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GNOME Ignoring its Own Users?

CowboyNeal posted more than 9 years ago | from the get-the-data dept.

GNOME 735

Jonathan writes "Some editorials were posted on the web the last few days about GNOME and its apparent lack of interest on user feedback, especially when GNOME pitches itself to follow a 'users first philosophy' in their press releases. OSNews started with an editorial about market research or lack thereof, Expert-Zone posted another one on how OSS must learn to take responsibility on its great success."

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Don't feed the troll (4, Insightful)

jmorris42 (1458) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914222)

Apparently CowboyNeal still cares what Eugenia thinks, but why the hell should anyone else?

Lets not feed the trolls, ok? The only time I see OSNews is when it gets a mention on /. and it is ALWAYS Eugenia trolling, this time is no exception.

Re:Don't feed the troll (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11914337)

She's an excellent role-model for prospective female IT students...arrogant-but-clueless bitch...oh wait, no, we wan't non-morons in the field, don't we...?

Re:Don't feed the troll (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11914378)

Mod up interesting. Despite what a handful of posters trying to get laid have claimed on the article about women leaving IT, women are utterly shit at using computers. Just like men are shit at ironing and washing clothes.

Re:Don't feed the troll (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11914444)

Uh, my point was not that all women are "shit at using computers"...it was that women like Eugenia (she says she knows everything while obviously knowing nothing) are not a good image for women in IT. There are enough "know it? I invented it!"-types in IT as it is, without encouraging more, female or otherwise.

Re:Don't feed the troll (0, Troll)

unixmaster (573907) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914339)

Now she became a troll because she no longer writes pro Gnome articles?

Re:Don't feed the troll (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11914380)

She's a troll because she writes articles which she knows are factually incorrect in a bid to engender controversy and gain attention. Why isn't she a ./ 'editor'?

Re:Don't feed the troll (-1, Troll)

m50d (797211) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914389)

That's because the trollish articles are the only ones that get posted to slashdot. Really, if you follow the site, you'll find far less trolling than here in general.

Re:Don't feed the troll (1, Troll)

rhavyn (12490) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914498)

The only reason there is less trolling there is because most of the articles are written in unreadably bad english. The only things people can comment on his how they can't understand what the author is trying to say.

LOL GAY NIGGER SHOT JUDEGE IN RAPE TRIAL (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11914224)

go gnaa

Gnome GNU/Sucks anyway (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11914226)

fp

booo... not user unfreindly enough!!!! (5, Funny)

the_2nd_coming (444906) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914234)

I can't feel like a geek if other people can use it!!!

they took the Linux instal away from me... now they are taking GNOME away as well!!!

Re:booo... not user unfreindly enough!!!! (4, Funny)

Dana P'Simer (530866) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914331)

I give you the geeky linux install back: here [gentoo.org]

Re:booo... not user unfreindly enough!!!! (1)

Curtman (556920) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914511)

I give you the geeky linux install back

And they [vidalinux.com] take it away.

Re:booo... not user unfreindly enough!!!! (1)

Mr2cents (323101) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914397)

Don't panic, there will allways be vi, my friend..

how to get users (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11914241)

Perhaps if GNOME put a bunch of *COLOR* in their docs their users would be more responsive.

Record (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11914246)

Slashdotted after 0 posts...

Re:Record (0, Troll)

Entropy_ah (19070) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914333)

Impossible as that would imply that people are reading the article before posting.

Re:Record (1)

Phydeaux314 (866996) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914361)

Sssh! That's the great slashdot secret!

Obligatory comment (1)

Mad Merlin (837387) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914247)

Well we all know the KDE vs Gnome flamewar is coming, lets get it over with as quickly as possible.

Re:Obligatory comment (4, Funny)

Taladar (717494) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914265)

Yeah, they are both crap.

(as in too big, too slow, too much like Windows, too inefficient to work in,...)

Re:Obligatory comment (1)

ErichTheWebGuy (745925) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914300)

You only say that cuz you know Gnome sucks! :) *ducks*

Fork Gnome! (2, Insightful)

the_skywise (189793) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914255)

If you don't like it!

I mean, isn't that one of the selling points of OSS?

If Gnome wants to be that "closed" to its users, the users are free to fork the build, switch to KDE or build their own from scratch.

(Granted it's not very PRACTICAL, but what are you going to do? Sue them for breach of contract? It's FREE!!!!)

Re:Fork Gnome! (3, Insightful)

winkydink (650484) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914298)

Did you RTFA? Most end-users are not sw developers.

Re:Fork Gnome! (1)

Taladar (717494) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914375)

And those that are not must either find a developer who has sufficiently similar interests or must pay one, what is so difficult to understand about it?

Re:Fork Gnome! (4, Insightful)

winkydink (650484) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914409)

Not a thing if you're content with Microsoft's current market share.

If you're in the "OSS will rule the world" crowd, you need to understand that in order to succeed, you will need to adapt to what users want, not the other way around.

Re:Fork Gnome! (-1, Flamebait)

AKnightCowboy (608632) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914334)

(Granted it's not very PRACTICAL, but what are you going to do? Sue them for breach of contract? It's FREE!!!!)

People could do what I did and buy a Mac and run MacOS X. It's nice having a "real" GUI on top of BSD rather than a buggy X11 window manager.

Re:Fork Gnome! (-1, Troll)

AKnightCowboy (608632) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914360)

No idiot moderator, it's not a troll, it's the truth. X11 sucks and Gnome is a buggy window manager for it. Get over it. Mod me the fuck down all you want, I really couldn't care less anymore, I'll just use another account.

Re:Fork Gnome! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11914468)

Gnome isn't a window manager.

Regardless, what makes it buggy?

Re:Fork Gnome! (1)

prsnmn (782875) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914391)

There is a difference between users and developers. Regular users can't fork it. They don't even know what CVS is. Gnome needs to cater to users who don't know the first thing about what's under the hood. It needs to just work. That's still one of the reasons that Linux hasn't dented the desktop market.

Insightful? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11914508)

Do you guys really think that FORK IT is the right answer to every FOSS problem?

This isn't about condeming Gnome or about forking Gnome, this is about discussing how to improve Gnome.

Re:Fork Gnome! (2, Funny)

Leo McGarry (843676) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914510)

I mean, isn't that one of the selling points of OSS?

"If you don't like it, fuck off?" No, I'm gonna go ahead and say that that should not be one of the selling points of this thing you're pitching.

I'm thinking that "We listen to our customers, and while we're not perfect, we never stop trying to be" would be a good selling point.

For those just joining the discussion (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11914257)

For those just joining the discussion, you MUST read the whole thread, "roadmap status update/update request", Luis Villa, http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/ 2005-March/thread.html#00078 [gnome.org]

They didn't tell her to STFU or to F off & die. They gave her reasons why her idea for an official poll would not work. They gave her reasonable suggestions on how & why feature requests may go unfulfilled. She rallied & reiterated her points but they did not fall on dead ears. Read through the mailing list and see it for yourself. She is just one person and is guaranteed to have her own opinion. They are devels working on it & they have their own opinions.

See also a coincidental GNOME dev blog, March 10 Jakub Steiner's blog on how to request features: http://jimmac.musichall.cz/weblog.php [musichall.cz]

Re:For those just joining the discussion (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11914396)

They didn't tell her to STFU or to F off & die.

Sure [gnome.org] ? [gnome.org]

Re:For those just joining the discussion (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11914527)

First one was polite & to the point.
Second one certainly was arrogant but not at all the equivalent of a STFU & FOAD.
From your POV you see that it is, then how you do you handle it when someone shouts at you in real life FOAD? How would you handle this situation where two opposing opinions come to a head?

Re:For those just joining the discussion (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11914451)

The author of the article was told:
None of us want to be forced into unsubscribing people or creating

private lists or any of our other similar options.

Sure sounds like "don't bring these things to our attention, now f-off and die" to me!

Re:For those just joining the discussion (2, Insightful)

Vann_v2 (213760) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914514)

Not really. The point was that there's a whole mailing list dedicated to Gnome marketing, and that desktop-devel is not the appropriate place to discuss her idea.

I don't know... (1)

Phydeaux314 (866996) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914258)

With the user base that GNOME has, can they spend the time to pay attention to all the users? They should listen to their userbase, but if they can't spend the time to pay attention to all of it... Just the idle musings of a new person...

Re:I don't know... (3, Interesting)

TheWanderingHermit (513872) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914481)

I agree -- that they should listen to their user base, but there's more to it than that. It's not like they're selling Gnome or making profit off it, so there is really no reason to please users or to do anything other than program the kind of DE that Gnome developers want.

That being said, I dropped Gnome years ago because I felt it was focused more on programmers doing what they wanted and giving other programmers cool programming stuff, and KDE was much more focused on an easy to use experience.

And before I get the usual flames from someone with no life that thinks anyone who doesn't use a console is a a loser, I have a small business I run that is based on software I wrote. I was using command lines back in the late 1970s when I was lucky to get time on a paper terminal and excited when I could use a VDT.

I spent years in between teaching special ed and learned that people actually think in different styles, so many people will always do better with a GUI. My experience is that KDE has always been focused on creating a good GUI for the end user, wereas Gnome was more focused on a GUI with great APIs and everything programmers want, without a reall awareness of what helps end users.

Hmmmm... (5, Funny)

ectotherm (842918) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914260)

I thought it was supposed to be PEOPLE that thought GNOMES didn't exist, not the other way around... ;)

Heh (5, Insightful)

Neil Blender (555885) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914266)

I love it when people gripe about free software.

Re:Heh (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11914394)

What's even funnier is when the same people praise expensive software which is inherently broken. Oh wait, no...that's just sad...

This is on the mark (3, Insightful)

winkydink (650484) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914277)

If most OSS is developed by developers based on what they choose to implement, then OSS will be limited mostly to developers.

Real, for-profit development succeeds mostly by doing something the customer wants. That's the real-world bar that's been set by "the rest of the user community". By failing to listen to and develop to their requests, OSS risks becoming perceived as elitist, which will hamper wide-spread adoption.

Re:This is on the mark (1)

geckofiend (314803) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914447)

And why should a bunch of people who work for free should care about how many people will be using their software and not contributing anything back?

Users need to get a grip. Just like any other software if you don't like it use something else. You think that because the source is open and the softwre is free you suddenly have more say that what you would have with some closed source software shop?

For the life of me I don't understand why the users think our success is based on how many leaches we have taking advantage of our work.

Re:This is on the mark (1)

winkydink (650484) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914513)

If you have the most perfect desktop in environment known since the invention of the desk and jyou are the only person using it, is it successful? To you maybe, but to you only.

Re:This is on the mark (4, Insightful)

ajs (35943) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914461)

"Real, for-profit development succeeds mostly by doing something the customer wants."

And so Gnome, being the combined effort of real, for-profit companies like Novell, Sun, IBM, Red Hat and many others is... I'm sorry, what was your point there again?

"By failing to listen to and develop to their requests"

No, you see that's just the problem. Tools and systems like Gnome (which is a far-reaching set of specs, libraries and applications, which few of its users appreciate the value of, nor take advantage of beyond creating cute menus), are desgined for the needs of a huge and diverse community of users and user needs. Gnome satisfies the needs of its users....

AND THAT IS WHAT THE SLASHDOT CROWD HATES. We, here at Slashdot, are a microcosm of developers and geeks of various flavors. We have specialized needs, and we hate seeing out tools "watered down" by the needs of the average user.

That's fair, and I'm not saying that we should not push for our needs too, but face it: Gnome and KDE have both reached a level of popularity where your average Slashdotter is no longer the primary target-user. Cope.

Re:This is on the mark (1)

thenextpresident (559469) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914512)

Actually, from TFA:

"I got the answer I expected from the Novell/Sun/Red-Hat people: "regarding market research, we care about it only when happens from our marketing department and to our customers". They don't care about the "generic" Gnome user. That's ok. Understandable. These guys have a business to run.

However, I was not happy from the answer I got from the Gnome developers who don't work for a Gnome-related corporation: "

So basically, according to here, people responded from companies that basically said they are listening to do implement features that companies want.

But then she gets upset that the people that implement this stuff on their own time should do what she wants.

So really she has people who are listening to the customers, and you have people doing their own thing. How is that wrong? If I got into a project and people started using it, should I never work on my own stuff again?

Weird... (5, Funny)

GillBates0 (664202) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914279)

GNOME and its apparent lack of interest on user feedback

GNOME seems to respond to my mouse gestures and keypresses pretty effectively.

Granted, I haven't been able to train it yet to respond to my thought signals and verbal commands, but I would hardly attribute it to GNOME's lack of interest to obey me.

This has been happening for a while (2, Informative)

ErichTheWebGuy (745925) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914280)

This has been going on for quite some time. That is why people who are fed up started their own Gnome branch, GoneMe [goneme.org] that fixes the things they think are wrong with Gnome.

Re:This has been happening for a while (1)

kabz (770151) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914345)

Is this related to the new upcoming Disney sequel 'Finding gNemo' ...

No that would be (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11914398)

The Lying Gnome...

]rimshot[

mnb Re:This has been happening for a while (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11914363)

This has been going on for quite some time.

-1 flamebait

...people who are fed up started their own Gnome branch, GoneMe...

-0 true enough

...that fixes the things they think are wrong with Gnome.

+1 funny

Uh, what exactly has the project fixed? What exactly has the project released?

Hot Button Topic (5, Interesting)

excyl (685679) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914301)

It seems that /. is on a binge of Mozilla and GNOME rants. From all the different stories, I'm almost suprised that the mods haven't forked both projects themselves. With the amount of coverage given to the defects in the projects, the casual reader might think that the FOSS movement is dying. I hear that somebody doesn't like the KDE development model, so let's see if that a news item in the next day or so.

"GNOME Ignoring its Own Users?" (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11914306)

All of us? Well I'm gonna e-mail the other three, and we'll make GNOME pay attention to us!

I you hadn't nailed it to the perch... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11914494)

Things that are dead tend to fairly unresponsive to all but the most powerful stimuli.

Environments vs. Simple WIndow managers (2, Informative)

SCHecklerX (229973) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914308)

I'm getting annoyed at the current trend too. It's becoming increasingly difficult to have my environment behave the way that *I* want it to. Why do we need all of this stuff anyway? Isn't a standard Xdnd and current IPC enough to properly integrate pretty much anything without depending on a bunch of crap like 'gnome-settings-daemon' running?

I digress, the above is a slightly different rant. Not all user stuff is bad. I have sent MANY suggestions to the ROX team, and they have all made it into the software. ROX now depends on the stuff ranted about in the first paragraph, however :(

Re:Environments vs. Simple WIndow managers (4, Interesting)

Lisandro (799651) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914373)

There's options, you know. XFCE 4 [xfce.org] is a "Gnome-lite" desktop enviroment, but i find it more confortable to use than Gnome itself, never mind much, much, MUCH more bloatless. It's been my desktop of choice for a year now, and i don't see myself going back.

Gnome is nice, but (atleast in this particular topic), Eugenia has a point. We keep hearing how Gnome focuses on usability and user-friendliness and then they come up with stuff like those awful file dialogs, or the damn bloat, which makes the system crawl running a few apps.

I haven't tried Gnome for a couple of version revisions now, but XFCE gives me what i want and does the job fine.

Re:Environments vs. Simple WIndow managers (1)

m50d (797211) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914427)

If you'd tried to implement xdnd you'd know the answer to that. It's horrible. And basic IPC is too limited. Gnome-settings-daemon, though, is solving a problem that doesn't exist, basically letting you store settings in a registry rather than a config file (after the amount we moan about the windows registry, you'd think they'd realise it's a bad idea, but no).

Before the flaming starts (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11914313)

I think both editorials have a point but both are also unfair to the developers (especially Eugenias rant).

I think the problem is not that the devs don't care about what the users want, but that there today is no working infrastracture making it possible for the users to give feedback to the developers in a meaningful (for the developers) way.

Anyway, before the flaming starts, read the relevant mailing list thread here:
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-deve l-list/ 2005-March/thread.html
(roadmap status update/update request)
and you might get an idea why some developers didn't react to kind to Eugenias contributions. (To put it short, she acts incredibly annoying)

hmm (2, Insightful)

dotslasher_sri (762515) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914324)

Now GNOME developers cannot implement features requested by all users. No one does that!. not even microsoft. If a feature is asked widely enough and it seems interesting i think the developers would implement them. I know somewhere in the mailing list someone said "a feature will be implemented only if the developers want to implement it" but i dont think they mean it that way . Probably what they mean the idea should be interesting enough to one of the developers too and should be worth it. Imagien a groups of people asking for clippy now would any dev want to implement it just because people asked for it ?

Confused... (1)

LWATCDR (28044) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914424)

I thought the good thing about Open Source was that if you wanted a feature you could add it?

In other words... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11914327)

..probably a few people made suggestions that either got shot down or hasnt been gotten to yet so they decided to pitch a hissy fit that Gnome doesnt listen to users.

There is only so many hours in the day folks and hundreds if not thousands of other people making suggestions. They cant wiggle their nose and flick the magic OSS wand and stick in every single requested feature in an isntant.

Accept the fact that either
a) Its on the to-do list
or
b) Your idea was stupid!

If only this was K5... (4, Insightful)

m50d (797211) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914328)

because the story so obviously belongs at -1, Troll

WE ARE NOT IGNORING OUR USERS!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11914330)

Yes, you are. I believe that--

No, we're not!

But don't you think that--

No, we're not!

Please let me--

We are not ignoring our users!!!

Even when you--

No!!! No no!!!

Wouldn't you agree that--

Lalalalalala!!!!!!

*sigh* Those damn gnomes, goblins and other creatures... Seriously, what did we expect?

They're just being smart. (1)

k96822 (838564) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914332)

The developers are just being smart. If they were to implement every little thing every little user wanted, it would bloat. There's plenty of examples of where that happens -- take Java, for example. Just because the GNOME team may not send flowers and a thank you card to each person doesn't mean they aren't listening. It is that they have decided those ideas they aren't implementing aren't something they want to use.

Re:They're just being smart. (1)

Quattro Vezina (714892) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914379)

The developers are just being smart. If they were to implement every little thing every little user wanted, it would bloat.

*sigh*

Feature bloat is a good thing, dammit [slashdot.org] .

Re:They're just being smart. (1)

m50d (797211) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914464)

No, but they could make it appear more like they care, and actually ask the users occasionally. Sure they can't fix everything, but when they're implementing new features, and have a variety of ideas, how would it hurt them to ask the users which to do first?

Why not.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11914336)

use KDE if GNOME isn't responsive to your feedback?

ps

I've never used KDE or GNOME. Which is strange since I've been using Linux (slackware) before Kernel 1.0.

-1, Trollbait. (0, Redundant)

Nosf3ratu (702029) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914347)

nt

GNOME is bloated (1, Offtopic)

erroneus (253617) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914350)

Well, Okay, I'll requalify that statement with "GNOME's Nautilus is bloated." I know I am not the only one with this problem and it hasn't been addressed since people started saying it. Instead, over the months and years, it seems to have gotten worse. The only way to restore boot-fresh performance is to "killall nautilus" and let it start again.

What I'd like to see is a file manager that is more like (and I hate to say this) Microsoft's Explorer. It's faster and doesn't seem to suffer from what I believe to be memory leaks. (Nautilus over time seems to eat up memory until you kill it.) I do tweak Nautilus to turn off all or as many frills as possible but that only extends life a little longer.

And if it's helpful to know, I use FC3 and keep it as stock and up-to-date as possible.

Are there any drop-in-replacements for Nautilus that solves my issues?

Re:GNOME is bloated (1)

goodster (759030) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914416)

I hear Konqueror is pretty slick. :)

*ducks*

Obvious already (1)

m50d (797211) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914352)

The shipping of spatial nautilus, and the reversed confirmation dialog, both with no way to turn them off (yes this was corrected in the next .z release, but really, it should never have been shipped like that), should have made this clear to everyone.

Sounds like apple... (1)

nixfixer (859993) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914359)

Sounds like apple. The elitist "we know better what users need in a GUI".

Though they probably do.

Use Eclipse as a Model (4, Insightful)

H0p313ss (811249) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914366)

The Eclipse [eclipse.org] project actively encourages its users and clients to log bugs and change requests as well as vote and comment on them through their Bugzilla. [eclipse.org]

IIRC, this concept was encouraged by ERS in Cathedral... It would be nice to see other mainstream OSS projects such as GNOME actively embrace this model of community involvement.

That being said, I think GNOME has done some wonderful things in the past, and as far as I'm concerned the desktop improves with every release, keep up the good work!

Something in the water? (1)

LiquidCoooled (634315) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914369)

Everyone seems to be bitching and complaining about something at the moment.

From Mozilla to Gnome to the slashdot readership.

Make the most of the time you got here instead of worrying about free software. If it works, great, if not, do something constructive to make it better.

Go play games, relax, spend time with your partner, just do something you enjoy doing :)

Those of you without women, make sure you keep tissues handy.

[turning 30 has made me reflective]

Re:Something in the water? (2, Interesting)

m50d (797211) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914501)

Many people enjoy complaining. A good sensible debate is always fun, and a flamewar is also fun provided you don't take it too personally. As someone said in the last mozilla thread, it proves that people care, which is very importang.

Developers developing for themselves (2, Insightful)

DARKFORCE123 (525408) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914376)

These days its automatically assumed that if you're developing open source, its for the huge community of users out there that are NOW starting to come to your platform. Despite wanting more applications that fulfill needs for the majority of people out there, why does it seem like there is this attitude that these open source developers HAVE TO DO it. They are not blind fools out to serve the masses. I assume a large portion of them develop specific components to be noticed so that they can get a job in the industry. Sure they want to promote open source but they're not going to like it if people say develop these features , and he/she doesn't want to .

Now we're getting more people who just want clones of Windows and Windows applications and want those tools to be free.

Open source is not just about developing free stuff. Its its own self-fullfilling serving product life cycle where not only you but someone else can keep adding onto the product and its open for anyone to modify.

Open source does not mean things have to be FREE in the monetary sense. Not even in the FREE FREE sense if its developed with some other open license than the GPL.

Its also the choice of open source developers on whether they want to be business oriented always taking feedback from users or just doing what they want. However if you don't pay for it, you really have no right to complain about when Developer X doesn't do something.

Who has the momentum, Gnome or KDE? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11914382)

A genuine question here: Which desktop environment has the momentum today? I personally am a KDE user. It feels better-integrated to me, more like the Mac way of doing a desktop. But of course I feel that way because I use KDE. But I'm curious what the concensus is? Or are we going to continue forever with two desktops? Would Gnome have any momentum if it weren't for Redhat?

Gnome 2.10 is great (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11914384)

While they might need a new way to choose new features, I can't think of anything they didn't touch (and improve) in this release. Yes, minor things mostly, but that's what gives it polish. If Eugina (`f-serin) doesn't like it there are plenty of other WMs out there.

CBW#$
http://lefttochance.com/ - why not, I could be right...

In other news... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11914407)

99% of World's Users Ignoring Gnome.

Eugenia is a stupid whore, mostly (-1, Troll)

karmaflux (148909) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914410)

She's full of "helful suggestions" that nobody likes. She's just short on code.

users are dumb (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11914411)

Everyone with a clue knows that the typical user these days is a moron and should be completely ignored... i commend gnome for realizing this and shun slashdot for posting this useless story. Slashdot - you guys are losin your touch...

Call me an idiot... (4, Insightful)

Anita Coney (648748) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914418)

... well, mostly because I am one, but I was perplexed why anyone would disagree with the following statement:

"A feature will be implemented if and only if there is a developer who wants to implement it"

Why should someone be compelled to develop software he doesn't want to develop? When you're forced to do something you don't want to do, that's called work, not a hobby. That isn't what open source is about.

If you want a feature put in an open source product, either do it yourself, wait for someone to do it, or pay someone to do it for you. But never ever ever expect someone to do it for you for free.

Case in point: Spatial Nautilus (5, Insightful)

Raul Acevedo (15878) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914419)

Note: I've been using GNOME since 0.30, so I have a certain sense of loyalty to it.

A case in point was the whole debacle over what was hailed as a great, new achievement in usability for Nautilus: the spatial metaphor.

What a disaster. It was amazing to me that it took a whole month or two of users complaining and bitching left and right, before the developers decided to add the ability to easily disable spatial mode. Agreed, they finally added it, but it was like pulling teeth. The "we developers know better than the users" attitude was very stricking.

I don't care whether you prefer spatial or not, the merits of spatial are a separate argument. But so many people complained about it, so vehemently, that it's amazing it took more than say a few days before they patched a simple menu accessible toggle. Today you will still get people saying stupid things like "well you could always disable it in gconf". Sigh.

Before the flames begin... (2, Insightful)

nine-times (778537) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914421)

I know this whole topic is bound to turn into a wild flame-fest, people on both sides, either honest misunderstanding or through malice, misrepresenting the other's opinions. However, I'd first like to say that this raises an interesting question that I've had in mind for quite a long time:

What is an open-source developer's responsibility to his users?

I mean, sure, there are instances where someone might through together a little tool for himself, and open-source it just in case someone else might have a use, in which case I'd say his responsibility is practically zero.

However, the matter seems different to me when you have these relatively large foundations running major projects that are used in a large percentage of available distributions. Imagine FOSS does take over the world someday, and the Linux/Gnome combination accounts for a large percentage of the desktop market-share, what then? Let's pretend 90% of desktop users are dependent on Gnome to get things done-- do we still say that Gnome developers have no responsibility to address the needs of Gnome users?

If the Gnome development community would say yes, I'd probably hope that someone fork the project ASAP, someone who is willing to take responsibility for being user-centric. That goes for any major project. As a bit of an open-source advocate, I hope developers of major projects are always keeping their users in mind. If not, I'll have to go back to advocating closed-source proprietary companies insofar as they recognize "users" to be an important part of the equation, and not just "that annoying whining sound".

Inexcusable (3, Insightful)

Pan T. Hose (707794) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914422)

Ignoring their users? That is completely inexcusable. If I was one of their paying customers I would certainly--oh, wait a minute... Maybe those users should just stop bitching when they get something for free? Fork up or shut up, that's just how free software works, you know. Do you want anything changed? I am sure that the developer whom you have hired to add your features will do it in no time. Oh, you don't want to pay any money? Tough luck then, because GNU is free as in freedom, not free as in cheap-ass-users-love-to-bitch-and-moan. Welcome to the Real World.

Re:Inexcusable (0, Offtopic)

Sheetrock (152993) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914507)

It really is incredible. Who knew that getting something for nothing would be such a raw deal, unless the something was herpes?

Let us thank, not criticize, Gnome Developers (5, Insightful)

deacon (40533) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914423)

I mean, really, WTF is wrong with some people?

The Gnome developers have slaved away for years to GIVE us a really nice desktop environment.

Yet, some people have decided that isn't good enough, and want the Gnome developers to become personal servants to fulfill their whims and fancies.

We should be thanking the Gnome developers, not whining that they don't cater to our personal brain-fart of the day. An easy alternative for them is to not provide Gnome at all.

So stop whining and STFU.

Oh, ya, I am not a software developer of any kind. But if I gave away some sort of widget I made, and people whined that this free widget should be pink not purple, I would tell them to FO.

Re:Let us thank, not criticize, Gnome Developers (1)

haxmtrx (821033) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914487)

right on! couldn't have said it better myself.

This happened to me (0, Troll)

cvd6262 (180823) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914425)

I run GDM, so I clicked on the "Login" field and typed my name. Gnome ignored me! Completely. I was so frustrated, I thought about emailing the devs, but then I realized my keyboard was unplugged.

Eugenia is a troll (1)

jaymzter (452402) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914438)

1. post trollish comment to dev list.
2. write article about it when you get flamed
3. welcome /.

Honestly, was her "question" valid for a dev list? Why not post this to gnome-list or one of the others. Nothing to see here

works (1)

haxmtrx (821033) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914443)

It works for me. If I can't do something in GNOME I just find a way to work around it.

Wrong perspective... (1)

null etc. (524767) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914452)

...about GNOME and its apparent lack of interest on user feedback, especially when GNOME pitches itself to follow a 'users first philosophy'

GNOME does put (certain) users first! (i.e. the developers and designers of GNOME)

this just in.. (1)

Stalyn (662) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914458)

geeks on average have bad people skills... not all of them but alot. and this is what happens. why don't the gnome people hire someone as a figurehead to calm the pleas of the peons. someone personable who could go to the users and say 'whats the problem?' and then go the developers and say 'here's what they are asking for'. i just feel the users going directly to the developers isnt going to work out.

Simple (1, Redundant)

SomeOtherGuy (179082) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914466)

If I am going to code something for free, it is most likely going to be a feature that I personally want for my own good. Sure I will pass it on because it is the nature of OSS. Occasionally I may stroke my ego by throwing someone else a bone.

What is so wrong with that?

Rules' the same for OSS as elsewhere: (1)

ducomputergeek (595742) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914469)

Piss off your consumers and they will go elsewhere...problem for OSS projects are the cost for software to switch to KDE or whatever: FREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you need a feature, buy the feature. (4, Interesting)

analog_line (465182) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914477)

There are a lot of unemployed or underemployed coders out there. If there are a significant amount of people who need/want a feature that the Gnome dev team refuses to implement, pool your resources and hire a developer to write an extension to Gnome. You can submit the patch, your group and the less underemployed coder get the credit, and you get the feature you want. Even if the Gnome team doesn't accept it, nothing stops you from using it and distributing it.

Developers that are getting paid to work on GNOME are beholden to those that pay them. Yeah, they're working on an Open Source project, but by taking money for their time, the people paying them get to direct their coding. Unpaid developers are beholden to themselves and themselves alone. That's the way it should be. If you don't like it, you need to literally put your money where your mouth is. As has been said many times before, free software only costs nothing if the time spent developing it is worth nothing.

free market & self-centred twits (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11914491)

in the free market, you choose the product that does best what you want. You might give suggestions to the maker and they might implement them depending on an effort/reward analysis for them (not you). If enough people stopped using their product to cause them concern, they'd make the changes most requested.

And open source is different how?

I've noticed a half frightening and half amusing tendency of people to consider the failure to satisfy their personal twitches as some world-ending event. These people typically whine that *they* will not use the product because it is not exactly what *they* want as if their boycott will bring all injustice crumbling down.

Get some perspective on your relative meaninglessness on this planet. Choose what works for you and offer suggestions on improvement with more thought than just *gimme gimme* or use something else.

Why oh why.. (1, Interesting)

guacamole (24270) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914504)

.. after six years of development, Gnome 2.x (as shipped with RedHat Enterprise Linux 3) still comes with the Nautilus file manager and the control-panel application that regularly crash on login (we use NFS mounted home dirs but that's not a good excuse). And how come I started to get this stupid message that warns me when I login from a second computer telling me I have logged in from some other place? The are plenty of desktop environment (e.g. CDE..) that work just fine regardless of how many terminals you're logged in from.

Join GnomeLove, it will help all (1, Informative)

anandpur (303114) | more than 9 years ago | (#11914516)

GnomeLove is an initiative that aims to help people who want to get started contributing to GNOME

GnomeLove [gnome.org]

yuo FaiL It (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#11914518)

OpenBSD, as the disturxbing. If you is busy infighting
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