesting)

AnyLoveIsGoodLove (194208) | more than 9 years ago | (#11729317)

I took a trip to the south of India (Kerala, Banglore, and Channai (Madras). I spent a month and for the most parts avoided the tourist areas. My inlaws live far away from the nearest town in Kerala.

discoslure:

I'm a 31 year old white male whose worked in the computer industry since I graduated from college.

A few General Observations:

What India has going for them....

1) I've never seen a country so utterly focused on education (remember I spent my time in the South). Education is the only way out for Indians. The pressure is unbelievable for young people to perform in school. Everywhere you go you see signs for schools / education

2) English is spoken fluently among the college educated. English is the language of business in the south (in major cities, white collar type of work) b/c there are 19 "official" languages with an unbelievable number of dialects. Combine with the business process outsourcing (BPO), and you get a lot of focus around English language skills. I tried to learn the local dialect, but everyone wanted to practice English...

3) India graduates over 1 M engineers a year. There schools are extremely competitive. Areas such as Kerala have a 100% literacy rate, this meets or exceeds any Western country...

4) Motivation and drive. It's amazing what people will do to better themselves. This motivation and drive provides the foundation for the above. Spending a week in Bangalore was absolutely refreshing (and the food was great). To see all the young people full of life and excited was contagious... I can't wait to go back. I love seeing all the tech companies signs....

5) Economics. The largest middle class in the World, in sheer numbers. In India, it takes 2,000 USD a year to achieve a middle class lifestyle, that's ~1,500 EUR and ~1200 UK sterling. This middle class will drive the world's manufacturers to provide low priced quality goods, and the whole world will benefit.

6) Politics. Democracy works, although its not neccessarliy the kind the US imagines. A diverse group of cultures / languages get a long in a basic sense. Is it perfect no, but it gives me hope for places like Iraq.

What Challenges are ahead for India

1) Education: The focus on engineering has led to a culture that is not entrepreneur focused. It takes a diverse set of skills to move out of the BPO / Manufacturing mindset. Take Apple's IPOD. It took American design and a world wide supply chain to make this happen. The key is the design. That's what makes a product sell, manufacturing is important, but if you don't move up the chain, you will always have difficultly. Note to engineers: Get jobs that are customer facing and can't be outsourced...

2) Gaps There are 100's of Millions still in dire poverty and extreme education. If the middle class and the rich get too far ahead of the rest of the country, I think there will be a lot of social unrest.

3) Environment. India is a shit hole to put it nicely. If they don't clean up sooner rather than later, India will face a lot of health care cost for the population. Also, in Kerala, fresh water is an issue.

It's the old problem of changing mindsets. The tech version is a company that sold hardware and now wants to sell software or services only. Its huge change and most fail.

That's it I look forward to replies to others who have been to the south and I'm curious what your opinions are...

I loved it and I can't wait to go back......

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