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World of Warcraft Honor System Live

Zonk posted more than 9 years ago | from the tread-carefully-young-warrior dept.

Role Playing (Games) 121

Available now from the World of Warcraft Patch servers, the Honor System has been put into production. The Patch Notes are available on the official site and besides the Honor System includes new art, bug fixes, and new live events in Kalimdor and the Gurubashi Arena. There will also be, starting in May, a "Children's Week" celebrated in Orgrimmar and Stormwind. "It is a time to give back to the innocents of war: the orphans!"

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ok, one question comes to mind here.... (4, Funny)

Malor (3658) | more than 9 years ago | (#12282881)

How can you be an orphan when your parents respawn every 10 minutes?

Re:ok, one question comes to mind here.... (1)

Ayaress (662020) | more than 9 years ago | (#12283280)

His parents probably got fed up waiting for the honor system to go live and quit.

live? (2, Interesting)

JVert (578547) | more than 9 years ago | (#12282895)

It is live when I can login and download it.

It is not very live at the moment.

Re:live? (2, Funny)

cypher073 (864209) | more than 9 years ago | (#12283008)

Download went fine at least. But, it'll be live when I can log in, get booted, sit through a week-long extended downtime, fight with the authentication server, and finally get credited 24-hours of gameplay and full rest state. That might be sometime next week.

Re:live? (1)

JVert (578547) | more than 9 years ago | (#12283652)

Yea, I was off the lock for a month and just finished my last 3 levels this weekend to get my mount so a rest state at this point wouldn't be soo bad. I still love you blizzard, after hating you for a month or so, but I still wonder if they are taking this seriously. Website is knocked off its butt time after time again. There is no excuse for that. If they can't make a webcluster that stays up what are we to think of their game server?

Re:live? (1)

k_187 (61692) | more than 9 years ago | (#12283341)

well I just finished downloading and patching, so you can download it, you just can't play it.

Take that Blizzard... (4, Funny)

softspokenrevolution (644206) | more than 9 years ago | (#12282909)

Well, at least they can't blame this lag on naked night elves dancing in front of the Auction House. Take that patch notes and website server.

Evil (2, Funny)

Irashtar (836973) | more than 9 years ago | (#12283019)

If you play, say, a troll, do you still have to follow the honour system?

Re:Evil (1)

meehray (715859) | more than 9 years ago | (#12284429)

I doubt it because you'll most likely be playing as an AC hiding behind your real identity!

Re:Evil (1)

Ja'Achan (827610) | more than 9 years ago | (#12286344)

No race is really evil in WoW; at the end of the day, every race was used by some greater evil or very sorry about what they've done. No one HAS to follow the honor system, but the rewards and rules are equal to every race.

Re:Evil (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12287350)

Undead are currently working on a plague to wipe out all life on Azeroth. That counts as evil to me.

(Note that's the Undead playable race, the Forsaken, not the Scourge, which are the various undead mobs that run around.)

Re:Evil (1)

C0rinthian (770164) | more than 9 years ago | (#12287804)

Love the various Undead quests which have you poisoning Alliance prisoners, etc...

Bad day.. (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12283037)

To be on a pvp server!
My poor level 32 mage won't know what hit him.. Nor will the level ~30s that run into him.

Screenshots and info! (4, Informative)

JorenDahn (670270) | more than 9 years ago | (#12283065)

PvP Honor ranks and corresponding rewards listed here [worldofwarcraft.com] .

Official images of PvP armor sets [worldofwarcraft.com] Wow, sexy.
Official images of the new mounts [worldofwarcraft.com]
Official listing of PvP weapons [worldofwarcraft.com] No pics though. :(

Black mounts (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12284619)

Wow! How prestigious. A black version of the mount already available in 3 other colors. I hope no one at Blizzard was paid overtime for creating this "reward".

It Will Be Interesting... (5, Interesting)

Chi Hsuan Men (767453) | more than 9 years ago | (#12283067)

...to see how this will affect Horde / Alliance relations.

I play on Sargeras, which is a PvP server. Considering that it is a PvP server, there are a lot of clashes between the Horde and Alliance. Raids are constantly led against Horde and Alliance towns alike and in contested areas, "ganking" is a popular activity.

Though the interesting thing to note is when Alliance and Horde play nice. In certain areas, Horde and Alliance co-exist (to a reasonable degree) as they are BOTH attempting to complete quests.

For example, I was in Felwood last night working on a quest and a couple of Horde were right next to me killing MOBs and we pretty much go into a rhythm were I would kill one, then they would kill one, so on and so forth. At the end, we completed our objective (fill the vial with corrupted water), saluted each other, and went on our merry way.

In this example, we played nice with each, because it was mutually beneficial for us to do so, after all, we both needed to complete the quest... ...however, with the new patch, it will be just as beneficial, if not MORE for us to simply kill each other, as that will give us honor points which will eventually translate in p|-|47 l00t.

While the honor system MIGHT curb the rampant "problem" that is ganking (I don't see it as a problem, it's a pvp server, I deal with it) I think it will definitely escalate the desire for Horde and Alliance to kill each other, and make it more difficult to complete quests in contested areas.

Re:It Will Be Interesting... (1)

buffer-overflowed (588867) | more than 9 years ago | (#12283158)

The loot isn't that great. It's decent, for sure, but you can put together something as good from instance drops.

Which is precisely how it should be. The PvP stuff should just look damn cool.

Re:It Will Be Interesting... (2, Insightful)

OglinTatas (710589) | more than 9 years ago | (#12283197)

For example, I was in Felwood last night working on a quest and a couple of Horde were right next to me killing MOBs and we pretty much go into a rhythm were I would kill one, then they would kill one, so on and so forth. At the end, we completed our objective (fill the vial with corrupted water), saluted each other, and went on our merry way.

I play on a carebear server, and that is the way it is supposed to work (but maybe with rude gestures sometimes instead of just salutes). I imagine on a PvP server, if the honor system discourages that behavior, then it will have worked as intended. I wonder if it will significantly increase PvP on the carebear servers too? I hope so. I also applaud the PvP toggle, so that you can turn it on and leave it on, if you were in a PvP mood. I hope it still has the 5 minute cooldown before you can turn it off after combat, though.

Re:It Will Be Interesting... (4, Interesting)

linzeal (197905) | more than 9 years ago | (#12283465)

I play on the Ner'Zul server and as the rogue class officer for the 3rd largest guild on the server I have been anticipating with dread this move to an Honor System for months. PVP servers now will have an even steeper leveling curve that was not in place when the game went live. Places like Tarren Mills and Southshore will be bloodbaths during primetime and probably well into off time. Many people in my guild are considering dropping the PVE element of the game altogethter to have ganking parties 40 people strong that will kill en masse at the higher level neutral and enemy towns.

The game may change too radically for some and this might force some of the more reticent players on PVP servers to consider how much griefing [wikipedia.org] they will allow in their online experience. When you are paying upwards of 50 bucks [amazon.com] for the game and 15 bucks [blizzard.com] a month for the game the casual player who plays an hour or two a night is not going to be too pleased to not be able to meaningfully interact with the virtual world as he has done for the past 6 months there might be the addition of dishonor points for player kills. Which is what even a lot of us more hardcore folk would consider the minimal insurance that we will not be /spit on , ganked and griefed for the entierity of our online time.

Re:It Will Be Interesting... (4, Insightful)

meta-monkey (321000) | more than 9 years ago | (#12283897)

I don't think it'll be much of a problem for people at lower levels. At level 60, I don't get honor points from ganking level 30s. The honor sytem lewt is only usable by high-level players, and is geared towards them. So there won't be roaming bands of level 40s hunting for level 35s in STV...they're still going to be leveling to get to 60 where the honor system really kicks in.

That said, people level 50-59 are absolutely screwed. They're going to be hunted down mercilessly. A level 50 player is still green (honorable kill worthy) to a level 60, so that guy is gonna get ganked. Then the ganker is going to call in all his guild mates, and they'll camp him and take turns killing him so they each get an honor kill until the guy gives up and logs. Essentially, once you hit 50 you better either hide in an instance or only go outside with a full raid group until you're 60.

Re:It Will Be Interesting... (1)

mdbales (611785) | more than 9 years ago | (#12285202)

Then the ganker is going to call in all his guild mates, and they'll camp him and take turns killing him so they each get an honor kill until the guy gives up and logs.

This hopefully won't be a problem. I recall Blizzard saying that there are diminished returns for players of the same guild killing players of another guild. Whether or not this was actually implemented I do not know.

Re:It Will Be Interesting... (3, Informative)

meta-monkey (321000) | more than 9 years ago | (#12285371)

I don't think there's anything like that...there are diminishing returns for the same player killing the same player over and over again, but not guild. That doesn't matter if you're in a group or not...the first time you'll get 100% of the honor points you would get, based on the group bonuses, and the next time you'll get fewer, and fewer, until probably after you've killed the same guy 4-5 times you won't get any points for killing him at all for a day or so. I don't think guilds have anything to do with it. If that were the case, large guilds woud be a serious disadvantage, and you'd be better off just disbanding your in-game guild but still teaming up over Ventrillo or something.

Re:It Will Be Interesting... (1)

mdbales (611785) | more than 9 years ago | (#12285646)

I can't find the post on the WoW forums because their servers are toast right now, but I know some type of guild diminishing returns was talked about. This was to reduce both corpse camping and "secret agreements" between guilds of opposite factions. They don't wan't guilds to beat up on each other repeatably just to gain honor faster.

Re:It Will Be Interesting... (1)

Minna Kirai (624281) | more than 9 years ago | (#12285975)

I know some type of guild diminishing returns was talked about

If so, then it will encourage people to work together, but not join a formal guild. For example, you can gank a few 50s somewhere, then call on chat for the other 60s of your faction to come get them on ressurect.

and "secret agreements" between guilds of opposite factions.

The specific term for those "secret agreements" are "fight club", btw. The reasoning should be obvious.

Re:It Will Be Interesting... (1)

L7_ (645377) | more than 9 years ago | (#12285332)

Also to note, that level 50 people (especially healers, since they tend to team up with characters higher level than themselves) will be gaining points from level 40-60 kills...

Re:It Will Be Interesting... (1)

patio11 (857072) | more than 9 years ago | (#12287885)

Of course, the lvl 50 is either a) on a PvP server, where constant gankfest is what he has had for the last 30 levels or b) on a PvE server, where he is immune to attack unless he wanders into an enemy factional capital or attempts to strike one of their NPCs.

Re:It Will Be Interesting... (1)

_UnderTow_ (86073) | more than 9 years ago | (#12284210)

Actually there are no dishonor points or dishonor penalties implemented yet IIRC. The system keeps track of dishonorable kills so that blizzard can identify whether or not to institure penalites.

Re:It Will Be Interesting... (1)

Minna Kirai (624281) | more than 9 years ago | (#12285773)

When you are paying upwards of 50 bucks for the game and 15 bucks a month for the game the casual player who plays an hour or two a night is not going to be too pleased to not be able to meaningfully interact with the virtual world as he has done for the past 6 months

Really, he should've thought of that before joining a PVP server. If you're a casual guy who wants to run dungeons without worrying about PK, then join a PVE server!

However, it would be honorable for Blizzard to offer all PVP characters a free opportunity to move to a PVE server whenever they change the laws on what kind of PVP is acceptabl.

Re:It Will Be Interesting... (3, Interesting)

Achoi77 (669484) | more than 9 years ago | (#12283745)

I too play on a pvp server (Mannoroth), and have tested out the honor system on the test server. To be truthful, the 'phat lewtz' that are given thru pvp awards will be *very* difficult to get, as it is percentage based. The top rank (14) will only be awarded to .1% of all the total population, which translates to 1 out of every 1000. For a server with 30,000, that means only 30. For a smaller server with 10,000, only 10(!!!) will be able to acheive rank 14 and be awarded the big gear.

With such a difficulty ranking, it's better off if you and your guildmates farmed out MC or something.

That said, it will be a rough time for the first few weeks, since people will not realize that the honor system only kicks into high gear for endgame people. What I DO suspect is that the rampant lowbie ganking will ebb quite a bit to acceptable levels, Tarren Mill not withstanding, and that we will see a LOT more raids on the capital cities. (which should be fun!)

Re:It Will Be Interesting... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12284012)

.1% of all the total population, which translates to 1 out of every 1000. For a server with 30,000, that means only 30. For a smaller server with 10,000, only 10(!!!) will be able to acheive rank 14

You figure that out all by yourself, Einstein?

Re:It Will Be Interesting... (1)

FirienFirien (857374) | more than 9 years ago | (#12284259)

The top rank (14) will only be awarded to .1% of all the total population, which translates to 1 out of every 1000. For a server with 30,000, that means only 30. For a smaller server with 10,000, only 10(!!!) will be able to acheive rank 14 and be awarded the big gear.

So? Convince everyone to double their number of alts, and you're up to double the high-rankers. Considering how easy it is to make alts (is there a cap?); and how many people won't be trying for top-level, and you can reduce the odds significantly.

OTOH... there is a point to having this awesome gear be so narrowly available. It means it's actually valuable; something to strive for. Striving makes the game more fun.

Re:It Will Be Interesting... (1)

C0rinthian (770164) | more than 9 years ago | (#12289578)

Actually, it's the top .1% of the contribution PER FACTION. It's also not a direct factor of population, but of contribution points. A character that never gets an honorable kill does not add any contribution points to the pool, and so is out fo the equation.

Basically, honorable kills add to the "contribution points" of the faction. Rankings are based on THAT number, and are recalculated weekly. (I'm not sure how they're working ranking decay if you stop PvP;ing for a week...)

Re:It Will Be Interesting... (1)

vitaflo (20507) | more than 9 years ago | (#12285357)

While the honor system MIGHT curb the rampant "problem" that is ganking (I don't see it as a problem, it's a pvp server, I deal with it) I think it will definitely escalate the desire for Horde and Alliance to kill each other, and make it more difficult to complete quests in contested areas.

That's the entire point. If you're not 60, be prepared to be ganked early and often. The entire game is now PVP, especially since Battlegrounds isn't in the game yet. If you need to level up yet, good luck, it just became 1000x harder.

In a way, that's the way the game is supposed to be. The Alliance and Horde are at war. It is your JOB to kill the opposition when you see them. The patch creates incentive for people to do so, where they really weren't before.

It also encourages grouping, which is supposed to be an integral part of MMO's anyway. Expect to see large groups wandering around from place to place, for protection, or for raids. The world will be very different from here on out, be prepared.

Re:It Will Be Interesting... (1)

Sancho (17056) | more than 9 years ago | (#12286218)

Actually, many NPCs will tell you that the Horde and Alliance have an "uneasy peace". Officially, there is no war.

Re:It Will Be Interesting... (1)

the argonaut (676260) | more than 9 years ago | (#12288403)

That's right, it's a "police action". And the other faction is made up of "unlawful combatants".

Re:It Will Be Interesting... (3, Interesting)

Minna Kirai (624281) | more than 9 years ago | (#12285914)

Though the interesting thing to note is when Alliance and Horde play nice. In certain areas, Horde and Alliance co-exist (to a reasonable degree) as they are BOTH attempting to complete quests.

It's a little interesting to note that the enmity between Horde & Alliance is maintained by what is essentially NPC bigotry. In towns with NPC guards, players of the other factions will automatically be attacked. Fighting back will flag them for PVP, attracting the nearby PCs to come pound on them.

But in the wilderness, there are no NPC faction-members to start fights. And since the two sides aren't warring by default in that situation, they tend to cooperate like you described.

with the new patch, it will be just as beneficial, if not MORE for us to simply kill each other,

The game is called "Warcraft" after all- you're supposed to be at war, and that means attacking on sight. From the perspective of authors trying to make a game world fulfill their longstanding preconceptions, that effect will be exactly what they want.

make it more difficult to complete quests in contested areas.

Hey, if Honor points will be giving better l00t anyhow, why bother questing? The quest location becomes like a meeting-place for Honor battles, with the quest reward a consolation prize for when you're standing around there and don't meet an enemy party.

Re:It Will Be Interesting... (1)

C0rinthian (770164) | more than 9 years ago | (#12289762)

Hey, if Honor points will be giving better l00t anyhow, why bother questing? The quest location becomes like a meeting-place for Honor battles, with the quest reward a consolation prize for when you're standing around there and don't meet an enemy party.
The phat lewt has level requirements, and the good stuff is lvl 55+ I think. If you never quest, you don't level, so you never get to use the lewt.

I almost think you should get a certain amount of experience for defeating a comparable level opponent. As long as you apply the same diminishing returns on repeat kills as the honor system, I can't think of a good reason not to off the top of my head. Hmm... (starts brainstorming)

Every single patch day the site goes 'boink' (1)

Daikiki (227620) | more than 9 years ago | (#12283141)

Worldofwar [worldofwar.net] also has the patch notes [worldofwar.net] .

WoW... (0, Flamebait)

araczynski (265221) | more than 9 years ago | (#12283223)

...yawn, I let my account expire with 2 weeks left of play.

Re:WoW... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12283401)

Great, thanks for letting us know. Would you please start posting on all the stories you're not interested in?

Moneis for me babies (1)

NessusRed (710227) | more than 9 years ago | (#12283230)

pleae bigve me monei for my babies please they be hundry and dneed food pleas! http://example.com/ [example.com] will auto-link a URL

Not looking forward to this... (4, Interesting)

meta-monkey (321000) | more than 9 years ago | (#12283468)

I can't say I'm looking forward to this patch. I chose a PvP server to PvP...I still love that. I just don't like the way the rewards are implemented.

I have a wife and a job, and don't have as much time to play as the college students and bums who make up most of my guild. With the PvE stuff, I might not always have my stuff first, but I'd get it eventually. I got to 60 about a month after my friends. They had time to run three instances a day for their class sets. I could only run maybe one before bed, but that was fine. I didn't get my stuff first, but I got it eventually. Now we're working through Molten Core and have killed Onyxia several times, and I've got pieces of my epic class sets. I'll get the rest, eventually, too.

Now with the PvP system, you get your rank determined by the percentage of server-wide kills you got that week. Only a certain percentage of players per server will be able to get the higher PvP ranks. It doesn't matter if I'm the greatest PvP'er who ever lived, I will never get the epic PvP sets, simply because there's no way I can get more kills in the 1-2 hours a night I have to play than the people who have 8 hours a day to play. With the PvE stuff, I wouldn't be there FIRST, but I'd be there EVENTUALLY. With the PvP system, I'll never get there, and will only be somewhere in the middle of the pack, forever. Eh.

Re:Not looking forward to this... (1)

Lust (14189) | more than 9 years ago | (#12283743)

I share your concerns 100 percent. I'm also worried about the effect this will have on my guild and non-PvP play on my server. We're just now getting into a rhythm with Molten Core, often with our entire guild online and in the same instance. What will happen if half the members decide they prefer PvP and eventually battlegrounds? We'll have to rebuild two groups again or convince people to commit to a 6-night run at MC. Meanwhile I'm at work during the day and everyone else is building up their PvP stats towards better equipment...which I'm still lacking.

Re:Not looking forward to this... (3, Insightful)

Daikiki (227620) | more than 9 years ago | (#12283770)

You do have a point, of course, but a game like this needs to cater to many types of people. WoW has always been very friendly to the more casual players; much of the content can be taken on solo, and the rest state bonus even gives casual players a bit of a leg up by giving players who aren't online as frequently as some an experience bonus for their kills. As you've said, even as a casual player, you will be able to take on all of the challenges the game has to offer and acquire all of the uber-loot eventually.

Having said that, I think it's perfectly valid to reward the hardcore players for their efforts as well. The gear and perks you can acquire in the PVP honor system are pretty cool, granted, but they're hardly essential to your continued enjoyment of the game. There are people out there who play WoW for 40 hours a week or more, and I think it's fully justified to reward people who put a lot of time and effort into the game with some unique items, benefits, and perks. Simply letting them get the stuff everybody else will eventually get as well, only faster, just won't hold a player's attention. Bear in mind that it doesn't actually take that long to reach the level cap at 60, especially if you're a dedicated player. Until now there hasn't been much of a mechanism to keep players engrossed once they've hit the cap. I think the new honor system should fit the bill nicely without any serious drawbacks to more casual players like us.

Re:Not looking forward to this... (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12283985)

The thing is, if you see the "rewards" of playing as anything other than the fun you have while you play it, then it's time to step away and do something else for a while.

"The little cartoon character which I control is now holding a cool-looking shield, and some of the numbers on the character sheet are higher" is not a reward, it's just an interesting event.

Re:Not looking forward to this... (2, Insightful)

xutopia (469129) | more than 9 years ago | (#12284010)

I think there are ways to reward people who play more with perks that don't advantage them over people who play less. Take these ideas for example:
  • even faster mount (10%)
  • faster casts for mount and heartstones
  • faster cooldown on Heartstone
  • a second heartstone
  • unlimited free gryphon rides
  • portals instead of boats

These are just ideas and I'm sure smarter people than myself can think of better ideas. They are already advantaged by more drops because they get more chances at them but do they have to have uber gear on top of the already excellent stuff they get?

Part of the reason why WoW was so great is because of the XP bar system. It's made so that even players who play very little still can catch up relatively easily to their friends to quest together. If 4 of my friends have awesome gear and I lag behind in terms of buffing items they'll find it sucks to group with me and I don't want that.

Re:Not looking forward to this... (1)

joshsisk (161347) | more than 9 years ago | (#12285241)

I agree with a lot of that, but a faster mount and/or faster mount cast certainly is an advantage over other players... 10% faster mount than the next guy means you can get away, or chase down, more effectively.

Re:Not looking forward to this... (1)

prator (71051) | more than 9 years ago | (#12285247)

I know you were just throwing ideas out there, but those first two suggestions related to mounts are definite advantages in PvP. The ability to run down your opponent or mount up faster than them helps tremendously.

-prator

Re:Not looking forward to this... (1)

L7_ (645377) | more than 9 years ago | (#12285285)

And yet you don't think about the guilds that came from other games that *hate* running instances for items. This patch, these items, and whatever seems to be Blizz trying to cater to the Shadowbane guilds that came over together. The EQ guilds seem to be content running the upper instances, but the 10-20 member tight knit pvp guilds have nothing to do... they have thier blue set pieces and no motivation or need (or the numbers) for the MC drops. They want the added conflict...

So yes, this is definetly them trying to cater to a different crowd. There will always be those people that like to pvp and there will be those that don't: I'm actually surprised that there haven't been too many "Blizzard is ignoring the PvE content to concentrate on Pvp! Noone likes Pvp!" posts. Then again, I don't read the official forums. :x

Re:Not looking forward to this... (1)

j0nb0y (107699) | more than 9 years ago | (#12285405)

Yeah, because, you know, we want to reward the people that play the game unhealthy amounts of time. Let's screw everyone who doesn't play at least 60 hours a week!

Playing 60+ hours a week isn't dedication, it's stupidity. It's living a one dimensional life. Rewarding this isn't "justified" or "valid." It's brain-dead, plain and simple. It's the designers saying "we don't know how to reward play based on skill, so you should all play as much as you possibly can!" The players who play this game as a way of life already get plenty of rewards. They get to the high level dungeons first. They kill the raid bosses first. They get the best equipment first. Why should they also have the highest PVP ranks? Shouldn't these go out to the players who are skilled in PVP? And if you want to reward time played rather than skill, wouldn't you be better off playing Progress Quest [progressquest.com] ?

Re:Not looking forward to this... (1)

gl4ss (559668) | more than 9 years ago | (#12288028)

why shouldn't they have the high ranks..? as you said, it's a game of time - not skill.

well, maybe pvp is going to be a bit about skill, about skill of learning/automating the moves so you can get the advantage(the duels are already running-around-the-other contests).

Re:Not looking forward to this... (1)

The Kow (184414) | more than 9 years ago | (#12288310)

If you want rewards based off of pure skill, then play FPS games. If you don't want people being rewarded for the time they spend developing their character WHY ARE YOU PLAYING AN RPG?

It's not yours, or anyone else's, position to judge what someone wants to do with their time. Do you smoke? Do you drive over the speed-limit? Do you drink at all? Do you neglect to wear sun screen on sunny days? Do you work too much? Do you avoid socializing with your co-workers because you don't like people? Are you REALLY that prepared to tell people that they're doing something unhealthy with their lives? Please, the 'playing too many video games is BAD' argument is trite and over-played, and nobody's been able to come up with a good reason why.

Multi-player video games are social (not anti-social behavior). They're not as 'social' as going to a bar with your friends, but then again you don't get a DUI for running too fast to the bathroom to take a bio break between pulls in Molten Core.

Multi-player (competitive) video games inspire creativity and critical thinking (they do not rot your brain). You aren't going to beat the other guy doing the same damn thing every time. Better learn how to do things differently, or you're going to lose again.

Multi-player video games inspire teamwork (not anti-social behavior). You can't beat another team in Counter-strike all by yourself, every round. You can't capture the flag w/o teammates playing defense (or teammates getting the flag, should you be a flag d type). You can't do it by yourself, so you better learn how to play nice.

Multi-player video games do NOT encourage physical activity. Correct. Then again, neither does watching foreign films, wine tasting, cooking, reading books, blogging, or any number of other hobbies that nobody would dare question as 'unhealthy' (except maybe blogging, for psychological reasons). There are a lot of physical hobbies that don't encourage half of the skillsets that video games do, too, but nobody seems to worry too much if someone spends all their free time working on their car, for example.

There's also the notion that playing video games somehow denies you the ability to go hiking, do 30 minutes of cardio a day, undertake yoga/pilates/tae bo/kick-boxing, etc. I don't know where it came from. Several of the 'pro gamers' in the US make a point of getting physical exercise, even though they barely make enough to pay any bills, often have to work another job, etc.

Someone forgot their core competency... (0, Flamebait)

Shihar (153932) | more than 9 years ago | (#12287577)

You can make the argument that you don't need something to enjoy the game about any system. However, I think there is a reason why WoW blasted past a million subscribers and the runner up has less then half that. WoW is made for the casual gamer. Period. A casual gamer can log on, level up, and never see something that he can't eventually get. Log a casual gamer into EQ and the situation is very different. You get to see stuff all the time that takes an insane amount of free time to achieve.

The problem is two fold. First, they are destroying what made WoW such a blazing success. They are making a system that inherently a casual gamer will NEVER be able to win in. A casual gamer can never get the uber PvP armor. If only 0.1% or 1% or 5% can get it, then they will never ever get it. This is going to start pissing people off.

Second, on the PvP servers, you are handing out an advantage that that the casual player is not going to be able to get his hands on. A level 60 casual player can take on any other level 60. Start creating massive equipment imbalances that are dependent upon your 'hardcoreness' (also read as being jobless or in high school) to achieve, and casual players are going to start dropping out.

Wow should play to its strengths. That means playing to casual players. There is a difference between throwing a bone to the nuts who play 40+ hours a week and changing the focus of the game to suit them. As far as I can see for the future plans blizzard has, it seems like they have made a potentially fatal mistake of changing their focus to trying to retain that insane 5% who spend 40+ hours a week, and have stopped trying to serves the other 95% that think spending 40+ hours on a game is insane.

I personally think it is an insane move, but I suppose only time will tell. If I were to give advice to blizzard though, I would tell them to build the world outward horizontally, not up. Add more areas/quests/classes/races for all levels. Don't get caught up in the trap of chugging top end content and forgetting about the massive casual gamer player base that made the game so larger in the first place.

Re:Someone forgot their core competency... (1)

The Kow (184414) | more than 9 years ago | (#12288386)

If the casual user can get the 'uber armor' its not going to be very uber is it? You suggest maybe WoW just become an FPS that you have to wait 3-4 months to fully activate?

Funny how many casual players seem to have this sense of bitterness to the players who can play more (jealous? I am. I have guildmates who play more than I work in a week, and if I could get away with it, I might too.)

By suggesting that Blizzard's honor system somehow moves to alienate the casual fanbase, you're also suggesting that they have a single track in mind, which is incorrect. There is already a set of diminishing returns on PvP honor. The first few ranks go quickly, then they slow down as you get higher. It's just like leveling. Do you know how slow? No, you probably don't - because nobody does. So why complain until its in effect - is the sky really falling, or are you just jerking that knee of yours?

Sadly, casual players ARENT WoW's strengths. Casual players tend to play for a bit, then cancel. For those that don't, that "insane 5%" generates a community and a game economy that trickles down to the casual players and eventually gives those casual players a means to raise the bar for their own characters.

Your mistake, and I use the same rhetoric you have for full ironic effect, is that you think WoW is somehow lacking in early/mid-level content. It's not. It's really, truly, not. What it IS lacking is high-end content. Right now guilds can clear out the entire gamut of high-end content (sans Ragnaros himself) in 2 days, and probably less if they want to spend the whole day doing it. They can't go back and do it the next day, though, they have to wait 2-7 days to do any of it again. There needs to be more high-end content to drive the story development. You aren't expected or obligated or even required to keep up.

If you want to enjoy being a casual player, you can continue to do so at no additional cost or risk to yourself. Just because the hardcore players are out there having fun doesn't mean you suddenly aren't. You're worried the hardcore players will get all this special PvP gear you can't get? They probably already have PvE gear you can't get too, so why the sudden issue?

Re:Not looking forward to this... (1)

Ochu (877326) | more than 9 years ago | (#12284117)

While I sympathize completely, being in the same position, isn't this what Blizzard is intending? They want these leaders to be the people to fear if you are on the other side, or idolize if you are their allies. You wouldn't get the epic set because you aren't the best. They don't want everyone to have the epic sets, no matter how long it takes, because then it wouldn't be a mark of authority. I suppose it would make sense for them to offer some secondary reward that was accumulative... maybe discounts form shops, that sort of thing. Hell, I liked the idea of Warbucks!

Honor System has "Rest XP" (2, Insightful)

Databass (254179) | more than 9 years ago | (#12284176)

It doesn't matter if I'm the greatest PvP'er who ever lived, I will never get the epic PvP sets, simply because there's no way I can get more kills in the 1-2 hours a night I have to play than the people who have 8 hours a day to play.

To balance this somewhat, the Honor System benefits from an offline bonus the same way Rest XP does. When you are logged out, you are slowly gaining bonus points added to your honorable kills when you are logged in, the same way you get bonus XP from being logged out a long time.

It can't completely compete with people who can PvP for 16 hours a day, but it's meant to help. You can still get to the middle ranks. If you really must have the top ranks of PvP combat, something we all managed to get along without before they were in... maybe you could use the money you make from working all day to hire some teenaged gamer to fight on your account for you while you're at work! ; -)

Re:Not looking forward to this... (1)

Anonymous Custard (587661) | more than 9 years ago | (#12286651)

You seemed like you've enjoyed the game so far. Well, what's changed? So there are a few epic (honor) items that are REALLLY hard to get. How does that make it less fun for you?

Re:Not looking forward to this... (1)

meta-monkey (321000) | more than 9 years ago | (#12287953)

i'm worried that my guild mates who have a lot more time than I do will only be interested in PvP, and I will never be able to earn enough honor to progress my character though that system due to lack of time. They will no longer be interested in PvE, though which I could still advance, albiet more slowly than my guild mates. I'm worried my character progression stops here.

Re:Not looking forward to this... (1)

bonesmalone (877458) | more than 9 years ago | (#12289456)

I am curious how a casual gamer who plays 1-2 hrs a night has killed killed onyxia several times and runs MC. It just doesnt add up, i dont see casual gamers runnin those instances because they require so much time.

jESUS. wHO CARES? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12283546)

jESUS. wHO CARES?

Re:jESUS. wHO CARES? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12284527)

This is World of Warcraft, not Final Fantasy, so people do care. If it was FFXI, you might have a point. To a lesser extent EverQuest.

But seriously, for a moment, can we please get an MMORPG category for those of us who simply don't care about MMORPGs? I happen to like RPGs, but they aren't the same as MMORPGs. I'd love to be able to filter this out stuff out.

(I'd also like to see the RPG topic icon changed to something other than Final Fantasy characters, since no one in their right mind considers Final Fantasy an RPG, but that's another matter. How about just a sword and shield?)

patch won't run in wine (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12283620)

This patch also won't run in wine or cedega so now I can't play in Linux until it gets fixed.

Honor with no Dishonor (3, Insightful)

agrounds (227704) | more than 9 years ago | (#12283927)

The problem is that they have implemented an Honor system, that rewards players for continual ganking, without the supplementary Dishonor system to discourage griefing.

--There are rich rewards to be had for slaughtering any and all opponents of roughly the same level.
--There are no penalties for slaughtering any and all oppenents of lower levels.

While I realize that there was no discouragment before to stop this.. my priest still bears the scars of Stranglethorn Vale, what many fear this will lead to is roaming armadas of factions farming Honor points by killing everything in sight. I see this being the most likely outcome.

The server populations had already become overrun with NightElf and Undead stunlock rogues. There are more rogues than any other single class, as they are vastly overpowered for levelling and moreover singularly designed for wholesale murder (I used to play a rogue myself, before I retired him out of disgust for the easy win). Now, instead of farming instances and working toward saving money for great items, they can simply take the low road and farm players trying to simply quest and level a little.

Blizzard has done a major disservice to the player community, and I feel the ramifications of this will resound within the userbase as characters are dropped in favor of more rogues. They have already nerfed most of the classes into oblivion and back, this just justifies my belief that Blizzard developers do not play on live PvP servers and see what we see. I suspect that my time will be spent on a PvE server very soon.

Before you fire off a reply with a 'STFU n00b' or 'Cry some more' consider carefully how difficult it will be to run Molten Core, Maraudon, Dire Maul, Stratholm, and the like when you have effectively discouraged most other classes from levelling other than rogues.

Re:Honor with no Dishonor (1)

cypher073 (864209) | more than 9 years ago | (#12283998)

I do agree with you, but any implemented dishonor system cannot be as naive as to simply penalize you with dishonor for killing a grey pc. There are countless situations where you *must* kill players that fit that criteria. Luckily, I play on a PvE server, so this really doesn't affect me much unless I choose to let it (but I will, of course).

Re:Honor with no Dishonor (1)

jfdawes (254678) | more than 9 years ago | (#12285330)

Sure, but the developers know that. No reason at all why that can't be taken into account. Simply penalise people who statistically stand out as killing more than their share of 'greys'.

Eventually the statistics will reflect the "background noise" that represents the unavoidable killings.

Re:Honor with no Dishonor (2, Interesting)

meta-monkey (321000) | more than 9 years ago | (#12284017)

Well, keep in mind that you won't get honor points from killing players who are "gray" to you. That is, players who are much lower level. So if players are intent on farming people for honor points, they need to be killing people level 50-60. Camping level 30s won't do them any good, and they'll just be wasting their time when they could be earning honor points. The PvP rewards are only usable by level 58-60s anyway. I don't think this will have much impact on people pre-50.

That said, level 50 people are SCREWED! They are going to get farmed until they quit the game! They're green to level 60s, so they're honorable kill worthy.

Re:Honor with no Dishonor (1)

Minna Kirai (624281) | more than 9 years ago | (#12286148)

That said, level 50 people are SCREWED! They are going to get farmed until they quit the game!

Their best bet is to team up with some friendly 60s, and act as bait to lure enemy 60s to chase them. When the friendly 60s you've called come to save you, you can put in a few hits on the enemy 60s, earning you some big XP when they go down. (moving you closer to be 60 yourself)

They're green to level 60s, so they're honorable kill worthy.

Hopefully a 50 will be worth much less honor than a fellow 60.

Didn't read the honor system notes? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12284034)


There are no penalties for slaughtering any and all oppenents of lower levels.

Yet.

Re:Didn't read the honor system notes? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12285084)

Yet.

Nor will there ever be any penalties.

Re:Honor with no Dishonor (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12284149)

Cry more noob.

Re:Honor with no Dishonor (2, Interesting)

_UnderTow_ (86073) | more than 9 years ago | (#12284374)

Before you fire off a reply with a 'STFU n00b' or 'Cry some more' consider carefully how difficult it will be to run Molten Core, Maraudon, Dire Maul, Stratholm, and the like when you have effectively discouraged most other classes from levelling other than rogues.

I already see probems for rogues (and hunters) trying to get into groups for high level instances. There are simply too many of them. The problem may get worse with the honor system, but I think it will be self correcting, as people realize that there is too much competition for group slots among rogues and go back to their main characters.

My main is an Arms/Fury Warrior, and he eats rogues for breakfast, lunch and dinner. So I have no problems with the whole alliance using rogues.

Re:Honor with no Dishonor (2, Interesting)

agrounds (227704) | more than 9 years ago | (#12284582)

You have a valid and insightful point. I must admit I am somewhat spoiled, as my new main since moving to Laughing Skull a month ago, is a priest. I can count the number of groups I have been turned away from in 44 levels on two fingers. When I played my rogue, I was continually turned away unless I knew someone in the group, and my old warlock main was about 50/50 on getting into instance runs.

That said: As a priest: Much love to the warriors! You keep us alive.

Hopefully the eventual release of Battlegrounds will defer some of the player farming away from the questing zones.

Re:Honor with no Dishonor (1)

RzUpAnmsCwrds (262647) | more than 9 years ago | (#12286045)

" must admit I am somewhat spoiled, as my new main since moving to Laughing Skull a month ago, is a priest. I can count the number of groups I have been turned away from in 44 levels on two fingers."

That has to do with demographics. No one, except people like you and me, wants to be the "weak" Priest. That's OK, because the fewer Priests there are, the more in demand their skills will be.

Plus, Power Word: Shield is damn cool. I feel like I'm in a Star Trek episode: "Shields Up".

Re:Honor with no Dishonor (4, Insightful)

ildon (413912) | more than 9 years ago | (#12284993)

what many fear this will lead to is roaming armadas of factions farming Honor points by killing everything in sight. I see this being the most likely outcome.


You fail to acknowledge that perhaps this was the intended outcome. The game is desinged around player conflict. The non-PvP or "Normal" servers are designed for people who are not interested (or less interested) in this type of conflict.

You don't hop on a game of Quake and start complaining when people kill you, do you?

Re:Honor with no Dishonor (1)

Paul Cameron (3633) | more than 9 years ago | (#12287750)

With Quake you are on a level playing field. You get the same weapons, same armour as soon as you log in. On WoW you're not, you have groups of people well above your level ganking you, if you don't have buddies their level to help then all you can do is log off/go to another area.

Re:Honor with no Dishonor (3, Informative)

Chyeld (713439) | more than 9 years ago | (#12285400)

Consider this:

People who are already ganking lowbies are doing so for one of two reasons. Either they like being a-holes, or they are bored and have no incentive to do otherwise.

People who are interested in gaining Honor are going to do so for two reasons. They want recognition and they want phat loot.

If someone is already ganking, then the Honor system currently gives them incentive to concentrate on higher targets. So the majority of the bored ones are more than likely going to switch.

If someone isn't already ganking, then the Honor system gives them a reason not to. Not because they will be directly penalized by it, but because wasting time on killing lowbies when others are going for real kills is going to drop them lower in the rankings.

You will never lose the a-holes. Even if you instituted an insta-perma-ban on people who killed anyone grey to them, you'd still have people with too much time on their hands and a fist full of momma's credit cards who are willing to level someone up and get that one kill just to be a dick. But I don't see how this is going to increase their numbers at all.

What I'm really waiting to see is what happens when they finally introduce the Battlegrounds. Once those are in, you really won't have time to PvP outside of them unless you are just waiting for your turn to go in. From what I can tell, the oportunities to gain honor inside the BG will more than outstrip the opportunities outside.

Re:Honor with no Dishonor (1)

aphexbrett (220057) | more than 9 years ago | (#12286206)

One problem I've been running into recently (and am curious to see how pvp honor system handles) is getting ganged up on. I can rock anyone my lvl (I'm a shamy, that's my job) but two peeps 1-2 lvls below me can rock the f)#$% outta me. Pretty lame when I'm questing, but can I get honor for almost killing someone?

Re:Honor with no Dishonor (2, Insightful)

vitaflo (20507) | more than 9 years ago | (#12285464)

There are more rogues than any other single class, as they are vastly overpowered for levelling and moreover singularly designed for wholesale murder

And for every person who says nerf rogues, someone else will say nerf shaman, nerf priests, nerf paladins. Everyone thinks every class is overpowered, when the fact is you're either a good player or you're not.

Re:Honor with no Dishonor (1)

cypher073 (864209) | more than 9 years ago | (#12285870)

Nobody thinks mages are overpowered :)

Re:Honor with no Dishonor (1)

Sancho (17056) | more than 9 years ago | (#12286544)

I think Mages are just about the most balanced class for PvE. The talent trees are amazing, they've got multiple forms of creature control, and specializing in any of the three trees will yield someone with about equal levelling power. Frost may damage more slowly, but you can line your enemies up and go from one to the next with no downtime. Fire has a little more downtime for regen and has to be more careful with multiple enemies. Arcane is just absurd damage and reduced threat, meaning grouping becomes easier.

In a sense, mages are overpowered in that they are so very versatile. It's hard to fuck up a talent tree with your mage, and there is no class I can think of that is simply superior to the mage.

Re:Honor with no Dishonor (1)

agrounds (227704) | more than 9 years ago | (#12288598)

I understand what you are saying. I have never called for the nerf stick, nor do I think that is an answer to the players who cry in the General forums that they got killed by a better player in another class. Nerfing is not the answer. It -is- Blizz's answer however to a lot of problems that don't exist outside of whiny little kids' ranting posts.

That said: As a former rogue, I feel somewhat justified in saying they are overpowered. I am a big enough person to recognize it for what it is. This is the reason I quit playing my rogue. If I had only played one or two classes, then you would be correct in your assessment. However I have played every class in the game now except Shamans. There is not a single class that definitevely stands out in my mind as being completely overpowered other than rogue. Even a poorly played rogue will still be able to go toe-to-toe with mobs levels higher, or elites of the same level and win hands-down. I know I was able to with no trouble.

That said, I am not bleating like a sheep. There was no call for nerfs or other implied whines in my post. Just the observations that are verifiable with a simple /who in any zone.

Is there a stand alone downloadable patch? (1)

antdude (79039) | more than 9 years ago | (#12283933)

Does anyone have the downloadable v1.3.1 to v1.4 patch so we don't have to use Blizzard's downloader? Dial-up connections suck for it especially when I can't cap the upload.

Thank you in advance. :)

Re:Is there a stand alone downloadable patch? (1)

BrookHarty (9119) | more than 9 years ago | (#12284810)

I grabbed mine off fileplanet. Wait in line or pay.

Re:Is there a stand alone downloadable patch? (2, Informative)

antdude (79039) | more than 9 years ago | (#12285089)

Thanks. I didn't find it there earlier when I checked. SOmeone told me FileShack [fileshack.com] has a copy too.

Going at 225KBPS for me at... (1)

BarryJacobsen (526926) | more than 9 years ago | (#12287108)

This Place [gamershell.com] (The Asian servers had 3 people on)

Re:Is there a stand alone downloadable patch? (2, Informative)

endx7 (706884) | more than 9 years ago | (#12285479)

Filefront [filefront.com] has it.

Re:Is there a stand alone downloadable patch? (1)

chrispyman (710460) | more than 9 years ago | (#12286364)

Get it here [fygar.net] ... No idea how long it'll be up though.

Re:Is there a stand alone downloadable patch? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12287998)

I love you man.

Re:Is there a stand alone downloadable patch? (1)

McCarrum (446375) | more than 9 years ago | (#12287868)

http://www.3dgamers.com/ [3dgamers.com] get in before the line starts

UH OH (1)

Vampyre_Dark (630787) | more than 9 years ago | (#12284005)

Thanks to this most recent slashdotting, WOW will be down for another 14 days.

patch day (1)

endx7 (706884) | more than 9 years ago | (#12285524)

I hate patch day.

Nearly every server is down in some way or another (even if the specific server shows up it is either barely up and non-functioning or lying or both).

That said, for the short amount of time I was able to connect, I could tell that Tarren Mill was -definately- under attack. That's the honor system for you.

Back of Rogues (2, Interesting)

Holdstrong (647528) | more than 9 years ago | (#12285702)

For starters, on my Server, Rogues are NOT the most played class. In fact, they are not even in the top 3. So stop making generalizations about the entire game bassed on your experience on one server. Next, complete stun lock is a myth. It just doesn't happen the way the Nerf Rogue crowd would have you believe. Stun lock is a method of keeping your opponent stunned so you can build up combo points and get off your big damage move. Stun lock ONLY happens if the Rogue gets off the first hit, and is only successful in a one on one environment because any other damage to stunned player will break the key stun in the combo. Even IF the rogue executes his perfect stun lock combo... a player of equal level will not be dead. And of course let us recognize that many classes have stun lock counters... such as the mage Blink. Last, The reason Rogues do not get invited to end content is not because there are so many of them. It is because they are absolutely useless end game. This is readon I ditched mine - a leather wearing aggro whore is not a fun character to be running around with when mobs hit you for 1k damage. (about 1 fourth of a good rogues health) So please, back off the rogues.... if a lot of people are playing them it is because they are fun to level, and they are relatively easy to play. A poorly played rogue will beat almost any other poorly played class. But with two evenly skilled players at level 50+, a Rogue is almost ALWAYS at a disadvantage. If you think a Rogues are godly in WoW you have either never played on to 60, or you simply dont know howto play your current character.

Not a flame really!!! Just ranting out of glee! (1)

extra the woos (601736) | more than 9 years ago | (#12287597)

hahahahaha*gasping for air* hahahah... excuse me... lol... lmao.. hahahaha *can't stop laughing*... i always figured WoW, after a while, would turn out like EQ, wher the powerful classes whined more than the weaker ones... guess I was right! Yeah... it's hard for rogues to get off the first hit in a one on one pvp... really hard.. not like they could walk up undetected huh? That could NEVER happen...!!! Rogues were whining hardcore at the thought of track hidden being upgraded... looks like it got upgraded anyway this patch! lol

"But with two evenly skilled players at level 50+, a Rogue is almost ALWAYS at a disadvantage"
Uhhhhhhh....well you obviously think you are a skilled player so you are using your potions and poisons i'm sure. The basis of the rogue class is being stealthy and unfair. Now, this causes people to complain about rogues when they shuld stfu but...It also causes rogues to forget that they can't expect to be as good when they dont get that surprise attack in. Really, the only class that really gets much as far as rogue-awareness is hunters. Stuff like sitting on your freezing trap when you are medding up, etc. Flare, and now track hidden is goign to be fixed they say. But that is only one class. Any cloth person that you get the jump on should prolly be as good as dead. Now, if you don't get the jump on them, well they should be able to win more than half the time I would hope. A rogue complaining that they can't win in pvp when they don't get the jump on someone is like a mage complaining that they can't win in PVP if they are out of mana.. well DUH that is the point of your class. And in GROUP PVP I have heard *no* complaints about the power of rogues. Lets wait and see where things are when the battlegrounds come out.

Rogues are the number 1 played class... maybe not on your server... but they are number one! Why? Because they are a powerful class. Too powerful? No, they are just fine...They don't need to be nerfed at all. But come on, useless in the end game? Rrriiggghtttttt.

Reminds me of rogues whining that they were useless in the elemental planes in EQ...OHHH the ae's on a few mobs in each plane kill me, nevermind that I out damage people on the othe other mobs! Omg i'm not the best all the time something is wrong n3rf everyone 3lse!~ And yes I raided the EP's every week way back in the day, before gates etc and they ruined eq even worse lol. It was also funny to watch the people on the necromancer boards whine about their stuff, when they were one of the few people who could really solo for xp well in the higher planes. But ohhhh they thought they were sooo persecuted.

In world of warcraft, rogues aren't godly.. but they are *JUST FINE*... paladins and shammies are prolly the most "godly" comparatively, but still not unfairly good, they are just fine. Granted, shaman might be a bit too good in the fact that it sure seems like if the person is a hoarde, ther is a good chance they are a shammy. But that is prolly due more to there needing to be another class or two on each side, lots of people like to tank and heal, and on hoarde there is (obviously) no paladin soooo..

It's not like EQ where it's a full time job to play. You can login to WoW for 30mins and get stuff done. Running your friend's low level alts through instances is one of the most fun and fulfilling things in the game, and can be done in 2hrs or less. No major time commitment in WoW. If you aren't having fun with one character, put them on hold and use them to tradeskill items for your new alt. I made a warrior, a gnome too! Sure, he can't solo well like your rogue or my hunter or warlock but it is still fun fast paced gameplay.

Re:Not a flame really!!! Just ranting out of glee! (1)

bonesmalone (877458) | more than 9 years ago | (#12289525)

bravo bravo. Thanks a ton because i didnt have to say it myself.

Re:Back of Rogues (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12289335)

I'd like to know where you came to this conclusion that rogues are not the most played? Unless its from blizzard themselves, I don't trust the collected data from 3rd party sites.

2nd, there are other types of rogues besides stunlock rogues. In fact, I'd say the best are probably assassination/subtle rogues. Why? they do alot of burst damage, and still have a reasonable amount of stun.

3rd you must not be playing your character correctly, if you are having issues with aggro.
Most of the rogues I play with do not have this issue. Seeing as how they know how to hold back. Granted, its not fun when you can't go all out, but then again, dying mid battle isn't fun either

4th I disagree with your statement that with two evenly matched players, a rogue is at a disadvantage. rogues have many tools at their disposal to turn a battle to their advantage. Mages may be tough to kill, but with the right moves, a rogue can still kill them. yes, this involves getting the jump on them, but that's what rogues do. Stealth = first strike

5th I agree rogues are fun to play, and are not overpowered. They are by no means godly.

In anycase, I hope you carry around at all times, healing pots, flash powder, blinding powder, poisons, and thistle tea at the very least. If not, you are doing something wrong.

Ah crud... (2, Funny)

Apparently someone (457360) | more than 9 years ago | (#12286037)

So I go home happy, tonight.

Woot! I can't wait! I have mail coming in. Auctions going off. Guildies to see. Quests to complete and/or turn in. Yesterday was awesome, and tonight's been all planned out!

I open WoW and discover a new patch is on it's way to my machine. Oh, GOODIE!

... wait ... downloading.
... wait ... patching.
... wait ... (remember) time to recover/reconfigure UI mods.
... wait ... reconnect after 1 hour in the queue. [WUPS! disconnected from server]
... wait ... reconnect after 1 hour in the queue.
... and then, you guessed it, now we get to...

... wait for rez after being ganked.


MAN, I'm stoked!
:P

Re:Ah crud... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12289529)

Ah, that's funny, I thought you were talking about the things you wanted to do when you got onto your PvE server, but then I realized you had mistakenly chosen to play a PvE-style game on a PvP server.

There is no honor without dishonor... (0)

Banner (17158) | more than 9 years ago | (#12286769)

I have't read the most recent version of the honor system, but if it's the same as what they proposed last month, well, it's going to make things worse.

The have to institute the dishonor part of the system for it to work well. Otherwise they're just encouraging a new form of ganking. And as all ratings are FOR LIFE (remember, if you stop playing a character it does not go away!), the people who rise to the top of the system first, will always be at the top, even for a long time after when they stop playing, paying, or even living.

What Happens is: (1)

had3l (814482) | more than 9 years ago | (#12289097)

I've been playing in the test server for a while, and I will explain what the Honour System came down to basically.

Forget about doing quests, leveling, etc if you are over level 20 and under level 60. Now all constested areas are full of level 60s, and they will kill ANYTHING, since there is no dishonour.

The ONLY way of leveling now is by doing instances.

What actually happens, and blizzard probably didn't expect, is that level 60s that usually were down at high level instances or dueling, are now raiding contested areas that level 30s or so are used to level in. And those raids will kill ANYTHING that moves.

Not only that, but its now just a huge battlefield where tactics or skill is meaningless since the largest "zerg" mob wins.

If you wanna PVP, go to a PVE server. With the arena events, and with the upcoming battlegrounds, there will be PLENTY of PvPing in PVE servers, and you will be able to level up quietly and safely.

Re:What Happens is: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12289458)

Anonymous Coward? Lazy man in reality. :P

Anyways, most people 20-50 will be relatively safe on all types of servers after a week or so of the Honor System. By then, people will have realized that the only people who benefit from using the Honor System are the 58-60 crowd who can:

a) Actually use the equipment they can get through honor,

and

b) Kill other level 50-55 characters without too much trouble.

By the time most players have reached level 50, they have figured out a few ways to escape gankers and the like, and therefore may be able to still level *almost* peacefully.
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