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Red Hat Exec Takes Over Open Source Initiative

Zonk posted more than 9 years ago | from the new-man-under-the-hat dept.

Red Hat Software 144

njcoder writes "CNet reports that Michael Tiemann, vice president of open-source affairs at Linux seller Red Hat and an OSI board member, has taken over from Russell Nelson as president pro tem. 'We thought that Michael would be a better president' Nelson said of the change, declining to share further details. Nelson will remain a board member and active in the group, he said."

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I suppose (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11853958)

this is good news. Red Hat has been instrumental in much of the open source movement but they are very corporate these days. I will be attending a RHEL 4 pitch/SE Linux pitch soon, atypical for Linux.

Re:I suppose (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11854149)

Who cares? "Large Corporation tries to make money off the backs of misguided and unpaid developers shocker" - film at 11.


Let's face it, the Linux trend is over. All the cool kids are using MacOS X and loving the way it "just works", and yet they get the 'leetness' of using a unix derivative.

Re:I suppose (1)

ssbljk (450611) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854204)

I don't think that it has anything with redhat - point is on Michael Tiemann. And I don't what could be changed much, both were board members already.

Credentials? (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11853965)

Does Michael Tiemann have the right trollish credentials? I'm not sure I've ever seen him post to Slashdot at all, let alone start a flamewar.

Re:Credentials? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11854019)

Does Michael Tiemann have the right trollish credentials? I'm not sure I've ever seen him post to Slashdot at all, let alone start a flamewar.

I hear he's a founding member of the GNAA but so far they've refused to confirm it.

Re:Credentials? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11854128)

Tieman was one of the Adequacy [adequacy.org] founders. Or was that Shoeboy?

Re:Credentials? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11854319)

Adequacy was not full of 'trolls' as many people seem to think. It just offered a platform for some very controversial opinions. Too bad they shut it down. I still wonder what happened there. Did AMD sue them?

Re:Credentials? (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11854542)

He does have a Slashdot account [slashdot.org] . He only posted once but he did get in a quick BSD-troll at the end.

w00t (2, Funny)

Nicholas Evans (731773) | more than 9 years ago | (#11853969)

There is a god. This guy was a bad slashdot troll, I'm telling you...

BAD troll? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11854004)

This guy was a bad slashdot troll, I'm telling you...

He's a trolling pro. He gets more bites from a "BSD is dying" or "Stallman drinks the kook aid LOL!" post than you ever will.

Re:w00t (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11854037)

No, I'M a bad troll!

WARNING! NSFW! [disney.com]

PARENT IS NNSFW! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11854388)

Parent is not not safe for work! Beware!

If some taxonomy is required ... (1)

foobsr (693224) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854161)

Trolls [skynet.be]

CC.

Red Hat the new Microsoft of OSS? (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11853970)

"Take over"? I like the sound of that.

After all, Red Hat is the de facto standard of all open source. Intel's compilers, Oracle and everything corporate is designed for it. Good luck installing not to mention running anything like that on other distributions.

Re:Red Hat the new Microsoft of OSS? (5, Insightful)

LnxAddct (679316) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854155)

I'm not sure if that was a compliment or an insult to Red Hat, but regardless, Michael is a good guy with a good head on his shoulders. If you've ever seen his writings or hear him talk you'd know what I mean. Afterall, he did write the first GNU C++ compiler. He recently also did a little video thing for Red Hat magazine showing the benefits of open source. He truly is an innovative and important guy in the community. Congratulations to him. For those who don't know, Red Hat has many individuals like this that are just as influential and important in the OSS world (i.e. Alan Cox), don't let one bad marketing decision make you hate Red Hat. Without them, who knows where we'd be, even OSS programmers have to eat.

Regards,
Steve

P.S. For a little blurb on Michael, read this [redhat.com] .

Re:Red Hat the new Microsoft of OSS? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11855510)

even OSS programmers have to eat.


That's what cafepress is for.

Re:Red Hat the new Microsoft of OSS? (1)

Ulric (531205) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854392)

I've been running Oracle on Slackware since 8.0.5. No problems. Software that comes packaged in RPMs and depends on Red Hat RPMs can be very annoying, for example HP Insight Manager. Spent several frustrating hours trying to install it on Debian the other day.

Re:Red Hat the new Microsoft of OSS? (1)

Compenguin (175952) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854683)

>After all, Red Hat is the de facto standard of all open source. Intel's compilers, Oracle and everything corporate is designed for it. Good luck installing not to mention running anything like that on other distributions.

If it were the defacto standard of all open source like you assert then we'd have problems running all sorts of OSS on anything other than red hat but that is not the case. I may have problems running soem closed source db, or a closed source compiler but that makes redhat teh defacto standerd of linux not of OSS. I'll continue to be happy running an OSS datbase and an OSS compiler on my generic OSS system.

"Open Source" BogoTrademark (2, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11853973)

Russ made some statements on slashdot where he admitted that "Open Source" was not a trademark but for whatever reason was just as good as one and could be defended in court by OSI.

Then there was discussion that the "definition" fo Open Source would be reduced to exclude certain Free Software licences.

For someone in charge of a branding effort all of this seemed a little rash. Perhaps internal dissent is what was going on behind the scenes.

Re:"Open Source" BogoTrademark (2, Interesting)

Ralph Yarro (704772) | more than 9 years ago | (#11853987)

Then there was discussion that the "definition" fo Open Source would be reduced to exclude certain Free Software licences.

To be fair to Russ, that seemed to be part of a general corporatization agenda. The pressure to redefine open source was coming from HP through OSDL. A Red Hat guy running OSI is probably just another step along that road. Not saying that's good or bad, but it's what's happening.

Re:"Open Source" BogoTrademark (4, Insightful)

Russ Nelson (33911) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854481)

A Red Hat guy running OSI

I don't look at it that way at all. It's more like "The creator of g++ is heading OSI".
-russ

Re:"Open Source" BogoTrademark (1)

Ralph Yarro (704772) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854722)

Fair enough. Thanks for sticking around here despite the flaming you get, it is appreciated in some of our saner moments :)

So... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11854866)

...are you still a fucking racist? As a black person, I took issue with what you said about blacks being lazy.

Re:"Open Source" BogoTrademark (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11855606)


One thing that is really important is that he not let his Red Hat position influence his role at OSI. Red Hat competes with Sun in some markets, for example, and Red Hat's CEO has spread FUD about OpenSolaris in interviews, because it is in his interest to do so. As a leader of OSI, Tiemann would have to go beyond the FUD and take the stance that the CDDL is OSI certified, and, therefore, OpenSolaris will be truly open source.
Anything less would ruin the credibility of the OSI.

Better fedora? (1, Insightful)

caryw (131578) | more than 9 years ago | (#11853994)

Redhat alienated much of their loyal userbase with the introduction of Fedora Core. This is a step in the right direction for Redhat to get back to their roots and stop concentrating so hard on their commercial offerings that they leave their grassroots projects underdevloped and insufficient. Short bio. [redhat.com] Interview from a few years ago [linuxdevices.com]
- Cary
--Fairfax Underground [fairfaxunderground.com] : Where Fairfax County comes out to play

Bullshit Open Source Zealots! (0, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11854012)

> This is a step in the right direction for Redhat
> to get back to their roots and stop concentrating
> so hard on their commercial offerings.

How does a company with many employees work if you stop concentrating on the commercial offerings ?

Red Hat stabbed us in the back (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11854055)

It's working for Mandrake and SUSE.

Admit it. Red Hat just got fucking greedy and fucking stabbed the free software community in the back.

Fortunately Fedora is such a piece of shit desktop Linux when compared to Mandrake, Gentoo or SUSE that it will never survive in the long term.

Re:Red Hat stabbed us in the back (5, Insightful)

teg (97890) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854253)

A couple of issues:

  • Red Hat is a major contributor to the open source community, by having enginers on a lot of projects.Bigger than SUSE, Mandrake and Gentoo are absent.
  • Fedora a POS? As far as I'm concerned, it's the best distribution available for me as a developer and a long time (10 years) Linux enthusiast. The major shortcoming is with servers, which I don't want to update or reinstall as often as a desktop/laptops.
  • Contrary to your statement, Red Hat is the one of these offering a free download - Fedora. Downloading something current from the others (for AMD64) is harder/not possible.

Re:Red Hat stabbed us in the back (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11854348)

Fedora good for desktop? Then why does Fedora desktop look like shit even when compared to the default Gentoo desktop?

Re:Red Hat stabbed us in the back (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11855497)

Oh I don't know... maybe Red Hat should try tweaking their CFLAGS a bit and recompiling the entire distro as -O9 -acefonts -greatartwork... just like G3nt00's l33t users.

Re:Red Hat stabbed us in the back (2, Informative)

EngMedic (604629) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854359)

fedora would be great, save for two glaring errors. First, there are multiple, conflicting package repositories -- and you can't mix and match most of them safely. Second, though it's been promised since core 1, it's still not possible to update from core 1 to core 2 with just yum/apt (and likewise for core 2 - core 3), which means you're reinstalling and reconfiguring your OS every 6 months.

Re:Red Hat stabbed us in the back (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11855543)

I upgraded from core 1 to core 2 just by switching apt repositories. Though upgrading from core 2 to core 3 is supposed to be harder since they switched many of the major systems (like to udev).

Gentoo has the best AMD64 support (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11854360)

Gentoo's AMD64 support is the best there is right now. It's free and practically perfect. Mandrake crashes, SUSE can't be downloaded for free and Fedora fucks up my SCSI RAID.

Re:Red Hat stabbed us in the back (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11854441)

Fedora, like the original Red Hat is for Linux newbies. Everyone starts with Fedora/Red Hat and moves on to a better distro when they learn how to use Linux properly.

Re:Red Hat stabbed us in the back (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11854779)

If Fedora is for newbies, then why does its GUI suck?

Maybe it's just because I'm partial for KDE...

Re:Red Hat stabbed us in the back (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11855633)

Err, no. I still use Fedora. I've been using RedHat since RedHat 4.2. Before that, I used Slackware. A lot of people stay on Fedora instead of moving to other distros.

Re:Red Hat stabbed us in the back (1)

m50d (797211) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854769)

Gentoo is a community thing that is hardly employing anyone, but the things they do maintain for themselves are often good and distro-independent-ish. I use gentoo kernels on slackware systems. Suse may not be doing that much but they're now open sourcing all that they do, remember if you're considering the whole company you should look at all the ximian stuff too.

Fedora seems to have lost its focus, it's supposed to be community-oriented but comes out as just looking like red hat's beta that you're testing for them. Not saying it is, bu that's how it appears.

AMD64 is a bit of an arbitrary choice imo. Anyway, SUSE is easy to download for AMD64, yes it doesn't include a few things but they have to leave them out for licensing reasons, it's better than having an entirely separate tree for the freely available version. Mandrake has a few months' delay, again imo better than a completely separate tree. Gentoo is a free download with no problems.

Re:Red Hat stabbed us in the back (1)

WMD_88 (843388) | more than 9 years ago | (#11855098)

Downloading something current from the others (for AMD64) is harder/not possible.

Ubuntu?

Re:Better fedora? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11854062)

Unrelated Point + Random Googled Link != Insightful

Re:Better fedora? (0, Troll)

ajs (35943) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854119)

Red Hat GAINED a much larger loyal user base in releasing Fedora than they EVER had with Red Hat Linux. Let's not try to paint events to match your hurt feelings (presuming that that's why you're upset, I could be wrong).

Re:Better fedora? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11854145)

I don't trust people looking like this [ajs.com] .

Re:Better fedora? (4, Insightful)

bogie (31020) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854326)

" stop concentrating so hard on their commercial offerings "

Their commercial offerings are what allow them to finance Fedora, Gnome, people like Alan Cox, and many other OSS initiatives. Plus they give away the source to that commercial offering.

"they leave their grassroots projects underdevloped and insufficient"

Says you. Fedora from the start has been in many users and reviewers opinions one of the better desktop linux distros available.

People need to get over the "Red Hat owes the community something" bullshit. Yes they moved away from the $79 one-size-fits-all model that everyone loved and many miss but they still contine to be a positive force in OSS.

Re:Better fedora? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11854468)

Fedora from the start has been in many users and reviewers opinions one of the better desktop linux distros available.

Then why does anyone who knows more than jack shit about Linux use a different distro?

Re:Better fedora? (1)

_Sprocket_ (42527) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854642)

Then why does anyone who knows more than jack shit about Linux use a different distro?

There's plenty of people who didn't use RedHat well before the split in RedHat's offerings and the introduction of the Fedora distro.

Re:Better fedora? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11855577)

I use Fedora Core 2 and Gentoo. I figured Linspire and the like was the "don't know jack shit" distros.

Re:Better fedora? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11855600)

Hello, there. I've been using Linux for ten years. In other words, I was using Linux when you were still playing with your Super Nintendo. I, most assurably, know far more about Linux than you can dream to know. I also use Fedora Core three.

As you were saying?

MOD PARENT UP (1)

Feztaa (633745) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854831)

I've been a happy fedora user since FC1 was released, and never understood why everybody bitches about Red Hat.

Re:Better fedora? (1)

ndtechnologies (814381) | more than 9 years ago | (#11855125)

The sad thing is I really liked Red Hat 8,9 and FC 1,2. I really dislike FC3. Nothing worked properly. I had so many problems with it that I switched to Mandrake 10.1. I really tried to be a loyal Red Hat user, but IMO Fedora Core has become worse with each release, but again that is only my opinion. I'm hoping that FC 4 will be better than 3...maybe I'll switch back if it is.

The beginning of corporate management of OSS? (2, Insightful)

Kip Winger (547075) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854013)

Many non-profit projects out in the world begin as independant projects, but as they grow, are later staffed and controlled by a board and a board chairman all comprised of the powerful ones who bring in profits, the business owners and such, who are the ones capable of further expanding and funding the operation.

For most of the 1990s, OSS was by programmers for programmers (and to an extent their non-programmer friends), but gradually those in the OSS field have been coopted by the business practices of capitalism, removing the pure element of communalism from the way the software is developed.

This only portends to what will happen soon: the sponsors of Open Source now include the large dictatorial corporations of the past, including Sun, Novell, and even big blue IBM, and those corporations will soon partition and control as many of the communal efforts as they can.

Well said, well said! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11854020)

I couldn't have said it better....

Re:The beginning of corporate management of OSS? (2, Insightful)

dragmorp (740278) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854042)

"Dictatorial Corporations of the Past"

That is very ominous sounding of you. A corporation is a collection of people. A corporation requires people to buy their products and services. A community requires people to volunteer and contribute. Everyone in the chain must produce value to continue.

A dictatorship requires guns.

Do you see the difference?

Has the entire world gone mad?

Re:The beginning of corporate management of OSS? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11854072)

Haven't you realized it yet?

Corporatism == fascism == dictatorship. It doesn't matter if it's corporate open source or corporate proprietary code. It's the same ultimate evil.

Re:The beginning of corporate management of OSS? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11854094)

> A dictatorship requires guns

One could argue that an effective dictatorship could be built simply with money. That is unless you are some Randian crakpot, in which case forget it.

Even if the word "dictatorship" is a little strong, there is a valid point there. When "the community" consists of IBM, Novell, and Franz the student, obviously Franz's concerns are not going to carry the same weight as the other guys.

There is still is a very strong mythos that the open source world consists of "Basement Hackers", but the reality now is that most of the important code comes from big corporations, or those being paid by big corporations (eg Linus). [This is somewhat intetional, with corporate contributions being sent in from vanity email addresses to somewhat diguise their true source.] Eventually the myth and the reality will collide.

Re:The beginning of corporate management of OSS? (1)

dragmorp (740278) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854131)

"One could argue that an effective dictatorship could be built simply with money." Go ahead and try. I would love to see what kind of mental acrobatics that would take. Of course... "one" could hypothetically argue anything unconvincingly.

Re:The beginning of corporate management of OSS? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11854169)

No thanks, Mr. Troll. Take it to your journal where nobody will read it.

Re:A dictatorship requires guns. (1)

ShieldW0lf (601553) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854487)

A dictatorship requires guns.

That's what the law is all about. You buy a law, you get the guns to back it up thrown in for free.

Re:The beginning of corporate management of OSS? (5, Insightful)

ajs (35943) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854177)

Oh please, just stop. If you have no appreciation for the history involved, then you're not going to be able to contribute to this in an informed way.

Michael Tiemann is the founder of Cygnus Software (which was bought by Red Hat). If you want his OSS credentials, go to any copy of the GCC source and use grep. He's not heading this group because he's a corporate drone for Red Hat, he's heading this group because he's a better choice than ANY OF US!

Re:The beginning of corporate management of OSS? (-1, Troll)

norwoodites (226775) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854695)

Yes he wrote teh C++ front-end, but almost all of the code he wrote is gone now, rewritten to be better. All of the code he wrote was crap code.

Re:The beginning of corporate management of OSS? (2, Insightful)

Psiren (6145) | more than 9 years ago | (#11855309)

Yes he wrote teh C++ front-end, but almost all of the code he wrote is gone now, rewritten to be better. All of the code he wrote was crap code.

That's entirely irrelavant and a stupid argument (if you can call it that). Presumably he wrote the code because at that point nobody else had. Just because it's since been rewritten does nothing to detract from his original contribution. You could claim that the current code is crap because it will be rewitten at some point in the future, and that too would be a stupid argument.

Not familiar with OSS licenses? (2, Insightful)

highcon (857286) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854290)

If you were, you would realize the potential of anyone to "control" an OSS project. All it takes is work. Evidently these big corporations have a stake and are willing to put in the work to improve this software. That doesn't mean you or I cannot take their improvements and use them however we want, including throwing them out. No one can truly control an OSS project. Their control is tenuous and based on the acceptance of the users of their software. If they screw it up, somebody takes the good bits, starts their own project, and does it right. The users flock to the one they prefer.

Re:The beginning of corporate management of OSS? (1)

einhverfr (238914) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854305)

I understand your fears, but Michael has devoted his life to open source first at Cygnus and later during the good old days when Red Hat before Fedora.

He has been a great proponant and advocate or OSS all this time. I think he is probably one of the best choices for this post and I am comfortable with it.

Re:The beginning of corporate management of OSS? (1)

njcoder (657816) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854408)

There was a lot of talk about cutting down on the number of OSI approved licenses after Sun's CDDL was approved. There was a little talk last year but nothing as big as what's been happening now. Is there any conflict of interest now that an exec of RedHat runs OSI with regards to what OSI stamps as OpenSource and what licenses they decide to trim? There has been a lot of bad mouthing back and forth between Red Hat and Sun lately. Could they use their position to cut out the CDDL?

I agree with you on how open source seems to be changing since the big guys stepped in.

Re:The beginning of corporate management of OSS? (1)

njcoder (657816) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854641)

Interestingly, from a while back, there's this blog by Tiemann [redhat.com] . And this report of the blogwar (Red Hat opens losing propaganda offensive against Sun) [theregister.co.uk] With Sun being one of the biggest contributors to open source, Red Hat being the biggest commercial linux distro, and OSI well... well at least it's not run by esr anymore... it would be nice to see the opensource/sun feuding end.

Gary Winston (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11854024)



Hey he [redhat.com] looks like this guy [decky.cz] .

I Consider that red hat ... (-1, Troll)

GNUALMAFUERTE (697061) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854063)

Is more harmful than, say, Microsoft.
Microsoft creates propietary software, they develop it, they sell it, and you have the choice to use it or not. Red Hat, Also sells propietary software, but they don't develop it. Microsoft is against Free Software, and it fights against us, using it's own weapons. Red Hat, fights against Free Software (developing propietary apps and selling them IS fighting Free Software, and also, they make bad publicity for GNU, since they bash most distributions in favor of their own, they spread FUD about Free Software having no support, etc, very similar to microsoft in that sense).
The difference, is that microsoft has their own bussines, at least. We compete. But redhat, doesn't develop anything, they stole the GNU project, and they put it under a different name. That's it. They also use our name (Free Software and Open Source Software) as a selling point.
So, they compete with Free Software, while they are actually selling Free Software!.
I Think that is unmoral, and worse than what microsoft and others does (because they are actually stealing OUR work, and using OUR name and fame)

Re:I Consider that red hat ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11854151)

Please point me to the clause in the GPL that states you can not sell "Free Software".

Also can you provide links to the places Redhat is bashing other linux distros, or saying that Free Software has no support? Cause I've never seen it.

Re:I Consider that red hat ... (1)

teg (97890) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854275)

Red Hat, Also sells propietary software, but they don't develop it.

This is so far from the truth as you can possibly be: Red Hat is a huge contributor to open software (GNOME, glibc, kernel, gcc and a ton of other things). And they don't sell proprietary software.

Fucking troll! (1)

nlinecomputers (602059) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854280)

You are a fucking troll. Please show me where in the GPL is says you can't sell Free Software? Please show me where RMS has retracted statements saying that you can't sell Free Software? How can you steal a project that is given away for free? How does that stop you from continuing your own development work? And how is RH proprietary? All the source code is downloadable. How do think sanitized versions of RHEL from CentOS arrive? If you have a beef with RH then spell it out. State the real problem or sit down, STFU, and read the damn GPL. This is bullshit covering for a real issue or you are just plain stupid.

Re:Fucking troll! (-1, Troll)

GNUALMAFUERTE (697061) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854478)

You are the one flaming and trolling me, i stated my opinion clearly and respectfully, you, instead, are insulting me.

Red Hat tries to make it as hard as possible for people to get their distro without paying, for example, in their website, there is no download section, yes, you can get the sources, but they don't clearly say so in their webpage, that is misleading, and also is this>

Free 30-day Evaluation Subscription
to Red Hat Enterprise Linux 4

They are not absolutely propietary because the GPL forbids them for being so, but they try to trick people into thinking that Red Hat is actually a propietary, independant Operating System, It's not bad to Sell Free Software, but it's bad to mislead people into thinking that Free Software is actually propietary. This helps microsoft and their 'get the facts' shit ...

I'm talking about the fact that what redhat does is ethically wrong, not about the GPL forbiding it, so please don't mention it again.

Re:Fucking troll! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11855262)

IIRC RHEL etc have some proprietary stuff in them.

However, unless I am mistaken, most of those are included simply because of a lack of a suitable open version.

One only has to look at the open source JRE included with Fedora 3 to see what I am talking about.

I consider you... (5, Insightful)

juhaz (110830) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854411)

an idiot. I've probable been trolled, though. But just in case you're just ignorant beyond belief...

Red Hat, Also sells propietary software, but they don't develop it.

Red Hat does not sell proprietary software. You're accidentally right about them not developing it, though, since RH only develops free software. Plenty of it.

also, they make bad publicity for GNU, since they bash most distributions in favor of their own, they spread FUD about Free Software having no support

Right. Developing lots of free software to make it better creates bad publicity. You'd be hard pressed to find Red Hat spreading any FUD, unlike you, they don't need to. For anyone with more than two brain cells and their eyes open, their position with Ubuntu, for example, is friendly competition. Only animosity with competitors that I can remember was with Sun, and not all that surprisingly, started by Sun. As for support... Red Hat's business model consists of selling support for Free Software, no need to say more.

But redhat, doesn't develop anything

You mean aside from employing top kernel hackers, top gcc hackers and top gnome hackers? RH has also invested heavily on gcj to help us gain a Free Java implementation. I'm sure those people would still contribute whatever scraps of free time they had from they day job to FOSS if they hadn't got a job at RH, now, they have a change to do so fulltime without worrying about their jobs. Not to mention purchasing several companies and releasing their previously proprietary applications for free, what an evil thing to do!

Red Hat's contributions to FOSS are among the greatest of any company, ever, and they continue to do that despite your drivel.

They also use our name (Free Software and Open Source Software) as a selling point.

They have every right in the world to describe their stuff as Free Software, since that's precisely what it is.

I'd also be careful about using forms of word "we" when talking about Free Software, since I happen to think you haven't ever contributed one line of code, or anything else for that matter, in your life. Anyone who had, wouldn't be so ignorant as to spread this kind of baseless FUD. Jumped from Windows last week probably, and now you think you know everything there is to know about Free Software? Well, here's the newsflash: you don't.

Russ has gotten some heat.. (4, Informative)

bhsx (458600) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854071)

I wonder if this petition [petitiononline.com] has anything to do with this decision? For the uninitiated, Russ wrote on his blog (and since removed it [russnelson.com] ) about corporate black culture, in an article titled "Blacks are Lazy."
Here's the google cache of the withdrawn article. [64.233.161.104]

Re:Russ has gotten some heat.. (1)

NaCh0 (6124) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854088)

Rumor has it that Russ is behind the GNAA [gnaa.us] .

Re:Russ has gotten some heat.. (2, Interesting)

js7a (579872) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854133)

Russ himself signed the petition; acording to the petition's author, tomhudson, he emailed to confirm his signature.

Re:Russ has gotten some heat.. (1)

jeffehobbs (419930) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854135)


That article is poorly written with a sensationalist title -- but not inherently rascist. At the base of it, he's advocating equal pay for equal work regardless of race, not calling black people lazy.

~jeff

Re:Russ has gotten some heat.. (2, Informative)

greenrd (47933) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854233)

he's advocating equal pay for equal work regardless of race, not calling black people lazy.

Um, yes he is. You can't spin away the title of the goddamned post.

Re:Russ has gotten some heat.. (2, Insightful)

zerblat (785) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854418)

Not that I agree with Russ's opinions or in any way am sad that he won't be leading the OSI, but if you actually read what he wrote [216.239.59.104] it's clear that he meant the title to be provocative, but not racist as in "black people are lazy because of their genetics".

Of course, it was still a stupid and insensitive title. As a public figure you always have to think about what you say and write and expect people to interpret things the wrong way.

Re:Russ has gotten some heat.. (0)

Matt Perry (793115) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854747)

You can't spin away the title of the goddamned post.
I guess that makes Bow, Nigger [alwaysblack.com] racist too, even though it's been twice linked to in a front page Slashdot article and held up as an example of excellent games journalism. Yes, let's judge on the title rather than the content.

To Russ Nelson's credit he realized that the post wasn't a good idea, pulled it, and then posted a public apology. The man has already admitted that he was wrong. What more do you want?

Re:Russ has gotten some heat.. (1)

curious.corn (167387) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854878)

Please, can you forgive people for being incidentally blunt or do you always expect & pretend sterilized politically correct statements? Listen, the guy worded it a bit backwards, but he's just saying that in a heavily discriminated community only the most determined folks will have "success" while most will drop the towel and seek fulfillment in other aspects of life. Objectively, a middle class, good family (9/10 times, white) male (there's that detail too) really has to try hard to screw his life into becoming a janitor; he's not just brighter, he's priviledged. Fire a campaign for a blunt, but correct and un-racist, statement makes me think it's a pretext.

Re:Russ has gotten some heat.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11854246)

Nelson says Black people are lazy in that they work less hard than whites.

Let's see, there's absolutely no evidence for this conclusion to be found, therefore the entire premises is built on a prejudice. For an "economist", he certainly demonstrates completely shoddy social scientific methodology.

Had he posted "Blacks are stupid blahblahblahblah" it would have been equally racist, but at least he could cite some widely published IQ studies.

It's pretty easy not to come off as a hood-wearing klucker, just don't make blanket statements such as "(Porchmonkeys) are lazy". Only a racist would have posted that article.

Re:Russ has gotten some heat.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11854583)

-1, Troll yourself

I didn't say he was racist... (1)

bhsx (458600) | more than 9 years ago | (#11855202)

I simply laid out the facts to allow people to draw their own conclusions. The fact is, he has been getting a lot of heat about the article. I simply questioned whether the two incidents are possibly related.
No need to be so knee-jerk.

Re:Russ has gotten some heat.. (3, Insightful)

ajs (35943) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854153)

It's an interesting article with a fairly cogent -- if subjective -- thought about socio-economic origins of prejudice... and yet it's said with all the tact of a true geek. Heh.

Well, at least he understood that people were not taking it as intended, and took it down. Quite a few people around here would have left it up, saying, "what's the big deal?"

Re:Russ has gotten some heat.. (2, Interesting)

js7a (579872) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854836)

I think the main problem people had with the essay (other than the inflammitory title) were these two sentences:
Actually, come to think about it, we had about 150 years of black slavery, and it hasn't even been 150 years since the Civil War. It wouldn't surprise me to find that blacks are still taught to value their leisure time more highly than whites.
Not only does this show a lack of understanding of history (slave ships had begun British colony trade at Jamestown by 1620, and were involved with Spanish colonies in North America at least 50 years before that), but the idea that one's value of leisure time is handed down from generation to generation is profoundly anti-individualist and deepl racist on its face.

I've never met Russ, but after reading his blog I get the impression that he is someone I might like to know (and convince to think about what he writes a little while longer before he writes it), but he is far too outspoken to serve as a figurehead for an organization frequently targeted by professional PR flacks (e.g. Microsoft's.) I don't wish him any ill will, but I think he made the right choice here.

Re:Russ has gotten some heat.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11855743)

but the idea that one's value of leisure time is handed down from generation to generation is profoundly anti-individualist and deepl racist on its face.
Uh, how is stating that values are often passed down through the family even beginning to be anti-individualist and racist? Look at yourself, I can guarantee that you have at least some traits of your partents (I'm not talking genetics here).

Re:Russ has gotten some heat.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11854505)

Did you read the google cache that you provided? A hugely important part of that article is saying, in essence, that if you pay black people less for the same work, don't be surprised if they choose to work less. Leisure time becomes more valuable than that work!

It's a pity that something criticizing racism can be seen as racist. I guess it's just easier to jump to conclusions than to think.

Re:Russ has gotten some heat.. (1)

Ed Avis (5917) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854635)

This reminds me a little of Philip Greenspun's memo [slashdot.org] comparing software development to a Nazi concentration camp.

Nelson seems to be saying that if you're paid less, there is less incentive to give up leisure time for work. But the flaw in this argument is that if you have less money you need it more, so you may have to work harder and for longer simply _because_ you are paid less. This also applies to taxation: some argue that high income taxes hurt the economy by reducing the incentive to work, but others retort that if you tax the well-off harder, they will work more to compensate.

Re:Russ has gotten some heat.. (1)

Chmarr (18662) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854842)

And, the flaw in YOUR argument is you're stating that by simply working harder, you'll get paid more.

That might happen over time, through raises and bonuses, etc., but if one percerives one is ALWAYS going to get paid less for the same work, the natural response is to say "fuck it, I'm just going to work as much as my remuneration suggests."

I signed it, too. (3, Interesting)

Russ Nelson (33911) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854796)

For what it's worth, I signed the petition also, and the sponsor withdrew his accusation of racism.
-russ

Hi Russ! (1)

bhsx (458600) | more than 9 years ago | (#11855285)

I'm glad you joined in the conversation. I hope that you noticed that I didn't have anything negative to say, just providing some info and posing a question.
Can you comment on the relation of the two incidents (if there is any)? Have you been getting internal pressures from Bruce and company to stand down? I'm not trying to drag anyone through the mud or anything, I'm honestly just very curious.
By the way, I think the only mistake that was made was taking down the original article. Sometimes you need to shake things up in order to get people to really think about a subject like the one you were attempting to tackle. Censoring yourself after the fact seems like a poor choice to me.

supercliche (1)

MyKarmaSucksEggs (836012) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854073)

In soviet russia, our insensitive clod^H^H^H^H red hat wearing overlords welcome YOU!

This is why... (1)

Spoing (152917) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854136)

I am a fan of Michael Tiemann. [redhat.com]

While focusing on open source and Red Hat's take on it, the main concepts can be used so many places -- OSS or not. Watch it a couple times to really have it sink in; it's deceptively simple though the 'common wisdom' is to discard these ideas when 'reality' shows up (aka resistant managers who have gotten used to the status quo.).

America the failed (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11854146)

The United States is 49th in the world in literacy (the New York Times, Dec. 12, 2004).

The United States ranked 28th out of 40 countries in mathematical literacy (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004).

Twenty percent of Americans think the sun orbits the earth. Seventeen percent believe the earth revolves around the sun once a day (The Week, Jan. 7, 2005).

Our workers are so ignorant and lack so many basic skills that American businesses spend $30 billion a year on remedial training (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004). No wonder they relocate elsewhere!

"The European Union leads the U.S. in...the number of science and engineering graduates; public research and development (R&D) expenditures; and new capital raised" (The European Dream, p.70).

"Europe surpassed the United States in the mid-1990s as the largest producer of scientific literature" (The European Dream, p.70).

"U.S. childhood poverty now ranks 22nd, or second to last, among the developed nations. Only Mexico scores lower" (The European Dream, p.81). Been to Mexico lately? Does it look "developed" to you? Yet it's the only "developed" country to score lower in childhood poverty.

The United States is 41st in the world in infant mortality. Cuba scores higher (NYT, Jan. 12, 2005).

Women are 70 percent more likely to die in childbirth in America than in Europe (NYT, Jan. 12, 2005).

The leading cause of death of pregnant women in this country is murder (CNN, Dec. 14, 2004).

"Of the 20 most developed countries in the world, the U.S. was dead last in the growth rate of total compensation to its workforce in the 1980s.... In the 1990s, the U.S. average compensation growth rate grew only slightly, at an annual rate of about 0.1 percent" (The European Dream, p.39). Yet Americans work longer hours per year than any other industrialized country, and get less vacation time.

"Sixty-one of the 140 biggest companies on the Global Fortune 500 rankings are European, while only 50 are U.S. companies" (The European Dream, p.66). "In a recent survey of the world's 50 best companies, conducted by Global Finance, all but one were European" (The European Dream, p.69).

"Fourteen of the 20 largest commercial banks in the world today are European....

The United States has lost 1.3 million jobs to China in the last decade (CNN, Jan. 12, 2005).

As of last June, the U.S. imported more food than it exported (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004).

"Nearly one out of four Americans [believe] that using violence to get what they want is acceptable" (The European Dream, p.32).

Forty-three percent of Americans think torture is sometimes justified, according to a PEW Poll (Associated Press, Aug. 19, 2004).

"Nearly 900,000 children were abused or neglected in 2002, the last year for which such data are available" (USA Today, Dec. 21, 2004).

Of course, America is still number 1 in some things, such as debt, deficit and delusion.

I knew Michael Tiemann in college (3, Interesting)

MichaelCrawford (610140) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854299)

His brother Bruce was a classman in Ricketts house at caltech. Bruce majored in chemistry, and had an interest in laser dyes. I'd visit Bruce at home during vacations, when their father was a visiting professor at Stanford, and got to know Michael that way.

You could tell early on he was going to go far. He had a microcomputer he had soldered together himself from components, and ran a prolog interpreter on. It was the first I ever saw prolog.

Funny little anecdote, I decided to try out photography after dropping out of Caltech, so Bruce lent me Michael's very expensive Canon A-1 SLR camera. It would accurately meter a thirty second exposure at night.

The photos on this page [geometricvisions.com] of my article Living with Schizoaffective Disorder [geometricvisions.com] were taken with Michael Tiemann's camera.

I've lost touch with them over the years though.

It's about time (1)

KingOfTheNerds (706852) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854451)

It's about time they upgraded Michael to president, he's been in the deal long enough to deserve the promotion and I think it will lend a lot to the open source movement. Since OSI is taking on more work these days they're expanding their board. Only specualtion can tell us who they're going to bring in next, will it be Bob Rose? Hopefully, but we'll see how it plays out. Go Open Source!

G++ bugs (1, Interesting)

norwoodites (226775) | more than 9 years ago | (#11854537)

Really Tiemann needs to fix more G++ bugs which he introduced when he wrote the code. The code has many slow places where he used a crapy O(n^2) algorithm instead of an O(n) one.

Re:G++ bugs (1)

GreatBunzinni (642500) | more than 9 years ago | (#11855349)

If you are so sure about the design errors and what would be the best way to correct them, why are you posting flames on slashdot instead of submitting patches to the g++ project?

Leave Tiemann alone. His contributions may not be the best (at your eyes, at least) but he is contributing *a lot* to the community. Let's praise what he did/does and not bad-mouth his effords.

Re:G++ bugs (1)

norwoodites (226775) | more than 9 years ago | (#11855388)

I do contribute to GCC, look for my name in ChangeLog. I am also a GCC bug master who goes through each and every new bug which is opened so I know where the problems are usually.

And my first comments were supposed to be taken as a joke and not seriously.

Re:G++ bugs (1)

dont_think_twice (731805) | more than 9 years ago | (#11855643)

And my first comments were supposed to be taken as a joke and not seriously.

Reading your first comment, I assumed you were som 14 year old kid just trolling. There was no way to tell from your post that you were joking.

A Red Hat exec in the position? (1)

petrus4 (213815) | more than 9 years ago | (#11855223)

NOT a good idea. Has anyone else here heard of the term "conflict of interests" before?

The OSI IMHO should most certainly NOT be either directly commercial, or allow any commercial entity to use it in order to advance their own cause. I'm not sure how they're meant to avoid that happening if they start putting corporate staff in leadership positions.
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