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Red Hat Promises A More Vibrant Fedora

timothy posted more than 9 years ago | from the striking-a-balance dept.

Red Hat Software 548

loki99 points out a CNET story about the direction Red Hat's development has taken (and changes in the wind), writing "Michael Tiemann, vice president of Red Hat, admits that after exclusively concentrating on Red Hat Enterprise Linux in recent years, they left those 'early adopters' behind. 'It insulted some of our best supporters. But worse, we lost our opportunity to do customer-driven innovation.' Tiemann said." The recent Boston FUDcon (mentioned in the linked article) is one example of how the company wants to revitalize non-corporate interest.

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FUD? (3, Funny)

fm6 (162816) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732510)

Not the most carefully chosen acronym!

Re:FUD? (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732604)

Not the most carefully chosen acronym!

Neither is fm6, genius.

Re:FUD? (4, Informative)

tempest303 (259600) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732633)

The name is supposed to be funny/ironic.

Re:FUD? (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732798)

Okay, it won't be long before 5 people post incorrect definitions of irony to "correct" you.

So let me just say that I think a better word to use would be sardonic rather than ironic.

And also to note that irony is best defined as a poignant contrast between expectations or intentions with the actual outcome. The poignant part's the important thing.

Although that doesn't include Socratic irony, but that's an entirely different meaning and it's fading from modern English.

Problem with Fedora and Linux in General (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732513)

Well, here's the problem kids. Try this... Point yourself to ComputerJobs.com [computerjobs.com] :

Search for "Linux developer" : 1 Result
Search for ".NET developer" : 132 Results

Well, I wonder which I'm gonna learn?

Re:Problem with Fedora and Linux in General (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732551)

Search for "Linux": 404 Results
Search for "Windows": 183 Results

- Justin

Re:Problem with Fedora and Linux in General (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732619)

Sorry to burst your little FUD bubble but "Windows"... 1,380 results.

Re:Problem with Fedora and Linux in General (1)

einhverfr (238914) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732570)

You must be studying Java ;-)

Maybe some of us are focused on value rather than just being in search of a job. As a consultant, I find that Linux brings more value to my customers.

Yeah, so you are a troll. Remember what happens when the sun rises? Hint: Read alvismal

Re:Problem with Fedora and Linux in General (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732638)

As a consultant, you will have a lot more customers if you specialize in the Windows world.

Re:Problem with Fedora and Linux in General (4, Insightful)

cbreaker (561297) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732731)

And to add to that, I believe that all the Windows IT professionals that continue to ignore Linux will end up on the you know what end of the stick.

The trend towards Linux systems has been steadily going up, never down, and there's no sign of slow down.

When Linux IT jobs begin to out-number Windows IT jobs, it could even bring Information Technology as a viable career choice, one which is not filled with underqualified people that got in during the .com era and won't leave.

Re:Problem with Fedora and Linux in General (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732796)

What do people actually in write .NET anyway ?

FUDCon? (-1, Offtopic)

schmidt349 (690948) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732515)

Wouldn't a FUDCon be more up SCO's alley?

Re:FUDCon? (0)

luvirini (753157) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732908)

nah.. Redhat has been good at creating atleast the uncertainty part.. Though based on this they are trying to fix it.

Shouldn't that read... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732516)

Vibrantly.

The vibration is propagating (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732603)

VIbrant

vIBrant

viBRant

vibRAnt

vibrANt

vibraNT

vibranT

Holy crap. (1)

Caspian (99221) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732517)

There's a whole convention devoted to FUD [wikipedia.org] ?

"FUDcon"??? (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732518)

Has maybe it occurred to them that this isn't the brightest name ever???

Re: "FUDcon"??? (1)

flargleblarg (685368) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732665)

FUDcon is where all the dogs get together and lure all the cats into clothes dryers with clever signage [severetiredamage.net] .

VIbrant Fedora? (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732522)

I, for one, welcome our bright magenta overlords of haberdashery.

Sexist! (0)

fm6 (162816) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732900)

Haberdashery is men's clothing.

Re:Sexist! (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732949)

Uh, but Fedoras typically aren't worn by women.

While we're fantasizing ... (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732526)

Can they promise a non-bloated Fedora? And perhaps one that doesn't freeze on boot when I have my wireless USB mouse plugged in?

Re:While we're fantasizing ... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732644)

Try DSL [damnsmalllinux.org] .
DSL probably won't support your fancy mouse, but you might as well give it a go.

Re:While we're fantasizing ... (1)

houseofzeus (836938) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732697)

To be fair, it's not *that* bad for bloat. I installed Fedora Core 3 on a desktop machine the other day and got it down to about a gig. Though granted I 'cheated' by using Xfce and not using Openoffice...

Basically I'm not sure that you can have bloat free and choice in a distro. If you give the user lots of choices of apps then an unfortunate side effect is that you end up with large overlapping libraries.

This is probably best exhibited on the desktop with fedora where some 'bad' package choices can easily land you with the majority of Gnome and KDE BOTH installed even when you use only one or worse niether of them.

Re:While we're fantasizing ... (1)

niteice (793961) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732936)

Basically I'm not sure that you can have bloat free and choice in a distro.


Ever heard of Slackware? It's definitely not bloated and still provides a huge assortment of packages.

Re:While we're fantasizing ... (5, Informative)

Kyouryuu (685884) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732760)

I'm not sure it's a matter of it being bloated - more at just disorganized such that bloat is the end result. For example, Mepis and Ubuntu Linux each chime in at just one CD and it contains all of the essentials. An office suite, web browser, e-mail, and a GUI of some kind. With Fedora, you download four CDs worth of stuff, the majority of which the average user just plain doesn't need. But, Fedora is not organized such that the basic essentials are grouped on the first CD, making the other three extraneous. Instead, it's sprawled out evenly across four of them. The progress bar even shows that OpenOffice spans two CDs.

Re:While we're fantasizing ... (1)

secretsquirel (805445) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732842)

How about at least have a default associations for freaking rpms, don't know if thats changed since then but come on.

Re:While we're fantasizing ... (1)

justi9 (545090) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732885)

It's worth noting that, while all of what you want may not be present on the first CD, Fedora does not require you to download all 4 CDs. You only need the first 2 CDs to install the "personal desktop" profile, and then you can get whatever else you'd like via yum.

Re:While we're fantasizing ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732924)

The release manager for Fedora follows a well-tested, strict set of instructions for building the release CD's:

1. Stick head up ass
2. ?????
3. Randomly put RPMS on CD's

Re:While we're fantasizing ... (2, Insightful)

Koiu Lpoi (632570) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732773)

Another example of substance versus form. Here, it seems they want to attract more potential buyers - not fix the problems in the OS, but make it look like it doesn't have them.

Re:While we're fantasizing ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732872)

Who cares anymore. They didn't want non-business customers, so IMO they deserve to die.
With Debian and Gentoo, who gives a shit about Dead Hat/

What is vibrant about it? (4, Insightful)

Dancin_Santa (265275) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732546)

Any company, even one as evil and condescending as Microsoft, needs to engage their customers. It is just a rule of business that if you don't listen to your customers they will leave you.

Apple computers, under the steady hand of Steve Jobs is magnificent in this regard. They seem to be leading the market in certain directions, but it is more that Steve Jobs is tuned into the customer zeitgeist that he "leads" the customers by following them and providing them with what they want.

RedHat seems to have finally learned this lesson. After throwing out a lot of goodwill by leaving their best customers in the dust (by bringing out the largely incompatible Fedora distro), they seem to have caught on that they need to be where their customers are, not where they want their customers to be.

Re:What is vibrant about it? (2, Interesting)

JediJorgie (700217) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732776)

"...he "leads" the customers by following them and providing them with what they want."

Yea, cause none of us stupid max users have asked for a two button mouse out of the box or the ability to resize a windows from ANY side!

I just love having to install 4 or 5 utilities just to get base functionality that we have been asking for SINCE 6.0!

Jorgie

Re:What is vibrant about it? (3, Interesting)

RichardtheSmith (157470) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732794)

Well where a lot of us "are" (like me) is still on RH9 wondering what
path to take when we absolutely need to go to a 2.6 distro. Fedora
was seen as a take-away when it came out and I don't see that
situation changing in any real way. They should give back what they
took away, that is, a free-as-in-beer distro that represents the best
of what Red Hat and the community process has to offer. Either do
that or walk away.


Don't treat us like we're stupid. We spend a lot of time getting used
to the "flavor" of a distro and you can't just change all that around
and expect us to take it. We want the old Red Hat back. We want an
RH10 distro or something very close to it.


Of course I am not holding my breath.

Re:What is vibrant about it? (1)

Scallawag (859777) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732961)

Some people are die hard Linux "freebie" users, but people like me pay the $75 for a killer distro like Suse 9.2 and NEVER have a problem keeping our systems up to date. For me it's worth it. My 64-bit box has been thankful a long time. I recently installed it on both my kids computers, too. I could not let them grow up on Microsoft OS, thinking that system crashes were to be accepted and promises of a better tomorrow was a good enough excuse. :)

Re:What is vibrant about it? (3, Interesting)

jav1231 (539129) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732987)

It doesn't even have to be "free as in beer." Many of us used to buy boxed set RH. Frankly, I would again. They can bring that back, as you say. Hell, they even admitted that they didn't lose money on it (despite what so many have said, RH admitted this. Search Slashdot, you'll find it.)

Re:What is vibrant about it? (5, Insightful)

LnxAddct (679316) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732990)

Fedora Core 1 was RH10. It was simply a name change, nothing else. Same engineers still working on it. The distro is still rock solid and even easier to use then RH9. The only thing they did is decide to not ask for money for it anymore. Honestly, check out FC3 if you ever get the chance, you won't be disappointed.
Regards,
Steve

Comparing MS to RH (1)

ChuckSchwab (813568) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732848)

How can you even compare Microsoft to Red Hat? They're not even in the same league! Microsoft consistently offers top quality products like Windows (with free upgrades), the whole .NET framework, awesome flight simulators, HALO(!), I mean, the list fucking goes on. How can you possibly badmouth Mircosoft?

Re:What is vibrant about it? (1)

mr_z_beeblebrox (591077) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732871)

It is just a rule of business that if you don't listen to your customers they will leave you.

What they are failing to state is that they knew that. They did not take into account the fact that the "open source model" got them to the point that they could adopt their "business model". Their business model said that just because some pimple faced kid helped them be able resume operation after a PCIx pc went into suspend mode, doesn't make that kid important. After all, he downloaded a free product. So, they were willing to dismiss all these "customers" and then found their "innovation base" was lost. IMHO, if you use a free product and contribute to that products growth and stability you are a damned good customer. But still, corporations pay thousands a year for entitlements....they must be more important.

More packages. Yay. (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732548)

Tiemann hopes the current 1,600 or so different software packages in Fedora will grow as high as 3,000 or 4,000 this way.

In other news, Fedora will be the first distro to ship on 50 CDs, containing mostly half assed apps.

Re:More packages. Yay. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732579)

I guess somebody forgot to tell debian that.

They come with 7 CDs worth of every shitty little app some kid and his mom wrote on sourceforge.

They take 4 years to make a new release so they can be sure the package for "bobby joes mp3 renamer script" is ultra stable.

VIbrant Fedora, with a capital "VI" ?? (5, Funny)

Doppler00 (534739) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732549)

I hope this doesn't mean it will be based entirely on the user interface of vi.

Re:VIbrant Fedora, with a capital "VI" ?? (1)

djplurvert (737910) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732591)

I think the VI refers to "uptimes" measured in hours as opposed to minutes.

ymmv.

Re:VIbrant Fedora, with a capital "VI" ?? (5, Funny)

dubbreak (623656) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732896)

What, you would prefer EMACSparkling Fedora?

Re:VIbrant Fedora, with a capital "VI" ?? (1)

flatface (611167) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732957)

Because emacs is already an operating system.

Re:VIbrant Fedora, with a capital "VI" ?? (1)

mr_z_beeblebrox (591077) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732917)

I hope this doesn't mean it will be based entirely on the user interface of vi.

Why not? I for one, find a blank page with a cursor to be very inVIting.

Re:VIbrant Fedora, with a capital "VI" ?? (1)

luvirini (753157) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732931)

well the :q! command would be handy.. shutdown system without saving changes..

FUDCon (3, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732556)

..With special guest Maureen O'Gara, Laura Didio and Rob Enderle

Fedora (3, Insightful)

secondsun (195377) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732557)

My only experience with Fedora came in the form of FC2. It was the closest thing to Linux ME I have ever seen.

The problem Red Hat has had is not that Fedora is slow on the bleeding edge, but the group seems to be ignoring user request for simple feature fixes [citing a 6 month release schedule]. On the other hand by distancing themselves form free (as in beer) distros, RH has begun making money and gaining mindshare in the business world. RH can loose all they want in the desktop end, but as long as they keep the workstaion/support contract end alive and well they will continue to make money.

Re:Fedora (2, Interesting)

HBI (604924) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732592)

You get your foot in the door by having IT people who run it at home.

See the problem yet? I stopped using RedHat when they discontinued the free up2date. Now other distros come in the door with me.

Re:Fedora (3, Informative)

LnxAddct (679316) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732893)

What are you talking about? Up2date is completely free, and Fedora is an excellent distro with all the same engineers behind it that built the world reknowned previous versions of the Red Hat desktop. Don't let the fud on slashdot let you think otherwise, its the only distro out of about 7 that I've tried that works on my laptop. Everything is super easy to use, set up, and configure. Its one of those distros that retains the power of linux, but everything just works. I'm very impressed with it, so much so that it has been phasing out my debian servers. I actually currently only have one debian server left, more so for its uptime then anything else :)
Regards,
Steve

Re:Fedora (1)

secretsquirel (805445) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732996)

me 2

Re:Fedora (0, Flamebait)

Kyouryuu (685884) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732853)

Troll? I think he speaks the truth.

For example, is including an easy-to-use frontend for Yum right "out of the box" so difficult? Is there a reason why that cruel joke of "Add/Remove Programs (so long as they came off the installation CD and if not we can't help you)" still persists? Doesn't seem like it, but we've been stuck with it since at least Red Hat 9, if not 8.

To be fair, FC3 is a great deal better than FC2. But, for me, it's still one of the least polished distributions out there.

Rawhide (4, Interesting)

IO ERROR (128968) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732563)

I've been following rawhide, and I can tell you there has been much more active development lately. GNOME 2.9 is one of the big things introduced recently. Hardly a week goes by there aren't 100 packages or more that have been patched/updated. It's exciting to follow now.

No supported upgrade path... (3, Informative)

OgGreeb (35588) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732574)

I used RHL9 exclusively for my production servers along with a subscription to Red Hat Network for each machine, for the security patches. I've never needed RedHat's other support services and couldn't justify the cost of purchasing them to my clients. When RH discontinued RHL9 and provided no upgrade path from RHL9 to RHEL3 (re-install from scratch only), I had no choice but to put all the old servers on Fedora Legacy support and plan to use other distributions. I begged for an upgrade installer path from Red Hat salesmen with no effect -- I even had approval from most of my clients to purchase RHEL3 for their machines, but the danger of installing from scratch was too high.

Even now I don't understand why they did that. That kind of move fails Marketing 101.

Re: No supported upgrade path... (3, Insightful)

metamatic (202216) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732759)

That's my problem with RedHat as a whole.

I ran Fedora for a while. It was OK. But then another Fedora release came out, and there was no supported upgrade path--you had to reinstall again from scratch from a CD.

Well, I used to have to reinstall from scratch every six months when I ran Windows. That's why I switched to Linux. I want to install from scratch from CD exactly once, barring disk failure, and then have updates flow down automatically.

So now I run Debian and Gentoo. If RedHat want to get me running Fedora, they'll have to fix the upgrade problem. Getting rid of RPM would be a good start.

Re: No supported upgrade path... (2)

LnxAddct (679316) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732927)

FC1 -> FC2 had some minor issues. FC2 -> FC3 had very very few reported problems with people upgrading. FC3 is probably the nicest distro on the market right now and judging form the work that has been going into FC4, FC4 is going to be amazing. If you were disappointed by FC1, I'd check out FC4 when it is released. FC3 is very nice and polished. Everything just works, yet it retains the power of linux. I've been very impressed with it.
Regards,
Steve

Re: No supported upgrade path... (5, Insightful)

eakerin (633954) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732946)

I upgraded my laptop from Fedora Core 2 to Fedora Core 3 just fine. Put the FC3 cd in, boot it, and select "Upgrade", I did the same thing from Fedora Core 1 to Fedora Core 2. I even upgraded Redhat 9 to Fedora Core 1. What's the big deal here? It's worked exactly like this since I started on redhat in the 5.2 days, and probably before that too, but I didn't use RH before that version.

On other systems I've even done upgrades on Fedora Core with YUM.

Also, please tell me what's wrong with RPM. Don't bring apt-get into this, cause RPM isn't a repository installer. If you want to talk software repository based install, you need to compare dpkg to RPM, and apt-get to YUM.

I'm tired of people saying RPM sucks, and then comparing RPM to apt-get. I know, it's the "cool thing" to make fun of RPM.

Re:No supported upgrade path... (1)

toddbu (748790) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732817)

I had the same problem. Thankfully, I had a solution. I had switched from Mandrake to RedHat about a year before then end of RHL9 on the theory that every data center in the world supported RedHat, but the switch back to Mandrake was painless. This is because Mandrake was originally based on RedHat, and virtually any RPM generated for RedHat runs on Mandrake. I get all the support that I want for free, although I subscribe to Mandrake Club for $120/year to help keep Mandrake in business. The distro is pretty stable and keeps current on most packages.

I'm not sure what this announcement means for us other than we might reconsider RedHat at some future point if they can step up to the plate. There's a lot for them to overcome though. Not only did we feel the pain of having them cut off support, but when we tried to complain via email we found that the first three email addresses we tried bounced back as invalid. If they can't keep valid email addresses on their web site, how much confidence can we have in these guys?

Re:No supported upgrade path... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732882)

RHEL3 is RHL9. Just change your yum or up2date sources and run...

You're a moron.

Questions for Red Hat customers... (5, Interesting)

aendeuryu (844048) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732594)

Man, sometimes I wish Slashdot did user-generated polls.

Anyhow, some questions to you Red Hat customers...

When Red Hat started Fedora and then switched its major focus to the enterprise, how many of you stayed loyal to Red Hat, and how many of you went to another distro?

And, of those that left, how many of you are willing to embrace the return of the prodigal son?

Re:Questions for Red Hat customers... (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732612)

I used to use debian but got sick of the ridiculous release schedule and way out of date support for a variety of things.

So when Redhat announced Fedora I looked it over and made the switch.

Do I have complaints with Fedora? Yes.

Still the 6 month release schedule with emphasis on innovation beats debians emphasis on political bickering and outdatedness.

Re:Questions for Red Hat customers... (1)

HelloDolly (844982) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732700)

I ditched Redhat for a good year. I had always liked their distros, though. A friend of mine told me that he liked FC1 and told me to check it out. I installed F2 and now FC3 and don't have a problem with it, generally. This summer (after classes are over) I intend to play with a few other distros, though.

Questions for Red Hat customers...Mandrake. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732735)

So which one will you take? RedHat or Mandrake?*

*SuSe seems to be *too* different.

Re:Questions for Red Hat customers... (2, Informative)

laughingcoyote (762272) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732734)

Went to Gentoo, and I've been happier then hell with it. I'm just fine where I am and wouldn't have any reason to come back.

Re:Questions for Red Hat customers... (1)

gimpboy (34912) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732737)

I moved the systems for which I am responsible to Debian. After expending the effort to figure out the the in's and out's of Debian, I wouldn't switch. I'm actually quite happy with debian. The new sarge installer works really well.

Re:Questions for Red Hat customers... (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732764)

I'll stay a coward on this one. When RH support ran out, I put my 12 or so customers servers on fedora legacy updates (RH7.3) I dabble around with Debian but it really doesn't work for the particular customer set I have. I have also dabble around with FreeBSD 4.9 10 and 11 and a bit of 5.3 mostly for mail servers, BUT for my paying customers (I roll about 2 to 4 SAMBA and rsync Backup servers a month), I am using White Box/CentOS. I am not going to use Fedora,with it's bleeding edge, and six month update schedule and I am not going to pay Red Hats over priced support fees for security patches (all I need from them).

Re:Questions for Red Hat customers... (1)

LnxAddct (679316) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732962)

From my perspective: Red Hat is really the only distro on the market that reliable works well, at least from my experiences. For clients interested in linux, Fedora or Red Hat Enterprise Desktop(depending upon their level of necessary support, and amount of cash) have really worked out amazingly well. Fedora, despite it's "bleeding edge" schedule has worked nicely for servers as well and the upgrade path from FC2 to FC3 was as easy as a yum update for most of my clients. I am very impressed with it.
Regards,
Steve

Re:Questions for Red Hat customers... (1)

dumpsterKEEPER (787464) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732806)

I was never a RedHat "customer" per se, as I never used their commercial distos, but I used to use RH 8 and 9 for several workstations/servers for personal use. When the Fedora stuff started up it forced my hand to try Slackware (I had been meaning to, just never got around to it before that). Having used Slackware for a while now on a number of machines, I have no reason to go back at all.

I'm sure RH is still doing good things, but I'll take the simplicity and flexibility Slackware gives me any day.

Re:Questions for Red Hat customers... (1)

ebingo (533762) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732861)

I got fed up of the RPMs so I switched over to Gentoo when it was around version 1.3 and I am not going back... For my older computers that would take days to compile, I switched to Slackware.

mo3 up (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732598)

oh, now you want to be friends again. (0, Troll)

hkg4r7h (468346) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732614)

Redhat have done and are still doing a lot for linux, but as a non-business linux user, I say they can get lost.

Not a production OS (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732618)

The problem with Fedora is that it will always be in a conflict of interests with RH "Enterprise" offerings and, thus, it will be held back from becoming a real production OS.

Debian, on the other hand, is excellent, stable, widely supported Linux disro that most people use to run production systems.

We migrated from RH to Debian a while ago and are very happy with change.

Too little too late? I've only a RH machine left (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732631)

The rest have been migrated to or installed since day one with other distributions, and the RH one will follow the same path soon.

Re:Too little too late? I've only a RH machine lef (5, Interesting)

gimpboy (34912) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732711)

I'm in the same boat as you. I tried the redhat enterprise option and the software was a little on the old side. Naturally I tried fedora. Core 1 was pretty nice, but cores 2 and 3 broke a couple of the apps we use. Most notibly components in matlab we depend on. Now I've turned to Debian. We can use stable for the servers and testing for the workstations. Testing is new enough that it comes with firefox, but not so new that it breaks the stuff we need.

It was a shame really. I happily paid for the RHE download. I used redhat for seven years and I think they deserve some support. They are focusing on their corporate customers, and that is where they should go if it keeps them in business. They still support many free software developers and give back to the community.

The only things we have running redhat at school are some rack systems that are behind a firewall. I still have it installed on my desktop at home, but that computer is being replaced by my new powerbook. I still like them as a company, I'm just no longer their target audience.

Too little, too late (5, Insightful)

countach (534280) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732632)

Oh man, Red Hat were warned about this two years ago. Every man and his dog knew this would happen, and said so openly here on Slashdot. Now suddenly, RedHat have figured this out. Me thinks they are slow learners. I'm still running the last version of RedHat before this debacle occured, and when I can muster the effort will leave my many MANY years of RedHat behind in favour of Debian.

Re:Too little, too late (1)

kaffiene (38781) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732726)

Yeah, me too. I entered the Linux world via Red Hat, but thanks to their "dump the crappy users" stunt with Fedora, I switched to Debian. Never been happier. Mainly because I know that shit won't ever happen with Debian. Red Hat has proven that they cannot be trusted.

Fuck em.

Re:Too little, too late (2, Informative)

Brandybuck (704397) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732795)

Article summary: Redhat tells core users to sod' off, then wonders why it doesn't have any core users.

Re:Too little, too late (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732887)

I'm still running the last version of RedHat before this debacle occured, and when I can muster the effort will leave my many MANY years of RedHat behind in favour of Debian.

Are you referring to their dropping support? I missed the whole thing because I moved from RH7.x to FC2 just last fall. Development seems pretty active, and I am pleased that everything (for me, anyway) finally "just works"(TM).

Penitence? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732640)

Perhaps they're feeling a bit bad about steamrolling the CentOS guys. Whatever affinity/sympathy/allegience I had to Redhat took a major backwards step when they put the arm on a group of folks who were just trying to do the right thing.

See http://www.centos.org/

for details if you're interested. Though I believe they may have taken the article down under threat of retaliation from Redhat's lawyers.

Cheers,

Re:Penitence? (1)

LilMikey (615759) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732910)

Sounds like what they're doing is a lot like the Whitebox [whiteboxlinux.org] guys. I can see no indication of threats on their part. I've never used either so they might not be even close to the same thing.

Is FUDCon (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732653)

really the best choice of a name? Shouldn't that be SCO confrence or something?

rubber baby buggy bumper (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732674)

I'm gonna git you sucka!

I hate RedHat's distro version upgrade path. Live upgrades are much easier now with yum, but it can still be difficult. Usually much has changed, requiring some packages to be manually upgraded and others forced.

They should get rid of the distro versions all together, no more Fedora Core 1, 2, or 3, just Fedora. I don't see why they can't just push out new packages and make a refresher set of cd images every 6 months or so. Then new installations won't require 600mb of patches right off the bat and everyone will always be and stay current when they update with yum. No more downtime with inter-distro cd or botched live upgrades.

It's been years since I switched from RedHat to Debian at home and although there have been improvements, it's still nowhere near Debian's wonderful system.

If there's one thing I will always regret, it's going with RedHat way back when. Pain in the frick.

Re:rubber baby buggy bumper (1)

LilMikey (615759) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732944)

In all fairness, they pretty much do what you're asking. They claim to aim for a 6 month release schedule and the do offer updated packages when they're available. I wouldn't count on the version numbers thing going away as every distro tracks major releases some how: Fedora, Suse, Slackware, Mandrake use numbers. Debian, Gentoo, and other use names.

If you're really into the most up to date crap, look in to atrpms. You can update through yum or they have an apt for rpm as well. I'm sure their packages are less organized or stable than Debian stable but they're newer as well.

Already Screwed the Pooch (1, Interesting)

miyako (632510) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732715)

It seems to me that redhat has already screwed the pooch in terms of it's desktop niche among the true geeks.
Although I can only speak from personal experience, I've heard a lot of other people echo my sentiments.
I used redhat almost exclusively since somewhere around version 4. I used redhat up until the end (though I stuck with 7.3 and never upgraded to 8 or 9, and I think 8 signaled the beginning of the end). I bought basically ever release, and always recommended RedHat about any other distribution, because it was the distribution I knew best.
When redhat basically abandon their customers, and with the negative things I heard about Fedora, I started looking around for another distribution.
Eventually I switched over to Suse, which is IMHO a much better distribution than RedHat ever thought about being. Now, my money goes to Suse (well, I guess to novell now), when people ask about a distribution, I recommend Suse, and whenever I'm working with a company trying to decide what to run on their servers, I recommend Suse. (Of course, I've heard some nasty things about 9.2, so I'm going to wait around with 9.1 and see if things get better with 9.3, or switch to another distro, probably gentoo).
The thing is, as much as redhat wants Linux to be enterprise driven, it's still the geeks that seem to have a lot of influence in the tides of Linux.

It's true (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732779)

I was a "RedHat Man", always using Redhat, for years, until they split their distros between Enterprise and Fedora. I never used a Fedora distro. I switched to Suse and I'm happy with it, and won't switch back unless Suse screws up somehow. Also KDE is a lot nicer desktop environment than Gnome.

pinch front (1)

ginotech (816751) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732784)

I'm glad for this news. The fedora i have now is too dull, and it's starting to warp from staying in my suitcase too long. I need a nice new bright red one

Re:pinch front (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732974)

I need a nice new bright red one

Why do I get a mental picture of ginotech as a pimp daddy?

Tell me it ain't so, ginotech, tell me it ain't so!

(PS. if the "gino" derives from "gyno" to indicate a feminine status of the user, please don't take offence: you can be a pimp momma!)

Sticking my neck out here... (1)

Smiffa2001 (823436) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732803)

As a relative Linux n00b, I'd like to say that I do like FC3 and I've had very little trouble, apart from the afore-mentioned USB-mouse-crash-problem. I'd even recommend it to friends and the like.

I've had PCMCIA cards work fine, sound, cedega/EVE-Online and other stuff work without too much of a problem. Maybe I just don't uber-tinker enough...

Re:Sticking my neck out here... (1)

LilMikey (615759) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732964)

I'm going to agree with you. FC1 was a little shakey, it was the initial release after all. FC2 was the low-point, if you ask me. And now FC3 is pretty decent. The SELinux/udev thing threw me for a loop initially but I'm really liking the new Fedora.

And I've had no usb mouse problems.

Welcome to CentOS and RHEL alternatives. (4, Informative)

Zeio (325157) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732820)

Fedora and RedHat to me is annoying - I can't bring myself to use it professionally. It changes too frequently and is poorly supported in my opinion, never fix the problems, always upgrade the packages to move the problem somewhere else. Right now I still have machines running RedHat 7.3 running updates on the fedora legacy project. (There are legacy projects to keep the older RedHat's and various Fedora Cores alive because people hate upgrading a working system every 5 minutes.)

RedHat died the day up2date stopped working for free. Welcome to CentOS 3 and now CentOS, with up2date replaced by yum (which is arguably better). I've found CentOS to be every bit as good as the real RHEL. Please do what you can to support CentOS, as this is what RedHat was for all of us since what, Version 3.x?

My fondest memories of Linux distributions include: RedHat 6.2, the longest supported Linux, which I used past its deprecation, and Cobalt Linux. What could be better than a Linux that feels like it gets the same support level of Solaris.

Microsoft has messed up in a similar way with Windows 2000. Why no SP5? Why no SP7 for Windows NT 4.0? Why not have an SP every 3-4 months? This is very difficult to deal with general, particularly with software one has to pay for.

Ideally, everyone would do what Sun does with Solaris, and what CentOS (RHEL) does. Release a new update every 3-4 months, and have ongoing patching in between. Sun knocks it up a notch and separates the nice to have patches from the critical ones in the Recommended cluster.

Back to Fedora. RedHat jumped that shark at RedHat 8. I was done with RedHat at version 8. Luckily, CentOS 3 and now 4 (which us running great, SELinux and all) provides us with a way to get a Linux with a 5 year lifetime without changing our applications so that they compile on glibc-threads-of-doom-version-99.09099999-alpha-b6 -beta-theta-gamma-ppr6_pre1_rc5.

Right now there seems to be one thing missing from LinuxLand, and that's a more complete IPCop. I want IPCop based on 2.6 and a fully working IPSec/L2TP --and-- PPTPd that works with Windows 2000 and Windows XP/2003 clients without any modifications whatsoever. RedHat should craft up someone to heavily OpenWall/SmoothWall/Astaro/IPCop/OpenBSD/Checkpoin t-Nokia/PIX/etc. Beating a PIX should be real easy.

Back to RedHat miffing things up and leaving itself vulnerable to Novell taking over the leadership role of Linux leader. I've found that using Solaris, FreeBSD, OpenBSD and non-RedHat Linux like CentOS is pretty much the preferred MO these days. One thing that RedHat needs besides a firewall killer application, is a total drop in Exchange killer like Scalix.

One thing I have to pay homage to Solaris - I really like providing NFS with Solaris. I always set and forget Solaris, its a pain in the arcane butt with a fairly austere userland, but once its configured it runs like a champion. Im curious to see if RHEL 4 / CentOS 4 can provide NFS v4 services but I'm skeptical about it and will probably just use them as clients and leave the job of shoveling out NFS to client to the guys who invented it.

If they wanna support the community... (2, Insightful)

LilMikey (615759) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732856)

...put Axel Thimm on the payroll. If it wasn't for him I, for one, wouldn't be running Fedora.

Meh, I had already moved to Mandrake.... (2, Insightful)

otis wildflower (4889) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732890)

.... when Mandrake 7.1 hit. Then, of course, I found gentoo and have been compiling ever since.

IMHO, the only reason to run RedHat is because a particular proprietary vendor (such as, say, Oracle) supports only RH with their proprietary app.

I think it was deeply stupid for RH to drop their power-user distros, and Fedora was never a legit substitute. Methinks RH's strategies gave SuSE a golden opportunity to expand in the US market, and probably prompted Novell to buy SuSE.

The next set of infrastructure servers that need to run any kind of proprietaryware, I'm probably going to be recommending SuSE/Novell..

Ease of use in Fedora is good and getting better (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732903)

I have been using Fedora since version 1.0 and it works well. The one thing I like about Fedora 3 is that all the system utilities have nicely designed UI's designed in Python-GTK. The UI's work nicely and help people migrating to linux from windows. Applications like system-config-network and system-config-services are nice to have so you don't need to remember every command line option.

So Redhat made a mistake and abandoned some users. Big deal it is just another company people! The new direction Redhat is taking with Fedora is a nice step at admitting they made an error and are willing to work with the community to fix it.

Next time you are in a large bookstore like Barnes'n Noble take a look at the unix section. Fedora Redhat books take up a whole shelf to themselves now. Yes, Fedora is that popular now. It works, it is easy to use, you don't have to wait 2 days while it compiles.

The Yum command line RPM dependency updater works great in FC3 and FC4. FC4 is going to rock. Just wait and see.

Re:Ease of use in Fedora is good and getting bette (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11732942)

Fedora is the best Red Hat Linux which I've used. I started using Red Hat with 5.2. But Fedora is the best yet because it is so easy to keep it current with security patches and bug fixes. Once you get your Fedora set up the way you like it, there is nothing left to do but occasionally run yum update, which merely amounts to typing yum update and pressing enter.

Revitalize non-corporate interest (0, Redundant)

ScrewMaster (602015) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732950)

Too late ... they had a stock of goodwill a mile wide but they threw it away. Customer loyalty (really, any loyalty) is earned, and accrues over time. Can Red Hat get it back? Possibly ... but it will take a significant effort and they will really have to work to build up any sense of trust on the part of the "non corporate" parties out there. Nobody likes being abandoned, particularly after exhibiting brand loyalty not unlike that which Apple receives (of course, Apple has a long history of dumping on loyal customers, but I guess Apple users have short memories.) We'll see, but it's gonna take time.

Running RH (0, Redundant)

Dorsai65 (804760) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732959)

I started out running Redhat - but when they dropped us Real People(tm) in favor of their Enterprise users, I decided I didn't want any part of them OR their distro. Switched to Suse, and been happy for the last couple of years; I'm not about to switch back just because they finally realized they pi55ed off a bunch of their user base and want (need?) them back again.

Redhat lost opensource developer support... (4, Interesting)

poopie (35416) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732969)

Did redhat go after $ in the enterprise and lose sight of Linux developers? I'd say yes.

They co-opted the fedora project,gave it ver little resources and virtually *NO* promotion, and tried to downplay it's even existence to all the corporate customers that they are pitching yearly per-server RHN contracts to.

People who had used SuSE before went back and tried SuSE and discovered that SuSE had newer software versions than Redhat

People who might have thought that Debian was only for masochists discovered Ubuntu [ubuntulinux.org] and decided it was fast, easy, and didn't become "legacy" in 12 months

People who wanted more updated packages and hated breaking RPM dependencies and like to occasionally build things from source or optomize their packages found Gentoo [gentoo.org] and decided that rebuilding their entire OS could be fun, easy, and that their OS didn't need to become Legacy in 12 months.

Personally, I think that Gentoo is probably the purest Linux distribution, and that if you want the stability of a tried and true distribution that Ubuntu is the best Debian I've seen.

More developers have shifted away from Redhat, and they in turn have been influencing many other people's choice of distribution, and ultimately they are losing mindshare.

I think Redhat has finally realized that they *need* those developers and they're now doing a strange dance to try to pump up Fedora enough to excite the development community, but not enough to dissuade corpoprate customers for paying them for access to patches for RHEL.

"Hey everyone (except corporate customers), look Fedora's great!"

"Hey everyone (except developers), Fedora's unstable and unsupported, use RHEL!"

Late Adopter/Former Supporter (2, Insightful)

baddogatl (164976) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732971)

Before Red Hat 6.0, I thought it was a mess. When 6.2 was released, I migrated all of my systems to it. By the time Red Hat 9 was released, I had all of my systems under Red Hat Network contracts.

I felt alienated by their decisions; stability is important to me, but as our customers demand more features we need the updates to the kernels, the newer software packages, the newest hardware support. I was willing to pay to stay on the cutting edge, but unwilling to pay for stagnation.

I'm currently happy with Fedora Core 3 and am glad that Red Hat is supporting that project. They originally had to earn my support and respect and I hope I can trust them with that again in the future.

Really? (5, Informative)

eno2001 (527078) | more than 9 years ago | (#11732999)

I hadn't noticed anything other than BETTER quality from the Fedora project compared to previous RedHat offerings. I am using a mix of RedHat 9 and Fedora Core 3 at home and at work and from where I stand FC3 is a HUGE jump past RH9. The hardware support is better, the apps are even better integrated than before and the functionality overall is extermely impressive. Examples:

1. The changes to Nautilus have made file management and access much easier with many conveniences like thumbnails, media previews, photo gallery views, etc... 2. The integration of remote mounts (SMB [ie. Windows file shares], FTP, SSH) is spectacular
3. USB device support is nearly flawless. I plugged in my brand new Epson Stylus R300 and just started printing. I plugged in a USB flash drive and it mounted and placed an icon on the desktop. I plugged in my Sony Mavica CD digital camera and it asked me about importing images into a gallery. The gallery also displayed all the inluded EXIF information. Just beautiful.
4. GIMP 2.0 takes some getting used to, but it looks promising (Just for the record I love GIMP 1.x)
5. LVM2 with kernel support at boot so that you no longer have to deal with the archaic notion of partitions
6. And of course... much improved performance on the same hardware. I have been using the same P4 at work for the past three years. RH9 was OK on it but admittedly a little slow with the default packages. I recompiled nearly everything and got performance more in line with Windows XP on the same box. But... with FC3, the same box didn't need any of the custom compiles and tweaks the RH9 did to get even better performance

Overall, I'd say Fedora has been a rousing success. I RedHat says they plan to put more effort into it, this can only mean greater things.
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