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Woz, Others Ask Apple To Go Easy On Tiger Leak

timothy posted more than 9 years ago | from the pr-opportunity-if-ever-one-was dept.

The Courts 521

tabkey12 writes "Drunkenbatman posts this impressive article with a pointed quote from Apple co-creator Steve Wozniak and 24 others from all parts of the Apple Software world, criticising Apple's stance against a 23-year-old pre-med student, desicanuk, who distributed a pre-release Tiger build over a popular Mac Bittorrent site. There's also an interview with desicanuk on drunkenbatman's site. (Original Slashdot article here.)"

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1st (-1, Offtopic)

fmerenda (78242) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743385)

baby

Re:1st (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743479)

I'm a 18-year old guy. In the last month, I've sucked the dicks of a dozen or so guys. But I have never sucked the same guy twice.

That doesn't make me gay, right?

Credibility (5, Funny)

Odo (109839) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743386)

Posted by "Drunkenbatman". On "drunkenblog.com". Defending "desicanuk". Quotes people from "Delicious Monster", "DaringFireball" and "Unsanity". Submitted to "slashdot.org" by "tabkey12".

Two questions:

  1. How do we expect to be taken seriously with pseudonyms like this?
  2. How many /.ers didn't even blink while reading the intro?
Of course look who's talking; Odo, a fictional shapeshifter... <sigh>

Re:Credibility (4, Funny)

Stephen Williams (23750) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743418)

Are you kidding? "Drunkenbatman" will look awesome on the guy's future Pulitzer Prize.

-Stephen

Re:Credibility (4, Informative)

HeghmoH (13204) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743487)

I don't know about all of them, but Unsanity is one of the most well-known Mac software companies out there. Delicious Monster is pretty well-known too, although their fame is rather recent and it remains to be seen if it'll last. People must take names like these pretty seriously, because the companies seem to be doing reasonably well.

Re:Credibility (5, Insightful)

Speare (84249) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743627)

All this about letters from "Wozniak" to a company named "Apple."

Credibility requires context. Someone unfamiliar with any of those proper nouns will have zero context, so there will be zero credibility. Add context, and things start to fall into place. Not every business needs to have a respectable name like "Federated Usable Computational Devices, Inc." and not every person must be a Smith or a Jones.

Re:Credibility (1)

ceeam (39911) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743757)

Oh, and the other side is company named _Apple_ and the issue about the computer OS named _Tiger_ (not DrunkenTiger, though). And I heard that in early XXI century they will have a hugest hardball company named (da-dumm!) MicroSoft!!!

Re:Credibility (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743773)

2. How many /.ers didn't even blink while reading the intro?


What? You mean we're supposed to read the whole thing?

Woz is too much of an idealist (4, Insightful)

prodangle (552537) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743391)

As much as I admire Woz's idealism, I wouldn't take business advice from him!

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743433)

So he is down to earth rather than a hard-nosed corporate or megalomaniac idealist, but would Woz have done what Jobs did with NeXT and ended it up in the soup?

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743525)

That is a sad commentary on business in the USA. Heaven forbid we expect ideals from our business leaders.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743546)

As much as I admire Woz's idealism, I wouldn't take business advice from him!

Let's see .. Wozniack is a billionaire .. and you .. hmm?

Let me see here .. remind me again why I should take advice from you over someone who's made billions of dollars? And before you blab something about how it was all Steve Jobs business acumen .. well if Woz was such a business dope he would have told Steve off and stayed in his job at HP instead of taking a mad risk and forming Apple with nearly nothing.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist (3, Informative)

Nexum (516661) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743695)

Woz is not a billionaire.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743632)

you are right.

we should crush this insolence. Prove to the minions that we are as powerful and rule with an iron fist exactly as our enemies to the west.

He should be made into a public example. He posted software, the most henius crime of all.

Death by public impalement! I DEMAND DEATH by public impalement!

He did not commit a lesser crime like murder, rape ,battery or robbery.

he dared to violate a sacred EULA!

he must DIE for his heresy!

all you Copyright protectors can suck by cock. I flip you off and violate your copyright just to spite you.

Re:Woz is too much of an idealist (4, Interesting)

gl4ss (559668) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743760)

yes, but that's not the point, the point is that if you continue doing this kind of shit then people will see straight through your companys intentions and when your company is largely dependandt on very zealous fans that buy anything you make because it is from you it's a bad thing to piss them off.

and then you have a company kick started on money made from making (_black_ hat)hacking tools for the phone system suing some kid that just posts things that people email to him- obviously if they had some values once about freedom to do things they don't have them now.

like, hello, wtf? if that's not spineless from a company that's trying to act 'better' than the competition then what is..

Intellectual Property (5, Insightful)

uq1 (59540) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743403)

This is intellectual property of Apple, and should be treated as such.

He pirated software, he should pay the penalty.

No sympathy here.

Re:Intellectual Property (2, Insightful)

know1 (854868) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743414)

it's not the fact that he pirated software, lot's of people do that (not that i'm defending it, before the flames begin) it's more the breaking of confidentiality with his employer that should be the issue here

Re:Intellectual Property (3, Informative)

Paradise Pete (33184) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743562)

it's more the breaking of confidentiality with his employer that should be the issue here

He doesn't work for Apple. He's a medical student.

Re:Intellectual Property (3, Insightful)

mirko (198274) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743426)

He distributed non-ready software : in other words, his Tiger distro is already obsolete.
I suggest the following :
  1. Apple folks leave him alone and eventually revoke his ADC [apple.com] membership
  2. They begin a reward scheme, randomly offering thingies (.Mac, softs... : things that don't have much material value -software is easily reproductible- but that people will like to show off) to some clients so that it will incitate others to buy more stuff from them
  3. They get a nicer image
  4. They profit

Re:Intellectual Property (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743650)

This is exatly the problem.

People get a untrue view of Tiger becasue of his unlawful acts. They associate Tiger with a beta and decide to not buy it.

Apple looses.

penalty? (4, Insightful)

essreenim (647659) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743450)

he should pay the penalty...of death?

That's just it. It's a big public taboo over something which is equivalent to shop lifting. Sigh, People always fear what they don't understand!

The 83 year old dead file swapper, Gertrude, [slashdot.org] would have been laughing her false teeth out at you all if she was alive..

Re:penalty? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743505)

" It's a big public taboo over something which is equivalent to shop lifting. "

I thought shoplifiting was theft, this is more like "shop duplicating"

Big difference. It didn't hurt anybody and since the product wasn't released you can be sure I wouldn't have bought it. See, absolutly no harm done to Apple.

Or wait, is that only true for music? I keep gettign my justifications for stealing mixed up.

Re:penalty? (2, Funny)

Jim_Callahan (831353) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743766)

On the other hand, he's pre-med. Shoplifting is a bad move when the strength of your career rests on your ability to keep oaths about confidentiality and professionalism.

He should probably change his major. Literature, perhaps. Lots of nice jobs that require no integrity that a lit major can get.

Re:Intellectual Property (2, Insightful)

jonathanduty (541508) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743470)

I agree except that his fault isn't that he pirated software, he gave away something that wasn't his and he broke several legal agreements I'm sure he had with Apple. It was a very stupid move on his part and I'm sure he will pay legally and professionally. Would you ever hire someone with that on his record?

Re:Intellectual Property (-1, Flamebait)

tiger_omega (704487) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743565)

And therefore they should have their lives ruined both finicially and professionally because they did something that about 200 millon other people have done around the world. I personally think that the US should pass a law that says any breach of intellectual property law should see the defendant found guility immediately on accusation. They should then be hung, drawn and quartered. It's painful but doesn't take so long.

But instead of making an example of a single person or group of people they should prosecute the entire population. The end result if successful would be civil war or maybe a third world war. But oh well at least it will remove this vermon that is called the human race from this planet.

Re:Intellectual Property (4, Insightful)

clarkcox3 (194009) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743776)

The problem isn't that he pirated software--Everyone and their mom does that. The problem is that he broke a contract. Period.

He signed something that says "I will not do that"; Then he did "that". It doesn't matter whether "that" is distributing software, selling stock, or hopping on one foot through a crowded subway. He agreed that he wouldn't do it.

In other news (0, Offtopic)

gowen (141411) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743404)

OS X 10.3.8 was released to the internet, but most discerning Apple users sent it straight back.

Re:In other news (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743542)

You got an off-topic, but as a stung user of 10.3.8 you'd get a +1 funny from me...

What's his defense? (5, Insightful)

bigtallmofo (695287) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743408)

From everything that I've read his defense to Apple's charge of him posting the pre-release software is that he's a kid, please feel sorry for him.

I feel sympathy for him too, but how do you stop leaks if not punish the people that perpetrate the leaks?

Re:What's his defense? (5, Interesting)

gowen (141411) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743425)

he's a kid, please feel sorry for him.
He's 23, for God's sake. He's not a kid, he's an adult.

And given that he *must* have been aware of the
i) illegality
ii) traceability
of his leaks, he's a particularly stupid adult.

Spare your sympathy for people who deserve it.

Re:What's his defense? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743476)

Do read the interview [drunkenblog.com] - unless he's lying through his teeth, he was naive and actually didn't really understand what he was doing

Re:What's his defense? (1)

Refrag (145266) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743523)

He was lying through his teeth.

Re:What's his defense? (2, Insightful)

XMyth (266414) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743630)

Even if he was telling the truth, he still leaked it. Only to "5 or 6" people that he *didn't know* and thought that they wouldn't themselves leak it.

Very stupid if you ask me.

Re:What's his defense? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743528)

Maybe he shouldn't be doing things he doesn't understand...

"Sorry officer, but I don't really know how to drive a car....honest!"

Re:What's his defense? (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743533)

Yes he did. He admits he created a Torrent and made the file available on an "invite only" network. He very clearly knew what he was doing. He even asked for help in creating the Torrent because he had never done it before; but it clearly shows he fully intended to distribute the file and knew that others would download it.

Re:What's his defense? (1)

Nodar (821035) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743611)

i couldn't even get through reading that damn interview because every question resulted in a whiney ass "It's not my fault" response.

Re:What's his defense? (5, Insightful)

nordicfrost (118437) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743593)

I have read the interview, and I have a bad feeling about this guy. He claims that he was unaware of any uploading in BitTorrent, how can you be unaware of it? The whole systems is based upon the fact that as soon as you download, you become an uploader! FTA: "I made the foolish assumption that since I wasn't a developer, and I had a copy that it would be ok if I shared it with 5 or 6 fellow mac fanatics."

Well, if you grasp the concept of illegal software distribution (and I'm not agreeing to the concept, just retelling it as it actually is), he has just admitted the "crime". You are dealing with the law and a private company eager to protect its secrets. I suggest you buy a cluestick and hit yourself over the head with it until you realise it is illegal.

Now, unless he pleads insanity; not understanding what you are doing when you are doing a crime is no an excuse. If I spit chewing gum on the streets of Singapore do you think they'll be lenient on me just because I didn't know it was a crime? Nope.

When I went to law school (relax, I'm not a lawyer) a professor had a saying about my Scandinavian country: "People here seem to think they are born with an insurance for screw-ups. As soon as they do something stupid, they expect sympathy and help from the government." The same can be applied to Desicanuk, you screwed up, broke a contract and actually did a crime. Now fess up and be a man.

FTA: "When I signed up for the free ADC account, I didn't read the agreement. I suppose a lot of us don't read word for word every thing you agree to." Yeah, well you should have. It is retarded to sign something without reading and understanding it. EULAs, which I hate with a passion, are a slightly different thing, but the contract with ADC is something you really should read. An unread contract will almost always bite you in the ass, tell it to my GF who signed a contract with a private school and now has paid thousands of dollars because she signed up for the military while having committed to the contract.

You live, you learn.

Re:What's his defense? (3, Insightful)

Maestro4k (707634) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743567)

Spare your sympathy for people who deserve it.
  • So yes, he doesn't terribly deserve sympathy, but.... What are the penalties being sought? Is Apple going after the maximum allowed by law for this? If so then the penalites far outweight the actual crime. While I don't feel sorry for him (yes, he's old enough to know better and should have known better), I don't think it's right to send someone into financial ruin for the rest of their natural lifes over one fuck up.
  • Penalize him fairly to punish him for his crime, but leave him a chance in hell to come back from all this and be a productive member of society. If he's going to spend the rest of his life flipping burgers to pay off fines, he'll be completely useless to society, and it wouldn't surprise me if he ended up committing suicide.

    So yeah, he's an idiot, but does the punishment truly fit the crime? Is this a case where he could have broken into Apple's HQ, slaughtered the entire Tiger OS team with a hatchet and gotten a lighter sentence? (Note I have no clue what the punishment will be, damn work blocks all blog sites.)

Re:What's his defense? (2, Insightful)

DenDave (700621) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743609)

Yep, the kid made a mistake. He shouldn't have gotten confused by Apple's Open Source PsychoBabble.. Don't get me wrong, I love my mac, worship the product, though, not the company. Now he can learn from his mistake and download Linux.

Re:What's his defense? (1)

KyleCordes (10679) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743619)

Most likely, assuming they win, he'd declare bankruptcy, give up most of his (likely very few, if he is as "kid"-list as other seem to say) assets, and thus pay only a tiny slice of whatever amount they win. This would be a major setback, but unfortunately not all that uncommon of one.

That IS a good reason (1)

scenestar (828656) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743617)

A teen's brain is chemically underdevelloped compared to an adult's.

Therefore they perceive things in a different manner and have a hard time asessing rights from wrongs and foreseeing the cosequences of their actions.

There is a reason why teens aren't trialed as an adult (at least not in europe)

Re:That IS a good reason (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743637)

He's not a teen. He's 23.

Re:What's his defense? (1)

Jedi Alec (258881) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743428)

the whole point of the article is that many feel he's been sufficiently scared to death by now and that it's overkill to drag him through litigation hell. That, and the bad PR it's giving Apple...

Re:What's his defense? (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743532)

I'll remember that next time I get a speeding ticket... "Please Officer, don't give me the ticket... I'm really sorry and really scared!". Yeah, that always works. Hey, maybe that defense will work if I ever get get charged with crime that can send me to prison. "Please, Your Honor, I am REALLY scared of federal pound me in the ass prison... don't punish me for committing this crime even though I'm guilty!"

What happens if/when he gets to med school and is caught cheating? "I'm REALLY sorry! I won't do it again and am REALLY scared of getting kicked out of med school!"? What about when/if he becomes a practicing doctor and makes a mistake...? This is not a reasonable defense and it amazes me that people are considering it as acceptable.

The fact remains, he is a 23 year old adult completely responsible for his action. He admitted that he knew what he was doing was wrong, knew there were consequences, and STILL went ahead and did it because it was the cool thing to do and didn;t believe he would get caught. He deserves to be punished just like everyone else who knowingly break the contracts or laws.

Re:What's his defense? (1)

c9 (828271) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743576)

I wouldn't want this guy as my doctor when|if he qualifies.

Re:What's his defense? (1)

miskatonic alumnus (668722) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743601)

Two things:

1) There are several forms of punishment other than financial ruin.

2) Do you honestly believe that punishing people ever stopped anything? It might, just MIGHT, stop the person being punished from repeating the behavior. But murder and rape have been punished for a loooooong time, and there are no indications that these activities will ever cease.

Re:What's his defense? (2, Insightful)

zestyalbino (816462) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743606)

Of course Apple has every right to punish him, but what kind of punishment is fair? Ruining his life seems overzealous.

Apple wasn't hurt financially or otherwise from his actions. That doesn't make what he did okay, but it should be considered when determining the fairness of the punishment they want to dish out.

IMHO it would be much more appropriate for Apple to settle this out of court. They could request some form of monetary compensation (an amount that will stretch the finances but not lead to ruin), then have their marketing department portray desicanuk as an example, with a warning that next time they won't be so compassionate. This keeps the community happy, Apple's good-will thriving and doesn't ruin desicanuk's life.

Greed (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743411)

Apple sues over pre-release of upgrade that consumers are asked to pay for, and people don't agree with the policy? Who'd of thunk it?

Re:Greed (4, Insightful)

profet (263203) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743537)

Apple sues over pre-release of upgrade that consumers are asked to pay for, and people don't agree with the policy? Who'd of thunk it?

Welcome to the real world...

The real problem is that you don't agree with apple's naming conventions.

Call a product Windows 98 and then change it's "upgrade" to Windows Me (please no ME jokes...) and everything is dandy.

Call a product OS X 10.3 and then its "upgrade" OS X 10.4 and people moan and bitch.

The truth of the matter is, $129 ($99 for students) for a new operating system is a steal. If you can't afford it, fine, no reason for you to upgrade. Microsoft will charge you around three times that.

Re:Greed (1)

ozric99 (162412) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743750)

The truth of the matter is, $129 ($99 for students) for a new operating system is a steal. If you can't afford it, fine, no reason for you to upgrade. Microsoft will charge you around three times that.

I don't mean to upset those queued up in the "can I please blow you mr jobs" line but you'd have a point if MS charged for SP2 - it didnt. My only exposure to OSX is troubleshooting the problems my mother has with it, however, how on earth is charging for what are really nothing more than service packs a good thing? The Apple-Worship on here is nothing but astonishing.

Re:Greed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743758)

Microsoft will charge you around three times that.
Apple puts out new versions of MacOS about three times as often too

Re:Greed (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743771)

Of course, if Microsoft were harrassing this guy, Macinistas like yourself would be at Gates' gate with torches and pitchforks.

But since it's Technomessiah Steve, whose company would be long dead and in the ground without this kind of free publicity, acting like the worst stereotype of a corporate goon is "insanely great."

Macinistas are ever-so-tiresome...

bt (2, Insightful)

maharg (182366) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743412)

TFA suggests that bittorrent is at the heart of tiger. Perhaps Apple should look closer to home ?

OT (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743432)

$ strings FTP.EXE | grep Copyright
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 The Regents of the University of California.


I wonder, why do "The Regents" own the rights? Not "The Students" or "The State of California"? Anyone?

Re:OT (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743620)

The regents don't "own" the rights per se, they simply over see them. Since BSD wasn't developed by anyone person, the copyright was assigned to the University of California as a whole. The University of California itself is governed by the Regents, as mandated by the California constitution:

The University of California is governed by The Regents, a 26-member board, as established under Article IX, Section 9 of the California Constitution. The board appoints the President of the University and the principal officers of The Regents: the General Counsel, the Treasurer, and the Secretary. The current Chairman is Gerald Parsky and the Vice Chairman is Richard Blum.

http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/regents/ [university...fornia.edu]

So basically since the copyright is assigned to the school, they are in charge of managing it, and therefore their name appears in the text. You can check out the original 4.4 BSD copyright here:

http://www.au.freebsd.org/copyright/license.html [freebsd.org]





Stallman was right (0, Flamebait)

obender (546976) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743445)

I think this proves once again that non-free commodity software is evil.

Re:Stallman was right (1)

j0e_average (611151) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743491)

My thoughts exactly.....with the GPL, I never have to worry about this sort of thing.

The young man is clearly in the "wrong" here. Chalk it up to the foolishness of youth.

Re:Stallman was right (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743496)

I think this proves once again that non-free commodity software is evil.

Yes, thankfully free software people don't go threatening lawsuits against people who use, say, their GPL software in ways against the license... ...oh hang on, yes they do.

No difference.

Re:Stallman was right (0)

CmdrGravy (645153) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743514)

Of course they do but the point is that if this was a GPL'd piece of software there would have been problem with the guy distributing it in this way and he would not have broken any of the conditions of the licence which would mean he would not now be in any trouble.

Re:Stallman was right (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743553)

> Of course they do but the point is that if this was a GPL'd
> piece of software there would have been problem with the guy
> distributing it in this way

And if it rained liquid iron from the sky we'd all be burned. We aren't in a fantasy world where Tiger is a piece of GPL software.

Tiger is licensed to people under licenses decided upon by Apple. People break that license and Apple gets upset. Many slashdotters seem to think Apple shouldn't, and should just turn a blind eye to it.

If they think that, then they should also not get upset when a company breaks the license terms of GPL software, ie by incorporating GPL code into a proprietary closed source app.

So why is it OK to break Apple's license and go all "awwww Apple should turn a blind eye" when if the GPL was being broken by the same guy, most of slashdot would call for his lynching, be posting his home phone number, address, contact details, criminal records or what have you, online.

Re:Stallman was right (1)

maharg (182366) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743716)

easy, tiger ;o)

Apple's Dilema (1, Interesting)

ites (600337) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743454)

If this was software piracy there'd be a clear case for damages. If I spent a huge amount on developing a new product aimed at commercial resale and some dude released it onto the net, I'd sue him too.

But Apple do not really sell software at all. They sell hardware, and they sell fashion. What are the real damages from such an act? Not very significant. Apple users tend to pay for their software because otherwise it's not worth having.

The publicity alone - Apple software being so valuable that someone is prepared to go to jail in order to leak it - is worth a lot.

They should probably do a deal with the guy: hire him for a pittance where he can put his notoriety to use helping Apple.

Re:Apple's Dilema (5, Insightful)

qwertphobia (825473) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743498)

But Apple do not really sell software at all.

Take a look at Apple's software page [apple.com] and tell me how many applications you see there. Most of these are not provided for free, and some [apple.com] are [apple.com] pretty [apple.com] expensive [apple.com] .

Re:Apple's Dilema (5, Insightful)

rebeka thomas (673264) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743515)

> But Apple do not really sell software at all. They sell hardware,
> and they sell fashion

Awesome. Since Microsoft do not really sell hardware at all - they sell software... It must be OK for me to just go take a Microsoft Intellimouse, and a Microsoft keyboard.

Cool.

Re:Apple's Dilema (0, Redundant)

VanillaCoke420 (662576) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743596)

They don't sell hardware? Didn't feel like it last time I tried to pick up an Intellimouse - I had to pay for it! Weird! I thought they were giving them out for free.

Re:Apple's Dilema (1)

DelawareBoy (757170) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743521)

Apple does sell software. Try going into an Apple store, taking a copy of the OS and walking out the door without paying for it. I think you'll end up in trouble. Do you really think you're only paying for the CD-Rom?

Re:Apple's Dilema (1)

FirienFirien (857374) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743549)

If this was software piracy

Of course it's software piracy. We have software (tiger) that costs money ($500 now, less later - free with new computers from its time of release, but still costs for those who upgrade their systems from panther) which is being pirated (bittorrent).

Just because it's not one of the "biggest" income streams for Apple doesn't mean that it's legal to take that income stream away.

Apple put money in to develop this program, and free distribution of the program means their profits are reduced. That's piracy.

Re:Apple's Dilema (5, Informative)

1000101 (584896) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743556)

"But Apple do not really sell software at all..

What? Apple had $213 million in 1Q05 [apple.com] in software sales, and estimates $1 billion [macnn.com] in software revenues for this year. And you think Apple doesn't really sell software??

I stand corrected... (1)

ites (600337) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743566)

OK, OK, so Apple definitely sell software. I must have been asleep when I wrote the opposite.

There's no debate. I like Apple as much as the rest of you (and my AAPL shares justify my faith in the company).

String the farker up by the nuts.

Re:Apple's Dilema (4, Insightful)

kaleco (801384) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743585)

I agree with you about it not damaging software sales, but what they're really worried about is people trying a buggy, unfinished version of Tiger and getting put off by it. They don't want their unfinished code getting into the hands of the public -no matter how unjust, some animosity from buggy code could develop which may affect the brand perception Apple rely on.

Apple's Strategic Options (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743459)

They could just not distribute any beta versions at all. Just make them the point zero release and charge for them.

Or, they could just leave lot's of bugs in the beta releases so they'd essentially be worthless even free.

You have to bear in mind that Apple is trying to make money of OS/X. If you agree with that then this particular action isn't an issue. If you don't agree then this action is a moot point and you're pretty silly even arguing about it instead of whether Apple should charge for OS/X.

Pre-Med (4, Insightful)

Refrag (145266) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743463)

I personally don't want a doctor with this sort of ethics to do anything to me in the future. I hope Apple sues him into oblivion.

Re:Pre-Med (0)

Lussarn (105276) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743538)

I'm sure your current doctor has never given away a copyrighted computer program to someone. I'm sure nobody else you know have done that either. Are you living in a deep forest or something.

Actually... (1)

Dr. q00p (714993) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743552)

...I agree. A M.D. that is both ignorant and sloppy. Luckily we've never seen that before...

Re:Pre-Med (1)

Jim_Callahan (831353) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743698)

Screw his ethics. He posted a piece of software illegally on a highly traceable, public medium. I'm more worried about his competence.

Nausea: The Great Equaliser? (4, Insightful)

Willeh (768540) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743466)

While i don't agree with Apple's too strong stance on this (if it was an RTM copy of Tiger it would be different), BUT the portrait being painted of him as a samaritan made me very nauseous. I doubt volunteers at hospitals are exempt of NDA's, copyrights and other lala fairytales dreamed up by our corporate friends.

Bottom line: he should have known better, but Apple shouldn't be giving themselves bad press by continuing. They probably won't now after outcries like this, preferring to show some teeth to discourage potential "innocent" uploaders leaking more stuff, then back off to act as a "Benevolent" corporate entity. Maybe Steve Jobs would do some p.r. by volunteering at the same place as mr. Gentleman Pirate?

Re:Nausea: The Great Equaliser? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743587)

Exactly! This potential future doctor will be dealing with patients' confidential medical records. Would you want someone who has already knowingly broken a confidentiality agreement to have access to your medical records? I know I wouldn't.

Undisclosed Sum (5, Interesting)

wren337 (182018) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743484)


This would be a great place to see them settle for an "undisclosed sum" (like a dollar), on condition that neither party discuss the matter further. Everyone wins; Apple doesn't publicly "back down", and the guy gets his life back.

Or they could grind his bones to make their bread, whatever. I don't know him.

who cares (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743489)

it's just some puppy do0de sharing his warez. He got caught and made an example of. tough shit, better luck next time

no story here

Re:who cares (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743624)

So you don't think that it's wrong to 'make an example' of someone then? tell me, how would you like it? You deserve fair punishment, not excess punishment to try and deter others - this is still a person we're talking about.

Nah - Let the case continue (2, Funny)

the_Bionic_lemming (446569) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743490)

I say Jobs should take this to court.

It'll give me lots of jabs to toss at a guy I work with who is as firmly entrenched as a Mac dude as I am a PC dude.

Heck, I hear about it when Gates and Microsoft do stupid stuff , so why not give me some more ammunition as Jobs gets laughed out of court? It's got all the delicious points - A kid running a web site sued out of existance over disclosing something that ultimately proved to be a mountain out of a molehill. :)

Re:Nah - Let the case continue (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743520)

This is about someone that made available Apple copyrighted software on Bittorrent. This is clearly illegal and should be punished.

Not the legal cases against the sites that released information early. Apple have stopped these anyway, or put them on hold until everybody has calmed down.

Re:Nah - Let the case continue (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743727)

I say Jobs should take this to court.

Agreed 100%. Watching every single one of the sycophantic MacFucks indulging in such perfectly synchronised GroupThink in defence of their beloved corporation is absolutely priceless.

Keep it up guys! That multi billion Dollar company sure does need your help. Maybe they'll give you all free dual G5s as a token of thanks. Or maybe they couldn't give a flying fuck. Which d'ya think's more likely?

"Think Different" indeed.

The Woz (0, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743506)

I think Steve Wozniak is a genuinely good man. Too bad he's not in charge.

I don't think Apple is a good company. If Apple were a market leader, advances in PC technology would come to a grinding halt. They are far and away the most predatory company in the market.

The only thing Mac has going is it's fanbase. If they start making news for prosecuting their fans they will alienate the last 3% of the market willing to put up with them.

Remember Apple going after the other kid for leaking "trade secrets"? I think we're beginning to see a trend.

Re:The Woz (1)

scenestar (828656) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743647)

Steve wozniak looks at this case from the oldskool hacker perspective. He didnt start for profit but for fun.

His hobby however turened into a billion dollar company and A company's attitude towards the release of Alpha stage software is different then that of an 80's hacker

Timothy Hatcher, lead developer of Colloquy: (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743507)

"For Apple to start sinking to this level is very troubling to me (with the recent lawsuit against the rumor-mills as well). Growing up with Apple products I have always had pride to be an Apple user.
Actions like this have made me wonder really who is running things, Steve Jobs or bloodthirsty lawyers. It's painful to watch a company grow up like this. From the final days of Woz up until now it has been a bumpy ride."

This sums up my feelings about Apple and the course they are taking pretty well. What has become of this great company that was different and likable?

Small Fries (3, Insightful)

GR1NCH (671035) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743513)

Honestly, I think the whole deal is bullshit. Its just the big exec's lashing out at small fries because they can't get their hands on the big fish. Guess what? The real pirates out there aren't scared by you suing a college student that knows nothing about computers and had to have someone teach him how to seed a file. In fact they probably feel safer knowing that you are wasting your time suing this kid instead of them.

Prerelease (1)

cyberfunk2 (656339) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743526)

I think Tiger-pre-release should be made available to ALL ADC members (ADC signup is free). Then you'd still have everyone under the NDA, and no one who didnt want it or wasnt qualified to mess with it would get burned by a partially developed OS.

I mean, sure I see the point of making people pay for the final version. But for the betas, it seems like the more qualified testers they have the better. Besides, not all developers can afford full ADC memberships with all those software dl keys, they're freaking expensive !

Re:Prerelease (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743572)

Sounds like you don't really know much about the software seeding in the Premium ADC accounts, bub.

Here's a hint: If you take the last posted build of an OS before the retail version, you have the retail version. Software Update works on it. Apps install and work on it.

Millions of Mac users would sign up and download Tiger build 8F61 (or whatever the hell the build number is) and Apple wouldn't make nearly as high of a return on their product, /and/ they'd be paying for the bandwidth to give it away.

(This was posted from a machine using the last posted build of Panther, updated all the way to 10.3.8.)

Re:Prerelease (1)

badfish99 (826052) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743714)

If you know where to look, it's easy to find "pirated" copies of any OS you like. Panther, Windows XP, RHEL,... it's all there.

But it doesn't stop people from buying software from Apple, or Microsoft, does it? So how is this hurting Apple, any more than free music downloads are hurting the RIAA?

Surnames. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743527)

Is it asking too much to ask to write 'Desicanuk' beginning with a capital letter? After all, it is a name.

bleh (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743541)

Why do you expect any less from apple?

apple is a corporation
google is a corporation
ibm is a corporation
novel is a corporation
amd is a corporation
intel is a corporation
nvidia and ATI are corporations

why do people even bother to be "fan bois" for these legal entities who's sole purpose is to get more profit for their shareholders? How can you be a fan boy of that?

It's pure fking bs, the sooner they all go flaming down to hell the better.

Long live debian, long live gentoo, long live the BSDs... long live people getting together and doing shit without wearing some corporate logo like some fucking first-year uni marketing rep organised beer party.

God some people are dumb.

summary... (5, Insightful)

constantnormal (512494) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743543)

1) Kid signs up for limited freebee ADC membership, knowing that it does not include access to Tiger beta, in order to have "real" developer (who should certainly know better) place a d/l seed in his area. -- mildly unethical.

2) Kid, excited with his "prize", sends it out to his web "buddies" so they can share in the radiant joy. Exceedingly stoopid.

3) A restricted beta of a product Apple intends to make hundreds of millions of $$$ from is released into the wild for free. Entirely predictable.

4) Apple gets justifiably upset, sues all in sight. About all that Apple can do at this point is make an example of them.

5) The Woz feels sorry that the Kid is getting punished for his unthinking brush with Reality, donates $1000 to his defense.

So what can we learn from this?

1) Apple needs to tighten up ability to transfer software assets between classes of ADC members.

2) Kids (or anyone) that act in an unthinking manner can expect to be educated. Think of it as Evolution in Action.

3) People will gawk at a grisly highway accident, whether on concrete or etherial roadways.

Move along folks.

Re:summary... (2, Insightful)

nutshell42 (557890) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743772)

3) A restricted beta of a product Apple intends to make hundreds of millions of $$$ from is released into the wild for free. Entirely predictable

And it doesn't affect their bottomline a bit. Come on it's a *beta* for a reason and as soon as they start shipping Tiger, shipping millions of *rippable* CDs I might add, you're gonna find ISOs of the release version on every p2p net. I really don't see why they're making such a fuss about a leaked beta

Apple fanboys make me sick (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743591)

I just can't take it any more, all those Apple fanboys on /. make me sick. Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of things about Apple and they really do make some great products but that doesn't mean that everything is fine and dandy.

Wether they are trying to ruin a 23 year old who released a pre-release of the new OSX to 20 people (OMG! let's kill him), wether they are trying to ruin a 20 year old Apple fanatic, who is running a site posting rumors about Apple, whether they refuse to open their most successfull product in a way that allows to use it with anything other than Apple's own music store, everything is great according to the Apple fanboys here.

I've got news for you, it isn't. Just because Apple does it doesn't make it right, on the contrary, one could argue that one should expect different from a company that claims to be different.

Marketing backfires (0, Flamebait)

LourensV (856614) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743625)

You know, this is an example of a bigger problem. Companies have got incredibly good at getting people to want their products. They've got the psychology down. People want, no, need this cell phone, this music, these movies, these clothes, this Tiger OS, and it's all thanks to the marketing departments.

The problem is, the same companies are paying minimum wages, and lobbying for tax cuts, so that these customers don't have the money to pay for these products. Or, as in this specific case, they're simply not yet available. But people need them.

I think most people know that getting stuff illegally is wrong in some sense. But the companies have got their customers hooked and needy, and the customers can't afford the product. And technology has made it very easy to get the product in a way that does not bring the company any profit. There is a lot of psychological pressure on people to get stuff, and the "this is wrong" barrier does not stand up to it. Especially if everyone is doing it.

Companies see it differently. They see people who download their product instead of buying it. They see behaviour they do not want. And just as the Marketing department controls what people do, they've chosen the Legal department to control what people don't do.

In this case, they got these kids all worked up, they were big Mac fans, and they just needed to get a glimpse of Tiger. They couldn't resist Apple's marketing. So they went for it in the only way possible, and now they're getting sued.

Was wat he did illegal? Yes, he did violate the NDA (and didn't read it, which was stupid to boot). Was it wrong? Maybe. But was it his fault?

No way.

The question remains: (4, Funny)

earthbound kid (859282) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743658)

Who is DrunkenBatman?

Some have speculated that DrunkenBatman is DrunkenBruceWayne, a theory I too once believed. However, after I publicly aired my suspicions, he and I were kidnapped by the DrunkenPenguin then saved by DrunkenBatman. So I've seen DrunkenBruceWayne and DrunkenBatman, together. ...However, I should note, where was DrunkenRobin during all this? Just hanging around the DrunkenBatcave? We can only drunkenly speculate, I guess.

NDA and Opensource BSD License. (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11743721)

Just how can a NDA restrict the redistribution of an opensource based OS?

If it's 50% based on BSD software does this mean they can only sue for 50% of damages?

If I was Apple (2, Interesting)

FidelCatsro (861135) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743722)

And if tiger was a bit of music or art or something i was working on . Then some guy(23 is not a kid , I'm 23 I stopped being a kid a long time ago) I was showing it to , decided to make a copy of the work and hand it out. I imagine i would be rather pissed off , and probably want to punch the guy, so from this i can understand the actions of apple up to this point.
But that would be it , I doubt he will do it again .He has suffered his virtual punch from Apple,Although he comes out with the "I'm so Naive" Which would probably make me want him to suffer a while longer for coming out with such a load of nonsense .

Now as much as i believe that all software should follow the GNU way , I also respect the rights of developers to decide how they distribute the work they have created.
distributing Commercial software over Bittorent in the USA is not a good idea , its playing with fire and if you're caught you will get burnt.
I do feel sorry for him though

Regarding the interview (4, Insightful)

benja (623818) | more than 9 years ago | (#11743751)

Somewhat off-topic, but it amuses the hell out of me when people call copyright infringement "piracy" but then believe that not all copyright infringement is piracy.

From the interview (one of the admins of the bittorrent tracker speaking):

[T]he tracker isn't built on pirated files. Drivers, service manuals, user guides, and old games which are not available anymore or are from companies which no longer exist. There are videos of recent events and old favorites which you can't buy. I have never seen the tracker without a significant amount of files which aren't pirated.
You see, all of these are copyrighted unless they're around a hundred years old (depending on jurisdiction). Of course distributing them is not copyright infringement ("piracy") if you have permission by the copyright holders, but I highly doubt this site has permission to distribute those service manuals and -- especially -- games.

Just because the company making them is gone doesn't mean there isn't a copyright holder -- there's always some creditor happy to pick them up. They may not sell the game any more (at least currently), but that matters zilch. They may not be suing you because they don't have enough to gain from it, but that doesn't mean they can't and it doesn't mean that this isn't copyright infringement.

Yes, it sucks. You see, that's one reason why some people think copyright law sucks. Especially with the super-long copyright terms of today.

I find people annoying who copy old proprietary games, don't feel that they're doing anything wrong, and then go, "I totally respect copyright law! I would never pirate anything!" If you think copyright is so cool, how come you are so happy to bend it when it's inconvenient?

(NB. I admit that I haven't actually checked the site; the games there may yet be under license terms that permit re-distribution after the company making them has folded. If so, sorry of associating the general rant with this specific case. But I doubt it.)

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