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Quake IV Confirmed For QuakeCon

Zonk posted more than 9 years ago | from the q4arena-expected-to-0wn dept.

First Person Shooters (Games) 119

Gamespot has the word that Quake IV will get some face time at QuakeCon this year. id CEO Hollenshead released the information at the Xbox Doom 3 launch event. From the article: "Over the past few years, PC game sales have either declined a little bit or stayed relatively flat, while console game sales have seen mostly double-digit growth. I don't know if we'll be releasing multiple SKUs at the same time, but as for PS3 and Xbox 2 and so on, yes, we will continue our development effort on the consoles."

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Xbox eat mouse (-1, Flamebait)

solowCX (796423) | more than 9 years ago | (#12139499)

My Xbox ate your mouse for dinner.

Re:Xbox eat mouse (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12139633)

Hmmm let me guess, did it design your website, too?

Re:Xbox eat mouse (-1, Offtopic)

MBraynard (653724) | more than 9 years ago | (#12139746)

His website is quiet nice. Shut up.

Re:Xbox eat mouse (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12143378)

Awww, don't get so bent out of shape over someone insulting your boyfriend. Just let it go, fag.

By the way, your boyfriend is a loser.

Re:Xbox eat mouse (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12145190)

1 point for you.

Grandparent is known fagot Jon Cox [mailto] .

See whois-info for his shit-site to get his address.

Note to Jon: Don't troll with your real name. The GNAA is known not to be hesitant in violently ass-rape young greasy caucasians like you.

P.S.: this one really hurt my eyes [phippy.com]

Frist Psot (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12139550)

I own joo.

Consoles (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12139554)

The problem is, consoles suck for FPS games.

There ain't no mouse or keyboard.

Re:Consoles (4, Informative)

mcslappy (830989) | more than 9 years ago | (#12139639)

one example of a ps2 keyboard can be found here: http://shop.store.yahoo.com/bre/blacplay2key.html [yahoo.com] mouse: http://www.ubid.com/actn/opn/getpage.asp?AuctionId =601416162&s=uwb70000 [ubid.com] adapter for keyboard and mouse for xbox http://www.lik-sang.com/info.php?category=&product s_id=5438 [lik-sang.com] these products do exist, and i suppose if you didn't own a computer, it might be a pretty decent deal

Re:Consoles (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12140332)

Yeah right, I'd like to see what a Playstation player with their low-ass frame rate could do.

Oh wait, I already know because I've played against them. They suck against my high-end nVidia powered Opteron system.

Re:Consoles (3, Informative)

CronoCloud (590650) | more than 9 years ago | (#12140072)

Why do you think the Playstation 2 has USB ports?

There's even an offically badged Playstation 2 mouse and keyboard: SCPH-10230 SCPH-10240, which are unavialable in stores.

Re:Consoles (2, Funny)

Elranzer (851411) | more than 9 years ago | (#12140134)

I don't know what the big controversy is. I thought PS2 [google.com] mice and keyboards have been out for a while now...

Re:Consoles (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12144308)

This tired joke is the biggest reason I'm looking forward to the Playstation 3.

PC game decline (3, Insightful)

OAB_X (818333) | more than 9 years ago | (#12139561)

A lot of the decline in PC games is the lack of marketing, lack of (good) original titles, and high initial cost to get started with it.

Lots of console games are being released on the PC, and a lot of PC games released on the consoles. Consoles attract more money to developers because there is a larger installed userbase, PC Gamers need to be a bit more tech savvy then their console brothers and sisters to get games to work, and the keyboard/mouse configuration is less intuitive then a gamepad.

Having said that, I like PC Gaming MUCH better.

Re:PC game decline (3, Insightful)

Black Pete (222858) | more than 9 years ago | (#12139830)

PC Gamers need to be a bit more tech savvy then their console brothers and sisters to get games to work

I can't agree with this enough. When you want to play a game on the console, all you have to do is walk into a store, buy the game, unwrap the box, pop a bottle of beer, pop the disc into the console, and you're playing.

This is not the case with the PC. You've got to have the latest drivers, make sure the drive is clutter-free, no background apps hogging all CPU resources, etc. before you finally pop in the disc to begin "installing" the game (and experience all the joys that goes with installing any game - CD shuffling, failed installs, etc.) I'm not even going to touch the Steam issue...

Why can't PC games just allow you to pop in a disc and begin playing? These days pretty much everyone should have a high-speed CD reader at the very least, if not a DVD drive, so the "games run faster on the HDD" excuse isn't a valid reason these days.

I consider myself a hardcore gamer -- heck I write game software for a living -- but these days I find myself buying console games specifically to avoid the hassles of PC gaming installation issues. After a long day of staring at code on a monitor, the last thing I want to do is tinker around with computers when I get home.

Re:PC game decline (4, Insightful)

nc_yori (870325) | more than 9 years ago | (#12140053)

As a programmer you should know that CD/DVD read speeds can't even compare to HDD read speeds. Playing from disc also hurts the issue of disk swapping ("Please insert Cinematics Disc.....Please insert Play Disc).

It's true that installation can be a pain in the ass, but playing from HDD means that I can bust out an ISO and put away my easy-to-break CD/DVD media in a safe place.

That also begs the issue of additional content. It's no trouble to download or purchase new content for games, or even to make my own. What if I want the new levels for Halo 2 but don't want to shell out for Xbox Live? I'm SOL.

I think this just proves that PC vs. console is an issue of preference. IMHO, the decline of PC gaming comes from lack of interest from publishers. How much longer does the PC port of GTA:San Andreas take to come out than the PS2 version? Will Devil May Cry 3 ever be on PC? What about Metal Gear Solid 3?

Re:PC game decline (2, Informative)

pnice (753704) | more than 9 years ago | (#12140946)

That also begs the issue of additional content. It's no trouble to download or purchase new content for games, or even to make my own. What if I want the new levels for Halo 2 but don't want to shell out for Xbox Live? I'm SOL.

For the most part your statement has been true with the Xbox and Xbox Live. As far as Halo 2 goes, you will be able to purchase all of the new multiplayer maps along with a documentary, a cinematic extra, all of the updates released so far, and some unannounced extras for around $19.95. The disc is supposed to release the same time as the maps are avalible for download on Xbox live...AND, if you want to get them on Xbox Live as soon as they are avalible I believe you will have to pay extra cash in addition to your Xbox Live subscription. By end of summer the new maps will be free for Xbox Live players.

I'm proud to annouce, in this particular case, you are not SOL...although in every other instance of new content on the Xbox thus far, you would be SOL.

http://xbox.ign.com/articles/599/599105p1.html [ign.com]

Re:PC game decline (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12147059)

What a load of rubbish - why have consoles been using disc-based media for the last decade then, with far less powerful drives than the latest PCs?

Sure there are loading times - most of the games I play in my Gamecube would have 1-2 seconds loading times at most. If loading times were so bad Sony would be shipping HD's with their consoles.

Re:PC game decline (1)

SScorpio (595836) | more than 9 years ago | (#12147215)

The Gamecube is a very bad example to use for load times as the drive and games are optimized to require just that 1-2 second load time you are seeing.

On the PS2 the load times can be very long, and the Xbox uses caching to the hard drive to help shorten some load times.

As for Sony shipping a hard drive with every PS2? Well it's kind of late in it's life for that to happen but we'll just have to wait and see if the PS3 will be including one. My bet it on that they do.

Re:PC game decline (1)

Lord Kano (13027) | more than 9 years ago | (#12147373)

I'm not sure if it's intentional, but developers seem to be missing the point of WHY PC game sales is slumping.

I haven't seen any reports, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that HL sold more than HL2.

PC Games will often silently avoid products that they don't like. Overly restrictive copy protection? I'll pass. Poor performance/stability? I'll pass. Shitty gameplay? I'll pass.

I didn't buy HL2. I didn't buy Daikatana. I didn't buy Quake 3. All for the aforementioned reasons.

A market-droid may see someone who behaves like me as a reason to shift focus to the Console world. I think that people like me are a reason to give gamers what they want.

iD made millions of dollars with Quake & Quake II. Piracy of those two games was rampant. I probably knew more people who ripped them off than bought them. But the developer/publisher made a success out of them because they were great games.

The industry needs to get back to that.

LK

Re:PC game decline (4, Insightful)

Satertek (708058) | more than 9 years ago | (#12140184)

Why can't PC games just allow you to pop in a disc and begin playing?

LiveCD Linux distros have really brought out the possiblility for this on the PC. Already there are LiveCDs with games like America's Army and the Return to Castle Wolfenstein expansion. Game saves could be stored on USB sticks or over the internet.

All it would take is one big company to step in a try it. And since PC games need to switch to the DVD format anyway, there would be plenty of space for the LiveCD Linux version, in addition to the Windows version of the game.

After looking around for any sign of life in this area, I couldn't find any. I'll guess that the game patches proved too much an inconvience, as the creator would have to remake the LiveCD after every update. It still looks like a promising area that should be looked into, however.

Linux aside, this should be an option in Windows as well. I personally would not use it, as I like being able to play games without scrambling for CDs, but it would be nice for games played infrequently.

Re:PC game decline (1)

ChoGGi (522069) | more than 9 years ago | (#12140667)

maybe it could be setup so the game maker has a program to download that'll make an ISO from the game data with the latest patches/mods

Re:PC game decline (1)

OAB_X (818333) | more than 9 years ago | (#12141018)

Microsoft is working on this already, /. had it, search for "tray and play."

Re:PC game decline (1)

gl4ss (559668) | more than 9 years ago | (#12141593)

remember self-booting floppy games from pc years and years back? they sucked even then.

rebooting just to play a game? just forget about the game then, nobodys going to play it.

Re:PC game decline (1)

aztektum (170569) | more than 9 years ago | (#12141798)

The mod community would be cut off at the knee's without actually having having the game installed straight to the system.

IMO, which I may be flamed for, the mod community is a large reason why PC games are even around much. Yeah sure some genres aren't console friendly (RTS games), but how many more copies of, say the KOTOR games, sold for Xbox than PC? Or any number of AAA titles sold on any console and PC.

For every Half-Life 2 type title on PC there is 5 that create as big a bruhaha in console gaming these days.

Re:PC game decline (1)

Dr. Manhattan (29720) | more than 9 years ago | (#12142804)

I'll guess that the game patches proved too much an inconvience, as the creator would have to remake the LiveCD after every update.

There are several ways to handle this. Consider the way Debian handles building CDs, it grabs a bunch of chunks and then stiches it together into a CD. Just update the chunks that need it and burn a new CD. No need to re-grab an entire ISO for an extra semicolon in a config file.

Even simpler is having some drivers to grab patches off the HD or even a USB stick as it's booting up. Then you don't have to re-burn at all.

Re:PC game decline (3, Insightful)

Elranzer (851411) | more than 9 years ago | (#12140193)

heck I write game software for a living -- but these days I find myself buying console games specifically to avoid the hassles of PC gaming installation issues.

How's Electronic Arts been hiring these days?

(Seriously, though, I agree with you. And I'd like to take it a step further.... these issues of swapping Play and Cinema discs, multi-disc installs, etc, would all be moot if the PC game companies would just switch to DVD-ROM. I sometimes wonder why I even have a DVD-ROM in my computer. Hasn't DVD technology been out for what, 10 years already?? Most people have a CD-RW/DVD-ROM combo or even a DVD+/-RW drive in their computer, let alone a DVD-ROM drive at all, so I don't think that's an issue. Why would a company who designs games specifically for $500 graphics cards worry that the PC gamer might not have a $20 DVD-ROM drive to play it from??)

Re:PC game decline (1)

Fred Or Alive (738779) | more than 9 years ago | (#12142310)

I suppose CD-ROM drives are the lowest common denominator. Everyone with a modern PC can read CD-ROMs, but they can't quite guarantee that everyone can read DVDs.

In the UK I think we have a few more games that are DVD only however, presumably becuase we're a smaller market and they only want to release one version.

Re:PC game decline (1)

KDR_11k (778916) | more than 9 years ago | (#12144662)

Actually I think DVD drive uptake in the US is rather slow, Europe is seeing many DVD-only releases while US versions tend to be CD-only. HL2 for example (if we ignore the collector's edition) was released on CDs in the US and on one DVD in Europe. Perimeter is only available on DVD here. Of course you won't see EA release DVD versions of their games, they're greedy and want those people with only CD drives as well.

Re:PC game decline (2)

harrkev (623093) | more than 9 years ago | (#12145470)

Perhaps. but the parent of your post has a BIG point... The "lowest common denominator" is NOT going to run HL2 or Doom3. That $299 e-machines won't have the graphical cajones. Neither will that top-of-the-line gaming system from four years ago. It takes a modern system to be able to run modern FPS. Modern systems have DVD drives. Period.

Re:PC game decline (2)

C0rinthian (770164) | more than 9 years ago | (#12140272)

I picked up my first console game in years this week. God of War for PS2.

I forgot how nice it is to chill on a couch and game...

Re:PC game decline (1)

brkello (642429) | more than 9 years ago | (#12144058)

I find it hard to believe you write game software for a living and have to ask: "Why can't PC games just allow you to pop in a disc and begin playing?" What do you think that would do? Sure, avoid the installation up front...but what else? It doesn't magically make it a console. It still has to support all kinds of different graphic cards/hardware. It still is going to require all of the tweaks it would have than it was on your HD. The big difference is now it will load slower (yes, it is still faster off the HD) and you have to hear the disc spin up everytime it needs to load something. Brilliant, why didn't any one think of this before?

Stop trying to make the PC in to a console...it's not one. Part of the reason people like PC gaming is because they have the control to make the game as pretty (or fast) as possible. The mouse/keyboard is far superior interface to a game pad for FPS any day of the week.

You exagerate the problem. Generally you don't need to update anything to play a PC game unless you are getting the next cutting edge game from ID. You don't have to check for background apps or anything stupid like that. The real problem sounds like you aren't very good with computers...which is fine, but it isn't such a big deal. And your solution to this problem of just making it so you can drop a game in the drive and start playing shows how little you understand the problem. Just stick with console gaming if that is what you desire. PC gaming is different, and those who want to will figure out how to get things to work easily.

Re:PC game decline (1)

bersl2 (689221) | more than 9 years ago | (#12141631)

If commercial PC gaming tanks, non-commercial efforts will receive at least some of that talent.

One thing that will never be true about a console (because as I see it, it is the differentiating charicteristic) is that you can easily develop for it. Console development always involves buying a special box, and a special this, and a special that, and so on. Furthermore, the mod programmers won't be able to cross over without gargantuan support from various companies; and in that case, it really depends on who's running the show. Epic's Make Something Unreal contest was very well done, while the prototype for a company fucking things up is Valve. You-know-what wasn't the same after Valve came into that picture, and all the true gamers were driven away.

And my sleeping medicine is starting to kick in. Ooo... wavy screen... ^____^ It's funny how the bars are shrinking and growing... ok bybye now!

Re:PC game decline (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12141845)

"If commercial PC gaming tanks, non-commercial efforts will receive at least some of that talent."

Hate to rain on your parade, but this is just plain wrong. People who currently develop commercial PC games are salaried professionals. If PC gaming vanishes, they won't start doing what they did before for money for free (or significantly less money). Rather, they'll just follow their employer's line and start developing for consoles. The majority of games developers aren't actually religious enough about the platforms they develop for to throw away a job over it.

Are you kidding???? (4, Interesting)

SvnLyrBrto (62138) | more than 9 years ago | (#12141645)

> and the keyboard/mouse configuration is less intuitive
> then a gamepad.

If you're NOT kidding, you're completely out of your mind.

Back in college, I had a group of non-CS-major friends who thought they were hot stuff on Goldeneye, for the N64. As I understand it, Goldeneye is STILL considered just about the best console FPS, and one of the best N64 games, ever released. I thought it was rather low-quality and pedestrian, myself. But whatever. A couple of them could even beat the game on "00 Level". Oooooo...

Eventually, I finally got them to come into the lab at night, and set up a Quake 2 deathmatch. For starters, only being able to play a game with just four people at a time, and being confined to one corner of the screen is lame. But I digress. I spanked them... even the "I finished Goldeneye on 00 Level" guys. And I don't just mean I won. I totally dominated. And on real FPSs, I was never really even that GOOD.... strictly average. But playing with those POS console controllers, and their associated crutches (cheats like auto-aim, for example) instilled so many bad habits into them that even the best were all but helpless against just an average "mouse and keyboard" player.

It'll be interesting to see if the xBox2 and PS3 versions of Q4 will be able to play on-line against the real version. Specifically, it'd be interesting to see the deathmatch kill stats between them. I'd bet good money that said stats would bear me out.

cya,
john

Re:Are you kidding???? (1)

OAB_X (818333) | more than 9 years ago | (#12141725)

I never said that it was not superior (which it is) but that it was less intuitive. You fumble around for a long time with the mouse/keyboard getting used to things like "mouse look" and all that, whereas with Goldeneye, you could pick up and play it with the "1.1 Honey" config very easily, joystick move, no mouse look, z is fire. Granted, goldeneye never really needed to have looking (you could switch to 1.2 solitaire if you wanted that, which I did once I discovered it).

Re:Are you kidding???? (4, Insightful)

JonathanBoyd (644397) | more than 9 years ago | (#12142270)

If you're NOT kidding, you're completely out of your mind. [snip] I spanked them... even the "I finished Goldeneye on 00 Level" guys. And I don't just mean I won. I totally dominated. And on real FPSs, I was never really even that GOOD.... strictly average. But playing with those POS console controllers, and their associated crutches (cheats like auto-aim, for example) instilled so many bad habits into them that even the best were all but helpless against just an average "mouse and keyboard" player.

Surely this proves the point? If a mouse and keyboard was more intuitive and easier to pick up than a controller, then they wouldn't have had too many problems playing against you.

Oh and mocking beating the game on 00 agent mode without having done it yourself doesn't add any credibility to your claims. Same goes for your lack of knowledge that auto-aim can be turned off for multiplayer.

Re:Are you kidding???? (1)

Zangief (461457) | more than 9 years ago | (#12147251)

And what good was that? Did those guys switched over to PC gaming? Or the moral of the story is that you kicked some ass at quake 2?

The control pad is more comfortable, anyway.

Also, Quake 2 and GoldenEye are very different games. In goldeneye you cannot jump, for god sake! This is just as stupid as being good at soccer, challenge the basketball team to a match, and then boasting about how the stupid basketball team was not good at soccer, because they are so used to use hands to pass the ball, and cheats like having no goalie.

Re:Are you kidding???? (1)

SScorpio (595836) | more than 9 years ago | (#12147358)

I can't comment from first hand experience but the Dreamcast version of Quake 3: Arena was playable online against the PC version. And well... the console kiddies got their asses handed to them. Thankfully the Dreamcast and the Quake 3 port both support a keyboard and mouse so people could use them instead.

As for Quake 4 on the Xbox being playable again PC players? Not unless MS changes how they handle live, which it appears that they are in DX 10, but we'll have to see what they do. The PS3 version of Quake 4 should easily be playable against PC versions unless Sony does something stupid with their online play.

Re:Are you kidding???? (1)

teh_dg (800496) | more than 9 years ago | (#12149596)

Goldeneye had a well designed control system, on an unusually suitable controller. But, the main thing that made Goldeneye so good was that the game was not designed to be a mouse+kb game with some pad controls hacked on. Instead, what they did was design Goldeneye with the controller in mind. Mouse and keyboard would have sucked for Goldeneye, even worse than the same N64 controller did for QuakeII.

People say different games work better on different input hardware all the time, but then follow on with some example like Tekken vs Quake, always crossing genre. It makes for convenient examples, but also implies the main reason is genre, when it's actually game design.

PS. aim-assist was only for the easy difficulty levels on Goldeneye, and not normally enabled for multiplayer. I found it harder to land headshots quickly with it anyway. Speaking of aim-assist, there's plenty of PC gamers using that online :/

Re:PC game decline (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12144321)

I think another big factor is that PC games' art has to look a lot better because PC gamers tend not to appreciate a game at the low visual quality and resolution of a regular TV (640x480 interlaced). Art is expensive.

Re:PC game decline (1)

Alban (86010) | more than 9 years ago | (#12149826)

PC games development as a high initial cost to get started with??!?!? Do you have any idea how much ps2 or xbox devkits cost? And that's only if you are approved by sony or microsoft to actually develop games for their platforms.

Re:PC game decline (1)

Alban (86010) | more than 9 years ago | (#12149848)

Whoops, I put my foot in my mouth. You of course meant the cost for the gamer to actually own a decent PC system. Sorry!

Re:PC game decline (1)

OAB_X (818333) | more than 9 years ago | (#12150064)

High initial cost to buy a PC capable of gaming, which is what I said, I talked about development in a seperate paragraph.

Mouse and keyboards (2, Interesting)

mfterman (2719) | more than 9 years ago | (#12139724)

My own feeling is that it's only a matter of time before consoles start getting USB mice and keyboards as standard or at least common equipment for consoles. Consoles are slowly but surely evolving into low end dedicated gaming PCs. When that happens, I tend to expect that there will be an even sharper decline in PC games produced, though for moddable games, I expect PCs to be around as the modding development platform of choice.

Re:Mouse and keyboards (1)

Mahou (873114) | more than 9 years ago | (#12139808)

from what i've heard of ps3 and xbox2, which granted isn't very much at all, 'low end' is not a very accurate description in any sense of the phrase

Re:Mouse and keyboards (1)

falcon5768 (629591) | more than 9 years ago | (#12139823)

if the chips being used in all three of them (power5) and the fact Nintendo is making 802.11g standard on their next system is any indication low end doesnt even come close.

Re:Mouse and keyboards (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12139873)

I still love RC Pro Am.
They're all low-end if they can't play that, in my book.

Re:Mouse and keyboards (3, Interesting)

imitier (674794) | more than 9 years ago | (#12139886)

As someone who until recently did all his FPS gaming on consoles, I have to say I prefer a dual-analog controller over a mouse and keyboard. Having recently built a PC that can play games like Half-Life 2 and Unreal Tournamentl 2004, I'm catching up on a backlog of PC gaming, but I find the mouse and keyboard combo to feel somewhat unnatural, and a lot less immersive, than a console-style dual analog controller (PS2 or XBox, take your pick.) I understand that the mouse and keyboard is probably faster and more accurate, especially if that's what you're used to, but even with that in mind, it just doesn't feel good to me. I spend all day working with a mouse and keyboard -- I don't want to use the same equipment to play games. Playing FPS with dual sticks just feels more immersive to me -- the increased precision of a mouse and keyboard doesn't make up for the loss of immersion.

Now, that's just my opinion, and I wouldn't claim to speak for anyone else on the matter, but all the same I wouldn't be so sure that everyone playing FPS on consoles is in a rush to get a mouse and keyboard set up.

Re:Mouse and keyboards (5, Insightful)

kafka47 (801886) | more than 9 years ago | (#12139946)

As someone who until recently did all his FPS gaming on consoles, I have to say I prefer a dual-analog controller over a mouse and keyboard.

I would invite you to bring your favourite FPS game and your dual-analog controller online... and play against us PC-based mouse users anytime. :-)

I wouldn't be so sure that everyone playing FPS on consoles is in a rush to get a mouse and keyboard set up

They will if it means not losing anymore. :-)
/Kafka

Re:Mouse and keyboards (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12141853)

Who the hell modded this insightful? It completely misses the point.

By and large, people playing console fpses on dual-analogue controllers do NOT play against people playing fpses on a mouse and keyboard. It doesn't matter that a PC player would beat you... you're never going to play him. There's a big imbalance in the PC gaming market; for years now, the fps scene has been about who has the best system, display, mouse etc. A mediocre player can improve their performance by upgrading their system. In the console arena, people are almost always playing on standard hardware.

I look through this thread at the number of "OMG consoles suck, my PC could 0wnz0r them and with my mouse and keyboard I COULD BEAT ANY CONSOLE PLAYER" replies. Part of me wonders how many of these posters are just afraid of a level playing field.

Re:Mouse and keyboards (1)

Scooter (8281) | more than 9 years ago | (#12143420)

I agree you've got to compare like with like, but having tried both, I just feel like my shoelaces are tied together on a console controller, so even in a single player offline game, it just doesn't offer the same intuitive and fluid moves you can perform with a mouse/KB.

As a PC gamer - I would welcome a level playing field, and this is perhaps the one thing I would envy from the console world. I have to say, I don't think the field is as bumpy as it used to be though: in the Quake2 days, kit made a massive difference, but recent FPS games seem to move at a much slower pace and have the game tactics "programmed in" in terms of classes, and other in-game features. So the frame rate has less of an effect.

I guess the strange console controllers have their roots in the more casual origins of console gaming - you played on the sofa, and probably passed the controller around if your mates came round. The games were uncomplicated and easy to pick up. These days though, you can get some pretty involved "hardcore" FPS games for consoles, and many PC games have also been ported as the console hardware got big enough numbers to support it. I'm willing to bet (not a lot, but a bet all the same) that the players of these console games are serious enough to have a dedicated TV/Monitor on their console in another room, and so could easily use a mouse/KB combo on a desktop. Maybe not a keyboard as we understand it, but a dedicated button pad, together with a regular mouse. I reckon most dedicated console gamers would prefer it. Maybe online servers could be labelled up as either causual/novice or hardcore. In fact, maybe the console would not let you join a newbie server with a keyboard/mouse... Keyboards and mice are cheap. Consoles have USB ports.

Quake, unlike most other FPS games, needs to be played fast - and if you're lumbered with a joypad, you're not really experiencing the game as it's meant to be, online or offline. In the words of Ben Kenobi, to Luke as he lay fragged in the snow on the Hoth map: "Use the *mouse* luke!"

Re:Mouse and keyboards (1)

rhuntley12 (621658) | more than 9 years ago | (#12142202)

Actually you might be surprised. I've played both extensivly and once you get the hang of it and what not I think for headshots on a lot of games are easier on consoles. It's much easier to have the crosshair at the right height and whatnot. There is also a thing called the smartjoy-frag or what not that lets you play Xbox with a mouse, it hasn't seemed to help people I know enough.

Re:Mouse and keyboards (1)

dzym (544085) | more than 9 years ago | (#12143988)

That would be because it still has to translate those smooth moves you're attempting for a game that's expecting analog or pad style input.

And frankly, on PC we don't generally have the huge allowances (and the crutch) that's usually present in the form of autoaiming on console FPS titles.

So, suck it.

Re:Mouse and keyboards (1)

DeadScreenSky (666442) | more than 9 years ago | (#12150846)

How did you manage to quote two parts of the parent post while missing this part?
I understand that the mouse and keyboard is probably faster and more accurate, especially if that's what you're used to, but even with that in mind, it just doesn't feel good to me. I spend all day working with a mouse and keyboard -- I don't want to use the same equipment to play games.
What does your comment have to do with what you responded to? It is just some pointless and misguided "FPS games should only be played with mice and keyboard because headshots are all that matter" nonsense. Way to miss the point.

Re:Mouse and keyboards (2, Insightful)

snuf23 (182335) | more than 9 years ago | (#12139968)

It's what you are used to. If you started on a dual analog with FPS games you are "wired" for that. Your natural responses are in tune to that controller.
For me playing an FPS on a console, feels like I have mittens on or something. It is awkward and imprecise. This is however, because it's the controller I am used to.
They both have their merits. Consider that the mouse is a much more accurate aiming device, however the controller is much better for setting on the couch type of gaming. We won't see mice and keyboards become standard for consoles, because no one wants a desk and chair blocking the living room TV. The difference is the same reason that there are more two player on a single console games than there are two player on a single computer games. It is the environment that is dictating the controls.

Re:Mouse and keyboards (1)

2TecTom (311314) | more than 9 years ago | (#12140424)

No, so sorry, but it's not as simple as what one is used to. I do tend to agree with you at lower skill levels but please consider that controllers are never used by any competitive FPS'ers.

Fatality and the like are strictly mousemen.

Re:Mouse and keyboards (1)

snuf23 (182335) | more than 9 years ago | (#12140469)

You mean to say that in Halo 2 tournaments all of the top players whip out their mice?
As far as I've seen, the mice/keyboard adapters for consoles don't work all that well since the console games aiming is programmed differently for use with a controller (i.e. the tap to auto aim).
Sure in PC games no one is using a controller, I wouldn't argue that.

Re:Mouse and keyboards (1)

2TecTom (311314) | more than 9 years ago | (#12140560)

Sorry if that wasn't clear. I was, of course, only referring to LAN parties. Personally, I've never been to a console tournament.

As well, I think you exactly nailed it. I absolutely agree with you in that controllers seem more far more effective and common in regards to consoles than a mouse keyboard combination.

Re:Mouse and keyboards (1)

irc.goatse.cx troll (593289) | more than 9 years ago | (#12140773)

And in bakeoffs they use ovens. Meanwhile us real FPS gamers will stick to our high precision input devices and let you guys have the game aim for you(We call that cheating, btw, but when its impossible to have any precision anyways..)

Joysticks are great for simple games. Playing tetris with a keyboard is a pain, even worse is playing a fighter or even a side scroller. But playing a FPS game with a joystick leads to very impercise aiming (Compare any controller to an mx1000 or razer diamondback) and bulky functionality, eg having to scroll through weapons with only two keys instead of binding different keys for different weapons.

Equally bad is trying to play an RTS game with a joystick. You need to easily be able to highlight a group of units instantly and accurately, then slap one of your dozens(including modifier keys) of micromanagement hotkeys. On a joystick you'd never get anything done.

Leave consoles for toying around and PCs for real competition.

Re:Mouse and keyboards (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12141886)

Yay, another fine example of the wonderful, arrogant posts we get about "real gaming". I love the way that people who consider themselves "hardcore" gamers need to go on about their skill levels constantly and put down those who play other games. It seems to me that there's a fundamental misunderstanding of what actually constitutes "skill" here.

Simply put, "skill" in a game is the ability to perform well within the constraints of the game. Is Kasparov a poor chess player because he can only move the Bishops diagonally? I'm actually a PC fps player historically and while I've messed around with Halo 2 over Live, I don't consider myself particularly good at it. However, if you watch a few of the top-level Halo 2 players fighting, the level of skill is on a par with anything in the PC gaming world.

In many ways, console gaming will prove to be a better determinant of skill in the long run. On a console, everybody is forced to use the same hardware and input devices. On a PC, the player with the better (and usually more expensive) hardware will have an inate advantage, allowing a mediocre player with richer parents to beat a more skilled player on a basic system.

Re:Mouse and keyboards (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12144535)

On a PC, the player with the better (and usually more expensive) hardware will have an inate advantage, allowing a mediocre player with richer parents to beat a more skilled player on a basic system.

Au contraire! The best PC FPS players turn off all extraneous graphic effects. Players with high-end systems with all effects turned on may actually be at a disadvantage in some cases, e.g. hiding in tall grass that isn't rendered on the opponent's system, or vice versa. What you say is true up to a point, but any computing power beyond what is necessary to render the game world at a consistently high frame rate is unnecessary in competitive play.

Re:Mouse and keyboards (1)

snuf23 (182335) | more than 9 years ago | (#12148010)

High frame rate AND high resolution. It really helps with targetting far away opponents to have the game running at high res.
There is a part of me that thinks this approach when taken to extremes is essentially cheating. Like turning off the dynamic lighting in Doom 3. Sure, it makes it easier to see and kill players - but it changes the deathmatch into something like Quake, rather than the hide in the shadows style.

Re:Mouse and keyboards (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12150626)

Carmack isn't an idiot - you CAN'T turn off shadows in online play. (Yeah, I'm sure you can crack it.)

Since my pc gets 15 fps with shadows on and 30 without them, it means I can't play D3 online with any hope of hitting anyone. Which is a shame, but I respect the reasons behind it.

-Linux Doom player

Re:Mouse and keyboards (1)

elasticwings (758452) | more than 9 years ago | (#12142618)

Ugh, that reminds me of the time I attempted to play Diablo on a Playstation. I'd beaten the game dozens of times on the PC in Hell difficulty, but when I tried to play it on the Playstation with a controller... I died on the first level. Some things are just meant to be played with a mouse and keyboard.

Re:Mouse and keyboards (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12144254)

Diablo is known to be a notoriously poor port of a PC game to console. There's numerous 3PS's around (third person shooters) that don't suffer from such botched controls. The Dark Alliance games come to mind.

Re:Mouse and keyboards (1)

CronoCloud (590650) | more than 9 years ago | (#12149934)

Actually its a good port, but the game predates the introduction of the Dual Shock so it has no analog movement.

Almost every PS2/PSP Diablo-like uses similar controls but the analog sticks free up the joypad for skill/weapon selection.

Re:Mouse and keyboards (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12147514)

AFAIK a mouse was released for the PSX and the Diablo port supported it. I guess the developers felt the same way you do.

Re:Mouse and keyboards (1)

CronoCloud (590650) | more than 9 years ago | (#12149956)

Yes there's a PSOne mouse, but Diablo doesn't support it. Played fine without mouse suppor.

The PSone port of Quake II, however, was a game that did play better with the PSone mouse. I grew to like the hybrid Dual Shock/mouse control and use it in the PS2 FPS's that support it.

Re:Mouse and keyboards (1)

CronoCloud (590650) | more than 9 years ago | (#12149886)

IMHO the PSone version of Diablo is "harder" than the PC version. It controls fine though, enable the "combo button" and "relative" movement. You also have to remember to keep the game speed at "normal" (PSone Diablo has a "Fast" speed setting, and boy is it fast)

Re:Mouse and keyboards (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12144230)

Meanwhile us real FPS gamers will stick to our high precision input devices and let you guys have the game aim for you(We call that cheating, btw, but when its impossible to have any precision anyways..)

Huh. Some of us like to have fun instead of basing our self worth off our skills at a particular controller configuration. Sad.

Re:Mouse and keyboards (2, Interesting)

Rayonic (462789) | more than 9 years ago | (#12141021)

You could take a typical modern console gamepad, and replace the rightmost analog stick with a small-ish trackball.

Thus the trackball would be for mouselook, the left analog stick would be for movement (like WASD, but more precise), and the shoulder buttons could be for fire, jump, etc.

Re:Mouse and keyboards (1)

theclam159 (833616) | more than 9 years ago | (#12141477)

It still wouldn't work. Try bunnyhopping with a controller, regardless of the configuration. You have to bend your fingers into extremely irregular configurations, whereas with a PC, all you need to do is press a few keyboard buttons and move your mouse in a rythmic pattern.

Re:Mouse and keyboards (1)

Rayonic (462789) | more than 9 years ago | (#12144580)

Huh? Why wouldn't the jump button be mapped to a shoulder button? Just keep tapping that and move the trackball in a rhythmic pattern. Picture a Playstation controller, which has four shoulder buttons that your fingers are natually over anyways. The face buttons and D-pad would not be used for quick-reaction actions such as fire, jump, crouch, etc.

Beyond FPSes, a nice trackball would make moving a pointer around more bearable. Good for point-and-click adventures and RTS games.

Re:Mouse and keyboards (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12150948)

You say that like it's a bad thing. Lots of modern RTSs have taken steps to stop people from bunny hopping.

Re:Mouse and keyboards (1)

Zangief (461457) | more than 9 years ago | (#12147318)

Are trackballs more precise than analog sticks?

I have tried them, and they mostly suck.

Re:Mouse and keyboards (1)

Rayonic (462789) | more than 9 years ago | (#12147506)

I have no problem using a thumb-mounted trackball for FPS games. Depends on the model, I suppose.

The idea of a trackball in place of an analog stick is that movement can be fast but still accurate. 180 degree turns in a split second, as opposed to 4 seconds with a typical analog stick setup.

The only alternative is integrating a mouse into the controller, but then you'd have to rub it around on a flat surface. Sounds pretty silly to me.

Re:Mouse and keyboards (1)

CronoCloud (590650) | more than 9 years ago | (#12140125)

I'm sort of in the same boat. I can't stand WASD. I use a Dual Shock for movement and the mouse for aiming, it works well for me in the PSone/PS2 games that I have that support it.

Re:Mouse and keyboards (2, Funny)

Elranzer (851411) | more than 9 years ago | (#12140223)

You shouldn't be throwing words like "Immersive" and "Dual Shock" around together in sentences like that. Sony might get upset [slashdot.org] .

Auto-aiming Is Your Friend (1)

BRock97 (17460) | more than 9 years ago | (#12148532)

" As someone who until recently did all his FPS gaming on consoles, I have to say I prefer a dual-analog controller over a mouse and keyboard."

You do realize that your console FPS is taking up some of the slack your joystick introduces by doing a little auto aiming for you, right?

Huh? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12139734)

All these games with graphics are overdoing it
try a MUD like Medievia.com
I'm Sumix look me up.

Quake IV... (3, Funny)

Geraden (15689) | more than 9 years ago | (#12139835)

but still no Duke Nukem Forever.

console fun (1)

gcnaddict (841664) | more than 9 years ago | (#12140284)

well good itll be for consoles too :D i hope the console versions can play online against the PC versions ^_^

More Space Marines (2, Insightful)

superpulpsicle (533373) | more than 9 years ago | (#12140296)

When Doom 2 disappeared, Quake filled the space marine void for the gaming industry. If someone made the game less dark, literally Quake 1, 2, 3 could have been Doom 3, 4, 5.

This will be the first time Doom III and Quake IV reach a prime more or less together. Some hardcore gamers might dispute, but besides the monsters and the weapons... the backdrop is way similar.

Re:More Space Marines (3, Insightful)

edwdig (47888) | more than 9 years ago | (#12141082)

Quake 1 felt totally different than Doom. Quake's atmosphere felt medieval. Replace the shotgun with a crossbow and you could've released Quake as a sequel to Heretic.

Quake 2 I can't really comment on. To me it felt totally different than Quake 1, and never managed to hold my interest past level 2 or so.

Re:More Space Marines (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12142030)

There's a reson for that: They weren't sure if Quake was going to be a middle-ages or a sci-fi game when they were making the maps; it was only at the last minute that the game became sci-fi.

sweeet ... I can't wait to play the next Quake (1, Interesting)

2TecTom (311314) | more than 9 years ago | (#12140385)

If Doom was any indication of the visuals going into Q4, I'm anticipating an awesome game. I, for one, have gotten more entertainment from Id and John Carmack than from any other company or person. As far as I'm concerned, Id rocks like no other. Thanks guys. Please, keep up the good work.

Oh, and by the way, consoles are for kids!

Re:sweeet ... I can't wait to play the next Quake (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12142043)

" If Doom was any indication of the visuals going into Q4, I'm anticipating an awesome game."

Right, because graphics = gameplay. Idiot.

Re:sweeet ... I can't wait to play the next Quake (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12144734)

lol, so what, you're still playing pong then? btw, nice attitude, dood

Re:sweeet ... I can't wait to play the next Quake (2, Insightful)

Rallion (711805) | more than 9 years ago | (#12142357)

If Doom was any indication of the visuals going into Q4, I'm anticipating an awesome game.

If Doom was any indication of the gameplay going into Q4, I'm anticipating a terrible game.

Re:sweeet ... I can't wait to play the next Quake (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12142480)

Where the hell does all the "Doom 3 sucks" stuff actually come from? So far as I could see, Doom 3 delivered exactly what was promised. It was a fairly long, deeply atmospheric first person shooter, with ground-breaking technology. It delivered this very well. It never set out to be another Farcry or Half-Life 2. Sure, it had some flaws, such as a lack of variety in the later stages, but it's still a hell of an impressive achievement when put alongside ID's earlier games.

Re:sweeet ... I can't wait to play the next Quake (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12144033)

At least to me, Doom 3 felt like a prettified Doom 2 with all the lights turned off. Plus, nobody liked the whole "choose between a flashlight or your gun" mechanic, to the extent that mods exist to change just that.

Re:sweeet ... I can't wait to play the next Quake (1)

2TecTom (311314) | more than 9 years ago | (#12144612)

different game, different play ...

There is no sadder sight than a young pessimist, except an old optimist. ~ Mark Twain

Let it go ID let it go (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12141786)

After Doom 3 flop they want to destroy the Quake franchise too, hey you can't deny this guys always go the whole 9 yards even for bad.

Multiplayer? (1)

biglig2 (89374) | more than 9 years ago | (#12142235)

Did you notice that he talked about showing the multiplayer component of Q4?

This wording would seem to imply that it also has a single player component, or am I reading too much into it?

Re:Multiplayer? (2, Informative)

cyxxon (773198) | more than 9 years ago | (#12142485)

Ahm, your wording now seems to imply that you do not know that Quake IV is a sequel to Quake 2, not Quake III Arena, meaning its focus is on a single player campaign with the theme and setting from Quake 2 (Stroggos).

Somewhere some Raven dude said they would include a multiplayer mode that tried to recapture Q3As feeling - haven't heard more on that though lately.

Re:Multiplayer? (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12142724)

Can't seem to find the URL at the moment, but I've certainly heard that Quake 4 is a single-player oriented sequel to Quake 2. I think there was originally talk of Quake 3 style multiplayer, but this vanished around the time that more details of the Doom 3 engine (such as minimum specifications and network model) because apparent. From what I've heard, the Doom 3 netcode just doesn't scale all that well above four players. You can do it - it just won't behave nicely.

Basically, I wouldn't get your hopes up for Quake 4 to be the next big "competition" fps. I suspect that title will eventually go to either Halo 2 or a new version of Counter-Strike. My main hope for Quake 4's multiplayer is that it will actually give us a co-op mode.

Re:Multiplayer? (1)

88NoSoup4U88 (721233) | more than 9 years ago | (#12146444)

"Somewhere some Raven dude said they would include a multiplayer mode that tried to recapture Q3As feeling - haven't heard more on that though lately.

The last I heard of the MP part of Quake 4 is that it would not contain the limit that is imposed on D3 (8 players max), but it will be going back to higher playercounts. Also, the maps would show that the D3-engine is not only limited to indoors dark maps.

Also, vehicles(gametypes) were to be included.

Really looking forward to Q4, as Doom 3's multiplayer part really disappointed me.

double digit growth... hmm (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12142387)

I wonder if tighter laws on modchips and the double digit growth in console games have any correlation???

I wonder.

PC Sales (2, Insightful)

Taulin (569009) | more than 9 years ago | (#12142838)

I still remember the days when Nintendo games first started being rented out in video stores. PC Games were incredibly lacking at the time, and a friend casually asked a video store clerk when they will start renting out PC Games? They said they wouldn't because the market is much smaller. Even though PC Games grew incredibly over the next 20 years, the market in terms of number of games and originality has always been smaller than consoles. Hastings tried renting out PC games in the mid-90s, but stopped from either lack of rentals, or probably the hassle of people complaining they couldn't get the game running on their system (or piracy since CD burners just came out). In the end, I think 'the market' has a hard time looking at PCs as a game venue because of how retail outlets treat them.

About PC gaming... (3, Interesting)

AzraelKans (697974) | more than 9 years ago | (#12144822)

PC gaming quite simply can not die And never will. Its impossible for a small independent company to release a game in any other platform and its more technologically advanced that any console in the market (and will always be since is upgradeable) MS mentioned in their keynote the PC will always a great lab for gaming and gameplay (and for once they are right).

Its expensive for developers to release boxed games for Pc's thats true. But is not as much if they get rid of the box and provide it as downloadable content. Im not sure how efficient that method is. But it certainly is the less expensive choice for any developer (no royalties to pay, no publishing, no international/national orders shipping and handling, nothing! all they need is a pc port of their game , a cc handler and a download source, thats it) another cool detail is that since pc gaming is less populated it could actually be considered a "niche" of sorts.

The only actual problem with pc gaming I see now, is how video card manufacturers are basically self destroying a part of the market, most probably they are aware than their newer card prices are unreachable for almost any pc enthusiast. Yet, they try to set them as the industry "standard" news flash: you can only call it an standard if the majority of the population prefers it over alternatives. (I mean seriously why cant new games WORK with an ati 9200 ? or geforce mx,5200 cards? those are actually affordable cards and to my knowledge they are still available in a good ammount of pcs)

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