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Open Document Format Approved

timothy posted more than 9 years ago | from the file-formats-rule-the-world dept.

Data Storage 399

An anonymous reader writes "The OASIS Group announces that the third Committee Draft [PDF] of the Open Document Format for Office Applications (OpenDocument) v1.0 Specification has been approved as an OASIS Standard. The submission of the approved standard can be found at here.
The OpenDocument format is intended to provide an open alternative to proprietary document formats including the popular DOC, XLS, and PPT formats used by Microsoft Office. Organizations and individuals that store their data in an open format avoid being locked in to a single software vendor, leaving them free to switch software if their current vendor goes out of business or changes their software or licensing terms to something less favorable."

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Porn Troll Satisfies!!! (1)

Porn Troll (822045) | more than 9 years ago | (#12429958)

She came for the second time that night as her husband continued to pound away at her by now dripping pussy from behind. She loved the way he manhandled her in bed, and loved to feel dominated by him. And his much larger than average size always left her feeling well fucked and satisfied.

Jamie and Steve had been married for a little over a year. And although their marriage was a happy one, they both felt a constant threat from others who wanted them to split up. There was always any number of men scheming to get into Jamie's pants, and always a bevy of women wanting to get Steve into their beds. One of the most obvious of those women was actually Jamie's close friend Kimberly.

As Jamie was quite a bit younger than Steve, so were all her friends. They would often drop by uninvited just so they could get to stare at Steve, spend a little time chatting, and of course, flirting with him. This didn't bother Jamie. She knew her husband appreciated beautiful women like her hot friends. He paid them little attention however, and always said he only had eyes for her...but did he, she often wondered?

"NO Steve!" she screamed, as she was jolted out of her orgasm-induced stupor by the feel of his cock at the crack of her ass. He was always trying to get her to try anal sex and she was always denying him.

"Fuck my pussy some more if you want, but leave my ass alone" she told him. "I'm sorry baby, I just want to fuck your ass so badly" he caressed her perfectly round tight ass cheeks. "No Steve, I told you, you're too big!" She crawled up in bed and under the covers leaving Steve hanging, then added. "It's too bad you're not married to Kimberly, she loves it up the ass" she hissed.

She trailed off into sleep leaving Steve with his still hard cock in his hand and visions of fucking her friend Kimberly's ass in his head. He had never really fantasized about any of Jamie's friends until that moment. He stroked himself faster, and came pretty quickly. He then cleaned up and soon drifted off to sleep as well.

The following day Jamie told Steve she was going shopping and Kimberly might pass by to drop off an outfit she had borrowed. "No problem I'll be here". He had forgotten all about Jamie's comment on her friend but those thoughts quickly came flooding back when Kimberly came to the door. "Hi Steve, is Jamie home?" He stared at her for a second without speaking. She looked so innocent yet so slutty. Her face was angelic but her scant clothing told a different story. She wore a tight tank top that stopped well short of her waist, and very low-slung jeans way down on her hips accentuated her firm round ass. The strings of her thong were readily visible above the waistband of her jeans.

"Ummm, sorry Kimberly, Jamie went out shopping but you can give me her outfit and I'll make sure she gets it". "NO, that's ok, I'll wait if you don't mind" she said as she barged in past him. The little bitch was pushy too, Steve thought to himself, but he didn't protest and let her make herself at home. She walked over to the living room, and although she was a petite girl, her ass was too big for her frame but she carried it well. It almost reminded Steve of J-Lo's ass, the way her jeans were so tight and rode up her crack. She turned back to look at him and caught him staring. "You're such a naughty boy Steve, its good thing I don't tell" She chuckled. "But you owe me one".

The little bitch was playing with him. "You know Kimberly, with a body as sexy as yours and the way you dress, you must really like men staring at your ass, and fantasizing about it". She spun around to face him. "Whatever do you mean Steve?" Her voice was innocent sounding but she was betrayed by the way she batted her eyelashes flirtatiously.

"Men must want to fuck you up the ass all the time". He said salaciously, totally over-emphasizing the F sound. She subconsciously licked her lips and responded to his indecent comment. "If you're asking me if I like to get fucked up the ass, yes I do. I fuckin` love it!!" She stopped for a second and decided to continue "Why Steve? Have you ever fantasized about it?"

Steve decided that he would see how far she wanted to play this little game with Kimberly. "Yea, I ask Jamie for it all the time, but she won't let me." She walked over to where he was standing and looked him in the eyes, and he looked back at the shimmering blue pools she had for eyes. She paused only a second before continuing to up the ante in their game of sexual poker. "No, Steve... I asked if you have ever fantasized about fucking me up the ass?" This was a challenge neither one would back down from now.

He grabbed her by waist and jammed his by now hard throbbing cock against her sweet round ass. "Would I like to stick my big fat cock into that little tight asshole of yours, Kimberly? YES, I would!" He grunted as he thrust against her ass again for emphasis. "I hope you're not all talk then."

She reached around to feel the bulge in his pants and almost gasped at the size. "Oh my God, this is probably why she won't let you". His cock was rock hard and he thought he would cum just at the thought of fucking Kimberly up the ass. "You know Jamie and I share all kinds of dirty little secrets...how about we make one of our own, Steve?"

Now that Kimberly had committed to it, Steve decided he would make her work for it. "Are you asking me to cheat on my wife Kimberly?" He taunted her. But Kimberly had not come this close to having his magnificent cock to be deterred. She smiled lightly "No Steve, I'm simply asking you to take me into the bedroom and fuck my ass until I feel you shoot your cum inside it". Steve moaned at the thought. "Well I hope you like it rough then. Now get your ass into the bedroom... NOW!" He ordered her.

He was going to have some fun today. He totally pushed any thoughts of his wife finding out right out of his head. They had had threesomes and shared women before, but this was a totally different ball game. If Jamie found out, he would risk losing her forever, but his cock wouldn't let him back out now.

"I love a man who is in control". Kimberly squealed as she hurried into the bedroom, where she immediately took off her jeans. She was wearing a skimpy little black thong, which was tucked deep in her ass crack. He couldn't resist slapping her shapely ass, and she squealed again.

She threw her arms around his neck, and giggled. "I want to kiss you first." But Steve was in no mood for romance. "Too bad Kimberly, because that's not why you're here." She was taken aback by his direct answer, and her spoiled princess persona kicked into high gear. "Well Steve, no kiss, no ass". She pouted and folded her arms across her pert tits.

Steve was enraged by her attitude... This fucking bitch was NOT going to manipulate him. He was going to teach her a good lesson, one she wouldn't soon forget.

He grabbed her by the hair and pulled her mouth to his. He slipped his tongue deep inside her mouth almost choking her with it. But in her aroused state, being taken this way made her even more excited and she kissed him back without hesitation. She was making out with her friend's husband and soon he'd be fucking her, it didn't get better than this. She could feel herself moan and her panties moisten at the thought.

"Now it's time to give you a fucking like you've never had" Steve hissed in her ear. "Go get on the bed." Without even removing her panties, she went over to the bed and got on all fours. "Fuck me now Steve! I want you so bad!" she moaned while she watched him undress over her shoulder. He removed his pants and boxers slowly, almost teasing her as he did. As his cock sprang into view, her eyes widened at the size of it. It sprung out like a soldier, and she moaned when she heard it slap against his tight abs.

He went over to where she was positioned on her hands and knees, and stared at the lovely ass. It was his turn to moan in anticipation as he massaged her cheeks, first one, and then the other. Without warning he slapped her exposed cheek sharply. "Owww, what are you doing? Stop that!" She demanded. Steve laughed and brought his hand down hard again on her other cheek. SMACK "You don't run the show here Kimberly, I do."

She was indignant at his treatment and yelled at him. "Stop that right now or I'm leaving". He laughed at her comment "Leaving? No problem, I'll be happy to tell Jamie you stopped by, oh and by the way, of how you tried to seduce me. I'm her husband, and she will believe anything I tell her... as opposed to you who she knows never tells the truth". She got up and faced him with tears in her eyes. " You can't do that. Jamie's the only close friend I have. You wouldn't, would you?" "Watch me, baby!" He challenged. "Now we need to get going, or YOU need to be going, permanently."

She looked at him with tears in her eyes and repositioned herself on all fours on the bed. As he slipped his hands under her thong and pulled it down, she helped him remove it. "Now that's a good girl Kimberly". Then without waiting for instructions, she spread her legs apart and he could see her glistening pussy. "Mmmmm. The bitch is turned on by all this." He thought.

He grabbed his big fat cockhead and rubbed it between her lips, and then against her ass. "You like that don't you?" She moaned softly, and bit her lip, but didn't reply. "Tell me you want it, I know you want it" he taunted. "I don't" she answered him. He slipped one hand under her, sliding his index finger between her pussylips. "Your wet lips don't lie".

"Yes I want it, now fuck me...please fuck me... now" she moaned. "Not yet" He teased, as he continued to rub his cock up and down her wet slit.

SMACK a blow to her right cheek SMACK a blow to her left one. She bit her lip to keep from crying out. SMACK SMACK SMACK SMACK SMACK "That's for wanting to fuck your best friend's husband." He smiled to himself as her ass turned a crimson red. And just before she protested, he pressed his cock firmly against her asshole. She moaned in a combination of pleasure and pain as she felt her sphincter begin to give way to the head of his cock. As it slipped inside her stretched out hole, she gasped. He rammed in its entire length and she almost screamed. "Relax honey, it'll feel good in just a second". He slipped his cock halfway out and slammed it back in again. Kimberly didn't protest but instead she moaned.

"Fuck yesssss".

Steve held on to Kimberly's hips and rammed his cock deep inside her asshole, stretching it further with each thrust. "You like getting fucked up the ass don't you, you little whore?" Between pleasure and pain she managed to utter only a simple "yes". "Good" He ass fucked her faster and harder until she was completely enjoying it. "Godddd that feels so good". She moaned as she submitted completely to him. She was nothing more than a play thing, a fuck toy for him, and he knew she would do anything he asked at that moment.

He started slowing down his pace, fucking her at a slower rhythm, he wanted her to ask for it, beg for it. How he loved when a woman begged for it. "Steve...don't stop...please...fuck me faster...cum inside my ass". "Oh I'm going to fill that hole good you little whore, don't worry"...he continued to move his cock going slightly deeper with each thrust.

"You are so fuckin' hot I can't believe Jamie doesn't let you fuck her this way". Kimberly moaned. Her mentioning his wife angered him, he slammed his huge cock violently deep inside her ass and she screamed. "You're such a fucking tease you know that?" He grabbed a handful of her hair and yanked her head back. "I'm going to cum inside your ass and you're going to fucking love it". He laughed almost mockingly. He rammed it in with full force and she moaned again "Fuck, you slut, I'm going to cum inside your tight little whore ass".

Her hips moved back and forth to meet his cock. "God Yessss Steve fuck it, I'm going to cum too!". Just then he couldn't hold it anymore, he exploded in her ass, filling it with his hot cum "Ahhhhh yes, take it you little whore". Kimberly felt his hot cum spraying inside her ass and this pushed her over the brink as well. She came as hard as she had ever cum in her life, thrashing around on the bed and screaming. "OH God.... yesss, Steven, yesssssssssssssss!" She cried "I'm Cumming". As their orgasms subsided, he collapsed next to her.

"That was fuckin incredible," she said as she turned around to look at him. He was already dressing in silence, but she couldn't resist, she needed more of that magnificent cock. She scampered across the bed and knelt before him and started sucking him again. "Mmmm Steve, I love your cock, you need to give me more."

He said nothing, but simply smiled wickedly, got up and got dressed. She followed his lead. Steve got them each a beer, and they turned on the TV. A short time later as they sat on the couch, Jamie walked in. They were surprised to see her home so soon.

"Hi honey. Oh hi Kimberly, you're here already. Let me just put my jacket away, I'll be right back." Jamie walked into the bedroom, hung her coat in her closet, and threw her bags on the bed. As she turned to return to the living room, she noticed what appeared to be fresh cum on the sheets. "Hmmm, So this is what my best friend and my husband have been up to when I'm not here" She thought to herself...

Ironic (4, Funny)

R.D.Olivaw (826349) | more than 9 years ago | (#12429960)

Open Document Format approved! Read all about it!*

*Acrobat reader required

Re:Ironic (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12429970)

Actually, it's not ironic.

PDF is an open format, with many non-acrobat readers for it. And one can't expect it to be in the format which the document specifies... it just got approved after all.

It would be ironic if it were in .doc...

Re:Ironic (2, Funny)

Doyle (620849) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430057)

And one can't expect it to be in the format which the document specifies... it just got approved after all.

Yes we can, dammit! [slashdot.org]

Re:Ironic (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12430195)

Maybe he was referring to it in same way Alanis Morisette refers to irony.. as in, calling something ironic when its not? ;)

Re:Ironic (1)

gsasha (550394) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430212)

It wouldn't be ironic. It would actually be moronic.

Re:Ironic (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12429976)

I suppose you'd rather it was in the new Metro format? If you don't like Adobe Acrobat then use xpdf, KPDF etc.

Re:Ironic (4, Informative)

1u3hr (530656) | more than 9 years ago | (#12429978)

Open Document Format approved! Read all about it!* *Acrobat reader required

PDF is an open format. Ther are several non_Adobe PDF readers, eg GSview [wisc.edu] .

Re:Ironic (1)

0x461FAB0BD7D2 (812236) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430079)

The problem with GSView is that it doesn't have a browser plugin, at least not for Mozilla, AFAIK.

The solution [Win32]: Adobe Acrobat 7 for the browser, GSView for the system.

It may be a little inconvenient, but it does help in reducing load on the system.

Re:Ironic (4, Insightful)

Taladar (717494) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430112)

That might be related to many people seeing the PDF-Browser-Plugin as an annoyance instead of a feature.

Re:Ironic (2, Informative)

rsidd (6328) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430118)

The problem with GSView is that it doesn't have a browser plugin, at least not for Mozilla, AFAIK.

Why would you want a browser plugin? I click on pdf files, and xpdf opens them in a new window. I like that.

That said, if you want it opened in your browser, use konqueror (it can embed kpdf), or try plugger [hubbe.net] .

Re:Ironic (1)

0x461FAB0BD7D2 (812236) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430173)

My post was intended for those using Windows, for which konqueror is unavailable.

One reason why people would want a browser plugin is because it keeps it all in one window, which is very much the reason tabs exist.

Re:Ironic (1)

millette (56354) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430192)

OpenOffice.org XML format [oasis-open.org] is also available, although you wouldn't expect to see that in a slashdot article, of course.

nice but not exactly hardware (2, Informative)

clsc (730336) | more than 9 years ago | (#12429962)

- posted in hardware?

Re:nice but not exactly hardware (2, Informative)

say (191220) | more than 9 years ago | (#12429969)

Just data storage, which /. in its infinite wisdom places into the hardware category.

Re:nice but not exactly hardware (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12430151)

When I read your comment, I thought to myself, I'll bet anything Timothy posted this one. Sure enough, when I scrolled to the top....

Open Document Format FiPo (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12429963)

This is the first post in open document format.
Thank you for your attention.

Hardware? (-1, Redundant)

1u3hr (530656) | more than 9 years ago | (#12429964)

The definition of a document format is "hardware"?

Re:Hardware? (3, Funny)

Timo_UK (762705) | more than 9 years ago | (#12429998)

Only if you chisel it in stone...

Probably doomed (3, Insightful)

Ray Alloc (835739) | more than 9 years ago | (#12429972)

I doubt M$ will ever support this format, or else their main revenue stream would be endangered.

Re:Probably doomed (4, Insightful)

famebait (450028) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430023)

Depends on how many governments pass laws requiring public records to be in open well-specify formats so it will be possible to reaqd them in the future (as the bloody well should)

Re:Probably doomed (3, Insightful)

beh (4759) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430237)

So?

Even then they would probably try and sabotage it - be slightly incompatible (make sure that the exported data has some "extra bits" in that only M$ can really make heads or tails of - or introduce other little incompatibilities...

Big deal...

Re:Probably doomed (5, Insightful)

Technician (215283) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430083)

I doubt M$ will ever support this format, or else their main revenue stream would be endangered.


I expect them to embrace it in their usual way. They will provide an input filter so their software is compatible with it. (it can open it).
Expect a few roadblocks on exporting to it.

Clippy, "I see you are trying to export a document. You will loose your macro's and formatting if you do. Do you wish to continue?"

If you select yes, expect everything from font selection, to headers and footers, to paragraphs, photo layout, etc., will need re-done in the other simplistic software. In short, it'll import, but editing and saving in a non-MS format will have problems. Expect MS to treat it like ANSI text.

Re:Probably doomed (1, Interesting)

KiloByte (825081) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430208)

Expect MS to treat it like ANSI text.

For their usual meaning of ANSI -- that is, "our own incompatible 'standard' that's inconsistent with even our own software".

Have you messed with console-mode Win32 programming? What the call "ANSI" is bad, bad mojo that bears all marks of intentional sabotage.

Re:Probably doomed (1)

Jugalator (259273) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430250)

If you select yes, expect everything from font selection, to headers and footers, to paragraphs, photo layout, etc., will need re-done in the other simplistic software.

Huh? It isn't even this bad with the limited RTF format.

Nice! (3, Insightful)

RichiP (18379) | more than 9 years ago | (#12429974)

Any word from the other OpenSource/Free Software office suites if they're planning on supporting (if not totally moving) to the new formats?

What are the criteria for approving standards by the OASIS group? Is there any guarantee on the quality of the standard itself?

Re:Nice! (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12429991)

KOffice and AbiWord are said to be adopting the new document format. I would imagine other open source office projects will, too.

Re:Nice! (5, Informative)

say (191220) | more than 9 years ago | (#12429996)

What other office suites? You mean all the office suites except OpenOffice, StarOffice, KOffice and the Gnome Office project, which all are planning to use/are already using it?

Re:Nice! (1)

zwei2stein (782480) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430000)

They prorably (most surely) will at least support it.

But what is really important, will m$ word even try reading it?

you can make open format, but without support from this editor, its not gona change anything since format lock-in is still in efect ...

Plugin for Winword? Govt buyers could get it done. (1)

CdBee (742846) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430185)

MS Word does support plugins to read/write obscure file formats -you can install some from the Office CD which aren't installed by default

So it should be possible to add that functionality. However - I believe that if Govt buyers specify OASIS compatibility as a requirement then MS will be obliged to provide it eventually (much better than requiring relicensing of .doc just for Govt employees, as was previously achieved)

Re:Nice! (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12430002)

Ehm, the OpenSource/Free Software office suites were the ones pushing this in the first place.

But to answer your question, yes, both Openoffice2 and Koffice-1.4 are going to switch to the format and Openoffice-1.4 already supports it.

Btw., does anybody know how abiword is going to handle it?

Re:Nice! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12430006)

Last time I tried OpenOffice 2.0-Beta it stored docs as OpenDocument Format by default.. so I guess it's already implemented.

PDF? (-1, Troll)

The boojum (70419) | more than 9 years ago | (#12429982)

Is anyone else amused that the draft is in PDF form?

Re:PDF? (1)

maxwell demon (590494) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430047)

Is anyone else amused that the draft is in PDF form?

No. But if it had come as a .doc file, that would have been amusing.

Re:PDF? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12430056)

I am amused by the fact that you are modded +1 Troll.

Re:PDF? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12430194)

Dear guy-who-modded-that-troll:

You are a jackass.

Re:PDF? (4, Informative)

Truth_Quark (219407) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430214)

.pdf has been something of a standard for file formats for some time now. All the reports produced by our branch at work are supplied in this format when electronic formats are included.

There is a mis-perception that it is not an open format by people who only know microsoft office, because the most reliable method of converting MS office documents to .pdf is by printing to acrobat distiller, for which you need to buy about $300 worth of Adobe software.

Open office exports to .pdf from the file menu. This functionality cost $0 to include, because the format is open. If Microsoft had a business model that involved providing useful tools to their customers they could have included the same functionality, with the same $0 in licensing costs to them.

However since it is more important to them that they have as large a proportion of the world as possible locked into their own proprietary formats, so you find that despite charging you $600-$900 dollars simple, cheap, useful functionality is not included.

And the consequence? People think that .pdf is a proprietary format! You should realize by now that Microsoft's (illegal) business model is doing a great disservice to their customers and the world.

They are not selling a product that is good for their customers. They are selling a product that instead ensures that they will not have to sell a product that is good for their customers in the future.
Still want to buy their stuff?

Re:PDF? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12430263)

Yeah I do, actually. Word is great. PDF is crap bloatware whether its open or not.

use of pdf (-1, Troll)

SpudGunMan (456448) | more than 9 years ago | (#12429986)

i find it funny that they use pdf as the document to distro the open document. why not RTF or TXT.. w00t long live TXT

Microsfot a sponsor (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12429989)

God knows why, but they are listed.

What about Bill (4, Interesting)

tacocat (527354) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430001)

The question still remains:

  1. Will Open Office, AbiWord, et al adopt this?
  2. Will Microsoft adopt this?
  3. Will adoption mean Default, Available Option, or partial support (import only)
It's a step in the right direction, no doubt, but how will this be addressed in practice?

Re:What about Bill (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12430015)

1. Yes, at least OO and Koffice will, I'm not sure about Abiword though, which doesn't mean that much, I simply don't know what they are planning to do.

2. Probably not.

3. In the case of OO and Koffice at least it will mean default.

Re:What about Bill (1)

apache guevara (776292) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430029)

Adoption by the existing programs does not really amount to much. No one will change the world by writing just a plug-in for another program.

If there is an open architecture for documents which is seamlessly convertible to and from doc/pdf et all, then we have a winner! I should be able to convert existing files to a new format in addition to just creating files in a fancy new format. Then again it should be snappy to convert my .open.source files to .doc.

And yes ... I have heard of HTML

Re:What about Bill (1)

bafio (879076) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430041)

1) Open Office acutally is mostly where the format comes from! Koffice will / is adopting it 2) No, MS will not adopt it, at least not anytime soon, it has only to lose from this format's success 3) for OO and Koffice, it means default.
I think it's quite promising as it is, try to download the last OpenOffice beta to see it in action. It's the default file format there

Re:What about Bill (4, Informative)

cgranade (702534) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430058)

With respect to (1), OpenOffic.org and KOffice have both announced that OpenDocument will be their new native file format. This is one of the biggest changes in OO.o 2.0. You can try it for youself in the beta, OO.o 1.9. As for KOffice, I don't know when they are planning on having an OpenDoc version out, and as for AbiWord, I haven't heard much (I don't really follow AbiWord).

Re:What about Bill (4, Interesting)

xortw (767546) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430060)

Sponsor Members include... *drumroll*:
Microsoft

Re:What about Bill (3, Informative)

FridayBob (619244) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430094)

That only means that they wanted to influence the process. Whether or not
they plan to adopt the new format(s) is a completely different issue.

Re:What about Bill (2, Informative)

Jackdaw Rookery (696327) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430099)

Really? Where do you have that from? I see no mention of Microsoft.

On the website when I click on 'Members' it lists:

OASIS Open Document Format for Office Applications (OpenDocument) TC

This page lists the OASIS members currently on this TC's membership roster. People with the role of Member, TC Chair, or Secretary are voting members of the TC. Prospective Members will become voting members after attending the first meeting of the TC or by completing a probationary period.
Person Organization Role
Tom Magliery Blast Radius Inc. Voting Member
Nathaniel Borenstein IBM Voting Member - Probation
Xiaowei Hu IBM Voting Member - Probation
Gary Edwards Individual Voting Member
David Faure Individual Voting Member
Patrick Durusau Society of Biblical Literature (SBL) Voting Member
Michael Brauer Sun Microsystems* TC Chair
Lars Oppermann Sun Microsystems* Secretary

Re:What about Bill (1)

Errtu76 (776778) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430063)

I don't think Microsoft will adopt it. Because if they do (in MS Office for example) it means they'll have to support it. Imagine MS giving support for an open source project that they don't even own.

OpenOffice is another matter though, and i don't see any reasons why they wouldn't want to support it. *especially* if MS decides not to ;)

Re:What about Bill (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12430081)

>>Imagine MS giving support for an open source project that they don't even own.

If you'd bothered to visit the OASIS site you would have found that MS is, in fact, a sponsoring partner!

Still, never let the facts get in the way of your blind predjudice!

Re:What about Bill (2, Funny)

geirt (55254) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430182)

>Imagine MS giving support for an open source project that they don't even own.

Imagine MS giving support.

abiword unfortunatly not very interested (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12430187)

A short googling doesn't give many results with abiword related to oasis.

It seems not even in February 2005 to have been worth a discussion:
http://www.abisource.com/mailinglists/abiword-user /2005/Feb/0002.html [abisource.com]

patent trouble (4, Insightful)

moz25 (262020) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430004)

Is the any indication if their proposed format is entirely free of patent issues? Given the office format patents that MS has applied for recently, that could be an issue.

Re:patent trouble (3, Insightful)

0x461FAB0BD7D2 (812236) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430159)

Is there any indication that Microsoft's patents themselves are free of patent or prior art issues? Seeing as how the USPO and other patent offices around the world are swamped, I doubt that all of Microsoft's patents will hold up.

In any case, suing open-source projects like OpenOffice or KOffice doesn't help Microsoft at all. The lawsuit will be extended, not unlike IBM and SCO. With IBM, Novell, RedHat and others relying on projects such as these office suites to help them provide alternatives for their customers, they'd most likely join the suit to make sure that they don't lose a project critical to Linux's growing adoption.

In the best case scenario, those products are taken off the market in the US, and other countries where they sue, and win. That would leave many parts of Asia, Africa and South America, which are Microsoft's biggest targets as those places are developing quickly.

In the worst case scenario, they lose respectability for suing a legitimate project, further adding to the claims of monopolistic tendencies against them. Reputation and respectability aid trust, which is critical for software houses.

I don't believe Microsoft will sue. I hope for their own sake, they don't.

Re:patent trouble (1)

js7a (579872) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430196)

Microsoft hasn't exactly been rational about litigation in the past. Who knows what they will do?

The important thing is that they will probably not be able to get an injunction unless they have a clear-cut infringement case, and that's not at all likely for a set of open formats covering long-understood functionality.

I'm not convinced this will work (4, Insightful)

Gilesx (525831) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430007)

It's all very well having an open document system, but let's look at this in detail:

For this system to work, every office app needs to adopt this file format. That way, companies can theoretically switch between vendors. Why would Microsoft, who already have the lion's share of the office market include this format? That would surely be shooting themselves in the feet.

If there were, say, three competing office suites each with 33% of the market share, then you could understand them wanting to include support for this format - companies would demand that the app supported them or switch to an alternative. However, when one office suite controls anything in the region of up to 96% of the market share, it'll take a lot more than a common open file format to persuade the average business to move away from a program that is pretty much the standard, whether we like it or not.

MS isn't afraid. (3, Insightful)

CthuluElder (700480) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430026)

They can just keep .doc as the default option for saving files. Most users never change the defaults, that's why I still get forwarded messages as attatchmets from outlook users.

Microsoft and format compatibility (5, Insightful)

jesterzog (189797) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430231)

They can just keep .doc as the default option for saving files. Most users never change the defaults, that's why I still get forwarded messages as attatchmets from outlook users.

I suspect that one of the (admittedly several) reasons that Word managed to knock out Wordperfect so many years ago was that Wordperfect didn't make a huge effort to be compatible with the competition. WordPerfect Corporation took its users for granted, and it was very slow off the blocks in a lot of ways.

Microsoft went to a lot of effort to make Word as compatible as possible with Wordperfect files, just as OpenOffice and several others are doing now, but Wordperfect Corporation didn't go to as much effort in returning the favour for Microsoft Word. My understanding is that it was more like 95% compatibility for a long time. The end result was that Word could cleanly deal with two formats, but Wordperfect could only reliably deal with its own.

The consequence? Once Word documents had reached a critical mass due to certain "other" reasons, people tended to go for the application that would allow them to easily deal with both types of documents rather than only Wordperfect files. This, of course, turned out to be Microsoft Word, and adoption of it was accelerated.

OpenDocument may not be quite the same situation, because with the OpenDocument format being... well... open, it wouldn't necessarily be too difficult for Microsoft to add support if everyone suddenly decided that they wanted it. This would be a victory in itself for other office applications, though, because it would immediately give Word-using businesses and governments the opportunity of distributing files that more people than just Word users can reliably access.

If there's a critical mass of non-Word users (which could even be a combination of Openoffice, Koffice, and whatever else), it's enough reason for many organisations to seriously consider what their standard document formats should be.

Integration (5, Insightful)

mwvdlee (775178) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430033)

Office suites aren't the only players in this market.

Since this format is Open, there are no limitations to integrating it into other products such as CMS system, reports (which is more common than you'd expect) and all sorts of other tools which a business uses.

If this integration reaches a certain critical mass where it becomes too much of an advantage for businesses to ignore, MS will have no choice but to adopt it.

Amazing (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12430037)

It's amazing to see so many people already giving up before the fight has even started.

Yes, everyone is aware of the stranglehold MS has on the market, but this new standard is exactly meant to fight this stranglehold. And I don't agree that MS has to come on board to make this a success.

1. This gives all alternatives to MS Office an advantage over MS Office, which is of course a good thing.
2. Now that it is a standard, what about governments requiring that the software they use be standard compatible?
3. Even if MS themselves don't support it, how about third party verndors, or open source hackers developing a plugin for MS Office to support this format?

To sum it up, I think it is a little more complex than you seem to think and the fight has only just started, so don't give up yet.

Re:Amazing (-1, Redundant)

gsasha (550394) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430228)

Mods! MODS! MOOOOODS!

Re:I'm not convinced this will work (1)

weg (196564) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430042)

Even IF Microsoft supports this format, it's still the question if this will work out in practise. Think of XMI: In theory, it's an open standard, but try exchanging UML models between tools of different vendors... it only works to a certain extent.

Re:I'm not convinced this will work (1)

Taladar (717494) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430140)

Your argument is the same thing as saying: The config files for my SQL Servers are not interchangable even though both use ASCII. XML is not a document format. It is a meta format on which you can build your own document formats.

Re:I'm not convinced this will work (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12430200)

The reason it won't work has nothing to do with this

Only published formats (ie no longer suitable for changes like JPEG or PDF) can be standardised effectively, works in progress contain metadata for the application software.

How does this spreadsheet "standard" cope with the fact that some spreadsheet software thinks date-time is a single real number which is merely displayed as date-time, whereas others think it's a separate data-type ? The answer is that it doesn't. How does it cope with reference types not yet thought of by the designers? It doesn't.

You might as well just use CSV and accept that you're throwing away a lot of important data. Using something a bit more complicated and hoping the data loss will be "minor" is fruitless.

Re:I'm not convinced this will work (1)

Infinityis (807294) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430261)

I could be way off base, but at least conceptually, Microsoft Word does have a place for Add-Ins. If that works anything like I assume it would, wouldn't it be relatively straightforward to write an Add-In that includes the new format as something that can be saved to and opened from?

Then when we start passing around the new file formats to our friends, we can include the Add-In (or a link to the Add-In) so they can download it and benefit indirectly. Anyone know if this is technically possible?

Hardware? (1)

dos_dude (521098) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430013)

So why is this in the hardware category? Am I missing something? Or is it because you can print out documents thus turning them into hardware?

Nice but (4, Insightful)

Mr_Silver (213637) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430014)

As much as it pains me to say this, Microsoft has such a strangle-hold over the most common document formats that this attempt will be largely useless unless they come on board.

Which they, most obviously, won't.

However, I applaud this group for at least trying. However the realistic cynic in me says that we're not going to see many gains. Hell, the average user in a company doesn't know of and has never been exposed to anything else but Word, Powerpoint and Excel.

If that's the sort of minimal marketshare the competition occupies, it's going to be a tough battle.

Re:Nice but (1)

DavidDeLux (650471) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430038)

Most (l)users are unable to distinguish the apps from the OS... which is why they don't realize that MS Office is actually separate from the OS and could be easily replaced with something else

However, I think you'll find that most copies of Office are installed in the workplace, and there is a general level of apathy about replacing it with something else - its the old syndrome of Nobody got fired for buying IBM updated to Nobody got fired for buying MS Office.

Me, I like MS Word... the early DOS version was great... it was when they upgraded to Window and the bloat became too much that it all just started to go downhill. I mean, just having startup macros was simply asking for exploits to be developed

This might have some uses (4, Insightful)

archeopterix (594938) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430074)

However, I applaud this group for at least trying. However the realistic cynic in me says that we're not going to see many gains. Hell, the average user in a company doesn't know of and has never been exposed to anything else but Word, Powerpoint and Excel.
There might be some gains in other areas, far from the average user's desktop. The point of not adhering to the standard can be raised the next time a government decides what software to buy. It can also have some meaning in anti-monopoly trials.

This of course depends on whether the standard gains some credibility. Perhaps IBM could have a stab at Microsoft by declaring their wholehearded support for the standard.

Re:Nice but (4, Insightful)

ssj_195 (827847) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430105)

The EU has been coming down particularly hard on Microsoft recently over the closed-ness of its protocols. I have absolutely no idea what this means in the long run (is it an enlightened attempt to prevent getting themselves locked in, or just a means to extort money/ discounts?), but I take heart from the fact that some government somewhere is actually taking a stand against Microsoft over closed formats, rather than simply bending over as has always been the case in the past.

As always, I end with my favourite link that I like to post in situations such as these. If you are cheered by the spectacle of a politician thoroughly demolishing Microsoft FUD, read on!

http://www.opensource.org/docs/peru_and_ms.php [opensource.org]

Re:Nice but (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12430225)

Wooow :) Nice letter :) I have to say, FATALITY!

Re:Nice but (2, Informative)

Jugalator (259273) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430122)

As much as it pains me to say this, Microsoft has such a strangle-hold over the most common document formats that this attempt will be largely useless unless they come on board.

Which they, most obviously, won't.

However, I applaud this group for at least trying.


Well, "this group" has Microsoft as a sponsor organization.

Actually, they're quite a bit [techtarget.com] involved in OASIS and standardization.

MS-OASIS (1)

CdBee (742846) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430204)

Recently a US govt department got a licencing concession from MS re use of .DOC format in non-ms software. Not a big step but it proved that MS will change the rules when threatened with competing OS products.
If a govt dept put out a requirement for software that can read and write both MS and OASIS formats natively, do you think they wouldnt tender for the contract?

A glimpse into the future (4, Insightful)

Gilesx (525831) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430046)

CONSUMER: We demand this new open file format - it allows us more choice and prevents us from being locked down to one Word Processor exclusively.

OPENOFFICE: Okay, we've included it. Now you can read and write to this new open format!

MICROSOFT: We've just added support for the new format too. You can read all open format Word Processor documents in Word. We didn't include a function to write to an open document - our users don't want that kind of complication.

OPENOFFICE: Let's sit back and wait for this open file format to kick start the OpenOffice adoption!

CONSUMER: Microsoft just offered us Office free for 5 years when they found out we were considering an open source alternative to our operating system. Word can even read all these open format files we have created in OpenOffice - let the migration begin!

OPENOFFICE: Oh dear.

A glimpse into the further future (3, Funny)

makomk (752139) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430080)

CUSTOMER: Our copies of Microsoft Office don't work on any new PCs. Help!

MICROSOFT: Tough. Shell out $500 per PC per month, or lose the ability to read your documents.

CUSTOMER: Somebody help us!!!

OPENOFFICE (silence - died years ago due to lack of interest)

XSLT? (1)

moderators_are_w*nke (571920) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430061)

Does this mean I can convert from wordML to openoffice and back with a simple XSLT?

This could make for a pretty neat web based document repository which returns documents in any format I like.

Will this make a difference? (5, Insightful)

el_womble (779715) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430062)

Everybody (/. readers not included) uses MS Office. Why? Because it is a 'standard'. OK, its a lousy standard. In fact, its more of a moving target than a standard, but the trick is that nobody knows this.

Sure they know that sometimes when they put their file on a floppy disk and put that in the post to send to their collegue half way across the office that sometimes it looks a bit different to how it looked on their computer, but then thats how computers are!?!

People don't know what word processor is unless its Word. They are taught it in school. They are taught in college and they are taught it in night classes. Its what employers want to see on CVs. People freek when they see PDFs. People freak when they see RTFs! Why? Because on windows they don't have a blue 'W' on them that lets them know its a word processing docuement.

The .doc is here for the long haul. It has survived every attempt by microsoft to improve it. It has survived some glaring security holes and it will continue to do this because consumers are not offered an alternative that they understand and that remains word compatible.

Yup, and you know what? (4, Insightful)

mcc (14761) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430065)

It won't do any good at all. It will be like esperanto; what's the point of creating an open document format if you won't be able to communicate with anyone with it? Because unfortunately, if you can't communicate with the stock install of Microsoft Word, you basically can't communicate with anyone.

Okay, yeah, I'm sure there's probably some tiny niche somewhere this fills. But the rest of us are going to have to ignore this new thingy and just continue shipping around .docs for the same reason we use .doc to transfer files now: For the benefit of people too lazy or dumb to open files in anything but Microsoft Word.

There was a period some years ago, when I first started looking for work, that I didn't have a copy of Microsoft Word, so I would send out my resume as an HTML file, or a PDF, or if it seemed appropriate both. Over this period, most of the time when I sent my resume out, the response-- even when the sent file was just an HTML file, that you double click and it opens in MSIE-- was "I can't figure out how to open your resume, do you have a .doc?" And these were mostly tech jobs I was applying for. It was kind of scary. Now I have a copy of Microsoft Word which I own seemingly solely so that I can create my resume in it, and my resume is sent out as .doc, always.

Re:Yup, and you know what? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12430111)

"...even when the sent file was just an HTML file, that you double click and it opens..."

I've the opposite problem with my parents. They click on anything they don't understand. I think it's kinda like poking something with your finger. And things go from bad to worse as they "get on a roll", and just keep clicking one damn thing after another. Their clicking habit seems to be pandemic among uninformed users.

Recruitment agents and Word documents (5, Interesting)

jesterzog (189797) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430174)

Over this period, most of the time when I sent my resume out, the response-- even when the sent file was just an HTML file, that you double click and it opens in MSIE-- was "I can't figure out how to open your resume, do you have a .doc?"

I'm in the process of looking for work now, and I've found that recruitment agents in particular tend to prefer Word documents over something like PDF or HTML.

This isn't because they can't open the latter -- it's because they like to be able to easily edit them. When a recruitment agent hands your resume to a potential employer, they'll usually want to remove identifying information from your resume. This, of course, prevents the employer from approching you directly, in which case the recruitment agent might not get their commission.

Granted that this isn't quite the same as not being able to open a resume at all, but recruitment agents in particular do often have an ulterior motive for wanting a Word document rather than a PDF, for instance.

Re:Yup, and you know what? (2, Interesting)

KiloByte (825081) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430193)

You can save it as a .rtf and rename the file to .doc, MS Word will accept that just happily and the pimp agency won't even notice it's not a genuine native Word file.

.rtf is a fairly limited but widely supported format. And, do you really need to put that animation in your resume?

I have Open Office for that. (1)

guidryp (702488) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430209)

"And these were mostly tech jobs I was applying for. It was kind of scary. Now I have a copy of Microsoft Word which I own seemingly solely so that I can create my resume in it, and my resume is sent out as .doc, always."

Will create a doc file just fine and I didn't have to pay monopolistic prices for it. Kind of scary that you didn't realize that before spending your money.

A real irony (-1, Troll)

ardor (673957) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430076)

It would have been very ironic if the specifications for an open document format had been released as DOC. However, they released them as PDF. Close enough, since PDF belongs to Adobe :)

Question (2, Interesting)

AngryScot (795131) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430101)

Can someone explain to me what differance this new format has over .doc when OO.org can open .doc files and convert most other formats into .doc files

Thanks

Re:Question (3, Informative)

ssj_195 (827847) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430161)

.DOC, as I understand it, is an absolute mess of a format (I've heard from several sources that it represents a straight memory dump of Word, but this is hard to believe). It is also closed and undocumented, and the limited interoperability OO.o has with is has come as the result of years of painstaking reverse-engineering, with no help from Microsoft.

Having an open, well-structured and well-documented format means that all word-processors will be able to write documents that will be (hopefully) perfectly readable in all word processors that implement the standard, and also ensures that we are not tied to the software of a single vendor (which might no longer exist) when we wish to view these documents years down the line (critically important for documents stored by e.g. the Government).

Re:Question (1)

WindBourne (631190) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430163)

Open Format vs. a Closed Format. OO, Kword, Abiword, WP, etc. all reverse engineer the .doc format. They never have it quite right. Worse, MS keeps changing it. Then the others are playing catch-up. OO and Kword both support (in beta) the new format. By writing to it, users will be able to switch tools.

I am waiting to see if any of the non-MS closed systems will support it. It would be nice if Lotus and Word Perfect do it as well.

In addition, it might be useful to create a batch mode tool to convert from .doc to the ODF. It can be used by all.

Re:Question (1)

Taladar (717494) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430177)

The importer for this format isn't founded on educated guesswork?

The irony of it all... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12430108)

I've just spent the last 15 minutes swearing over a damn OpenOffice .sxw file, get them to resend it in .rtf format after being harangued for using MS Office, sit down for a coffee, fire up /. for a reads and I get this...

*?

MS and Open Document Format... (-1, Redundant)

Masq666 (861213) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430120)

I wonder if Microsoft will ever support this Open Format? But it would had been great if OpenOffice, MS Office and all other office suites would support it.

Re:MS and Open Document Format... (2, Insightful)

Vo0k (760020) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430128)

Yes, they will Embrace And Extend(tm) it.

Just a question... (1)

Aioth (870942) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430139)

What's the difference between this new format and the one the OpenOffice.Org uses? Isn't it open? Or these two the same, and I'm just not comprehending?

MS Licensing and the long term (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12430142)

MS's 'Software Assurance' bulk licensing scheme is set up in such a way that you end up effectively having to re-buy all your MS-software every few years anyway. So, long-term, you have a choice of paying a fortune to Microsoft at regular intervals just to maintain your current level of licensing, or pay a smaller fortune once only in order to migrate away. The more open formats like this exist, the less painful and hence more attractive moving away becomes. Roll on the day of the tipping point!

Do Not Underestimate this.... (5, Informative)

rathehun (818491) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430146)

The importance of this standard cannot be underestimated.

Most people are approaching this from the wrong PoV.

Once there is a standard in place, then implementation occurs. And it's definitely likely to appear - first in Open Office, then maybe spreading - I can see Linux using it as the default document standard.

Microsoft will eventually have to support it - if it reaches 10% of the market, then you are going to start getting complaints from customers. Even if it only implements a read-only function, that's good enough.

I face a major productivity sapper, when I send off a .sxw to someone who can't open it. I have to open, export to .doc, check that it displays ok, and then resend. If I can happily compose in whatever editor I want, and press send without having to bother about whether a client will be able to read or not - so much the better.

As an aside, the Indian government is slowly adopting Open Office - mainly because these can be easily translated into the local language. Useful, especially in rural areas and the smaller towns. The government itself released a Tamil version of Open Office, Firefox and a bunch of other stuff. Check out their efforts here [ernet.in] .

Cheers, R.

Fasttrack it though ISO now ! (5, Interesting)

DV (10611) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430171)

Now will it be pushed though ISO (prefereably
though a fasttrack). The ISO stamp carries far
more weight for governements agencies and this
could cange a lot of things. See for example
Tim Bray's log on the subject
http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2004/09/24/ SmartEC [tbray.org]

Daniel

BTW: wasn't the September 2004 LSB spec supposed to be fasttracked though the ISO process too ?

Open formats is not the holy grail (2, Interesting)

Underholdning (758194) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430176)

Back when I was a developer I wrote all my documentation in TeX. I often get emails requesting a Word version of my documentation. Even though TeX is quite open.

Re:Open formats is not the holy grail (1)

lachlan76 (770870) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430210)

You're not supposed to read it in TeX, you're supposed to export to PDF or PS or RTF or somesuch...

The biggest non-news of the day (1)

PenguinBoyDave (806137) | more than 9 years ago | (#12430235)

I will believe it when corporations decide to adopt this new open format. Years of PDF and .doc don't go away just becomes someone comes along with an Open Format. I like it...I just don't think it will even be noticed by the major corporations of the world.
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