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FBI Demands Logs From Radical Website

timothy posted more than 9 years ago | from the notoriety dept.

Privacy 884

sunbird writes "The details are as yet unclear due to a gag order, but apparently the FBI is once again demanding IP logs from dissident webservers. The sysadmin for flag.blackened.net, best known for hosting infoshop.org and the Anarchist FAQ has responded to an FBI request for server logs. Although he cannot reveal the details of the request due to the gag order, the sysadmin has issued an informal press release discussing his reasons for turning over the information. Slashdot articles on similar topics: (1) (2) (3)"

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FBI Demands FP From FTM (-1, Offtopic)

Fecal Troll Matter (445929) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093450)

News at 11.

Nice Battery Icon (0, Offtopic)

Ads are broken (718513) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093490)

Duracell's going to sue your ass.

/dev/null (4, Insightful)

garcia (6573) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093451)

Our users have posted a total of 55265 articles. We have 1787 registered users

I just can't understand why someone running what is apparently a popular site would ever keep logs for more than a very short amount of time?

2. Comply with the wishes of the FBI, provide the IP addresses, and count on the fact that I will catch a lot of heat and hatred from my comrades in the anarchist movement worldwide.

I'd comply and say that there are no log files as they are immediately dumped to /dev/null.

Though it pains me to comply with the State in any manner, I have to choose option #2. The people who have foolishly compromised us all will shoulder the burden for their selfish actions. Frankly folks, they know better - we all know better.

Running a website that is viewed as a "threat" to the government in which the servers reside should have taught the admin (Dave) to know better and not to keep logs of any kind past a short period of time (minutes?) so that a webstats program could be run and the data incorporated and then removed. I don't see why this wasn't followed. I mean my website only averages 1000 hits (not even unique visits) daily over a month and it takes webalizer about three seconds to do what it needs to do.

But, the real point is that I feel like a coward and traitor to my comrades, even in the face of what is essentially a coerced decision. I'm the last one who will criticize or disagree with any of you who want to deride me. I'm also aware that this will probably cause quite a few of you to lose faith in me, flag, and it's subdomains. This can't be avoided and it's something I weighed into my decision.

Oh it could have been avoided if the admin took the time to make sure that no such logs were being kept. They can only subpoena what physically exists.

Freedom of speech does not exist, don't try to test it. They will come bust down your door - for real - point a gun to your head and pull the trigger if you refuse to comply.

Someone that is so against government control and intrusion should have known that this inevitability would occur at some point. Why didn't they take the time to protect themselves especially when they (and/or their family) could be harmed by the very people they host discussions for who could become enraged by their actions?

Re:/dev/null (5, Insightful)

El Cubano (631386) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093540)

Freedom of speech does not exist, don't try to test it. They will come bust down your door - for real - point a gun to your head and pull the trigger if you refuse to comply.

Someone that is so against government control and intrusion should have known that this inevitability would occur at some point. Why didn't they take the time to protect themselves especially when they (and/or their family) could be harmed by the very people they host discussions for who could become enraged by their actions?

Not only that, but did his site(s) get shutdown? My guess is that this currently an investigation in progress. If people start disappearing without due process or his sites are shut down, then he has a legitimate gripe. Contrary to popular belief, freedom of speech does not entitle you to say anything you want (e.g., threatening to kill someone, yelling fire! in a crowded building, etc.)

We should reserve judgment until the details become available.

Re:/dev/null (5, Insightful)

garcia (6573) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093597)

We should reserve judgment until the details become available.

I'm not judging anything other than his lack of foresight that got him into this mess in the first place.

Re:/dev/null (4, Insightful)

El Cubano (631386) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093626)

I'm not judging anything other than his lack of foresight that got him into this mess in the first place.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. My last comment was directed at the collective-knee-jerk-reacting-slashbots that come frothing at the mouth to every YRO article. I agree that some questionable things have happened, but it is still too early to tell what is really going on in this case.

Re:/dev/null (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12093711)

Sorry, I should have been more clear. My last comment was directed at the collective-knee-jerk-reacting-slashbots that come frothing at the mouth to every YRO article.

I just can't help laughing at the anarchist who was diligently maintaining traffic logs on his servers. Next thing you know he'll be screaming about copyright infringement when he finds his description of Dulce Base on another site!

To me it looks like he's playing for publicity (4, Interesting)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093574)

I mean I don't doubt he got the request, but his giving in and what follows is just so much drama:

"Freedom of speech does not exist, don't try to test it. They will come bust down your door - for real - point a gun to your head and pull the trigger if you refuse to comply."

No, actually, they won't. In a case like this they'll send you a subpoena asking for the infromation they want. If you fail to respond, the court will issue an order for your arrest, and a warrant allowing them to sieze the comptuers that should have the logs. When they come to arrest you, you won't get shot unless you do something stupid, like threaten them with a weapon. They'll just cuff you, read you your rights, and then gather what they came to get.

However, as you stated, he could have avoided the whole thing by just not keeping logs. I've run more than one server that doesn't keep logs, not for secrecy, but because it lacked a lot of storage and it just wasn't imporant to log what kind of access happened.

Re:To me it looks like he's playing for publicity (5, Informative)

Rei (128717) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093673)

While it's more than a touch paranoid to apply it to himself, COINTELPRO [wikipedia.org] , which he mentioned, was quite real [cointel.org] , and did some pretty darn nasty things. It's the very reason why the "wall" between the FBI and CIA, and a lot of restrictions on the agencies, were set up in the first place.

Re:To me it looks like he's playing for publicity (2, Insightful)

dr_dank (472072) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093701)

No, actually, they won't. In a case like this they'll send you a subpoena asking for the infromation they want. If you fail to respond, the court will issue an order for your arrest, and a warrant allowing them to sieze the comptuers that should have the logs.

It seems inevitable that the computers would be seized. I don't think the investigators would take it at face value that the logs didn't exist without checking for themselves.

Re:/dev/null (2, Interesting)

4of12 (97621) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093709)


I just can't understand why someone running what is apparently a popular site would ever keep logs for more than a very short amount of time?

Along the same lines, have you noticed that most companies now have an explicit official policy on information and records retention? Old emails will be deleted after 30 days, 1 year, etc.

The obvious reason is to avoid legal liability (Microsoft's emails) and embarrassment (Monica Lewinsky).

[Regarding this particular case: if the FBI is on a bona fide investigation of criminal activity and the courts have issued an order directing compliance with the investigation and this is NOT some post "Patriot Act" "sneak-n-peak" fishing expedition action exempt from judicial oversight then go ahead and provide law enforcement with what specific information they need and nothing else.]

Presto logs (1)

spywarearcata.com (841806) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093460)

While it is probably not long off before logs are required to be kept for, say, ten years by order of the Protectorate, it sure is foolhardy for an isp unpopular with the g00ns to keep more than a day or two of logs.

Once you get the subpoena it's too late to revise your retention policy.

Forget Soviet Jokes... (-1, Flamebait)

Metapsyborg (754855) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093628)

In Fascist U.S., government terrorizes YOU.

Re:Forget Soviet Jokes... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12093706)

Step 1: Run anarchist website

Step 2: Draw the ire of the US government

Step 3: ...

Step 4: Acquire wealth and spread it equally among the proletariat!

Press Release (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12093461)

FBI investigating incidents on subdomains hosted by flag.blackened.net.

OK folks, here's the real deal as far as I can share it legally at the moment. Consider it as a press release if you wish and feel free to distribute it for whatever reason you deem necessary.

I'm under court order not to speak about specifics and have my attorney trying to find out what the maximum penalty for disclosure really is. I hate to have to keep my mouth shut in areas where the Gestapo is involved, but I also have to weigh things against the overall security of flag and it's subdomains and also the wellbeing of my family.

I have been ordered to submit IP info on two separate incidents having to do with subdomains hosted on flag. Both of these are in regard to claimed or threatened responsibility for acts of propaganda by the deed. Both incidents involve topics which are completely out of line for consideration here at flag and really I can only view them in two ways. Either people are simply ignorant about the murderous history of the FBI, or, as is my belief in one case, they are trying to make flag vulnerable to government intrusion.

At this point let me say, in all honesty and conviction, that if I end up dead by strange means - suicide, overdose, drunk driving accident (I never, ever, ever drink and drive), "accidental" gunshot to the back of the head while sleeping ala Fred Hampton, car jacking, or anything else reasonably suspicious, contact the FBI in Chico, California for more details.

I have called numerous friends nationwide, anarchists and otherwise whose opinions I respect and who I know will be honest and forthwith in their opinions to ask them how I should proceed. The unanimous consensus is that I comply with the wishes of the FBI and provide the IP addresses responsible. The only point of discussion, really, has been whether or not I should reveal the specific information in violation of two court orders.

Really, I am not left with much of a choice. Here are my two choices as I see them:

1. Do not comply with the wishes of the FBI. This will most likely lead to the seizure of flag and a compromise of all the sites and information online. It will probably also lead to me being imprisoned, I would guess. I personally do not fear this, but I am the sole support for my wife and infant daughter. There can be no doubt we would probably lose our home as a result.

2. Comply with the wishes of the FBI, provide the IP addresses, and count on the fact that I will catch a lot of heat and hatred from my comrades in the anarchist movement worldwide.

Though it pains me to comply with the State in any manner, I have to choose option #2. The people who have foolishly compromised us all will shoulder the burden for their selfish actions. Frankly folks, they know better - we all know better.

I was first contacted by the Oakland FBI. Many of you know their history. We are talking COINTELPRO for real - not a perceived or mythical fear. They are proven murderers and automatons for the state who will blindly follow any order to kill or disrupt without question. Read the history of their disinformation campaign against the panthers if you don't believe me. The panther comic book which they completed and distributed, the fake letters between Huey and Eldridge, the fires of hatred and murder they faked and inflamed between the panthers and the US or "united slaves" which led to the murder of Bunchy Carter and John Higgins in L.A., the list goes on and on.

But, the real point is that I feel like a coward and traitor to my comrades, even in the face of what is essentially a coerced decision. I'm the last one who will criticize or disagree with any of you who want to deride me. I'm also aware that this will probably cause quite a few of you to lose faith in me, flag, and it's subdomains. This can't be avoided and it's something I weighed into my decision. I post this mainly to inform you all and give you opportunity to make your own decisions as to whether I've handled this correctly and whether you wish to use flag or it's subdomains in the future. If you don't trust me, I understand, believe me.

It is by far the most agonizing decision I've been faced with in relation to my anarchist opinions.

This is why we do not discuss certain things as if they are a legitimate part of anarchism. Resist the extra y-chromosome influenced urge to sound more hardcore than the guy next to you. Nobody is impressed and the powers that be are sitting on the edges of their seats waiting for an excuse to shut down flag. Freedom of speech does not exist, don't try to test it. They will come bust down your door - for real - point a gun to your head and pull the trigger if you refuse to comply.

Believe it.

Your admin,

Dave

Re:Press Release (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12093621)

I personally do not fear this, but I am the sole support for my wife and infant daughter.

His wife can't support herself? What kind of anarchist is he?

Re:Press Release (-1, Troll)

the_mad_poster (640772) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093634)

...furthermore one of them tried to get a hand in my pants... ...this just goes to show what happens when you won't blow agent Mulder...

Nice to see the moderators are reading these things before they mod them up....

Re:Press Release (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12093635)

I wonder if this has anything to do with the theft of Chico State student records?

Re:Press Release (4, Insightful)

spywarearcata.com (841806) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093699)

Hello, Dave.

If the FBI served a court order (subpoena) then not to comply might be considered contumacious conduct warranting, say, up to 18 months in jail. Note that a court would impose this, not the FBI.

If I were you I would not worry about being assassinated since if you flout the law then you will be doing it to yourself.

Even if your attorney says to do what the FBI says, i.e., roll over, at least you will serve as a warning to others of the danger of keeping unnecessary records.

Besides, if you make a prominent warning that you do not keep records, then you will be far less likely to attract a subpoena in the first place.

Also when dealing with any federal official, please remember that even not under oath, you break the law if you misrepresent a material fact to them. Of course this does not apply to them lying to you, which they may do freely.

Nothing for you to see here. Please move along. (-1, Offtopic)

0x461FAB0BD7D2 (812236) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093463)

Most appropriate comment was generated by Slashdot itself.

Mod Slashdot +5, Funny

Here too. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12093466)

If Michael was still around he'd probably bend over backwards to help the FBI track down certain anonymous cowards.

Michael wouldn't bend over backwards (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12093685)

Forwards, certainly. But not backwards...

Aww geez (3, Insightful)

winkydink (650484) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093472)

The guy is a self-admitted left-extremist who refer to the FBI as the Gestapo.

If you're an extremist (left or right), you should expect that eventually you will receive an extreme response.

Re:Aww geez (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12093544)

Freedom of speech! You're allowed to say extreme things.

Re:Aww geez (1)

falzer (224563) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093562)

> Freedom of speech! You're allowed to say extreme things.

Extreme claims require extreme evidence.

Re:Aww geez (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12093650)

Extreme claims require extreme evidence.
Prove that!

Re:Aww geez (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12093676)

Extreme claims require extreme evidence.

But extreme opinions don't.

Re:Aww geez (1)

TheKidWho (705796) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093588)

Yes you are, but your also not allowed to threaten someone's elses life or put national security at risk. The admin of the site didn't do it, someone else on his forum posted some crazy stuff I gather and a little warning light at the FBI went off.

Re:Aww geez (1)

FidelCatsro (861135) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093674)

In many countrys ..such as the old soviet block , national security included anything that may put a negative light upon the communist party.

Re:Aww geez (1)

MoneyT (548795) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093695)

And any read through a standard political discussion on slashdot shows that isn't the case in the US.

Re:Aww geez (3, Insightful)

grub (11606) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093555)

If you're an extremist (left or right), you should expect that eventually you will receive an extreme response

That's right. Be a good boy, don't speak out of turn and eat your vegetables.

Calling the FBI "Gestapo" is just name calling. Big deal. Bush is a nazi, Blair is a cunt and the CIA are murderous thugs. It's not something they don't hear every day. They want something information that is tied to something more involved than simple name calling.

Re:Aww geez (1)

FidelCatsro (861135) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093625)

Bravo , Though i would rather call Blair a gimp/brown noser ;) .

Re:Aww geez (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12093658)

I swear the nerves between my brain and fingers go dyslexic or something. I always see words added into things I type, and only on slashdot.

Re:Aww geez (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12093565)

In theory, not in the US. In practice...

Re:Aww geez (1)

the arbiter (696473) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093604)

How is this different from Operation Rescue (self-admitted right-extremists) referring to the Pinellas County police as "Gestapo", "Stormtroopers", and "Nazis"? I don't see any FBI kicking down their front doors.

Apparently you're unfamiliar with a concept known as "freedom of speech".

Most of my fellow Americans are as ignorant, unfortunately.

Re:Aww geez (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12093617)

refer to the FBI as the Gestapo

Ever heard of Ruby [wikipedia.org] Ridge [crimelibrary.com] ?

I'd say comparing certain certain arms of the government to the Gestapo is legit.

Re:Aww geez (1)

winkydink (650484) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093693)

Ever thought of reading your history books? Hint: Another government agency with a 3-letter acronym. Part of the Treasury department. First letter is an A.

Re:Aww geez (0)

metlin (258108) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093638)

Yeah, and not only is he an extremist, he also seems to be an anarchist.

Well, you have stuff that could harm the state, the state comes knocking. Big deal.

Some of his statements are so ridiculous that its almost laughable. On the bright side, he can plead insanity.

Re:Aww geez (1, Insightful)

Malc (1751) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093639)

Hurray for the land of the free: McCarthyism lives on!

No it's not that (4, Insightful)

Sycraft-fu (314770) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093651)

Notice they aren't after him, they just wants logs about others that have come there.

The problem is, with extremist sites like that, you'll get some who are a little more extremist than most. Maybe you are a group of anarchists that really do believe in no government. You believe in real, total anarchy. However, you don't believe in using violence to being that about, you aren't THAT extreme. Government will leave you be, you aren't breaking any laws.

Well guess what? Sooner or later someone who IS extreme to the point that they want to use violence will show up. That will draw the intrest of the government. It is illegal to try to violently overthrow the government, make no mistake.

Well if noe or more of these people hangs around your site, you shouldn't be supprised if the government wants information on them.

Now maybe this is just harassment by the FBI, but I'd actually bet not. There are plenty of sites out there that are anti-government. I'm betting this is a real request to try and find some people for an investigation. Maybe it's just fishing, but still. The operators drama aside, it sounds like all they did was ask for the IPs that are behind some posts. I don't really see the problem.

Re:Aww geez (3, Insightful)

gstoddart (321705) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093656)

The guy is a self-admitted left-extremist who refer to the FBI as the Gestapo.


If you're an extremist (left or right), you should expect that eventually you will receive an extreme response.

Well, unless he actually did something, I'm pretty sure the US constitution used to uphold the rights of people to actually be whack-jobs and extremists.

The fact that everyone should expect that eventually you will receive an extreme response is a little chilling, because if he didn't actually do anything, Gestapo is a remarkably accurate word.

Re:Aww geez (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12093698)

If you're an extremist (left or right), you should expect that eventually you will receive an extreme response.

That's not true. Why are there no right wing extremist organizations listed in thte DHS threat lists?
Click here [cq.com]

Damn... (2, Insightful)

ImaLamer (260199) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093720)

I had a really good response but it was too extreme and since I don't want trouble I'll keep it to myself.

I for one welcome our freedom hating overlords...

Gestapo is extreme (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12093733)

Calling them a group with NO constitutional authority and a dismal history would be more accurate.

But of course! (2, Insightful)

FlyByPC (841016) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093475)

Big Brother needs this information to protect us. Big Brother only has our own best interests in mind. We should all love Big Brother. 21 years ahead of Welles' prediction, but still...

Re:But of course! (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12093492)

You mean Orwell of course.....

Re:But of course! (1)

FlyByPC (841016) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093559)

Yes -- thanks. (Oops.)

Re:But of course! (1)

TheKidWho (705796) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093547)

yes of course.... We live in a complete dsytopia these days...

Re:But of course! (2, Funny)

DustMagnet (453493) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093670)

We live in a complete dsytopia these days

Dyslexic dystopia.

Re:But of course! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12093557)

We should all love Big Brother.

We all love Big Brother. Are you saying you some don't love Big Brother? I'm calling the thought police right now. We all love Big Brother.

Re:But of course! (1)

Rei (128717) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093613)

Yes, Welles [imdb.com] prediction that Muppets would make it to Hollywood seems uncanny.

Perhaps you meant George Orwell as opposed to Orson Welles (or some other Welles?)

narc (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12093479)

this guys a narc who sold out to the man. a real human being would say F U fbi, sandblast the disks and run for the border. this guy should be shunned by everyone everywhere at everytime.

seriously america can you say police state yet? or has it been changed to freedom state

And next they'll demand ... (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12093483)

Slashdots logs

for linking to a story about the FBI and Anarchists

Choice bits from the "press release" (2, Insightful)

daveschroeder (516195) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093484)

"people are simply ignorant about the murderous history of the FBI"

"At this point let me say, in all honesty and conviction, that if I end up dead by strange means - suicide, overdose, drunk driving accident (I never, ever, ever drink and drive), "accidental" gunshot to the back of the head while sleeping ala Fred Hampton, car jacking, or anything else reasonably suspicious, contact the FBI in Chico, California for more details."

"Though it pains me to comply with the State in any manner"

"[The Oakland FBI] proven murderers and automatons for the state who will blindly follow any order to kill or disrupt without question"

"Freedom of speech does not exist, don't try to test it. They will come bust down your door - for real - point a gun to your head and pull the trigger if you refuse to comply."

One man's +5 funny... (3, Interesting)

revscat (35618) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093594)

is another man's tragically insightful.

"Freedom of speech does not exist, don't try to test it. They will come bust down your door - for real - point a gun to your head and pull the trigger if you refuse to comply."

For some reason, I think there is more truth there than most of us would like to believe or admit.

Re:One man's +5 funny... (2, Insightful)

daveschroeder (516195) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093686)

Bullshit.

You can speak whatever you wish, obvious exceptions ("yelling fire in a movie theater, etc.) aside.

You have more chance of being ostracized or punished for unpopular speech at our nation's leading universities [thefire.org] than by the government.

If you're the type of person who focuses in on all police/goverment/authority abuses, and only the abuses, and that's it, I've no doubt you steadfastly hold firm to your statements.

But you frankly have no idea what the FBI is going after this site for. I guarantee you it's not for talking trash about the President or revealing "the truth" about 9/11. We've got enough of that to fill a dozen Libraries of Congress. It's got to be something a fuck of a lot more substantial, and you know it, otherwise half of the blogs on the internet would be subpoenaed every day.

I know these words will be lost on many who read it, and the responses will vary from "FUCK YOU" (including half-assed attempts at jokes now that I said that) to various assertions that we're currently living in a police state, circa 1984. Please, get a grip on reality.

Re:Choice bits from the "press release" (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12093619)

yes, nothing like being modded up for doing nothing other than copy and pasting pieces from a one page long forum post.

Way to go David. Thanks! Maybe some clueful moderator will bring you back down to where you belong for this crap: -1 Redundant.

Chicken Big or Chkicken Little? (5, Funny)

stevens (84346) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093487)

Either it's the start of the fourth reich, tracking down all the remaining Jedi^Wfreethinkers and killing them, or it's a normal subpoena request for a normal investigation.

I'll go ask Occam and get back to you.

I've seen this before... (-1, Flamebait)

pmike_bauer (763028) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093488)

Slashdot articles on similar topics: (1) (2) (3)
In other news, /. editors now post their own links to dups in article summaries.

Anything to see here? (1)

sanityspeech (823537) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093491)

I half-expected an invocation of the Patriot Act on this matter.

Perhaps some convoluted interpretation of Sec. 811 (i.e. "Penalties for terrorist conspiracies") could be applied?

My first thought was: Nothing to see here... [slashdot.org]

Not a troll, just a thought.

You know... (5, Funny)

Alias777 (841435) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093493)

The best way to make the FBI happy is to slashdot the site. Great job! Now I have time to hide my cyanide in the subway rails!

dupe? (1)

holzp (87423) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093494)

I wish this *was* a dupe. Scary.

well, the site's dead now! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12093501)

- anyone wonder why?

- besides, who gives a crap about a retard anti-Christ, er, anarchist anyhow?

Mmmm.. Dynamic (2, Interesting)

Kimos (859729) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093504)

Whenever I read articles like this I think two things:
1. So happy I live in Canada. It could be almost anywhere that isn't the US though. The rampant paranoia there is baffling.
2. So happy I'm on a dynamic IP pool. You want my address? Have it. I'll just cycle mine if I'm ever worried.

Re:Mmmm.. Dynamic (1)

Aliencow (653119) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093575)

How would cycling help?

Re:Mmmm.. Dynamic (1)

Ironsides (739422) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093584)

The rampant paranoia there is baffling.

Not sure that it is rampant. Just pretty sure that it's what makes the news. Either that or they are just the most vocal of everyone. As for the otherside; If I'm not worried about it, why should I bother to shoot down someone who is? To make them feel better? Why should I bother? They probably wouldn't listen to me anyway.

Re:Mmmm.. Dynamic (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12093629)

Your provider logs which MAC,phone number, etc got an IP at a given time and there by which user. The police came after me based on such data, although my providers logs where broken (and I knew before the police investigation), but luckily in my case it was only because they suspected a stolen laptop had used my internet connection.

Re:Mmmm.. Dynamic (2, Insightful)

TheKidWho (705796) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093655)

Dynamic IP won't protect you. They also have the time and date when that IP was used.

Also, yeah definetly, we US citizens are cowering from the fear of the FBI coming to get us. Every day we live wondering "Will the FBI come and knock on our doors tomorrow and take us to room 101?"

Ohh and don't be so happy that you live in Canada, if American did turn into the fascist state that many of you anti-americans are saying it is, Canada would be one of the first countires to be umm annexed. Then comes Europe... muhahah we merikans shall conquer the world, praise the holy divine king Bush chosen by god himself!!

Really though, it's too bad many foriegners view the US in such bad light, it's not a bad country at all, and for the most part it's filled with very good people.

Re:Mmmm.. Dynamic (2, Informative)

Nos. (179609) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093708)

Hopefully your ISP isn't keeping logs of the IPs your using... oh wait, they probably are... even here in Canada.

One thing is for sure: (1)

kid_wonder (21480) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093511)

The next time the FBI asks for logs they are going to be a LOT bigger due to this story.

Only sure thing is death and taxes (1)

abb3w (696381) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093631)

The next time the FBI asks for logs they are going to be a LOT bigger due to this story.

Or possibly a lot smaller after being relocated to /dev/null, as several people have suggested...

Slashdot noise (1)

muellerr1 (868578) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093532)

Slashdot users will certainly make the FBI's job much harder with all that extra traffic. Was this intentional?

Re:Slashdot noise (1)

heavy snowfall (847023) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093643)

uh, no, just cut of the logs at 1 sec before slashdot got a hold of the news...

And? (3, Insightful)

Telastyn (206146) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093538)

So what? If I owned a little deli, and had a security camera, are those tapes safe from subpeona? If I ran a little telecom, would the phone lines be safe from wiretap orders?

Why should server logs be any different?

Radical Websites... (5, Funny)

Uptown Joe (819388) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093541)

So all those sites dedicated to the mullet rocking, Oakley blade wearing (with the pink arms) lifted Toyota minitruck driving, Coors light drinking Americans from the 80's are in big trouble!

Rad.
Totally.

Dude.

Gag orders should have expiration dates. (5, Insightful)

ka9dgx (72702) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093546)

All "gag" orders should have an expiration date. Once the date is passed, the order, the reasons for the order, and all relevant data should be made public. The expiration date should be public, regardless.

That's my armchair proposal for a better America.

--Mike--

Re:Gag orders should have expiration dates. (1)

MoneyT (548795) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093608)

They do. gag orders generaly expire at either the conclusion of the investigation or the conclusion of the trial. In the worst case, the information will become declassified in later years as all government documents do.

Re:Gag orders should have expiration dates. (1)

Shadow Wrought (586631) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093725)

It is my understanding, from college a decade ago (so things could easily have changed), that that is similar to how things run in Europe. When a case is happening, up to and including trial, there is an automatic gag order on everything in the case, and also on the reporting in the press. The flip side is that once the trial is over, then everything is fair game and there is no more allowance for secrecy.

If I'm wrong on this, hopefully some of our fellow slashdotters from across the pond will let us know. A system such as this could also be helpful in the US for those cases in which a large corporation settles and the settlement remains secret. It would be much harder to keep poor ethics swept under the rug once there is no longer a chance of secrecy.

Clicked ? (1)

nahnkari (732424) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093552)

Hope you didn't click on the links...

Solution: Go out to the Forest (4, Funny)

WillAffleckUW (858324) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093553)

chop down a tree you've lubricated with liquid waste products while standing next to it, and cut it into short two foot segments (or half-meter for the rest of the world).

Get a poker, bend it so it spells IP, then start a fire with the sawdust and stick the poker in.

Heat up the poker till it glows, using tree branches and some short tree segments and scrap. Then brand each tree segment with the symbol IP from the poker. Reheat as needed if the poker cools.

Deliver tree segments, aka "Logs", that you can truthfully say are "IP Logs", to Secret Service.

Mission Accomplished! You are now a terrorrorrorrist.

Holy Crap! This retard has SPAWNED! (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12093563)

- what stupid beatch would have this person's seed?

- pretty disgusting if you ask me!

- but then again, you need to take a test to get a driver's license, but any crack whore can add to the gene pool...

ServerLogs (1)

sameerdesai (654894) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093579)

And now that you posted the links to the website all the slashdotters who visit the link will come under FBI scrutiny. Wait a minute, nobody RTFA anyway. My bad, carry on! :)

smash smash (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12093580)

>...the sysadmin has issued an informal press release discussing his reasons for turning over the information.
I hope it wasn't because he feared for his hardware, which is probably now a molten pool of plastic and metal due to the slashdotting...

Link (1)

Inkieminstrel (812132) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093581)

I like the link to the site we can go to so our IPs can be listed on these logs :)

Black Flag (5, Interesting)

AppyPappy (64817) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093607)

I am absolutely shocked that the FBI doesn't already own and control the site to troll for anarchists. Everytime I see a site that preaches radicalism, my first reaction is "Fed".

I have a friend who worked undercover investigating racist groups and he said he would look around the room and try to figure out who was connected to which agency. For all they knew, they ALL were cops.

Slashdot owned by the FBI (1)

space_in_your_face (836916) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093610)

The Anarchist FAQ seemed very slow... Is the FBI behind the Slashdot effect?

Simple solution: (2, Insightful)

commo1 (709770) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093612)

DON'T....

KEEP...

LOGS....

Quite seriously, have a watchdog-type timer purge the records after a day or so. Chances are, anyone good enough to crack your well-maintained and patched box and do some nastys is going to be smart enough to mask his true ip-idetifiable location, and the user information can be kept safe.

Sites like this, along with, say, Anti-Microsoft sites are, as of yet, under no obligation to keep logs of who is posting. Allowing the FBI or other agencies access to this type of information is a recipe for misuse.

Re:Simple solution: (1)

ferat (971) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093705)

And keep those limited time logs in a ramdisk! That way when they come in and rip your equipment off the rack there's nothing at all to find, and you had nothing to do with it.

Re:Simple solution: (1)

OhPlz (168413) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093727)

The willfull, premeditated destruction of evidence is not very sound advice. If your actions as an admin hampers their investigation it's quite likely you would become one of the investigated, of a crime that can be readily proven (as in the scripts to destroy the logs or the config files preventing their creation).

Whirrr! (3, Insightful)

geekwithsoul (860466) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093624)

. . . sound of the Founding Fathers rolling over in their graves.

One has to wonder what would have happened if the British had such draconian measures in place say around the 1770s. Would they have locked up Ben Franklin for printing Thomas Paine's "Common Sense," and "The Rights of Man?"

Any regime (which is what the current administration has turned into) that cannot allow free speech should not be allowed to stand. Or at least I believe that's what Patrick Henry might say in this situation.

Re:Whirrr! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12093681)

probably. Although we do celebrate the only man entering the house of commons with honest intentions by setting fire to a bunch of fireworks.

Pervert hangout (-1, Troll)

bstadil (7110) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093649)

They should concentrate on notorious child porn hang outs like this [scouting.org] site.

Re:Pervert hangout (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12093704)

Great. Now when the FBI seizes THEIR logs, they're gonna find my IP. Thanks.

Staggers the Imagination (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12093665)

That complete paranoids like this one simply don't leave the country instead of perpetually living in fear that they will be assassinated at any moment.

Gag orders (5, Insightful)

slavemowgli (585321) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093687)

You know, what actually worries me more than the FBI's asking for server logs is the fact that (seemingly) every time something like this happens, a "gag order" is placed on the affected parties. It's a serious breach of the constitutional rights people enjoy; not only the right to free speech is affected, but also things like due process. A state which gathers evidence in secret is well on its way to a state that holds trials in secret, and THAT certainly is something none of us (here on Slashdot, anyway) want, no matter how we may disagree on other matters.

And of course, there is the fact that (like always) there does not even seem to be a good reason to place a gag order, short of "people aren't gonna like this and we want to avoid bad press"; I can see why the FBI wants to err on the (for them) "safe" side, but I think it's a dangerous path to take, for the reasons described above.

Oh well. I guess it just shows again that as a webmaster, you should not keep logs for longer than is absolutely necessary, and that as a user, you should use Tor [eff.org] or a similar tool to anonymise your browsing if you're visiting political websites (I wonder if Slashdot counts as one).

Gestapo methods. US = democracy? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12093690)

These methods to deal with information are used by totalitarian governments to monitor and suppress any opposition and are familiar from the Nazi regime, except that the internet did not exist back then.

I thought we are a democratic country that respects the constitutional rights of its people - am I wrong?

Contact the ACLU NY at once. (1)

Animats (122034) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093694)

The ACLU is already fighting the "national security letter" issue. [aclu.org] And they're winning. Judge Marrero wrote, in his decision: "Democracy abhors undue secrecy. . . . [A]n unlimited government warrant to conceal, effectively a form of secrecy per se, has no place in our open society."

Is there a real court order here, or is this just an FBI letter?

Hilarious (1)

Sloppy (14984) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093716)

They hold the position that the FBI is murderously untrustworthy, and yet they keep logs that the FBI could conceivably take by force.

So dumb.

If someone trusted the FBI and then, in a horrible act of betrayal, had their logs seized, I would be sympathetic. But these are the very kind of people that should have known better (or at least believed better), and it was within their power to not keep logs -- to prevent the existance of any seizably information.

This dude is advertising, to the whole world, that he is careless and doesn't practice what he preaches. Thanks for the entertainment.

I wouldn't doubt.. (1)

MoceanWorker (232487) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093719)

.. if this had anything to do with their ongoing investigation with the Red Lake HS school shooting. This is the FBI's first full investigation of a school shooting since it occurred on a Native American Reservation.

For all we know, it could be an excuse for them to justify their "demand"

Automatic log deletion on FBI caller-id (2, Interesting)

MCRocker (461060) | more than 9 years ago | (#12093731)

It's not uncommon to read posts that suggest that having a policy of deleting logs regularly might be prudent.

I was thinking that an extra measure of protection would be to add a script to automatically delete all logs as soon as any FBI phone number appears in the caller-id of an incoming phone call. The application could use a black(-ops;)-list of known phone numbers, exchanges and id strings for lawyers, organizations or agencies that are privacy challenged to check against for automatic deletion... hey, they keep black lists, why shouldn't privacy threatened groups?

The key question is, however, whether such a thing would be legal or interpreted as obstruction of justice? Having a policy of frequent deletion as a means of limiting exposure to privacy challenges doesn't seem to be a problem, but my proposed script might be. It might be possible to argue that before an actual request is received that preemptive deletion is not any different than frequent deletion. INAL, so I don't know, but it might be interesting to see what the courts think.
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