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Microsoft starts anti-Linux Group

Hemos posted more than 15 years ago | from the counter-insurgency dept.

Microsoft 553

It started in the Wall Street Journal, but the story has spread all over. Microsoft has started group, much like in the case of Java to get into the minds of the Linux community. At least we now they see us as a serious, despite claims to the contrary.

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Serious? No way. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1884675)

How can Linux be serious? Slashdot was unreachable for the past few hours. I think they're just there to disperse some of the FUD that Linux supporters are spewing.

Grammer DOES matter! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1884676)

"At least we now they see us as a serious, "

What the hell does THAT mean?

It's hard to be taken as a "serious" when one of the leading advocacy pages for Linux posts gibberish like that on the front page.

ouch (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1884677)

quit a few english errors in that article the now one greated my nerve a bit

Re:Just like Micro$oft... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1884678)

Exactly. Instead of improving their products, they just try to grab market share by spreading fear of the competitors. Netware, Java, now Linux. I hope the DOJ smashes them into a million pieces.

Look Above : A Micro$oft FUD Agent. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1884679)

Did you get paid to make that post?

Re:Grammer DOES matter! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1884680)

Kudos!

I am anything but an English major, but whoever wrote this is either a foreigner or a complete moron! Can't someone go back and fix these kids of things? i Thank wE ned too loke lik entelegent peple too bee cunsidrd entelegent peple!

Not necessary (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1884681)

Linux is Phantom Menace of the operating systems:
  • More hype than it deserves
  • Nothing new from what existed 20 years ago (well, actually Unix is older than that...)
  • Lots of special effects, but no real content (show me something that Linux can do that other OS's can't)
  • Can't hold up on it's own (you still need to dual boot to nt or 95 to run your real software, or get any work done, or play any good games.)
  • We have to wait 3-6 years for it to be worth anything (who wants suffer waiting for linux to mature, I'll install it once it can do the things i need it to do and runs the programs i need to run).
(BTW, I'm a big fan of Star Wars and I enjoyed the first movie. But it has it's shortcomings. And in my opinion - so does Linux. But news web sites like to jump on anything that's anti-Microsoft or puts Microsoft under a bad light, so then I guess, yeah Linux, boo or Microsoft, whatever....)

Re:ouch again (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1884682)

That's grammar not grammer.

s/Ghandi/Gandhi/ (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1884683)

I'm not usually this nit-picky, but please, people, spell the man's name correctly!

Re:Not necessary (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1884684)

I take issue with point #4. My "real software" happens to run under UNIX. I know plenty of people who have worked solely on UNIX workstations for years, using only free or custom software or commercial applications which have already been ported to Linux or supplanted. And Tetris is the most advanced game I can play, so I don't need Windows like that.

I have a feeling there are plenty of people like that. Similarly, there are probably a lot of people who can only deal with the simple-minded story without any good character development as presented by TPM. So Linux has something equivalent to the Queen, too, right ;)? And what's Jar-Jar-- I want to kill it RIGHT NOW!

What a joke. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1884685)

Ha!, get this:

"Getting inside the head of our competitors is one of our best practices," said Linux-group head Jim Ewel, who is also a marketing director at Microsoft, the Wall Street Journal reported.

Careful there, Jim. If a marketdroid like yourself tries to get "inside the head" of Linux folks, your own head might explode.

Microslut better be careful with tactics like this. They might make us angry. Then we'd have to hurt them.

About time ... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1884686)

Hey folks !

I would say it is about time that Microsoft reacted to the Anti-MS propaganda. Now we know it for sure that both OS's are gone to the dogs !

Enjoy the summer !

Re:Remember - there's an antitrust suit still ongo (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1884687)

Yes, but I think it needs clarifying that this buzz isn't artificial hype generated to make it look like Linux is competetion. This IS Linux being competition, and the market being unafraid to go against the wishes of Microsoft. With the trial going on, Microsoft can't afford to pummel any of these OEMs without getting split up into a million pieces.

Not that they won't get split up anyways--

Re:Then they fight you... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1884688)

"First they ignore you (because you're working on irrelevant obsolete crap nobody cares about)
Then they laugh at you (because you're stupid enough to believe your "Leader" when he clowns around about "World Domination")
Then they swat you aside (because you're swindling a lot of gullible people with your hype)
Then you lose" (because people figure out theres no vision, just a lot of obsolete crap repackaged in a new wrapper)

Ghandi & metaphors (was Re:M$ and Ghandi) (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1884689)

Was it with irony aforethought that began with
Ghandi, and concluded with the words 'lock and load'. Just wondering.

truth is self evident... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1884690)

people this is Good.
dont waste your time typing out more of our own
special brand of anti-Micro~1 crud anymore. Invest this energy in showing your friends how your Linux box is superior, friendlier, more interoperable, and just more reliable than anything gurgling up from the hellspawn over at the church of Redmond. True, you may need to explain to your friends, family, and any onlookers how you can get your system to look or perform so well, but this is a small price to pay for the luxury of having a competitive market. If we don't get more people off of their a**es and
help them learn Linux (remember how lazy most people are..that's why M$ has done so well) we may
as well stand by and watch our precious open standards get twisted into proprietary, bloated, poorly written knockoffs. Don't follow M$'s lead here, and lose sight of the forest (good product)
for all the trees (spreading FUD). Let em stay so busy trying to change people's minds instead of their operating systems and we'll eventually find a niche in all of their markets, rather than being just Flavor-of-the-month (as Linux is becoming in some people's minds).
So I guess I am saying that we've got to get people to stop reading so many reviews and websites, and get them to start logging in, editing files, and just let em see for themselves what *nix is capable of

Re:Just like Micro$oft... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1884691)

flesh99 said, among other things:

>Why do you people have such a problem with
>allowing a company to be run in a free manner


Microsoft is the group who refuses to let other companies run their business in a free and competitive manner. Perhaps you would rather have a return to the feudal days and the just rule of the land barons?

-Perpetual Newbie

Re:If this is true (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1884692)

However, OS/2 was a proprietary product controlled by a single company. Once bits hit the fan, IBM pulled the plug. I don't see this happening with the Linux kernel.

--ac

Re:good, go away - Bzzzzzzzzt. Wrong. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1884693)

The poster has enumerated several valid concerns, and your response is, "go away"? Your contempt is appaling.

Bzzzzzzzzt. Wrong. The poster is telling us what we need to do to be stronger. All too often we focus on the techie stuff and completely ignore end-user concerns. At the end of the day, if our wares are not acceptable to the end user, then they are worthless.

Complaints and criticisms really are pearls to be treasured: they are the "customer" (however you choose to define it) telling you what you have to do to serve them better.

What is the quickest way to stop Linux infiltration? I say dismissive arrogance will do it faster than anything else, including Microsoft's new hit squad.

Scooter McCrew

Re:and the MS anti-Java group was oh-so-successful (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1884694)

Well, I don't know whether MS's anti-java efforts were sucessful or not, since Sun had fucked Java up all by themselves.

Java: Write Once, Debug Everywhere. Every time a vendor revs their JVM. No kidding.

Java: I've seen it. It's wretched.

Re:I'm switching to NT. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1884695)

Same here. Management decided to move everyone to NT. Nevertheless I opposed and now all important things, like databases, user-homes, even our PDC, run on UNIX/Linux.
Some of our UNIX machines have uptimes of more than a year without rebooting - our NTs DO crash at least once a day.

Now, about GNOME and KDE, I fully agree, both ARE crap. But WHO tells you NOT to use AfterSTEP, wm2 or fvwm* ?

About your problems with glibc and Netscape, yes some distributions are unstable since they started using the new glibc. As it looks, they all where eager to rather ship a new distribution with a new lib, than quality-testing it FIRST. (Reminds me of MSDN).

But you cannot blame Linux for Netscape crashes. Netscape crashes on every UNIX I've seen it running on. Looks to me, as if Netscape focus is more on Windows market than on UNIX since they don't have a "real" competition there. Well, ok, there IS MSIE for Slowlaris and HP/UX (bless you) but WHO knows about the REAL browsers, i.e. Amaya, Arena and Mosaic?

If this is true (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1884850)

Are we seriously suppose to believe that just now Microsoft has started to persuade people to use MS products and not consider Linux?

Just like Micro$oft... (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1884851)

It's just like Micro$oft to try to stop a competitor instead of rising to the challenge and improving their own products.

I think I'll start a group to convince people not to use microshaft... oh wait... I already do that...

--
PacDemon
(I hope to hear back from Rob with my account status soon...)

Ghandi and Pinochet (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1884852)

I remember a Wall Street Journal article
a few years ago, on MS tactics on teams
like this. They would find out the name
of the children of key employees at the
company under attack, and send the children
of the employees birthday cards signed by
the head of the MS attack team.

So basically, we use the tactics of Ghandi,
and they use the tactics of Pinochet.

Hell, I said this was happening last September. (1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1884853)

It's not a mere group of ten, either. The Portland PR firm of Wagner Edstrom has scores of employees working on this too, and they've been busy since last fall. How's that expression about waking up and smelling the coffee go again?

Re:I'm switching to NT. (2)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1884869)

It is fair to say that Microsoft has the lead when it comes to the desktop. The support is there from so many other developers because they know that Windows isn't going away anytime soon. Also, you cannot overlook the installation processes of Linux and Windows.

However, Linux is making substantial progress in this field. Standards must be set so developers can code for a single platform instead of making their applications KDE or GNOME or whatever compliant only.

The installation factor is another thing that turns off newcomers. The configuration of a GUI at during installation must be made easier. Hopefully, the support from Dell will help. If a user sees the option of putting Linux on their new computer, they may choose that along with dual booting Windows. Who wants to spend an hour setting up a new OS besides the power user? My mother, father, and brother doesn't. All they want is a usuable machine so they can surf the web and type papers on. If Dell can ship a 550MHz PIII with Linux on it, configured with the latest GUI, a couple apps preloaded with the ability to run straight out of the box (just plug it in and go, Mac style), we're in good shape.

Anonymous Bastard

Then they fight you... (3)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1884875)


"First they ignore you,
then they laugh at you,
then they fight you,
then you win." (Ghandi).

type faster - write more code!
world domination is coming! :-)

Microsoft (3)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1884876)

I was at the sans security confrence in baltimore last week. Everyone laughed at NT, even the people giving the talks. Microsoft was trashed in every course I attended. I have also heard from other confrence goers that if its mission critical dont use microsoft. This person happened to be at an NT confrence. Ask mudge about the security of microsoft products I bet he has alot to say. During one of our lectures the powerpoint presentation blue screened the windows box. In another session the guy had to rebuild his NT box that day because it crashed and hosed the registry. Microsoft lovers need to get a clue.

Counter benchmark with benchmark (3)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1884877)

We need to do what a company would do in a situation like this: counter benchmark with benchmark -- come up with benchmarks that best show Linux's strengths.
We should recognize Linux's weaknesses privately, but play up Linux's strengths publicly.
We shouldn't be too reasonable or fair about this: MS isn't, and being too reasonable will just play into MS's hands and get ourselves steamrolled by MS's massive PR machine.



I'm switching to NT. (4)

Anonymous Coward | more than 15 years ago | (#1884879)

I've been using linux as my only operating system ever since I got a computer in December 1994 and I've been pretty happy with it.

At work, they got rid of our Solaris and Linux systems and installed NT everywhere. I was so offended by this PHB decision and opposed it strongly, occasionally rudely. I hated NT at first, but now that I'm getting used to it I think it's ok. It's never crashed and now that I have all the FSF tools installed--- things like TeX, LaTeX, dvi-viewers, Ghostscript, PS viewers, gunzip, tar, perl, a great editor, a pager, etc... I like it pretty well. I've even used Excel a couple times and it seems like a pretty nice spreadsheet (haven't checked out Word yet, but I know people who like it.) I have no complaints and while I was reluctant at first, I really prefer IE to Netscape.

At home, netscape crashes, X freezes and basically my system has never run perfectly since I switched to glibc. I'm going to the expo today and am going to pick up Debian or RH-6 or maybe *BSD and give that a go before I drop a few hundred on NT, but frankly, I hate KDE, GNOME, and all that unstable, resource hungry crap that everyone works on. It's clear that linux has moved to a new target audience and left real users like me behind.

I'm still learning windows and I haven't decided yet and hell, I can always go dual-boot, no?

Best wishes, Tony

Re:Serious? No way. (1)

Zack (44) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884880)

>How can Linux be serious? Slashdot was
>unreachable for the past few hours.

Which is of course a problem with linux... how silly of us... any time we can't connect to Slashdot, it's obviously a problem with Linux! There are never any network problems or router problems, or... (please note the dripping sarcasm)

> I think they're just there to disperse some of
> the FUD that Linux supporters are spewing.

Right.. FUD like: Linux is free. Linux is open source. Linux is stable. Linux is customizable. Linux runs on older hardware. That sort of FUD?

Re:Serious? No way. (1)

Zack (44) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884881)

>So when I'm running NT, and the screen suddenly
>turns blue, it's not NT?

Man, that happened to me not too long ago... I was sitting here, and suddenly the Blue Screen of Death popped up!

Thank god it was my xscreensaver bsod module ;-)

Seriously... I was attacking the posters claim that not being able to connect to slashdot was a fault of Linux. I still haven't seen a post telling me why it was.

The Revolution has Begun (0)

Jeremiah Cornelius (137) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884882)

Microsoft is like a dictatorial regime, paranoid and afraid.


Bill Gates is the Suharto figure here, and the crackdown is coming, kids!


Keep coding...

It won't help. (1)

gavinhall (33) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884893)

Posted by NJViking:

They will never win. You can't beat something that is inherently superior and can't be bought.

-= NJV =-
"He hath need of his wits who wanders wide,
aught simple will serve at home;
but a gazing-stock is the fool who sits
mid the wise, and nothing knows." - The Havamal

into the mind... (3)

pohl (872) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884900)

We should give them tons of advice here. They could start each day with a chorus of "join us now and share the software, you'll be free, hackers, you'll beeeee freeeeeee". Seriously, though, I'm happy to hear this little tidbit. It means that Microsoft is joining the peer-review process, which can only strengthen the software in the long run.

No response is required. (3)

Ami Ganguli (921) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884902)

Let RedHat, Oracle, IBM, Caldera, Corel, and anybody else who has a vested interest in fighting Microsoft deal with this.

The correct response for Linux users/hackers is to keep doing what you've always done. Use the OS you like best. Code the apps you want to use. If you see a good application for Linux in your company, lobby to get it deployed. That's what will make Linux better.

What happens in the "commercial" world is interesting and I really hope Microsoft gets thrashed, but it doesn't really affect us directly.

"Fight the good fight!" (0)

PHroD (1018) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884903)

as said Rush.

M$ is just soo laughably STUPID...but as has been stated often, just keep coding..make it fast, make is strong and make it sexy


"There is no spoon" - Neo, The Matrix

If you feel like writing... (3)

Tim Macinta (1052) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884907)

If you feel like writing essays about Microsoft and you need a place to post them I'd be happy to let you use my KMFMS [kmfms.com] site. I've been gathering links to news articles as references to why Microsoft is bad [kmfms.com] , and I think some essays on Microsoft's practices would compliment this list nicely. I've been wanting to write some myself for awhile but just working on the list of links has kept me busy.

Only one thing changes... (1)

V. (1057) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884908)

now the PR people who were working on the Usenet astroturf campaign can go ahead and admit
they're contracting with MS.?.

Re:I'm switching to NT. (3)

astroboy (1125) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884910)

Use whatever makes you most productive. It's all about choice.

Get ready for FUD (3)

_damnit_ (1143) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884911)

This is a great opportunity for linux.com and other sites to have their documentation at the ready to combat the oncoming flood of FUD. Everyone should help with documentation, especially graduates from "Newbie" status who can write-up nontechnical HOW-TOs for the upcoming class of newbies.

Chris

The Strategy (5)

Elias Ross (1260) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884918)

Why isn't Microsoft using those ten engineers to make their product better? What can ten engineers do to help the company researcing the competition. It seems like a clueless response some managers must have thought up. Those ten engineers will eventually come to the conclusion:

1) Linux is more stable than NT, that's why people who need stable servers use it over NT.


2) Linux is cheaper, and runs on cheaper hardware.

3) You can't stop people from developing it.

4) Every day, people are less and less afraid of it, wheres many people are afraid of Microsoft and their "roadmap." People are more conciencious about how they are being abused by Microsoft.

5) Even though Linux has weaknesses, and is slower on 4-way Xenon Intel processors with 4 gigs of ram, etc., Linux is continuously being improved and will eventually be superior.

6) Other companies have interest in seeing Linux succeed, and technologies such as XFS are being given away to help OS's like Linux. The goodwill is spreading like Christmas cheer, and the grinches at Microsoft are eager to spoil the party.

Despite the nasty FUD which will no doubt increasingly come oozing out of Redmond Campus, think of it this way: They're wasting their time. And now, they're wasting even more of their money.

Good luck.

The Pentagon Papers. (1)

MeAtHereDotCom (1511) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884933)

I think that Microsoft should have a good, long look at The Pentagon Papers.

Remember the 'policing' of vietnam 30 years ago? Linux is guerilla warfare. Microsoft is going to try conventional tactics, and they are going to fail. People are going to use Linux because it WORKS.

Linux. It's oozing. It's creeping. Soon. It will BE EVERYWHERE!

(/sheerlinuxzealot)

Thoughts... (5)

Matts (1628) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884934)

My first thought when I read this was:

"How does the free software community fight that!"

I mean, 10 microsoft employees - that's got to be over a million bucks a year to MS... That's some serious effort to fight a free operating system.

But then I relaxed - because we don't have to fight it - we just keep on using and producing quality products, and fight them on our terms - quality, stability, openness, freedom. Those are terms MS finds it very difficult to fight on.

I'm actually quite happy now that they've done this - it means they are totally serious about the free software community, and gives them more credibility than I could possibly have imagined over a year ago.

Thanks Bill.

perl -e 'print scalar reverse q(\)-: ,hacker Perl another Just)'

Huh? (1)

marcus (1916) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884936)

>...create a version of MS-Office that will only
>run when a specific library is installed, and
>make that library available only with MS-Linux.
>Since it is not part of the kernel, they wouldn't
>have to release it as free software.

Huh? They already do this. It's called winXX.
Others already do this, they are called 'binary only' releases AKA Star Office, WP8, various X servers. What would they gain by releasing MS-Linux except for performance, stabilty,... IF they do do this, then Linux will have won a major battle. They will have dumped their kernel and architecture. If "their linux" runs the code, compiles, links, and all else with everyone else's distro, then what's the problem? I mean really, if I can take my tar, rpm, deb, or whatever, ftp it to my new ms-linux box type ./configure;make;make install, what's the problem?

Listen To Microsoft (3)

Hrunting (2191) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884939)

I suppose that they're going to do the same thing that they've done to every other product they've come in contact with. Instead of defending Linux, people should read into the FUD to find out what Microsoft is attacking. Microsoft is probably going to start poking the tender spots of Linux, the spots that need to be addressed, the very spots that corporations are worried about. People should take Microsoft's FUD as an RFE. Rather than saying, "Our operating system is inherently superior to yours," say, "Hey, Softies, thanks for the tips!" and then program solutions to what Microsoft (and probably the businesses they target) sees as problems.

This is a Good Thing(tm). With Microsoft's eagle eye on the warpath, people are going to be more critical than ever of something that's already blessed with stability and strength. If the cards are played correctly, Linux can use what looks like a negative as an ultimate positive.

Quicksand (2)

tony@work (2206) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884940)

Interesting point. So the harder they push, the more we gain? I can see this is true if they actually try arguing with real data, and real facts.

However, if they attack us as they attacked Java, that is, by taking Linux and extending it in a proprietary fashion, we could be in trouble.

How could they do that? I proposed one method: create a version of MS-Office that will only run when a specific library is installed, and make that library available only with MS-Linux. Since it is not part of the kernel, they wouldn't have to release it as free software.

Did you ever read the story, "And Then There Were None"? It was an interesting '50s short story. Very funny. In it, a galactic patrol vessel lands on a planet of peaceful folk. Ever patrolman who goes into the world ends up "going native." Wouldn't it be great? Everyone who joins the "anti-Linux" group turns native?

That'd be a hoot.

Re:Serious? No way. (0)

sheldon (2322) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884942)

I think you need some lessons in reading comprehension.

Re:Serious? No way. (2)

sheldon (2322) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884943)

"Which is of course a problem with linux... how silly of us... any time we can't connect to Slashdot, it's obviously a problem with Linux! "

This is the same rationale that most Linux advocates have used to bash NT.

Witness the story about the Navy ship that had a problem with their system last summer.

Why This Could Be Good? (3)

pridkett (2666) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884944)

There is a possibility this could actually be a good thing. How so you might wonder? Well lets look at the situation, Microsoft has acknowledged that linux is a serious operating system that is making gains in the enterprise market. The enterprise market, is what matters, perhaps as much as the desktop.

So with this insight, microsoft has decided to dissuade people from using linux. By doing this they will cause people to actually evaluate their decision more than before hand. If someone says hey "linux can't serve SMB shares as efficently as NT can" then most IT people will look into it. If they do a good job they will find that its not nescessairly true, and in many situations the information that mickeysoft says is wrong.

We've seen them do this before. Saying that Java development was slow, inefficent and lacked a use. Yet we see that Java is alive and very strong today. Partially because the stuff that mickeysoft said was false, partially because the people behind Java were smart enough to change the system to address those faults.

With all the smart people behind linux its likely that the same thing will happen. By showing where the major bulletholes are, linus, alan and the crew will hopefully be able to make it bulletproof.

M$ and Ghandi (0)

Phoenix (2762) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884945)

Ghando is quoted as saying "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win". This has beed adopted by many Linux people out in the world.

First we were ignored by microsoft. "After all what could free software do that MS couldn't do better?" Then we were laughed at. "The hype will die down, It won't last". Now, they are strapping on thier gear and suiting up for battle. They have us right where we want them. This is it boys and girls...

Saddle up, Lock and Load

Re:and the MS anti-Java group was oh-so-successful (1)

acb (2797) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884947)

The Microsoft anti-Java effort wasn't an abject failure. To this day, Java hasn't been adopted as the ubiquitous, MS-killing, networked platform it was initially touted to be. At least some of that would be due to Microsoft's use of FUD and divisive tactics (the IE/Visual J++ contamination as well as behind-the-scenes deals).

Re:Just like Micro$oft... (1)

dattaway (3088) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884951)

This is why I believe antitrust laws should be enforced. Microsoft seems bent on destroying any competition so they can have greater than 90% of the market. Consumers loose. Computers crash. Its costs us a great deal when companies have downtime and loose information and process control. The DOJ needs to act and we need consumer groups to make sure we are protected.

Re:M$ and Ghandi (1)

dattaway (3088) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884952)

I wouldn't joke about this. Microsoft appears to be very serious with this project. They are trying to protect their market by putting the screws to Linux. Be afraid. Very afraid.

Re:I'm switching to NT. (1)

dattaway (3088) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884953)

I'm happy NT works for you. For me, NT is a different story. A few years ago, I tried NT at home. I can tell you about it crashing every few hours, crashing on the login screen, and the need to reinstall every month. I learned my lesson when I found other operating systems exist and work 100% of the time.

Now, I still work with NT and not because of choice. I know it has improved, but when it comes to reliability, it is Not There. Doing everyday things in NT makes me wish I was at home on my Linux boxen. I prefer my 386 laptop with Linux over a 128MB NT Pentium II box, because I can work faster and without fear of loosing information. Linux provides me with tight security that can be infinitly configured for the boxen connected directly to the internet.

I also found NT very difficult to configure when I wanted something different than simple email. I do not have the money and patience to try every third party product that makes claims and has the potential to introduce a virus on a system that has minimal security.

No Thanks!

First they ignore you. (5)

smithdog (3152) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884962)

As that wise man said, and has been quoted here many times before. First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win. I have been using GNU/Linux since the days before kernal 1.0 was released. As I have said in this forum many times before, Free Software is the main evolutionary path and M$ is a dead end. The power of Free Software exceeds its own technical superiority because the code does not die when companies go out of business. There is no stopping Free Software now. Three cheers to RMS, Linus, and all the other contributors to the Free Software movement. I also belive that the GNU/GPL is a significant development in world history. Stallman will always be remembered for this triumph of intellectual freedom. Cheers, gbs

Immune Deficiency Syndrome (3)

Dr. Evil (3501) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884964)

Microsoft isn't a software company, it's a monopoly company. It doesn't develop its product to survive, it survives by attacking the competition's immune system.

This is not to say that their products are without merit. Their products are of minimal merit. Just barely stable enough (99.9% uptime), barely secure enough (C2 Security), barely open enough (Currently investigating open source) and standards complant enough (Posix, OS/2) to squeak past the IT managers.

I wonder if MS will attack Linux with FUD, attempt to sabotage the codebase, or engineer incompatabilities into their OS. For instance extending SMB further to intentionally make it legally or technically difficult to emulate. Make IE not render pages generated by Apache, or perhaps a warning that perfomance is not gauranteed with Apache servers... kind of like what they did to DR DOS.

I don't like this one bit. Don't doubt the capabilites of MS, the history is quite clear, they fight dirty.

The popularity of linux is all that seems to concern MS. Orignially, Linux did not depend on popularity to continue. I hope that is still the case.

I was worried for a second there. (4)

roystgnr (4015) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884972)

I thought they might be forming a group to do the only thing that might hurt Linux: make Windows NT efficient, rock stable, compatible with decades of portable code, truly multiuser, secure, and network transparent.

But naah, they're just going to spread some FUD.

Move along folks, nothing to see here.

Well actually, (2)

Paul Carver (4555) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884973)

Slashdot is the only site I access on a regular basis that goes down often enough for me to notice. Occasionally Excite displays a "standard" page rather than my customized page, but at least the site stays up. Slashdot does have far more outages than most sites so it really isn't useful as an example of the stability of Linux. It really doesn't matter whether it's the fault of Linux or the network or routers since Rob rarely explains what the problem is.

Take today for example. Slashdot was inaccesible for at least 4 hours and the lack of posts sugests that it wasn't just me who couldn't reach it. Is there anything posted to explain the problem or even admit that there was a problem? No. Let's just ignore it and pretend that this Linux based site didn't have a 4 hour outage.

Re:Not necessary (2)

law (5166) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884978)

>More hype than it deserves

I use it, it works, that's not hype.

>Nothing new from what existed 20 years ago (well, >actually Unix is older than that...)

And the problem with that is?

>Lots of special effects, but no real content >(show me something that Linux can do that other >OS's can't)

He he, easy one; Linux does it all at the same time.


>Can't hold up on it's own (you still need to dual >boot to nt or 95 to run your real software, or >get any work done,

Like what? I run it 24/7 at work, doing real work.
The only games I play are chess and quakeII, what else is there?

There is no other OS on my harddrive.

Sounds like this is a troll to me; bet your reversed IP would show tide7.microsoft.com
I rather hope that it's true; because if not your a moron.



Re:Thank you Microsoft! (1)

doog (5889) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884990)

>Now that they have appeared to anger Linus, he states that the kernel developers will start to focus on those areas where Linux falls short in benchmarks

where did you read this?

Put FUD to Use! (5)

FFFish (7567) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884996)

Once again, I say that it's essential for the Linux community to make up their own rules for the game.

One such rule is to *not* defend one's product as the be-all and end-all. That's a business game, not an open community game.

Promote *ALL* other alternative OSes. Promote the BSDs. Promote BeOS. Promote MacOS and QNX and PalmOS(?) and every other OS.

They all have their place. QNX is a major force in the embedded market. Kicks ass on WindowsCE in every way. The BSDs are incredibly well done and kick NT ass. BeOS kicks everyone's ass in the multimedia department. MacOS is experiencing a resurgence, and is a delight to use.

Don't let Microsoft focus on one thing! Force them to deal with *ALL* things, *ALL* the time.

They can't spread FUD on all the competition...

...change the rules! Keep them hopping --- and learn to use the mass media!

Re:Thank you Microsoft! (2)

Signal 11 (7608) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884997)

Linus upset at the benchmarks? He'll be focusing on improving scores? Credentials please.

--

Thank you Microsoft! (1)

WORLOK (7690) | more than 15 years ago | (#1884999)

I think this is GREAT!!!! Now that they have appeared to anger Linus, he states that the kernel developers will start to focus on those areas where Linux falls short in benchmarks. THAT IS GREAT NEWS!!!!! What are they gonna say when they have no more benchmarks to trot out? Also, anybody laugh about that remark about Linux not being as secure as NT ??? Ha ha ha ha!!!

Thank you M$ !!!!






==============================
Windows NT has crashed,
I am the Blue Screen of Death,

Re:If this is true (2)

fishbowl (7759) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885004)

MS was only able to do this against OS/2 and
Java because IBM and Sun must justify their
existence with dollars.

Linux only has to justify its existence with
its own existence.

What they might accomplish is shutting us
out of IT in business. Make it impossible for
us to get high-end stuff like JFS or ORBs and
so on, by influencing the people who would
create those things.

How can Linux possibly be considered competition? (5)

Thag (8436) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885007)

I'm NOT referring to competition on technical grounds - Linux can and will kick NT's ass in a fair fight, as a server at least.

But the simple fact of the matter is that Linux is GIVEN AWAY FOR FREE. The vast majority of people who work on it WORK ON IT FOR FREE. In an economic sense, how does this constitute competition? It's like saying that backyard gardens are competition with supermarkets. The reason the Linux model works is that it DOESN'T depend on sales!

Every commercial competitor of Microsoft's has been woefully unable to generate enough sales to build momentum, even when, as in the case of OS/2, their product was superior and in the market first. Microsoft has too much of a headlock on the sales channel and the mindshare of businesses and corporations. Not enough copies of the OS get sold, and so not enough software companies jump in making software for the OS because the market is too small, which in the turn causes people to not buy the OS. It's a vicious cycle.

The only reason that Linux hasn't fallen victim to this is that Linux isn't being developed for monetary reward. It's like if all the HO scale train buffs decided to build a real train line for the love of it.

Saying that Linux is competition for Microsoft is like saying that ham radio is competition for the telcos. It's being developed completely outside the traditional arena of work for pay. How then can you say that it competes within that arena?

Am I making sense?

Jon Acheson

My childish response (1)

Rotten (8785) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885010)

The difference betewn you and me is that you still have to pay your software, you still have to wait for new versions of your OS to fix problems, and you still have to pay again. While I don't pay, I fix the problems, and will never pay for bug fixing.
My work is done under Linux versions of software, that many times are actually ported from other Unix platforms that are far more stable than windows versions and when I fell like to play games I use my playstation.
The only Linux drawback is that lacks of the Blue Screen Of Death© that is property of MS Corporation...that makes me fell real sad...for you.

Re:First they ignore you. (1)

Locutus (9039) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885012)

The code may exist but support for devices could dwindle to a trickle. Currently many large device manufacturers are working on Linux drivers for their devices. If Microsoft can prevent Linux from growing into a widely used business OS, the support will end. Does OS/2 ring a bell? Windows developers were forced to sign licenses that forbid them from writting code for other OS's, IIRC, and application and device support for OS/2 dwindled. This is a powerful threat!

Re:If this is true (2)

Locutus (9039) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885026)

That is not what they do to kill competitor. It is something they constantly do though. What they have already started is a campaign to spread FUD about the competitor. They will not allow a superior technology eclipse their junk in the MINDs of IT and IS managment. I will say this again, THEY DID THIS TO OS/2 and the result is ugly. Published lies, invalid benchmarks, biased user studies by industry 'professionals'. If they win again we will have no hope of ever having a choice as to what data comes into our homes or what tools we can choose to do our jobs (technological solutions).

I just hope the public/press is smarter now then when OS/2 was attacked.

Help us Obe Wan Email, you're our only hope.
(knowledge is power if it can be diseminated)

Re:and the MS anti-Java group was oh-so-successful (3)

Locutus (9039) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885027)

No, no, no, you people must be too young to have seen what a Microsoft fed press can do to a superior competitor. OS/2 was annialated in the press with front page stories like OS/2 not having long filename support or that users found it very difficult to use. Even when IBM was selling around 1 million copies a month (selling, not preloads) a Ziff Davis reporter in Europe said IBM was killing OS/2 and the word spread. Later a friend was visiting the head of a Denver Hospitals IT department( they are friends ) and in conversation the IT head said that he had stopped evaluating replacing DOS/Windows with OS/2 because IBM was killing it.
This is what CAN happen to Linux and they have been targetting Linux since October of 1998. Remember the Holloween Document? This is serious folks, they are masters at this.

Does this suprise anyone? (0)

landley (9786) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885033)

I wonder if they'd like my button that says "Stop Plate Techtonics"... They could go have a protest rally against El Nino, too...

I don't recall Sun touting Java as MS-killer (1)

tuffy (10202) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885037)

MS tried to distribute J++ with additional keywords tacked-on to the language and non-compliant API implementations. The resulting backlash from the Java community and Sun's lawsuit resulted in COOL (which, to my knowledge, remains vapor).

To my knowledge, Java continues to thrive on the back-end where its slow startup times and versioning confusion aren't as relevent.

The main problems Java have had is applets were forced to use version 1.0 for far too long because browsers wouldn't/couldn't support anything better (now hopefully fixed using the plugin - an approach that should've been used from the beginning). And Sun neglected any sort of standardized distribution scheme for Java applications. Which makes starting them harder than it should be.

In short, I think the problems with Java are due to actual Java deficiencies rather than FUD on Microsoft's part.

and the MS anti-Java group was oh-so-successful... (2)

tuffy (10202) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885038)

Acknowledging the competition is a sure sign of trouble. And spreading FUD about them never works. There's no such thing as bad publicity. I have a feeling this is going to blow up in Microsoft's face in a big way.

you can't be serious (2)

tuffy (10202) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885039)

  • Linux is hyped by those who use it, not by those who are paid to sing its praises.
  • The average Linux distribution includes quite a bit of software much younger than 20 years old. Including web browsers/servers that were originally intented/implemented on UNIXen (IIRC).
  • No matter what distribution/desktop environment/window manager you use, Linux (and all UNIXen) provides a good engine under the hood. Plenty of good content there.
  • "Real software" and games in the same sentance? I think most would agree the Doom/Quake series are good games. And all my work gets done with EMACS, gcc, python, perl, Java, etc. I fail to see how Windows would be of any use whatsoever.
  • Linux already gives me more value for development work than Windows ever has. Or likely ever will.
Really, you can't possibly be serious.

Re:Not necessary (5)

Trith (10719) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885041)

>More hype than it deserves

No, the ability to have a free, stable OS is not hype. It's just good.

>Nothing new from what existed 20 years ago
>(well, actually Unix is older than that...)

Think about what you say before you say it. New apps are developed every day. Besides, if you'll step out of the box and see features as more than command line syntax, you can see that being FREE is a new thing for UNIX. How much did it cost relative to now 20 years ago?

>Lots of special effects, but no real content
>(show me something that Linux can do that other >OS's can't)

It can stay up under large loads without crashing.

It allows you to continue to use your computer for longer periods of time without upgrading.

Forgive me, but I must include the Bewolf clustering and the fact that I don't see a NT cluster making the worlds 16th fastest computer.
Someone please provide the link for that because I don't have it handy.

By the way, how many users can log onto NT Enterprise Server at a time? one?

>Can't hold up on it's own (you still need to >dual boot to nt or 95 to run your real software, >or get any work done, or play any good games.)

The games part was true, but now Quake III, Civ III, Myth II and such are comming out for Linux.
I can't run virues in Linux though. I always have to reboot to Windows when I want to use them.


>We have to wait 3-6 years for it to be worth >anything (who wants suffer waiting for linux to >mature, I'll install it once it can do the >things i need it to do and runs the programs i >need to run).

I can do more with Linux than I can with NT. The only thing NT does better is crash. It does that quite well.

You've obviously either never used Linux or just don't have the disire to be the best. I've used NT. I can speak from experience on both sides. Linux is far superior.

I'm not being mean, but you really just don't have a clue about Linux. Seriously, give it a try. I think you'll be surprised.


Romans 10:9-10 [gospelcom.net]

Re:Grammer DOES matter! (1)

Atanasov (10884) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885042)

Er..."Grammar" does matter.

e:Grammer DOES matter! (Does spelling?) (1)

finkployd (12902) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885063)

GrammAr perhaps? :)

Fink

Re: Oh yes it can. (5)

webslacker (15723) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885098)

This has nothing to do with who has the better multitasking, who has more stability, or who can throughput more data. It's all about politics and money. Already Microsoft hands huge grips of cash to many render-farms to switch away from Macs and SGI's to NT. Already Microsoft spreads propaganda to IT's about NT's server performance.

Can't be bought? Maybe all you Linux fans can't, but the MIS or IT who has to decide between doing work on Linux or getting a fat check from Microsoft for switching to NT can be. I can already name several game developers who've been offered six-figure "developer assistance" to switch their development away from Macs and SGI machines.

Java failure is (also) Sun's responsibility. (1)

cpeterso (19082) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885111)

I don't think we can blame Microsoft for Java's "failure". Sun has over-hyped, overpromised, and underdelivered late. Sun has played marketing games (ISO anyone?) but refuses to loosen their grip over Java code and standards.

I don't think Java has failed, though. It's must favorite language these days. It just hasn't delivered what Sun had promised..

Is the Stallman's "The Free Software"song? (2)

cpeterso (19082) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885113)

The Free Software Song [gnu.org]

ouch.. that hurts.

Is this news? (0)

Saint Stephen (19450) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885115)

Flash! Page 1! Business tries to compete with competitors! Film at 11! Seriously, thank you for spreading the buzz. It just goes to weaken the DOJ's case that much further.

Re:Serious? No way. (1)

Megaweapon (25185) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885129)

So when I'm running NT, and the screen suddenly turns blue, it's not NT?


The future of the OS (0)

opencode (28152) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885134)

Is there a chance this will evolve into NT becoming a competitive product (not just againt Linux, but against NT itself)??

First step, Mr. gates, is to reduce the cist of NT (and do away with that per-licence/per-seat arrangemet).

This, my fellow Linux heads, is not completely unrealistic ...



Next step is to distribute the code. Now this will probably NEVER happen, but Gates MUST analyze WHY exactly NT is inferior to the competition ...

Is it absurd to think that Microsoft can market a product that will re-configure the NT kernel/microkernel, but not give away the code?

I think this IS possible (and no, Virginia, this is NOT called Visual C++).

joachimj@usa.net



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This has been advertised at MS for a while.... (1)

Bob-K (29692) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885140)

About a month ago, there was a story here from somebody who had done a job search on "Linux" at Apple. I though it was clever, so I did the same search at MS and found one job advertised. It's in the marketing department. I saw no need to fan the anti-MS flames by posting it here, but the job is still listed as of today, so you can check it out for yourself.

M$ Ought to buy SCO (1)

TheMunk (29727) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885141)

Once I tasted UNIX there was no way I could ever be happy with a single user OS again. NT and linux are just too different. Im sorry but PC Anywhere just doesnt cut it. If MS wants to hinder the growth of Linux they shoould get their own version of UNIX to compete. To get a jumpstart, the should buy SCO and offer it as an additional product..

Cooperative World Domination (5)

adimarco (30853) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885147)

This is a very interesting move on Micros~1's part. Up until this point, they've always been competing with companies, tangible entities that can be defeated.

Criticize us! Please! It only gives us ideas to better our software. Here's my impression of the situation:

Micros~1: "Linux doesn't do this, and Linux doesn't support that."

Linux Community: Gee, thanks for the ideas, we'll go add that now.

The important thing to stress is that while Linux poses a threat to Micros~1, they can NEVER pose a threat to Linux. There's nothing to threaten. They can never take it away from us. They can never prevent us from doing what we want with it. We're not like a company, we can't go under, you can't take us to court, you can't DEFEAT us because there's nothing to defeat. Anything they can do we can do better and faster and cheaper, because we don't have a bottom line to worry about. All we need be concerned with is good software.

We don't even have money to lose :) All we have is our code and our passion, and they can never take those away from us.

Re:Remember - there's an antitrust suit still ongo (5)

remande (31154) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885153)

Methinks that Linux and the DOJ trial are in an interesting feedback loop.

Linux has been ready for the "buzz explosion" for some time now. Microsoft went into the DOJ trial, nad has been failing miserably. They have needed to show that there is competition, that they are not a monopoly.

I believe that tons of money got invested into Linux precisely because of the DOJ trial. Before this trial, nothing was keeping Microsoft from cutting off anybody who supported Linux.

Now that the buzz is in full explosion, MS can show the DOJ that it is competition and attack it as such. Personally, I don't care how the trial goes; the fact that it happened at all has made the difference.

Another side effect of the trial is that Microsoft is forced to spout the virtues of Linux to the courts to defend the theory that Linux is indeed a contender. They then have to turn around and tell the market that Linux is not a contender.

With some money and some lawyers, Microsoft will start finding themselves back in court--for false advertising, slander, and/or perjury. You cannot lie under oath, you cannot make false claims in advertising, so contradicting your testimony with your marketing is a criminal offense of one sort or another.

My question is, who has both the money and the motive to spend it on lawyers? Everybody seems to be investing in Red Hat, but I don't know their budgetary situation. IMHO, the best anti-FUD is to overturn said FUD in court.

The trick is to keep Microsoft fighting fair. They win when they can operate unhindered by the law. They lose when the law catches up with them.

Re:Just like Micro$oft... (0)

flesh99 (32039) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885164)

[RANT]

This is why I believe antitrust laws should be enforced

Get a grip people, unless you break the computer industry down into litlle bitty teeny tiny groups M$ doesn't have a monopoly. Why do you people have such a problem with allowing a company to be run in a free manner, Christ on a pogo stick, you people woudn't bitch if say....Debian had a majority market share. Why because you like Linux, no wait thats right RedHat is the ne M$. Why do you think the gov't should break up M$ because you don't like their product. Then don't flippin' use it. M$ is the best example of what ANYONE can do in a free market society, and just because they do it best you want them taken out, get a fucking grip. M$ releases new versions of it's software on a somwhat regular basis so they advance technology. They release bloated and top heavy software, but guess what, the AVERAGE (read that as consumer, you know the general public, the people who you are trying to save) person LIKES IT. Until we convince the public on a majority scale we can't afford to win, because by "saving them" from M$ we shove Linux down their throats, and that makes us just as bad. Oh and BTW check your local Best Buy, the have RedHat on the shelf right next to M$ Windows, don't try and tell me there is not a choice, in fact there is and the PUBLIC chooses M$. Why not spend the energy you spend by dreaming about ways to destroy M$, and try to get Linux ready for the open market, because it's not there yet. Oh yeah and SHUT UP about the DOJ, they are as bad as M$, what is they came after RedHat for some reason, even if it was valid half of /. would be up in arms.

You say the public are M$ sheep, well guess what pal people like you are Linux sheep. Sheep follow, it doesn't matter what you follow you are still a follower. People like are blind to the needs of the many like M$ but slightly different. I am going to shout up now but don't be suprised if you post an uneducated response and I get going again.


On second thought I am not near done yet. Half of the posts I see around here (on issues like this) are nothing but repetitve collective idiocy. People don't do their research, don't know the anti-trust laws, apperently don't know the definition of a FREE MARKET, yet they continue to bitch about M$, come on, there are better ways to slam M$ other than for having a monopoly (which technically they don't).

The DOJ needs to act and we need consumer groups to make sure we are protected.

Oh yeah thats a great idea, I suppose you think I shouldn't be allowed to ride a motorcycle without a helmet (dumb, but my right), drive without a seatbelt (dangerous to no-one but myself), own a gun (Oh God it might go off), hell why don't you say we shouldn't leave our houses at all unless the gov't says it's safe. There are too many goddanm laws as it is, the last thing I want is the gov't "protecting" me from myself. As for consumer groups, get real they would have to be run by consumers, and consumers use M$. If they weren't run by consumer who will get, some-one smarter. Give up if you can't compete don't enter the fucking market, Linux is coming of age and will win, but it will win with superior technology, persitance, vigilance, and honesty, it doesn't need the gov't help. I never yelled for my daddy when I was young and a bully came along, I have owned two businesses that were shut down beacause of large companies and I didn't run crying to anyone, even my wife, I went on and found a better business. If mom and pop can't compete put 'em in an old folks home and get back to business.

[/RANT]



________________________________________________ ________
Can We trust the future - Flesh99

Re:Get ready for FUD (2)

ShadoWolf (32966) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885175)

Actually, we have a site doing that already. www.linuxnewbie.org Look for hte NHFs (Newbieized Help Files)

ShadoWolf

Don't underestimate them (3)

Gischer (33166) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885176)

It's always a serious mistake to underestimate the capabilities of your opponent. They aren't devoid of engineering talent, in spite of sneers on /. to the contrary. They have plenty of marketing smarts, and very deep pockets. Plus they'll be fighting for their survival, at least, the NT business will be. I'd have to say that Linux is still the underdog, though it has considerable assets too.

The FUD Machine cometh... (2)

CabanaBoy (33592) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885179)

Nice. Looks like Microsoft is experiencing
- Fear of the Mighty Penguin
- Uncertainty about their future market share
- Doubt in their ability to compete on a level (somewhat) playing field.

So Linux is now a clear and present danger (like it wasn't before!). I suppose they hope that marketing will succeed where Software Engineering failed.

Re:Just like Micro$oft... (1)

mdemeny (35326) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885186)

Exactly....they can't hire 10 people to clean up the bug-ridden windoze code...but they *can* hire 10 more people to slave away in their FUD department. Just goes to show where their priorities are.

-m

Troubling (4)

Aiantes (35663) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885187)

Don't underestimate Microsoft; they can deploy some very smart people, if sufficiently concerned.

They are now sufficiently concerned--the giant has awakened. Indeed, the point of this group will not be to generate FUD, as so many of you seem to be assuming.

Has the Open Source Community imagined all the possible moves open to Microsoft?

Have we any counter-strategies?

Doubtless, Microsoft is already thinking three and four moves ahead.

Let the game begin...

Re:I'm switching to NT. (1)

wimpy (39015) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885192)

Try RH6 and blow your money on more RAM + a matrox g200
instead of NT4. That way you have a fast & stable X server
and enough RAM to run whatever comfortably. That would
make more sense then wasting your money on NT and trying
to dress it up as UNIX.

What if this is not about marketing! (2)

nevets (39138) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885193)

What if this team is not about to spread more FUD, but actually tries to get hardware vendors to support NON-standard protocols. Although this would be difficult to do, but this is the one area that FSF is vulnerable.

If MS succeeds in making large numbers of hardware proprietary, this would hurt Linux and FSF. Yes we can always reverse engineer (if it is legal) but that takes time and in the business world, time matters.

If this team is just spreading FUD, then I say "good". That would help more than hurt. But if they are going to come out with a plan to hide standards from FSF developers, and maybe even make it so that reverse-engineering is strictly prohibited, then we might have a problem.

If I was on that "Linux Group", the first thing I would do is read slashdot!

Lets get ready to rumble!!! (5)

nevets (39138) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885194)

MS setting up a team to combat Linux!
War has been declared. The one thing that I don't think MS has realized yet, is that Linux is NOT a company. Sun, Netscape, IBM, and Apple, are all companies, where as, Linux is a community (although I will say Apple is close in this respect :). Linux can survive without businesses. And its roots are with the technical developers. Although management is MS focused, the real work is always done by techies. And that group favours the better OS. We don't like to have our hands held by a system. We want to control it!

MS may convince management to watch out for those "Linux people" who will not play by the rules, but it's time that us techies start talking to our management. Make this an internal vs. external (Microsoft) battle. I've already have given two seminars on Linux that was focused towards management. I request others do the same.

Call for arms here!

P.S. This was always my signature, I didn't updated for this response, although I see others have this Ghandi quote....

Re:Not necessary (2)

cr0sh (43134) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885200)

>show me something that Linux can do that other OS's can't

OK - I am a Linux newbie - struggling to break the bonds from M$. My first install happened to be on a laptop over a network connection to my Win95 machine. I had installed extra memory, and at the time I didn't know it, but the laptop was bad, and the extra memory would cause it to crash randomly (remove the memory, no more crashes - and it wasn't the memory, because I had the same memory installed in a different laptop, and it works fine). I began to _install_ Linux using a boot floppy - the install was going great, then the machine dumped - did the Linux based installer die? NO - it gracefully exited, giving me numerous (too numerous) information on why it exited, and shut down the system (very similar to the "shutdown -h now" command sequence) - the message was good enough for me to diagnose what had happened.

I can only imagine what would have happened had it been Windoze (can you say blue screen?)...

So what is the one thing that Linux can do that other OS's can't? Simple:

It can't crash.

Seriously - do I really think Linux can't crash? No - any OS on any machine CAN crash. Do I think that Linux crashes often (as often as my Win95 box)? Hell no! My own experiences and anecdotal stories refutes that!

Just another Linux Newbie...

Remember - there's an antitrust suit still ongoing (5)

Chmee (44971) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885204)

I find it "interesting" that Microsoft is telling the world about this group, and even supplying quotes from the team leader to the press...

I think that Microsoft is happy as hell at this point to see Linux pop up, because they need something to point to for competition in their antitrust suit - it's still going on, you know!

They've been clutching for something to call competition - Paul Maritz is quoted as saying under oath that AbiSource's word processor, AbiWord, is competition for MS Word, even though it's still WAY beta and not fully functional.

Re:What a joke. (1)

topdogg (200755) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885220)

Ah poor lit Microsoft, Has to grow up and act like an adult, They have been a kid to long, But wait, is it to late for Microsoft? hmmm....

Re:Cooperative World Domination (1)

topdogg (200755) | more than 15 years ago | (#1885221)

It's live to CODE!! baby.. But some how Microsoft went to phatsoft.com [phatsoft.com] and didn't understand this, So they started to CODE a little (sleep 5) Try to make more (sleep 3) try to make everyone think you cheap ass code is cool (sleep 7) Code a little more, (sleep 2) lie some more..
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