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File Sharing Difficulties Frustrate Tiger Admins

Zonk posted more than 9 years ago | from the catch-the-kitty-by-the-tail dept.

Upgrades 334

rmallico wrote in to mention a story currently running on Eweek about technical difficulties sites running Tiger are experiencing. From the article: "A number of sites running Apple's new 'Tiger' operating system are experiencing problems with SMB file sharing and authentication with Microsoft's Active Directory, Ziff Davis Internet News has learned. Although Apple Computer Inc.'s Tiger increases support for Server Message Block file sharing and Active Directory, several sources say that the Finder fails to log on to Windows and Linux Samba file servers."

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PORNOGRAPHY FOR ALL (-1, Troll)

Porn for the masses (882112) | more than 9 years ago | (#12460924)

Re:PORNOGRAPHY FOR ALL (-1, Offtopic)

jagsy (859881) | more than 9 years ago | (#12460939)

wow that helped me forget all my samba worries...

SKANKY ANGLE ON 'CHIC' #2 (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12460955)

PLZ FIX

Oh, right, error code -36! (5, Insightful)

xiando (770382) | more than 9 years ago | (#12460942)

The most interesting thing I noticed in the article was actually that the error message for the Connect to Server failure is "error code -36". A friend of mine who uses Mac OS X has always complained much about how the Mac never tells you anything about what is actually wrong, only gives you a number that is in no way useful for solving the problem. It is amazing this is still the case in Tiger, what in the world would be wrong with giving at least a tiny bit of information or just a hint of what is wrong? Even the good old Windows blue screen is more informative than "error code 4".

Re:Oh, right, error code -36! (5, Informative)

FidelCatsro (861135) | more than 9 years ago | (#12460958)

Its actualy very usefull if you have a list of the error codes and what they mean.
http://www.appleerrorcodes.com/ [appleerrorcodes.com]

Re:Oh, right, error code -36! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12460967)

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=980 5 [apple.com]
the offical site listings , look around to find the rest of the codes.

Re:Oh, right, error code -36! (4, Interesting)

Aphrika (756248) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461046)

It is useful until you find that error -36 is written up as:

-36 ioErr I/O error

It'll point you in the right direction I guess, but it's by no means a definitive description of the error.

I must admit that I'm a little baffled as to why Apple don't include better error reporting and descriptions in OSX. It is because they are still assuming these kind of errors will only be seen by techs that know what they mean, or are they still living in a world where they refuse to acknowledge that Macs do throw up the occasional message to the user?

Re:Oh, right, error code -36! (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12461053)

IO error can not read or write to the directory . meaning it is not there , the reason for this is Apples implementation of samba on tiger requires the full path

Re:Oh, right, error code -36! (5, Informative)

FidelCatsro (861135) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461129)

More info can be obtained from console.app in the Utilities directory under Applications(/Applications/utilities , or just go through the system logs from the terminal , but console.app is a rather nice time saver), its just a colection of the systems logs but its rather usefull and searchable .
It does give a more detailed output. for example when i try to connect to my existant SMB share it gives me
May 7 11:32:53 Xcomp kernel[0]: netsmb_dev: loaded
May 7 11:32:53 xcomp[0]: netsmb_dev: loaded
May 7 11:35:39 xcomp[0]: smbfs_aclsflunksniff: user sid S-1-5-21-2466424394-2119469220-2469460652-2002 didnt map
I would have given an example of the error output from the specific problem , but i am doing some work on the linux comp that runs my nfs and samba shares right now .

Re:Oh, right, error code -36! (2, Informative)

Trillan (597339) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461317)

... or are they still living in a world where they refuse to acknowledge that Macs do throw up the occasional message to the user?

I think this is the case. Ultimately, they'll be right -- there are only a few places where the Mac shows obscure error codes. Actually, file sharing is aobut it now. Prior to Tiger, you could also get obscure error messages for dropped connections, but Tiger introduces a pretty neat Network Diagnostic tool that it offers instead.

Considering that SMB file sharing has been a problem since 10.1, it seems to be time for a SMB troubleshooter as well.

Re:Oh, right, error code -36! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12461159)

Its actualy very usefull if you have a list of the error codes and what they mean.

Ah, but then you wonder why they could not build such a list right into the system that would translate the codes to something usefull in the actual error message.
Something along the lines:
error code -36: I/O-error

Re:Oh, right, error code -36! (2, Funny)

lachlan76 (770870) | more than 9 years ago | (#12460968)

Yeah...0x0000005c is so much better!

Re:Oh, right, error code -36! (1)

KiloByte (825081) | more than 9 years ago | (#12460981)

0xffffffdc, you meant?

Re:Oh, right, error code -36! (1)

lachlan76 (770870) | more than 9 years ago | (#12460988)

I thought 0x5c was for a segfault? I've seen it in a BSoD before...

Re:Oh, right, error code -36! (1)

KiloByte (825081) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461031)

Ah, we're just talking about different environments. 0xffffffdc = -36, while what you meant is:
0x0000005C: HAL_INITIALIZATION_FAILED

But, if you check it in the MSDN [microsoft.com] , you'll be really, really upset. The whole documentation is:
Bug Check 0x5C: HAL_INITIALIZATION_FAILED

The HAL_INITIALIZATION_FAILED bug check has a value of 0x0000005C.

This bug check appears very infrequently.
(the entire MSDN article lifted from Microsoft without authorization -- but AFAIK data of this length is ineligible for copyright)

Re:Oh, right, error code -36! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12461000)

Windows' BSOD gives a symbolic name for the error too..

Re:Oh, right, error code -36! (1)

gullevek (174152) | more than 9 years ago | (#12460993)

actually you can be happy to get an error code. Because I don't get anything. Either he connects or he just spins and does nothing.

BRRR. Sometimes, this can be really annoying.

Re:Oh, right, error code -36! (4, Funny)

moonbender (547943) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461038)

Error -1, I will never forget you.

Re:Oh, right, error code -36! (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12461112)

A friend of mine who uses Mac OS X has always complained much about how the Mac never tells you anything about what is actually wrong, only gives you a number that is in no way useful for solving the problem.

I've seen this with SMB filesharing, Mail.app, and sometimes Safari. They've all given me frustratingly useless error messages. Anyone frustrated by this should open an Apple Developer Connection account and submit a bug report to Apple's bug tracker [apple.com] . Maybe if enough people do, they'll realize this is a problem. Until then, I noticed that one of the other replies at least mentioned this site [appleerrorcodes.com] that gives some information on these codes.

Here's what I'd like to happen: error messages like "Filesharing error. Please relay these technical details to your system administrator: I tried to log in to 192.168.0.1:139 by sending a SMB_FOO_BAR and it replied with the unexpected SMB_GO_AWAY. See this link for details". They could even have the link contain interoperability information like "you're trying to connect to a Windows ME server, which doesn't work. Sorry." (Hypothetical; I've never tried this. But there's probably some such situation, and knowing it up front would save a lot of hassle.) Or even "you're trying to connect to Windows XP x.y.z; we suggest updating to x.y.z+1 to fix KBxxxx. Should work then." This is the sort of information I can often get by googling, but it's hard when the error messages can have so many different underlying causes. Better error messages and having Apple concentrate on an appropriate page (with the "Did this help?" thing at the bottom) would go a long way.

Other parts of OS X have better error behavior. For example, the crash dialog is excellent. It gives you the options of report, relaunch, and cancel.

If you pick relaunch, it will do so. If it crashes again during startup (by a timer? or before entering the main event loop? I'm not sure), it will give you the option of temporarily starting with fresh preferences.

If you pick report, it will pop up a dialog box with a stack trace in the lower half. You can examine it yourself. If you fill in information in the upper half and hit "Submit", it will send it off to Apple. It also keeps core dumps in a standard place.

Funny you should mention Error Code 4 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12461113)

.... the coffee machine at work has that one and through experience I've learned that it needs a reboot.

It a funny old world. When somethings not working now days my first reactin is to reboot. My land line phone, mobile phone, CD player and the DVD as well. Now if I could just find the reset button to my brain I wouldn't have to keep taking the pills.

Re:Funny you should mention Error Code 4 (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12461173)

The button you seek is embedded about 3" inside and 1" above the base of your skull above the back of your neck. An icpick is a suitable tool for reaching this reset button.

Some discomfort will likly be experienced before reset occurs. Don't worry, the discomfort will be discontinued once you reach the reset button.

Re:Oh, right, error code -36! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12461122)

Even the good old Windows blue screen is more informative than "error code 4".

Actually, the Windows BSOD was very informative. It's just that most people have no idea how to interpret it.

Re:Oh, right, error code -36! (2, Insightful)

JonXP (850946) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461174)

Remember, Apple's mantra is 'Users are Idiots'. They simplify everything from the buttons on the mice to the error messages.

Really, it's probably part of their 'Keep the UI as SIMPLE as possible' ideals. If they don't think a standard user will be able to do anything with that information, don't even bother telling them.

Re:Oh, right, error code -36! (2, Interesting)

Tim Browse (9263) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461229)

If I remember correctly (and I probably don't) the Mac OS error numbers came about because Steve Jobs was fed up with how long the original Macs took to boot, and loading the table of error numbers -> error messages was one of the things that got taken out to streamline the boot process. I guess it's just stuck.

I seem to remember the slow booting thing was the cause of the infamous 'throwing the prototype Mac down the stairs' Steve incident, although it's even more likely that I'm wrong on that one.

Re:Oh, right, error code -36! (5, Insightful)

Megane (129182) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461327)

Those low negative number error codes date back to 1984 with the original release of the Macintosh, but usually only a few come up. When you see them with OS X, you know you've got something with roots in the old days, like the HFS file system. And then there are the larger negative numbers (usually 4 digits) from when blocks of error codes were assigned willy-nilly to stuff like the Appletalk network stack and AFP file sharing.

And -36 doesn't help even if you know what it means, because it's just a generic "I/O error". Originally it was for media problems (like an unreadable floppy), usually accompanied by strange sounds from your disk drive, but for a network file system it's kind of silly. So even the old-timers say "yeah, that sure tells me a lot".

Other -3x range errors include file not found (-34?), end of file (-39?), and file name too long. Another good one is -50, parameter error. Well, duuuuuuh, which parameter? What's wrong with it?

The worst one to see is -127. That one means your file system data structures are in deep doodoo.

But seriously, the days of 400K floppy disks are long gone. It's total laziness that nobody bothers to print a text error message along with the number. I've been doing that in my own code since the days of 800K floppies. Even printing out the ten most common error messages as text helps most of the time.

If (-1, Flamebait)

Kurt Russell (627436) | more than 9 years ago | (#12460943)

smells like FUD..well? Billy and the boys, pissed it "just works"

Wrong choice (1)

YtsaeB (180014) | more than 9 years ago | (#12460946)

They should all be using NFS, where have they been!

Re:Wrong choice (0)

moderators_are_w*nke (571920) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461095)

Well, its a ligitimate workaround, as is the web file sharing which is also native to macos 10 and I believe there's some old school apple file sharing available as well (although thats before my time). And if that won't do, you've still got ftp and scp. So yes, while its a potential pain in the ass that its (maybe) broken, its not exactly terminal.

Here's a bet: (3, Insightful)

Capt'n Hector (650760) | more than 9 years ago | (#12460948)

Whatever the issue is, my guess is Apple will have it fixed within the month. It's possible they will have a patch out by the end of next week. It's just a bug, and last time I heard, unless active measures need to be taken by network admins NOW to shore up potential security issues, bugs aren't news. Major new OS versions will always have wrinkles to iron out, stop the presses!

Re:Here's a bet: (2, Insightful)

xiando (770382) | more than 9 years ago | (#12460965)

Really? "Major new OS versions will always have wrinkles to iron out, stop the presses!"? The reason for doing beta testing would be what? Is it too much to ask that vendors use beta versions of their own software in-house for a month before they release it? Is it too much to ask that they ship the software to a small number of beta testers before the final release in order to find those wrinkles and iron them out? If I were to pay for commercial software, would I be paying THEM for doing the work of beta-testing for them? If you bought a car, would you really accept that it broke down after a few hours, even if the store told you that "it is a new car, you can expect some wrinkles to be ironed out, we will take it into service and give you it back in working condition in a few weeks?"

Re:Here's a bet: (2, Interesting)

gullevek (174152) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461002)

I agree with you. Its super annoying that an "Gold" has these kind of errors. If it is with a super rare hardware or a super special software, okay.

but THIS? Has nobody there ever tried to connect to a SMB sever? It's kinda strange. Annoying. Every OS has this, everyone.

But I can imagine how this is, I can imagine this very good. The coders will say, we need to the test, the managers say, we need to release, and of course the managers are right, they get their bonus, because the release in time, and the coders then get the blaim for the code errors.

Perhaps IT needs a revolution.

Re:Here's a bet: (2, Funny)

Daengbo (523424) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461242)

Yeah, I'm wondering where "As Seen on TV" is and why he hasn't posted 20 times for this story. Can the Apple troll defend "his" company for this one?

Re:Here's a bet: (2, Insightful)

BasilBrush (643681) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461315)

Yeah, where can he possibly be between 4:29am and 6:29am? Clearly it's a cover up!

Re:Here's a bet: (5, Insightful)

Graymalkin (13732) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461074)

So, say it worked great in all beta builds until the gold master. It had been tested and came up green so in latter beta builds it wasn't tested anymore because it worked. Then say sometime between the last beta build and the GM (which are a few builds apart) a butterfly flapped its wings bug caused SMB mounting to break in Finder. Errors happen because systems are complex and there's dependancies that depend on more dependancies, a error in the chain can cause really weird errors in seemingly unrelated parts of the system.

Your car analogy is flawed. New cars do have bugs when they roll off the lot. You would be really surprised at the number of real issues every car or every batch of cars has off the factory floor. Many times however these flaws and bugs don't crop up and cause a noticeable problem for a long time if ever. There are some problems that do crop up quickly however. It would be one thing if the manufacturer ignored this and went on its merry way. It is entirely another if they repair your car for you. I just had the dome light fixed in my car because of a faulty latch, should I be screaming about the manufacturer not having any QA? No.

The car analogy also falls flat when compared to something as easily changed as computer software. A patch containing the repair can be very small and be distributed to millions of affected users very quickly. If your car is in the shop for a week you're out one car. If SMB shares don't show up in Finder's Browse window properly you're not out SMB shares as you can work around the problem if need be.

Re:Here's a bet: (1)

peragrin (659227) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461312)

Exactly. i bought a 2002 Jeep liberty brand new.

I took a known risk, new car model, in the first run of production.

I have had to general recalls. First one was a wire harness hasn't really there and the controls lines for airbag deployment could get severed preventing the airbag from going off.

The second was a poor boot cover design for the tie rods.

I owned the car for two years and they replaced the tie-rods and put in new covers.

Minor problems should be expected. If you buy say a Ford Taurus you won't have many of them as they have been worked out for the most part.

Re:Here's a bet: (1)

Trillan (597339) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461324)

A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.

Sorry, couldn't resist. :)

A typical slashdot response. (2, Insightful)

King_of_Prussia (741355) | more than 9 years ago | (#12460998)

If this were a windows article there would have been an almost unanimous uproar about microsoft's ability to release a stable piece of software without major bugs. Look at the nature of the bug too -- how long until somebody blames this on windows being too "monopolistic" and deliberately making it hard for tiger to share or authenticate?

I've said it before, and I guess I'll have to say it once again -- zealotry should have no place on slashdot. If Microsoft turned around and released a perfect, bug free operating system that interfaced perfectly with all the competitions' offerings, there would be a 1000 comment shitstorm of complaint as the flock of rabid posters decried them for not releasing the source, or for charging for the software. Compare that to this, where a major operating system has been released with a large and quite frankly obvious bug present, and along come the apple fanboys. GET OVER IT. Base your opinion on the product, not the company, or the shiny form factor, or the how overpriced it is.

Don't get me wrong, as I sit here I am listening to a 40 gig iPOS, and I use a powerbook when I need mobility, so I don't have any bias against apple themselves, just their little army of braindead followers who would buy and defend a box of Steve Jobs' shit if it had a pretty shape and the apple logo.

Hah, and it seems after previewing the parent comment is already rated insightful. Funny how that works, isn't it?


Re:A typical slashdot response. (2, Interesting)

FidelCatsro (861135) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461039)

um .. what has not being able to properly connect to a SAMBA share got to do with stability.Tiger is very very stable i have not had one OS crash (a few programs have but they were built for 10.3 and the updated version run fine)
The fault here is in interoperability with a Microsoft SMB share (no such problem with NFS) and there is an easy work around (you just point to the share directly).

Had this been about microsoft products not connecting to a SAMBA share properly .Then quite rightly, there would have been a hell of an uproar.

? troll (0, Redundant)

FidelCatsro (861135) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461087)

how the funk is that a troll ,damm mods grow up .
He was only responding to the parent with a question and awnser.
Since when is the truth a troll , and it dosn't sound insulting to me .
Im sorry are MS marketing being paid to moderate or something.

Re:? troll (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12461092)

it was ment to read "Hell , I" not he .
to clear up confusion of why i am talking about myself in the third person hee
fcat.

Re:? troll (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12461139)

notice how (as the grandparent post predicted) mr. castro here is blaming microsoft for what is ultimately apples problem?

i particularly enjoy the "mistake" in the post (was the real one forgetting to hit "post anonymously"?).

i get a real laugh every time some apple fanboy witha blatntly unamerican name comes and tries to discredit a strong, proud american company such as microsofot. if i was running the show, people like him would be shot for treason.

Re:? troll (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12461169)

Yeah discredit an all american company like MS , instead of what an All american company like Apple .

Oh and if you hadn't noticed that name is Catsro , its a joke not an anti-american slur. as in feline Cat ,sro as in swaping the letters.

No no i always sign as myself even if i am posting anonymously like now .
You can have a look through my post history if you want :P , that will back up they typ-os and the signing anon responses

No i am not an Apple fanboy , im an OSS and unix fanboy(though i loath the term fanboy) who just happens to be using apple computers some of the time . yes i hold it as no secret that i like the direction apple has taken over the last few years and am very happy using their software.

The MS marketing remark is a comment related to a few journal entrys recently .It was a joke more than anything .

I didn't bash MS in my post i mearly stated it was not a stability issue , it is an issue related to interoperability.Had it been a problem with Apple-share then i would have been rather peeved with apple .

Your a Troll me ,I am fully aware of that . Its a nice excuse to clarify a few points though.

Fcat..

Re:? troll (1)

Mr_Escher (209858) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461143)

It was troll because you largely missed the point of the parent.

Your post implied the parent said Tiger was unstable however I can't find such a point in there, just that there is a "a large and quite frankly obvious bug present". Which there is.

This flaw has little to do with Microsoft, it cannot connect to my Debian linux server in the office either.

Your post bitches and moans about the observation that there is a lot of pro-Apple bias on Slashdot and draws an irrelevant comparison to Windows SMB integration.

You are the very zealot the parent eluded to.

Oh, you also have no idea what a question mark is.

Re:? troll (1)

curbion (872077) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461207)

Let us analyse his post shall we.
um .. what has not being able to properly connect to a SAMBA share got to do with stability
Correct the first post does imply this is a stability issue
Tiger is very very stable i have not had one OS crash (a few programs have but they were built for 10.3 and the updated version run fine)
This is could be true , I do not know .Though it reads fine to me .
The fault here is in interoperability with a Microsoft SMB share (no such problem with NFS) and there is an easy work around (you just point to the share directly).
Awnsering the question of the issue , I see no problem.
Had this been about microsoft products not connecting to a SAMBA share properly .Then quite rightly, there would have been a hell of an uproar.
Too right , if MS had a problem with its own server software it would have been an issue . However since this is apple it is a diffrent issue. Apple fans get called zelouts all the time.Is it any wonder they get a bit annoyed when it hapens for no good reason. PS: I am not an apple user ,I use Win2k. I get rather annoyed at all the MS bashing but i see just as much Apple bashing by MS fanboys . Fair enough his final response was a bit angry , Understandable though . This hapens all the time on Apple Threads and it also happens on MS threads for the same reasons. The last response Mod that over-rated , i don't think he was trying to troll . He just lost his temper . It happens ! Now lets all just chill out (In certain languages the ? comes at the start of a sentence)

Re:? troll (1)

Daengbo (523424) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461263)

Note to readers. First, FidelCatsro attempts to defend himself either anonymously or with a different account in the third person, but then fails, and then posts again as this user to further try to defend his post (you will know that this is FidelCatsro because the misspelling of zealot is identical to this post [slashdot.org] ). I would mod the whole set down, but I've already posted once.

This troll needs some art added to his artis.

Re:? troll (1)

FidelCatsro (861135) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461285)

no , Curby is a freind of mine from another site .No way i could prove that to you , But since i already admited i screwed-up and posted an apoligy its all water under the bridge . I will say sorry to you aswell as obviously i have made a negative impresion on you in a moment of weakness.

Re:? troll (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12461297)

You both use the same spacing around punctiation. I've only seen this on your posts, at least in /.

You are not only obviously lying but even worse you are an (eponymoys) coward.

Welcome to my foes' list.

Re:? troll (1)

curbion (872077) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461307)

I am not Fidel ,I am however a friend . The typo of zealot is easy to explain, it's the last time i copy his spelling ,I should know better by now .

Re:? troll (1)

FidelCatsro (861135) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461221)

Better apoligise i got a bit irate there , It happens and a big man can admit he was wrong .Yes i was in the wrong.
Though i was honestly not trying to troll in the grandparent , i do apoligise if it seems that way.
As an apple user (partly ,mostly i use Debian) I get sick fed up of people bringing out the "zelouts" card and it frankly turns me into a bit of a zelout , well i get defensive .
Its natural to defend something you spend a great deal of time on .
So perhaps im not a zelout , perhaps i was just annoyed at constantly hearing the line that all apple users are zelouts.

On the issue , yes apple has a problem here. It will be fixed soon hopefully for now there are work-arounds.

(btw yes it was a typ-o not a click-o i was posting as myself . :P this will teach me to proff read i guess)

(/Big-man-says-sorry mode)

Re:? troll (1)

curbion (872077) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461241)

Hell you will probably get alot of crap for the first one .Not from me though .Nice to see someone on here admiting mistakes , though I do agree you had some right to be annoyed. Being an MS user and supporter is no easier here on slashdot. Sometimes people forget that the blade stabs both ways. If I were hearing constantly that just because I use windows (and enjoy using it.Oh and I do hear it) that i was a zelout i would be a bit angry . Kudos for the apology :)

Re:A typical slashdot response. (1)

popeyethesailor (325796) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461182)

If Microsoft turned around and released a perfect, bug free operating system that interfaced perfectly with all the competitions' offerings, there would be a 1000 comment shitstorm of complaint as the flock of rabid posters decried them for not releasing the source, or for charging for the software.

But the problem has been that Windows has never had a perfect release whereas Apple has had a wonderful track-record in most of their releases. [insert long tirade about security here[ [insert monopolistic practices rant] [insert disdain for windows 98] [insert smug sense of superiority]

SAVE IT.

Re:A typical slashdot response. (3, Insightful)

elecngnr (843285) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461273)

I will just say at the beginning of this post that I am a fan of Apple products. I try not to jump in on every Apple story on this site because I think there is enough preaching to the choir on this site. Having said that, I will continue on this thread. I have used Windows machines for many years in addition to using Apple. The reason why there is no huge uproar, in my opinion, is because I know it wll be fixed soon. I also know that the fix will make the product better (i.e. it will NOT be SP2). It is not so much that we are brain dead followers....I would not just drink some kool aid if Steve asks me to....I think many of us have just had good experiences with their products. I upgraded to Tiger on Monday of this week. I expected some hiccups and there have been a few. However, they are not major hiccups and I do not expect to be dealing with them for long.

Re:A typical slashdot response. (1)

rokzy (687636) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461337)

exactly correct. I've noticed a few little things with Tiger, but have complete confidence that it'll be fixed. I also submit a few bug reports because I believe they will actually make a difference.

conversely, does anyone really think MS could give a shit about the end-users' experience? does anyone bother with the "send report" feature? when has anyone at MS made something better just for the hell of it? for example why, after probably almost a decade, is it still necessary to run disk cleanup for every partition separately. is it really too much work to add an "all drives" option, or am I the only person in the world that thinks this is and appalling UI?

people get pissed off when MS does something wrong because if MS doesn't get it working first time then it usually stays that way or goes downhill.

Re:Here's a bet: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12461055)

Major new OS versions will always have wrinkles to iron out

But Tiger is only a point release ;)

Re:Here's a bet: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12461294)

Whatever the issue is, my guess is Apple will have it fixed within the month.

Impressive faith. Given that they have used 3-5 months fixing some of the security vulnaribilities (se posts linking to Secunia in the "mega patch" story). If you look at any Mac user forum these days you see _a lot_ of different problems with Tiger.

Re:Here's a bet: (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12461326)

I would bet a nickel the problem is with either Active Directory or the implementation thereof. Sure Tiger might have some quirks, but AD just sucks.

Active Directory (1, Troll)

October_30th (531777) | more than 9 years ago | (#12460962)

Interesting. I didn't know you could authenticate non-Windows computers with Microsoft Active Directory servers. It's rather surprising that Microsoft supports such interoperability.

Samba supports it (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12460978)

MS doesn't.

Nice try though.

Re:Samba supports it (2, Interesting)

October_30th (531777) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461014)

"Try"? By support I meant, of course, that MS is not suing the pants of the Samba team and is not obfuscating the protocol beyond all hope for reverse engineering (which they probably could do).

I find this interesting, because at the university where I work, the security policy requires centralized AD authentication from all computers in the network. After that I've hardly seen any Linux PCs or Macs around anymore. When I asked about it from one of our IT guys, he said that you can't authenticate non-Windows computers with MS Active Directory.

Re:Samba supports it (3, Informative)

spauldo (118058) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461060)

The admin's wrong. Samba can do it now, although in all fairness it took a while after active directory was released for it to be able to work with it well. He's probably just basing that on old information.

As far as the protocol, SMB is (IIRC, I could be wrong) an IBM-designed protocol. It's been around for ages - hell, NT domains were just hopped up lan manager networks. The authentication in active directory uses a slightly modified form of kerberos - also an open protocol. They have tried to put a few legal barriers in the way, but those have been mostly ineffective.

Now, there is another possibility - it might be against policy at your university for non-windows machines to authenticate. If it's set up so that all machines have to be added to the tree by an admin, it's certainly enforcable, and thus your admin would be right in that particular case. He's just not right in the general case.

Re:Samba supports it (1)

October_30th (531777) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461334)

might be against policy at your university for non-windows machines to authenticate.

I believe it's fundamentally something like that. I had to jump through hoops and sign waivers to get a special permission for my work Mac (it still doesn't authenticate with AD).

Re:Samba supports it (3, Informative)

CowbertPrime (206514) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461100)

hi. AD is just LDAP with some extra cruft/bloat/stuff added; which is mostly documented anyway. Your IT department is clueless. You can also fall back to kerberos (which despite the FUD, interoperates with the majority of MIT Kerberos V implementations), if you did not have a functional (Open)LDAP infrastructure.

Re:Active Directory (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12461023)

In other words, Microsoft released some sort of "update" recently which caused the current problems. S.O.P.

Some predictions (0, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12460970)

1. Several posters will call this FUD (after all, there are no problems with anything from Apple ever) and some of them will get modded up.

2. Several posters will claim that it works for them (which is of course fine, but doesn't mean that others don't have the problem)

3. Combine 2 with 1 and you are sure to be modded up.

4. Several posters will take this as proof that OSX sucks, is unusable, whatever. (Yeah, because no other software appart from OSX might have slight problems after its initial release) Will promptly be modded troll (and rightly so in this case)

Re:Some predictions (1)

Daengbo (523424) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461270)

5. As Seen on TV will chime in with ten highly-rated comments about "his" company.

So, what! (1)

lostngone (855272) | more than 9 years ago | (#12460980)

Yes, Tiger has a few bugs its less then a month old! As posted earlier a patch is do out soon.. At least apple is trying, I don't Microsoft working on making Windows support AFP.

Re:So, what! (-1, Offtopic)

MemoryDragon (544441) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461071)

Dont tell me, the PNG transparency bug in IE was reported 8 years ago, and finally it is getting fixed. Dunno if the CSS float command bug which basically makes CSS layouting impossible without hacking in a workaround, ever will be fixed.

Work-around (5, Informative)

Noksagt (69097) | more than 9 years ago | (#12460984)

Easy workaround:
Command-K to bring up the connect menu and type in the full address INCLUDING THE SHARE NAME:

smb://SERVER/folder

Re:Work-around (4, Informative)

Noksagt (69097) | more than 9 years ago | (#12460994)

Also note that you can also do it on the CLI. Open up term and do a:
$ mount_smbfs -W workgroup //user@SERVER/folder ./mntpoint

Re:Work-around (2, Informative)

teh kurisu (701097) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461245)

Doing it from the terminal using mount_smbfs seems to create an unmountable reference to the share in the Finder. Of course, it could be my own damn fault... but the Command-K method seems more reliable to me.

Re:Work-around (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12461050)

Before Tiger this worked fine without Share Name.
Now it's hard to find which share are awailable on the server quick way on GUI :(

Re:Work-around (1)

Dougie (27825) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461096)

Not that this is terribly helpful.

But running smbclient -U -L will almost always get you a list.

However, at times you will also have to include the workgroup/domain for that user, I think it's -W.

Re:Work-around (1)

Dougie (27825) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461088)

I know I'm probably going to be flamed for this, or marked down as flame bait...

One of the apparently huge selling points of apple over the underlying operating system, BSD (or Linux), is that any idiot can use it.

Well, I'm sorry but the majority of Mac Users on my site, could at no point in time do what your asking of them.

It's not simple, and it's not acceptable as far as I'm concerned, admitedly that's just due to my user base, and network configuration, but it's rubbish.

I know you hear people come out with "Why are people so quick to blame", well my counter question is "Why are people so quick to make excuses".

In the last 6 months, the number of excuses and the perenial "wait untill the next version". SHEESH

Please, just give me some thing that actually works now (and yes, lots of it works, but bloody loads does not).

Re:Work-around (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12461209)

Easy workaround

It's funny how just a couple of days ago a whole army of Apple fans hurried up to boast about how the Mac OS doesn't need any workarounds and it "just works".

Re:Work-around (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12461214)

You're saying I need a WORKAROUND on a MAC? But... but... Macs are supposed to 'just work'!!!!

Re:Work-around (1)

wimvds (615170) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461309)

If this is true, then this issue/bug is definately not restricted to Tiger. I'm having the same problem in Panther since one of the upgrades (I don't recall which one :p), and I know quite a few people on Mac forums I frequently visit that are having the same problem.

Use an FTP shares (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12460996)

Thats what I do, sure its not a secure login but its a private network so it doesn't matter.

I've had problems with my PDA logging into XP, Windows 98 logging in to 2000. So when I couldn't mount shares on my Mac using the Windows sharing, I just assumed it was MS playing tricks and switched to an FTP share which works flawlessly.

Opposite Experience (4, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12461001)

Weird, I've found with Tiger that Windows file sharing has been easier, although I don't use Active Directory. With Panther my password was never remembered by Keychain, despite clicking the option to enable it. With Tiger my password is remembered. It also finds my Windows shares automatically, whereas with Panther I had to manually connect by entering IP addresses.

Anecdotal... (3, Informative)

Shag (3737) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461003)

One friend indicated that things refused to work in plaintext-password mode, but once he turned on encrypted passwords, they worked fine.

I'm not sure whether he had to turn on the encrypted passwords at the Mac end or the PC end, but I seem to recall thinking "gosh, imagine that, doing something the secure way."

Re:Anecdotal... (2, Informative)

mattyrobinson69 (751521) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461120)

newer versions of windows require attacking the registry to enable plain text passwords.

cthis FP for GNAA (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12461010)

Nothing to see here anymore, please, move along .. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12461011)

As you can clearly see, the only thing faster on defence than Steve Job's lawyers are Apple's fan boys.

Oh, and forget about a real discussion of the Mac's pros and cons, far too many minds are already signed, sealed and delivered.

Re:Nothing to see here anymore, please, move along (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12461149)

Faggot AC troll bitch. Shut up.

Here's the most unbiased, thorough site I've found that compares XP and OS X feature-for-feature [xvsxp.com] and OS X mops the fucking floor with your little bitch-ass Fisher-Price XP operating system. Read it and weep--well, read it assuming you're a) not illiterate and b) can see it around Bill Gates' pelvis that is perpetually in front of your face.

Not sure if it's this... (5, Informative)

mferrare (65039) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461012)

I had a problem with 10.3 authenticating to a W2k3 AD server and mounting shares. Turned out I had to modify the Domain Controller Security Policy on the server and set Microsoft Network Server: Digitally Sign Communications (always) to Disabled. I am now running 10.4 and I have no problems connecting to this w2k3 server.


I got this solution from here [allinthehead.com] by the way. Thanks to Drew McLelland.

I fixed my problems (4, Informative)

mr_zorg_mobile (685163) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461022)

I had this problem too after upgrading. I found that deleting my SMB keychain entries solved it allowed me to login again (after getting my admin to unlock my account from all those failed attempts).

One thing I noticed (0, Troll)

DrXym (126579) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461057)

For all Apple's alleged attempts at ease of use, you still have to type the "smb://" at the front of the address in the Connect to Server or it assumes you meant afp. It's almost as if supporting SMB is some dirty secret they don't want anyone to know about. A button offering the choice wouldn't go amiss.

And in general, the Network area in Finder is very flakey, either not finding my server (unless I type it), or seeing it but hanging the whole Finder while it tries to connect and fails. I also appear to have a mysterious "rfc1918.space.should.not.be.used.on.publicips" entry in there, whatever that is.

Slashdot needs to enter the 21st century (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12461069)

Why is there no CSS on this awful page?

Connecting for SMB works better for me (1)

prodangle (552537) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461133)

That's strange, in my case connecting to SMB servers has improved. In Panther connections always failed 1st time, and after reentering my login & password it always connected 2nd time. This issue seems to be fixed now in Tiger, as I can always connect 1sttime.

I do have some sympathy for apple regarding this. Anyone who uses Windows shares frequently will know that even different versions of Windows can have difficulty operating together.

Re:Connecting for SMB works better for me (1)

KiloByte (825081) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461150)

Anyone who uses Windows shares frequently will know that even different versions of Windows can have difficulty operating together.

"different versions"? Hey, to get "difficulties" you need to stay at least within the same major version. Otherwise, you'll need to resort to tricks like copying files via a Samba box.

Finder and Linux Sambda shares (5, Interesting)

reddish (646830) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461152)

On a related note: I'm seeing really bad performance when copying a file from a Linux Samba share to my OSX machine (roughly 100 kb/sec, if that). Oddly enough, file uploads are ok (megabytes per second). Odder still, if I open a terminal and copy directly to my machine from the Samba share mount point, incoming copies are fast too. This has been going on from at least 10.2, and much to my dismay it is still an issue in 10.4. This really seems like the Finder is trying to talk Sambalese by itself (and does so differently than the SMB filesystem driver). Has anyone else noticed this behavior (and, perhaps, solved it)?

Re:Finder and Linux Samba shares (1)

Alioth (221270) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461196)

It's another FTFF (Fix The Fscking Finder) issue I think. Finder behaves the same way with NFS - really poor transfer rates under Finder, but normal speed using 'cp' on the command line.

Re:Finder and Linux Sambda shares (1)

sammy baby (14909) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461206)

red, I had a very similar problem under 10.3, except that I was often completely prohibited from writing to the directory through the Finder. Nobody on any forum was able to help me with this problem, although now I wonder if it's related to the resource fork issue mentioned elswhere in this discussion.

Re:Finder and Linux Sambda shares (2, Interesting)

Arkan (24212) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461212)

I had this problem too. I commented out the sockets options, and the performance problem disappeared. I did't took the time to fiddle around to determine what was the exact option that was causing the grief, but HTH.

Cheers,

--
Arkan

Big deal. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12461168)

Was about 5 minutes to figure the out what was going on.

Runs fine with samba after some config changes ( for the better ).

And who runs windows as fileserver anymore ?

Oh, you mean, another problem? (1)

sammy baby (14909) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461197)

I just installed Tiger this week and have not yet had the opportunity to test again, but in my Panther (10.3) install I had intermittent problems trying to connect to my Debian/testing Samba shares in my office. Or rather, I could connect to them with no problem, but copying files to it via the Finder was a no-go.

And, to be specific, this was definitely a Finder issue: I could use "cp ~/Documents/somefile.txt /Volumes/sambashare/" with no problem. But it made it very frustrating for me, and to the few other Mac users in my building, whom I was in charge of supporting.

(My eventual "solution" was to install netatalk to do an end-run around the problem. I still don't like that answer.)

I don't use samba anymore (4, Interesting)

Sarin (112173) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461198)

I used to work with samba, having a linux fileserver and a mac osx powerbook, but recently I started working with nfs. It seems a bit faster and more stable. When I change some file on the server, it's directly visible in finder - without having to refresh it.

I also was annoyed the fact when I turned my powerbook on after it went to sleep it would give me a lot of errors about unmounting a network drive. This also was the case with tiger. With nfs, those problems are gone an nfs mount will stay active after the powerbook comes back from sleep.

That's Apple for ya. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12461200)

It Just Works. Also, BMW.

Does ANYBODY proofread anymore? (1)

SynapseLapse (644398) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461218)

"Some installations are also finding that Windows workstations can't to log on to the Mac after upgrading to Mac OS X 10.4." ergh....

History of SMB problems with OS X (4, Informative)

tyagiUK (625047) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461249)

I first started using OS X in the early days of 10.2 (yes, a relative latecomer). This was when my wife bought an iBook (after some *ahem* guidance... read encouragement) for studies she was undertaking. When she wasn't working on it, I got to play and set to work integrating it with our home network.

The pain I had getting SMB to perform acceptably under 10.2 nearly put me off OS X. Basically, the way that 10.2 handled mounting network filesystems really sucked. It was unreliable and often left the system hanging with a spinning beachball (the Mac equivalent of an egg timer). Often, powering off was the only solution.

This was fortunately fixed later on in the 10.2 lifecycle with some networking updates. Things got much better from then on.

When I got my own iBook several months later, it arrived with 10.3. This release seemed to have a reasonably good SMB implementation, but the performance was truly sucky. File transfer speeds between the iBooks and my Linux-based Samba server were low, but at least mounting was reliable.

As 10.3 progressed, this problem went away and performance/reliability are currently both very good. It means I can use SMB between my Linux server and both iBook and Windows XP clients. All works just fine.

I am, however, considering a move to WebDAV for file sharing on the network. WebDAV is a nicely lightweight protocol and has the benefit of being an open standard. Most good implementations are open source too. There are also client libraries for most decent scripting/programming languages. The added benefit is that you can integrate the WebDAV server in to OS X to perform iSync backups of your system and do calendar sharing etc. All nice, geeky, stuff.

The only major problem I can see at the moment is that the way the WebDAV server interacts with the underlying filesystem is a bit complex, given that my server runs under Apache. The model it appears to assume is that the server will have a dedicated directory or area for WebDAV files, and not simply share out a user's home directory or a backup drive.

I do need to go and RTFM, however.

samba (1)

mdew (651926) | more than 9 years ago | (#12461255)

doesnt OSX use samba for SMB?
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