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Sun's Schwartz Attacks GPL

CmdrTaco posted more than 9 years ago | from the release-the-claws dept.

Sun Microsystems 625

jskelly writes "Sun Micro President Jonathan Schwartz attacked the GPL at the Open Source Business Conference in San Francisco yesterday.Other than the same old arguments (you can't make it proprietary later) he adds that it imposes on developing nations "a rather predatory obligation to disgorge all their IP back to the wealthiest nation in the world" -- but fails to mention that the converse is also true: the wealthiest nation in the world is similarly, under the GPL, forced to "disgorge all its IP back to the developing nations" as well. Duh!"

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Frosty piss? (-1, Offtopic)

Bongoots (795869) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154796)

Nearly 1000 people listening to the biggest hardcore radio station in the world!! :D

DJ Silver is playing *LIVE* from Japan and going overtime now.

Listen in from http://www.di.fm/mp3/hardcore96k.pls [www.di.fm] http://www.DI.fm [www.di.fm] or http://www.HappyHardcore.com [happyhardcore.com] !!

Re:Frosty piss? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12154866)

While this is off topic, it would be awesome to break 1000.

Re:Frosty piss? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12155149)

You have wretched taste in music.

Try listening to some real hardcore, not hardcore techno garbage. Give Dillinger or Cephalic Carnage some time. Not that they're fantastic, but hardcore techno is the shittiest shit I've had the opportunity to experience in this life.

first post? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12154799)

FP

fp (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12154801)

fp:P

first post (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12154803)

i love the gnaa

- waggly cocks

ahh.. (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12154805)

..i see your swartz is less open than mine..

Is this... (0, Flamebait)

rbochan (827946) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154823)

... something new for Schwartz, or did I miss a memo somewhere?

Re:Is this... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12154938)

Nah. This is pretty much typical Schwartz behavior. he's a top of the line douchebag.

Nothing wrong with hating the GPL... (4, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12154835)

Just don't use GPL'd code and write it all yourself.

Re:Nothing wrong with hating the GPL... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12154911)

No, they want full rights to your work for free silly!

Re:Nothing wrong with hating the GPL... (0, Flamebait)

MySmurfPossesseth (873868) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154919)

Or find enough LGPL'd code that you can write in the rest yourself easily. Either way, no need to send code back.

Re:Nothing wrong with hating the GPL... (1, Troll)

tarponbill (621392) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154997)

" Just don't use GPL'd code and write it all yourself."

Yep that's the ticket -- Use OpenSolaris instead.

Don't you just love it when the Linux Bigots think ecveryone should be in business to give away all they develop with their money.

We switched to OpenSolaris. It's great. Some day, the Linux crowd will see the light, but probably be too late.

Wonder why the Mozilla foundation isn't attacked the way Sun is, they use the same license.

So tell me again why should I spend my money developing software and just give it away?

Re:Nothing wrong with hating the GPL... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12155048)

So tell me again why should I spend my money developing software and just give it away?

If you're in the software development business, and you don't have some sort of a service model, well, you probably shouldn't be giving it away.

However, if you work in the many, many other fields that require software but don't develop it yourself, open source is perfect for cutting costs and increasing stability.

Re:Nothing wrong with hating the GPL... (2, Informative)

n0-0p (325773) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155187)

You're kidding right? The MPL tri-license includes the MPL, GPL, and LGPL. All of the Mozilla apps are distributed this way; the MPL portion allows for certain proprietary binary components like the talkback debugger and installer in the binary only distributions. The CDDL is *similar* to the MPL portion, but is not compatible with either the GPL or LGPL so it lacks that whole tri-license aspect.
Nice to hear you're happy with OpenSolaris, but please stop spreading mis-information

Re:Nothing wrong with hating the GPL... (2, Interesting)

null etc. (524767) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155189)

So tell me again why should I spend my money developing software and just give it away?

I hate to say this, but if you can't see the value in developing software for free, you're probably not a very talented developer.

This may be a misguided conclusion, but I've noticed that brilliant programmers are much more likely to contribute their software to open source, rather than try to develop it commercially.

stupid CEO, don't like it? don't use it (5, Insightful)

Thud457 (234763) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155163)

I think Van Gogh should have stipulated that all his unsold paintings be burnt after his death. I mean, if he didn't profit from them, why the hell should he share them with an ungrateful world? Why on Earth would anybody do anything unless they stand to gain from it? You'd have to be a really stupid fucking schmuck to give anything to the world for free.

High cost to Depevoling Countries (5, Insightful)

ospirata (565063) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155167)

A Developing Country like Brazil had two choices: - Buy proprietary software and do not get knowledge to develop its own technoligy later, thus always buy techonology or... - Get free open source software, develop its own techonology and be "forced" to return its enhancements to Developed countries. First choise make you a slave forever. Second makes you a partner.

Spaceballs? (4, Funny)

sterno (16320) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154851)

Did anybody look at the headline for this and immediately think that Sun was being run by Dark Helmet?

May the schwartz be with you! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12154903)

I suddenly have an urge for cinnamon buns.

Re:Spaceballs? (1)

Eccles (932) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154995)

I guess the Schwartz isn't with us...

Re:Spaceballs? (4, Funny)

Tackhead (54550) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155064)

MCNEALY: Yes. I am the keeper of a greater magic. A power known throughout the universe, known as....
ESR: Open Source?
MCNEALY: No. The Schwartz.
RMS: The Schwartz?
MCNEALY: Yes. The Schwartz. [He holds his Schwartz ring. His is different than the ring BILL GATES has.]
ESR: But, McNealy, what is this place? What is that you do here?
MCNEALY: Licensing.
ESR: Licensing? What's that? (Keep out of this, RMS!)
MCNEALY: Licensing. Come. I'll show. Walk this way. Take a look. We put the company's copyright on everything. Licensing. Licensing. Where the real money from the software is made. Sun-the-Server, Solaris-the Operating System, UltraSPARC-the Pizza box, Sun-the-dot-in-dot-com. (The analysts loved that one.) Last, but not least, Sun-the-Doll. Me!
[pulls on the string]
DOLL: "May the Schwartz be with you!"
MCNEALY: It ain't the Steve Ballmer Monkeyboy Dancebot, but it sells. May the Schwartz be with you!

Re:Spaceballs? (1)

afd8856 (700296) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155160)

That was funny! Thanks :-)

Re:Spaceballs? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12155147)

I was thinking something like... "I see your swartz is as big as mine."

Re:Spaceballs? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12155211)

I see your Schwartz is as big as mine...

All about maintining the Status Quo (4, Insightful)

Striikerr (798526) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154852)

"he adds that it imposes on developing nations "a rather predatory obligation to disgorge all their IP back to the wealthiest nation in the world""

I suppose he would prefer to see the developing nations disgorging their money back to the wealthiest nation in the world's private companies (via licensing costs), thus ensuring this status remains in effect.

Re:All about maintining the Status Quo (4, Insightful)

gormanly (134067) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154922)

Exactly. Which nations have most to lose if knowledge is shared freely - those with lots of "IP" or those with less?

"IP" is simply ideas with a price tag, which ultimately slows down the speed of human development in return for providing shiny things for those of us with too much already.

But I think Jonanthan Schwartz knows that...

We're all racist bozos on this bus (0, Flamebait)

Roadkills-R-Us (122219) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155023)

Essentially the big S is pointing out that we're all evil racists, helping keep the poor, foolish third world countries (who can't afford a lawyer to explain the incomprehensible GPL to them) in servitude.

I had no idea. I really must thank Mr. Schwartz for enlightening us.

To atone for my guilt, I'll rush right out and buy a bunch of Solaris products I can neither afford nor need. I'm not sure just *how* this atones for my unthinking racism, but I can trust Mr. Schwartz; he's a big shot CEO. I just hope my children can forgive me for the debt I'm about to saddle them with.

Ha! (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12155057)

This from one of the biggest advocates for the non-immigrant guest worker programs !!!

His motto was "All your cheap labor belong to us". Not it's, "All your property belong to us".

What a clown.

Developing nations don't give a fuck about "intellectual property". Just look at the US when it was a young country.

Which is true (-1, Redundant)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12154853)

GPL is the antimatter of the propeitery license and is part of a secret conspiracy to keep the developed nations happy.

Poor baby. (3, Insightful)

Pants75 (708191) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154854)

Notice how the big IP companies always bitch and moan about the GPL? Love it!

Does anyone see some light at the end of the tunnel for Sun?

It seems to me that they are in several type of trouble with no idea of how to get straight again.

Just my 2 pen'eth Pete

Re:Poor baby. (5, Funny)

Shadow Wrought (586631) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154875)

Does anyone see some light at the end of the tunnel for Sun?

Netcraft just confirmed it. It's a train.

Re:Poor baby. (1)

Pants75 (708191) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154910)

BWAAaaa haha

Re:Poor baby. (4, Insightful)

qbzzt (11136) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155148)

Hi,

Notice how the big IP companies always bitch and moan about the GPL? Love it!

I'd say IBM is a pretty big IP company, and it seems to be OK with the GPL. Sure, some IBM products may not use GPLed code because of legal restrictions, but that's different from bitching about it.

CEOs who bitch about external factors are not doing their real job, which is adapting to those factors and/or changing them. CEOs who bitch about not being able to use the fruits of a volunteer effort for their company's gain should be working on finding a way to MAKE money instead.

Bye,
Ori

Re:Poor baby. (2, Insightful)

pegr (46683) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155177)

Oh it's better than that... He's flat wrong and he knows it.

You can certainly make proprietary software out of GPL code. Your code. If it's your code, you can release it under any license you want! You just can't make proprietary code out of someone else's GPL code. Now why would you think you have any rights to code you didn't write?

Re:Poor baby. (1)

spannah (211591) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155180)

"Does anyone see some light at the end of the tunnel for Sun?"

I think duke nukem forever will be come out first

Re:Poor baby. (1)

ShieldW0lf (601553) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155207)

After reading what he has to say, it appears to me that he's got two trains of thought running in his head. The "open source yay" train of thought that the marketing people tell him to espouse, and what he really thinks. Just an impression based on the way he seems to frequently conflict with himself, like someone who's putting on a front but knee-jerks out their real opinion when they're put on the spot, then tries to recover from it.

hmmmm... (2)

Kaamoss (872616) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154857)

Of course his alternative is his own software, I just don't see what the problem is with GPL. All it does is make sure that if you want your code open, anyone else wants to use it has to keep theirs open as well. It encourages idea sharing, not some money making scheme for rising third world nations. If you want some interesting history of the GPL check this out http://www.free-soft.org/gpl_history/ [free-soft.org]

Re:hmmmm... (1)

peragrin (659227) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154978)

Schwartz won't listen to that. He hears it's not based on money makeing scheme's and must hate it.

The GPL has only one Goal. to insure software remains free from control. Like the Bitkeeper move. If it isn't Free you can't trust it to be around and updated tomorrow.

No company lasts forever, but GPL'ed software can.

Re:hmmmm... (2, Insightful)

Hamled (742266) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155027)

It appears that he was trying to make the argument that GPL was not "some money making scheme for rising third world nations," and that instead it would hurt those nations by forcing them to make their IP freely available to the US and other developed countries.

Basically, he's making a convoluted argument that GPL is infact far too capitalist to work in today's hugs-and-kisses technology industry. It's probably one of the more insane accusations cast against the GPL, if only because it directly contradicts the conventional wisdom that the GPL is a huge communist scheme.

Hmm... (5, Insightful)

0x461FAB0BD7D2 (812236) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154858)

Economies and nations need intellectual property (IP) to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps.

Interesting. The world's hottest economy right now is China, which has a poor record when it comes to IP. Other emerging nations, such as India, Indonesia and Brazil also have poor IP records.

No, IP is not needed to pull nations up. It would be nice, but it's clearly not a requirement.

Re:Hmm... (1)

CDMA_Demo (841347) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155000)

IP is a western invention. Information should be free, and India China have their own ways of practicing this philosophy (shown in their "poor IP records").

Its also very interesting how many of these big companies make news not by innovation or development, but by how far they go in attacking linux, GPL, and what not.

Re:Hmm... (1)

0x461FAB0BD7D2 (812236) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155121)

Unfortunately, patents are now gaining acceptance in India and China, to a certain degree.

It's partially due to Western pressure however, as both Western governments and Western companies are requesting intellectual property protection, which is something both India and China are gladly giving, as they face the risk of losing investment. Case in point: Apple forced an Indian site to give up hosting PlayFair, IIRC, even though India didn't have any DMCA-like laws which criminalized the use or creation of something like PlayFair.

As for Sun, I guess, as the saying goes, no publicity is bad publicity.

Re:Hmm... (1)

BioCS.Nerd (847372) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155140)

I believe it's sort of inevitable that these countries will adopt IP laws similar to our own to protect the investment their companies will put into their products. No one likes freeloaders.

Like you said, IP isn't a requirement in the upward motion, but I think it's a requirement to keep afloat.

Re:Hmm... (2, Insightful)

Otter (3800) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155219)

Interesting. The world's hottest economy right now is China, which has a poor record when it comes to IP. Other emerging nations, such as India, Indonesia and Brazil also have poor IP records.

Sure, but with the exception of India (which enforces copyright; their issues were with pharmaceutical patents) none of those countries generate significant innovative art or technology. Hong Kong's entertainment industry and Taiwan's tech sector are far more influential than all of mainland China's.

No one's claiming that IP law is necessary to produce lots and lots of concrete or cheap shoes.

"We're Sun" (4, Funny)

geomon (78680) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154859)

And we are working *hard* to drive ourselves into obscurity.

Sun has lead the field for so many years that they really believe the crap they publish in the trade press.

It is sad to see a technology giant succumbing to what could qualify as a form of corporate Parkinson's disease.

Is this any surprise? (2, Funny)

AtariAmarok (451306) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154876)

A titan in the world of proprietary sales-only code does not like the idea of competition from useful programs being "purchased" for free.

Re:Is this any surprise? (1)

0x461FAB0BD7D2 (812236) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154933)

Perhaps more interestingly, Sun is trying to ally itself with the open-source community by going up against one of its pillars, the GPL. And this is right after squabbling with RedHat.

Schwartz desperately needs a copy of Dale Carnegie's "How to win friends and influence people."

Re:Is this any surprise? (1)

Qzukk (229616) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154959)

Well, the point is that its not being purchased "for free" its being purchased "for freedom".

If nothing else, Schwartz's ineffective ranting will serve to educate those who would try to be the CherryOSes of this world: If you want to write proprietary programs, don't take your code from GPL'd products.

Personally I don't see why this seems to end up being a surprise to all these companies, like one day they woke up and "Oh my God! The people that wrote that code I downloaded off the web and put on my wireless access point is suddenly forcing me to opensource my access point or stop selling it! Why did this happen?!"

smart people being stupid (5, Insightful)

Camel Pilot (78781) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154902)

Quote I've talked to developing nations, representatives from academia and manufacturing companies that had begun to incorporate GPL software into their products, then...found they had an obligation to deliver their IP back into the world

Why do these supposedly smart people Balmer, Gates, Lyons, McBride, Schwartz, etc. of the world always sound so stupid when they attept to attack the GPL? They always make it sould like the GPL stipulation to give back your improvements as a nasty surprise at the bottom of the cracker jack box.

Could I not also say:

academia and manufacturing companies that had begun to incorporate propriety software into their products, then...found they had an obligation to pay royalities back to the companies that licences their IP

evil propriety software evil evil...

Re:smart people being stupid (2, Insightful)

Seumas (6865) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155024)

Bitching about having to contribute your improvements back to the public that provided you with the GPL'd code in the first place is kind of like bitching about having to pay taxes on your company's profits.

Re:smart people being stupid (2, Interesting)

Chromodromic (668389) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155118)

Why do these supposedly smart people Balmer, Gates, Lyons, McBride, Schwartz, etc. of the world always sound so stupid when they attept to attack the GPL?

Well, I don't think they do sound stupid at all. I think, very frequently, they sound pretty smart.

I've seen so many comments on Slashdot and in other places which seem to indicate by their content that the commenter believes greed is limited to only the United States. I mean, I've seen several comments here which point out that the flow of IP under the GPL is bidirectional. The poster says "Duh!".

Personally, I don't think that the engineers in developing nations are so stupid that they fail to recognize this fact and need our help to remind them. I do think, however, that many engineering companies management teams will seriously pause at the idea of giving up their research under the GPL, for the same reasons as any management team which sees a value in proprietary knowledge.

The U.S. didn't invent greed, no, we just worked out a system that allowed greed to be more than just a motivator.

Plato says, in Phaedrus: "... you must determine which kind of speech is appropriate to each kind of soul ... offer a complex and elaborate speech to a complex soul and a simple speech to a simple one." I believe this is all that is happening here with Schwartz. He has tailored his speech and he knows, exactly, who he is speaking to. We shouldn't assume that people like him are stupid simply because we don't like to the language he speaks.

Christ Schwartz has some balls (4, Insightful)

killmenow (184444) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154905)

You know this guy understands the GPL. You just KNOW it. The problem is exactly as the submitter says, the GPL levels the playing field. That's Schwartz' real problem with it. It's the same thing that scares the bejesus out of most proprietary software vendors. Not that they'll ever come right out and just admit the real problem: but, your honor, it's devastating to my business model!

It always amazes me when they bitch and moan about the way things should be when commercial software manufacturers make up only a small fraction of the software development world. Most people developing software are doing so for internal I.T. departments for internal projects. They benefit the most from Open Source.

But vendors like Sun and Microsoft want us to remain in the dark ages suckling on their poisoned teat when the world can now ween itself of that sour milk and move on to the glory of free beer.

Oh, wait...I'm mixing metaphors...mmm, beer...what was I on about?

Re:Christ Schwartz has some balls (2, Funny)

AtariAmarok (451306) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154927)

"But vendors like Sun and Microsoft want us to remain in the dark ages suckling on their poisoned teat when the world can now ween itself of that sour milk and move on to the glory of free beer."

I think you shot the gift horse in the mouth after you closed the barn door.

Schwartz, some balls... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12154949)

Where have I heard this before?

So, what's a dazzling urbanite like you doing in a place like this?

Re:Christ Schwartz has some balls (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12154980)

When your job becomes obsoleted, it's time to evolve and do something else. The same should be true for corporations. When the users end up creating all of the software, it's time to put your energy and resources into a new avenue.

But I guess what's "good" for employees isn't good enough for employers.

Re:Christ Schwartz has some balls (1)

garcia (6573) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155130)

It always amazes me when they bitch and moan about the way things should be when commercial software manufacturers make up only a small fraction of the software development world.

That small fraction of the business world controls 90% of the money. That's why it doesn't surprise me.

In one ear and out the other. (3, Interesting)

MindStalker (22827) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154907)

Wow, in one breath he talks about how GPL is bad because it doesn't allow you to keep your changes secret. He also talks about how he will not open source java for fear of forking. Then he says that companies like IBM who help Linux but don't open up all their products are "hypocrits".
Wow this guy really needs help from the cluestick.

No worries. (4, Funny)

michael path (94586) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154917)

Our Schwartz is bigger than the Sun's.

they're just trying to maintain the fascade (2, Interesting)

0kComputer (872064) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154934)

That they are actually pro-open source to save face for developers when in reality open source has virtually destroyed them (Linux).

Re:they're just trying to maintain the fascade (1)

robertjw (728654) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155204)

in reality open source has virtually destroyed them (Linux).

No, they have destroyed themselves. Sun was always highly overpriced and overrated. During the boom they got away with it - everyone HAD to have Sun machines. Since times have become leaner, they still have this expensive big business image that they can't shake. Their hardware is way cool, but still way to expensive for normal mortals to afford. Their market share has died, but it's not ONLY the adoption of open source products. They haven't changed enough to access the low end markets while IBM and HP have sewn up the high end markets (while embracing open source software).

It's unfortunate, I have always liked the idea of Sun and their products, but the downward spiral is just depressing. This article is typical coporate floundering - blame everyone but ourselves for our problems.

Not *all* of their IP. (1, Redundant)

Stephen Samuel (106962) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154940)

The countries don't have any obligation, except to the extent that they're extending GPL code. Even then it's the developer that only needs to allow the IP that they're adding to GPL code that they then wilfully distribute to be contributed to the world at large.

GPL is not always appropriate for all uses (5, Insightful)

Jim_Maryland (718224) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154945)

I realize I'll get a bit of hate on this, but the GPL license does scare away companies that rely on intellectual property (IP). My employer has stepped up it's free open source software awareness lately to avoid inadvertantly losing IP that it doesn't wish to give away under a GPL like license. The GPL has been labelled as a "viral license" in some company policies I've seen because it really does open everything up in most cases. The GPL does exactly what it should though in promoting free open source software and it's usage just needs to be carefully evaluated before using in a project where you wish to keep all/portions of code closed. The license itself shouldn't be attacked but education of it's requirements (which the FAQ does pretty well) must be understood if thinking of using GPL source.

Re:GPL is not always appropriate for all uses (1)

sqlrob (173498) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155188)

DUH!

It's due diligence. Do the same with any license before you integrate code under it. The "contribute code back" isn't limited to GPL. IIRC, some of the MS shared source licenses have the same restrictions (except it's only back to MS, not the public)

Who Cares (1)

MightyMartian (840721) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154946)

Why would anyone take Sun's proclamations seriously? These guys have to make a good show for their shareholders.

GPL is better for poorer nations (1, Insightful)

caluml (551744) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154947)

I would say that the GPL, and free software help the poorer nations. No monies leaving their shores, and in turn, they put money back into the local economy.
Contrast that with Microsoft, raking in dollars from all over the world, back to their little stash in the North West US.

Relevance? (2, Interesting)

mr.mighty (162506) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154951)

Why do we keep reading this stuff? Who thinks Sun is relevant anymore? In a couple of years, after they've managed to choke the life out of Java, what's left?

Re:Relevance? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12155028)

Sun are SCO mark II, that's what the MS settlement meant in real terms.

Re:Relevance? (1)

CoderBob (858156) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155125)

Does that mean that I only have to keep waiting a couple years to get rid of all those stupid friggin dialog boxes that pop up as I attempt to do some decent online research, because apparently even the professionals can't use Java correctly?

Usually this results in me wishing to pull them through the computer screen and bash their heads against my desk repeatedly, and as much fun as that would be, I have yet to develop the awesome mental powers that it would require, and I have yet to get that bitchin' software that lets DATP (DumbAss Transport Protocol) packets through.

That's why (1, Insightful)

Patrick Mannion (782290) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154961)

They decided to make their own lisence to release Java under, becuase this dude hates the GPL. And that's why it's non-GPL compliant like the MPL (Mozilla Public).

Asymmetry (4, Interesting)

tfb (49770) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154962)

He's quite probably right about the developing world.

The owner of the copyright is free to license it however they like. In particular they can do the standard dual-licensing trick that is done by people like sleepycat, with a GPLd version which is free as well as a more liberal one, which you pay for. Other people are not free to do this.

Most code will (initially, anyway) originate in the developed world. People in the developing world are poor, and will therefore very likely use it under the GPL, and therefore contribute changes back to the developed world (and to the developing world of course). Users in the developed world, who are generally richer, can avoid doing this by paying for a liberal version.

This would not happen with a BSD-style license, for instance.

Obrigado (4, Interesting)

Doc Ruby (173196) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154964)

You don't have to GPL apps you distribute, just because they run on a GPL'd OS, or interop with GPL'd apps. Opening one's source is an opportunity, not an obligation, to get communities of coders to use and improve your code. The GPL obligations are perfectly balanced with their benefits, even though some benefits are unencumbered by any obligations.

Re:Obrigado (1)

Jim_Maryland (718224) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155068)

I agree with you on the GPL OS, but if you write code that can essentially lead to an aggregated work, you probably should read GPL FAQ Aggregation [gnu.org] . One just needs to review license requirements if they intend to keep their code under a non GPL license.

Opening one's source is an opportunity, not an obligation

While this is an "opportunity", it's also an obligation if you create an aggregated work.

Disingenuous (4, Insightful)

redelm (54142) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154986)

Anytime people invoke objects of sympathy (third world nations, various underclasses), I get immediately suspicious. If the arguement is good, it is good without sympathy support.

In this case, SUN is seriously misquoting the GPL. Deliberately, I fear. Nothing in the GPL requires general publication -- giving away IP. The only thing required is that you give users source. If there are many users, it amounts to general publication. But a lot of code is _not_ general, but just for one firm. They get source (as they should, having paid for the work), but are very unlikely to publish it generally. The only thing the GPL really attacks is per-seat licencing. Co-incidentally, this is a big part of Sun's revenue stream.

Ignorance of development economics (2, Interesting)

TheSync (5291) | more than 9 years ago | (#12154988)

This is yet another in a long line of non-economists saying stupid and ignorant things about development economics.

People in developing countries who use GPL have priced-in the potential costs of loss of their IP rights versus the potential savings from using GPL products or advantages to using GPL products.

Of course, in many developing countries, the concept of IP rights may not even exist...which can be part of the reason they are still "developing".

Oh, the irony! (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12154996)

I find it really amusing that the QOTD at the bottom of screen was:

He missed an invaluable opportunity to hold his tongue. -- Andrew Lang

Can't believe no one's said this yet.. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12155003)

I see your Schwartz is as big as mine. Now lets see how well he handles it.

The GPL says... (5, Insightful)

IGnatius T Foobar (4328) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155025)

One of the most important things people forget about the GPL is that Section 5 reads thusly:

You are not required to accept this License, since you have not signed it. However, nothing else grants you permission to modify or distribute the Program or its derivative works.

Nobody is forcing Mr. Schwartz to make use of GPL software. We in the open source community like the GPL because it's fair. You want to use all that code out there, for free? Share and enjoy. But you have to play by our rules. You don't get to enjoy the benefits of the GPL without also taking on its responsibilities.

That's why Sun (and Microsoft) love the BSD license so much ... you can take, take, take and not have to give back anything. Sun, unfortunately, is not currently in a position where they can begin dictating the rules. If they want "Open" Solaris to be a successful open source OS then they're going to have to start playing by conventional open source rules. Sun is in no position to change the rules.

I really like SUN (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12155036)

I think Solaris is great and SUN certainly has contributed a lot to open source.

Now if someone could please shut up this unbearable Mr. Schwartz.
His constant FUD slinging certainly doesn't do the company he's working for justice and it certainly isn't helping SUN in any way.

Death for Sun becomes easy... (1)

i_want_you_to_throw_ (559379) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155037)

as Open Source spreads. The classic battle that people think of is M$ versus Linux but Sun is WAY easier to replace.

Hell I just did it with 2 boxes here in the military establishment I work for. Sun is so schizo about Open Source. The love it one day and hate it the next....

Typical (2, Insightful)

sabat (23293) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155038)

It's typical of the wood-headed baby boom generationazis, who invented the myth of "IP" to begin with, to grandstand about their entitlements: We have the right to make up arbitrary rules and force you to live by them! Blah blah.

"IP" does not exist. It's not allowed by the US Constitution, and is bizarre in concept anyway: what, you own the part of my brain that knows your ideas? You cannot actually own something that only exists in people's heads, fella. Hand me a song and then we can talk.

The problem is, as usual, their feeling of entitlement to continue an outmoded business model as the world changes around them. It reminds me a little bit of the Sneeches, who ignored the rest of the world while it developed around them; bitching at each other was too important. (Yes, I know it's really about Palestine and Israel.) At some point soon, the world will be working with an entirely different business model, and these self-important ass-munches will still be whining about the "revenue streams" that they're entitled to.

"La la la C'mon people now, smile on your brother, everybody get together, got to love one another right now!" Fuck off and die, hippies.

BUT! We exploited them first!!! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12155041)

the termite stick comes to mind

yep, and built on the bax of salvz too

never mind that WESTERN philosphical advances brought the concept of equality and that 100's of thousands of 'non-slaves- dies in pulling the changes off. in FACT.

huh? (5, Insightful)

deego (587575) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155051)

On the contrary, Mr. Schwarz, it is the developing nations that suffer most from the IP menace.

First, they and their companies don't have enough infrastructure to take out patents on every ancient recipe or herb they have used. That is why you see US companies patenting ancient herbs from India (with minor mods) -- that came across a ridiculous joke when it first happened, but now it is so much more common that it is not even funny.

Second, AIDS and other drugs would be much cheaper and more easily available for the dying in Africa.

Isn't it true that developed nations like US consider IP to be among their primary products?

Isn't it true that most patents are taken out by companies in the developed world?

Considering all this, how can anyone sincerely believe that "IP" helps developing nations more? And that a copyleft would therefore, harm them more?

Disgorge your purse! (1, Insightful)

Pac (9516) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155052)

I'd rather disgorge all our software to the the world than have my government digorging large sums of money from my taxes to pay Microsoft, IBM, Sun etc.

It is rather clear that most developing nations won't ever even the field in terms of production capacity - we will never have as many programmmers as well-trainned as the US, for instance. So Free Software makes all sense, as it allows us to divide the efforts among all interested parties. For poor nations the situation is even more dramatic, as they neither have the manpower nor the money to pay for the software.

open source needs a good PR doctor (0)

markhahn (122033) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155055)

one big problem is that RMS and GPL give everyone the creeps.

suppose the subtitle of GPL was "license for programmers who play nice with other programmers". after all, that's the whole point: if you want to use our software, we want to use whatever you build on it.

GPL - if I show you mine, you show me yours.

Before you embarrass yourself again (-1)

ifwm (687373) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155077)

by saying "Duh" to something that is much more complex than you state, perhaps you should give all sides.

The GPL in developing countries, and the US too, has the unpleasant side effect of insulating companies with lots of IP.

Company A, in the US, has spent say twenty years developing proprietary stuff. None of it is GPL'd.

Company B, in a developing country, has no such history, and must use GPL'd code, or go proprietary. There are other options, but these are the two most likely.

So company A has 20 years of IP, AND all the GPL'd code they care to use, while company B has no IP at all.

I would say that is a real disadvantage.

So if the GPL.. (2, Insightful)

erikkemperman (252014) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155079)

..is such as a disaster to developing countries, how come only the rich white guys in Redmond and SiValley are complaining about it?

What are they doing to help these countries, with their proprietary models? Import employees? Lots of good that'll do their economy. Outsource? Only means more profit (lower wages) flows back to the USofA.

"Use the Schwarz" is getting a whole new meaning. Seriously, go ask the folks in Brazil and Chile where they can stick it.

how much ip is created in developing countries (2, Interesting)

Intrigued (757997) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155080)

If you take a developing country that hasn't had generations of technology infrastructure, how much new IP is produced there? The big guys produce more IP than the little guys because they have been doing it for years. Most IP produced by the developing nations is going to be wasted time recreating what has already been done elsewhere.

On the other hand, would you rather see this developing country with low budget try spending money to buy enough tech infrastructure to start to compete with the big guys? How does sucking that much money out of a developing country help them?

If anything, GPL levels out the baseline for developing countries saying

"here is a bunch of technology that all of us have used for years for free. This will help you get up to speed so you can appreciate all this new stuff we are developing."

Lots (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12155175)

ru
cz
pl
br
cn

Oh, you didn't know that those were developing countries?

what it sounds like (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12155094)

the way the submitter puts it, it sounds like a puke-fest.

That's a better situation... (1)

Trailer Trash (60756) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155129)

than those same developing nations having to disgorge all their cash to the US to buy software from Microsoft and Sun.

Sun's fake compassion (1)

spiritraveller (641174) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155131)

he adds that it imposes on developing nations "a rather predatory obligation to disgorge all their IP back to the wealthiest nation in the world"

Weren't they arguing that Java would be the great equalizer of the classes back in the mid 90s?

This is just more of the same. They're using BS arguments to pretend that they care about the less fortunate, while obviously advancing their own interests.

Do they honestly believe that anyone falls for this?

Global Communism? (1)

zolik (546849) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155136)

Over time the GPL (not LGPL) has the effect of infecting all softare with the GPL due to improper mixing of software components. This puts all infected software in the the same 'community', intended or not.

Break it down for the Groupies (1)

Rhaythe (868600) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155137)

Soo... um, does this mean that we hate Sun this week? Or just that Schwartz is this week's McBride?

SUNW still piling up losses ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12155144)

Sun has lost over 90% of it's value [yahoo.com] .

At the end of the day, Sun's just another dotcom piece of crap that's going bankrupt.

No surprise (3, Insightful)

rewt66 (738525) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155153)

We live in a world where truth is a stranger. Spin is king. "Seeing both sides of an issue" is dead, and "saying whatever will get people to do what you want" is running out of control, like Godzilla in Tokyo.

Hello, truth? Are you out there? Come back... we miss you.

duh! (1, Redundant)

Stephen Samuel (106962) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155172)

"But Schwartz said that some people he's spoken to dislike it because it precludes them from using open-source software as a foundation for proprietary projects."

That's the primary intent of the GPL. That's like complaining that water gets you wet. The intent of the GPL is that companies like SUN can't take my code, make minor changes, and claim proprietary ownership of the result (by only distributing the object code, and deckarubg the source code a trade secret)

Sun's CDL contains some wilfull holes that might allow SUN to later shut down others' uses of the code that they release. That's something that (AFAIK) the have declined to fix so far.

Licenses don't kill people (1)

jbr439 (214107) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155210)

Licenses don't kill people; failure to read them kills people.

You'd think it was fscking rocket science to expect the manager of a software project to understand the various licenses of the software he/she was using.

Bah (1)

AugstWest (79042) | more than 9 years ago | (#12155213)

Bunch of bloody commies [zdnet.co.uk]
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