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FSF, OpenOffice.org Team Reach Agreement on Java

timothy posted more than 9 years ago | from the detente dept.

Java 411

Bruce Byfield points out his NewsForge (part of OSTG) article about something good coming out of the conflict over Java in OpenOffice.org. It begins "A dispute between the Free Software Foundation (FSF) and OpenOffice.org (OOo) over the increased use of Java in the upcoming version 2.0 release of OOo is over -- at least for now. The two groups have found a short-term solution, and are working together on ways to keep the dispute from happening again." The story provides a decent background on why it matters, and shows a surprisingly conciliatory attitude on both sides.

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Will this always happen. (4, Insightful)

jellomizer (103300) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547355)

Will this always happen when a product reached the popular user base? I think there should be more work to integrating OSS project with Non OSS projects. Either making Non-OSS projects with OSS Prerequisite and vice versa. If OSS it is about freedom, why do they make it difficult for us to choose a non free development method? If you become to popular then you will be forced to use OSS tools except for what the developers think is the best tool for the job. We should be able to develop without the Free Software Organizations Pressuring us to make our legally developed products fit their idea on what is Free Software. If this is played out to the full extent then we are just as stuck as those who choose to use non-OSS products because we are forced to choose between what is available OSS. I believe in freedom as me as a developer to allowed to choose what tools I wish to use, and for other to assume that I have weighed the Pros and Cons of my choices. This type of stuff that happens is why commercial companies are weary of OSS.

In case you ever get laid... (0, Offtopic)

Fecal Troll Matter (445929) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547433)

Good news!

British researchers have come up with a chemical-impregnated condom that boosts the male erection and thus prevents the sheath from slipping off during sexual intercourse.

The "condom safety device" was designed by scientists at Futura Medical in Guildford in Surrey and is expected to be on the market within 18 months.

Futura chief executive James Barder said about 2 per cent of condoms slipped off during intercourse, resulting in unwanted pregnancies and increased risk of sexually transmitted infections.

"One of the major reasons for the problem is that at times men don't maintain a full erection during intercourse," he said.

The new product, named CSD500, aims to prevent this. It is impregnated with a chemical in its teat, called glyceryl trinitrate, which is absorbed through the skin into the muscle tissue and causes the blood vessels in the penis to dilate.

Viagra works in a similar way, but Barder said that, unlike Viagra, the condom was meant for men who did not suffer from impotence problems.

Even sexually healthy men could find themselves unable to maintain an erection while wearing a condom because of the loss of sensation, he said.

About 13 billion condoms are sold worldwide each year.

Re:Will this always happen. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547447)

Or you could just tell Dick S. that your code is OS, and if he doesn't like using Sun's tools, impliment his own JVM and libraries.

Little Ricky just wants everything done in GNU/C so he can die thinking every OSS project is GNU-.

Right now he can't even start to say that it is GNU-OOo, adn that pisses him off

Re:Will this always happen. (1)

JebusIsLord (566856) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547706)

how about reading the article before trashing on Stallman? He says very clearly that they WON'T fork OOo development and instead focus on improving GCC's java front-end, and making sure that OOo works with it.

The concern is/was that a free software solution can't have a non-free dependency (Sun JRE). He's making sure that doesn't happen. No one cares that it is written in Java per se.

Montreal? (1)

montreal!hahahahah (880120) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547448)

hhahahhahah!

Re:Will this always happen. (5, Interesting)

ZephyrXero (750822) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547453)

This stuff happens because you shouldn't build open/free software off proprietary software. If you want to use open software as a foundation or library for your proprietary software, that's fine...but you don't develop open source code with a closed source language. It defeats the purpose of it being open. Linus found out the hardway and I'm glad that Open Office will hopefully be having an easier time...

Re:Will this always happen. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547535)

This will hold true, but OOo spawned because of SUN.

Re:Will this always happen. (2, Insightful)

FidelCatsro (861135) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547624)

the problem i belive was that OO.org was origionaly star office (star office still being around and being the comercial version of OO.org basicaly now)and the code base was heavily tied to java already .Sun had decided to open the projects to get some input from the oss world in exchange for an open source office program.
So it is only natural that they would be still using alot of java , not that i agree entierly with the decision to continue to build upon the java elements but just a little background as to why it hapens

Re:Will this always happen. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547634)


This stuff happens because you shouldn't build open/free software off proprietary software. If you want to
use open software as a foundation or library for your proprietary software, that's fine...but you don't
develop open source code with a closed source language. It defeats the purpose of it being open. Linus
found out the hardway and I'm glad that Open Office will hopefully be having an easier time...


When are open-sourced based CPUs going to be available? Does anyone know of any available? I don't *feel* free with the current processor offerings available. Transmeta was the closest, since Linus worked for them way back when.

Re:Will this always happen. (5, Insightful)

davecb (6526) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547725)

ZephyrXero writes: don't develop open source code with a closed source language.

Remember the bad old days when the brand-new language "C" was owned by Bell Labs, and they claimed anything you wrote in C belonged to Bell?

Remember how long that was true? As measured in picoseconds?

There are no closed source languages. That's an urban legend. You can try to booby-trap a language, like MS tried to do to Java, but that won't work, either. You may recollect that MS failed in that effort, expensively(!).

It's almost impossible to encumber open source software by using proprietary tools. That's a self-serving tale told by the proprietary vendors, and false.

Re:Will this always happen. (2, Insightful)

Tim C (15259) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547869)

you don't develop open source code with a closed source language. It defeats the purpose of it being open. Linus found out the hardway

Linus used Java in the kernel?! There I was thinking it was getting faster, and it was because he was rewriting Java code in C all along!

Seriously, the BitKeeper debate has nothing to do with this. He was given a free licence, which was then revoked, as was allowed by the terms of the licence. How is that like Java? If Sun went belly-up tomorrow and/or abandoned Java, I still have my current JVM installs and permission to use them.

Free as in "do as we say" (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547506)

Like most programmers, RMS dreams about the world working within the framework of his abstractions.

He used to talk about how one day GNU was going to tbe the ONLY operating system. He still no doubt dreams of a day when no commercial software developer can compete without linking to some GPL'd code.

This is all about being BIG and IMPORTANT. When people say, "Sure, we'll use GPL'd stuff, but we'll fit it into our own frameworks, we're not going to fit our stuff into the FSF/GNU vision." that's no good. The FSF can't take over the world that way, and Saint Ignutius will end up just a ridiculous hippy with delusions of grandeur.

Re:Free as in "do as we say" (0, Flamebait)

Megaweapon (25185) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547546)

Exactly! This is why the BSD licenses are more "free" (free as in "freedom") than the GPL. This "I have a right to YOUR source code" nonsense goes past what "free" really means.

Re:Free as in "do as we say" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547636)

No, BSD licenses are not free. Public domain is truly free, BSD is not because it forces you to give credit.

Re:Free as in "do as we say" (1)

Megaweapon (25185) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547666)

I said "more free", not "free-est thing evar!!11". Granted, truly free wouldn't involve a license of any sort.

Re:Free as in "do as we say" (4, Insightful)

mjh (57755) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547847)

Ok. But BSD being "more" free is not really in dispute... at least I don't think it is. What's in dispute is whether or not BSD is a better licensing model than GPL. As someone who's published GPL licensed code, I don't really consider the BSD license that much. Mainly because it would irk me to no end if I bought a piece of software from someone else, and it turned out to have my code in it!

BSD is great (IMHO) for things like reference implementations (e.g. for TCP/IP). For things that you want implemented everywhere. But if you don't want your code ending up proprietary then it's not as good. GPL is better at keeping your code open.

Which is to say that there are advantages to each license, and it's not obvious to me that either is inherantly better than the other.

$.02

Re:Free as in "do as we say" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547843)

Public domain is truly free, BSD is not because it forces you to give credit.

There are versions of the BSD licence that do not require one to give credit. Kind of an explicit public domain thing.

Re:Free as in "do as we say" (2, Insightful)

Qzukk (229616) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547812)

This "I have a right to YOUR source code" nonsense goes past what "free" really means.

I suspect you don't understand what exactly is "free" in this situation.

The GPL makes sure the code stays free. Remember "information wants to be free"? The FSF doesn't care about the programmers, as long as the code remains free.

If you don't like it, don't use the GPL, don't contribute code to a GPL project, and for heaven's sake don't use the Linux kernel because you're too cheap to come up with an OS of your own or buy a ready-made one for your dvd player then whine when people bitch at you.

Re:Free as in "do as we say" (2, Insightful)

killjoe (766577) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547860)

Er um when you use BSD code aren't you saying "I have a right to YOUR source code"?

Re:Will this always happen? (1)

davecb (6526) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547589)

It will happen when one comes up against differences of licensing, most notably when working with GPL, less so with LGPL and rarely with BSD, which is often not restrictive enough.

If you're an author and may ever work with third-party libraries, plug-ins or, in the future, web services, multiply license your work and make sure LGPL is in the list.

Most of my work has been GPL or BSD, but in retrospect I'd have better with a medium-severity license like the Lesser/Library GPL. Read RMS's article about why not to use the LGPL, and understand the trade-off you're making.

--dave

Re:Will this always happen. (0)

synthespian (563437) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547642)

If OSS it is about freedom, why do they make it difficult for us to choose a non free development method?

This is like asking: "Since individual freedoms are assured in the U.S. Constitution, why can't I just blow your brains out, if I feel like it?"

Seriously deranged...

Awwww, how cute (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547357)

A big hippy grouphug fest. NOW GET BACK TO WORK!

The concessions (4, Insightful)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547365)

only official Java APIs are allowed to be used

This was already being done. There was a plugin interface that hooked into the AWT layer of the JVM, but that was something that was easily replacable by other VMs. Previous versions of OOo (probably from back when it was StarDivision property) used hidden APIs, but this was cleaned up in the 2.0 edition.

Java JRE interested parties provide the support code and take care
of QA, bugs etc.


This sounds like they're moving the plugin code out of OpenOffice and into the JVM. Technically, this is where it belongs, but it's always nice to be able to support the largest number of VMs possible.

OOo Java implementations must be encapsulated with well specified APIs

This is just good engineering design. If you can't produce readable JavaDocs from it, it isn't a good API.

OOo Java implementations must not check against Java versions or
vendors, with the only exception of workarounding bugs


Again, this is just common sense. Checking version numbers is a good way to nail yourself in the foot on future releases.

OOo Java implementations must not use swing, either because no free
swing implemetation is available or because it makes the user interface
inconsistent, this rule might be relativated in respect to 4


This is just common sense anyway. Using Swing would be detrimental to the GUI unless it was decided that the entire GUI framework would move at once. Such a decision would involve the entire OOo community.

the Java baseline is 1.3.1

This is the only concession I see being made. (1.4 & 1.5 have some *really* nice features.)

The amusing part about this is that the whole tirade against Java in OOo is nothing but a farce. A quick check of the 2.0 code finds almost nothing that violates these "concessions", and they amount to nothing more than diplomacy anyway. (i.e. The art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a big stick.)

The truth is that Sun has bent over backwards for the OSS community, and all they get for their troubles are painful stabs in the back. Yeah, Sun's got some loud mouths working for them. But their actions have ALWAYS been honorable. Despite all the nonsense about "contamination", has anyone EVER had Sun sue them? I've certainly never heard of a case! And when Sun realized that the language was confusing, they updated future source releases [java.net] with new language [java.net] that EXPLICITY gives developers rights to whatever they remember. So no more excuses! If you want an OS Java platform, code it. Sun sure as hell isn't standing in your way.

BTW, Mr. Stallman. How's Hurd coming along?

Re:The concessions (2, Interesting)

GigsVT (208848) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547462)

Your "common sense" is not too common when it comes to most Java apps I have ever attempted to use.

There are two possible conclusions. Either all Java developers are idiots, too stupid to learn a real language, or these are important rules to nail down before they become problems. Since the former obviously isn't true, it must be the latter.

Re:The concessions (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547799)

A real language, you must mean C# then. Im quite sure you dont mean a language that can stick its feet out and trip up any programmer oh no not at all. Im also sure you dont mean that other language with no support for properties at all without hacking Templates, I mean non compiled ascii substituted text.

Re:The concessions (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547475)

"The amusing part about this is that the whole tirade against Java in OOo is nothing but a farce. A quick check of the 2.0 code finds almost nothing that violates these "concessions", and they amount to nothing more than diplomacy anyway. (i.e. The art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a big stick.)"
Oh, so this must be the reason why building OO2 with a free java has been such a pita and required so much work...

"The truth is that Sun has bent over backwards for the OSS community, and all they get for their troubles are painful stabs in the back."
Let's cry together about how badly poor, poor SUN are treated...

Seriously, I'd gladly agree that SUN has done some incredible things for the FOSS community (OpenOffice.org sure is one of them), however that really doesn't mean that one shouldn't be able to critizise SUN when they do something bad and stupid, so what's your point apart from whining?

"BTW, Mr. Stallman. How's Hurd coming along?"
And has got exactly what to do with the story? Oh nothing, you simply thought you could score a cheap shot and start a flamewar. Wow, how mature.

Re:The concessions (2, Insightful)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547564)

Oh, so this must be the reason why building OO2 with a free java has been such a pita and required so much work...

Such as? No one has come forward with any solid complaints against the 2.0 release. Almost all complaints (e.g. hidden APIs) are against the OLD version of OOo. If you have a solid argument then by all means, make it.

however that really doesn't mean that one shouldn't be able to critizise SUN when they do something bad and stupid

Except that they haven't managed to do anything stupid. They leveraged the Java platform with the full blessing of the OOo community to produce a quality product. That's smart. Rebuilding everything from scratch because you don't want to keep up with technological progress is stupid.

"BTW, Mr. Stallman. How's Hurd coming along?"
And has got exactly what to do with the story? Oh nothing, you simply thought you could score a cheap shot and start a flamewar.


No, I couldn't resist that shot. Because Mr. Stallman has incited his own flamewar over absolutely nothing, while simultanously showing that his foundation is incapable of managing anything as complex as Java. Look at the Linux success and trace out which programmers are doing the most powerful work. You'll find that $$$ and hours are coming from IBM, Oracle, Sun, and other big names to make Linux useful. Same with OOo. It's not the GNU volunteers who are doing the bulk of the work.

Re:The concessions (1)

node 3 (115640) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547678)

Mr. Stallman has incited his own flamewar over absolutely nothing

Obviously false. It's the reliance on problematic (to the FSF) technology that this issue (flamewar? WTF?) is about. You *clearly* don't see that as a problem, but you can't call it "absolutely nothing". Not honestly, at least.

his foundation is incapable of managing anything as complex as Java

emacs, gcc, gnu...

Re:The concessions (2, Interesting)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547752)

It's the reliance on problematic (to the FSF) technology that this issue (flamewar? WTF?) is about.

The FSF's failure to produce a JVM based on open specs is NOT everyone else's problem. If Mr. Stallman wants to fix the situation, he should be inciting his troops to fix their Open JVMs. Otherwise he can keep his trap shut, because he has no right to complain.

emacs, gcc, gnu...

Funny, it seems that EMacs and GCC have a lot of help from corporate entities. And what is "gnu"? I'm not familiar with that program.

Re:The concessions (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547783)

"Funny, it seems that EMacs and GCC have a lot of help from corporate entities."

And what's so funny about that? Or are you one of those zealots who still buy into the GNU==communists bullshit?

Re:The concessions (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547854)

And here folks, is an example of someone who didn't read the thread in the first place, and kicked himself in the nuts with a knee-jerk reaction.

Please mod the parent down for not taking the time to understand the discussion.

Re:The concessions (1)

node 3 (115640) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547823)

Otherwise he can keep his trap shut, because he has no right to complain.

He's not allowed to complain about something he doesn't like, but you are?

Funny, it seems that EMacs and GCC have a lot of help from corporate entities. And what is "gnu"? I'm not familiar with that program.

Funny, but you said, "while simultanously showing that his foundation is incapable of managing anything as complex as Java". The FSF manages emacs, gcc and GNU (GNU is not a program, it's an OS).

Re:The concessions (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547758)

"Such as? No one has come forward with any solid complaints against the 2.0 release. Almost all complaints (e.g. hidden APIs) are against the OLD version of OOo. If you have a solid argument then by all means, make it."

Just look at the efforts the RedHat devs had to put into making OO2 run with a free java and you will know what I'm talking about.

"Except that they haven't managed to do anything stupid. They leveraged the Java platform with the full blessing of the OOo community to produce a quality product. That's smart. Rebuilding everything from scratch because you don't want to keep up with technological progress is stupid."
Ah, the beauty of false arguments.
1. You present a false dichotomy, as if the only option is to either use Java, or not keep up with technological progress. That's of course simply bs.
2. Using a non-free platform (And Java is a non-free platform, at least until free implementations are truly ready) to build a free software application will inevitably produce problems.

"No, I couldn't resist that shot. Because Mr. Stallman has incited his own flamewar over absolutely nothing, while simultanously showing that his foundation is incapable of managing anything as complex as Java."
1. GNU's failure to deliver on hurd has nothing to do with the validity of Stallmans critic, nothing at all.
2. That Stallman incited a flamewar over absolutely nothing is wrong for two reasons:
a) He didn't even start this discussion.
b) As already stated, using a technology that will inevitably pose a problem for the FOSS community is a problem, no matter how often you deny it.

"You'll find that $$$ and hours are coming from IBM, Oracle, Sun, and other big names to make Linux useful. Same with OOo. It's not the GNU volunteers who are doing the bulk of the work."
They may be now, after people like the GNU volunteers (ever thought about how useful a Linux system would be without the GNU tools?) made Linux a viable option.

Re:The concessions (0, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547497)

BTW, Mr. Stallman. How's Hurd coming along?

It's at a stall, man.

Get off your horse (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547550)

I'm weary of these holier-than-thou sneers like "Sun is Gandhi-Jesus-Santa Claus and you're evil for not kissing up". Sun is working with open source because they think it will benefit their business, full stop.

It's frightening how alienated people get by democracy --the rough and tumble of free discussion-- and how attracted they are to moralizing on behalf of their pet prejudices.

Re:Get off your horse (-1, Flamebait)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547650)

What's frightening is how little people like you understand trust. No one can do anything without some degree of trust. Part of building a strong business is to get your customers to trust you. I generally trust Sun, because they've worked hard to earn that trust. You trust Stallman not to screw you because you feel that he holds to principles you agree with.

However, I don't trust him as far as I can kick him. He had proved to me that he will always overreact to every situation, and suggest solutions that he is incapable of executing himself. It's perfectly within his right to attempt to get companies to pick up the tab for his ideals, but it's not alright to then stick a knife between their shoulders at every opportunity. Ask the KDE project how much they appreciate his ideals. Also notice how far along the QT replacement project has gotten. Interesting, isn't it?

Re:Get off your horse (2, Insightful)

node 3 (115640) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547760)

However, I don't trust him as far as I can kick him. He had proved to me that he will always overreact to every situation, and suggest solutions that he is incapable of executing himself.

You *can't* be serious! Stallman has been one of the most reliable people in the computer industry. You can *always* be sure which side of the argument he'll be on--even if it's not always your side.

Personally, while I hold software freedom (in the FSF sense) as a value, I don't hold it as the ultimate value. In that sense, I don't find myself, in practice, always siding with Stallman, but it's absurd to say you can't trust him.

Re:Get off your horse (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547763)

Also notice how far along the QT replacement project has gotten. Interesting, isn't it?

Yes, fascinating, it prompted Trolltech to release QT under the GPL. One 100% free QT. Total success.

Re:The concessions (4, Insightful)

squiggleslash (241428) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547580)

*shrug* The concern Stallman had was that OOo wouldn't be compatable with (real and hypothetical) Free Java implementations, a legitimate concern given the difficulty of restricting one's self to an "official" API. Sun themselves had the same problem when Microsoft came out with their own Java implementation, they were extremely concerned that people would create programs that would only run under Microsoft's JVM.

They actually sued Microsoft over it. I don't know if you remember.

You may feel that the good-practice inspired guidelines are stuff the OOo team would have done anyway, and that's well and good, but as nobody was sure that was actually what would have happened, it was worth the FSF talking to the OOo people to make sure.

I await the news about Linus rewriting Linux in Sun's Java. Now, that'll be some flamewar, as you'll get all the "If an obscure proprietary method happens to be best for the job, Linus is absolutely right to use it and make the entire Linux kernel dependent on it!" apologists flaming those who do not consider wearing someone else's handcuffs "practical".

Re:The concessions (2, Informative)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547717)

The concern Stallman had was that OOo wouldn't be compatable with (real and hypothetical) Free Java implementations, a legitimate concern given the difficulty of restricting one's self to an "official" API.

Go program Java for a little while. The "hidden" APIs are not a necessary evil, or in any way desirable to use. The very design of the Java platform is so open that those APIs are almost impossible and completely unncessary to use. Pretty much all examples of this usage comes from the 1.1 days when a few APIs had yet to mature. Foolish developers went off and decompiled Java code to find "extra" features like they could in Microsoft software. Thus any occurances in OOo probably stem from StarDivision's work way back when.

Re:The concessions (2, Insightful)

Richard_at_work (517087) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547813)

*shrug* The concern Stallman had was that OOo wouldn't be compatable with (real and hypothetical) Free Java implementations, a legitimate concern given the difficulty of restricting one's self to an "official" API.

I find it amusing that RMS is looking to ensure that a project will be compatable with 'Free' version of a language that was created, developed, fostered and made acceptable by a closed source company. Why isnt he promoting the use of a fully 'Free' language, like Python or similiar (no, Im not a python developer) and then he would have no worries about a controlling company damaging opensource projects in anyway.

Re:The concessions (4, Insightful)

Soko (17987) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547610)

The truth is that Sun has bent over backwards for the OSS community, and all they get for their troubles are painful stabs in the back.

*Sigh*

This is not about whether Sun is a benevolent company or not, or if Java is a good solution or not.

Is Java nice? Yup. Is it the right tool for the job? Obviously.

Are most of the people at Sun trying to be a good OSS citizens? You betcha.

Is Java Free Software? Nope. Not yet, it isn't.

That's where all of the problems stem from.

What if Sun suddenly did turn malevolent (Schwartz - one of the loud mouths - is no fan of the GPL, after all) could they do real damage? Yup.

If a malevolent entity bought Sun - with a depressed Sun stock, it's a real possibility - could that entity do damage? Oh boy, you bet.

It's not stabbing Sun in the back - it's protecting the backs of OSS developers and users now and in the future.

Soko

Re:The concessions (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547801)


What if Sun suddenly did turn malevolent (Schwartz - one of the loud mouths - is no fan of the GPL, after all) could they do real damage? Yup.

If a malevolent entity bought Sun - with a depressed Sun stock, it's a real possibility - could that entity do damage? Oh boy, you bet.


Bzzzzzzzt. Wrong, but thanks for trying.

You missed that IBM has made Java and Linux the core of their strategic play.

Sun can't take Java away (not even Java on Linux). If they tried, IBM would have it tied up in court 'till long after we are all dust.

The only way someone could "do real damage" would be if Sun, IBM and all the other major Java licencees got together and agreed to make damage.

It isn't going to happen. To say otherwise is simple FUD.

Re:The concessions (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547828)

IBM has alot more money than YOU.

Re:The concessions (1, Insightful)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547819)

Is Java Free Software? Nope. Not yet, it isn't.

Would you like to explain to me WHY THIS IS SUN'S PROBLEM? They have given everything away except for the actual rights to Java itself. If the GNU Foundation can't produce an Open JVM based on open specs and fully available source code, THAT IS THEIR PROBLEM.

If a malevolent entity bought Sun - with a depressed Sun stock, it's a real possibility - could that entity do damage? Oh boy, you bet.

If a malevolent entity hit Linus with a bus and acquired his Linux trademarks, and with the number of evil people out there it's a real possibility, could that entity do damange? Oh boy, you bet!

Come off this nonsense people. Sun is not losing money hand over fist (they're more or less breaking even right now), and they've made it perfectly possible for others to replicate their technology. Why is the OSS community blaming their failure to do so on Sun?

The Cough (1)

SuperKendall (25149) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547872)


*Sigh*

Is Java Free Software? Nope. Not yet, it isn't.


*Cough*

Excuse me, but Java IS Free. That is, GCJ and the Classpath version. That is Java, and it's Free. It's hard to put it any more plainly, when the whole artcle was about making sure OOo used Free Java!!!

The Sun VM is not Free. But the Sun JVM is not Java. It's an instance of it.

I never even understood why this was such a big deal when the solution outlined in the story was the obvious way forward - make sure OOo works with GCJ. Problem solved and much easier that re-wrting HSQLDB in some other languge.

Re:The concessions (4, Insightful)

node 3 (115640) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547616)

This is the only concession I see being made.

Prior to this "agreement", all the rest of the terms you dismiss were not certain, the OOo team could have violated them for practical reasons at any time. Now that'll be much more unlikely. The FSF is being quite rational in criticizing the inclusion of Java code into the OOo project. The OOo team has agreed to not fall into the potential traps that the FSF fears. This is, on the whole, a very good thing.

The amusing part about this is that the whole tirade against Java in OOo is nothing but a farce.

In your clearly anti-FSF biased opinion, perhaps. You're not an idealist, but a pragmatist, OK, no big deal. But you'd have to be one hell of a cynic as well, to call it a "farce".

The truth is that Sun has bent over backwards for the OSS community

Prefacing the statement with "the truth is" doesn't make it true. What has Sun done that constitutes "bending over backwards"? In the OSS community, "bending over backwards" tends to mean making your code open source.

Despite all the nonsense about "contamination", has anyone EVER had Sun sue them?

Does the name "Microsoft" ring a bell?

BTW, Mr. Stallman. How's Hurd coming along?

What's that got to do with Java and OOo? Or is it just an ad hominem? I don't know who you are, but it's a good bet that Stallman has done more to make my life better than you ever will. A cheap shot won't change that, either.

Re:The concessions (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547714)

This faux-Usenet quote-and-nitpick posting style is SO ANNOYING.

Re:The concessions (0, Troll)

synthespian (563437) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547672)

Would CmdrTaco and the /. crew please create a "Java fanboy" option in the moderator drop-down menu?

Java on leenucks (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547369)

Hello. Just a quick question. Coold someone please tell me a link on how to install java on Leenucks?

Thanks

Re:Java on leenucks (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547410)

If you're a user, there's a link on http://www.java.com [java.com] . If you're a developer, use the J2SE 5.0 links on http://java.sun.com [sun.com] .

Re:Java on leenucks (1)

FidelCatsro (861135) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547467)

ask him politly and then ram a flopyy where the sun dont shine..
seriously though.

Its dependant on your distro , if you use an rpm based distro then go to the sun site and download the RPM /use the self extracting installer,Or use Blackdown or simmilar open source VM implementations if you a GNU hardliner

If you have a debian based distro then you could try with the self extracting installer or use blackdown which i belive is in many many repositorys.

Re:Java on leenucks (1)

greed (112493) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547765)

Blackdown is open source? Really? Wow, I can't find a single link to the source on their website. And Kaffe is really not up to snuff for arbitrary code.

We've got a source-available proprietary 3rd party library in our code. It's a C++ program. No big deal.

It's just their equivelent of ./configure is written in Java. So, I've spent a big chunk of my time on the Linux on PowerPC port (to an RPM-based distribution, of course--Red Hat Enterprise Linux) in hunting down a JVM that is compatible with both the stupid configure program and the Linux distro in use.

So, even without being a GNU hardliner, the proprietary nature of Java is extremely frustrating--especially when the product you're working with doesn't even use Java once you get the damn thing built.

Re:Java on leenucks (1)

FidelCatsro (861135) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547891)

I was persuaded blackdowns jvm was gnu , perhaps i picked up the wrong end of the stick somewhere.
http://rpmseek.com/rpm-pl/j2se1.4-blackdown-source .html?hl=com&cbn=0:J:0:: [rpmseek.com]
there seems to be a source rpm for it .
i cant see it on the site itself , perhaps i am confusing two things though
I appoligise for any disinformation if i was mistaken .

HOWTO: Install Java On Linux In 5 Easy Steps (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547488)

1. Install Windows.
2. Download the Java installer from www.java.com.
3. Run the Java installer.
4. Shove greased-up Yoda doll in ass (optional, but highly recommended).
5. Reboot.

HOWTO: Install Java On Linux In 5 Easy Steps (0)

SirTalon42 (751509) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547712)

1. Download the Java installer from www.java.com
2. Run the Java installer. (aka ???)
3. Profit!!!

The three step plan always works!

Re:HOWTO: Install Java On Linux In 5 Easy Steps (1)

punkrockguy318 (808639) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547808)

5 steps?

Oh, well. Thank God for that. (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547376)

The world was on pins and needles over this one. How could we have FSF and OOo not in agreement. The anarchy. The humanity. The stupidity!

Re:Oh, well. Thank God for that. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547437)

Hey, this is the Slashdot equivilent of the Cuban Missile Crisis. (FSF is Cuba and Stallman is Khrushchev, by the way. OO is the US, the only levelheaded group in the whole deal.)

Re:Oh, well. Thank God for that. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547514)

How dare you blaspheme the gnuldenYack, god of all you think.

You shall surely burn in the pits of some Orwellian pit of doom for saying such things on /.

Huh? (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547378)

"Points out his Newsforge about a something good..." Is this a quote from Zero Wing?

JavaTrap? (0)

Creepy Crawler (680178) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547404)

Last I checked, there were a few Java "compilers" out there that could run a Java package. And the language IS open for anyone if they bought a 6-pack of Indians to recode it GPL.

Too bad they dont use something like TCL-TK or Ruby... but I kow why that is. There's a hell-uva lot of programs and libraries to use for free(as in gpl'ed).

Java's free (As in beer) and GPL'ed java programs are free (as in talking drunk ;) . Best of both worlds to me.

Re:JavaTrap? (4, Informative)

AKAImBatman (238306) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547477)

Too bad they dont use something like TCL-TK or Ruby... but I kow why that is. There's a hell-uva lot of programs and libraries to use for free(as in gpl'ed).

There's a hell of a lot more for Java. For example, there's no other platform that has as many high quality, cross platform database drivers. And for that matter, Java has quite a few free database engines (HSQL, McKoi, Derby (Cloudscape, etc.) At the end of the day, there simply isn't any other solution that's as well supported and ubiquitous as Java.

At the risk of starting a flamewar, I have to say that I'm proud to have been a vocal early adopter that helped Java reach the status it has today. It's a good language, a good platform, hosted by a good company, and supported by many. Only the original Unix platform had such a profound effect on the industry.

TAR PIT! (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547673)

The Java trap is Java itself. Once you start using it in your app, the app is mired in the Java tar pit. This mean that the app is FUCKING SLOW and has no chance of that improving.

The really sad part of all this is that Open Office without Java is already painfully FUCKING SLOW. It embarrasses me when a professional tries out Open Office for the first time. They whine and complain about the performance. I usually tell them to use MS Office or WordPerfect Office. Open Office is useless to people who use office suites professionally.

Sadly, I have spoken against Open Office on Slashdot. Which, around here, is considered heresy so my post will be moderated into hell. But, that doesn't alter the truth or change the facts. It just conceals it, here on Slashdot, rather like sweeping dust under the carpet. Sooner or later you will have to face facts...

Unbiased (4, Informative)

zoloto (586738) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547432)

It is not an easy thing to write a balanced and informing article about this issue, but Bruce Byfield suceeded in this and we all owe him our thanks for that. I think that there is a great deal of good will on both sides of this discussion and we should *all* try as hard as we can to built upon this good will. By calling each other names we can only all end up loosing. We need not always fully agree with each other, but we should try to accommodate each other as much as possible and try to stress that which we have in common.

This was also posted on the NF page.

Re:Unbiased (1)

Fade_to_Blah (555601) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547618)

Could I interest you in a granola bar?

RMS, AC Team Reach Agreement on Lunch (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547441)

In other FSF news:

---
There is something good coming out of the conflict over what Anonymous Coward will eat for lunch. A dispute between the Free Software Foundation (FSF) and Anonymous Coward (AC) over AC's decision to eat McDonald's patent-encumbered and potentially deadly "McNugget" product for lunch is over -- at least for now. The two groups have found a short-term solution, and are working together on ways to keep the dispute from happening again. "I realized that this is none of my farking business, and therefore the only 'dispute' is in my head," Stallman admitted. "I henceforth pledge to not get so uptight about what other people choose to do in their own GNU/free time."

OO and Java (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547458)

So open office is java based?

I hate java. The only virus I (and my parents, friends, etc)have gotten in the past year has been through java and oddly enough through firefox.

If OO is java based I guess I'll never switch to linux, unless MS release office for it.

Re:OO and Java (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547516)

I hate C, the only virus I have gotten in the past year has been through C.

Idiot

Re:OO and Java (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547608)

Where can I download the CVM?

Re:OO and Java (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547670)

java is POS insecure software.

You linux freaks bash MS all the time over security flaws, but just end up hypocrits in the longrun.

Let that be the end of it (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547459)

Sun never made anyone use it's undocumented classes.
It's blatantly obvious when a programmer is using them from the "import sun.xyz.abc", so flame the programmer, not Sun.

I for one would like to thank Sun for releasing a truly great product.
I can't stand social retards like Stallman.

Re:Let that be the end of it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547523)

"Sun never made anyone use it's undocumented classes."
And nobody claimed they did. Your point was?

"I can't stand social retards like Stallman."
Obviously not everyone can be blessed with the kind of social skills you present to the world with you comments.

Re:Let that be the end of it (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547583)

Sorry Richard

Re:Let that be the end of it (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547615)

"I can't stand social retards like Stallman."

He isn't a social retard, He is a communist engineer... something like the same anyway.

Re:Let that be the end of it (1, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547646)

"It's blatantly obvious when a programmer is using them from the "import sun.xyz.abc", so flame the programmer, not Sun."

and when the programmers are at sun using a sun language?

A surprisingly conciliatory attitude on both sides (2, Insightful)

Timesprout (579035) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547504)

Well why not, after the damage is done and they have made themselves look very very stupid.

Duh! (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547529)

As far as I can see the FSF (Free Software Foundation) will destroy the exact same concept they created and many of us agreed to use.

By actions like this and past concerns on some other well known software projects, developers like me will not release their software under anything related to the GPL.

I think that somebody should stop FSF. Their work isn't to complaint, their work is to give us ("developers") a legal floor to walk. As developer, the last stuff I want to worry about is license problems. License I/we decided to use in a given moment for a given product.

I think that the FSF should stop to put their nouses where nobody wants. Otherwise proprietary licenses will start to become a common factor around us.

I'll never lose this pain... (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547530)

never dream of you again.

Zealotry as a force for good (3, Interesting)

jmmcd (694117) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547544)

The interesting thing here is that Richard Stallman's zealotry/passion (delete as appropriate) had the effect of improving something: "Stallman has learned that efforts to compile OpenOffice.org using the GNU Compiler for Java (GCJ) were close to success, and has amended the call to a request for help in continuing this work."

As opposed to the type of zealotry which some people say is killing Debian.

Conflict? Only one side was whining (4, Insightful)

ishmalius (153450) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547560)

Can someone show me the complaints coming from the OpenOffice developers? I didn't see any. They seem to be doing all the work. They seem to be the ones with the conciliatory attitude. They seem to be making the changes in the interest of peace.

What concessions did the "other side" make?

Onion Breath. (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547565)

\"The story provides a decent background on why it matters, and shows a surprisingly conciliatory attitude on both sides.\"

Subtitled: When Geeks Kiss and Make UP.

Bottom line: policy (1)

synthespian (563437) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547576)

Bottom line: policy

"What we need is a way to distribute a version of OpenOffice that we can count on not to encourage people to use any non-free programs. If the developers of OpenOffice want to maintain their version with this policy, that would be ideal. Until recently I assumed that they did maintain it this way, but it appears they don't: with the current policies, any release of OpenOffice might depend on a non-free program merely because that was the fastest way to implement something. (...) We need a policy decision by the OO developers." (Stallman)

So, yeah, big mistake by OO.org developers. It remains to be seen if they even understand the point of this policy.

Because, remember, Java does not run everywhere and the JVM is proprietary, and you can't ship it freely.

Dear RMS/FSF (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547581)

Keep your fucking big nose out of it, your breath smells and you beard has rotting food in it. Go take a bath.

Wanting to help out? (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547586)

Check http://developer.classpath.org/mediation/OpenOffic e2GCJ4 [classpath.org]

Feedback wanted on how the different distributions are handling this, plus pacakge build instructions.

how will businesses respond (0, Flamebait)

b17bmbr (608864) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547601)

How will businesses respond to this squabble over what to them will appear to be two kids pissing. If we want F/OSS to gain market share, credibiltiy, and even parity, we need to put such idoelogically pure trivialities aside. I understand the need for "free" software, but if you are a firm contemplating OO.org, and you see this, what are you going to think? They will not migrate if they think they're dealing with a bunch of children.

What about StarBasic? (1)

questro (802656) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547631)

Is StarBasic not powerful enough to use for creating wizzards and dialogs? Is there more heavy lifting that really needs Java? Or is this a matter of more people know how to code in Java vs. StarBasic?

double standards (3, Funny)

Doc Ruby (173196) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547675)

I'm shocked that Stallman allows GNU software to run on patented microprocessors and copyrighted, proprietary BIOS'es, without declaring jihad.

Re:double standards (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547710)

That's one of the best piece of GNU/Trolling I have seen in a long time. Keep up the good work!

Re:double standards (2, Interesting)

kebes (861706) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547836)

Your post may be intended as a joke, but Stallman is indeed pushing for free BIOS'es. [slashdot.org] He probably supports open designs for devices too. He certainly supports well-documented interfaces for all hardware. If you read Stallman's writings, it's clear that he identifies a difference between physical objects and ideas. Physical objects (including hardware) will always have costs associated with production, which is quite different from the comparatively effortless reproduction and distribution of software/ideas. His viewpoint is certainly extreme, but not inconsistent.

FSF... (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547689)

taking the FREE(dom) out of FOSS.

Seriously, developers should have the freedom to choose the tools they use.

The issues are good to air (3, Insightful)

syntap (242090) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547707)

Many in the OSS community believe in soup-to-nuts software freedom, i.e. not only should the source to an app be open, but dependencies shouldn't exist on non-open software or libraries.

The proposal to use GCJ was a good one, and I think raising these issues benefits open source even though it exposes the frictions between the players in the movement.

Spoiler (1)

Spy der Mann (805235) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547713)

They're forking the code so it can be compiled with CGJ (GNU compiler for java).

Ta-da.

It's not over until there's an open distro (4, Interesting)

Animats (122034) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547729)

This controversy won't be over until there's an OpenOffice distribution avaialble that requires no proprietary code whatsoever.

The reason this is so important is that if all the source is openly available, nobody can make it go away. It's essential to avoid "drug dealer marketing" - the first one is free, but then it's going to cost you. There have been too many products that started out "open", and then started to cost money once they had users locked in.

The typical progression for psuedo-free software is

  • The product is free for download. A user community emerges.
  • A new version comes out, with modest restrictions and price, and the free version is deprecated.
  • The free version disappears.
  • The price goes up, and copy protection is added.
  • Market share declines.

Examples are Intellicad [intellicad.com] , Sendmail [sendmail.com] , and QNX [qnx.com]

Nice that they decided to listen to their customer (2, Insightful)

nietsch (112711) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547743)

Given some of the hostility to the larger community within OpenOffice.org, as well as Stallman's determination, deciding on the solutions and implementing them could still create problems. For now, though, at least the two sides are talking and trying to cooperate -- and free software advocates will get a version of OpenOffice.org they can install without pangs of conscience.


Nice article, until he makes it sound like having priciples is a bad thing. The issue with FSF is not one of "conscience" but of licenses that can/will be an impedient of free use of the software. This goes beyond conscience and ventures into the realm of property rights that typically can deny others of free use. That is why Stallman in the past warned of the issue of using Sun Java.

I think OOo need to look at FSF as representing customers that have a particular demand and accomodate that demand. All too often critics misuse the word "conscience" to disparage FSF community (customers) demands.

This is simple "marketing 101" -- listen to the demands of your customers

Re:Nice that they decided to listen to their custo (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547837)

A customer is one who buys goods or services. Does FSF buy anything? No, they expect things FREE!

If they don't like something, then they should go use Koffice, abiword, or some other office program.

Portable OpenOffice and Java (3, Interesting)

CritterNYC (190163) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547778)

Personally, I was more than a bit disheartened when I first found out about how much of OOo 2.0 required Java. While Portable OpenOffice 1.1.4 [johnhaller.com] worked quite well on machines without Sun's JRE installed, I was rather worried how Portable OpenOffice 2.0 would fare (just compiled a test alpha using the latest UPX beta, etc). If they split out a version that didn't require Java installed, I'd probably base Portable OpenOffice on that instead.

Pamela Jones EXPOSED (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547848)

Exclusive: Who Is 'PJ' Pamela Jones of Groklaw.Net?

Pamela Is A 61-Year-Old Jehovah's Witness Who Lives In A Shabby Genteel Garden Apartment In Hartsdale, New York

By: Maureen O'Gara
May 7, 2005 09:15 PM

A few weeks ago I went looking for the elusive harridan who supposedly writes the Groklaw blog about the SCO v IBM suit.

The now-famous opinion-shaping open source leader Pamela Jones, aka "PJ," doesn't give conventional face-to-face interviews. Never has, near as anyone knows. All communication is virtual. Only one person in the world has ever claimed to have met her - in the pressroom at LinuxWorld in Boston complete with a Pamela Jones badge - and described her as a fortyish reddish-blonde who giggled a lot.

[Photo: May 7, 2005 12:37 PM - 304 North Central Avenue, Hartsdale, New York. The last known address of Pamela Jones, as the superintendent of the building calls it, Ms. Pam Jones.]

Oh yeah? Wonder what cold crème she uses.

Pamela Jones is a 61-year-old Jehovah's Witness who lives in a shabby genteel garden apartment in desperate need of an interior decorator on a heavily trafficked commercial road at 304 North Central Avenue in Hartsdale, New York. Hartsdale is in Westchester and Westchester is IBM territory.

See, even though Groklaw treats cell phones like they were Kleenex and changes its unpublished numbers regularly, one number it left with a journalist led to this flat and - wouldn't you know it but - some calls from there had been placed to the courts in Utah and to the Canopy Group so obviously this just isn't any Pamela Jones.

Pamela has lived in apartment 1A for 10 years at least, according to the super, who says he's watched people move in, have children, and the children marry and move away.

Now, this isn't your usual anonymous New York apartment. It's practically a self-contained village where the super goes for the old ladies' groceries when there's snow on the ground and people know each other's business.

[Photo: May 7, 2005 12:41 PM - 304 North Central Avenue, Hartsdale, New York. The last known address of Pamela Jones.]

But the super didn't know much about Pamela except that she had a computer, worked at home (maybe sometimes) for a lawyer, was "paranoid" - his word - and "sensitive to smells."

He remembered how he was cleaning paintbrushes one day and she came running down the stairs screaming "Fire."

She was also missing and had been for weeks.

Nobody there knew where she was.

She had up and disappeared one day, and the super was worried about her. He said her son had dropped by and he didn't know where she was, and that some strange man that "nobody knew," as the super described him, had tried to get into her apartment while she was gone - the Medeco lock she had had installed on her door - something nobody else in the complex seemed to feel a need for - was more expensive than the door. But, as it happened, the super said, she had just sent in her rent in an envelope postmarked Connecticut.

Like an episode out of "Where in the World is Carmen San Diego," the trail led to 10 Bittersweet Trail in Norwalk, Connecticut, 24 miles away. Sure enough, parked in the driveway was Pamela's car, just as the super had described it, a dark gray '90s Japanese number with a bunch of Jehovah Witness pamphlets tossed on the backseat.

The woman at the house, Barbara Jones Sharnik, told a disjointed story. She didn't know Pamela, Pamela hated her, Pamela wasn't there, Pamela left her car there because it got bumped, Pamela left her car there because she left town, and so on.

Afterwards Barbara called the cops, and then the cops called the number we left with her and the cops said that she was Pamela's mother and that Pamela was on the run and had shacked up with her mother because she had gotten "threatening mail" weeks before and that she had just gotten spooked again because "people were getting hurt around [my] stories" and had lighted out for Canada.

[Photo: May 7, 2005 2:24 PM - 10 Bittersweet Trail in Norwalk, Connecticut. Mom's house, where PJ's car was last seen on this driveway.]

Odd, the subject of my stories - or any stories - never came up during our brief interview. I was just looking for Pamela.

That left Pamela's son, Nicolas Richards, who, as it happens, had been in the software business in Manhattan until - why, my goodness - things seem to have come a cropper right around the time Groklaw came into existence.

Nick and his ma were apparently involved together in Medabiliti Inc, an ISV, because one Pamela Jones with a Westchester phone number (914 761-7423) and a Medabiliti e-mail (pjones@medabiliti.com) was down as the director of public affairs on a Medabiliti press release dated April 14, 2003.

Nick, as it happens, has written under his own byline on a Groklaw sister site, GrokDoc, giving advice on technical writing. Nick and his wife Andrea live in fancier digs than his ma on East 76th Street off First Avenue, a neighborhood where apartments go for a couple of million bucks.

Now, according to one of Pamela's neighbors and fellow Jehovah's Witness, being a Jehovah's Witness is pretty much a full-time job in and of itself. Witnesses also don't usually get involved in worldly affairs.

So, is this story-spooked 61-year-old Jehovah's Witness with religious tracts in her backseat also the 90-hour-a-week writer of the voluminous PJ diatribes or is she a victim of identity theft?

TO BE CONTINUED...

Crap like this... (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 9 years ago | (#12547874)

...is why I use AbiWord and Gnumeric.

Doesn't the FSF seem a bit demanding? (4, Insightful)

Theovon (109752) | more than 9 years ago | (#12547894)

It's interesting that OOo has become so influential that the FSF has decided to poke their noses into it. I for one think that making OOo's java code work with GCJ is a great idea and makes it easier on those of us who don't want to have to download Sun's VM. But I also find it a big disturbing that the FSF has the gall to make demands on projects they don't own.
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